5000 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Dear Mike and howard,
Thanks for telling us your feelings to date, Howard. I too don't
limit myself to Abhidhamma. There are a lot of teachings in the
Tipitaka and it is good to take a balanced approach.
 
I'll just comment on mikes post:
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> 
> 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood
> about the Dhamma is completely wrong.

I don't think so Mike. There may`have been some important
misunderstandings but not everything.


> 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> enlightenment.  

 there are  other types of kusala kamma that are not directly
part of the eightfold path.



> 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> certain authors).

Not exactly. You say passively but what about viriya(energy).
Viriya arises to listen , to contemplate, to be patient, to be
aware. It is not "our" viriya though. The hearing must be
applied. Even at times when there is no Buddhasasana (and thus
no deep teaching leading to enligtenment) there can be the
accumulation of other parami - patience, generosity, metta.....
These all support panna. They are needed too.

  
> 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> impossible because of anatta and anicca.


> 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.

What about ariyadukkha -sacca (truth of suffering) and
samudaya-sacca (truth of cause of suffering). these are present 
whether one knows of them or not.

> 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or
> incomprehensible.
Effort is either kusala or akusala. there may be kusala effort
arising now that assists the other mental factors that are
contemplating this. When there is a moment of sati that knows
(even in a vague way) dhammas there is kusala viriya. It may be
hard to know whether the viriya is kusala or akusala though.




> 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> referring to them are obsolete.
 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until
> total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the
> Eightfold Path.

We can do many types of kusala and still have an idea of self.
This has to be carefully explained.



> 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except
> by ariyans.  Any idea that I can understand any
> exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto
> akusala and micchaditthi.

I think there are different levels of understanding. We can't
expect to have no idea of self at all from the word GO. But
hearing the Dhamma and seeing just how much self there is means
that the idea of self is seen as a type of clinging. 


> 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> akusala and micchaditthi.
11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the
> idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala
> and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.

No. It is so gradual. It is more of a mixed bag. There may be
some awareness now of dhammas even if they are not clearly
perceived as nama or rupa. 

Robert




 
5001 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:38am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cessation

 
  The very last section of the Visuddhimagga goes into this Erik.
I asked nina similar questions many years back. There is a type
of cessation that only those arahants and anagami who have
mastery of jhana and whose path was that of samatha and insight
(not sukkavipassaka) can attain. 
--- Erik wrote:
> 
> Okay, here's an issue I've been somewhat onclear on for some
> time 
> now. Cessation. Not nirodha as in kilesa-nirodha, but
> "cessation" as 
> applies to anagamis who have arrived there via negating the
> fourth 
> arupa-jahana as for example found in the Cula Sunnata Sutta.
> 
> Is this "cessation" (other than the physiological activity of
> being 
> in "suspended animation") synonymous with the actual realizion
> of 
> nibbana? If this is the case it seems this would be through
> phala 
> cittas; there would be no magga-cittas associated with this.
> Is this 
> correct? If this is so then there would seem to be no
> advantage to 
> cessation, given the phala cittas don't terminate kilesas.

No BIG advantage as you say. But a damm good rest! They say that
giving dana to one who has just arisen from this bears very high
fruit.

> 
> Because of this, I am curious what the stated purpose of
> teachings 
> on "cessation" are. It is inessential to liberation from my 
> understanding, and the only argument I can see for it at
> present is 
> that it is, like the jhanas, taught by the Buddha because it
> is 
> conducive to well-being here and now (though jhanas are also 
> necessary in the case of non-sukkhavipassaka practitioners). 

Completeness of teaching. There were those who had the
accumulations to attain this and so it should be taught. Not so
important for us to think much about it.

I
> 
> suppose one could use it to make money pulling stunts like
> getting 
> buried alive for a few weeks and living to tell about it.
> 
> That reminds me, is there an equivalent term for
> sukkhavipassakas for 
> jhana practitioners? I have seen these two approaches rendered
> as 
> vipassana-yanika and samatha-yanika, but I have also seen the
> use of 
> these two terms challenged on the basis of their not really 
> reflecting the way things are, given vipassana is a necessary
> in all 
> cases.

The term you use is correct and I think there is another term
too. 
robert


 
5002 From: Num 
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 6:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi Mike,

Sound like you are given up.  At time I felt like that as well.  Hope you 
don't mind if I try to say something, just want to cheer you up.  Come on, I 
am still floating in the big ocean, see no sign of land around, just want to 
say that "keep swimming."  Our minds can trick us, if we give up, for sure we 
will be floating up and down in samsara ocean forever.  

I will be a little tricky in this reply, OK.


> 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood
> about the Dhamma is completely wrong.

This may be a right understanding. Right understanding can see the difference 
between what is right and what is wrong.

> 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> enlightenment.  
> 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> certain authors).  
> 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> impossible because of anatta and anicca.
> 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.



> 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or
> incomprehensible.

I total disagree with this, the trip around the world always starts with 
first footstep. Viriya is itti (power), never underestimate power of viriya. 
The Buddha never said that the path is a easy path. It's the path that is 
less taken, most people enjoy other paths.  But the path is exist, it needs a 
traveler to complete the task though.

> 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> referring to them are obsolete.



> 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until
> total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the
> Eightfold Path.

Even akusula can be paccaya or condition following kusula.  Nobody born with 
purely kusula life or enlightenment.  I think we need to know both kusula and 
akusula to develop right understanding.

> 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except
> by ariyans.  Any idea that I can understand any
> exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> akusala and micchaditthi.

This is impossible, I could not imagine to see a person with only akusula 
citta or vipaka. Hmmm, I don't think so. I might be wrong, both kusula and 
akusula are arised and ceased by causes and conditions.

> 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the
> idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala
> and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.



> 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a
> delusion.  There is no path to the cessation of
> suffering except for those on its very threshold.
> 

Again, I personally believe there is the path. I am not sure that there is a 
traveler who dares to take it.


Look around, you will not feel lonely. There are a lot of swimmers, at least 
on this list.


Num





5004 From: Herman 
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Dear Mike,

(Sorry Howard, I am using your post to reply to Mike, can't find the 
original)

The light is in your self.
The truth is in your self.
The Dhamma is in your self.


It's nice to have cyber buddies but I never accept directions from 
someone who is pointing me down their own path. They don't understand 
yet ......


With lovingkindness
(Don't you think the English has a ring to it:-)


Herman


--- Howard wrote:
> Dear Mike -
> 
>        My heart really goes out to you. I have no doubt that that 
you are 
> quite mistaken and that you have NOT wasted thirty years. For some 
reason, 
> you have been driven to what I see as extreme conclusions. Please 
remember 
> that the Buddha's path is a *middle* path. Please don't take the 
view that 
> progress must either be total or nil. You CAN get there from here! 
With the 
> right, fortunate experiences, it is possible to gain GREAT 
confidence. With 
> appropriate samatha training, it IS possible to reach jhanic 
states. (I KNOW 
> this for a fact.) With appropriate vipassana training, it IS 
possible to 
> glimpse the unreality of self in the person and in "things" and to 
gain 
> enormous confidence in the Buddha's way. (I know THAT for a fact as 
well.) 
> Please don't despair. There is really so much of value here - so 
much that 
> really IS possible. Try sometime a Goenka retreat - I found that 
that gave me 
> enormous confidence in the Dhamma. I only went to one, but it was 
wonderful.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> In a message dated 4/27/01 1:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> "m. nease" writes:
> 
> 
> > Dear Howard,
> > 
> > You're so much better informed than I am, and so much
> > better-spoken.  My heart really goes out to you with
> > this post, and it inspires me to post several
> > tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions I've
> > painfully and gradually come to myself.  I hope you
> > don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more
> > thoughtful post.
> > 
> > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood
> > about the Dhamma is completely wrong.
> > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> > enlightenment.  
> > 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> > passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> > certain authors).  
> > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> > impossible because of anatta and anicca.
> > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.
> > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or
> > incomprehensible.
> > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> > referring to them are obsolete.
> > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until
> > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the
> > Eightfold Path.
> > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except
> > by ariyans.  Any idea that I can understand any
> > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto
> > akusala and micchaditthi.
> > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> > akusala and micchaditthi.
> > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the
> > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala
> > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.
> > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a
> > delusion.  There is no path to the cessation of
> > suffering except for those on its very threshold.
> > 
> > Sorry these aren't better organized.  Just a few
> > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time,
> > off the top of my head.
> > 
> > mike
> > 

 
 
5005 From: J.L. 
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 6:27pm
Subject: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  Mr Amara
Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong 
group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I 
hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I 
dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what on 
earth is going on 
with Metta
J.L. 
PS
I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to 
Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these 
chappies so Bad

--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> > Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on Dhamma-
> > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not 
> 
> classify 
> > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters 
Dhamma 
> > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long 
time 
> > now I have been using the views from some of  your/our Greatest 
Thai 
> > Forest Buddhist Masters.
> 
> Dear Marlon,
> 
> I have never studied any other teachings but those of the Tipitaka, 
> and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not they are not mine 
if 
> they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in any way.
> 
> > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe 
> > because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They 
spent a 
> > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in 
> > understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the 
Buddha 
> > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure 
> > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own renditions 
of 
> > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences 
> which 
> > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before 
someone 
> > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth.
> 
> The Buddha did not live in the forest all the time, he lived in 
> mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself photographs of in 
> your website, in the vicinity of the great cities where he taught 
> kings and princes as well as leprous beggars.  He did it was true 
that 
> he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his main purpose was, 
after 
> his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very well teach where 
> there are no people.  He spent most of the time, as one sees in the 
> Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting alms and 
teaching, 
> not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude as some people 
> might have us think.  Those who do that and claim to have led the 
> Buddha's life and experienced the same thing should indeed study 
the 
> Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their mouth they would 
> know it instead of thinking others do without realizing the truth 
in 
> the Tipitaka.
> 
> People who think they experience what the Buddha did without 
knowing 
> what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he 
> taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys I 
> saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people 
moving 
>  S_L_O_W_L_L_Y  in silence and start to do the same.  I suppose 
they 
> gain the same insight.  
> 
> On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta and cetasika, that 
> panna or right understanding of things as they really are is the 
only 
> thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root of all kilesa, 
and 
> that panna like all other things except nibbana has to be 
conditioned 
> to arise, and how to condition panna with satipatthana, one could 
live 
> anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to the heavenly 
planes 
> to teach.  One could be a king and attain high levels of wisdom, or 
be 
> a slave and do the same.  One does not have to become a forest monk 
> and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha discounting what he 
did 
> after he became enlightened.  Indeed those who imitated the wrong 
> parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme before his attainment 
> would be doing something he forbade others to do as futile exercise.
> 
> > Your quote:---
> > "".  I know that I am the reason why I have
> > not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would be
> > able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level.  Panna would
> > then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there is
> > 'commitment that is required' of us or not.  To 'want' to do 
> something
> > without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, 
rather
> > the opposite.  I don't know if it is to return home, but taking 
> refuge
> > in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone 
taking a
> > long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes and 
> 'bon
> > voyage'!-----Amara
> > 
> > My Reply to you:---
> > Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches 
fundamental 
> > Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to 
seek 
> > Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come to 
> you 
> > all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are 
different. 
> > Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment 
will 
> > allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult 
to 
> > accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, 
data 
> > too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant 
it 
> > in a totally different context. 
> 
> I do not expect anyone to accept anything, there are zillions of 
> beings who are not Buddhists.  But this is what the Buddha taught 
in 
> the Tipitaka, if anyone cared to study it.  The sukkhavipassaka 
attain 
> nibbana through panna alone and not through jhana.  If you do not 
> believe the Tipitaka that is your problem, you and your forest 
> dwellers could perhaps start a new religion, perhaps the forest 
> dwelling sect or something.  Actually a lot of the bhikkhus in the 
> Buddha's time were forest dwellers, but they had the accumulations 
> which, after the basics have been learnt, could develop 
satipatthana 
> along with other kusala.  Nowadays people make a big thing about 
such 
> life which was common back then, besides the fact that there are 
fewer 
> forests now.  And most could not tell when they are attached to the 
> subtle lobha for sitting and expecting unusual things to happen 
which 
> they immediately cling to as something good ordinary people don't 
get 
> to see.  But is there any real knowledge of things as they really 
are 
> at that time?  Of sight as sight, of seeing as seeing, of sound as 
> sound, not color, of hearing at that moment?  Is there knowledge of 
> nama as nama or rupa as rupa?  After that can they tell without 
> uncertainty what is the manodvara like?  If not, others than 
> experiencing some strange and ultimately useless things, and even 
> harmful ones if one clings to it and develop even more lobha 
without 
> being conscious of it, what knowledge is gained in the least?  What 
> kusala citta?
> 
> Those who developed jhana in the old days before the Buddha taught 
> them how to do it with vipassana, at least knew what kusala citta 
were 
> and how to develop it.  Nowadays just about anyone can imitate the 
> gestures and postures, but few could attain the same panna even if 
> only at the jhana level.  I don't care what a person says, if he 
> doesn't agree with the Tipitaka, or who he is or was, after all, 
> Devadata who was perhaps foremost in wrong view, was also a bhikkhu 
in 
> the Buddhist order, as I said in a previous post.
> 
> Amara
> 
> > Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey 
home 
> to 
> > the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'"
> > "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of 
> > Nirvana had this to say? 
> > ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is 
> difficult 
> > to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only 
> > suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana 
is 
> > beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. Thus 
> > Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no 
boundary, 
> > no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- 
Ven 
> S 
> > Dhammika

 
5006 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 6:48pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > I'm quite impressed with 
> > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree with 
> your 
> > methods of acquisition.
> 
> I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. 
> Comparing systems, for example?


Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain a 
kind of musavada.

 
5007 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:04pm
Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  --- J.L. wrote:
> Mr Amara
> Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong 
> group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I 
> hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I 
> dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what on 
> earth is going on 
> with Metta
> J.L. 
> PS
> I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to 
> Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these 
> chappies so Bad


Johnluke,

If you're here to discuss the dhamma, you're in the right place.  I am 
not a Buddhisht monk, and I do not represent this group.  The list 
owners and moderators are not responsible for my posts which are my 
views alone.  The post you have below was in answer to someone else's 
post which you might have agreed with, which is your prerogative, as 
it is mine to disagree, and yours not to agree with me.  There is no 
rule here that we should all agree.  

I have the highest respect for monks who teach the dhamma and practice 
it.  But there are also monks who do neither, so I do discriminate.  I 
believe the heart of the Buddha's teachings is panna or right 
understanding, and forest or city monks who teach or accumulate that 
have my highest respect.

What are you learning about Buddhism, may I ask, as one student to 
another?

Anumodana to all those who study,

Amara 


> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 
> > > Contarary to what you feel about all my past statements on 
Dhamma-
> > > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up views. I do not 
> > 
> > classify 
> > > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to the masters 
> Dhamma 
> > > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest potential. For a long 
> time 
> > > now I have been using the views from some of  your/our Greatest 
> Thai 
> > > Forest Buddhist Masters.
> > 
> > Dear Marlon,
> > 
> > I have never studied any other teachings but those of the 
Tipitaka, 
> > and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not they are not mine 
> if 
> > they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in any way.
> > 
> > > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe 
> > > because most of you find them not worthy to be studied. They 
> spent a 
> > > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they succeeded in 
> > > understanding it perfectly, because they had to live like the 
> Buddha 
> > > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not like some pleasure 
> > > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out their own 
renditions 
> of 
> > > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their own experiences 
> > which 
> > > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record straight before 
> someone 
> > > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth.
> > 
> > The Buddha did not live in the forest all the time, he lived in 
> > mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself photographs of in 
> > your website, in the vicinity of the great cities where he taught 
> > kings and princes as well as leprous beggars.  He did it was true 
> that 
> > he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his main purpose was, 
> after 
> > his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very well teach where 
> > there are no people.  He spent most of the time, as one sees in 
the 
> > Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting alms and 
> teaching, 
> > not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude as some people 
> > might have us think.  Those who do that and claim to have led the 
> > Buddha's life and experienced the same thing should indeed study 
> the 
> > Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their mouth they 
would 
> > know it instead of thinking others do without realizing the truth 
> in 
> > the Tipitaka.
> > 
> > People who think they experience what the Buddha did without 
> knowing 
> > what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning the dhamma as he 
> > taught even through the oral tradition would be like some monkeys 
I 
> > saw near some meditation centers where they see all the people 
> moving 
> >  S_L_O_W_L_L_Y  in silence and start to do the same.  I suppose 
> they 
> > gain the same insight.  
> > 
> > On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta and cetasika, 
that 
> > panna or right understanding of things as they really are is the 
> only 
> > thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root of all kilesa, 
> and 
> > that panna like all other things except nibbana has to be 
> conditioned 
> > to arise, and how to condition panna with satipatthana, one could 
> live 
> > anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to the heavenly 
> planes 
> > to teach.  One could be a king and attain high levels of wisdom, 
or 
> be 
> > a slave and do the same.  One does not have to become a forest 
monk 
> > and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha discounting what he 
> did 
> > after he became enlightened.  Indeed those who imitated the wrong 
> > parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme before his attainment 
> > would be doing something he forbade others to do as futile 
exercise.
> > 
> > > Your quote:---
> > > "".  I know that I am the reason why I have
> > > not yet escaped samsara, but I also know that panna alone would 
be
> > > able to free me, when accumulated to a certain level.  Panna 
would
> > > then, as the Buddha taught, perform its function whether there 
is
> > > 'commitment that is required' of us or not.  To 'want' to do 
> > something
> > > without right understanding and study could never end kilesa, 
> rather
> > > the opposite.  I don't know if it is to return home, but taking 
> > refuge
> > > in his teachings is what I am most comfortable with, anyone 
> taking a
> > > long journey home to the beginning of time has my best wishes 
and 
> > 'bon
> > > voyage'!-----Amara
> > > 
> > > My Reply to you:---
> > > Pertaining to your view on "commitment". This breaches 
> fundamental 
> > > Basic Buddhist Doctrine. "Commitment" is the vehicle for you to 
> seek 
> > > Panna (wisdom). Panna is an on going process, it doesen't come 
to 
> > you 
> > > all at once, or am I to presume that in your case you are 
> different. 
> > > Your presumption that Panna (wisdom) alone without commitment 
> will 
> > > allow you to be free ( I presume you mean Nivarna) is difficult 
> to 
> > > accept as it goes against the view of a multitude of Scholars, 
> data 
> > > too numerous for me to list. Or may I presume you actually meant 
> it 
> > > in a totally different context. 
> > 
> > I do not expect anyone to accept anything, there are zillions of 
> > beings who are not Buddhists.  But this is what the Buddha taught 
> in 
> > the Tipitaka, if anyone cared to study it.  The sukkhavipassaka 
> attain 
> > nibbana through panna alone and not through jhana.  If you do not 
> > believe the Tipitaka that is your problem, you and your forest 
> > dwellers could perhaps start a new religion, perhaps the forest 
> > dwelling sect or something.  Actually a lot of the bhikkhus in the 
> > Buddha's time were forest dwellers, but they had the accumulations 
> > which, after the basics have been learnt, could develop 
> satipatthana 
> > along with other kusala.  Nowadays people make a big thing about 
> such 
> > life which was common back then, besides the fact that there are 
> fewer 
> > forests now.  And most could not tell when they are attached to 
the 
> > subtle lobha for sitting and expecting unusual things to happen 
> which 
> > they immediately cling to as something good ordinary people don't 
> get 
> > to see.  But is there any real knowledge of things as they really 
> are 
> > at that time?  Of sight as sight, of seeing as seeing, of sound as 
> > sound, not color, of hearing at that moment?  Is there knowledge 
of 
> > nama as nama or rupa as rupa?  After that can they tell without 
> > uncertainty what is the manodvara like?  If not, others than 
> > experiencing some strange and ultimately useless things, and even 
> > harmful ones if one clings to it and develop even more lobha 
> without 
> > being conscious of it, what knowledge is gained in the least?  
What 
> > kusala citta?
> > 
> > Those who developed jhana in the old days before the Buddha taught 
> > them how to do it with vipassana, at least knew what kusala citta 
> were 
> > and how to develop it.  Nowadays just about anyone can imitate the 
> > gestures and postures, but few could attain the same panna even if 
> > only at the jhana level.  I don't care what a person says, if he 
> > doesn't agree with the Tipitaka, or who he is or was, after all, 
> > Devadata who was perhaps foremost in wrong view, was also a 
bhikkhu 
> in 
> > the Buddhist order, as I said in a previous post.
> > 
> > Amara
> > 
> > > Amara,Pertaining to your quote ""anyone taking a long journey 
> home 
> > to 
> > > the beginning of time has my best wishes and 'bon voyage'"
> > > "Ven S Dhammika on being asked the question on his definition of 
> > > Nirvana had this to say? 
> > > ""It is a dimension transcending time and space and thus is 
> > difficult 
> > > to talk about or even think about. Words and thoughts being only 
> > > suited to describe the time-space dimension. But because Nirvana 
> is 
> > > beyond time, there is no movement and so no ageing or dying. 
Thus 
> > > Nirvana is eternal because it is beyond space, there is no 
> boundary, 
> > > no concept of Self and not-self and thus Nirvana is infinite.-- 
> Ven 
> > S 
> > > Dhammika

 
5008 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> --- Erik wrote:
> > --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > > I'm quite impressed with 
> > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree 
with 
> > your 
> > > methods of acquisition.
> > 
> > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. 
> > Comparing systems, for example?
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain 
a 
> kind of musavada.

Can kindly point me to a single instance where you feel I have made a 
false accusation? I find this suggestion I have spoken falsely quite 
surprising. That's a serious accusation in itself, Amara, especially 
when you accuse another Dharma practitioner. This is not something 
you want to be wrong about. I find what you've said here especially 
suprising given I haven't observed any deeds motivated through that 
particular akusala-kamma-patha in some years now.

 
5009 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > --- Erik wrote:
> > > --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > > > I'm quite impressed with 
> > > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree 
> with 
> > > your 
> > > > methods of acquisition.
> > > 
> > > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. 
> > > Comparing systems, for example?
> > 
> > 
> > Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations remain 
> a 
> > kind of musavada.
> 
> Can kindly point me to a single instance where you feel I have made 
a 
> false accusation? I find this suggestion I have spoken falsely quite 
> surprising. That's a serious accusation in itself, Amara, especially 
> when you accuse another Dharma practitioner. This is not something 
> you want to be wrong about. I find what you've said here especially 
> suprising given I haven't observed any deeds motivated through that 
> particular akusala-kamma-patha in some years now.


Anumodana, then, if it were true, which only you would know.  I would 
suggest you reread message 4102.  Of course that's past and over with, 
but as it is I am not obliged to answer any of your messages, and will 
not any further if I think it is full of false accusations, I am here 
to study the dhamma and not put up with petty bickering, so you can 
write anything you wish from now on and if I don't think it condones 
to kusala and panna I will not reply, which is my privilege.  I had 
hoped your studies could lead you to kusala and panna and it seems I 
could do nothing to help, only condition more kusala, so our 
correspondence should end here.  Whether you reply to this or not 
will have the same effect, I myself will try to accumulate more right 
understanding and kusala and I am sure you will do the same.

 
5010 From: Amara   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  > It's nice to have cyber buddies but I never accept directions from 
> someone who is pointing me down their own path. They don't 
understand 
> yet ......
> 
> 
> With lovingkindness
> (Don't you think the English has a ring to it:-)
> 
> 
> Herman


Dear Herman, 

I agree with you entirely, no one should ever be a copycat.  The only 
one whose path I would even examine the directions to is the Buddha.  
And he always taught us never to believe even his own teachings 
without careful consideration.

Amara


> --- Howard wrote:
> > Dear Mike -
> > 
> >        My heart really goes out to you. I have no doubt that that 
> you are 
> > quite mistaken and that you have NOT wasted thirty years. For some 
> reason, 
> > you have been driven to what I see as extreme conclusions. Please 
> remember 
> > that the Buddha's path is a *middle* path. Please don't take the 
> view that 
> > progress must either be total or nil. You CAN get there from here! 
> With the 
> > right, fortunate experiences, it is possible to gain GREAT 
> confidence. With 
> > appropriate samatha training, it IS possible to reach jhanic 
> states. (I KNOW 
> > this for a fact.) With appropriate vipassana training, it IS 
> possible to 
> > glimpse the unreality of self in the person and in "things" and to 
> gain 
> > enormous confidence in the Buddha's way. (I know THAT for a fact 
as 
> well.) 
> > Please don't despair. There is really so much of value here - so 
> much that 
> > really IS possible. Try sometime a Goenka retreat - I found that 
> that gave me 
> > enormous confidence in the Dhamma. I only went to one, but it was 
> wonderful.
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 
> > In a message dated 4/27/01 1:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > "m. nease" writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > Dear Howard,
> > > 
> > > You're so much better informed than I am, and so much
> > > better-spoken.  My heart really goes out to you with
> > > this post, and it inspires me to post several
> > > tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions I've
> > > painfully and gradually come to myself.  I hope you
> > > don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more
> > > thoughtful post.
> > > 
> > > 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood
> > > about the Dhamma is completely wrong.
> > > 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> > > eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> > > enlightenment.  
> > > 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> > > ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> > > hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> > > passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> > > and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> > > certain authors).  
> > > 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> > > impossible because of anatta and anicca.
> > > 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> > > Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.
> > > 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala or
> > > incomprehensible.
> > > 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> > > referring to them are obsolete.
> > > 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated until
> > > total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> > > speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> > > concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> > > akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to the
> > > Eightfold Path.
> > > 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection except
> > > by ariyans.  Any idea that I can understand any
> > > exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso facto
> > > akusala and micchaditthi.
> > > 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> > > akusala and micchaditthi.
> > > 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> > > subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by the
> > > idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily akusala
> > > and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> > > as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.
> > > 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a
> > > delusion.  There is no path to the cessation of
> > > suffering except for those on its very threshold.
> > > 
> > > Sorry these aren't better organized.  Just a few
> > > tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time,
> > > off the top of my head.
> > > 
> > > mike
> > > 

 
5011 From: craig garner   
Date: Sat Apr 28, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  To the Sangha,
                        Love wisdom ,love compasion and may compasion always
be with wisdom as siamese twins are.
                                                               best wishes
Craig

 
5012 From: <> 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 4:48am
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  There is an apparent contradiction in Narada's commentary on A.S. He 
writes, "Where there are Thina and Middha there is no viriya." In 
part, this is what I was basing my comment on. But A.S. lists viriya 
as a "fixed adjunct" that invariably arises in its assigned types of 
consciousness (viz., the akusala and kusala cittas). Apparently, this 
means that viriya arises in every kusala and akusala citta, contrary 
to what I wrote in my previous few messages. In that case, THANKS 
Sarah and Robert for straightening me out! 

This brings up an interesting question, though, about why Narada would 
write his comment. He was a wise and learned bhikkhu, and I don't 
think he would make such a silly error unless there's more to it than 
meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of A.S.) writes: "Viriya 
is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its proximate cause is 
a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to vigorous action." 
Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency just doesn't seem to 
apply to any kusala or akusala citta, in particular those with thina 
and middha. Is this because viriya means different things in different 
contexts? What is the more canonical take on "fixed adjunct"? Is this 
discussed in Dhammasangani? Or even Atthasalini?

> > In particular, [viriya] doesn't arise with thina and middha. This,
> > though, 
> > is just based on my recollection of the commentaries. I don't
> > have a 
> > citation for you, but it certainly makes sense.
> 
>  I think it has yet to be decided whether it arises with all
> akusala including thina and middha.

 
5013 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:51am
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die

 
  Erik,

What is the word for self-righteousness in Pali? I don't really want 
to know, it is a rhetorical question, designed, if possible, to 
trigger some reflection. Who , what are you in defense off? And how 
is it that this who/what you are in defense off requires this defense?
Is friend Amara any less than friend Erik?

With lovingkindness (the state of mind, not the word)

Herman


--- Erik wrote:
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > --- Erik wrote:
> > > --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > > > I'm quite impressed with 
> > > > your quest for knowledge even though at times I do not agree 
> with 
> > > your 
> > > > methods of acquisition.
> > > 
> > > I am curious which methods of acquisition you disagree with. 
> > > Comparing systems, for example?
> > 
> > 
> > Nothing wrong with comparing systems, but false accusations 
remain 
> a 
> > kind of musavada.
> 
> Can kindly point me to a single instance where you feel I have made 
a 
> false accusation? I find this suggestion I have spoken falsely 
quite 
> surprising. That's a serious accusation in itself, Amara, 
especially 
> when you accuse another Dharma practitioner. This is not something 
> you want to be wrong about. I find what you've said here especially 
> suprising given I haven't observed any deeds motivated through that 
> particular akusala-kamma-patha in some years now.

 
5014 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:00am
Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  John Luke,

You show some insight. Yes, you may indeed have joined the wrong 
group :-).

The dislike wasn't in Amara's post. It was all in yourself. The 
solution will not come from Amara. It will come from yourself, or not 
at all.

By the way, it is very unladylike to introduce yourself with a right 
hook and a swift kick to the gonads.

What did you say your name was, mate?

Herman

--- J.L. wrote:
> Mr Amara
> Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the wrong 
> group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, I 
> hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and I 
> dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what 
on 
> earth is going on 
> with Metta
> J.L. 
> PS
> I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to 
> Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these 
> chappies so Bad
> 

 
5015 From: robert 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 10:02am
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  Dear Dan,
Thanks for looking this up.Comments below.
--- Dan wrote:
> There is an apparent contradiction in Narada's commentary on A.S. 
He 
> writes, "Where there are Thina and Middha there is no viriya." In 
> part, this is what I was basing my comment on. But A.S. lists 
viriya 
> as a "fixed adjunct" that invariably arises in its assigned types 
of 
> consciousness (viz., the akusala and kusala cittas). Apparently, 
this 
> means that viriya arises in every kusala and akusala citta, 
contrary 
> to what I wrote in my previous few messages. In that case, THANKS 
> Sarah and Robert for straightening me out! 
> 
> This brings up an interesting question, though, about why Narada 
would 
> write his comment. He was a wise and learned bhikkhu, and I don't 
> think he would make such a silly error unless there's more to it 
than 
> meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of A.S.) 
writes: "Viriya 
> is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its proximate cause 
is 
> a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to vigorous 
action." 
> Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency just doesn't seem 
to 
> apply to any kusala or akusala citta, in particular those with 
thina 
> and middha. Is this because viriya means different things in 
different 
> contexts? What is the more canonical take on "fixed adjunct"? Is 
this 
> discussed in Dhammasangani? Or even Atthasalini?


I haven't looked up what it said in the Abhidhammatthasangaha so will 
just make some tentative observations based on the discussion so far.
Fixed adjunct will mean just that: that it arises will all those type 
of cittas. 
As I said earlier, in the atthasalini when they refer to viriya most 
often they are referring to viriya which accompanies kusala citta so
we get such phrases as "from its overcoming idleness it is a
controlling factor in the sense of predominace"p158. This phrase
supports the idea that it could not arise with sloth; BUT note
that it is in the chapter "MORAL(kusala) consciousness in the worlds 
of
sense" thus kusala viriya is assumed here. Perhaps Narada based his 
thoughts on these type of references. 
I have found, and you may too, that even respected scholars and 
practioners can make errors. One example, I found ledi sayadaw 
excellent on many aspects of Dhamma but later found that occasionally 
he would depart from the very ancient commentaries. I think these are 
the times when even laypeople have to investigate and consider and 
discuss difficult Dhamma themselves. It is not that we simply believe 
it if it is said by an important teacher. Acharn Sujin is famous now 
in Thailand but I notice when they have the meetings in the big hall 
that subtle questions are openly discussed by a panel, and the 
audience too has input. When it comes to very subtle points on 
practice they especially look to Sujin but on an interpretation of a 
pali term other members are often consulted. Even this is no 
guarantee.
Nor is it that even if we find a reference in the ancient commentary 
that that is the end of the matter. It has to be considered in 
relation to the Tipitaka and also to this moment.

It probably seems strange to think of feeling drowsy with energy
(viriya) present. Then again consider when sleeping and some very 
active dream is occurring - we can see that viriya is present then.
 

When we read the lists in the Dhammasaangani or abhidhammatthasangaha 
we might get the impression that say viriya is some 
fixed 'ingredient' that is just added in with other cetasikas.
However, from the Patthana -
the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that
"moments" are highly dynamic with influences from past
and present factors. And no
moment is identical with another.
It is true that such
dhammas as viriya or vedana are classified under the
same heading but the actual quality is influenced by
so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of
feeling (or viriya)is exactly the same.

When feeling drowsy viriya is likely not of the same degree as when 
one is very intent and interested in something. When viriya is an 
indriya, controlling faculty, it becomes powerful and predominant.
These are just some considerations, not the end of the matter. I am 
sure in Thailand this would have been thoroughly explained - it is 
all much easier there I find. One can meet so many knowledgeable and 
helpful friends.
robert

 
5016 From: Bill Sims 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 1:13pm
Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  Ladies and Gentleman
Something has gone dreadfully wrong here. I only sense anger and 
unskilled thoughts from everyone. The display of anger is contrary to 
Buddhist practice of Dhamma. Buddhism does not teach us to display 
anger when faced with adversity of views. How can we call ourselves 
true Buddhists when we display such outwardly unskilled behavior. We 
must all analyze our ongoing behavior for our own good and the 
furtherance of Buddhism.

Bill Sims


--- Herman wrote:
> John Luke,
> 
> You show some insight. Yes, you may indeed have joined the wrong 
> group :-).
> 
> The dislike wasn't in Amara's post. It was all in yourself. The 
> solution will not come from Amara. It will come from yourself, or 
not 
> at all.
> 
> By the way, it is very unladylike to introduce yourself with a 
right 
> hook and a swift kick to the gonads.
> 
> What did you say your name was, mate?
> 
> Herman
> 
> --- J.L. wrote:
> > Mr Amara
> > Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have joined the 
wrong 
> > group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous speach before, 
I 
> > hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning Buddhism and 
I 
> > dont like what I read in your post. could you please explain what 
> on 
> > earth is going on 
> > with Metta
> > J.L. 
> > PS
> > I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks from Insite to 
> > Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you treating these 
> > chappies so Bad
> > 

 
5017 From: Bill Sims 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  HERMAN
You sound like a puny little runt that runs around barking into 
neighbors gardens. Come teatime you will be curled up into a little 
ball and asleep at someones feet. Leave adult conversation to adults, 
I didn't see your name mentioned you in any way, you runt.

BS

--- Herman wrote:
> John Luke,
> 
> You show some insight. Yes, you may indeed have joined the wrong 
> group :-).
> 
> The dislike wasn't in Amara's post. It was all in yourself. The 
> solution will not come from Amara. It will come from yourself, or 
not 
> at all.
> 
> By the way, it is very unladylike to introduce yourself with a 
right 
> hook and a swift kick to the gonads.
> 
> What did you say your name was, mate?
> 
> Herman
> 

 
5019 From: Bill Sims 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 5:22pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die-amara

 
  Hey Amara do you think you are a Arahant yet, you are trying to sound 
like one, or do you want to make people think that maybe you are one. 
I think you are a pimp.
BS
--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> Dear Herman,
> 
> Panna is not wisdom to know things as they really are for nothing.  
> The arahanta would know they have reached that stage, although that 
> stage without kilesa is also without mana that makes them 
distinguish 
> their nama and rupa from the rest of nama and rupa.  After each 
level 
> of attainment there is a nana that goes revues all the kilesa 
> eradicated and all that is left, so none of the ariya puggala could 
> ever mistake the level they are at and what there is left to 
> eradicate.
> 
> Amara
> 
> > Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters 
> they 
> > are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer 
know 
> > an Arahant?
> > 
> > I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that 
> the 
> > concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable)
> > (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable).
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Kind Regards
> > 
> > Herman
> > 
> > 
 
5020 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: Mr Amara -explain yourself mate-Hermsn

 
  Dear Bill,

I just want to acknowledge that I have read your post.

I am choosing not to reply to it's content.

Hope this finds you well.

Kind Regards


Herman

--- Bill Sims wrote:
> HERMAN
> You sound like a puny little runt that runs around barking into 
> neighbors gardens. Come teatime you will be curled up into a little 
> ball and asleep at someones feet. Leave adult conversation to 
adults, 
> I didn't see your name mentioned you in any way, you runt.
> 
> BS
> 

 
5021 From: Moderators 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:15pm
Subject: Moderator Warning

 
  Please note that any members who write abusive posts  will have 
their messages moderated without notice.

We apologise to all other members for any offence that may have 
been caused recently.

DSG Moderators

 
5022 From: Joe 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  Jon

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Joe

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Joe
> 
> > Until panna confirms what one reads in the Tipitaka,
> > you are dealing 
> > with theoretical constructs, at least as I
> > understand the meaning 
> > of 'theory'.
> 
> We may need to define terms here.  Any teaching
> purporting to be a declaration of absolute truths
> which have been realised, and are realisable, by
> direct experience would not fall within my
> understanding of the term 'theoretical construct'. 
> (The inclusion of the factor of direct experience is
> crucial in this regard.)
> 
> Any of the Four Noble Truths, for
> > example, like Newton's 
> > theory of gravitation, is a theory or hypothesis
> > that can be tested. 
> > If you accept any statement in the pitakas without
> > testing it, it is 
> > unconfirmed theory. Once tested, if it obtains then
> > it's a confirmed 
> > theory (until another theory proves otherwise).
> 
> I agree that the teachings can only be confirmed to
> the extent that one's developed panna allows, and that
> beyond that they can only be a working hypothesis
> (thanks, Mike).  HOwever, to the extent that they are
> confirmed, they are realised in a sense that, say,
> Newton's laws could never be (they being concepts).
> 
> > I guess I didn't make the "I know what works for me"
> > side clear. I 
> > was referring in particular to the post that said
> > something like 'to 
> > hell with the written word,' which to me meant that
> > view valued 
> > personal experience over scripture. Not that I
> > sympathise with that 
> > point of view.
> 
> Understood.  Actually, Erik later clarified that
> remark, to make it clear that it was not intended the
> way we all took it.
> 
> > Naturally, and that's my point, that none of us can
> > point to one 
> > interpretation of the pitakas and say "This is the
> > correct one." But 
> > there are DSG posters on this list who have implied
> > that one 
> > particular interpretation they are acquainted with
> > (or have 
> > discovered) is the correct one.
> 
> You are right to point out the dangers of dogmatic
> assertion.
> 
> > > I am not sure what you mean by 'infallible' here,
> > as
> > > applied to the pitakas.  Again, I would put the
> > > question slightly differently -- whether the
> > pitakas
> > > are 100% the actual word of the Buddha.  
> > 
> > Then let me put it another way, so you can't slip
> > out of the question 
> > so easily! How do you know the "actual word of the
> > Buddha" is 
> > infallible?
> 
> It is the *truths* taught by the Buddha that are said
> to be infallible, and verifiable by any person for
> themselves.  I think there is danger in attaching the
> label 'infallible' to a person's *words*, since words
> are simply the medium by which the (purported) truths
> are conveyed.
> 
> How's that for slipping out of a question?
>  
> > >Can there be
> > > > an independent 
> > > > judge of the fruits of your practice?
> > > 
> > > I don't believe so.
> > 
> > Not even your reading of the Tipitaka?
> 
> No.  There is nothing independent about a person's
> interpretation of someone else's words, especially
> when those words are the basis for the person's
> practice in the first place.
> 
> > > My own approach is to test any expression of view
> > > against the Tipitaka.  To me, this is essential
> > > because, due to the mass of our accumulated wrong
> > > view, one's own 'experience' is on its own a most
> > > unreliable and therefore dangerous guide.  I don't
> > > feel the need to make any apology for this
> > approach
> > > (nor are you suggesting that I should).  But the
> > fact
> > > is, the teaching on any particular point can be
> > > exceedingly difficult to discern, and lengthy and
> > > rigorous study of the texts is often necessary.
> > 
> > And how do you know you're understanding the texts
> correctly?
> 
> I think it is difficult to ever assert the one has
> understood a text correctly.  That's why the study of
> the texts, and the application of the understanding
> arising from that study, is a never-ending task.
> 
> > > Joe, I won't ask you whether you can produce an
> > actual
> > > example from the archives of anyone on this list
> > > making a similar claim!  
> > 
> > Well, you've as much as asked me now, haven't you?
> > And I think I 
> > could produce one, actually -- but I wouldn't like
> > to take it that 
> > far.
> 
> Joe, thanks for ignoring my provocation.  I am
> probably one of the worst offenders in this regard!
> 
> > > > Thus I can understand why some practitioners
> > might
> > > > place unwritten 
> > > > dharma transmission  -- person to person
> > > > transmission, as in Tibetan 
> > > > or Zen Buddhism and even among many Theravadins
> > > > (those who follow 
> > > > this or that living teacher) -- above written
> > > > transmission, 
> > > > especially when the latter can be complicated by
> > > > differing 
> > > > translations, differing interpretations, 'lost'
> > > > sutras, Sanskrit vs 
> > > > Pali sutras, cultural filters, persistent usage
> > of
> > > > undefined Pali 
> > > > terms, etc. 
> > > 
> > > That would imply, I suppose, that those people
> > must
> > > regard unwritten transmission as being more
> > reliable
> > > than written transmission?
> > 
> > Exactly. The Kasyapa lineage, for example.
> 
> I suppose the question of whether a written or an oral
> tradition is more reliable is an open question, and so
> not worth pursuing here.
>  
> > > > Wherever you're placing your Pascalian wager --
> > on
> > > > written or 
> > > > spoken/silent or a combination of the two -- one
> > > > could argue that one 
> > > > is not receiving dharma directly from the
> > Buddha,
> > > > but from 
> > > > intermediary sources. This will always remain a
> > > > tactical conundrum 
> > > > for Buddhist scholars, however strongly you may
> > > > argue that the 
> > > > Tripitaka is the ultimate authority and that you
> > > > have the only 
> > > > correct interpretation of it. 
> > > 
> > > The approach taken by most people in my experience
> > is
> > > that while the Tipitaka is the ultimate authority
> > of
> > > the Buddha's word as best we have it, it's
> > > interpretation is very much a matter for inquiry
> > and
> > > discussion.  I agree that there are times when
> > > different views are robustly expressed, but this
> > does
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> Saved by the truncation!  If this has allowed me to
> duck anything that I shouln't, please feel free to
> draw my attention to it.
> 
> Jon
> 
> Ps  Sorry to have missed you in Bangkok.  Looking
> forward to that pleasure on some future occasion.
> 
> 

 
5023 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 4:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can Arahants Die-amara

 
  Hi, Bill -

I just read the following three posts from you:

#1
Ladies and Gentleman
Something has gone dreadfully wrong here. I only sense anger and 
unskilled thoughts from everyone. The display of anger is contrary to 
Buddhist practice of Dhamma. Buddhism does not teach us to display 
anger when faced with adversity of views. How can we call ourselves 
true Buddhists when we display such outwardly unskilled behavior. We 
must all analyze our ongoing behavior for our own good and the 
furtherance of Buddhism.

Bill Sims

#2
HERMAN
You sound like a puny little runt that runs around barking into 
neighbors gardens. Come teatime you will be curled up into a little 
ball and asleep at someones feet. Leave adult conversation to adults, 
I didn't see your name mentioned you in any way, you 

#3
Hey Amara do you think you are a Arahant yet, you are trying to sound 
like one, or do you want to make people think that maybe you are one. 
I think you are a pimp.
BS
==============================
       Are numbers 2 and 3 really from you? If yes, would you please explain 
what you are trying to do here? Is this an attempt at humor or irony? This is 
not the list for this sort of posting. You might try the newsgroups instead.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5024 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from a new member

 
  Hi Wafik,

I wrote a message to you a couple of days ago to
welcome you to the list, but I think it got lost
somewhere in cyberspace (happens to me too,Amara!!)

I'm so glad you're enjoying the messages on theravada.
Pls let us know if you have any questions or comments.

I've sorry, but I can't help you with your question
below, but I'd be interested to hear anything you care
to share about your background and interest in
Buddhism. May I ask where you are from, too??

Best rgds,

Sarah


--- Wafik wrote: > Hello everybody in
this Group,
> 
> I really appreciate all the messages posted and the
> wide knowledge of 
> Theravada Buddhism evident in the messages.
> 
> For about a year now I've been reading a lot about
> Theravada Buddhism 
> and Vipassana. I'm also planning to go on a
> meditation retreat in 
> Myanmar this July. Did anybody go there? Probably
> you can give me 
> some tips. I'm now at the stage of contacting a
> Myanmar embassy via e-
> mail for a meditation visa. I've got no answer so
> far.
> 
> with metta
> 
> Wafik
> 

 
5025 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Mike

I was sorry to read about your discouragement.  I am
sure it is unfounded.
  
I don't propose to go through your points, because I
think in your frustration you have deliberately
overstated your conclusions!  I would, however, like
to encourage you to keep considering the points made
in posts and to test anything said here against the
texts of the Tipitaka, a source which you are more
familiar with than just about anyone else on the list.

Mike, it is not unnatural to have doubt about the
teachings, and also self-doubt and other unpleasant
mental states.  As long as we are not enlightened we
will continue to do so.  I am sure your sentiments are
shared by others on the list too from time to time.

Also, as long as we continue to study the teachings
there will be times when we come to realise that our
understanding is not correct in some respect or other
- this after all is how progress is made along the
path.

To look on the positive side, any realisation of our
own inadequacies can, as Num has pointed out, be a
sign of maturity of understanding.

I do hope nothing I have said has contributed
unnecessarily to your confusion.  Please feel free to
say if that is so.

Jon

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear
Howard,
> 
> You're so much better informed than I am, and so
> much
> better-spoken.  My heart really goes out to you with
> this post, and it inspires me to post several
> tentative and extremely discouraging conclusions
> I've
> painfully and gradually come to myself.  I hope you
> don't mind my piggy-backing on your MUCH more
> thoughtful post.
> 
> 1. Everything I ever thought I knew or understood
> about the Dhamma is completely wrong.
> 2. There is no kusala kamma except sammasati of the
> eightfold path, which arises only with the stages of
> enlightenment.  
> 3. There is no intervening practice between total
> ignorance and stream-entry, except, apparently,
> hearing the Dhamma (which can only happen totally
> passively, as the present result of past intentions)
> and reading the Abhidhamma and commentaries (and
> certain authors).  
> 4. Even if there were other practices, they would be
> impossible because of anatta and anicca.
> 5. There are no Four Noble Truths (therefore no
> Eightfold Path) except for ariyans.
> 6. All effort (except by ariyans) is either akusala
> or
> incomprehensible.
> 7. All samatha practices, therefore all suttas
> referring to them are obsolete.
> 8. Although the sense of self is not eradicated
> until
> total enlightenment, any understanding, thought,
> speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness or
> concentration accompanied by a sense of self is
> akusala, micchaditthi and completely unrelated to
> the
> Eightfold Path.
> 9. There is no such thing as skilful reflection
> except
> by ariyans.  Any idea that I can understand any
> exhortation or reflection of the Buddha is ipso
> facto
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 10. Anything I imagine I can think, say or do is
> akusala and micchaditthi.
> 11. Anything kusala thought to be arising
> subjectively, even if consciously unaccompanied by
> the
> idea of a self conditioning it, is necessarily
> akusala
> and micchaditthi unless it can be directly perceived
> as nama or rupa--i.e., by an Ariyan.
> 12. Any hope of any kind of progress, ever, is a
> delusion.  There is no path to the cessation of
> suffering except for those on its very threshold.
> 
> Sorry these aren't better organized.  Just a few
> tentative conclusions to thirty years' wasted time,
> off the top of my head.
> 
> mike

 
5026 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mr Amara -explain yourself mate

 
  Dear John,

I'm sure that if you are sincerely wishing to study
more about Buddhism then this is certainly the right
place to be and we will all do our best to help you.

As with any teaching, religion, philosophy or way of
life, there are bound to be different understandings,
views and interpretations. I believe it's very useful
to discuss these and to help each other learn more.
Indeed this is the very purpose of this group here.

I re-read the message you referred to by Amara, a Thai
lady and good friend of mine. As anyone who follows
this list knows, we usually agree, but sometimes
disagree on points of dhamma and are not afraid to
point this out! In this case, although some of her
comments to Marlon may have been considered by some as
being too direct, I fail to see how they could be
perceived in quite the way you describe, but that
doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong!!

Anyway, I hope you enjoy other messages on the list
and feel free to ask any questions.

Please would you tell us a little about your
background and interest in Buddhism and where you live
too.

Best rgds,

Sarah

--- J.L. wrote: > Mr Amara
> Hi,I am a new member.I am woundering maybe I have
> joined the wrong 
> group, I have never heard such rude and slanderous
> speach before, I 
> hope you are not a buddhist Monk, I am just learning
> Buddhism and I 
> dont like what I read in your post. could you please
> explain what on 
> earth is going on 
> with Metta
> J.L. 
> PS
> I also have read a little about Thai Forest Monks
> from Insite to 
> Buddhism, I think they a good monks, why are you
> treating these 
> chappies so Bad
> 
> --- "Amara" 
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Contarary to what you feel about all my past
> statements on Dhamma-
> > > Vinaya. I assure you they are not my made up
> views. I do not 
> > 
> > classify 
> > > myself worthy to possess any view pertaining to
> the masters 
> Dhamma 
> > > Vinaya, other aspects yes to my fullest
> potential. For a long 
> time 
> > > now I have been using the views from some of 
> your/our Greatest 
> Thai 
> > > Forest Buddhist Masters.
> > 
> > Dear Marlon,
> > 
> > I have never studied any other teachings but those
> of the Tipitaka, 
> > and do not wish to, whether they are Thai or not
> they are not mine 
> if 
> > they do not explain the Tipitaka or refute it in
> any way.
> > 
> > > Nobody has caught on to this yet. Maybe 
> > > because most of you find them not worthy to be
> studied. They 
> spent a 
> > > lifetime experiencing true Dhamma, and they
> succeeded in 
> > > understanding it perfectly, because they had to
> live like the 
> Buddha 
> > > to experience the meaning of the Dhamma, not
> like some pleasure 
> > > filled Dhamma experts nowadays who churn out
> their own renditions 
> of 
> > > some of the Buddhas most Noble works from their
> own experiences 
> > which 
> > > amount to NOTHING. I beg to set the record
> straight before 
> someone 
> > > puts his noble foot into his noble mouth.
> > 
> > The Buddha did not live in the forest all the
> time, he lived in 
> > mahaviharas the ruins of which you have yourself
> photographs of in 
> > your website, in the vicinity of the great cities
> where he taught 
> > kings and princes as well as leprous beggars.  He
> did it was true 
> that 
> > he spent a lot of time in remote areas but his
> main purpose was, 
> after 
> > his enlightenment, to teach and he couldn't very
> well teach where 
> > there are no people.  He spent most of the time,
> as one sees in the 
> > Tipitaka, or those of us who read it do, accepting
> alms and 
> teaching, 
> > not running off to sit alone in supposed beatitude
> as some people 
> > might have us think.  Those who do that and claim
> to have led the 
> > Buddha's life and experienced the same thing
> should indeed study 
> the 
> > Tipitaka so that when they put their foot in their
> mouth they would 
> > know it instead of thinking others do without
> realizing the truth 
> in 
> > the Tipitaka.
> > 
> > People who think they experience what the Buddha
> did without 
> knowing 
> > what he taught in the Tipitaka, without learning
> the dhamma as he 
> > taught even through the oral tradition would be
> like some monkeys I 
> > saw near some meditation centers where they see
> all the people 
> moving 
> >  S_L_O_W_L_L_Y  in silence and start to do the
> same.  I suppose 
> they 
> > gain the same insight.  
> > 
> > On the contrary if one knows the nature of citta
> and cetasika, that 
> > panna or right understanding of things as they
> really are is the 
> only 
> > thing that can eradicate moha which is at the root
> of all kilesa, 
> and 
> > that panna like all other things except nibbana
> has to be 
> conditioned 
> > to arise, and how to condition panna with
> satipatthana, one could 
> live 
> > anywhere, as the Buddha did, even when he went to
> the heavenly 
> planes 
> > to teach.  One could be a king and attain high
> levels of wisdom, or 
> be 
> > a slave and do the same.  One does not have to
> become a forest monk 
> > and imitate the exterior image of the Buddha
> discounting what he 
> did 
> > after he became enlightened.  Indeed those who
> imitated the wrong 
> > parts, such as when he fasted to the extreme
> before his attainment 
> > would be doing something he forbade others to do
> as futile exercise.



 
5027 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: p.s.

 
  Dear Dan, Rob, Howard, Num, Kom,Erik and everyone
else,

have you all in mind and I note there are lots of good
meaty posts to catch up on (hopefully
tomorrow)....we've had some really super discussions
in Bkk (live ones) w/ Khun Sujin and friends and hope
to get back with some appetisers tomorrow.....

Hope the list is back to 'normal' by then too!!

Sarah



 
5028 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 2:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Erik

Thanks for your detailed explanation.  It helps me to
understand where some of our members are coming from.

My immediate reaction is, to return to an earlier
thread raised by you, that this is an area of definite
departure between the Mahayana and the Therevada
traditions.  The concept of 'black deeds [being]
transformed by panna into the purest and most
indestructible substance known to man' would seem to
contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. 
Likewise, the concept of a source or kind of kusala
outside those enumerated in the suttas would also be
contradictory.  To particlarise, if tantric bliss is
kusala, what kind of kusala citta is it and what is
its object?

===============
Erik:
Anyway, I hope you find this of some use. It will
hopefully better 
help you and I continue our conversations (and
debates!) as well.
=================

Yes, I'm sure it will.  Funny thing about our debates
though, Erik.  They usually die at an early stage,
with me waiting for an answer from you.  The latest
example of this was my recent request for your
explanation of the term 'vipassana' as used in the
context of a statement you made.  I seem to recall
other examples (eg. the meaning of the Eightfold Path
as found in the Mahayana texts).

Jon

--- Erik wrote: >  Jonothan Abbott
>  wrote:
> > Erik
> > 
> > > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited
> that
> > > temptation for 
> > > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having
> been
> > > well-established in 
> > > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be
> > > "vajrayanic." It is 
> > > either what you are (physiologically) or it is
> not.
> > > You can't choose 
> > > it; it chooses you.
> > 
> > I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before. 
> > Would you mind giving a short explanation? 
> Thanks.
> 
> Vajrayana literally means 'diamond vehicle,' the
> appellation applied 
> to the form of Buddhism that arose in India and was
> well-represented 
> (fairly dominant even I beleive) from the 8th
> century on in various 
> monasteries like Nalanada (the Mahasiddha Naropa is
> the root lineage-
> holder of the Tibetan Kagyu and Geluk and Sakya
> schools, and Naropa 
> was abbot of Nalanda). These teachings in particular
> include that 
> various tantras. It seems all these practices arose
> in a real 
> hothouse environment of the time in India. I am not
> even close to 
> being a historian though, so please take this with a
> grain of salt, 
> as it's to the best of my recollection.
> 
> The etymology: Vajra is Sanskrit for 'diamond' as I
> assume many here 
> are aware. Vajra also has many many deeper meanings
> in Tibetan, where 
> it is known as Do-rJe (dorje), which literally means
> 'Lord of 
> Stones'. 
> 
> One thing this symbolizes is the "adamantine wisdom"
> of ongoing 
> realization. The Vajra is also symbolizes the
> thunderbolt, which 
> represents the flash of insight that arises with
> realization of 
> anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The dorje is also the
> implement of Indra 
> (as well as the Tibetan version of Indra,
> Vajrapani). Another meaning 
> I devised for this from my own painful experience is
> fact that 
> there's only one known way to make a diamond, and
> that's enormous 
> heat and pressure applied for a VERY long time. This
> is very true in 
> tantra. When Kundalini (prana/chi) is activated
> either through 
> natural ripening or forced with tantric energy
> yogas, it's like being 
> tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where
> akusala kamma is 
> consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna
> into the purest 
> and most indestructible substance known to man.
> 
> Since you asked, perhaps it would be helpful to
> explain a bit about 
> tantric theory, since it a source of great confusion
> for many people. 
> I have debated a LOT internally about the
> justification and need for 
> tantra given the Buddha did not explicitly teach it
> in the suttas. 
> And, the fact is, there is not a hair of difference
> between the 
> understanding of the Four Noble Truths and anicca,
> dukkha, and anatta 
> in the Tibetan Buddhadharma between what is taught
> in the Theravada. 
> The agreement on this between systems--and I can say
> this having 
> received correct teachings from teachers in both
> lineages--is 100%, 
> even though presentations of the same thing differ
> markedly, the 
> Tibetan relying largely on Nagarjuna's "Root
> Treatise on the Middle 
> Way" (Mulamadhyamakakarika) for its presentation of
> anatta, in this 
> case described as emptiness.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that tantra is essential
> for some people, 
> simply because of physiological makeup. If the
> Kundalini starts 
> functioning you HAVE to deal with it. There is
> simply no choice, 
> beacuse it can precipitate all sorts of really nasty
> side-effects if 
> one is not prepared for it. So it's not even a
> matter of preference 
> for many people, but a real necessity. Failing to
> properly harness 
> and control activated Kundalini can lead to serious
> psychological and 
> even physical problems, the worst recorded examples
> being insanity 
> and death. (One reason tantra is called "walking the
> razor's edge").
> 
> Tantric theory derives from the function of the
> "prana" or life 
> energy that circulates in the body, the same thing
> as taught in both 
> Traditional Chinese Medicine and Indian Ayurvedic
> medicine, and 
> central to this physiological understanding are the
> "chakras." Indian 
> tantrikas, both Buddhist and Hindu, discovered that
> through certain 
> types of hatha yoga emphasizing breath control and
> visualzation, one 
> can engender states of "inconceivable" bliss. Bliss
> that has one very 
> interesting property: it somehow does NOT act as a
> condition for 
> lobha. In other words, there is no clinging to this
> type of bliss 
> generated in the practice of tantra. Another
> interesting property of 
> this bliss is that it thoroughly pacifies the
> nivaranas and acts as a 
> foundation for directly realizing emptiness (anatta)
> when it arises 
> in meditation.
> 
> The aim of tantric Buddhism is to harness this
> capacity for bliss 
> built into this fathom-long body to open the door to
> liberation. This 
> bliss is considered akin to nulclear fusion energy
> as well, because 
> after a certain point it becomes self-sustaining in
> terms of 
> engendering unstoppable bliss that supports acts of
> virtue and 
> enables one to accumulate vast reserves of kusala
> kamma, which is 
> taught to be necessary for attaining Buddhahood in
> this lifetime. 
> When the Kundalini is fully activated this way,
> there is the free 
> flow of prana throughout the body, but most
> important through 
> the "heart chakra." Kundalini "bliss" effects are
> all lokiya, and as 
> such are not confused with lokuttara realizations.
> 
> This condition of fully awakened Kundalini is known
> as a "tantric 
> paradise" or "pure land" and this is attained IN
> THIS BODY. 
> This "tantric paradise" then serves as the
> foundation for attaining 
> Buddhahood in the same lifetime. This tantric
> paradise means that one 
> is inhabiting a state of perpetual
> bliss-consciousness in this body. 
> This is supposed to be a very nice place to work out
> one's final 
> liberation, because dukkha is strongly pacified
> (though not 
> terminated, which is as always only via lokuttara
> nana) by this 
> attainment.
> 
> And just a note: Buddhahood is NOT "coming back
> again and again" or 
> in direct contradiction to anything taught in the
> Tripitaka about 
> final realization. It is still the blowing out of
> the defilements, 
> though through a somewhat different strategy. The
> final result is 
> still lokuttara, in other words--no god-realms,
> atman, or any of that 
> some folks believe. I have been saddened by some of
> the distortions 
> I've seen from people who should be much more
> thorough in 
> investigating things they wish to criticize. I see
> basic 
=== message truncated ===


 
5029 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 2:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  Dear Dan & Rob,

Thanks for all your comments and considerations....

Yes, after I wrote my original post, I checked it out
pretty carefully before posting, but after the
comments about the 'dry' list, I was trying to keep it
from being too academic!

I don't have any texts w/me of course, but I think (as
I mentioned to Num when we were talking about
sanna)the problem is that we have a conventional idea
about energy or laziness, to give 2 examples, and
furthermore we're very used to taking them for self as
well.

Viriya energizes or 'cheers on' (o.k. I'll drop
cheerleader) the citta to cognize or be conscious of
its object and the other cetasikas to perform their
functions regardless of whether they are kusala or
akusala, and regardless, in conventional language, as
to whether they seem to be energetic or lazy ones...As
we have discussed, the nture of the viriya is
different at each moment, depending on the other
'ingredients' it is combined with, but I don't see
that we can say it is stronger or weaker depending on
whether it is accompanied by sati or acompanied by
thina and middha (sloth & torpor) for example.


--- Dan wrote: > There is an
apparent contradiction in Narada's
> commentary on A.S. He 
> writes, "Where there are Thina and Middha there is
> no viriya." In 
> part, this is what I was basing my comment on. But
> A.S. lists viriya 
> as a "fixed adjunct" that invariably arises in its
> assigned types of 
> consciousness (viz., the akusala and kusala cittas).

yes

> Apparently, this 
> means that viriya arises in every kusala and akusala
> citta, contrary 
> to what I wrote in my previous few messages. In that
> case, THANKS 
> Sarah and Robert for straightening me out! 

We're all here to keep straightening each other
out...nothing easy about it!! Your careful
consideration helps a lot!
> 
> This brings up an interesting question, though,
> about why Narada would 
> write his comment. He was a wise and learned
> bhikkhu, and I don't 
> think he would make such a silly error unless
> there's more to it than 
> meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of
> A.S.) writes: "Viriya 
> is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its
> proximate cause is 
> a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to
> vigorous action." 
> Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency
> just doesn't seem to 
> apply to any kusala or akusala citta, in particular
> those with thina 
> and middha. 

For me, this is a little misleading, or perhaps that
depends on how one u'stands action. Flat out, unable
to move with dosa, say, and yet there is a sense of
urgency which stirs, not one, but the citta to be
fixed on the object at that moment too.

Is this because viriya means different
> things in different 
> contexts? 

Although the exact characteristic of all cetasikas
(and any other realitye) is different at each
moment,generally speaking, the function, nature,
proximate cause etc are the same.

Dan, I always enjoy reading your posts, and look f/w
to hearing more. 

Btw, they tell me it's hot, very hot in Bangkok, but I
haven't noticed it yet....I swim early in the morning,
dive into air-conditoned rooms like this in the middle
of the day and avoid any unnecessary 'running
around'....Even today (Rob may be shocked to hear)
we've given up a trip with Khun Sujin to relax quietly
under the palm trees and catch up with you guys! I
like to have time to consider what I've heard and we
have one more 'party' tomorrow with her.

Speak soon,

Sarah 



 
5030 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi Howard,

This was interesting too...

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, all (especially
Amara) -
> 
>        I've been looking over the "Summary" again,
> particularly the articles 
> on Samatha and Vipassana. 
..............................................
>        I suspect that this post may be disappointing
> to a number of you, and, 
> for that, I am most regretful. Please do understand
> that I have come to learn 
> more about Abhidhamma and to have greater repect for
> it than ever, since 
> being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue
> a serious study of it, 
> and I would very much like to continue to
> participate in discussions of it 
> and other matters on the list. 

I hope you don't mind that I've 'truncated' all the
meat out of your neat message.

Just a couple (actually, no idea how many as yet) of
brief comments:


1. I doubt anyone would be disappointed to hear that
you find this book is not such easy reading!! 

2. It's certainly not compulsory reading for these
discussions!

3. There are no rules about what Buddhist books or
texts we all read, how we read them or in what order.

4. Unlike Num & Rob and the other bright larks that
have the capacity and accumulations to read abhidhamma
and other texts from cover to cover, I'm more like a
slug or snail that takes its time.....I dip in here
and there (actually, maybe I'm more a woodpecker,
Num), go forwards, backwards and sideways...What I
have always been able to do, however, is to consider
pretty carefully what I read or hear.

5. At one of the discussions with Khun Sujin and also
under the palm trees by the pool, I've been dipping
into Nina's translation of the same book (can be
downloaded from Zolag or abhidhamm.org websites). This
is not such a literal translation and she also adds a
lot of very helpful notes. You may find it easier
reading. One problem, though, is that the original
Thai book was written from lectures and so it is very
difficult to translate and quite an undetrtaking by
both Amara and Nina.

6. Even when we were looking at it together with Khun
Sujin (thanks Betty), we were skipping over the intro,
jumping to Ch3 and then reading a little and
discussing what we'd read....abhidhamma is here and
now, not just in the text. 

K.S. kept reminding us that we should remember the
purpose when we study or read or discuss the details:
it should be to understand more about the realities
appearing in our lives right now!!

So, Howard, enjoy reading whatever you find useful and
interesting and share anything you like!

Maybe time for another dip in the pool...After all it
is a holiday (thanks to today being Buddha's birthday
in Hong Kong although it's not 'til next week in Bkk).

Sarah



5032 From: Amara   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:21pm
Subject: Re: Can Arahants Die

 
  Dear all,

I'm sorry I forgot to give the source of the information in the reply 
below, which is in the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' the chapter on 
vipassana in the advanced section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> from 
which I quote:


Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana

After the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta would 
arise in continuation after which the mano-dvara-vithi-citta would 
arise and examine the reality that has just been fully realized 
process by process, one examining the instant of magga-citta, another 
the phala-citta, another the kilesa that has been eradicated, still 
another the remaining kilesa and finally nibbana. 
For those who attain arahanta-magga and arahata-phala, there is no 
examination of the rest of the kilesa because the arahanta-magga-citta 
eradicates all the kilesa completely, without any remnants.

(End quote)

It is normal to have doubts or uncertainties when this nana has not 
arisen, to know things exactly.  But even after any level of 
attainment, it is forbidden for the person to declare their 
achievement although they realize the truth fully.  That only the 
Buddha could do for anyone.  This is in the vinaya.

The Dhamma can be taught or discussed by anyone, while the pacceka 
Buddha might not teach at all, although he is an arahanta.  There are 
several instances where the teachers who taught the dhamma according 
to the Buddha's teachings and caused many people to attain arahantship 
when they themselves had not reached any stage of enlightenment.  But 
the Buddha had, as has been quoted before in this list, taught all we 
need to know about the path 'holding nothing back'.  Everything we 
need is in the Tipitaka, in the Dhamma which he left as teacher in his 
place, and as long as the dhamma is there, he is still with us.

I have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings,

Amara

> 
> Dear Herman,
> 
> Panna is not wisdom to know things as they really are for nothing.  
> The arahanta would know they have reached that stage, although that 
> stage without kilesa is also without mana that makes them 
distinguish 
> their nama and rupa from the rest of nama and rupa.  After each 
level 
> of attainment there is a nana that goes revues all the kilesa 
> eradicated and all that is left, so none of the ariya puggala could 
> ever mistake the level they are at and what there is left to 
> eradicate.
> 
> Amara
> 
> > Do Arahants know they are Arahants? Do Arahants know the fetters 
> they 
> > are not bound by? Do Arahants know their death? Can an observer 
know 
> > an Arahant?
> > 
> > I answer all the above in the negative. Which is why I think that 
> the 
> > concept Arahant is not very useful (because it is not verifiable)
> > (umless you have superpowers, which are also not verifiable).
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Kind Regards
> > 
> > Herman
> > 
> >

 
5033 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 3:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Erik,

I'm torn between that pool dip and a not to
you...maybe just a quick one for now!

Just to say I appreciated all your trouble in sharing
this background....you can really play a very
important role here....and I rather enjoy any of the
debates with you!

I have a dear friend who is always talking to me about
'Pure Land' and now I understand a little better where
this comes from.

I have practised yoga and pranayama for a very long
time and also studied Chinese healing systems etc.
However I have no idea at all of any of these having
anything to do with Buddhism or what the Buddha
taught. For similar reasons, I have misgivings about
whether tantra and the other practices you mention can
really be considered 'Buddhist' in this sense and how
they help develop any understanding or kusala at this
moment.

I'm getting distracted and I know this is not an
adequate response, but it'll probably have to wait til
I'm home for more!

Perhaps others will debate better!

Sarah


--- Erik wrote: > ---  Jonothan Abbott
>  wrote:
> > Erik
> > 
> > > I was lucky in this regard: Zen short-circuited
> that
> > > temptation for 
> > > me, because I came to Vajrayana after having
> been
> > > well-established in 
> > > the core of the Dharma. Anyway, you can't be
> > > "vajrayanic." It is 
> > > either what you are (physiologically) or it is
> not.
> > > You can't choose 
> > > it; it chooses you.
> > 
> > I've not come across the term 'vajrayana' before. 
> > Would you mind giving a short explanation? 
> Thanks.
> 
> Vajrayana literally means 'diamond vehicle,' the
> appellation applied 
> to the form of Buddhism that arose in India and was
> well-represented 
> (fairly dominant even I beleive) from the 8th
> century on in various 
> monasteries like Nalanada (the Mahasiddha Naropa is
> the root lineage-
> holder of the Tibetan Kagyu and Geluk and Sakya
> schools, and Naropa 
> was abbot of Nalanda). These teachings in particular
> include that 
> various tantras. It seems all these practices arose
> in a real 
> hothouse environment of the time in India. I am not
> even close to 
> being a historian though, so please take this with a
> grain of salt, 
> as it's to the best of my recollection.
> 
> The etymology: Vajra is Sanskrit for 'diamond' as I
> assume many here 
> are aware. Vajra also has many many deeper meanings
> in Tibetan, where 
> it is known as Do-rJe (dorje), which literally means
> 'Lord of 
> Stones'. 
> 
> One thing this symbolizes is the "adamantine wisdom"
> of ongoing 
> realization. The Vajra is also symbolizes the
> thunderbolt, which 
> represents the flash of insight that arises with
> realization of 
> anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The dorje is also the
> implement of Indra 
> (as well as the Tibetan version of Indra,
> Vajrapani). Another meaning 
> I devised for this from my own painful experience is
> fact that 
> there's only one known way to make a diamond, and
> that's enormous 
> heat and pressure applied for a VERY long time. This
> is very true in 
> tantra. When Kundalini (prana/chi) is activated
> either through 
> natural ripening or forced with tantric energy
> yogas, it's like being 
> tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where
> akusala kamma is 
> consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna
> into the purest 
> and most indestructible substance known to man.
> 
> Since you asked, perhaps it would be helpful to
> explain a bit about 
> tantric theory, since it a source of great confusion
> for many people. 
> I have debated a LOT internally about the
> justification and need for 
> tantra given the Buddha did not explicitly teach it
> in the suttas. 
> And, the fact is, there is not a hair of difference
> between the 
> understanding of the Four Noble Truths and anicca,
> dukkha, and anatta 
> in the Tibetan Buddhadharma between what is taught
> in the Theravada. 
> The agreement on this between systems--and I can say
> this having 
> received correct teachings from teachers in both
> lineages--is 100%, 
> even though presentations of the same thing differ
> markedly, the 
> Tibetan relying largely on Nagarjuna's "Root
> Treatise on the Middle 
> Way" (Mulamadhyamakakarika) for its presentation of
> anatta, in this 
> case described as emptiness.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that tantra is essential
> for some people, 
> simply because of physiological makeup. If the
> Kundalini starts 
> functioning you HAVE to deal with it. There is
> simply no choice, 
> beacuse it can precipitate all sorts of really nasty
> side-effects if 
> one is not prepared for it. So it's not even a
> matter of preference 
> for many people, but a real necessity. Failing to
> properly harness 
> and control activated Kundalini can lead to serious
> psychological and 
> even physical problems, the worst recorded examples
> being insanity 
> and death. (One reason tantra is called "walking the
> razor's edge").
> 
> Tantric theory derives from the function of the
> "prana" or life 
> energy that circulates in the body, the same thing
> as taught in both 
> Traditional Chinese Medicine and Indian Ayurvedic
> medicine, and 
> central to this physiological understanding are the
> "chakras." Indian 
> tantrikas, both Buddhist and Hindu, discovered that
> through certain 
> types of hatha yoga emphasizing breath control and
> visualzation, one 
> can engender states of "inconceivable" bliss. Bliss
> that has one very 
> interesting property: it somehow does NOT act as a
> condition for 
> lobha. In other words, there is no clinging to this
> type of bliss 
> generated in the practice of tantra. Another
> interesting property of 
> this bliss is that it thoroughly pacifies the
> nivaranas and acts as a 
> foundation for directly realizing emptiness (anatta)
> when it arises 
> in meditation.
> 
> The aim of tantric Buddhism is to harness this
> capacity for bliss 
> built into this fathom-long body to open the door to
> liberation. This 
> bliss is considered akin to nulclear fusion energy
> as well, because 
> after a certain point it becomes self-sustaining in
> terms of 
> engendering unstoppable bliss that supports acts of
> virtue and 
> enables one to accumulate vast reserves of kusala
> kamma, which is 
> taught to be necessary for attaining Buddhahood in
> this lifetime. 
> When the Kundalini is fully activated this way,
> there is the free 
> flow of prana throughout the body, but most
> important through 
> the "heart chakra." Kundalini "bliss" effects are
> all lokiya, and as 
> such are not confused with lokuttara realizations.
> 
> This condition of fully awakened Kundalini is known
> as a "tantric 
> paradise" or "pure land" and this is attained IN
> THIS BODY. 
> This "tantric paradise" then serves as the
> foundation for attaining 
> Buddhahood in the same lifetime. This tantric
> paradise means that one 
> is inhabiting a state of perpetual
> bliss-consciousness in this body. 
> This is supposed to be a very nice place to work out
> one's final 
> liberation, because dukkha is strongly pacified
> (though not 
> terminated, which is as always only via lokuttara
> nana) by this 
> attainment.
> 
> And just a note: Buddhahood is NOT "coming back
> again and again" or 
> in direct contradiction to anything taught in the
> Tripitaka about 
> final realization. It is still the blowing out of
> the defilements, 
> though through a somewhat different strategy. The
> final result is 
> still lokuttara, in other words--no god-realms,
> atman, or any of that 
> some folks believe. I have been saddened by some of
> the distortions 
> I've seen from people who should be much more
> thorough in 
> investigating things they wish to criticize. I see
> basic distortions 
> and misunderstanding on very basic points, for
> example, attributing 
> Advaita Vedanta views like "non-duality" to it. One
> particularly 
> serious misrepresentation of the Mahayana is this
> one:
> 
>
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html
> 
> This is like someone saying that the Abhidhamma is
> anariyan Dhamma 
> because it asserts inherently existent realities.
> That notion of 
> course IS wrong, but it isn't the Abhidhamma's
> fault; it would be 
> based solely on a misunderstanding of paramattha
> dhammas, someone 
> else's ideas I took at face-value without carefully
> investigating 
> what the proponents of the Abhidhamma are actually
> teaching.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you find this of some use. It will
> hopefully better 
> help you and I continue our conversations (and
> debates!) as well.
> 

 
5034 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Dear mike,
The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a poignant summary of 
the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. What a contrast to 
the Tipitaka!

Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern writers, I 
think their differences with the original teachings lie mostly in the 
pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, discouraging, 
almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) is a 
striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, uplifting style 
of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? 

Dan

 
 
5035 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 6:08pm
Subject: The corruptions of insight

 
  At the early stages of meditation practice, it is very easy to confuse 
the fruits of concentration with the fruits of insight and to confuse 
minor insights with major insights. Although such confusion is bound 
to arise to some degree or another, some of the sting of the 
confusion may be reduced by reviewing the "corruptions of insight" 
from time to time.



The Ten Corruptions of Insight (Ven. Mahasi's summary)

When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is able to keep 
exclusively to the present body-and-mind process, without looking back 
to past processes or ahead to future ones, then,
as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a brilliant light will 
appear to him. To one it will appear like the light of a lamp, to 
others like a flash of lightning, or like the radiance of the
moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for just one moment, 
with others it may last longer. 

There will also arise in him strong mindfulness pertaining to insight. 
As a result, all the successive arisings of bodily and mental 
processes will present themselves to the consciousness
engaged in noticing, as if coming to it of themselves; and mindfulness 
too seems as if alighting on the processes of itself. Therefore the 
meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind
prcess in which mindfulness fails to engage." 

His knowledge consisting in insight, here called "noticing," will be 
likewise keen, strong, and lucid. Consequently, he will discern 
clearly and in separate forms all the bodily and mental
processes noticed, as if cutting to pieces a bamboo sprout with a 
well-sharpened knife. Therefore the meditator then believes: "There is 
no body-and-mind process that cannot be
noticed." When examining the characteristics of impermanence, etc., or 
other aspects of reality, he understands everything quite clearly and 
at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge
derived from direct experience. 

Further, strong faith pertaining to insight arises in him. Under its 
influence, the meditator's mind, when engaged in noticing or thinking, 
is serene and without any disturbance; and when he
is engaged in recollecting the virtues of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and 
the Sangha, his mind quite easily gives itself over to them. There 
arise in him the wish to proclaim the Buddha's
Teaching, joyous confidence in the virtues of those engaged in 
meditation, the desire to advise dear friends and relatives to 
practise meditation, grateful remembrance of the help received
from his meditation master, his spiritual mentor, etc. These and many 
other similar mental processes will occur. 

There arises also rapture in its five grades, beginning with minor 
rapture. When purification of mind is gained, that rapture begins to 
appear by causing "goose-flesh," tremor in the
limbs, etc.; and now it produces a sublime feeling of happiness and 
exhilaration, filling the whole body with an exceedingly sweet and 
subtle thrill. Under its influence, he feels as if the
whole body had risen up and remained in the air without touching the 
ground, or as if it were seated on an air cushion, or as if it were 
floating up and down. 

There arises tranquillity of mind with the characteristic of 
quietening the disturbances of consciousness and its mental 
concomitants; and along with it appear mental agility, etc. When
walking, standing, sitting, or reclining there is, under the influence 
of these mental qualities, no disturbance of consciousness and its 
mental concomitants, nor heaviness, rigidity,
unwieldiness, sickness, or crookedness. Rather, his consciousness and 
its mental concomitants are tranquil through having reached the 
supreme relief in non-action. They are agile
in always functioning swiftly; they are pliant in being able to attend 
to any object desired; they are wieldy, in being able to attend to an 
object for any length of time desired; they are quite
lucid through their proficiency, that is, through the ease with which 
insight penetrates the object; they are also straight through being 
directed, inclined, and turned only towards wholesome
activities. 

There also arises a very sublime feeling of happiness suffusing all 
his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly joyous and he 
believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now,
indeed, I have found happiness never felt before," and he wants to 
tell others of his extraordinary experience. With reference to that 
rapture and happiness, which are aided by the factors
of tranquillity, etc., it was said: 

     Superhuman is the bliss of a monk
     Who, with mind at peace,
     Having entered a secluded place,
     Wins insight into Dhamma.
     When he fully comprehends
     The five groups' rise and fall,
     He wins to rapture and to joy -- 
     The Deathless this, for those who understand. 

                                                                                                                     
Dhammapada vv. 373-374 

There arises in him energy that is neither too lax nor too tense but 
is vigorous and acts evenly. For formerly his energy was sometimes 
lax, and so he was overpowered by sloth and
torpor; hence he could not notice keenly and continuously the objects 
as they became evident, and his understanding, too, was not clear. And 
at other times his energy was too tense, and
so he was overpowered by agitation, with the same result of being 
unable to notice keenly, etc. But now his energy is neither too lax 
nor too tense, but is vigorous and acts evenly; and so,
overcoming these shortcomings of sloth, torpor, and agitation, he is 
able to notice the objects present keenly and continuously, and his 
understanding is quite clear, too. 

There also arises in him strong equanimity associated with insight, 
which is neutral towards all formations. Under its influence he 
regards with neutrality even his examination of the nature
of these formations with respect to their being impermanent, etc.; and 
he is able to notice keenly and continuously the bodily and mental 
processes arising at the time. Then his activity of
noticing is carried on without effort, and proceeds, as it were, of 
itself. Also in adverting to the objects, there arises in him strong 
equanimity, by virtue of which his mind enters, as it were,
quickly into the objects of advertence. 

There arises further a subtle attachment of a calm nature that enjoys 
the insight graced with the "brilliant light" and the other qualities 
here described. The meditator, however, is not able
to discern it as a corruption but believes it to be just the very 
bliss of meditation. So meditators speak in praise of it thus: "Only 
now do I find full delight in meditation!" 

Having felt such rapture and happiness accompanied by the "brilliant 
light" and enjoying the very act of perfect noticing, which is ably 
functioning with ease and rapidity, the meditator now
believes: "Surely I must have attained to the supramundane path and 
fruition![33] Now I have finished the task of meditation." This is 
mistaking what is not the path for the path, and it is a
corruption of insight which usually takes place in the manner just 
described. But even if the meditator does not take the "brilliant 
light" and the other corruptions as an indication of the path
and fruition, still he feels delight in them. This is likewise a 
corruption of insight. Therefore, the knowledge consisting in 
noticing, even if quick in its functioning, is called "the early stage 
of
(or 'weak') knowledge of arising and passing away," if it is beset and 
corrupted by those corruptions. For the same reason the meditator is 
at that time not in a position to discern quite
distinctly the arising and passing away of bodily and mental 
processes.

 
5036 From: Herman 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:09pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Dear Dan,

If I may say, you have expressed in a very constructive and edifying 
manner some of the misgivings I have been dealing with for some time.
Thank you.

I have a srong Calvinistic background, and still feel an urgent sense 
of relief that I have somehow managed to escape from the bondage of 
the doctrines of predestination and double predestination.

Briefly, the first doctrine holds that God has elected, from before 
time, only a small number of people to salvation, and that God 
purposefully intervenes in the lives of these elect to achieve this 
goal.

Double predestination holds the same, with the added bonus that all 
those not elected to salvation, were actually elected by God to 
eternal damnation, and that God actively works in those lives to 
achieve that damnation.

Don't laugh, this is a world view for millions of people around the 
globe.

I find some of the teachings I encounter around these parts to be 
equally deterministic. In my view, determinism / fatalism renders the 
effort required to breathe futile. 

If I am not perfect now, I never will be.

Kind Regards


Herman


--- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> Dear mike,
> The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a poignant summary of 
> the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. What a contrast 
to 
> the Tipitaka!
> 
> Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern writers, I 
> think their differences with the original teachings lie mostly in 
the 
> pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, discouraging, 
> almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) is a 
> striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, uplifting 
style 
> of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? 
> 
> Dan

 
5037 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Hi Herman,
I've read some Sproul, which I found fascinating. There really is some 
similarity between the protestant doctrine of predestination and 
anatta. The Christian path to salvation is to develop faith (i.e. let 
the ego subside enough to let God guide your life). Christianity is 
much more vague about just HOW to do it though, and the Calvinists in 
particular tend to say "faith is a gift of the H.S.--you either have 
it or you don't". The Buddhist path is expounded in detail in the 
Tipitaka, and the development of wisdom (which is akin to the 
Christian notion of "faith") CAN be undertaken. 

Dan

 
5038 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> I have practised yoga and pranayama for a very long
> time and also studied Chinese healing systems etc.
> However I have no idea at all of any of these having
> anything to do with Buddhism or what the Buddha
> taught. For similar reasons, I have misgivings about
> whether tantra and the other practices you mention can
> really be considered 'Buddhist' in this sense and how
> they help develop any understanding or kusala at this
> moment.

What is a satisfactory yardstick for developing kusala (and 
forget "at this moment"--that is a sukkhavipassaka strategy; jhanas 
and the union of samatha & vipassana are the primary practices in 
Tibetan Buddhism, recall), such that one can determine what 
is "Buddhist" from what is not? Where does one draw the line? Only 
what is found in the Tipitaka (this seems to be the prevalent view 
here)? This seems far too limiting to me. Every major Zen and Tibetan 
school teaches ariyan Dhamma, but no debate can settle this; only 
direct application and experience of the fruits can. The proof in the 
pudding is always in the tasting. To mix metaphors, there a saying: 
if the book on ducks says one thing about their behavior, but you 
observe the ducks acting differently in the wild, believe the ducks, 
not the books. Even according to the Buddha what is found in the 
Tipitaka only addresses a handful worth of the leaves found in the 
entire forest, so this is not suprising.

There are two very general currents of thought I have observed 
regarding the Dhamma, trends that generalize even more broadly in 
society into orthodoxy and heterodoxy. The orthodox version says the 
Dhamma is a static entity; the heterodox version that accepts the 
Dhamma as a dynamic process transforming moment-to-moment, 
necessarily, because there are no static entites to be found 
anywhere. I am, and must be, of the heterodox category. I have seen 
too many different approaches work to pass judgment on any of them. I 
have seen the fruits both in my own life and in those of others. For 
me this is not a matter for doubt.

Each approach has its advantages, each has its disadvantages. I have 
seen no indication of the relative superiority or inferiority of any 
of them. I have seen the relative helpfulness or unhelpfulness of 
traditions for those of specific accumulations, though. In general 
terms, those who actually practice and sincerely try to embody the 
teachings of a given school always seem to come out as friends to be 
associate with who are worthy of emulation. To me, anyway.

 
5039 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Dear dan,
Is that R.C. Sproul , the american Christian writer? If so I
found him a fine philosopher. His book          
  Not a Chance : The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and
Cosmology 
is excellent .

robert  
 


--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Hi Herman,
> I've read some Sproul, which I found fascinating. There really
> is some 
> similarity between the protestant doctrine of predestination
> and 
> anatta. The Christian path to salvation is to develop faith
> (i.e. let 
> the ego subside enough to let God guide your life).
> Christianity is 
> much more vague about just HOW to do it though, and the
> Calvinists in 
> particular tend to say "faith is a gift of the H.S.--you
> either have 
> it or you don't". The Buddhist path is expounded in detail in
> the 
> Tipitaka, and the development of wisdom (which is akin to the 
> Christian notion of "faith") CAN be undertaken. 
> 
> Dan
> 


 
5040 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:35pm
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik
> 
> Thanks for your detailed explanation.  It helps me to
> understand where some of our members are coming from.
> 
> My immediate reaction is, to return to an earlier
> thread raised by you, that this is an area of definite
> departure between the Mahayana and the Therevada
> traditions. 

There are real departures. At the moment the biggest ones are how the 
fruits are categorized (ten vs. four in Tipitaka) AND the difference 
in ultimate aim and the definition of a "Buddha." These are the main 
areas I'm trying to understand, areas in which I have doubt (and will 
continue to have until such is resolved directly). I have found when 
texts disagree on a point, there is often a very rich vein to be 
mined by exploring that difference. I find exploring these 
differences very revealing of underlying theory as well.

> The concept of 'black deeds [being]
> transformed by panna into the purest and most
> indestructible substance known to man' would seem to
> contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. 

Would SEEM to, that is the key. Seem to. There is no "transformation" 
of akusala sankharas into kusala sankharas, if that's what you mean. 
It is a transmuation of all the base characteristics of the 
personality, via panna, into strenghts. Hatred is transmuted into 
compassion, for example, through the process or "reversals," a 
powerful way of dealing with akusala, given it effects transformation 
not only at the level of restraining bad behavior, but by helping one 
rewire one's categories to see the world in a different way due to an 
_epistemological_ reorganization of reality.

For example, there is the practice of "pure vision" where one 
visualizes all beings as already perfected Buddhas. This plays into 
the teaching found in "Mind Training in Eight Verses" where "when 
someone whom I have helped and in whome I have placed great hope 
harms me with great injustice, may I see that one as a sacred friend, 
for they are rarely met."

This takes a typical human problem--people treating us badly--and 
provides a new lens to view the "problem" through. In this case the 
tormenter is acting in the capacity of "sacred friend," providing 
opportunity to practice forbearance and restrain anger. In this way 
this being of "bad disposition" is actually a greater friend than any 
other, because this friend is providing the opportunity to overcome 
mental afflictions. Through their kindness we can terminate the 
causes to see this happen again through mindfulness at the moment 
we'd normally respond with anger.

I have used this whenever the opportunity arises (and I'm mindful 
enough to recall it at that moment) because it works so well. Indeed 
it's the only thing that's kept me sane given some of the vipaka 
that's been ripening on me the past few years. Without this my 
presence as a Dhamma practitioner in the first place would be in 
question. It has literally saved my life. This also really shows in 
the behavior of those who practice it. It is the most powerful 
antidote to vyapada and patigha I have ever tried, and for someone 
with a very big accumulation of these two, I should know whereof I 
speak.

Extrapolate this practice now, to everyone. To see everyone as 
a "sacred friend." How will that change how you interact with people 
if you suspect they are all holy beings here as your sacred friend, 
here to ripen you? That is, very generrally, the process of 
transformating "bad" into "good."

> Likewise, the concept of a source or kind of kusala
> outside those enumerated in the suttas would also be
> contradictory. 

Contradictory to what, specifically? The only "contradiction" that 
matters is if it contradicts that which leads to abandoning akusala, 
cultivating kusala, and developing the mind with the panna that 
realizes the lokuttara nana the permanently abandons the samyojanas. 
Can you point to a case where the practices I outlined do NOT fall 
into these three categories, and why, specifically, they can't?

> To particlarise, if tantric bliss is
> kusala, what kind of kusala citta is it and what is
> its object?

I have no idea. My best guess at the moment is it _could_ be a 
jhanacitta with the factor of piti energized by viriya to an 
extraordinarily high degree. Someone raised this question with me in 
a private email and it's a very intersting idea, one I hadn't 
considered before.

I think you raise a very interesting (and important) question, one I 
am now inclined to research: how do the Tibetans categorize the 
cittas arising in this process? I have not seen any documentation on 
this, but given the thoroughness of the Tibetan scholars I can't 
imagine no one else has addressed this in the past thousand years. 
I'll research this point and get back to you, because now I really 
want to know as well.

> Yes, I'm sure it will.  Funny thing about our debates
> though, Erik.  They usually die at an early stage,
> with me waiting for an answer from you.  The latest
> example of this was my recent request for your
> explanation of the term 'vipassana' as used in the
> context of a statement you made.

The definition for vipassana in Tibetan perfectly matches that in the 
Tipitaka. No point in further defining that on which we agree. That 
includes all the levels of vipassana-nana enumerated in the 
Abhidhamma.

>  I seem to recall
> other examples (eg. the meaning of the Eightfold Path
> as found in the Mahayana texts).

Taught identically in Tibetan Buddhism. Jon, if in doubt always 
remember this: the Tibetans accept the Tipitaka as the word of the 
Buddha AS IS.

 
5041 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  I believe it is the same R.C. Sproul, but I'm not familiar with "Not a 
chance..." I read "Willing to Believe", which is a historical survey 
of Christian doctrines about the power of free will to develop faith. 

> Dear dan,
> Is that R.C. Sproul , the american Christian writer? If so I
> found him a fine philosopher. His book          
>   Not a Chance : The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and
> Cosmology 
> is excellent .
> 
> robert  
>  
> 
> 
> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> > Hi Herman,
> > I've read some Sproul, which I found fascinating. There really
> > is some 
> > similarity between the protestant doctrine of predestination
> > and 
> > anatta. The Christian path to salvation is to develop faith
> > (i.e. let 
> > the ego subside enough to let God guide your life).
> > Christianity is 
> > much more vague about just HOW to do it though, and the
> > Calvinists in 
> > particular tend to say "faith is a gift of the H.S.--you
> > either have 
> > it or you don't". The Buddhist path is expounded in detail in
> > the 
> > Tipitaka, and the development of wisdom (which is akin to the 
> > Christian notion of "faith") CAN be undertaken. 
> > 
> > Dan
> > 

 
5042 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)]

 
  Hi, Sarah (and all) -
       


> Viriya energizes or 'cheers on' (o.k. I'll drop
> cheerleader) the citta to cognize or be conscious of
> its object and the other cetasikas to perform their
> functions regardless of whether they are kusala or
> akusala, and regardless, in conventional language, as
> to whether they seem to be energetic or lazy ones...As
> we have discussed, the nture of the viriya is
> different at each moment, depending on the other
> 'ingredients' it is combined with, but I don't see
> that we can say it is stronger or weaker depending on
> whether it is accompanied by sati or acompanied by
> thina and middha (sloth & torpor) for example.
> 
===============================
       With regard to viriya, what do you understand to be the difference 
between it and jivitindriya (sp?), the latter of which I think of as an 
"enlivening" or "life-giving" or "energizing" faculty? (I'm trying to get a 
conceptual grasp of some of the cetasikas, and their differences.)
       One more point: There are certain universal factors which occur in any 
act of discernment/consciousness such as phassa (contact), viriya (energy), 
and sa~n~na (marking/recognizing). It almost seems that the co-occurrence of 
such universal factors, as a group, constitutes by itself, the 
citta/vi~n~nana. Most specifically, what I wonder about here is what can be 
the difference between phassa and vi~n~nana; there hardly seems a be a hair's 
difference betwen the two.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5043 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 0:42am
Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)]

 
  --- Howard wrote:

> It almost seems that the co-occurrence of 
> such universal factors, as a group, constitutes by itself, the 
> citta/vi~n~nana. Most specifically, what I wonder about here is 
what can be 
> the difference between phassa and vi~n~nana; there hardly seems a 
be a hair's 
> difference betwen the two.

I came across an interesting notion once long ago and more recently, 
one I've been trying to get more information on. It's called 
ekacittakkhanika-paticca-samupptada, meaning dependent origination 
within a single moment of citta. 

Just speculating on what the Abhidhamma says on this, but it seems 
that this is how one would distinguish between vinnana and phassa in 
a way that answers your question.

 
5044 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) -

In a message dated 4/30/01 2:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes to Erik:


> The concept of 'black deeds [being]
> transformed by panna into the purest and most
> indestructible substance known to man' would seem to
> contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. 
> 
==================================
       It seems to me that in the material of Erik's which I quote below, the 
intention is metaphorical, so that it is not that the black deeds themselves 
are literally transformed into wisdom and liberation, but that a powerful mix 
of right mindfulness, concentration, and effort serves to uproot defilements 
which are the kammic traces of akusala intentions and actions (the black 
deeds), leading to diamond-like wisdom and liberation. Incidentally, when 
Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes it as a 
process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive dispositions/inclinations 
(sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very deepest 
ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - not so very 
different, I think, except for the use of metaphorical, poetic language vs 
more straightforward language, so that the "consuming" of akusala kamma by a 
purificatory alchemical fire becomes, in more pedestrian speech, the 
uprooting of kammic traces and the destruction of defilements in the oven of 
mindfulness (and other insight factors). What Erik wrote was:

> ... tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire where
> akusala kamma is 
> consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna
> into the purest 
> and most indestructible substance known to man.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5045 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 0:54am
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  Dan wrote:
> > This brings up an interesting question, though,
> > about why Narada would 
> > write his comment. He was a wise and learned
> > bhikkhu, and I don't 
> > think he would make such a silly error unless
> > there's more to it than 
> > meets the eye. B. Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of
> > A.S.) writes: "Viriya 
> > is the state or action of one who is vigorous...Its
> > proximate cause is 
> > a sense of urgency or... anything that stirs one to
> > vigorous action." 
> > Vigorous action arising out of a sense of urgency
> > just doesn't seem to 
> > apply to just ANY ol' kusala or akusala citta, in particular
> > those with thina 
> > and middha. 

Sarah:
> For me, this is a little misleading, or perhaps that
> depends on how one u'stands action. Flat out, unable
> to move with dosa, say, and yet there is a sense of
> urgency which stirs, not one, but the citta to be
> fixed on the object at that moment too.

Dan: 
I don't have any texts with me, but B. Bodhi's use of "urgency" and 
"vigorous" match closely the idea I have of "viriya" as presented in 
Vibhanga. Some actions and cittas are vigorous, some are not. In those 
that are more vigorous, viriya is more prominent. When viriya is 
subtle, as when thina and middha are strong, it seems to merge with 
jivitindriya, or maybe it's that your description of viriya is closer 
to my understanding of jivitindriya. How do you think about 
jivitindriya and how does it differ from viriya?

 
5046 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 0:57am
Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)]

 
  > I came across an interesting notion once long ago and more recently, 
> one I've been trying to get more information on. It's called 
> ekacittakkhanika-paticca-samupptada, meaning dependent origination 
> within a single moment of citta. 
Is it WITHIN a single citta or between cittas? Vibhanga has a nice 
(but dry and opaque) description of this. A better, but very brief 
discussion can be found in Nyanaponika's "Abhidhamma Studies" (a very 
nice book).

 
5047 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 9:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi, Sarah -


> Hi Howard,
> 
> This was interesting too...
> 
> --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all (especially
> Amara) -
> > 
> >        I've been looking over the "Summary" again,
> > particularly the articles 
> > on Samatha and Vipassana. 
> ..............................................
> >        I suspect that this post may be disappointing
> > to a number of you, and, 
> > for that, I am most regretful. Please do understand
> > that I have come to learn 
> > more about Abhidhamma and to have greater repect for
> > it than ever, since 
> > being on this list. I do, indeed, intend to continue
> > a serious study of it, 
> > and I would very much like to continue to
> > participate in discussions of it 
> > and other matters on the list. 
> 
> I hope you don't mind that I've 'truncated' all the
> meat out of your neat message.
> 
> Just a couple (actually, no idea how many as yet) of
> brief comments:
> 
> 
> 1. I doubt anyone would be disappointed to hear that
> you find this book is not such easy reading!! 
> 
> 2. It's certainly not compulsory reading for these
> discussions!
> 
> 3. There are no rules about what Buddhist books or
> texts we all read, how we read them or in what order.
> 
> 4. Unlike Num & Rob and the other bright larks that
> have the capacity and accumulations to read abhidhamma
> and other texts from cover to cover, I'm more like a
> slug or snail that takes its time.....I dip in here
> and there (actually, maybe I'm more a woodpecker,
> Num), go forwards, backwards and sideways...What I
> have always been able to do, however, is to consider
> pretty carefully what I read or hear.
> 
> 5. At one of the discussions with Khun Sujin and also
> under the palm trees by the pool, I've been dipping
> into Nina's translation of the same book (can be
> downloaded from Zolag or abhidhamm.org websites). This
> is not such a literal translation and she also adds a
> lot of very helpful notes. You may find it easier
> reading. One problem, though, is that the original
> Thai book was written from lectures and so it is very
> difficult to translate and quite an undetrtaking by
> both Amara and Nina.
> 
> 6. Even when we were looking at it together with Khun
> Sujin (thanks Betty), we were skipping over the intro,
> jumping to Ch3 and then reading a little and
> discussing what we'd read....abhidhamma is here and
> now, not just in the text. 
> 
> K.S. kept reminding us that we should remember the
> purpose when we study or read or discuss the details:
> it should be to understand more about the realities
> appearing in our lives right now!!
> 
> So, Howard, enjoy reading whatever you find useful and
> interesting and share anything you like!
> 
> Maybe time for another dip in the pool...After all it
> is a holiday (thanks to today being Buddha's birthday
> in Hong Kong although it's not 'til next week in Bkk).
> 
> Sarah
> 
==================================
       Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly going through Bhikkhu 
Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put forward questions about the 
material there to you folks from time to time. (In fact, I already sent off a 
couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a little while ago.) This 
is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my pariyatti is concerned. 
I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number by concentrating on what 
seem to be the more interesting ones.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5048 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:05am
Subject: Problems with dependent origination

 
  Speaking of paticca samuppada, there's one thing I have always found 
bothersome about its ordering I hope some here may help provide 
insight into.

Specifically, the issues I have are with the following:

sankhara paccaya vi��ana, vi��ana paccaya nama-rupa, nama-rupa 
paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya phassa.

This implies the vi��ana arises in sole dependence on sankhara, but 
this leads to a question: how can one meaningfully speak of 
consciousness (citta) without arammana? To me there is no such thing, 
because consciousness is _defined_ by its relationship to aramanna, 
_unless_ by this forumlation the Buddha is saying something else 
about the nature of awareness, that it does _not_ depend on a 
subject, which to me defies all reason. How can vi��ana possibly 
perform the function of being aware if there is no phassa at this 
point?

I continue to find the entire formulation of paticca samuppada 
suspect because of this sequence, and given the comprehensiveness of 
Buddhist thinkers I can't imagine my concerns have gone unaddressed, 
given the centrality of paticca samuppada.

 
5049 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:09am
Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)]

 
  --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:


> Is it WITHIN a single citta or between cittas? Vibhanga has a nice 
> (but dry and opaque) description of this. A better, but very brief 
> discussion can be found in Nyanaponika's "Abhidhamma Studies" (a 
very 
> nice book).

All Nanaponika Thera did was whet my appetite for this without 
providing any supporting detail other than the fact that this is 
formulated differently depending on the type of citta. And it IS 
within a single moment of citta, as far as I know, from avijja 
through jara-marana within not a vithi but the citta itself 
(ekacittakkhanika, and all that).

 
 
5050 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2001 9:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Hi, Dan (and Mike, and all) -

In a message dated 4/30/01 5:50:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Dan 
writes:


> Dear mike,
> The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a poignant summary of 
> the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers. What a contrast to 
> the Tipitaka!
> 
> Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern writers, I 
> think their differences with the original teachings lie mostly in the 
> pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive, discouraging, 
> almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery) is a 
> striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging, uplifting style 
> of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? 
> 
> Dan
> 
===================================
       Thank you for this post. I have observed streams of thought within 
Theravada (and Mahayana, though I an less knowkedgeable there), both ancient 
and modern, that are uplifting, encouraging, and right-in-line with the 
Buddhadhamma as I read it in the Tipitaka (mainly from the Sutta Pitaka in my 
case). But I have also encountered backwaters that tend to depression, 
fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the impossibility of 
"getting there from here", and others of which are contrary to middle-way and 
anattata aspects of the Dhamma. I think that each of us has to be careful, 
and has to remember that that which is conducive to well being and to moving 
towards freedom is what we should treat as Sat-Dhamma, and that which leads 
us away the goal should be avoided as wrong view.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5051 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:41am
Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination

 
  Hi Sam!
You wrote:
> This implies the vi��ana arises in sole dependence on sankhara
SOLE dependence? Are you sure?

 
5052 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:56am
Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination

 
  --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:

> You wrote:
> > This implies the vi��ana arises in sole dependence on sankhara
> SOLE dependence? Are you sure?

Dan, I read what I wrote at fiurst, and then very consciously deleted 
that word. Then I though about it a bit more, and then very 
consciously put it back in before hitting "Send." You tell me why. :)

 
5053 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:15am
Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination

 
  > > > This implies the vi��ana arises in sole dependence on sankhara
> > SOLE dependence? Are you sure?
> 
> Dan, I read what I wrote at fiurst, and then very consciously 
deleted 
> that word. Then I though about it a bit more, and then very 
> consciously put it back in before hitting "Send." You tell me 
why. :)

Here's a guess. You wrote "soul" dependence the first time. It didn't 
look right, so you changed it to "sole." That looked better!

No, no, that can't be right. How about: You know darn well that it is 
not "sole" dependence because nothing in paticca-sammuppada is "sole" 
dependence, but you wanted to test us! 

No, that can't be it either. You weren't sure whether the dependence 
was "sole" or not and thought you'd better ask.

No, that doesn't seem quite right. Or maybe you were clinging to 
unpleasant mental sensations of doubt and honest-to-goodness dosa 
["This silly Theravada crap doesn't make any sense!" ;) ], and your 
clinging obscured the truth from you.

No, that doesn't seem right either.

Hmmm... Maybe you realized that if the word "sole" was not in there, 
your question would be answered, but you still wanted to pose your 
original question. Is that closer? 

If so, then the question is, why would you still want to pose a 
question that you already knew the answer to? A guess: You felt like 
you owned the question and didn't want to let it go? 

Good ideas nirodha, silly posts nirodha. Or is it good-ideas-nirodha 
paccaya silly posts? 

You tell me. :)

 
5054 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 6:03am
Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination

 
  --- Dan wrote:

> Hmmm... Maybe you realized that if the word "sole" was not in 
there, 
> your question would be answered, but you still wanted to pose your 
> original question. Is that closer? 

How about just, "why not?" I don't always have a rational explanation 
for everything I do. Just going by the Suttas I've read I haven't 
seen any satisfactory explanation of paticca samuppada that talks 
about the conditions pertaining to each nidana. My reference up to 
now has been the Maha-Nidana Sutta (and to a more limited extent the 
Visuddhimagga):

"21. "I have said: `Consciousness conditions mind-and-body.' . . . If 
consciousness were not to come into the mother's womb, would mind-and-
body develop there?" "No, Lord."

"Or if consciousness, having entered the mother's womb, were to be 
deflected, would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?" "No, 
Lord." "And if the consciousness of such a tender young being, boy or 
girl, were thus cut off, would mind-and-body grow, develop and 
mature?" "No, Lord." "Therefore, Ananda, just this, namely 
consciousness, is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of 
mind-and-body.

22. "I have said: `Mind-and-body conditions consciousness.' . . . If 
consciousness did not find a resting-place in mind-and-body, would 
there subsequently be an arising and coming-to-be of birth, ageing, 
death and suffering?" "No, Lord." "Therefore, Ananda, just this, 
namely mind-and-body, is the root, the cause, the origin, the 
condition of consciousness. Thus far the cause, the origin, the 
condition of consciousness. Thus far then, Ananda, we can trace birth 
and decay, death and falling into other states and being reborn, thus 
far extends the way of designation, of concepts, thus far is the 
sphere of understanding, thus far the round goes as far as can be 
discerned in this life, namely to mind-and-body together with 
consciousness."

The Buddha here is saying that nama-rupa and vinnana condition each 
other. Yet everywhere else I've seen the nidanas treated as 
sequential states with the most common formulation being X paccaya Y 
in what looks to me like a time-linear sequence. Unless dependent 
origination can be viewed apart from temporal linearity, with these 
elements arising together as mutual or concomitant conditions, in the 
way that cetasikas arise as the concomitants of their respective 
cittas.

Speaking of linear sequence, if one considers that vipaka from 
sankharas is consciousness in the form of vipakacitta, I can see this 
relationship working more clearly. However, consciousness still 
requires an object and phassa, so the placement still doesn't make 
too much sense if these are time-linear. Also, the Buddha notes that 
after birth, nama-rupa and vinnana serve as mutual conditions for one 
another. This would imply to me that I would have to chuck my present 
linear conception of paticca samuppada for this to make more sense.

Any thoughts?

> Good ideas nirodha, silly posts nirodha. Or is it good-ideas-
nirodha 
> paccaya silly posts? 
> 
> You tell me. :)

Good posts paccaya good posts. The vipaka just hasn't manifested 
yet. :)

 
5055 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Dear Howard and Dan,
> > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern
> writers, I 
> > think their differences with the original teachings lie
> mostly in the 
> > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive,
> discouraging, 
> > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery)
> is a 
> > striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging,
> uplifting style 
> > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? 
> > 
> > Dan
> > 
> ===================================
>         I have also encountered backwaters that tend to
> depression, 
> fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the
> impossibility of 
> "getting there from here", and others of which are contrary to
> middle-way and 
> anattata aspects of the Dhamma. 

_________
Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting
fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by lottery,
the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is
"contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on my
posts since I am asking.
thanks
robert


 
5056 From: robert 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 8:09am
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) -
> when 
> Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes 
it as a 
> process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive 
dispositions/inclinations 
> (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very 
deepest 
> ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - 
____________
Could you explain this more Howard. I haven't seen vipassana 
described in this way in the Tipitaka.
Robertr

 
5057 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Problems with dependent origination

 
  Hi, Erik -

In a message dated 4/30/01 1:07:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Erik writes:


> Speaking of paticca samuppada, there's one thing I have always found 
> bothersome about its ordering I hope some here may help provide 
> insight into.
> 
> Specifically, the issues I have are with the following:
> 
> sankhara paccaya vi��ana, vi��ana paccaya nama-rupa, nama-rupa 
> paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya phassa.
> 
> This implies the vi��ana arises in sole dependence on sankhara, but 
> this leads to a question: how can one meaningfully speak of 
> consciousness (citta) without arammana? To me there is no such thing, 
> because consciousness is _defined_ by its relationship to aramanna, 
> _unless_ by this forumlation the Buddha is saying something else 
> about the nature of awareness, that it does _not_ depend on a 
> subject, which to me defies all reason. How can vi��ana possibly 
> perform the function of being aware if there is no phassa at this 
> point?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       First of all, I don't think that in the presenting of the 12-link 
wheel of dependent origination it is implied that link i+1 has link i as the 
*only* condition for its arising. In fact, elsewhere I believe that it is 
implied that *several* conditions coming together are what typically serve as 
cause for the arising of a new condition. Also, in certain formulations of 
paticca samupadda, vi~n~nana and namarupa are explicity said to be mutually 
directly dependent, like two bundles of straw each supporting the other, so 
that were either bundle to fall, so would the other. Moreover, since the 
wheel of dependent origination, both in the 3-lifetime interpretation of 
Buddhaghosa and in the moment-to-moment interpretation of, for example, 
Budhhadasa, is, indeed, a *wheel*, every instance of a link in that wheel, 
indirectly, has previous instances of all the other links, and even instances 
of the same link, as conditions for its arising, so that, for example, one 
moment of vi~n~nana is conditioned by previous moments of vi~n~nana.
--------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> I continue to find the entire formulation of paticca samuppada 
> suspect because of this sequence, and given the comprehensiveness of 
> Buddhist thinkers I can't imagine my concerns have gone unaddressed, 
> given the centrality of paticca samuppada.
================================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5058 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 4/30/01 1:07:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard 
writes:


> (In fact, I already sent off a 
> 
========================
       I was in error here. My questions were actually directed yo *you*! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5059 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 4/30/01 7:44:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> Dear Howard and Dan,
> > > > Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the modern
> > writers, I 
> > > think their differences with the original teachings lie
> > mostly in the 
> > > pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive,
> > discouraging, 
> > > almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by lottery)
> > is a 
> > > striking contrast to the active, rousing, encouraging,
> > uplifting style 
> > > of the old. Which is more helpful at the present moment? 
> > > 
> > > Dan
> > > 
> > ===================================
> >         I have also encountered backwaters that tend to
> > depression, 
> > fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the
> > impossibility of 
> > "getting there from here", and others of which are contrary to
> > middle-way and 
> > anattata aspects of the Dhamma. 
> 
> _________
> Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting
> fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by lottery,
> the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is
> "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on my
> posts since I am asking.
> thanks
> robert
> 
============================
       Why would you think that I have found such promotion of fatalism etc 
in the writings on this list, and particularly within your writings? In fact, 
I have not. I certainly have never interpreted anything you have written as 
fatalistic, discouraging, or depressing - quite the contrary, in fact. But I 
do, from time to time, come across sentiments, in various places (other than 
here) which suggest such things as the time for the Buddha's dispensation 
being past (and thus all practice being basically hopeless), and for example 
that no one can attain the jhanas any longer. I also have come across other 
mistatements of basic elements of the Dhamma such as interpreting the sabhava 
of paramattha dhammas as contradicting their emptiness, a doctrine which the 
knowledgeable members of this list, including yourself, have refuted when i 
inquired about it. So, while I can't speak for anyone else, I can tell you 
truly that what I wrote has no relationship to anything you or others have 
written on this list. I hope this clarifies matters for you on this issue.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5060 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:02am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting
> fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by lottery,
It's not so much writers promoting these things as readers being left 
with these impressions--two very different things. I've written about 
this on the list and off-list several times before, as have many 
other dsg dabblers. I'd be glad to write about it again but it will 
have to wait a few days...

> the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is
> "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on my
> posts since I am asking.
These are Howard's words and go a step beyond mine, so perhaps he 
could explain this better.

Dan

 
5061 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 6:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 4/30/01 8:15:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> --- Howard wrote:
> > Hi, Jon (and Erik, and all) -
> > when 
> > Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he describes 
> it as a 
> > process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive 
> dispositions/inclinations 
> > (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the very 
> deepest 
> > ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - 
> ____________
> Could you explain this more Howard. I haven't seen vipassana 
> described in this way in the Tipitaka.
> Robertr
> 
=============================
       Sure, I'll be happy to. I don't have the time to do so right now, 
because I will want to quote from a "Goenka-authorized" book, but I will say 
more about this soon. Perhaps I haven't represented Goenka's position 
faithfully, because when I read it, it seemed at the time to be rather 
standard. His meditation technique sure does seem to be effective, but that 
doesn't necessarily imply that he actually understands correctly how it 
works. In any case, I will write some more about this soon, and iIlook 
forward to discussing it with you.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5062 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:22am
Subject: Re: Problems with dependent origination

 
  > > Hmmm... Maybe you realized that if the word "sole" was not in 
> there, 
> > your question would be answered, but you still wanted to pose 
your 
> > original question. Is that closer? 
> 
> How about just, "why not?" 
Sounds good to me! It was fun taking you up on your invitation to 
speculate, though...

>My reference up to 
> now has been the Maha-Nidana Sutta (and to a more limited extent 
the 
> Visuddhimagga):
The Mahanidana sutta has a slightly different formulation than 
elsewhere in Tipitaka. Have you read B. Bodhi's introduction to this 
sutta in his translation (with commentaries)? It's been quite awhile 
since I've ploughed through it, but it is good (although I do not 
remember much detail).

> The Buddha here is saying that nama-rupa and vinnana condition each 
> other. Yet everywhere else I've seen the nidanas treated as 
> sequential states with the most common formulation being X paccaya 
Y 
> in what looks to me like a time-linear sequence. 
"Paccaya" doesn't imply a time-linear sequence. After all, doesn't 
the round occur WITHIN each moment of consciousness? (see Vibhanga) 
Nor does it imply that each condition is the sole condition. Nor does 
it imply that if one of the conditions is present, the next 
necessarily arises (in particular, vedana paccaya tanha, but vedana 
does not IMPLY tanha automatically follows). 

Unless dependent 
> origination can be viewed apart from temporal linearity, with these 
> elements arising together as mutual or concomitant conditions, in 
the 
> way that cetasikas arise as the concomitants of their respective 
> cittas.

> Speaking of linear sequence, if one considers that vipaka from 
> sankharas is consciousness in the form of vipakacitta, I can see 
this 
> relationship working more clearly. However, consciousness still 
> requires an object and phassa, so the placement still doesn't make 
> too much sense if these are time-linear. Also, the Buddha notes 
that 
> after birth, nama-rupa and vinnana serve as mutual conditions for 
one 
> another. This would imply to me that I would have to chuck my 
present 
> linear conception of paticca samuppada for this to make more sense.
> 
> Any thoughts?
The teaching is deep. One meaning of this is that the paticca-
sammupada can be looked at from many different angles--one of which 
is "time-linear", but that's not necessary.

> > Good ideas nirodha, silly posts nirodha. Or is it good-ideas-
> nirodha 
> > paccaya silly posts? 
> > 
> > You tell me. :)
> 
> Good posts paccaya good posts. The vipaka just hasn't manifested 
> yet. :)
Good point...

 
5063 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:32am
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Dear Robert and Howard et al.,

Howard wrote:
> > > when 
> > > Goenka describes the progress of vipassana meditation, he 
describes 
> > it as a 
> > > process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive 
> > dispositions/inclinations 
> > > (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the uprooting of the 
very 
> > deepest 
> > > ones, followed by the attainment of insight and liberation - 

Robert wrote:
> > Could you explain this more Howard. I haven't seen vipassana 
> > described in this way in the Tipitaka.

This is how I hear Goenka too. SOMEWHERE in Vissudhimagga it says 
this is NOT how things work (Goenka: "eliminate the old stock of 
sankhara" by establishing equanimity--the old sankharas bubble up to 
the surface and pass away when you stop generating new ones in the 
contemplation of sankharuppekka-nyana. When the old ones are all 
gone, voila!, liberation. It's been many years since my last Goenka 
retreat, so my memory may be a bit sketchy. Maybe Howard can help us 
more...). On the other hand, Vism. does discuss the gross, medium, 
and subtle kilesa and the methods of dealing with them (pardon me for 
using such an offending phrase, Jon!).

 
5064 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Ah! Sorry Howard, I must have been feeling sensitive. Thanks for
this. 

Just to add. I think on this list some of us, including me, do
suggest that the path is profound and takes much investigation
and circumspection; whereas sometimes, in some quarters of
buddhism,  it is  presented as a relatively straightforward
process. This emphasis on preliminaries may seem discouraging if
one thinks that the main factors are  a lot of effort and a
quiet place to sit.
However, for the brave this should only increase their
determination to give up the clinging to self. The more one
understands anatta and conditionality the more any moment in
life can be seen. The theory is very supportive of right
practice; and too the more 'life' is broken into only a moment
of nama or rupa the better the theory is comprehended. 

We are human and we have heard the sublime Dhamma of a
Sammasambuddha. He has explained the Dhamma in manifold ways, he
has explained all types of kusala. There are so many
opportunties in a day to develop different types of kusala. We
pick an insect out of the toilet bowl - kusala. We think kindly
of someone we pass in the street- kusala. We are patient when
someone is abrubt at work- kusala. We are patient with a
headache- kusala. Consider Dhamma -kusala. And so much more. And
this isn't even mentioning satipatthana.
 All kusala becomes easier to develop the more it is known that
it is anatta. Then we feel "let anything happen": illness,
accident, loss of livelihood, even death. Let it come because it
is conditioned . The realities are only namas and rupas - they
are insignificant, not us. Then one can even reflect when some
great pain or loss strikes that it is not my body or my mind or
my feeling. Understanding is at so many different levels - if we
can't do that yet one shouldn't feel discouraged- but this is
where it does lead. 
Then too one doesn't mind if citta is not calm - it is not "our"
citta. This is the type of detachment that is worth striving
for. 
robert

I have also encountered backwaters that tend to
> > > depression, 
> > > fatalism, and discouragement, some of which suggest the
> > > impossibility of 
> > > "getting there from here", and others of which are
> contrary to
> > > middle-way and 
> > > anattata aspects of the Dhamma. 
> > 
> > _________
> > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting
> > fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by
> lottery,
> > the impossibilty of getting there from here and where it is
> > "contrary to anatta aspects of the Dhamma"? Perhaps focus on
> my
> > posts since I am asking.
> > thanks
> > robert
> > 
> ============================
>        Why would you think that I have found such promotion of
> fatalism etc 
> in the writings on this list, and particularly within your
> writings? In fact, 
> I have not. I certainly have never interpreted anything you
> have written as 
> fatalistic, discouraging, or depressing - quite the contrary,
> in fact. But I 
> do, from time to time, come across sentiments, in various
> places (other than 
> here) which suggest such things as the time for the Buddha's
> dispensation 
> being past (and thus all practice being basically hopeless),
> and for example 
> that no one can attain the jhanas any longer. I also have come
> across other 
> mistatements of basic elements of the Dhamma such as
> interpreting the sabhava 
> of paramattha dhammas as contradicting their emptiness, a
> doctrine which the 
> knowledgeable members of this list, including yourself, have
> refuted when i 
> inquired about it. So, while I can't speak for anyone else, I
> can tell you 
> truly that what I wrote has no relationship to anything you or
> others have 
> written on this list. I hope this clarifies matters for you on
> this issue.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                
>             
 
5065 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 10:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> > Could you give us examples of where anyone is promoting
> > fatalism, discouragement, depression, enlightenment by
> lottery,
> It's not so much writers promoting these things as readers
> being left 
> with these impressions--two very different things. I've
> written about 
> this on the list and off-list several times before, as have
> many 
> other dsg dabblers. I'd be glad to write about it again but it
> will 
> have to wait a few days...
> 
Well as I just wrote to Howard I may have been oversensitive
here. What I got from your earlier post is that you feel some
dsg(and perhaps Nina's writings?) are correctly portraying the
Dhamma BUT don't put enough emphasis on effort and some other
factors of the path? Perhaps too much stress on anatta and
theoretical understanding? In other words, as you indicated, a
difference in pedagogy rather than content?
Anyway look forward to further discussion.
Robert


 
5066 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 8:54am
Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Hi, Robert -

       Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may shed some light 
on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the original):

***********************************************************
Pain exists, misery exists. Crying will not free anyone of misery. How is one 
to come out of it? How is one to live with it? A doctor treating a sick 
person must know what the sickness is, and what the fundamental cause of the 
sickness is. If there is a cause, then there must be a way out, by removing 
the cause. Once the cause is removed, the sickness will automatically be 
removed. Tberefore steps must be taken to eradicate the cause. First one must 
accept the fact of suffering. Everywhere suffering exists; this is a 
universal truth. But it becomes a noble truth when one starts observing it 
without reacting, because anyone who does so is bound to become a noble, 
saintly person. When one starts observing the First Noble Truth, the truth of 
suffering, then very quickly the cause of suffering becomes clear, and one 
starts observing it also; this is the Second Noble Truth. If the cause is 
eradicated, then suffering is eradicated; this is the Third Noble Truth--the 
eradication of suffering. To achieve its eradication one must take steps; 
this is the Fourth Noble Truth--the way to end suffering by eradicating its 
cause. One begins by learning to observe without reacting. Examine the pain 
that you experience objectively, as if it is someone else's pain. Inspect it 
like a scientist who observes an experiment in his laboratory. When you fail, 
try again. Keep trying, and you will find that gradually you are coming out 
of suffering. Every living being suffers. Life starts with crying; birth is a 
great suffering. And anyone who has been born is bound to encounter the 
sufferings of sickness and old age. But no matter how miserable one's life 
may be, nobody wants to die, because death is a great suffering. Throughout 
life, one encounters things that one does not like, and is separated from 
things that one likes. Unwanted things happen, wanted things do not happen, 
and one feels miserable. Simply understanding this reality at the 
intellectual level will not liberate anyone. It can only give inspiration to 
look within oneself, in order to experience truth and to find the way out of 
misery. This is what Siddhattha Gotama did to become a Buddha: he started 
observing reality within the framework of his body like a research scientist, 
moving from gross, apparent truth to subtler truth, to the subtlest truth. He 
found that whenever one develops craving, whether to keep a pleasant 
sensation or to get rid of an unpleasant one, and that craving is not 
fulfilled, then one starts suffering. And going further, at the subtlest 
level, he found that when seen with a fully collected mind, it is clear that 
attachment to the five aggregates is suffering. Intellectually one may 
understand that the material aggregate, the body, is not "I", not "mine", but 
merely an impersonal, changing phenomenon which is beyond one's control; 
actually, however, one identifies with the body, and develops tremendous 
attachment to it. Similarly one develops attachment to the four mental 
aggregates of consciousness, perception, sensation, reaction, and clings to 
them as "I", "mine" despite their constantly changing nature. For 
conventional purposes one must use the words "I" and "mine", but when one 
develops attachment to the five aggregates, one creates suffering for 
oneself. Wherever there is attachment, there is bound to be misery, and the 
greater the attachment, the greater the misery. There are four types of 
attachment that one keeps developing in life. The first is attachment to 
one's desires, to the habit of craving. Whenever craving arises in the mind, 
it is accompanied by a physical sensation. Although at a deep level a storm 
of agitation has begun, at a superficial level one likes the sensation and 
wishes it to continue. This can be compared with scratching a sore: doing so 
will only aggravate it, and yet one enjoys the sensation of scratching. In 
the same way, as soon as a desire is fulfilled, the sensation that 
accompanied the desire is also gone, and so one generates a fresh desire in 
order that the sensation may continue. One becomes addicted to craving and 
multiplies one's misery. Another attachment is the clinging to "I", "mine", 
without knowing what this 'I' really is. One cannot bear any criticism of 
one's "I" or any harm to it. And the attachment spreads to include whatever 
belongs to "I", whatever is "mine". This attachment would not bring misery if 
whatever is "mine" could continue eternally, and the "I" also could remain to 
enjoy it eternally, but the law of nature is that sooner or later one or the 
other must pass away. Attachment to what is impermanent is bound to bring 
misery. Similarly, one develops attachment to one's views and beliefs, and 
cannot bear any criticism of them, or even accept that others may have 
differing views. One does not understand that everyone wears coloured 
glasses, a different colour for each person. By removing the glasses, one can 
see reality as it is, untinted, but instead one remains attached to the 
colour of one's glasses, to one's own preconceptions and beliefs. Yet another 
attachment is the clinging to one's rites, rituals, and religious practices. 
One fails to understand that these are all merely outward shows, that they do 
not contain the essence of truth. If someone is shown the way to experience 
truth directly within himself but continues to cling to empty external forms, 
this attachment produces a tug-of-war in such a person, resulting in misery. 
All the sufferings of life, if examined closely, will be seen to arise from 
one or another of these four attachments. In his search for truth, this is 
what Siddhattha Gotamna found. Yet he continued investigating within himself 
to discover the deepest cause of suffering, to understand how the entire 
phenomenon works, to trace it to its source. Obviously the sufferings of 
life--disease, old age, death, physical and mental pain--are inevitable 
consequences of being bom. Then what is the reason for birth? Of course the 
immediate cause is the physical union of parents, but in a broader 
perspective, birth occurs because of the endless process of becoming in which 
the entire universe is involved. Even at the time of death the process does 
not stop: the body continues decaying, disintegrating, while the 
consciousness becomes connected with another material structure, and 
continues flowing, becoming. And why this process of becoming? It was clear 
to him that the cause is the attachment that one develops. Out of attachment 
one generates strong reactions, sankhara, which make a deep impression on the 
mind. At the end of life, one of these will arise in the mind and will give a 
push to the flow of consciousness to continue. Now what is the cause of this 
attachment? He found that it arises because of the momentary reactions of 
liking and disliking. Liking develops into great craving; disliking into 
great aversion, the mirror image of craving, and both turn into attachment. 
And why these momentary reactions of liking and disliking? Anyone who 
observes himself will find that they occur because of bodily sensations. 
Whenever a pleasant sensation arises, one likes it and wants to retain and 
multiply it. Whenever an unpleasant sensation arises, one dislikes it and 
wants to get rid of it. Then why these sensations? Clearly they occur because 
of the contact between any of the senses and an object of that particular 
sense: contact of the eye with a vision, of the ear with a sound, of the nose 
with an odour, of the tongue with a taste, of the body with something 
tangible, of the mind with a thought or an imagination. As soon as there is a 
contact, a sensation is bound to arise, pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. And 
what is the reason for contact? Obviously, the entire universe is full of 
sense objects. So long as the six senses--the five physical ones, together 
with the mind--are functioning, they are bound to encounter their respective 
objects. And why do these sense organs exist? It is clear that they are 
inseparable parts of the flow of mind and matter; they arise as soon as life 
begins. And why does the life flow, the flow of mind and matter, occur? 
Because of the flow of consciousness, from moment to moment, from one life to 
the next. And why this flow of consciousness? He found that it arises because 
of the sakhara, the mental reactions. Every reaction gives a push to the flow 
of consciousness; the flow continues because of the impetus given to it by 
reactions. And why do reactions occur? He saw that they arise because of 
ignorance. One does not know what one is doing, does not know how one is 
reacting, and therefore one keeps generating sakhara. So long as there is 
ignorance, suffering will remain. The source of the process of suffering, the 
deepest cause, is ignorance. From ignorance starts the chain of events by 
which one generates mountains of misery for oneself. If ignorance can be 
eradicated, suffering will be eradicated. How can one accomplish this? How 
can one break the chain? The flow of life, of mind and matter, has already 
begun. Committing suicide will not solve the problem; it will only create 
fresh misery. Nor can one destroy the senses without destroying oneself. So 
long as the senses exist, contact is bound to occur with their respective 
objects, and whenever there is a contact, a sensation is bound to arise 
within the body. Now here, at the link of sensation, one can break the chain. 
Previously, every sensation gave rise to a reaction of liking or disliking, 
which developed into great craving or aversion, great misery. But now, 
instead of reacting to sensation, you are learning just to observe 
equanimously, understanding,--"This will also change." In this way sensation 
gives rise only to wisdom, to the understanding of anicca. One stops the 
turning of the wheel of suffering and starts rotating it in the opposite 
direction, towards liberation. Any moment in which one does not generate a 
new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of the mind, and 
along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one remains 
equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in its place. One 
continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the old sakhara 
continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of ignorance one 
reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara, multiplies one's 
misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to sensations, then one 
after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is eradicated. The entire 
path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will find that you 
stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically untied. 
Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all sankhara leading to 
new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been eradicated: the stage of 
total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is not necessary 
that one should first believe in past lives and future lives. In practising 
Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present life, one keeps 
generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and now one must 
break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you practice, certainly a 
day will come when you will be able to say that you have eradicated all the 
old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have freed yourself 
from all suffering.     
===============================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
5067 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Howard

> > Sarah
> > 
> ==================================
>        Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly
> going through Bhikkhu 
> Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put
> forward questions about the 
> material there to you folks from time to time. (In
> fact, I already sent off a 
> couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a
> little while ago.) This 
> is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my
> pariyatti is concerned. 
> I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number
> by concentrating on what 
> seem to be the more interesting ones.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from
you and others to which I have not managed to respond.
 My apologies to all for this.  There are, I'm afraid,
not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up
with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always
manage to keep up with reading the posts).

Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered
posts (by on- or off-list message).

Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very
interesting reference text, and would like to join in
these discussions.

Do you have references to your earlier posts handy?

Jon

 
5068 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  Dan

Thanks to you, Howard and Erik for this and other
posts in a bumper crop today (great birthday reading
for Sarah, with hopefully some dhamma discussion this
afternoon with Bangkok listies and Khun Sujin).

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Dear
mike,
> The tinge of sarcasm aside, your comments are a
> poignant summary of 
> the flavor of some contemporary Abhidhamma writers.
> What a contrast to 
> the Tipitaka!
> 
> Although I'm only very briefly familiar with the
> modern writers, I 
> think their differences with the original teachings
> lie mostly in the 
> pedagogy and not the actual doctrine. The passive,
> discouraging, 
> almost fatalistic tint of the new (enlightenment by
> lottery) is a 
> striking contrast to the active, rousing,
> encouraging, uplifting style 
> of the old. Which is more helpful at the present
> moment? 
> 
> Dan

Would be interested to see one or two examples of what
you mean by the old and the new styles.  Any
references?

Jon


 
5069 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 1:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The corruptions of insight

 
  Dan

Interesting reading.  Are the Ten Corruptions found in
the texts?  I would be interested to follow up. 
Thanks.

Jon

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > At the
early stages of meditation practice, it is
> very easy to confuse 
> the fruits of concentration with the fruits of
> insight and to confuse 
> minor insights with major insights. Although such
> confusion is bound 
> to arise to some degree or another, some of the
> sting of the 
> confusion may be reduced by reviewing the
> "corruptions of insight" 
> from time to time.
> 
> 
> 
> The Ten Corruptions of Insight (Ven. Mahasi's
> summary)
> 
> When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is
> able to keep 
> exclusively to the present body-and-mind process,
> without looking back 
> to past processes or ahead to future ones, then,
> as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a
> brilliant light will 
> appear to him. To one it will appear like the light
> of a lamp, to 
> others like a flash of lightning, or like the
> radiance of the
> moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for
> just one moment, 
> with others it may last longer. 
> 
> There will also arise in him strong mindfulness
> pertaining to insight. 
> As a result, all the successive arisings of bodily
> and mental 
> processes will present themselves to the
> consciousness
> engaged in noticing, as if coming to it of
> themselves; and mindfulness 
> too seems as if alighting on the processes of
> itself. Therefore the 
> meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind
> process in which mindfulness fails to engage." 
> 
> His knowledge consisting in insight, here called
> "noticing," will be 
> likewise keen, strong, and lucid. Consequently, he
> will discern 
> clearly and in separate forms all the bodily and
> mental
> processes noticed, as if cutting to pieces a bamboo
> sprout with a 
> well-sharpened knife. Therefore the meditator then
> believes: "There is 
> no body-and-mind process that cannot be
> noticed." When examining the characteristics of
> impermanence, etc., or 
> other aspects of reality, he understands everything
> quite clearly and 
> at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge
> derived from direct experience. 
> 
> Further, strong faith pertaining to insight arises
> in him. Under its 
> influence, the meditator's mind, when engaged in
> noticing or thinking, 
> is serene and without any disturbance; and when he
> is engaged in recollecting the virtues of the
> Buddha, the Dhamma, and 
> the Sangha, his mind quite easily gives itself over
> to them. There 
> arise in him the wish to proclaim the Buddha's
> Teaching, joyous confidence in the virtues of those
> engaged in 
> meditation, the desire to advise dear friends and
> relatives to 
> practise meditation, grateful remembrance of the
> help received
> from his meditation master, his spiritual mentor,
> etc. These and many 
> other similar mental processes will occur. 
> 
> There arises also rapture in its five grades,
> beginning with minor 
> rapture. When purification of mind is gained, that
> rapture begins to 
> appear by causing "goose-flesh," tremor in the
> limbs, etc.; and now it produces a sublime feeling
> of happiness and 
> exhilaration, filling the whole body with an
> exceedingly sweet and 
> subtle thrill. Under its influence, he feels as if
> the
> whole body had risen up and remained in the air
> without touching the 
> ground, or as if it were seated on an air cushion,
> or as if it were 
> floating up and down. 
> 
> There arises tranquillity of mind with the
> characteristic of 
> quietening the disturbances of consciousness and its
> mental 
> concomitants; and along with it appear mental
> agility, etc. When
> walking, standing, sitting, or reclining there is,
> under the influence 
> of these mental qualities, no disturbance of
> consciousness and its 
> mental concomitants, nor heaviness, rigidity,
> unwieldiness, sickness, or crookedness. Rather, his
> consciousness and 
> its mental concomitants are tranquil through having
> reached the 
> supreme relief in non-action. They are agile
> in always functioning swiftly; they are pliant in
> being able to attend 
> to any object desired; they are wieldy, in being
> able to attend to an 
> object for any length of time desired; they are
> quite
> lucid through their proficiency, that is, through
> the ease with which 
> insight penetrates the object; they are also
> straight through being 
> directed, inclined, and turned only towards
> wholesome
> activities. 
> 
> There also arises a very sublime feeling of
> happiness suffusing all 
> his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly
> joyous and he 
> believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now,
> indeed, I have found happiness never felt before,"
> and he wants to 
> tell others of his extraordinary experience. With
> reference to that 
> rapture and happiness, which are aided by the
> factors
> of tranquillity, etc., it was said: 
> 
>      Superhuman is the bliss of a monk
>      Who, with mind at peace,
>      Having entered a secluded place,
>      Wins insight into Dhamma.
>      When he fully comprehends
>      The five groups' rise and fall,
>      He wins to rapture and to joy -- 
>      The Deathless this, for those who understand. 
> 
>                                                     
>                                                     
>            
> Dhammapada vv. 373-374 
> 
> There arises in him energy that is neither too lax
> nor too tense but 
> is vigorous and acts evenly. For formerly his energy
> was sometimes 
> lax, and so he was overpowered by sloth and
> torpor; hence he could not notice keenly and
> continuously the objects 
> as they became evident, and his understanding, too,
> was not clear. And 
> at other times his energy was too tense, and
> so he was overpowered by agitation, with the same
> result of being 
> unable to notice keenly, etc. But now his energy is
> neither too lax 
> nor too tense, but is vigorous and acts evenly; and
> so,
> overcoming these shortcomings of sloth, torpor, and
> agitation, he is 
> able to notice the objects present keenly and
> continuously, and his 
> understanding is quite clear, too. 
> 
> There also arises in him strong equanimity
> associated with insight, 
> which is neutral towards all formations. Under its
> influence he 
> regards with neutrality even his examination of the
> nature
> of these formations with respect to their being
> impermanent, etc.; and 
> he is able to notice keenly and continuously the
> bodily and mental 
> processes arising at the time. Then his activity of
> noticing is carried on without effort, and proceeds,
> as it were, of 
> itself. Also in adverting to the objects, there
> arises in him strong 
> equanimity, by virtue of which his mind enters, as
> it were,
> quickly into the objects of advertence. 
> 
> There arises further a subtle attachment of a calm
> nature that enjoys 
> the insight graced with the "brilliant light" and
> the 
=== message truncated ===



 
5070 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 2:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Erik, and
all) -
> ==================================
>        It seems to me that in the material of Erik's
> which I quote below, the 
> intention is metaphorical, so that it is not that
> the black deeds themselves 
> are literally transformed into wisdom and
> liberation, but that a powerful mix 
> of right mindfulness, concentration, and effort
> serves to uproot defilements 
> which are the kammic traces of akusala intentions
> and actions (the black 
> deeds), leading to diamond-like wisdom and
> liberation. Incidentally, when 
> Goenka describes the progress of vipassana
> meditation, he describes it as a 
> process of uprooting layers and layers of reactive
> dispositions/inclinations 
> (sankhara), of kammic traces, leading to the
> uprooting of the very deepest 
> ones, followed by the attainment of insight and
> liberation - not so very 
> different, I think, except for the use of
> metaphorical, poetic language vs 
> more straightforward language, so that the
> "consuming" of akusala kamma by a 
> purificatory alchemical fire becomes, in more
> pedestrian speech, the 
> uprooting of kammic traces and the destruction of
> defilements in the oven of 
> mindfulness (and other insight factors). What Erik
> wrote was:
> 
> > ... tossed into a purificatory alchemical fire
> where
> > akusala kamma is 
> > consumed, and black deeds are transformed by panna
> > into the purest 
> > and most indestructible substance known to man.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Howard

Thanks for these useful comments.  Something can sound
appealing when expressed in poetic or metaphorical
terms, but sometimes one needs to consider it in
suttanta or abhidhamma terms in order to properly
evaluate it.

Certainly, panna of the satipatthana kind when
developed will lead to the uprooting of defilements. 
But the panna arising with samatha can never do more
than temproarily subdue kilesa.  There is much
textual/commentarial support for the latter
proposition, i believe. So it is necessary to
understand exactly what is supposed to be going on in
Erik's model.  [Hasty disclaimer here:  I have nothing
against samatha!!  Or any other kind of kusala!]

Jon




 
5071 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 2:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > Dan
wrote:


> I don't have any texts with me, but B. Bodhi's use
> of "urgency" and 
> "vigorous" match closely the idea I have of "viriya"
> as presented in 
> Vibhanga. Some actions and cittas are vigorous, some
> are not. In those 
> that are more vigorous, viriya is more prominent.
> When viriya is 
> subtle, as when thina and middha are strong, it
> seems to merge with 
> jivitindriya, or maybe it's that your description of
> viriya is closer 
> to my understanding of jivitindriya. How do you
> think about 
> jivitindriya and how does it differ from viriya?

Dan
When convenient, it would be interesteing to have the
reference.  Thanks.
Jon


 
5072 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 5:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
>        Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may
> shed some light 
> on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the
> original):
> 
> ***********************************************************
> Pain exists, misery exists. Crying will not free anyone of
> misery. How is one 
> to come out of it? How is one to live with it? A doctor
> treating a sick 
> person must know what the sickness is, and what the
> fundamental cause of the 
> sickness is. If there is a cause, then there must be a way
> out, by removing 
> the cause. Once the cause is removed, the sickness will
> automatically be 
> removed. Tberefore steps must be taken to eradicate the cause.
> First one must 
> accept the fact of suffering. Everywhere suffering exists;
> this is a 
> universal truth. But it becomes a noble truth when one starts
> observing it 
> without reacting, because anyone who does so is bound to
> become a noble, 
> saintly person. When one starts observing the First Noble
> Truth, the truth of 
> suffering, then very quickly the cause of suffering becomes
> clear, and one 
> starts observing it also; this is the Second Noble Truth. If
> the cause is 
> eradicated, then suffering is eradicated; this is the Third
> Noble Truth--the 
> eradication of suffering. To achieve its eradication one must
> take steps; 
> this is the Fourth Noble Truth--the way to end suffering by
> eradicating its 
> cause. One begins by learning to observe without reacting.
> Examine the pain 
> that you experience objectively, as if it is someone else's
> pain. Inspect it 
> like a scientist who observes an experiment in his laboratory.
> When you fail, 
> try again. Keep trying, and you will find that gradually you
> are coming out 
> of suffering. Every living being suffers. Life starts with
> crying; birth is a 
> great suffering. And anyone who has been born is bound to
> encounter the 
> sufferings of sickness and old age. But no matter how
> miserable one's life 
> may be, nobody wants to die, because death is a great
> suffering. Throughout 
> life, one encounters things that one does not like, and is
> separated from 
> things that one likes. Unwanted things happen, wanted things
> do not happen, 
> and one feels miserable. Simply understanding this reality at
> the 
> intellectual level will not liberate anyone. It can only give
> inspiration to 
> look within oneself, in order to experience truth and to find
> the way out of 
> misery. This is what Siddhattha Gotama did to become a Buddha:
> he started 
> observing reality within the framework of his body like a
> research scientist, 
> moving from gross, apparent truth to subtler truth, to the
> subtlest truth. He 
> found that whenever one develops craving, whether to keep a
> pleasant 
> sensation or to get rid of an unpleasant one, and that craving
> is not 
> fulfilled, then one starts suffering. And going further, at
> the subtlest 
> level, he found that when seen with a fully collected mind, it
> is clear that 
> attachment to the five aggregates is suffering. Intellectually
> one may 
> understand that the material aggregate, the body, is not "I",
> not "mine", but 
> merely an impersonal, changing phenomenon which is beyond
> one's control; 
> actually, however, one identifies with the body, and develops
> tremendous 
> attachment to it. Similarly one develops attachment to the
> four mental 
> aggregates of consciousness, perception, sensation, reaction,
> and clings to 
> them as "I", "mine" despite their constantly changing nature.
> For 
> conventional purposes one must use the words "I" and "mine",
> but when one 
> develops attachment to the five aggregates, one creates
> suffering for 
> oneself. Wherever there is attachment, there is bound to be
> misery, and the 
> greater the attachment, the greater the misery. There are four
> types of 
> attachment that one keeps developing in life. The first is
> attachment to 
> one's desires, to the habit of craving. Whenever craving
> arises in the mind, 
> it is accompanied by a physical sensation. Although at a deep
> level a storm 
> of agitation has begun, at a superficial level one likes the
> sensation and 
> wishes it to continue. This can be compared with scratching a
> sore: doing so 
> will only aggravate it, and yet one enjoys the sensation of
> scratching. In 
> the same way, as soon as a desire is fulfilled, the sensation
> that 
> accompanied the desire is also gone, and so one generates a
> fresh desire in 
> order that the sensation may continue. One becomes addicted to
> craving and 
> multiplies one's misery. Another attachment is the clinging to
> "I", "mine", 
> without knowing what this 'I' really is. One cannot bear any
> criticism of 
> one's "I" or any harm to it. And the attachment spreads to
> include whatever 
> belongs to "I", whatever is "mine". This attachment would not
> bring misery if 
> whatever is "mine" could continue eternally, and the "I" also
> could remain to 
> enjoy it eternally, but the law of nature is that sooner or
> later one or the 
> other must pass away. Attachment to what is impermanent is
> bound to bring 
> misery. Similarly, one develops attachment to one's views and
> beliefs, and 
> cannot bear any criticism of them, or even accept that others
> may have 
> differing views. One does not understand that everyone wears
> coloured 
> glasses, a different colour for each person. By removing the
> glasses, one can 
> see reality as it is, untinted, but instead one remains
> attached to the 
> colour of one's glasses, to one's own preconceptions and
> beliefs. Yet another 
> attachment is the clinging to one's rites, rituals, and
> religious practices. 
> One fails to understand that these are all merely outward
> shows, that they do 
> not contain the essence of truth. If someone is shown the way
> to experience 
> truth directly within himself but continues to cling to empty
> external forms, 
> this attachment produces a tug-of-war in such a person,
> resulting in misery. 
> All the sufferings of life, if examined closely, will be seen
> to arise from 
> one or another of these four attachments. In his search for
> truth, this is 
> what Siddhattha Gotamna found. Yet he continued investigating
> within himself 
> to discover the deepest cause of suffering, to understand how
> the entire 
> phenomenon works, to trace it to its source. Obviously the
> sufferings of 
> life--disease, old age, death, physical and mental pain--are
> inevitable 
> consequences of being bom. Then what is the reason for birth?
> Of course the 
> immediate cause is the physical union of parents, but in a
> broader 
> perspective, birth occurs because of the endless process of
> becoming in which 
> the entire universe is involved. Even at the time of death the
> process does 
> not stop: the body continues decaying, disintegrating, while
> the 
> consciousness becomes connected with another material
> structure, and 
> continues flowing, becoming. And why this process of becoming?
> It was clear 
> to him that the cause is the attachment that one develops. Out
> of attachment 
> one generates strong reactions, sankhara, which make a deep
> impression on the 
> mind. At the end of life, one of these will arise in the mind
> and will give a 
> push to the flow of consciousness to continue. Now what is the
> cause of this 
> attachment? He found that it arises because of the momentary
> reactions of 
> liking and disliking. Liking develops into great craving;
> disliking into 
> great aversion, the mirror image of craving, and both turn
> into attachment. 
> And why these momentary reactions of liking and disliking?
> Anyone who 
> observes himself will find that they occur because of bodily
> sensations. 
> Whenever a pleasant sensation arises, one likes it and wants
> to retain and 
> multiply it. Whenever an unpleasant sensation arises, one
> dislikes it and 
> wants to get rid of it. Then why these sensations? Clearly
> they occur because 
> of the contact between any of the senses and an object of that
> particular 
> sense: contact of the eye with a vision, of the ear with a
> sound, of the nose 
> with an odour, of the tongue with a taste, of the body with
> something 
> tangible, of the mind with a thought or an imagination. As
> soon as there is a 
> contact, a sensation is bound to arise, pleasant, unpleasant,
> or neutral. And 
> what is the reason for contact? Obviously, the entire universe
> is full of 
> sense objects. So long as the six senses--the five physical
> ones, together 
> with the mind--are functioning, they are bound to encounter
> their respective 
> objects. And why do these sense organs exist? It is clear that
> they are 
> inseparable parts of the flow of mind and matter; they arise
> as soon as life 
> begins. And why does the life flow, the flow of mind and
> matter, occur? 
> Because of the flow of consciousness, from moment to moment,
> from one life to 
> the next. And why this flow of consciousness? He found that it
> arises because 
> of the sakhara, the mental reactions. Every reaction gives a
> push to the flow 
> of consciousness; the flow continues because of the impetus
> given to it by 
> reactions. And why do reactions occur? He saw that they arise
> because of 
> ignorance. One does not know what one is doing, does not know
> how one is 
> reacting, and therefore one keeps generating sakhara. So long
> as there is 
> ignorance, suffering will remain. The source of the process of
> suffering, the 
> deepest cause, is ignorance. From ignorance starts the chain
> of events by 
> which one generates mountains of misery for oneself. If
> ignorance can be 
> eradicated, suffering will be eradicated. How can one
> accomplish this? How 
> can one break the chain? The flow of life, of mind and matter,
> has already 
> begun. Committing suicide will not solve the problem; it will
> only create 
> fresh misery. Nor can one destroy the senses without
> destroying oneself. So 
> long as the senses exist, contact is bound to occur with their
> respective 
> objects, and whenever there is a contact, a sensation is bound
> to arise 
> within the body. Now here, at the link of sensation, one can
> break the chain. 
> Previously, every sensation gave rise to a reaction of liking
> or disliking, 
> which developed into great craving or aversion, great misery.
> But now, 
> instead of reacting to sensation, you are learning just to
> observe 
> equanimously, understanding,--"This will also change." In this
> way sensation 
> gives rise only to wisdom, to the understanding of anicca. One
> stops the 
> turning of the wheel of suffering and starts rotating it in
> the opposite 
> direction, towards liberation. Any moment in which one does
> not generate a 
> new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of
> the mind, and 
> along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one
> remains 
> equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in
> its place. One 
> continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the
> old sakhara 
> continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of
> ignorance one 
> reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara,
> multiplies one's 
> misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to
> sensations, then one 
> after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is
> eradicated. The entire 
> path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will
> find that you 
> stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically
> untied. 
> Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all
> sankhara leading to 
> new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been
> eradicated: the stage of 
> total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is
> not necessary 
> that one should first believe in past lives and future lives.
> In practising 
> Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present
> life, one keeps 
> generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and
> now one must 
> break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you
> practice, certainly a 
> day will come when you will be able to say that you have
> eradicated all the 
> old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have
> freed yourself 
> from all suffering.     
> ===============================
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                
>             
>                                          



 
5073 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 6:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  --- Howard wrote:
Dear Howard,

Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist
Dhamma. However, this point:

 Hi, Robert -
> 
>        Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may
> shed some light 
> on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the
> original):
> 
"Any moment in which one does
> not generate a 
> new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface of
> the mind, and 
> along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one
> remains 
> equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in
> its place. One 
> continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the
> old sakhara 
> continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of
> ignorance one 
> reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara,
> multiplies one's 
> misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to
> sensations, then one 
> after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is
> eradicated. The entire 
> path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will
> find that you 
> stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically
> untied. 
> Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all
> sankhara leading to 
> new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been
> eradicated: the stage of 
> total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it is
> not necessary 
> that one should first believe in past lives and future lives.
> In practising 
> Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the present
> life, one keeps 
> generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here and
> now one must 
> break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you
> practice, certainly a 
> day will come when you will be able to say that you have
> eradicated all the 
> old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so have
> freed yourself 
> from all suffering.  "   
> ===============================


I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old
"sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka.
Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to mean
kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred
thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life.
There must be  an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many
"sankhara" do we make in just one life?. 
As Dan said, I think this idea is  denied somewhere in the
commentaries.
robert


 
5074 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice (mike)

 
  > Would be interested to see one or two examples of what
> you mean by the old and the new styles.  Any
> references?
Plenty, but it will take me a few days to free up enough time to look 
them up. Please send me an e-mail reminder because I am going to have 
to go off-list for awhile. Things should slow down a bit after May 20 
or so, so I won't have to abruptly cut off interesting discussions so 
much.

 
5075 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 8:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> 
> > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old
> "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka.

Should be: I think the idea that one could eradicate all old
sankhara is not something we would find in the Tipitaka.





 
 
5077 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:46pm
Subject: Re: chanda, lobha, viriya, (ditthi if time!)

 
  > > I don't have any texts with me, but B. Bodhi's use
> > of "urgency" and 
> > "vigorous" match closely the idea I have of "viriya"
> > as presented in 
> > Vibhanga. Some actions and cittas are vigorous, some
> > are not. In those 
> > that are more vigorous, viriya is more prominent.
> > When viriya is 
> > subtle, as when thina and middha are strong, it
> > seems to merge with 
> > jivitindriya, or maybe it's that your description of
> > viriya is closer 
> > to my understanding of jivitindriya. How do you
> > think about 
> > jivitindriya and how does it differ from viriya?
> 
> Dan
> When convenient, it would be interesteing to have the
> reference.  Thanks.
> Jon
I don't have the book with me now, but I am thinking of BB's CMA, 
chapter 2, guide through the list of cetasikas. Also, Vibhanga's 
discussion of viriya and "right striving" make for some lively 
reading.

 
5078 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Certainly, panna of the satipatthana kind when
> developed will lead to the uprooting of defilements. 
> But the panna arising with samatha can never do more
> than temproarily subdue kilesa.

Jonothan,

What you said needs to be qualified. Samatha ALONE sans vipassana 
can't uproot the kilesas. Samatha COMBINED with vipassana (which is 
the orthodox Tibetan approach) can and does. This is through the 
union of samatha & vipassana alternating with rupajhana appana. One 
enters and abides in one of the rupajhanas until very stable and one 
has very strong and "bright" samatha, and then exits temporarily and 
applies vipassana to negate with one's understanding of 
emptiness/anatta whatever one sees arising as "I" or "self" among the 
khandas, then one returns to jhana, alternating. In this way one the 
jhanas and samatha & vipassana act as mutual support conditions for 
one another, and provide the conditions for lokuttara nana through 
repeated application of the antidotes to "inherent existence." 

>  There is much
> textual/commentarial support for the latter
> proposition, i believe. So it is necessary to
> understand exactly what is supposed to be going on in
> Erik's model.  [Hasty disclaimer here:  I have nothing
> against samatha!!  Or any other kind of kusala!]

 
5079 From: Dan 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: The corruptions of insight

 
  > Interesting reading.  Are the Ten Corruptions found in
> the texts?  I would be interested to follow up. 
> Thanks.
Visudhimagga in the chapter on vipassana-nyana

> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: > At the
> early stages of meditation practice, it is
> > very easy to confuse 
> > the fruits of concentration with the fruits of
> > insight and to confuse 
> > minor insights with major insights. Although such
> > confusion is bound 
> > to arise to some degree or another, some of the
> > sting of the 
> > confusion may be reduced by reviewing the
> > "corruptions of insight" 
> > from time to time.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The Ten Corruptions of Insight (Ven. Mahasi's
> > summary)
> > 
> > When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is
> > able to keep 
> > exclusively to the present body-and-mind process,
> > without looking back 
> > to past processes or ahead to future ones, then,
> > as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a
> > brilliant light will 
> > appear to him. To one it will appear like the light
> > of a lamp, to 
> > others like a flash of lightning, or like the
> > radiance of the
> > moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for
> > just one moment, 
> > with others it may last longer. 
> > 
> > There will also arise in him strong mindfulness
> > pertaining to insight. 
> > As a result, all the successive arisings of bodily
> > and mental 
> > processes will present themselves to the
> > consciousness
> > engaged in noticing, as if coming to it of
> > themselves; and mindfulness 
> > too seems as if alighting on the processes of
> > itself. Therefore the 
> > meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind
> > process in which mindfulness fails to engage." 
> > 
> > His knowledge consisting in insight, here called
> > "noticing," will be 
> > likewise keen, strong, and lucid. Consequently, he
> > will discern 
> > clearly and in separate forms all the bodily and
> > mental
> > processes noticed, as if cutting to pieces a bamboo
> > sprout with a 
> > well-sharpened knife. Therefore the meditator then
> > believes: "There is 
> > no body-and-mind process that cannot be
> > noticed." When examining the characteristics of
> > impermanence, etc., or 
> > other aspects of reality, he understands everything
> > quite clearly and 
> > at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge
> > derived from direct experience. 
> > 
> > Further, strong faith pertaining to insight arises
> > in him. Under its 
> > influence, the meditator's mind, when engaged in
> > noticing or thinking, 
> > is serene and without any disturbance; and when he
> > is engaged in recollecting the virtues of the
> > Buddha, the Dhamma, and 
> > the Sangha, his mind quite easily gives itself over
> > to them. There 
> > arise in him the wish to proclaim the Buddha's
> > Teaching, joyous confidence in the virtues of those
> > engaged in 
> > meditation, the desire to advise dear friends and
> > relatives to 
> > practise meditation, grateful remembrance of the
> > help received
> > from his meditation master, his spiritual mentor,
> > etc. These and many 
> > other similar mental processes will occur. 
> > 
> > There arises also rapture in its five grades,
> > beginning with minor 
> > rapture. When purification of mind is gained, that
> > rapture begins to 
> > appear by causing "goose-flesh," tremor in the
> > limbs, etc.; and now it produces a sublime feeling
> > of happiness and 
> > exhilaration, filling the whole body with an
> > exceedingly sweet and 
> > subtle thrill. Under its influence, he feels as if
> > the
> > whole body had risen up and remained in the air
> > without touching the 
> > ground, or as if it were seated on an air cushion,
> > or as if it were 
> > floating up and down. 
> > 
> > There arises tranquillity of mind with the
> > characteristic of 
> > quietening the disturbances of consciousness and its
> > mental 
> > concomitants; and along with it appear mental
> > agility, etc. When
> > walking, standing, sitting, or reclining there is,
> > under the influence 
> > of these mental qualities, no disturbance of
> > consciousness and its 
> > mental concomitants, nor heaviness, rigidity,
> > unwieldiness, sickness, or crookedness. Rather, his
> > consciousness and 
> > its mental concomitants are tranquil through having
> > reached the 
> > supreme relief in non-action. They are agile
> > in always functioning swiftly; they are pliant in
> > being able to attend 
> > to any object desired; they are wieldy, in being
> > able to attend to an 
> > object for any length of time desired; they are
> > quite
> > lucid through their proficiency, that is, through
> > the ease with which 
> > insight penetrates the object; they are also
> > straight through being 
> > directed, inclined, and turned only towards
> > wholesome
> > activities. 
> > 
> > There also arises a very sublime feeling of
> > happiness suffusing all 
> > his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly
> > joyous and he 
> > believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now,
> > indeed, I have found happiness never felt before,"
> > and he wants to 
> > tell others of his extraordinary experience. With
> > reference to that 
> > rapture and happiness, which are aided by the
> > factors
> > of tranquillity, etc., it was said: 
> > 
> >      Superhuman is the bliss of a monk
> >      Who, with mind at peace,
> >      Having entered a secluded place,
> >      Wins insight into Dhamma.
> >      When he fully comprehends
> >      The five groups' rise and fall,
> >      He wins to rapture and to joy -- 
> >      The Deathless this, for those who understand. 
> > 
> >                                                     
> >                                                     
> >            
> > Dhammapada vv. 373-374 
> > 
> > There arises in him energy that is neither too lax
> > nor too tense but 
> > is vigorous and acts evenly. For formerly his energy
> > was sometimes 
> > lax, and so he was overpowered by sloth and
> > torpor; hence he could not notice keenly and
> > continuously the objects 
> > as they became evident, and his understanding, too,
> > was not clear. And 
> > at other times his energy was too tense, and
> > so he was overpowered by agitation, with the same
> > result of being 
> > unable to notice keenly, etc. But now his energy is
> > neither too lax 
> > nor too tense, but is vigorous and acts evenly; and
> > so,
> > overcoming these shortcomings of sloth, torpor, and
> > agitation, he is 
> > able to notice the objects present keenly and
> > continuously, and his 
> > understanding is quite clear, too. 
> > 
> > There also arises in him strong equanimity
> > associated with insight, 
> > which is neutral towards all formations. Under its
> > influence he 
> > regards with neutrality even his examination of the
> > nature
> > of these formations with respect to their being
> > impermanent, etc.; and 
> > he is able to notice keenly and continuously the
> > bodily and mental 
> > processes arising at the time. Then his activity of
> > noticing is carried on without effort, and proceeds,
> > as it were, of 
> > itself. Also in adverting to the objects, there
> > arises in him strong 
> > equanimity, by virtue of which his mind enters, as
> > it were,
> > quickly into the objects of advertence. 
> > 
> > There arises further a subtle attachment of a calm
> > nature that enjoys 
> > the insight graced with the "brilliant light" and
> > the 
> === message truncated ===
 
5080 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 7:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/1/01 1:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> > > Sarah
> > > 
> > ==================================
> >        Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly
> > going through Bhikkhu 
> > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put
> > forward questions about the 
> > material there to you folks from time to time. (In
> > fact, I already sent off a 
> > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a
> > little while ago.) This 
> > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my
> > pariyatti is concerned. 
> > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number
> > by concentrating on what 
> > seem to be the more interesting ones.
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from
> you and others to which I have not managed to respond.
> My apologies to all for this.  There are, I'm afraid,
> not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up
> with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always
> manage to keep up with reading the posts).
> 
> Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered
> posts (by on- or off-list message).
> 
> Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very
> interesting reference text, and would like to join in
> these discussions.
> 
> Do you have references to your earlier posts handy?
> 
> Jon
> 
================================
       Thanks very much. Actually you have nothing at all to apologize for. I 
was in error. The post that I told Sarah was directed to you was actually 
directed to sarah, herself. However, I would welcome a reply to it from any 
of you knowledgeable folks. I was merely referring to the post I just wrote 
yesterday presenting two questions:
(1) What  the difference is between jivitindriya and viriya, and (2) whether 
or not a vi~n~nana/citta is nothing more than the package of "accompanying" 
cetasikas, universal and occasional. I particularly ask this because it 
doesn't seem that there is much of a difference between vi~n~nana 
(discernment/consciousness) and phassa (contact). It is certainly stated, 
explicitly in the Abhidhamma and implicitly in the suttas, that vi~n~nana is 
distinct from all the cetasikas, including phassa; I simply would like to get 
a clear understanding of exactly what that difference amounts to. I 
understand vi~n~nana to consist of the bare apprehension of an object, 
nothing more. How, exactly, is phassa different?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5081 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/1/01 1:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> > > Sarah
> > > 
> > ==================================
> >        Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly
> > going through Bhikkhu 
> > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put
> > forward questions about the 
> > material there to you folks from time to time. (In
> > fact, I already sent off a 
> > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a
> > little while ago.) This 
> > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my
> > pariyatti is concerned. 
> > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number
> > by concentrating on what 
> > seem to be the more interesting ones.
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from
> you and others to which I have not managed to respond.
> My apologies to all for this.  There are, I'm afraid,
> not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up
> with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always
> manage to keep up with reading the posts).
> 
> Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered
> posts (by on- or off-list message).
> 
> Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very
> interesting reference text, and would like to join in
> these discussions.
> 
> Do you have references to your earlier posts handy?
> 
> Jon
> 
=====================================
       Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking about it 
a bit, myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
       Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed along from 
mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of lifetimes. These 
occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of which are the 
fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I suppose that what 
Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial kamma, by the 
production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to feelings, 
will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable the release of 
kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), eventually 
enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during a moment of 
path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* kammic 
traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released for awakening 
to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it does not quite 
seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of insight" such 
as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't contradict it; 
it is just different. 

With metta,
Howard 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         








 
5082 From: Howard 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] unsubscribe

 
  Hi, Des -

       If you are trying to unsubscribe, I believe that what you need to do 
is send any message (even empty) with any title (even empty) to the address: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=224071066182093233025061186085130141132058196034197079250238105121092186228020180222126088029225086019038017241139121246244045240043

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5083 From: Num 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 1:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viri...

 
  Hi Howard,

I am too, trying to understand the subtle different meaning between each 
cetasika. At time when I read from one book, it seems to be clear and 
straight forward to grasp but when I think about some mental phenomena or try 
to put citta and cetasika together, I feel like I miss the big picture.  
Awareness and thinking about Dhamma is different, but careful listening and 
studying, I believe, can condition right understanding.     I will try to 
share with you what I understand so far.  I like your question, it's kind of 
helping me thinking in different angles.


>        With regard to viriya, what do you understand to be the difference 
> between it and jivitindriya (sp?), the latter of which I think of as an 
> "enlivening" or "life-giving" or "energizing" faculty? (I'm trying to get a 
> 


from dhammastudy.com
<<<Jivitindriya-cetasika is the cetasika that maintains its sampayutta-dhamma 
and keeps them alive before they fall away.  Though the nama-dhamma that 
arise can only exist an instant, they need paccaya, namely the concurrent 
jivitindriya-cetasika, to maintain it. Therefore jivitindriya-cetasika is a 
paccaya for the citta and cetasika that arise simultaneously with it by being 
indriya-paccaya or being prominent in maintaining the sampayutta-dhamma that 
arise with it for an instant before it falls away.>>>

My understanding is Jivitindriya-cetasika supports,  nourishes and maintains 
life of citta and cetasika which coarise with at that moment. 
Jivitindriya-cetasika coarises with every citta, and supports both citta and 
all cetasikas which coarise at that moment. It's one of the seven universal 
cetasika.    There is also, rupa-jivitindriya. << (quote from 
dhammastudy.com) -- Rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, must be 
accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa.  Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the other rupa  
accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa. >>    So jivitindriya 
has two kinds, nama-jivitindriya which is cetasika, and rupa-jivitindriya.


While viriya, (energy, effort, viriya-cetasika is the cetasika that 
relentlessly perseveres to support its sahajati-kamma).  Viriya cetasika 
coarises with every lobha-mula-citta. Thina and middha cetasika arise mainly 
in lobha-mula-citta.  So viriya still do it's job in lobha-mula-citta.  I 
think, when we are drowsy, there are some level of lobha there, which need to 
have viriya in attaching to something.   Viriya is one of predominant 
factors, adhipati-paccaya.  It's a predominant factor in accomplishment a 
task, both good and bad. 


So to me jivitindriya-cetasika kind of support and maintain.    Viriya is an 
effort or energy direct into something.


Well, that my version of my understanding.  I am not sure that it makes 
anything clearer.


Num



 
 
 
5087 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 9:16am
Subject: Re: Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin, and My Practice

 
  Hi, all -

I'm reading the following msg of mine from the web site, because,for 
some reason, certain posts aren't getting to me. This particular post 
of mine (below)is all mixed up. My reply at the end should NOT be 
directed toJon, but to robert, and it should be in reply to a 
different post (of robert's not Jon's). I suggest you all simply pay 
no attention to this post (below).

With metta,
Howard

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a message dated 5/1/01 1:29:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> <> writes:
> 
> 
> > Howard
> > 
> > > > Sarah
> > > > 
> > > ==================================
> > >        Thanks for writing. At the moment I'm slowly
> > > going through Bhikkhu 
> > > Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma. I would like to put
> > > forward questions about the 
> > > material there to you folks from time to time. (In
> > > fact, I already sent off a 
> > > couple questions in a post I wrote to (mainly) Jon a
> > > little while ago.) This 
> > > is how I'd like to proceed for a while as far as my
> > > pariyatti is concerned. 
> > > I'll try to keep my questions restricted in number
> > > by concentrating on what 
> > > seem to be the more interesting ones.
> > > 
> > > With metta,
> > > Howard
> > 
> > Yes, I am aware that there are one or two posts from
> > you and others to which I have not managed to respond.
> > My apologies to all for this.  There are, I'm afraid,
> > not infrequent periods when I am unable to keep up
> > with replies (although thatnks to Sarah I always
> > manage to keep up with reading the posts).
> > 
> > Please feel free to remind me anytime of unanswered
> > posts (by on- or off-list message).
> > 
> > Yes, I am also finding Bh Bodhi's CMA a very
> > interesting reference text, and would like to join in
> > these discussions.
> > 
> > Do you have references to your earlier posts handy?
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> =====================================
>        Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking 
about it 
> a bit, myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
>        Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed 
along from 
> mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of 
lifetimes. These 
> occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of which 
are the 
> fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I suppose 
that what 
> Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial 
kamma, by the 
> production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
feelings, 
> will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable the 
release of 
> kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas), 
eventually 
> enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during a 
moment of 
> path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all* 
kammic 
> traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released for 
awakening 
> to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it does 
not quite 
> seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of 
insight" such 
> as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
contradict it; 
> it is just different. 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard 
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, 
a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond 
Sutra)                    
>             


 
5088 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 11:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Dear Howard,
It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
paticasamupada. 

This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha.
We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice
for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea
that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring
them  that this gradually erases kamma from the past.
 The whole idea  is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka.
I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but
managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with
his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had
to do this first?
robert  




Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking
about it a 
bit, 
myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
       Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed
along 
from 
mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of
lifetimes. 
These 
occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of
which are 
the 
fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I
suppose that 
what 
Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial
kamma, 
by the 
production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
feelings, 
will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable
the 
release of 
kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas),
eventually 
enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during
a 
moment of 
path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all*
kammic 
traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released
for 
awakening 
to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it
does not 
quite 
seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of
insight" 
such 
as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
contradict it; 
it is just different. 

With metta,
Howard 


In a message dated 5/1/01 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:



> --- Howard wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> 
> Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist
> Dhamma. However, this point:
> 
> Hi, Robert -
> > 
> >        Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may
> > shed some light 
> > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the
> > original):
> > 
> "Any moment in which one does
> > not generate a 
> > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface
of
> > the mind, and 
> > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one
> > remains 
> > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises
in
> > its place. One 
> > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and
the
> > old sakhara 
> > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out
of
> > ignorance one 
> > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara,
> > multiplies one's 
> > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to
> > sensations, then one 
> > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is
> > eradicated. The entire 
> > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will
> > find that you 
> > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are
automatically
> > untied. 
> > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all
> > sankhara leading to 
> > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been
> > eradicated: the stage of 
> > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it
is
> > not necessary 
> > that one should first believe in past lives and future
lives.
> > In practising 
> > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the
present
> > life, one keeps 
> > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here
and
> > now one must 
> > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you
> > practice, certainly a 
> > day will come when you will be able to say that you have
> > eradicated all the 
> > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so
have
> > freed yourself 
> > from all suffering.  "   
> > ===============================
> 
> 
> I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old
> "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka.
> Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to
mean
> kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred
> thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life.
> There must be  an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many
> "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. 
> As Dan said, I think this idea is  denied somewhere in the
> commentaries.
> robert
> 



================================
Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking
about it a 
bit, 
myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
       Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed
along 
from 
mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of
lifetimes. 
These 
occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of
which are 
the 
fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I
suppose that 
what 
Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial
kamma, 
by the 
production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
feelings, 
will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable
the 
release of 
kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas),
eventually 
enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during
a 
moment of 
path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all*
kammic 
traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released
for 
awakening 
to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it
does not 
quite 
seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of
insight" 
such 
as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
contradict it; 
it is just different. 

With metta,
Howard 



 
5089 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:01pm
Subject: Beginning

 
  Nina wrote to me as I mentioned some people feel discouraged:

"Each level of kusala is valuable, we should not despise kusala
such as
anumodana dana, or helping, even without pa~n~naa. And without
the 
Buddha we
would not know about these kusala, we should be grateful and
happy. WE
should not forget that there are three levels of knowing the
Truths:
sacca~naa.na, kicca-~naa.na and kata ~naa.na. This is in the
commentary 
to
Kindred Sayings V, Book XII, Ch II, setting rolling the wheel of

Dhamma.
 Khun Sujin said about the first one:<< this is the firm
foundation of 
the
understanding of the noble Truths, before there can be any
development 
of
them. Understanding that dukkha is this moment, do not move away
from 
it.
Pariyatti is not just reading, it is also understanding of what
one has
read.>>
We have to develop the perfection of sacca, truthfulness,
sincerity, 
and
that means, not only knowing our akusala but also knowing our
kusala. 
There
are many moments of self, but there are also kusala cittas.
There is 
not
wrong view every moment.The fact that one is disheartened is
also a
conditioned nama, it will not stay. 
Listening thirty years is short, we all know. But we have
confidence, we are beginning on the Path. Sarah said, 
we
are in nursery school, and I like that very much. We should be
grateful 
to
be beginners. There must be a beginning and once it will lead to
the 
goal,
we do not know when. We have to accept that there are ups and
downs 
along
the Path. 
In the Commentary to the Salekkhasutta, Middle Length Sayings,
the
Papa~ncasuudanii, we are reminded of the importance of taking
the three
refuges, that is, having confidence in the Path. It is explained
that 
gifts
given to those who have taken the three refuges are much more
fruitful 
than
those given to people outside Buddhism. And there is a quotation
from 
the M.
III, no. 142, where it is said that a gift given to someone
faring 
along for
the realisation of the fruit of stream attainment yields what is
incalculable and immeasurable. Even someone with the three
refuges is
counted as faring for realising the fruit of sotaapatti.
 We are a beginner on the way, we have to listen, and we should
not think
that that is enough already. Then one can become bahussutaa, one
who has
heard much. The same Commentary states that this is explained
as: 
having
understood the word of the Buddha, even one stanza, and there is
the proper
practice (anuruupapa.tipada.m)."



 
5090 From: Amara   
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 10:56am
Subject: Yellow card

 
  Dear all,

It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, and 
the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the 
following message:


>From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott <Moderators>
>Subject: Yellow card
>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
>
>Amara,
>
>Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
>have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
>for this list.
>
>If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
>time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
>posts without further notice.
>
>Jon & Sarah

Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them the 
trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as it 
is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it can 
be for all concerned.

Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions we 
have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of 
you.  And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you will 
all be of great benefit to many others in the future.  

Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book is 
finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me your 
address, I will be very happy to send it to you.  And those who are 
interested of course, if any.  

May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in 
teaching it,

Amara

 
5091 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Erik

> > The concept of 'black deeds [being]
> > transformed by panna into the purest and most
> > indestructible substance known to man' would seem
> to
> > contradict the teachings on kamma and vipaka. 
> 
> Would SEEM to, that is the key. Seem to. There is no
> "transformation" 
> of akusala sankharas into kusala sankharas, if
> that's what you mean. 
> It is a transmuation of all the base characteristics
> of the 
> personality, via panna, into strenghts. Hatred is
> transmuted into 
> compassion, for example, through the process or
> "reversals," a 
> powerful way of dealing with akusala, given it
> effects transformation 
> not only at the level of restraining bad behavior,
> but by helping one 
> rewire one's categories to see the world in a
> different way due to an 
> _epistemological_ reorganization of reality.

Apologies if I misunderstood your earlier message. 
This is all new and radical stuff to me.

It seems to me you are saying here one of 2 things.

Either you are saying that accumulated kilesa
(anusaya) are 'transmuted' into kusala so that, for
exammple, one's accumulated dosa becomes accumulated
compassion.  Or you are saying that kilesa are
transmuted as and when they arise and manifest so
that, for example, dosa arising is 'caught' and
transmuted into compassion.

In either case my question would be, what is the
cetasika that performs this miraculous transmutation,
and at what stage of the sense- or mind-door process
does it arise?

> For example, there is the practice of "pure vision"
> where one 
> visualizes all beings as already perfected Buddhas.
> This plays into 
> the teaching found in "Mind Training in Eight
> Verses" where "when 
> someone whom I have helped and in whome I have
> placed great hope 
> harms me with great injustice, may I see that one as
> a sacred friend, 
> for they are rarely met."
> 
> This takes a typical human problem--people treating
> us badly--and 
> provides a new lens to view the "problem" through.
> In this case the 
> tormenter is acting in the capacity of "sacred
> friend," providing 
> opportunity to practice forbearance and restrain
> anger. In this way 
> this being of "bad disposition" is actually a
> greater friend than any 
> other, because this friend is providing the
> opportunity to overcome 
> mental afflictions. Through their kindness we can
> terminate the 
> causes to see this happen again through mindfulness
> at the moment 
> we'd normally respond with anger.

If you can 'deal with' dosa in this manner (which i of
course would not agree with), what's wrong with a dose
of good old-fashioned metta or uppekkha?

> I have used this whenever the opportunity arises
> (and I'm mindful 
> enough to recall it at that moment) because it works
> so well. Indeed 
> it's the only thing that's kept me sane given some
> of the vipaka 
> that's been ripening on me the past few years.
> Without this my 
> presence as a Dhamma practitioner in the first place
> would be in 
> question. It has literally saved my life. This also
> really shows in 
> the behavior of those who practice it. It is the
> most powerful 
> antidote to vyapada and patigha I have ever tried,
> and for someone 
> with a very big accumulation of these two, I should
> know whereof I 
> speak.

With all respect, Erik, I would not be prepared to
accept someone's word for it.  It must be supportable
in terms of the pitakas and commentaries, otherwise it
is not dhamma.  Or do you not agree with this
proposition?

> Extrapolate this practice now, to everyone. To see
> everyone as 
> a "sacred friend." How will that change how you
> interact with people 
> if you suspect they are all holy beings here as your
> sacred friend, 
> here to ripen you? That is, very generrally, the
> process of 
> transformating "bad" into "good."

It sounds like any other form of suppression to me!
 
> > Likewise, the concept of a source or kind of
> kusala
> > outside those enumerated in the suttas would also
> be
> > contradictory. 
> 
> Contradictory to what, specifically? The only
> "contradiction" that 
> matters is if it contradicts that which leads to
> abandoning akusala, 
> cultivating kusala, and developing the mind with the
> panna that 
> realizes the lokuttara nana the permanently abandons
> the samyojanas. 
> Can you point to a case where the practices I
> outlined do NOT fall 
> into these three categories, and why, specifically,
> they can't?

I would need ask how whaat you have said above has
anything to do with the panna that eradicates kilesa. 
This is why it is important to clarify what is meant
by the term vipassana.  Simply to assert that it
'perfectly matches' does not take us any further
forward.  That, after all, is what is the subject of
this whole debate (your choice of topic).

To make discussion simpler, may I suggest that
vipassana refers to a moment of citta accompanied by
panna that understands the true nature of the object
of the citta at that moment.  Do you have any comments
on this as a basis for further discussion?
 
> > To particlarise, if tantric bliss is
> > kusala, what kind of kusala citta is it and what
> is
> > its object?
> 
> I have no idea. My best guess at the moment is it
> _could_ be a 
> jhanacitta with the factor of piti energized by
> viriya to an 
> extraordinarily high degree. Someone raised this
> question with me in 
> a private email and it's a very intersting idea, one
> I hadn't 
> considered before.
> 
> I think you raise a very interesting (and important)
> question, one I 
> am now inclined to research: how do the Tibetans
> categorize the 
> cittas arising in this process? I have not seen any
> documentation on 
> this, but given the thoroughness of the Tibetan
> scholars I can't 
> imagine no one else has addressed this in the past
> thousand years. 
> I'll research this point and get back to you,
> because now I really 
> want to know as well.

I look forward to the ersults of your research.

> > Yes, I'm sure it will.  Funny thing about our
> debates
> > though, Erik.  They usually die at an early stage,
> > with me waiting for an answer from you.  The
> latest
> > example of this was my recent request for your
> > explanation of the term 'vipassana' as used in the
> > context of a statement you made.
> 
> The definition for vipassana in Tibetan perfectly
> matches that in the 
> Tipitaka. No point in further defining that on which
> we agree. That 
> includes all the levels of vipassana-nana enumerated
> in the 
> Abhidhamma.
> 
> >  I seem to recall
> > other examples (eg. the meaning of the Eightfold
> Path
> > as found in the Mahayana texts).
> 
> Taught identically in Tibetan Buddhism. Jon, if in
> doubt always 
> remember this: the Tibetans accept the Tipitaka as
> the word of the 
> Buddha AS IS. 

Eightfold path is a whole topic on its own.  I may
reply seeparately on this.

Jon


 
5093 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:10pm
Subject: Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viri...

 
> This is a resend.  I sent the first one about 2 hrs ago.  If you 
get a 
> duplicate, pls pardon me.
==============================
     I'm reading this from the web site. I wonder whether Yahoo 
groups is having trouble sending out the messages!!

With metta,
Howard

 
5094 From: Herman 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  Dear Amara,

This is not my first reply. But the previous one hasn't arrived yet.

In it I asked you to reconsider your decision. I further stated that 
I didn't think Erik or Marlon would benefit from your departure.

Then I said something along the lines of: Regardless of whether you 
are on the list or not, we all remain in a position where we are 
verifying the Dhamma, escape isn't possible :-)

I appreciate your kindnesses, Amara.

Neither this nor that nor not-this nor not-that can be a threat to 
parramattha dhamma. That is real, the rest is pretty well imagined.

With lovingkindness


Herman


--- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, 
and 
> the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the 
> following message:
> 
> 
> >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott 
> >Subject: Yellow card
> >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
> >
> >Amara,
> >
> >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
> >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
> >for this list.
> >
> >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
> >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
> >posts without further notice.
> >
> >Jon & Sarah
> 
> Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them 
the 
> trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as 
it 
> is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it 
can 
> be for all concerned.
> 
> Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions 
we 
> have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of 
> you.  And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you 
will 
> all be of great benefit to many others in the future.  
> 
> Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book 
is 
> finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me 
your 
> address, I will be very happy to send it to you.  And those who are 
> interested of course, if any.  
> 
> May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in 
> teaching it,
> 
> Amara

 
5096 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:17pm
Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Hi, Robert -

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
> paticasamupada. 
> 
> This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha.
> We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice
> for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea
> that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring
> them  that this gradually erases kamma from the past.
>  The whole idea  is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka.
> I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but
> managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with
> his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had
> to do this first?
> robert  
====================================
     Yes, I agree with you. It is by means of following the entire 8-
fold path that eventually the enlightenment factors develop, led by 
mindfulness, with eventually the direct insight into the tilakhana 
leading to dispassion, disenchantment, and finally to the experience 
of nibbana. I agree that Goenka's analysis is questionable, though 
his method is quite effective.

With metta,
Howard

 

 
5097 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 6:27pm
Subject: Testing for My Messages

 
  Hi, all -

       Sorry to bother anyone.I haven't been getting my own messages echoed 
back to me.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


 
5099 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 7:46pm
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Either you are saying that accumulated kilesa
> (anusaya) are 'transmuted' into kusala so that, for
> exammple, one's accumulated dosa becomes accumulated
> compassion. Or you are saying that kilesa are
> transmuted as and when they arise and manifest so
> that, for example, dosa arising is 'caught' and
> transmuted into compassion.
> 
> In either case my question would be, what is the
> cetasika that performs this miraculous transmutation,
> and at what stage of the sense- or mind-door process
> does it arise?

I am not suggesting this, have never suggested this, and I thought 
this had been clarified twice already, both by myself, and Howard, as 
a poetic description. 

Jon, I know you feel the need to verify that something matches the 
nitty gritty of the Abhidhamma, and I am also very keen on this for 
my own knowledge--especially since the claim of the Tibetans is that 
has a basis in the Suttas someplace (and I want to test that out, and 
have so far been pleasantly surprised--"generation stage" of tantra 
as "Recollection of the Deities" for example, emptiness, vipassana, 
etc. etc.). 

I'd also like to offer a suggestion to help communication. That it 
may be very helpful to allow for the open and poetic expression of 
the Dhamma without taking something metaphorical and attempting to 
render it into concise technical terms. Trying to analyze a metaphor 
literally is like trying to analyze a joke. Something is always lost 
in the translation.

To take an extreme example, I have no problem with metaphorical 
versions of emptiness that use "space" as an analogy, simply because 
I know that certain individuals need to have things presented that 
way lest a misunderstanding of emptiness produce terror or some other 
worse miccha-ditthi in them at that point in their developmnent. 

> > For example, there is the practice of "pure vision"
> > where one 
> > visualizes all beings as already perfected Buddhas.
 
> If you can 'deal with' dosa in this manner (which i of
> course would not agree with), what's wrong with a dose
> of good old-fashioned metta or uppekkha?

Jon, when you're placed in a situation that conditions a habitual 
akusala reaction (returning anger with anger, for example), and you 
restrain it at that moment you typically respond in anger, what is 
the result? More akusala or more kusala? If furthermore you've halted 
a habitual reaction, then that reaction will have fewer causes to 
arise again. If we respond with love to anger repeatedly, for 
example, what is the result? A net increase in kusala or a net 
increase in akusala? Which is preferable when one is challenged by a 
situation that engenders anger? To apply this antidote or simply 
unconsciously react? That is the stark choice we have.

As for how "pure vision" (or metta-bhavana for that matter) 
eradicates kilesas. I have never ever heard a Theravadin or Tibetan 
suggest that this type of practice can eradicate kilesas. I thought I 
was unambiguous on the approach of samatha & vipassana & jhanas I've 
been taught and practice as the central practice for insight. There 
should be no room for ambiguity.

> With all respect, Erik, I would not be prepared to
> accept someone's word for it.  It must be supportable
> in terms of the pitakas and commentaries, otherwise it
> is not dhamma.  Or do you not agree with this
> proposition?

I accept no one's word on anything, and test everything out for 
myself. I am ruthless about this. That means tantra, that means the 
teachings of the Tipitaka. I have also seen that they harmonize (in 
often suprising ways) on the things that matter most.

To me, the Dhamma is that which brings one most effectively to 
supramundane wisdom. To me this is the final word on a teaching. If 
it does not do this, it is the Buddha's Dhamma only inasmuch as it 
helps one abandon akusala, take up kusala, and purify the mind (I 
include the Tipitaka here).

> To make discussion simpler, may I suggest that
> vipassana refers to a moment of citta accompanied by
> panna that understands the true nature of the object
> of the citta at that moment.  Do you have any comments
> on this as a basis for further discussion?

That is certainly one valid way of describing it. In the same way one 
can describe the feeling of being "in love" as a systemic change 
brought about by increases in phenylethylamine, dopamine, and a 
number of other neurotransmitters and hormones, accompanied by 
restlessness and excitement and irrational ideation.

Or, if one were a Bard one could put it like this:

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?   
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:   
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,   
And summer's lease hath all too short a date;   
   
"Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;   
And every fair from fair sometime declines,   
By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimm'd.   
   
"But thy eternal summer shall not fade,   
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,   
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:�   
   
"So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,   
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee."

In the end how the Dhamma is rendered is a matter of what is 
beneficial for the listener, as has always been true. In the end it 
is saying the same thing in a different language (and just how 
different has become very clear to me since joining dsg).

 
5100 From: Num 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  <<<<It seems that my messages are giving thewrong image of the group, and 
the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent methe 
following message:>>>>>

 
 
Hi K. Amara,
 
I feel like I need to respond to your mail this time.   “Yellow card”, in 
football it means “a card that the referee holds in the air to indicate that 
a player has been cautioned.”, so I hope when said yellow card, you mean 
yellow card, not a red card, which means “a card, colored red, that the 
referee holds in the air to indicate that a player has been ejected.”   And I 
think it’s improper for a player to give him/herself a card, both yellow or 
red :)
 
………………………………………………………………………………………………
 
>>>>>>>>>
>From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott 
>Subject: 
Yellow card
>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
> >Amara,
> >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
>have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
>for this list.
> >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
>time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
>posts without further notice.
> >Jon & Sarah
 
Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to savethem the 
trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busyenough as it 
is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficialas it can 
be for all concerned.
 
>>>>>>>>>
 
 
May I disagree with you on this point?  I think I read almost all the 
messages in dsg.  And I did not feel like you did anything frankly 
inappropriate or off the topic.  Everybody has his/her own style of 
communication, approach, debate and standard.  Some are pretty tangential, 
some are provocative, some are quite diplomatic, and some are quite 
straightforward.  But as a human being, none of us can be infallible.    I 
think you are pretty straightforward.  Well, I do believe in free speech, as 
long as it's not obscene or indecency.   I do respect your and moderator's 
thought and opinion, which does not mean I agree with all of you guys said.   
I always feel that you mean well and want to help and share with the group. 
To me cetana is the most important.  I can be pretty stupid in doing 
something, and at time bad thing happens because of my stupidity. No matter 
what other people said, I know in my heart what did I do or what am I doing.
 
………………………………………………………………………………………………
 
 
<<<<Thank you for all your kindnesses and veryinteresting discussions we 
have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned fromall of 
you.  And Thanks toJon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you will 
all be of great benefit to many others in the future.>>>>
 
I hope you did not mean to say good-bye.  Well, I think I am pretty 
straightforward and pathologically honest, I think you have been very helpful 
to dsg and esp.to me. I have learned a lot.  You work hard. You always try to 
come back with answer, no matter how difficult or complicated it is.  You 
spend a lot of time and energy in studying dhamma, which I can only admire 
and somewhat envy. 
 
 
………………………………………………………………………………………………
 
 
<<<<May we all benefit from the Buddha'steachings as he intended in 
teaching it,>>>>>
 
I hope to see you back and share with us your wisdom and kindness. No matter 
what you decide, I always respect your input, thought and opinion.   I do not 
mean to encourage or try to psycho in this mail. I just want to speak of the 
truth and nothing else only but the truth.
 
 
Num
 
 




 
5101 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 11:13pm
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  Hi, Herman (and Amara) -

     I concur with your post below. Amara, please don't be 
precipitous, but remain on the list. (BTW, with regard to your not 
having seen your first post yet, I've been seeing NONE of mine and 
very few of anyone else's.I'm replying to your post from the web 
site. Something seems to be wrong with Yahoo groups, at least at my 
end.) Amara, please stick around!

With metta,
Howard

--- Herman wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> This is not my first reply. But the previous one hasn't arrived yet.
> 
> In it I asked you to reconsider your decision. I further stated 
that 
> I didn't think Erik or Marlon would benefit from your departure.
> 
> Then I said something along the lines of: Regardless of whether you 
> are on the list or not, we all remain in a position where we are 
> verifying the Dhamma, escape isn't possible :-)
> 
> I appreciate your kindnesses, Amara.
> 
> Neither this nor that nor not-this nor not-that can be a threat to 
> parramattha dhamma. That is real, the rest is pretty well imagined.
> 
> With lovingkindness
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the 
group, 
> and 
> > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the 
> > following message:
> > 
> > 
> > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott 
> > >Subject: Yellow card
> > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
> > >
> > >Amara,
> > >
> > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
> > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
> > >for this list.
> > >
> > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
> > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
> > >posts without further notice.
> > >
> > >Jon & Sarah
> > 
> > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them 
> the 
> > trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough 
as 
> it 
> > is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as 
it 
> can 
> > be for all concerned.
> > 
> > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting 
discussions 
> we 
> > have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all 
of 
> > you.  And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you 
> will 
> > all be of great benefit to many others in the future.  
> > 
> > Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book 
> is 
> > finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me 
> your 
> > address, I will be very happy to send it to you.  And those who 
are 
> > interested of course, if any.  
> > 
> > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in 
> > teaching it,
> > 
> > Amara

 
5102 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, 
and 
> the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the 
> following message:
> 
> 
> >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott 
> >Subject: Yellow card
> >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
> >
> >Amara,
> >
> >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
> >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
> >for this list.
> >
> >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
> >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
> >posts without further notice.
> >
> >Jon & Sarah
> 
> Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them 
the 
> trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as 
it 
> is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it 
can 
> be for all concerned.

Amara, this is nonsense. You are a precious treasure. I have learned 
more from your posts on the subleties of the Abhidhamma than from 
nearly anyone else. I think if you leave you will be depriving many 
of your insights. So I sincerely request you to remain here for the 
benefit of all of us.

I also do not take our little tiffs personally, and am a lot less 
bothered about it that our list moderators. My suspicious is that you 
have fundamental disagreements with the Tibetan Dharma, and this is a 
cause of difficulty communicating. This is only a GUESS mind you. I 
could well be wrong, and I only mention it because it is a prevalent 
view I've encountered among Theravadins, that the Mahayana/Tibetan 
Dharma is a corruption somehow.

 
5103 From: Alex 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 9:09pm
Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
> paticasamupada. 
  ... snip excellent writing ...
> 
> With metta,
> Howard 
> 

Dear Robert and Howard,

   I must say that I had to smile here.  You signed your post as 
Howard. ...  It's cute!  Howard, I hope you don't mind that someone 
else changes his name.  

Alex

 
5104 From: Alex 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 9:13pm
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  Dear Amara,

   Amara, please don't go away ...

Anumodana to your effort,
Alex

 
5105 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 4:51am
Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Dear Howard,

May I ask how it is effective for you?  As a tool to verify?  As a tool to 
progress in knowledge?  Other comments?

kom 

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > Dear Howard,
> > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
> > paticasamupada. 
> > 
> > This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha.
> > We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice
> > for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea
> > that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring
> > them  that this gradually erases kamma from the past.
> >  The whole idea  is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka.
> > I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but
> > managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with
> > his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had
> > to do this first?
> > robert  
> ====================================
>      Yes, I agree with you. It is by means of following the entire 8-
> fold path that eventually the enlightenment factors develop, led by 
> mindfulness, with eventually the direct insight into the tilakhana 
> leading to dispassion, disenchantment, and finally to the experience 
> of nibbana. I agree that Goenka's analysis is questionable, though 
> his method is quite effective.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

 
5106 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 5:27am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Yellow card

 
  Dear Amara,

	It would be for the benefit of all DSG users(including yourself)if
you remain in the group.

Regards.
Gayan

 
5107 From: Num 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 11:00pm
Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages

 
  Hi Howard and all,

Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me.   The mail that I sent
out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me.  And I get sporadic
fwd mails from the yahoogroup.   I don't know where is the proble, my
aol or yahoo, or both.  It took for 4 hours for my message to show up
at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me.   Strange.


Num

 
5108 From: Antony 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 8:54am
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  My Dear Amara

My life is so short and I have so much to learn. Your posts have been 
an encyclopedia of learning for me. Your answers to my questions have 
always been thoughtful, detailed and clear. agreement or disagreement 
is not an issue for me, but learning I am interested in. I am not a 
fool to think that I don't need more learning and practice.

I am sure it is the Buddha who has said that a fool is one who, when 
admonished or instructed, does not reflect on this information and 
learn from it. I hope I am not that fool and I have read all your 
detailed informative posts as if they were meant for my instruction. 
I would be happy to be able to continue to reflect on issues atht are 
discussed here with your assistance.

Our friends the moderators are only doing there job as good 
moderators should. we cannot hope that they should treat us any 
differently than someone else. When there has been untoward 
interaction using the List all parties need reminded of the 
instruction of moderation. I would expect that you are not the only 
one to have received the infamous 'yellow card' on this occasion.

As you can see there are many on this list who would hope that you do 
not quit the discussions. But that is a decision you must make. I 
truly hope that you make the right decision and one that you are 
satisfied with. (as much as anyone can be.)

I felt I had to add my 'bit' to the call for your backflip. And I 
would think that there will be a cyber-cheer go out when you announce 
it.

I would also like to add for the benefit of all reading this that I 
support the Moderators in the job that they have set themselves to 
do. It is not so easy as one might think, and what is currently 
occuring is an example of that.

antony
sydney australia

 
5109 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Dear Alex,
Thanks but have a look again. This is my full text. Howards
comes after:
Dear Howard,
It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
paticasamupada. 

This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha.
We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice
for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea
that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring
them  that this gradually erases kamma from the past.
 The whole idea  is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka.
I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but
managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with
his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had
to do this first?
robert  





--- Alex wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > Dear Howard,
> > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel
> of
> > paticasamupada. 
>   ... snip excellent writing ...
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard 
> > 
> 
> Dear Robert and Howard,
> 
>    I must say that I had to smile here.  You signed your post
> as 
> Howard. ...  It's cute!  Howard, I hope you don't mind that
> someone 
> else changes his name.  
> 
> Alex
> 



 
5110 From: Howard 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 9:59am
Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages

 
  Hi, Num -

--- Num wrote:
> Hi Howard and all,
> 
> Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me.   The mail that I sent
> out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me.  And I get sporadic
> fwd mails from the yahoogroup.   I don't know where is the proble, 
my
> aol or yahoo, or both.  It took for 4 hours for my message to show 
up
> at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me.   Strange.
> 
> 
> Num
=================================
    Thank you for this confirmation. I feel better - maybe 
because "misery loves company"? ;-)) I doubt that the problem is with 
aol - I do get non-yahoo posts,even from other lists.

With metta,
Howard

 
5111 From: Moderators 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:21am
Subject: Delays in posts

 
  Dear All

Just to confirm that any delays you may be experiencing in messages 
getting to the list or back to you is to do with the system (no, your 
moderators have not gone trigger-happy!).

As to whether the problem lies with Yahoo or elsewhere, I am inclined 
to think the former, but I have not been able to verify this.  

On the subject of glitches, our eScribe archive site stopped 
receiving messages for most of April, so there is no eScribe archive 
for that period.

I expect the present problems will get sorted out soon, so I suggest 
we all just continue to post in the normal manner in the meantime.

Jon & Sarah

 
 
5112 From: robert 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:29am
Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages

 
  same problems with me. It seems to be the same on d-l list too. I 
hope this is just a temporary problem.
robert--- 


Num wrote:
> Hi Howard and all,
> 
> Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me.   The mail that I sent
> out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me.  And I get sporadic
> fwd mails from the yahoogroup.   I don't know where is the proble, 
my
> aol or yahoo, or both.  It took for 4 hours for my message to show 
up
> at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me.   Strange.
> 
> 
> Num

 
5113 From: Howard 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 0:45pm
Subject: Re: Testing for My Messages

 
  Hi, Robert -

--- Robert wrote:
> same problems with me. It seems to be the same on d-l list too. I 
> hope this is just a temporary problem.
> robert--- 
> 
> 
> Num wrote:
> > Hi Howard and all,
> > 
> > Me too, I haven't got my messages echo to me.   The mail that I 
sent
> > out to dsg took about 15 hours to return to me.  And I get 
sporadic
> > fwd mails from the yahoogroup.   I don't know where is the 
proble, 
> my
> > aol or yahoo, or both.  It took for 4 hours for my message to 
show 
> up
> > at yahoo, and another 11 hrs to echo back to me.   Strange.
> > 
> > 
> > Num
====================================
     Robert, since your e-mail address is not an aol one, that would 
suggest that the problem lies with Yahoo. I also hope they straighten 
it out soon. I'm on several of the Yahoo lists,and I'm having the 
same problem with all of them,though not with the one or two non-
Yahoo lists I'm on.

With metta,
Howard

 
5114 From: robert 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 1:08pm
Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Dear Robert and Howard,

   I must say that I had to smile here.  You signed your post as 
Howard. ...  It's cute!  Howard, I hope you don't mind that someone 
else changes his name.  

Alex
____________________________
Dear Alex: here is the complete message, this time with the sections 
by Howard and by me properly distinguished.




Robert Kirkpatrick  
wrote:
>ROBERT: Dear Howard,
> It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
> paticasamupada. 
> 
> This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha.
> We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice
> for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea
> that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring
> them  that this gradually erases kamma from the past.
>  The whole idea  is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka.
> I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but
> managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with
> his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had
> to do this first?
> robert  
>____________________________________________________________________ 
> 
> 
> 
>HOWARD: Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking
> about it a 
> bit, 
> myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
>        Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed
> along 
> from 
> mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of
> lifetimes. 
> These 
> occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of
> which are 
> the 
> fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I
> suppose that 
> what 
> Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial
> kamma, 
> by the 
> production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
> feelings, 
> will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable
> the 
> release of 
> kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas),
> eventually 
> enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during
> a 
> moment of 
> path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all*
> kammic 
> traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released
> for 
> awakening 
> to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it
> does not 
> quite 
> seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of
> insight" 
> such 
> as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
> contradict it; 
> it is just different. 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 5/1/01 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Robert writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > --- Howard wrote:
> > Dear Howard,
> > 
> > Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist
> > Dhamma. However, this point:
> > 
> > Hi, Robert -
> > > 
> > >        Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may
> > > shed some light 
> > > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the
> > > original):
> > > 
> > "Any moment in which one does
> > > not generate a 
> > > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface
> of
> > > the mind, and 
> > > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one
> > > remains 
> > > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises
> in
> > > its place. One 
> > > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and
> the
> > > old sakhara 
> > > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out
> of
> > > ignorance one 
> > > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara,
> > > multiplies one's 
> > > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to
> > > sensations, then one 
> > > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is
> > > eradicated. The entire 
> > > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will
> > > find that you 
> > > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are
> automatically
> > > untied. 
> > > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all
> > > sankhara leading to 
> > > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been
> > > eradicated: the stage of 
> > > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it
> is
> > > not necessary 
> > > that one should first believe in past lives and future
> lives.
> > > In practising 
> > > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the
> present
> > > life, one keeps 
> > > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here
> and
> > > now one must 
> > > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you
> > > practice, certainly a 
> > > day will come when you will be able to say that you have
> > > eradicated all the 
> > > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so
> have
> > > freed yourself 
> > > from all suffering.  "   
> > > ===============================
> > 
> > 
> > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old
> > "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka.
> > Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to
> mean
> > kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred
> > thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life.
> > There must be  an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many
> > "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. 
> > As Dan said, I think this idea is  denied somewhere in the
> > commentaries.
> > robert
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ================================
> Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking
> about it a 
> bit, 
> myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
>        Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed
> along 
> from 
> mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of
> lifetimes. 
> These 
> occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of
> which are 
> the 
> fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I
> suppose that 
> what 
> Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial
> kamma, 
> by the 
> production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
> feelings, 
> will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable
> the 
> release of 
> kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas),
> eventually 
> enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during
> a 
> moment of 
> path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all*
> kammic 
> traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released
> for 
> awakening 
> to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it
> does not 
> quite 
> seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of
> insight" 
> such 
> as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
> contradict it; 
> it is just different. 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard 
> 
> 

 
5115 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 1:26pm
Subject: Jon and Sarah, Amara and fellow Buddhists

 
  Dear Fellow Buddhists

I was informed today by a fellow Buddhist, the events that have 
occurred. I was also shown the copy of the posts that caused fellow 
Buddhist Amara to leave. 

I respect the judgment of the Jon and Sarah for it is theirs alone to 
make.

I have rejoined the group for a short period. I would like to state 
that no wrong was ever done to me by Buddhist Amara or any other 
fellow Buddhist. Comments directed at me are merely personal opinions 
and it carries no weight whatsoever. Ego is the only thing that gets 
hurt in situations like this, never the person. Buddhism is supposed 
to teach us to remove every bit of this most dreaded shortcoming of 
our human form.-EGO.  If we all learn to remove EGO there will be 
no "cause and effect", does this sound familiar ? This is one of the 
fundamentals of Buddhism.

 Lets get this straight first before we study the intricacy and 
complexities of Dhamma.. Dhamma is already perfect-we are not, so 
lets get our house in order first before we proceed to analyze the 
already perfect Dhamma. We cannot see past our nose with Ego present 
in our hearts (Buddhist meaning for mind),. If we claim vision, it is 
only Ego in a different form we are seeing, not the truth. Worse, if 
we are preaching or interpreting Dhamma with EGO still inside us, 
detrimental effects will occur to the receivers in the long run. 

Old Buddhist doctrine forbade anyone other than Monks to pass on the 
Dhamma. There was a reason for the Lord Buddha's ruling. It was 
because of the minimal presence of EGO that allowed the monk to pass 
the Dhamma on, without, adding a little of his own to the Dhamma. 
Human EGO is responsible in Diluting and corrupting the original 
Dhamma. Now-adays self-styled unordained monks are busy, playing 
Buddha for their own gratification. This must cease. 

I am saddened when I read the pleas, members of this group have sent 
to fellow Buddhist Amara. I personally would like Fellow Buddhist 
Amara to return to this group, but for a different reason. Members 
must realize that attachments to fellow Buddhists are counter 
productive in your advancement in Buddhism. Buddhism teaches you to 
remove these personal bonds and chains that imprison you in the house 
of Samsara. 

We must apply, what we have learnt, otherwise we are wasting this 
life as a human, and wasting our time studding Buddhism.

With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCAll

.

 
5116 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 2:40pm
Subject: Only monks may teach Dhamma? Marlon

 
  Dear marlon,
thanks for kindly coming back and encouraging Amara to stay.
Just one point. You write:
--- Marlon McCall wrote:
> > 
> Old Buddhist doctrine forbade anyone other than Monks to pass
> on the 
> Dhamma. There was a reason for the Lord Buddha's ruling. It
> was 
> because of the minimal presence of EGO that allowed the monk
> to pass 
> the Dhamma on, without, adding a little of his own to the
> Dhamma. 

There is one sutta (if anyone can find the reference) where the
Buddha said he "will not pass away until monks, nuns , wise
laymen and laywoman are able to proclaim this Dhamma correctly
and refute any erroneous notions about Dhamma that arise" or
words to that effect.
One example from the suttas of a layman preaching to monks  The
Samyutta Nikaya the layman Citta  is speaking to some senior
monks: 

"Venerable Sirs, it is just as if a black ox and a white were
joined together with a single collar or yoke. If someone were to
say, 'The black ox is the fetter of the white ox, the white ox
is the fetter of the black' -- speaking in this way, would he be
speaking right?" And the elder monks reply: "No, householder,
the black ox is not the fetter of the white ox, nor is the white
ox the fetter of the black. The single collar or yoke by which
they are joined -- that is the fetter there." And Citta replies:
"In the same way, friend, the eye is not the fetter of forms,
nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire and passion
arises in dependence on the two of them -- that is the fetter
there. [The same is said for the ear, nose, tongue, body and
mind] The mind is not the fetter of ideas. Nor are ideas the
fetter of the mind. Whatever desire or passion arises in
dependence on the two of them -- that is the fetter there."

Citta the householder was praised by the Buddha both as a
role-model for the lay disciples and as an expounder of Dhamma .

Your words about the danger of ego, especially in any Dhamma
undertaking, are well put. 
Whether we can say that a monk has less ego because he wears the
robe is open to question. monks carry the banner of the Dhamma
and they have grave obligations because of this. But we
laypeople should not abdicate our reponsibilty to learn and pass
on Dhamma, thinking that all this is the duty of the Bhikkhus.
robert





 
5117 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 2:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Erik

Some general comments on the use of poetic or
metaphorical language to express the dhamma.

There is indeed much of poetic language in the
Tipitaka, especially, but not limited to, passages
such as the Dhammapada and the Thera- and Therigatha. 
Elsewhere, metaphors and similes abound.  So there can
be no question of not allowing it.  But in the dhamma,
precision is everything, and poeteic/mataphoric
language as you know usually leaves room for different
interpretations according to the listener's
understanding/wrong view on the matter.  

All dhamma is capable of explanation in terms of
absolute or moment-to-moment realities.  This is the
purpose and function of the commentaries and
abhidhamma pitaka, without which even the suttas would
be opaque to us today because of our limited
understanding compared to those listening to the
Buddha during his lifetime.  Far from losing anything
in the translation, such analysis helps us extract the
true meaning ffor the texts and keeps us from taking
things at their most superficial and mundane level.

Erik, I would not wish to discourage you from
expressing yourself as best you feel suits, but I hope
you won't mind if I sometimes ask for verification
according to the nitty-gritty of the abhidahmma where
I think this might be useful.

--- Erik wrote: >  Jonothan Abbott
>  wrote:
> 
> > Either you are saying that accumulated kilesa
> > (anusaya) are 'transmuted' into kusala so that,
> for
> > exammple, one's accumulated dosa becomes
> accumulated
> > compassion. Or you are saying that kilesa are
> > transmuted as and when they arise and manifest so
> > that, for example, dosa arising is 'caught' and
> > transmuted into compassion.
> > 
> > In either case my question would be, what is the
> > cetasika that performs this miraculous
> transmutation,
> > and at what stage of the sense- or mind-door
> process
> > does it arise?
> 
> I am not suggesting this, have never suggested this,
> and I thought 
> this had been clarified twice already, both by
> myself, and Howard, as 
> a poetic description. 

My apologies once again.  I did not mean to put words
into your mouth.  Consider this as simply a request
for an explanation at a more prosaic level.
...
> > With all respect, Erik, I would not be prepared to
> > accept someone's word for it.  It must be
> supportable
> > in terms of the pitakas and commentaries,
> otherwise it
> > is not dhamma.  Or do you not agree with this
> > proposition?
> 
> I accept no one's word on anything, and test
> everything out for 
> myself. I am ruthless about this. That means tantra,
> that means the 
> teachings of the Tipitaka. I have also seen that
> they harmonize (in 
> often suprising ways) on the things that matter
> most.
> 
> To me, the Dhamma is that which brings one most
> effectively to 
> supramundane wisdom. To me this is the final word on
> a teaching. If 
> it does not do this, it is the Buddha's Dhamma only
> inasmuch as it 
> helps one abandon akusala, take up kusala, and
> purify the mind (I 
> include the Tipitaka here).

Yes, but for those of us whose understanding is far,
far from the supramundane level the Tipitaka, rather
than our own 'experience' (conditioned as it must be
by wrong view etc) remains the only true touchstone.

Jon


 
5118 From: wynn   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 4:26pm
Subject: Tanha

 
  Is all tanha unskilful?

Someone wrote:

"Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature, but if one looks at
bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one cannot but involve
oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is understood in an
essentially pejorative sense.  For example, if bhava-ta.nhaa is
essentially akusala, then making merit for a better rebirth would be
essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist spiritual life begin!"

In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons ta.nhaa by means of
ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati; A.ii.146]

Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have:

'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] and unskilful
[akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, skilful ta.nhaa is for
abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of samsaric activities].' [87]

Please seet this also.
http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html




 
5119 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 4:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha

 
  Dear Wyn,
Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala and
thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for pretty well
everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the operative word)
preferable to have tanha towards things related to Dhamma
because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For instance, I
am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or Thailand to
listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with tanha ( some is
conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and this
conditions some detachment and understanding(no tanha at those
moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for wisdom.
This is a great topic BTW. 
robert
--- wynn  wrote:
> Is all tanha unskilful?
> 
> Someone wrote:
> 
> "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature, but if one
> looks at
> bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one cannot but
> involve
> oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is understood in an
> essentially pejorative sense.  For example, if bhava-ta.nhaa
> is
> essentially akusala, then making merit for a better rebirth
> would be
> essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist spiritual
> life begin!"
> 
> In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons ta.nhaa by
> means of
> ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati; A.ii.146]
> 
> Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have:
> 
> 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala] and
> unskilful
> [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara, skilful
> ta.nhaa is for
> abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of samsaric
> activities].' [87]
> 
> Please seet this also.
> http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html
> 



 
5120 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Only monks may teach Dhamma? Marlon to Robert

 
  Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert

It is most kind of you to welcome me back to the group, I assure you 
I will only be here for a short period, so please bare with me for 
just a little while. I am sure the present predicament is because of 
my manner of approach to things. I have a very blunt and seemingly 
uncompassionate approach to people., but I assure you this is the 
furthest from the truth. I have been taught Dhamma Vinaya from Indian 
Buddhist Masters. I know of no other way to express Buddhist Doctrine.
I was taught that Dhamma is Serious doctrin and not for the faint 
harted. I am sorry if this seems harsh this is also how I preceive 
Dhamma. 

Pertaining to the teaching of Dhamma the doctrine requires very 
strict requirement that must be adhered to  before even a single word 
of Dhamma may be uttered from any ones lips for the process of 
teaching. This is self explanatory :- and pertains to ordained monks, 
no dispensation was given to laypersons by Lord Buddha.


Part Three: The 16 Dealing with Teaching Dhamma  
57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand 
and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand and 
who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand and 
who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand and 
who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather 
[leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not 
ill: a training to be observed. 
64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a 
training to be observed. 
65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his knees 
and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not 
ill: a training to be observed. 
67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with a 
robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person 
sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person 
sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not 
ill: a training to be observed. 
71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking ahead 
who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person 
walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 

The Patimokkha The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu



"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma 
should be taught to others only when five qualities are established 
within the person teaching. Which five? 
"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-
by-step.' 
"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' 
"[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out 
of compassion.' 
"[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not 
for the purpose of material reward.' 
"[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
without disparaging myself or others.' 
"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma 
should be taught to others only when these five qualities are 
established within the person teaching." 

Anguttara Nikaya V.159 ,Udayi Sutta ,About Udayin


With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall

 
5121 From: robert 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Only monks may teach Dhamma? Marlon to Robert

 
  Dear Marlon,
All of this is very useful and helpful to reflect on. 
Thank you.
robert
 Marlon McCall wrote:
> Dear Fellow Buddhist Robert
> 
> It is most kind of you to welcome me back to the group, I assure 
you 
> I will only be here for a short period, so please bare with me for 
> just a little while. I am sure the present predicament is because 
of 
> my manner of approach to things. I have a very blunt and seemingly 
> uncompassionate approach to people., but I assure you this is the 
> furthest from the truth. I have been taught Dhamma Vinaya from 
Indian 
> Buddhist Masters. I know of no other way to express Buddhist 
Doctrine.
> I was taught that Dhamma is Serious doctrin and not for the faint 
> harted. I am sorry if this seems harsh this is also how I preceive 
> Dhamma. 
> 
> Pertaining to the teaching of Dhamma the doctrine requires very 
> strict requirement that must be adhered to  before even a single 
word 
> of Dhamma may be uttered from any ones lips for the process of 
> teaching. This is self explanatory :- and pertains to ordained 
monks, 
> no dispensation was given to laypersons by Lord Buddha.
> 
> 
> Part Three: The 16 Dealing with Teaching Dhamma  
> 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his 
hand 
> and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand 
and 
> who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand 
and 
> who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand 
and 
> who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 61. [62] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather 
> [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle and who is not 
> ill: a training to be observed. 
> 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: 
a 
> training to be observed. 
> 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits holding up his 
knees 
> and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not 
> ill: a training to be observed. 
> 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with 
a 
> robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person 
> sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person 
> sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is 
not 
> ill: a training to be observed. 
> 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking 
ahead 
> who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person 
> walking on the path and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 
> 
> The Patimokkha The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline
> Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
> 
> 
> 
> "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma 
> should be taught to others only when five qualities are established 
> within the person teaching. Which five? 
> "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
step-
> by-step.' 
> "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
> explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' 
> "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
out 
> of compassion.' 
> "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
not 
> for the purpose of material reward.' 
> "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak 
> without disparaging myself or others.' 
> "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma 
> should be taught to others only when these five qualities are 
> established within the person teaching." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya V.159 ,Udayi Sutta ,About Udayin
> 
> 
> With Utmost Respect Always
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall

 
5122 From: Alex 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 7:20pm
Subject: Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Dear Robert,

   Yes, you're right.  When reading that message, the top part 
somehow rolled off the screen.  It gave me a wrong vision.
   
   Thank you for showing me the correct post.

Respectfully,
Alex

--- Robert wrote:
> 
>  Dear Robert and Howard,
> 
>    I must say that I had to smile here.  You signed your post as 
> Howard. ...  It's cute!  Howard, I hope you don't mind that someone 
> else changes his name.  
> 
> Alex
> ____________________________
> Dear Alex: here is the complete message, this time with the 
sections 
> by Howard and by me properly distinguished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Kirkpatrick 
 
> wrote:
> >ROBERT: Dear Howard,
> > It is insight into dhammas that eventually unhooks the wheel of
> > paticasamupada. 
> > 
> > This idea of releasing kamma was an idea even before the Buddha.
> > We had jain monks who used to do this and they would practice
> > for so long, standing or sitting very still. They had the idea
> > that as the painful feelings grew that by patiently enduring
> > them  that this gradually erases kamma from the past.
> >  The whole idea  is something I have not seen in the Tipitaka.
> > I wonder how someone like Angulimala - who killed 999 people but
> > managed to become enlightened even where he was standing with
> > his armour on after a brief discourse by the Buddha- if he had
> > to do this first?
> > robert  
> 
>____________________________________________________________________ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >HOWARD: Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been 
thinking
> > about it a 
> > bit, 
> > myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
> >        Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed
> > along 
> > from 
> > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of
> > lifetimes. 
> > These 
> > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of
> > which are 
> > the 
> > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I
> > suppose that 
> > what 
> > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial
> > kamma, 
> > by the 
> > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
> > feelings, 
> > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable
> > the 
> > release of 
> > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas),
> > eventually 
> > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during
> > a 
> > moment of 
> > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all*
> > kammic 
> > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released
> > for 
> > awakening 
> > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it
> > does not 
> > quite 
> > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of
> > insight" 
> > such 
> > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
> > contradict it; 
> > it is just different. 
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard 
> > 
> > 
> > In a message dated 5/1/01 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > Robert writes:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > --- Howard wrote:
> > > Dear Howard,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for looking this up. Most of it is standard buddhist
> > > Dhamma. However, this point:
> > > 
> > > Hi, Robert -
> > > > 
> > > >        Here's some material from a Goenka web site that may
> > > > shed some light 
> > > > on his teaching (please forgive the typos - they are in the
> > > > original):
> > > > 
> > > "Any moment in which one does
> > > > not generate a 
> > > > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the surface
> > of
> > > > the mind, and 
> > > > along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one
> > > > remains 
> > > > equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises
> > in
> > > > its place. One 
> > > > continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and
> > the
> > > > old sakhara 
> > > > continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out
> > of
> > > > ignorance one 
> > > > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara,
> > > > multiplies one's 
> > > > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to
> > > > sensations, then one 
> > > > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is
> > > > eradicated. The entire 
> > > > path is a way to come out of misery. By practising, you will
> > > > find that you 
> > > > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are
> > automatically
> > > > untied. 
> > > > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all
> > > > sankhara leading to 
> > > > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been
> > > > eradicated: the stage of 
> > > > total liberation, full enlightenment. To start the work, it
> > is
> > > > not necessary 
> > > > that one should first believe in past lives and future
> > lives.
> > > > In practising 
> > > > Vipassana, the present is most important. Here in the
> > present
> > > > life, one keeps 
> > > > generating sankhara, keeps making oneself miserable. Here
> > and
> > > > now one must 
> > > > break this habit and start coming out of misery. If you
> > > > practice, certainly a 
> > > > day will come when you will be able to say that you have
> > > > eradicated all the 
> > > > old sankhara have stopped generating any new ones, and so
> > have
> > > > freed yourself 
> > > > from all suffering.  "   
> > > > ===============================
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I do not think the idea that one could eradicate all old
> > > "sankhara" is not something we would find in the Tipitaka.
> > > Which "sankhara", from which life? By sankhara he seems to
> > mean
> > > kamma or cetana . But the result of kamma done one hundred
> > > thousand aeons ago or longer can still appear in this life.
> > > There must be  an infinite number of 'sankhara'. How many
> > > "sankhara" do we make in just one life?. 
> > > As Dan said, I think this idea is  denied somewhere in the
> > > commentaries.
> > > robert
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ================================
> > Yes, what you quoted is the key material. I've been thinking
> > about it a 
> > bit, 
> > myself. Here area few thoughts I have:
> >        Clearly, there is a huge pile of kammic formations passed
> > along 
> > from 
> > mind-state to mind-state, accumulated over an infinity of
> > lifetimes. 
> > These 
> > occur at differing levels/layers of mind, the most basic of
> > which are 
> > the 
> > fundamental defilements, embedded at the deepest level. I
> > suppose that 
> > what 
> > Goenka is saying is that the release of relatively superficial
> > kamma, 
> > by the 
> > production of resultant cittas, and, as usual, then leading to 
> > feelings, 
> > will, if those feelings are "greeted" with equanimity, enable
> > the 
> > release of 
> > kamma at still deeper layers (and further resultant cittas),
> > eventually 
> > enabling the release of some very deep-seated defilements during
> > a 
> > moment of 
> > path-consciousness. I don't think Goenka is implying that *all*
> > kammic 
> > traces, layer by layer, moving downwards, have to be released
> > for 
> > awakening 
> > to occur. What Goenka says seems to be plausible. However, it
> > does not 
> > quite 
> > seem to accord with the usual description of the "progress of
> > insight" 
> > such 
> > as is described, for example by Sayadaw U Pandita. It doesn't 
> > contradict it; 
> > it is just different. 
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard 
> > 

 
5123 From: Erik 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 7:34pm
Subject: Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik
> 
> Some general comments on the use of poetic or
> metaphorical language to express the dhamma.
> 
> There is indeed much of poetic language in the
> Tipitaka, especially, but not limited to, passages
> such as the Dhammapada and the Thera- and Therigatha. 
> Elsewhere, metaphors and similes abound.  So there can
> be no question of not allowing it.  But in the dhamma,
> precision is everything, and poeteic/mataphoric
> language as you know usually leaves room for different
> interpretations according to the listener's
> understanding/wrong view on the matter.  
> 
> All dhamma is capable of explanation in terms of
> absolute or moment-to-moment realities.  This is the
> purpose and function of the commentaries and
> abhidhamma pitaka, without which even the suttas would
> be opaque to us today because of our limited
> understanding compared to those listening to the
> Buddha during his lifetime.  Far from losing anything
> in the translation, such analysis helps us extract the
> true meaning ffor the texts and keeps us from taking
> things at their most superficial and mundane level.

I agree completely, which is why I'm doing this investigation at all. 
I just don't want to completely chuck metaphorical language though, 
and would like a little leeway there. So you know my intention is to  
validate my own understanding from the perspective of the Tripitaka, 
and it looks like thanks to the probing of folks like yourself, major 
progress. On doing a little more digging (I didn't even have to ask 
my lama on this one), I turned up this very interesting essay on 
meditation from the Tibetan perspective you may find interesting, 
which may clarify a lot of things. It sure did for me.

It appears that indeed tantra is nothing but another variation on 
samatha & vipassana practice, with a shift in emphasis. What this 
means is I've been looking at the problem the wrong way THE ENTIRE 
TIME, thinking tantra is its own thing somehow.

Not only is it now terribly demystified (I am almost sad in my 
happiness at this fact!), it is now quite apparent what's going on, 
been going on with it, and I was too dumb (or didn't look deeply 
enough) to catch this. It certainly isn't presented this way to 
students, I can say this with total assurance. Jon, perhaps you may 
be interested in perusing this linki. I think it clarifies a lot of 
things--at least it certainly has for me:

http://www.nalandabodhi.org/tranquility.html

> Erik, I would not wish to discourage you from
> expressing yourself as best you feel suits, but I hope
> you won't mind if I sometimes ask for verification
> according to the nitty-gritty of the abhidahmma where
> I think this might be useful.

Jon, I think you can see how much I appreciate and am indebted to you 
for your probing in this manner, because through this you've forced 
me into a line of research that just totally terminated any issues I 
was having with tantra. This is one of the big reasons I've been 
doing this research at all, because I am intent on getting this 100% 
right, no errors, and so long as there appear to be discrepancies I 
am going to dig until I get resolution somehow. I can't afford to be 
wrong. Neither can you, or any of us. 

Many many deep bows and thank-yous, Jonothan, because this would not 
have been possible without your expert's eye and probing on the 
issues I was unable to see owing to my own lack of knowledge.

Erik

 
5124 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 9:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana)

 
  Erik

> > Certainly, panna of the satipatthana kind when
> > developed will lead to the uprooting of
> defilements. 
> > But the panna arising with samatha can never do
> more
> > than temproarily subdue kilesa.
> 
> Jonothan,
> 
> What you said needs to be qualified. Samatha ALONE
> sans vipassana 
> can't uproot the kilesas. Samatha COMBINED with
> vipassana (which is 
> the orthodox Tibetan approach) can and does. This is
> through the 
> union of samatha & vipassana alternating with
> rupajhana appana. One 
> enters and abides in one of the rupajhanas until
> very stable and one 
> has very strong and "bright" samatha, and then exits
> temporarily and 
> applies vipassana to negate with one's understanding
> of 
> emptiness/anatta whatever one sees arising as "I" or
> "self" among the 
> khandas, then one returns to jhana, alternating. In
> this way one the 
> jhanas and samatha & vipassana act as mutual support
> conditions for 
> one another, and provide the conditions for
> lokuttara nana through 
> repeated application of the antidotes to "inherent
> existence." 

But as I read you here (and apologies in advance if
again I misread you again!), it is the panna arising
at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the kilesa.
 The object of the citta at that moment would be a
reality, whereas the object of the citta at the
[preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept (the
nimitta of the kammatthana).  

That being so, in what sense can it be said that the
samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and
different object entirely (not to mention different
function)?  

And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity of
vipassana alone uprooting kilesa?

Jon


 
5125 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Erik

Two snips from your post (which i find contains many
points for discussion)

REDUCING AKUSALA
> > > For example, there is the practice of "pure
> vision"
> > > where one 
> > > visualizes all beings as already perfected
> Buddhas.
>  
> > If you can 'deal with' dosa in this manner (which
> i of
> > course would not agree with), what's wrong with a
> dose
> > of good old-fashioned metta or uppekkha?
> 
> Jon, when you're placed in a situation that
> conditions a habitual 
> akusala reaction (returning anger with anger, for
> example), and you 
> restrain it at that moment you typically respond in
> anger, what is 
> the result? More akusala or more kusala? If
> furthermore you've halted 
> a habitual reaction, then that reaction will have
> fewer causes to 
> arise again. If we respond with love to anger
> repeatedly, for 
> example, what is the result? A net increase in
> kusala or a net 
> increase in akusala? Which is preferable when one is
> challenged by a 
> situation that engenders anger? To apply this
> antidote or simply 
> unconsciously react? That is the stark choice we
> have.

We can not of course assume that the akusala in
question is wholly 'replaced' (or however you conceive
of it) by kusala.  The motivation could be, for
example, fear of criticism or concern about our image
in the eyes of others.  It might even be desire for
progress on the path, especially if we regard the
presence or absence of akusala as some kind of measure
of our progress.  Or we might just not like the
akusala - and so dosa.

Even with the 'best' of motives, there are bound to be
akusala moments arising along with the kusala.  There
is nothing wrong with this, since we all have the
accumulated akusala (anusaya).  But it is better to
see the moments for what they truly are than to kid
ourselves that they are wholly kusala.

To the extent that kusala does arise in the kind of
situation you have described, it would not be
vipassana, anyway.  Or do you see it differently?  

This leads on to ...

THE MEANING OF 'VIPASSANA'
> > To make discussion simpler, may I suggest that
> > vipassana refers to a moment of citta accompanied
> by
> > panna that understands the true nature of the
> object
> > of the citta at that moment.  Do you have any
> comments
> > on this as a basis for further discussion?
> 
> That is certainly one valid way of describing it. In
> the same way one 
> can describe the feeling of being "in love" as a
> systemic change 
> brought about by increases in phenylethylamine,
> dopamine, and a 
> number of other neurotransmitters and hormones,
> accompanied by 
> restlessness and excitement and irrational ideation.
> 
> Or, if one were a Bard one could put it like this:
> 
> "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?   
> Thou art more lovely and more temperate:   
> Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,   
> And summer's lease hath all too short a date;   
>    
> "Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
> And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;   
> And every fair from fair sometime declines,   
> By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimm'd.  
> 
>    
> "But thy eternal summer shall not fade,   
> Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
> Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,   
> When in eternal lines to time thou growest:�   
>    
> "So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,   
> So long lives this, and this gives life to thee."
> 
> In the end how the Dhamma is rendered is a matter of
> what is 
> beneficial for the listener, as has always been
> true.

This is no doubt true.

 In the end it 
> is saying the same thing in a different language
> (and just how 
> different has become very clear to me since joining
> dsg).

But how can one know that the 2 people are talking
about the same thing?  Is there a methodology for
figuring this out?  I am not trying to be pedantic
here, simply to show the difficulty of coming to a
conclusion one way or the other unless one of the 2 is
able to confirm the fact in terms of the other's
language (ie. in the present case, either you accept
my difintion or I accept yours - or else we look for
common ground in another formulation)

Jon



 
5126 From: Erik 
Date: Thu May 3, 2001 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik

> But as I read you here (and apologies in advance if
> again I misread you again!), it is the panna arising
> at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the kilesa.
>  The object of the citta at that moment would be a
> reality, whereas the object of the citta at the
> [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept (the
> nimitta of the kammatthana).  
> 
> That being so, in what sense can it be said that the
> samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and
> different object entirely (not to mention different
> function)?  
> 
> And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity of
> vipassana alone uprooting kilesa?

Jon, I think you and I and all the Theravadins and Tibetans agree on 
the point that there is no hope of lokuttara-nana withouth vipassana. 
The link I gave you earlier from Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche states this 
explictly:

"Insight or vipashyana (lhatong) is extremely important because it 
can eradicate the mental afflictions, whereas tranquillity (shamatha) 
alone cannot. That is why one wants to be able to practice them in a 
unified manner.  The unified practice of tranquillity and insight has 
three steps.  First one has to practice tranquillity; then one has to 
practice insight; and then one brings the two together.  Doing this 
will eradicate the cause of samsara (which is mental afflictions), 
thereby eradicating the result of samsara (which is suffering).  For 
that reason, it is improper to become too attached to the delight or 
pleasure or tranquillity, because tranquillity alone is not enough.

"As was said by Lord Milarepa in a song, 
Shin� ge zing la ma shen par
Lhatong ge metok trung par shok

(Not being attached to the pool of tranquillity 
May I generate the flower of insight)."

Jestun Milarepa, in case you don't know, is one of the most famous 
yogis of Tibet, who is revered as a key lineage-holder for the Kagyu, 
Sakya, and Geluk-pa (the one I practice in as well as the lineage of 
the Dalai Lama) lineages.

Dzogchen Rinpoche continues:

"In these two lines, tranquillity is compared to a pool of water, and 
insight to a lotus flower which grows up out of that pool and 
beautifies the pool.  If one is content just with the pool of water, 
which exists in order that the flower can grow, and one does not 
actually grow the flower, it is not beautified.  If however one 
attempts to grow the flower  without the pool, it cannot arise 
(lotuses can only grow out of a body of water); and even if it could 
arise, it would dry up."

This should make is diamond-clear that vipassana is taught as an 
ironclad-prerequisite to lokuttara nana in Tibetan Buddhiam. This is 
the same for all other Mahayana schools.

I want to add one comment though. The essay on meditation I posted a 
link to mentions a "lower" level of vipassana-nana the Tibetans 
associate with "hinayana" (though no such term exists in the Tibetan, 
and is a mistranslation that does NOT suggest Theravada, to be clear, 
and never has in the Tibetan forumlation). What is taught is that 
there is a level of "subtle impermanence" (I think it's possibly the 
same thing as bhanganupassana nana) that arises before actual 
lokuttara-nana, and this is seeing things passing away. It is a 
lower, mundane vipassana-nana, though. This is a source of some 
confusion, actually, because I took this to mean earlier that 
sukkhavipassaka practitioners don't gain true supramundane insight, 
which is something I took away from what I've been taught. This is 
obviously a misconception the kind people here have clarified for me 
though the process of "momentary" jhanas.

 
 
5127 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 0:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Hi Erik,

I'm rather behind which doesn't make for good debating
I know! Back to juggling household chores, errands,
teaching and income tax returns ;-)

--- Erik wrote: 
> 
> What is a satisfactory yardstick for developing
> kusala (and 
> forget "at this moment"--that is a sukkhavipassaka
> strategy; jhanas 
> and the union of samatha & vipassana are the primary
> practices in 
> Tibetan Buddhism, recall), such that one can
> determine what 
> is "Buddhist" from what is not? Where does one draw
> the line? 

For me, the ONLY yardstick for developing kusala
(wholesomeness) is 'at this moment'. What other moment
is there? Am I being dense and missing your point I
wonder? If there is no kusala citta (consciousness) at
the sila, dana, samatha or vipassana level right now,
any other concern about its development is academic as
far as I know.

I wouldn't call it a sukkhavipassaka strategy or any
other strategy, but the way it is. If there is no
recognition or understanding of a moment of samatha
now, how can it possibly be developed at any other
time?

I fully agree that Buddhism does not have a monopoly
on kusala and its development. Indeed the term or
label is not what is important. However, for any kind
of kusala to develop, there has to be the
understanding of moments of kusala when they arise as
distinct from moments of akusala. Furthermore, without
hearing the Buddha's teachings, any development of
kusala will be taken for self or 'my kusala'.

 Only 
> what is found in the Tipitaka (this seems to be the
> prevalent view 
> here)? This seems far too limiting to me. Every
> major Zen and Tibetan 
> school teaches ariyan Dhamma, but no debate can
> settle this; only 
> direct application and experience of the fruits can.
> The proof in the 
> pudding is always in the tasting. To mix metaphors,
> there a saying: 
> if the book on ducks says one thing about their
> behavior, but you 
> observe the ducks acting differently in the wild,
> believe the ducks, 
> not the books. 

agreed. So lets see how those ducks are behaving now!
The more we've heard, considered and begun to
'observe' them, the more likely it is that they'll be
observed correctly in the wild.

Even according to the Buddha what is
> found in the 
> Tipitaka only addresses a handful worth of the
> leaves found in the 
> entire forest, so this is not suprising.

I think that handful can keep us busy for a few aeons!
 
> There are two very general currents of thought I
> have observed 
> regarding the Dhamma, trends that generalize even
> more broadly in 
> society into orthodoxy and heterodoxy. The orthodox
> version says the 
> Dhamma is a static entity; the heterodox version
> that accepts the 
> Dhamma as a dynamic process transforming
> moment-to-moment, 
> necessarily, because there are no static entites to
> be found 
> anywhere. I am, and must be, of the heterodox
> category. I have seen 
> too many different approaches work to pass judgment
> on any of them. I 
> have seen the fruits both in my own life and in
> those of others. For 
> me this is not a matter for doubt.

I'm more interested in the dhammas as realities which
are dynamically different at each moment. If any
approach helps me to understand more about what is
being experienced now, that is what I consider
fruitful.
> 
> Each approach has its advantages, each has its
> disadvantages. I have 
> seen no indication of the relative superiority or
> inferiority of any 
> of them. I have seen the relative helpfulness or
> unhelpfulness of 
> traditions for those of specific accumulations,
> though. In general 
> terms, those who actually practice and sincerely try
> to embody the 
> teachings of a given school always seem to come out
> as friends to be 
> associate with who are worthy of emulation. To me,
> anyway.

Again, I'd say, that regardless of the different
accumulations, any teaching that helps us to know the
worlds as they are at this moment is of great value. I
don't think the label or school is what matters. The
Tipitaka just happens to be a very taasty pudding!

Look forward to hearing more from you as always, Erik,

Sarah




 
5128 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 0:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] another possible duplication!

 
  Dear Amara,

--- Amara  wrote
> Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group
> to save them the 
> trouble of any more work than necessary, we're all
> quite busy as it is 
> and I would like the discussions here to be as
> beneficial as it can be 
> for all concerned.

When we started dsg we knew very well that it would
not always be easy and there would be many occasions
when members would not agree with our decisions, but
we're very greatful to have the chance to do our best.

As we've said to you, most your posts are extremely
beneficial and we'd be very sorry if you were to leave
the list when you can help us all so much.
> 
> Thank you for all your kindnesses and very
> interesting discussions we 
> have had, I really appreciated all that I have
> learned from all of 
> you.  And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I
> am sure you will 
> all be of great benefit to many others in the
> future.

Dsg is really like a family in so many ways; we don't
always agree and we may not always choose our words
appropriately, but we have each others' best interests
at heart ;-)  
> 
> May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he
> intended in 
> teaching it,
> 
Let's continue helping and supporting each other in
this endeavour.

metta,
Sarah

p.s thanks too for your participation in all the super
discussions while we were in Bkk too.



 
5129 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 1:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Viriya & Vi~n~nana [Re: chanda, lobha, viri...

 
  Dear Num, Howard & Dan,

--- Num wrote: > 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> I am too, trying to understand the subtle different
> meaning between each 
> cetasika. At time when I read from one book, it
> seems to be clear and 
> straight forward to grasp but when I think about
> some mental phenomena or try 
> to put citta and cetasika together, I feel like I
> miss the big picture.  
> Awareness and thinking about Dhamma is different,
> but careful listening and 
> studying, I believe, can condition right
> understanding.     I will try to 
> share with you what I understand so far.  I like
> your question, it's kind of 
> helping me thinking in different angles.

yes, it is only thinking, but it can be helpful to
consider; for one thing it shows up what is taken for
self so often. It doesn't mean that we need to
pinpoint or label the reality appearing now.
> 
 
> My understanding is Jivitindriya-cetasika supports, 
> nourishes and maintains 
> life of citta and cetasika which coarise with at
> that moment. 
> Jivitindriya-cetasika coarises with every citta, and
> supports both citta and 
> all cetasikas which coarise at that moment. It's one
> of the seven universal 
> cetasika.

Yes this is how I understand it. It's significant that
it arises at every moment with every citta, giving
life to citta at this very moment regardless of
whether it's seeing or thinking or whatever.

> While viriya, (energy, effort, viriya-cetasika is
> the cetasika that 
> relentlessly perseveres to support its
> sahajati-kamma).  Viriya cetasika 
> coarises with every lobha-mula-citta. 

Yes, it arises with every kusala and akusala citta..it
can be right or wrong effort. It can be of different
degrees (whether kusala or akusala) and is an indriya
and factor of the 8fold path when developed with panna
(wisdom). 

Thina and
> middha cetasika arise mainly 
> in lobha-mula-citta.  So viriya still do it's job in
> lobha-mula-citta. 

They also arise with some cittas with dosa. At all
these moments with thina middha (sloth & torpor) the
viriya is lazy to perform kusala of any kind. They
don't just arise when we feel sleepy. The proximate
cause is unwise attention (ayoniso manisakara) to the
object. Only the arahat has no more thina and middha,
moments when there is no 'energy' for dana, sila or
bhavana. Even now while we're considering dhamma,
there can be moments of boredom and distraction
accompanied by these states and akusala viriya. 

I 
> think, when we are drowsy, there are some level of
> lobha there, which need to 
> have viriya in attaching to something.   Viriya is
> one of predominant 
> factors, adhipati-paccaya.  It's a predominant
> factor in accomplishment a 
> task, both good and bad. 

yes, this is helpful. When we're drowsy, I think it
can be with lobha or dosa. What do you think? When
thina and middha are accompanied by lobha, they can
also be accompanied by wrong view or not.
> 
> 
> So to me jivitindriya-cetasika kind of support and
> maintain.    Viriya is an 
> effort or energy direct into something.
> 
> 
> Well, that my version of my understanding.  I am not
> sure that it makes 
> anything clearer.

I think this is all very helpful, Num

Someone also asked about the vinnana in this big
picture as distinct from the mental factors
accompanying it. So, for example, at this moment of
seeing, the seeing is vinnana or citta (same realitY)
which is the chief in experiencing the visible object.
the citta is accompanied by jivitindriya and the other
universal mental factors which arise with every citta
(i.e. phassa (contact), vedana (feeling),
sanna(perception), cetana (volition), ekaggata
(concentration0 and manisakara (attention).

Seeing just sees the object while the cetasikas have
their own distinct characteristics and functions, but
they all depend on each other to perform their tasks.
At a moment of thinking, the citta again is chief in
cognizing the object (concept) and viriya  and lobha
and thina and middha may all perform their supporting
functions quite distinct again from the chief
cognizing.

Some of these realities like jivitindriya or phassa
are very difficult indeed to know and although it's
helpful to consider the details, we shouldn't try to
'catch' them or be concerned about what the object of
awareness is! Actually, perhaps I should say they're
all difficult to know, but some are pretty well
impossible! I don't find this discouraging at all but
I know some people may. 

There may have been other points raised or points here
that need further clarification, in which case I'm
apprciating the chance to consider all these
realities.

Best rgds for now and thanks again for the quotes from
the website, Num.

Sarah





 
5130 From: Howard 
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] another possible duplication!

 
  Hi, Amara -

  I saw from Howard's message that messages get all mixed up at this 
> moment, so am sending this in again, hoping at least one gets through 
> to say farewell and thanks to all of you!
> 
> A.
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, and 
> the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the 
> following message:
> 
> 
> >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott <Moderators>
> >Subject: Yellow card
> >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
> >
> >Amara,
> >
> >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
> >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
> >for this list.
> >
> >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
> >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
> >posts without further notice.
> >
> >Jon & Sarah
> 
> Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them the 
> trouble of any more work than necessary, we're all quite busy as it is 
> and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it can be 
> for all concerned.
> 
> Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions we 
> have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of 
> you.  And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you will 
> all be of great benefit to many others in the future.  
> 
> Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book is 
> finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me your 
> address, I will be very happy to send it to you.  And those who are 
> interested of course, if any.  
> 
> May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in 
> teaching it,
> 
> Amara
> 
================================
       I don't know whether or not you have seen the number of posts 
expressing the hope that you will remain on the list. I urge you to 
reconsider. Thank you for the repeated offer of sending me a copy of the 
book. I will indeed appreciate your sending it when the time has come. I 
won't bother you with my address now, but will wait until you announce the 
readiness.
       Once again, Amara, I do very much urge you to remain on the list.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5131 From: DeBenedictis/Dhammapiyo   
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 6:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Yellow card

 
  Dear Amara,

Please stay with DSG!

Metta cittena,

Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo

 
5132 From: Erik 
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 7:30am
Subject: Re: Yellow card

 
  --- "DeBenedictis/Dhammapiyo" 
 wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> Please stay with DSG!
> 
> Metta cittena,
> 
> Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo

Hey Bikkhu D. Did you get my message about hooking up while you're in 
the USA?

My other email is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=194176211115158057024218046024249223134102091046167121181053161034046249121176170 than this one.

 
5133 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 8:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Yellow card

 
  Amara,

Take a big breath and an hot shower !  

I've really learnt a lot from you.

Metta from the the big old silent brazilian member !

:-) 
Leonardo


> Dear Amara,
> 
> Please reconsider. We are all human, and I am sure that Erik and 
> Marlon would find no benefit in your departure.
> 
> We are all part of the synod that verifies the Dhamma every day. 
> 
> Escape is not possible, unfortunately :-)
> 
> I for one am grateful for your kindnesses.
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > 
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > It seems that my messages are giving the wrong image of the group, 
> and 
> > the moderators, who are my very good friends, have sent me the 
> > following message:
> > 
> > 
> > >From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott 
> > >Subject: Yellow card
> > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:10 +0800 (CST)
> > >
> > >Amara,
> > >
> > >Your last one or two posts to both Erik and Marlon
> > >have all been inappropriate in either tone or content
> > >for this list.
> > >
> > >If there are any more inappropriate messages at any
> > >time, unhappily we will need to start moderating your
> > >posts without further notice.
> > >
> > >Jon & Sarah
> > 
> > Which I rather agree with, so I am leaving the group to save them 
> the 
> > trouble of any more work than necessary, we are all busy enough as 
> it 
> > is and I would like the discussions here to be as beneficial as it 
> can 
> > be for all concerned.
> > 
> > Thank you for all your kindnesses and very interesting discussions 
> we 
> > have had, I really appreciated all that I have learned from all of 
> > you.  And Thanks to Jon and Sarah for this group, I am sure you 
> will 
> > all be of great benefit to many others in the future.  
> > 
> > Howard, I will be announcing the in DhammaStudy.com when the book 
> is 
> > finally finished, and if you are still interested please send me 
> your 
> > address, I will be very happy to send it to you.  And those who are 
> > interested of course, if any.  
> > 
> > May we all benefit from the Buddha's teachings as he intended in 
> > teaching it,
> > 
> > Amara

 
5134 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 10:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana)

 
  Erik

Thanks for your extensive comments about the
connection between panna/nana of vipassana and the
eradication of defilements.  As you say, on this point
there is substantial agreement.

However, the focus of my post to you was the role of
samatha in the eradication of defilements.

Would I be summarising the Tibetan texts correctly if
I said-
1.  It is at a moment of vipassana, not samatha, that
defilements can be eradicated.
2.  However, the necessary nana only arises if the
moment of vipasana is preceded by a moment of samatha.
 (My apologies if this is too literal an
interpretation of your earlier post; please modify
this proposition accordingly).

Just trying to understand exactly how samatha fits
into the picture, according to your texts.  I fully
understand what you have said about Tibetan orthodoxy
- I am looking for the scriptural basis for that
approach. 

Jon

--- Erik wrote: >  Jonothan Abbott
>  wrote:
> > Erik
> 
> > But as I read you here (and apologies in advance
> if
> > again I misread you again!), it is the panna
> arising
> > at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the
> kilesa.
> >  The object of the citta at that moment would be a
> > reality, whereas the object of the citta at the
> > [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept
> (the
> > nimitta of the kammatthana).  
> > 
> > That being so, in what sense can it be said that
> the
> > samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and
> > different object entirely (not to mention
> different
> > function)?  
> > 
> > And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity
> of
> > vipassana alone uprooting kilesa?
> 
> Jon, I think you and I and all the Theravadins and
> Tibetans agree on 
> the point that there is no hope of lokuttara-nana
> withouth vipassana. 
> The link I gave you earlier from Dzogchen Ponlop
> Rinpoche states this 
> explictly:
> 
> "Insight or vipashyana (lhatong) is extremely
> important because it 
> can eradicate the mental afflictions, whereas
> tranquillity (shamatha) 
> alone cannot. That is why one wants to be able to
> practice them in a 
> unified manner.  The unified practice of
> tranquillity and insight has 
> three steps.  First one has to practice
> tranquillity; then one has to 
> practice insight; and then one brings the two
> together.  Doing this 
> will eradicate the cause of samsara (which is mental
> afflictions), 
> thereby eradicating the result of samsara (which is
> suffering).  For 
> that reason, it is improper to become too attached
> to the delight or 
> pleasure or tranquillity, because tranquillity alone
> is not enough.
> 
> "As was said by Lord Milarepa in a song, 
> Shin� ge zing la ma shen par
> Lhatong ge metok trung par shok
> 
> (Not being attached to the pool of tranquillity 
> May I generate the flower of insight)."
> 
> Jestun Milarepa, in case you don't know, is one of
> the most famous 
> yogis of Tibet, who is revered as a key
> lineage-holder for the Kagyu, 
> Sakya, and Geluk-pa (the one I practice in as well
> as the lineage of 
> the Dalai Lama) lineages.
> 
> Dzogchen Rinpoche continues:
> 
> "In these two lines, tranquillity is compared to a
> pool of water, and 
> insight to a lotus flower which grows up out of that
> pool and 
> beautifies the pool.  If one is content just with
> the pool of water, 
> which exists in order that the flower can grow, and
> one does not 
> actually grow the flower, it is not beautified.  If
> however one 
> attempts to grow the flower  without the pool, it
> cannot arise 
> (lotuses can only grow out of a body of water); and
> even if it could 
> arise, it would dry up."
> 
> This should make is diamond-clear that vipassana is
> taught as an 
> ironclad-prerequisite to lokuttara nana in Tibetan
> Buddhiam. This is 
> the same for all other Mahayana schools.
> 
> I want to add one comment though. The essay on
> meditation I posted a 
> link to mentions a "lower" level of vipassana-nana
> the Tibetans 
> associate with "hinayana" (though no such term
> exists in the Tibetan, 
> and is a mistranslation that does NOT suggest
> Theravada, to be clear, 
> and never has in the Tibetan forumlation). What is
> taught is that 
> there is a level of "subtle impermanence" (I think
> it's possibly the 
> same thing as bhanganupassana nana) that arises
> before actual 
> lokuttara-nana, and this is seeing things passing
> away. It is a 
> lower, mundane vipassana-nana, though. This is a
> source of some 
> confusion, actually, because I took this to mean
> earlier that 
> sukkhavipassaka practitioners don't gain true
> supramundane insight, 
> which is something I took away from what I've been
> taught. This is 
> obviously a misconception the kind people here have
> clarified for me 
> though the process of "momentary" jhanas.
> 




 
5135 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 10:39am
Subject: Attention Amara this is Marlon

 
  Dear Fellow Buddhist Amara

I have re-subscribed to this list on a temporary basis, that is just 
until you return in full force, after which I will take my leave. 
Lets put things into perspective here :-

It is very obvious to me that you care about spreading Buddhism, as 
shown by your long involvement in this group.

The fact that you referred to Jon and Sarah as your good friends, 
indicate that love for them still exists in your heart (Buddhist-Mind)

The only thing standing in your way is your feelings that were hurt, 
by what Jon and Sarah wrote to you.

For this you have two options: -

One is to rid yourself of self-pity, and return to the group a better 
person for yourself (Self-pity will feed on you, like a festering 
sore filled with maggots)

The other is to stay wallowing in self-pity and that will consume you 
totally.

If you return, I will give you the pleasure of telling me off on how 
arrogant and rude I am, I am actually looking forward to your next 
post- Believe-it-or-not.

Love Always Marlon McCall
 
Ps: Amara you noticed I used Self-pity and not Ego (you see I've 
changed a little towards you)

 
5136 From: Antony 
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 4:35pm
Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa?

 
  Derar Erik and Jon

this is a really interesting discussion you are having

in my experience the practice of tranquility is developed in order to 
lead to insight. But does the insight itself remove kilesa or is it 
the condition of mind developed that does not pre dispose itself to 
the arousal of the kilesas?


antony
(if that makes any sense)


  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik
> 
> Thanks for your extensive comments about the
> connection between panna/nana of vipassana and the
> eradication of defilements.  As you say, on this point
> there is substantial agreement.
> 
> However, the focus of my post to you was the role of
> samatha in the eradication of defilements.
> 
> Would I be summarising the Tibetan texts correctly if
> I said-
> 1.  It is at a moment of vipassana, not samatha, that
> defilements can be eradicated.
> 2.  However, the necessary nana only arises if the
> moment of vipasana is preceded by a moment of samatha.
>  (My apologies if this is too literal an
> interpretation of your earlier post; please modify
> this proposition accordingly).
> 
> Just trying to understand exactly how samatha fits
> into the picture, according to your texts.  I fully
> understand what you have said about Tibetan orthodoxy
> - I am looking for the scriptural basis for that
> approach. 
> 
> Jon
> 
> --- Erik wrote: > ---  Jonothan Abbott
> >  wrote:
> > > Erik
> > 
> > > But as I read you here (and apologies in advance
> > if
> > > again I misread you again!), it is the panna
> > arising
> > > at the moment of vipassana that eradicates the
> > kilesa.
> > >  The object of the citta at that moment would be a
> > > reality, whereas the object of the citta at the
> > > [preceding] moment of samatha would be a concept
> > (the
> > > nimitta of the kammatthana).  
> > > 
> > > That being so, in what sense can it be said that
> > the
> > > samatha uproots kilesa - different moment, and
> > > different object entirely (not to mention
> > different
> > > function)?  
> > > 
> > > And anyway, how does this negate the possibliity
> > of
> > > vipassana alone uprooting kilesa?
> > 
> > Jon, I think you and I and all the Theravadins and
> > Tibetans agree on 
> > the point that there is no hope of lokuttara-nana
> > withouth vipassana. 
> > The link I gave you earlier from Dzogchen Ponlop
> > Rinpoche states this 
> > explictly:
> > 
> > "Insight or vipashyana (lhatong) is extremely
> > important because it 
> > can eradicate the mental afflictions, whereas
> > tranquillity (shamatha) 
> > alone cannot. That is why one wants to be able to
> > practice them in a 
> > unified manner.  The unified practice of
> > tranquillity and insight has 
> > three steps.  First one has to practice
> > tranquillity; then one has to 
> > practice insight; and then one brings the two
> > together.  Doing this 
> > will eradicate the cause of samsara (which is mental
> > afflictions), 
> > thereby eradicating the result of samsara (which is
> > suffering).  For 
> > that reason, it is improper to become too attached
> > to the delight or 
> > pleasure or tranquillity, because tranquillity alone
> > is not enough.
> > 
> > "As was said by Lord Milarepa in a song, 
> > Shin� ge zing la ma shen par
> > Lhatong ge metok trung par shok
> > 
> > (Not being attached to the pool of tranquillity 
> > May I generate the flower of insight)."
> > 
> > Jestun Milarepa, in case you don't know, is one of
> > the most famous 
> > yogis of Tibet, who is revered as a key
> > lineage-holder for the Kagyu, 
> > Sakya, and Geluk-pa (the one I practice in as well
> > as the lineage of 
> > the Dalai Lama) lineages.
> > 
> > Dzogchen Rinpoche continues:
> > 
> > "In these two lines, tranquillity is compared to a
> > pool of water, and 
> > insight to a lotus flower which grows up out of that
> > pool and 
> > beautifies the pool.  If one is content just with
> > the pool of water, 
> > which exists in order that the flower can grow, and
> > one does not 
> > actually grow the flower, it is not beautified.  If
> > however one 
> > attempts to grow the flower  without the pool, it
> > cannot arise 
> > (lotuses can only grow out of a body of water); and
> > even if it could 
> > arise, it would dry up."
> > 
> > This should make is diamond-clear that vipassana is
> > taught as an 
> > ironclad-prerequisite to lokuttara nana in Tibetan
> > Buddhiam. This is 
> > the same for all other Mahayana schools.
> > 
> > I want to add one comment though. The essay on
> > meditation I posted a 
> > link to mentions a "lower" level of vipassana-nana
> > the Tibetans 
> > associate with "hinayana" (though no such term
> > exists in the Tibetan, 
> > and is a mistranslation that does NOT suggest
> > Theravada, to be clear, 
> > and never has in the Tibetan forumlation). What is
> > taught is that 
> > there is a level of "subtle impermanence" (I think
> > it's possibly the 
> > same thing as bhanganupassana nana) that arises
> > before actual 
> > lokuttara-nana, and this is seeing things passing
> > away. It is a 
> > lower, mundane vipassana-nana, though. This is a
> > source of some 
> > confusion, actually, because I took this to mean
> > earlier that 
> > sukkhavipassaka practitioners don't gain true
> > supramundane insight, 
> > which is something I took away from what I've been
> > taught. This is 
> > obviously a misconception the kind people here have
> > clarified for me 
> > though the process of "momentary" jhanas.
> > 

 
5137 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Fri May 4, 2001 4:20pm
Subject: Whats in a Name

 
  Fellow Buddhists (copy of post to D-L)

It would be acceptable if the only thing changed was the Name 
Buddhism, but unfortunately it is only a very small facet of the 
monumental changes that took place. 
After reading Below can you tell me what do you perceive as the 
original and true Dhamma in your opinion only-

Theravada Buddhism � 

First Buddhist Council -1 year after Lord Buddha's Death - Buddhism 
splits into 4 factions
10 yrs after  Lord Buddha's Death- Buddhism has split into 16 factions
Third Buddhist Council - Convened by King Ashoka and held at 
Pataliputra to remove Hindu beliefs and rituals from Buddhism
Fourth Buddhist Council (100 CE) - Buddhism had split into 500 
factions.
Ultimately, 18 schools were left, each with their own interpretations 
of various issues, and spread all over India and Southeast Asia. 
Today, only the school stemming from the Sri Lankan Theravadan 
survives


Mahayana Buddhism-

People were used to gods and heroes.  So, the Trikaya (three bodies) 
doctrine came into being:  Not only was Buddha a man who became 
enlightened, he was also represented by various god-like Buddhas in 
various appealing heavens, as well as by the Dharma itself, or 
Shunyata (emptiness), or Buddha-Mind

800 CE----A religious struggle in Tibet with local nature religion 
called Bonism which claimed the gods were angry with the acceptance 
of  Buddhism, by the Tibetans. Buddhism countered by installing local 
Tibetan deities as guardian to Buddha and Bodhisattvas and by 
accepting indigenous rituals).

New scriptures invented, Praj�aparamita, Suddharma-pundarika, 
Avalokiteshwara, Vimalakirti-nirdesha, Shurangama-samadhi, Sukhavati-
vyuha, etc

With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall

 
5138 From: Erik 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik
> 
> Thanks for your extensive comments about the
> connection between panna/nana of vipassana and the
> eradication of defilements.  As you say, on this point
> there is substantial agreement.
> 
> However, the focus of my post to you was the role of
> samatha in the eradication of defilements.
> 
> Would I be summarising the Tibetan texts correctly if
> I said-
> 1.  It is at a moment of vipassana, not samatha, that
> defilements can be eradicated.
> 2.  However, the necessary nana only arises if the
> moment of vipasana is preceded by a moment of samatha.
>  (My apologies if this is too literal an
> interpretation of your earlier post; please modify
> this proposition accordingly).
> 
> Just trying to understand exactly how samatha fits
> into the picture, according to your texts.  I fully
> understand what you have said about Tibetan orthodoxy
> - I am looking for the scriptural basis for that
> approach. 


No problemo. Without reference to any texts I can say that I can't 
imagine the jhanas without very bright, stable samatha being present.

Using the texts as references, it is said that one must first have 
samatha before vipassana, that without samatha no vipassana.

Master Shantideva (author of the important "Guide to the Bodhisatva's 
Way of Life," which is a core text in the Tibetan curriculum, notes:

"Having understood that the afflictive emotions 
Are overcome through special insight,
Thoroughly endowed with calm abiding,
One should first seek calm abiding.

"Commentary: Without samatha, the mere thorough analysis of phenomena 
is not capable of overcoming afflictive emotions. To cut something 
with a knife, we need a steady hand; without it we cannot cut 
anything well. Similarly, although the main cause of overcoming 
afflictive emotions is panna, the mere factor of panna without the 
factor of stability--calm abiding--cannot overcome afflictive 
emotions. For example, to chop a piece of wood we cannot chop here 
and there; we have to keep chopping in the same place. Similarly, it 
is not suitable to analyze a little here and there; we need the 
factor of stability. If we analyze within a very firm factor of 
stability, we will be able to overcome the afflictive emotions. If 
the wisdom that penetrates the mode of being is conjoined with an 
unfluctuating calm abiding, that sharp weapon of the wisdom of the 
Middle Way free from the two extremes can destroy every wrong 
conception. Therefore, we should initially seek calm abiding.)

"First debate:

"Objection: That without the attainment of samatha there is no 
attainment of vipassana contradicts Asanga's statement in 
the "Compendium of Manifest Knowledge":

"Some have attained special insight but have not attained calm 
abiding; in dependence on special insight they make effort at calm 
abiding." (author's commentary: if this statement is taken literally, 
then it indeed contradicts our system. It needs to be interpreted).

"Answer: it is not contradictory because the thought of this passage 
is that, in dependence upon special insight which directly realizes 
the four truths and is included within the preparations for the first 
jhana, one achieves samatha, included within an actual first jhana 
that directly realizes the Four Noble Truths.

"Commentary: Although in general we must achieve calm abiding forst 
and then achieve special insight, there are cases of achieving a type 
of special insight first and then a type of calm abiding. For 
example, there is a calm abiding, included within the Path of Seeing 
(Note: same as sotapatti) that is an effect of a special insight at 
the time of the Path of Preparation (note:: which refers to the stage 
directly preceding sotapatti where the higher levels of lokiya 
vipassana-nana arise, such as "subtle impermanence" of seeing dhammas 
passing away, and frightfulness, etc).

"Preparations and actual concentrations are necessary in a 
relationship of cause and effect. The preparations for the first 
jhana must precede the actual first jhana. What is being referred to 
here is a special insight directly realizing emptiness and the four 
truths and included within a preparation for the first jhana. If that 
special insight serves as the cause, then the effect could be calm 
abiding included within an actual first jhana, that calm abiding 
being a consciousness directly realizing emptiness and the four 
truths."

Jonothan, there is more to this which I can post if you're interested 
in diving deeper. This should provide some grist for debate if there 
is any dispute on any of these points, because this is as close to 
definitive as it gets in terms of my own school's presentation of 
same.

Comments from the perspective of the Tripitaka?

 
5139 From: Howard 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 2:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Yellow care (possible duplication!)

 
  Hi, Amara -

In a message dated 5/4/01 1:37:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Amara writes:


> I sent this out some time ago as well as a message to unsubscribe, 
> using Howard's convenient link, but it never got through, or perhaps I 
> am already moderated, contrary to what the moderators told me!
> 
> 
============================
       Your accumulations simply require that you remain on the list, Amara! 
;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5140 From: Howard 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 10:04am
Subject: Re: Attention Amara this is Marlon

 
  Hi, Marlon -

     If you will permit me the presumptuousness, I wish to tell you 
that I think this is a very lovely post of yours!

With metta,
Howard

--- Marlon McCall wrote:
> Dear Fellow Buddhist Amara
> 
> I have re-subscribed to this list on a temporary basis, that is 
just 
> until you return in full force, after which I will take my leave. 
> Lets put things into perspective here :-
> 
> It is very obvious to me that you care about spreading Buddhism, as 
> shown by your long involvement in this group.
> 
> The fact that you referred to Jon and Sarah as your good friends, 
> indicate that love for them still exists in your heart (Buddhist-
Mind)
> 
> The only thing standing in your way is your feelings that were 
hurt, 
> by what Jon and Sarah wrote to you.
> 
> For this you have two options: -
> 
> One is to rid yourself of self-pity, and return to the group a 
better 
> person for yourself (Self-pity will feed on you, like a festering 
> sore filled with maggots)
> 
> The other is to stay wallowing in self-pity and that will consume 
you 
> totally.
> 
> If you return, I will give you the pleasure of telling me off on 
how 
> arrogant and rude I am, I am actually looking forward to your next 
> post- Believe-it-or-not.
> 
> Love Always Marlon McCall
>  
> Ps: Amara you noticed I used Self-pity and not Ego (you see I've 
> changed a little towards you)

 
5141 From: Howard 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:33am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Vajrayana'

 
  Hi, Jon (and Erik) -

In a message dated 5/4/01 10:36:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Erik
> 
> Some general comments on the use of poetic or
> metaphorical language to express the dhamma.
> 
> There is indeed much of poetic language in the
> Tipitaka, especially, but not limited to, passages
> such as the Dhammapada and the Thera- and Therigatha. 
> Elsewhere, metaphors and similes abound.  So there can
> be no question of not allowing it.  But in the dhamma,
> precision is everything, and poeteic/mataphoric
> language as you know usually leaves room for different
> interpretations according to the listener's
> understanding/wrong view on the matter.  
> 
> All dhamma is capable of explanation in terms of
> absolute or moment-to-moment realities.  This is the
> purpose and function of the commentaries and
> abhidhamma pitaka, without which even the suttas would
> be opaque to us today because of our limited
> understanding compared to those listening to the
> Buddha during his lifetime.  Far from losing anything
> in the translation, such analysis helps us extract the
> true meaning ffor the texts and keeps us from taking
> things at their most superficial and mundane level.
> 
> Erik, I would not wish to discourage you from
> expressing yourself as best you feel suits, but I hope
> you won't mind if I sometimes ask for verification
> according to the nitty-gritty of the abhidahmma where
> I think this might be useful.
> 
============================
       I think your position here is quite balanced, though listing slightly 
away from the metaphorical side. I think that both forms of language are 
important, and I think that there can be benefits and dangers to be found in 
each. The benefit in precise and literal language is its objectivity and its 
appeal to the intellect. Its danger is in its potential for dryness and 
sterility, appealing only to the intellect. A danger in metaphorical/poetic 
language is, as you rightly point out, its non-objectivity and openness to 
misinterpretation. A benefit that can be found in it is its ability to appeal 
directly  to the heart and to direct, wordless intuition, bypassing concept 
and intellect. My position is also basically balanced, though I tend to list 
somewhat towards the metaphorical. The Buddha used both types of language in 
the suttas.The examples of literal speech are more than plentiful, but so are 
examples of the use of metaphor, such as in talking about "crossing the 
flood", attaining "the far shore", and so on and so forth. As I see it, 
whatever speech is used - so long as it is true, useful to be spoken, and 
appropriate in time and context, is for the good. 

With metta,
Howard
     

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         
5142 From: Darren Goh   
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 2:52pm
Subject: Internet Dhamma Messageboard is great!

 
  I want to thank all of you for providing this great Dhamma training 
ground! I couldn't find a better training place than this virtual 
community. All new list members, you have come to the right place. I 
think I am addicted, so much to learn here, and full of entertainment 
value too! It's better than soap opera. *laugh*

A few words to make your reading worthwhile:

"What we have to understand in working with anger and ill will is 
true of all the difficulties in our practice: that they are our 
strongest teachers. This became very clear in the spiritual community 
that G. I. Gurdjieff led in France. One old man who lived there was a 
personification of these qualities - irritable, messy, fighting with 
everyone, and unwilling to clean up or help at all. No one got along 
with him. Finally, after many frustrating months of trying to stay 
with the group, the old man left for Paris. Gurdjieff followed him 
and tried to convince him to return, but it had been too hard, and 
the man said no. At last Gurdjieff offered the man a very big monthly 
stipend if he return. How could he refuse ? When he returned, 
everyone was aghast, and on hearing that he was being paid (while 
othet were being charged a lot to be there), the community was up in 
arms. Gurdjieff called them together and after hearing their 
complaints laugned and explained: "This man is like yearst for 
bread." He said, "Without him here you would never really learn about 
anger, irritability, patience, and compassion. That's why you pay me, 
and why I hire him." - Seeking the Heart of Wisdom, Joseph Goldstein 
& Jack Kornfield. pg 48. 

PS: Marlon, I am in no way implying that you are the old man. :) 
Please know that I have the upmost respect for you. You protective 
spirit of Dhamma is very admirable. Especially after reading this 
book:  http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob.htm


Sincerely, 
Darren (a lurker)

 
5143 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 4:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Internet Dhamma Messageboard is great!

 
  Dear darren,
thanks for your post, which made me laugh too. It IS like a saop
opera sometimes - and we all act our parts in character. (And
when we act out of character that adds special interest). I am
sure it is a good learning place for active and lurking members.
Best wishes
robert
p.s.Gurdjieff knew alot about human nature alright.

--- Darren Goh  wrote:
> I want to thank all of you for providing this great Dhamma
> training 
> ground! I couldn't find a better training place than this
> virtual 
> community. All new list members, you have come to the right
> place. I 
> think I am addicted, so much to learn here, and full of
> entertainment 
> value too! It's better than soap opera. *laugh*
> 
> A few words to make your reading worthwhile:
> 
> "What we have to understand in working with anger and ill will
> is 
> true of all the difficulties in our practice: that they are
> our 
> strongest teachers. This became very clear in the spiritual
> community 
> that G. I. Gurdjieff led in France. One old man who lived
> there was a 
> personification of these qualities - irritable, messy,
> fighting with 
> everyone, and unwilling to clean up or help at all. No one got
> along 
> with him. Finally, after many frustrating months of trying to
> stay 
> with the group, the old man left for Paris. Gurdjieff followed
> him 
> and tried to convince him to return, but it had been too hard,
> and 
> the man said no. At last Gurdjieff offered the man a very big
> monthly 
> stipend if he return. How could he refuse ? When he returned, 
> everyone was aghast, and on hearing that he was being paid
> (while 
> othet were being charged a lot to be there), the community was
> up in 
> arms. Gurdjieff called them together and after hearing their 
> complaints laugned and explained: "This man is like yearst for
> 
> bread." He said, "Without him here you would never really
> learn about 
> anger, irritability, patience, and compassion. That's why you
> pay me, 
> and why I hire him." - Seeking the Heart of Wisdom, Joseph
> Goldstein 
> & Jack Kornfield. pg 48. 
> 
> PS: Marlon, I am in no way implying that you are the old man.
> :) 
> Please know that I have the upmost respect for you. You
> protective 
> spirit of Dhamma is very admirable. Especially after reading
> this 
> book:  http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob.htm
> 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Darren (a lurker) 
>  


 
5144 From: Herman 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Whats in a Name

 
  Marlon,

You are a marvel!!!!

I have read this post and your posts to friend Amara asking her to 
return to the list, and I am plagued by one question:

Are you the same Marlon who is not very fond of Jains?
(Serious question)If you understand the huge diversity of "heresies" 
that have arisen over time, and you understand the political and 
social nature of the seedbed in which these teachings were born, why 
the special attachment to the loathing of Jains, whatever they may 
be. Surely there are different views within the Jain community as 
well? I am not being critical of you , I wish to understand.

Kind Regards


Herman




--- Marlon McCall wrote:
> Fellow Buddhists (copy of post to D-L)
> 
> It would be acceptable if the only thing changed was the Name 
> Buddhism, but unfortunately it is only a very small facet of the 
> monumental changes that took place. 
> After reading Below can you tell me what do you perceive as the 
> original and true Dhamma in your opinion only-
> 
> Theravada Buddhism � 
> 
> First Buddhist Council -1 year after Lord Buddha's Death - Buddhism 
> splits into 4 factions
> 10 yrs after  Lord Buddha's Death- Buddhism has split into 16 
factions
> Third Buddhist Council - Convened by King Ashoka and held at 
> Pataliputra to remove Hindu beliefs and rituals from Buddhism
> Fourth Buddhist Council (100 CE) - Buddhism had split into 500 
> factions.
> Ultimately, 18 schools were left, each with their own 
interpretations 
> of various issues, and spread all over India and Southeast Asia. 
> Today, only the school stemming from the Sri Lankan Theravadan 
> survives
> 
> 
> Mahayana Buddhism-
> 
> People were used to gods and heroes.  So, the Trikaya (three 
bodies) 
> doctrine came into being:  Not only was Buddha a man who became 
> enlightened, he was also represented by various god-like Buddhas in 
> various appealing heavens, as well as by the Dharma itself, or 
> Shunyata (emptiness), or Buddha-Mind
> 
> 800 CE----A religious struggle in Tibet with local nature religion 
> called Bonism which claimed the gods were angry with the acceptance 
> of  Buddhism, by the Tibetans. Buddhism countered by installing 
local 
> Tibetan deities as guardian to Buddha and Bodhisattvas and by 
> accepting indigenous rituals).
> 
> New scriptures invented, Praj�aparamita, Suddharma-pundarika, 
> Avalokiteshwara, Vimalakirti-nirdesha, Shurangama-samadhi, 
Sukhavati-
> vyuha, etc
> 
> With Utmost Respect Always
> BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
> Marlon McCall

 
5145 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Beginning- discouraged, depressed

 
  Dear Rob & friends,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Nina wrote
to me as I mentioned some people feel
> discouraged:
> 
> "Each level of kusala is valuable, we should not
> despise kusala
> such as
> anumodana dana, or helping, even without pa~n~naa.
> And without
> the 
> Buddha we
> would not know about these kusala, we should be
> grateful and
> happy. 

Rob, I'm glad you raised this topic as quite a few
people tell me they feel discouraged and depressed at
times. We may think we've studied the dhamma for quite
a long time and that there should be more awareness
and understanding or that we should always be friendly
and helpful with our 'sunny' personalities apparent. 

When we have any idea that 'we' should be any other
way, it shows the clinging to self at that moment. At
those times we forget about the opportunity for metta
or dana or for knowing more about whatever reality is
presenting itself. We can become obsessed with
ourselves. I've always found this verse from the Udana
rather poignant:

"I visited all quarters with my mind 
Nor found I any dearer than myself; 
Self is likewise to every other dear; 
Who loves himself will never harm another."

S. i, 75; Ud. 47

(I copied out some interesting notes from the
commentary to this, but I seem to have lost them when
my students arrived a little early!!...will happily do
so again if anyone is interested.)
 
>The fact that one is
> disheartened is
> also a
> conditioned nama, it will not stay. 
> Listening thirty years is short, we all know. But we
> have
> confidence, we are beginning on the Path. Sarah
> said, 
> we
> are in nursery school, and I like that very much. We
> should be
> grateful 
> to
> be beginners. There must be a beginning and once it
> will lead to
> the 
> goal,
> we do not know when. We have to accept that there
> are ups and
> downs 
> along
> the Path.

When we have expectations about the progress or
development of skilful states, again there is no
detachment from what is conditioned already. We cling
to being a better person instead of appreciating just
a moment of kusala (wholesomeness of any kind) at this
moment. 

Yesterday before my class, I planned to write a couple
of posts here, but I felt so tired, I had to lie down.
There was some dosa (aversion) and 'resistance' to
feeling tired but as I lay down drowsily, there were
conditions to reflect on thina and middha as being
lazy for kusala (sloth & torpor), a little awareness
of the dosa being experienced and then moments of calm
as there were conditions to reflect on some kindness
I'd had the opportunity to show to some waiters in the
morning. 

Any moments of kusala are so valuable and I'm so
grateful I know just a very little about the
difference between kusala and akusala states from
listening and considering the dhamma.

Finally, I am just reminded (prompted by recent
discussions with K.Sujin) that while we study and
consider and practice, we should remember the purpose
of the Teachings, even as we read and listen now so
that we can 'practice' both for our own benefit and
that of others :

"These are the four types of individuals to be found
existing in the world." 

Anguttara Nikaya IV.96
Raga-vinaya Sutta
The Subduing of Passion

"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be
found existing in the world. Which four? The one who
practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that
of others. The one who practices for the benefit of
others but not for his/her own. The one who practices
for his/her own benefit but not for that of others.
The one who practices for his/her own benefit and for
that of others. 

"Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre -- burning at
both ends, covered with excrement in the middle -- is
used as fuel neither in a village nor in the
wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the
individual who practices neither for his/her own
benefit nor for that of others. The individual who
practices for the benefit of others but not for
his/her own is the higher & more refined of these two.
The individual who practices for his/her own benefit
but not for that of others is the highest & most
refined of these three. The individual who practices
for his/her own benefit and for that of others is, of
these four, the foremost, the chief, the most
outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a
cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter;
from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee;
and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the
foremost -- in the same way, of these four, the
individual who practices for his/her own benefit and
for that of other is the foremost, the chief, the most
outstanding, the highest, & supreme. 

"These are the four types of individuals to be found
existing in the world." 

Anguttara Nikaya IV.95
Chavalata Sutta
The Firebrand

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-95.html

Best wishes and my hope that those who feel
discouraged or despondent at times may feel a little
more encouraged even if all we can do is to express a
little metta.

Sarah

(Mike, thanks for yr help in locating the suttas)






 
5146 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Internet Dhamma Messageboard is great!

 
  Darren,

This is a very funny story....!!! 

Someone should do a study on 'coming out' posts....we
have some grand entrances!

Glad you're having such a good time....just a little
while someone commented it was all too 'dry'...so
you've timed your arrival better.

Hope to hear some more about you and your comments, so
no more lurking!

Sarah


--- Darren Goh  wrote: > I
want to thank all of you for providing this great
> Dhamma training 
> ground! I couldn't find a better training place than
> this virtual 
> community. All new list members, you have come to
> the right place. I 
> think I am addicted, so much to learn here, and full
> of entertainment 
> value too! It's better than soap opera. *laugh*
> 
> A few words to make your reading worthwhile:
> 
> "What we have to understand in working with anger
> and ill will is 
> true of all the difficulties in our practice: that
> they are our 
> strongest teachers. This became very clear in the
> spiritual community 
> that G. I. Gurdjieff led in France. One old man who
> lived there was a 
> personification of these qualities - irritable,
> messy, fighting with 
> everyone, and unwilling to clean up or help at all.
> No one got along 
> with him. Finally, after many frustrating months of
> trying to stay 
> with the group, the old man left for Paris.
> Gurdjieff followed him 
> and tried to convince him to return, but it had been
> too hard, and 
> the man said no. At last Gurdjieff offered the man a
> very big monthly 
> stipend if he return. How could he refuse ? When he
> returned, 
> everyone was aghast, and on hearing that he was
> being paid (while 
> othet were being charged a lot to be there), the
> community was up in 
> arms. Gurdjieff called them together and after
> hearing their 
> complaints laugned and explained: "This man is like
> yearst for 
> bread." He said, "Without him here you would never
> really learn about 
> anger, irritability, patience, and compassion.
> That's why you pay me, 
> and why I hire him." - Seeking the Heart of Wisdom,
> Joseph Goldstein 
> & Jack Kornfield. pg 48. 
> 
> PS: Marlon, I am in no way implying that you are the
> old man. :) 
> Please know that I have the upmost respect for you.
> You protective 
> spirit of Dhamma is very admirable. Especially after
> reading this 
> book:  http://www.ambedkar.org/books/dob.htm
> 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Darren (a lurker) 



 
5147 From: Herman 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:21pm
Subject: Laundry

 
  Hi all,

I am sorry if the issue I am raising is considered provocative or out 
of line, it is something I have been thinking about, and I simply 
would like to canvas other thoughts on this matter.

Social interaction can be difficult. It can be the most difficult 
thing there is. The things that other people say and do, how they 
expose the little veils of protection we carry around to help us 
avoid the reality that we all share. Even when people are ostensibly 
heading in the same direction, they still require a manual on how to 
interact, a Vinaya.

Even when we are not meeting face to face, but restrict ourself to 
typing english language sentences (with a bit of Pali thrown in) to 
each other over the Internet, we come across anger, aversion 
regarding the other view, clinging to the own view etc in ourselves. 
This is absolutely not a criticism of myself or any else. It is 
simply an observation of myself, and a projection that it may be the 
same elsewhere.

But really, these feelings that arise as part of this Internet 
interaction are not a problem. They are there, and an acknowledgement 
that this is what is happening right now is a good response, I reckon.

(I am finally getting to the gist of this post)

I have been thinking that there may be a whole lot of off-list 
posting going on, in a well-intentioned effort to sanitise the 
appearance of the list . If this off-list posting falls completely 
outside of the terms of reference of the list than that is nothing to 
to with the list, no issue there. 

(I have received a very small number of off-list posts, and this post 
is absolutely, unequivocally not prompted by any of them)

But if the off-list posting is connected with things that are being 
discussed on the list, then there is a chance that a separate , 
private bubble arises, a separate private sangha arises.

(I am starting to have misgivings about this post, but I have been 
typing and editing for a fair while , and I do think my intentions 
are OK , so I'll keep going.)

To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with our laundry being 
aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection of a current state 
of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, edit , revise, till 
we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and discuss it privately 
with someone we feel comfortable with in our laundry, not really 
knowing whether it is clean or dirty?

With lovingkindness

Herman

 
5148 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: uprooting your kilesa?

 
  Antony

--- Antony wrote: > Derar Erik and Jon
> 
> this is a really interesting discussion you are
> having
> 
> in my experience the practice of tranquility is
> developed in order to 
> lead to insight. But does the insight itself remove
> kilesa or is it 
> the condition of mind developed that does not pre
> dispose itself to 
> the arousal of the kilesas?

A good question.  Your question neatly brings into
focus some of the differences between samatha bhavana
(the development of tranquillity) and vipassana
bhavana (the development of insight, or
understanding).

The development of samatha is all about developing
wholesome states of mind.  In order to achieve this to
its highest degree, the mind is trained to the extent
that the kilesas do not arise or, as you have so
neatly put it, the mind is not disposed to the arousal
of the kilesas.  This is achieved by attaining one
pointedness of mind on one of the 40 meditation
objects (kammatthana).  Only those 40 objects are
suitable for the development of samatha.

Vipassana, or insight, is the development of awareness
of a characteristic of a reality as appearing at that
moment which, when developed, leads to the
understanding of the true nature of the
characteristics of that reality and of all realities. 
There are no particular 'objects' that are suitable
for awareness or understanding - any reality that
appears at a given moment can be the object of
awareness if awareness arises at that moment.

Coming to your question, while kilesas are subdued in
the development of samatha at its higher levels, they
are not actually eradicated.  This means they will
arise again in the future, given the right conditions.
 Only the panna (understanding) developed by vipassana
can eradicate kilesa finally.

Whether the development of tranquillity is in fact
necessary for the development of insight is a matter
of some debate.  My own view is that it is not (but
that is a whole other subject for debate!).

Antony, as a dhamma practitioner of some considerable
experience, you no doubt have some views of your own
on this subject.  Do share them!

Jon


 
5149 From: robert 
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 11:52pm
Subject: Re: Laundry

 
  Nice one Herman,--- 

Herman wrote:



> 
> To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with our laundry being 
> aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection of a current 
state 
> of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, edit , revise, 
till 
> we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and discuss it privately 
> with someone we feel comfortable with in our laundry, not really 
> knowing whether it is clean or dirty?

I think we do what we do. This being a Dhamma list some of it is 
kusala (wholesome)- possibly more so than in most interactions.
For myself even when I write something that looks kusala there is 
quite often a hint or more of akusala. If it sounds good (or I think 
so) for sure that is mana(conceit). If I want others to like it that 
is clinging. These factors are sometimes stronger if I spend time and 
labour over it than with a quick reply.
Nevertheless there are outward ways of interacting with people. The 
monks have their vinaya which help to remind them also of the cittas 
that condition behaviour. We are writing on a forum where kindness, 
rightview, compassion, patience and other wholesome qualities are 
revered. This tends to modify our writing so that it conforms to some 
degree with these beneficial characteristics - even if often our 
innermost motives are tainted.
Sometimes it is the right time to be very direct in a reply, while 
other times more subtlety helps one to listen better, I think. 
I find writing on this list affects my speech and thinking also in 
other arenas. It becomes a little more clear whenever I'm tempted 
into harsh speech or speech about trivial matters.
This is just my feeling. Good to see your comments which I hope 
others add to.
robert


 
5150 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 4:14pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Can samatha uproot kilesa? (was Vajrayana)

 
  Erik

Thanks for going to the trouble of giving this detail.
 I would be happy to make some comments.

A general observation first.  I am not sure how
'close' to the Tibetan suttas, commentaries and
abhidhamma the writing of Master Shantideva is.  Does
he cite textual references for his statements?  I
would also be interested to know in approximately what
era he is writing.  I accept, however, for the purpose
of this discussion that he represents the Tibetan
position or at least one school of it.

Some of the references in the quoted passage are
puzzling to a Theravadin. (I leave aside for the
moment the statement that vipassana cannot be
developed without samatha -- this is the subject of
much debate in the Theravadin tradition also).  I am
wondering if you could clarify them for me.

(1)  "The afflictive emotions are overcome through
special insight thoroughly endowed with calm abiding",
and 
"The wisdom that penetrates the mode of being is
conjoined with an unfluctuating calm abiding"

Does 'calm abiding' here refer to moments of samatha
and, if so, when does the samatha occur in relation to
the citta that is moment of insight (vipassana)?  In
the Theravadin tradition, samatha bhavana and
vipassana bhavana are separate and distinct forms of
kusala, so the concept of vipassana 'endowed with' or
'conjoined with' samatha at the moment of eradication
of defilements is not found.  If on the other hand it
is a reference to a series of cittas, the samatha
preceding the arising of vipassana or something like
that, then this presents a somewhat different picture,
and I would be interested to know the proximity of the
2 and the textual basis for it.

(2)  "One achieves samatha, included within an actual
first jhana that directly realizes the Four Noble
Truths" and 
"Calm abiding being a consciousness directly realizing
emptiness and the four truths"

The apparent departures here are -
(a)  In the Theravadin tradition, only a moment of
vipassana can realize one of the lakkhana
(characteristics) of reality or the four noble truths
(which are of course truths about realities, not
concepts).  Such truths cannot be realized at a moment
of samatha.
(b) In the Theravadin tradition, jhana refers to
cittas which are one-pointed in an object to the point
of absorption, and is an attainment resulting from the
development of samatha to an extremely high degree. 
To talk about 'samatha included within a first jhana'
seems to imply a different relationship between the 2
terms.

(3)  "A special insight directly realizing emptiness
and the four truths and included within a preparation
for the first jhana".

Since samatha and vipassana are different in function,
objective and result, the realization of a
characteristic of reality cannot be the outcome of the
development of samatha (I am assuming here that
'preparation for the first jhana' is a reference to
samatha bhavana).

Erik, these are my comments from the perspective of
the Tipitaka.  I hope I have managed to make my
queries clear.

Jon

--- Erik wrote: > 
. . .
> No problemo. Without reference to any texts I can
> say that I can't 
> imagine the jhanas without very bright, stable
> samatha being present.
> 
> Using the texts as references, it is said that one
> must first have 
> samatha before vipassana, that without samatha no
> vipassana.
> 
> Master Shantideva (author of the important "Guide to
> the Bodhisatva's 
> Way of Life," which is a core text in the Tibetan
> curriculum, notes:
> 
> "Having understood that the afflictive emotions 
> Are overcome through special insight,
> Thoroughly endowed with calm abiding,
> One should first seek calm abiding.
> 
> "Commentary: Without samatha, the mere thorough
> analysis of phenomena 
> is not capable of overcoming afflictive emotions. To
> cut something 
> with a knife, we need a steady hand; without it we
> cannot cut 
> anything well. Similarly, although the main cause of
> overcoming 
> afflictive emotions is panna, the mere factor of
> panna without the 
> factor of stability--calm abiding--cannot overcome
> afflictive 
> emotions. For example, to chop a piece of wood we
> cannot chop here 
> and there; we have to keep chopping in the same
> place. Similarly, it 
> is not suitable to analyze a little here and there;
> we need the 
> factor of stability. If we analyze within a very
> firm factor of 
> stability, we will be able to overcome the
> afflictive emotions. If 
> the wisdom that penetrates the mode of being is
> conjoined with an 
> unfluctuating calm abiding, that sharp weapon of the
> wisdom of the 
> Middle Way free from the two extremes can destroy
> every wrong 
> conception. Therefore, we should initially seek calm
> abiding.)
> 
> "First debate:
> 
> "Objection: That without the attainment of samatha
> there is no 
> attainment of vipassana contradicts Asanga's
> statement in 
> the "Compendium of Manifest Knowledge":
> 
> "Some have attained special insight but have not
> attained calm 
> abiding; in dependence on special insight they make
> effort at calm 
> abiding." (author's commentary: if this statement is
> taken literally, 
> then it indeed contradicts our system. It needs to
> be interpreted).
> 
> "Answer: it is not contradictory because the thought
> of this passage 
> is that, in dependence upon special insight which
> directly realizes 
> the four truths and is included within the
> preparations for the first 
> jhana, one achieves samatha, included within an
> actual first jhana 
> that directly realizes the Four Noble Truths.
> 
> "Commentary: Although in general we must achieve
> calm abiding forst 
> and then achieve special insight, there are cases of
> achieving a type 
> of special insight first and then a type of calm
> abiding. For 
> example, there is a calm abiding, included within
> the Path of Seeing 
> (Note: same as sotapatti) that is an effect of a
> special insight at 
> the time of the Path of Preparation (note:: which
> refers to the stage 
> directly preceding sotapatti where the higher levels
> of lokiya 
> vipassana-nana arise, such as "subtle impermanence"
> of seeing dhammas 
> passing away, and frightfulness, etc).
> 
> "Preparations and actual concentrations are
> necessary in a 
> relationship of cause and effect. The preparations
> for the first 
> jhana must precede the actual first jhana. What is
> being referred to 
> here is a special insight directly realizing
> emptiness and the four 
> truths and included within a preparation for the
> first jhana. If that 
> special insight serves as the cause, then the effect
> could be calm 
> abiding included within an actual first jhana, that
> calm abiding 
> being a consciousness directly realizing emptiness
> and the four 
> truths."
> 
> Jonothan, there is more to this which I can post if
> you're interested 
> in diving deeper. This should provide some grist for
> debate if there 
> is any dispute on any of these points, because this
> is as close to 
> definitive as it gets in terms of my own school's
> presentation of 
> same.
> 
> Comments from the perspective of the Tripitaka?



 
5151 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Metaphorical v. literal (was 'Vajrayana')

 
  Howard

>        I think your position here is quite balanced,
> though listing slightly 
> away from the metaphorical side. 

Many would think that 'slightly' was putting it
mildly, I'm sure!

I think that both
> forms of language are 
> important, and I think that there can be benefits
> and dangers to be found in 
> each. The benefit in precise and literal language is
> its objectivity and its 
> appeal to the intellect. Its danger is in its
> potential for dryness and 
> sterility, appealing only to the intellect. A danger
> in metaphorical/poetic 
> language is, as you rightly point out, its
> non-objectivity and openness to 
> misinterpretation. A benefit that can be found in it
> is its ability to appeal 
> directly  to the heart and to direct, wordless
> intuition, bypassing concept 
> and intellect. My position is also basically
> balanced, though I tend to list 
> somewhat towards the metaphorical. The Buddha used
> both types of language in 
> the suttas.The examples of literal speech are more
> than plentiful, but so are 
> examples of the use of metaphor, such as in talking
> about "crossing the 
> flood", attaining "the far shore", and so on and so
> forth. As I see it, 
> whatever speech is used - so long as it is true,
> useful to be spoken, and 
> appropriate in time and context, is for the good. 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Thanks for this useful summary.  Reading what you have
said, though, I would have no hesitation in judging
the dangers of metaphorical language to be the greater
of the two; but that is no doubt just a reflection of
my own bias.

I do however see a significant difference between the
Buddha's use of poetic/metaphorical language and ours.
 The Buddha knew perfectly of what he spoke, and the
level of understanding of his audience was so much
higher than is ours today.  There was literally no
room for misinterpretation.

I am sure that metaphorical language has a role. 
However, when it comes to trying to understand the
differences between, say, samatha and vipassana or
viriya and jivitindriya, literalness and precision are
very useful.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Does anyone know of any sutta references that bear on
this question?

Jon



 
5152 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: Compliment to Herman and Robert

 
  Dear Fellow Buddhist Herman and Robert

Herman, please permit me to compliment you on "The Most" 
Inspiring "Original" Post I have ever read  (Post No 5147 � Laundry) 
You Sir have the ability to see through walls, and eventually all 
dimensions (spheres), I am sure.

Robert please permit me to also compliment you on "The Most" 
inspiring "Thread" Post I have ever read (Post No 5149 � Laundry) You 
Sir have the ability to absorb and emit words directly from within 
you. This Noble ability is a rare achievement in anyone's lifetime.

As these two gentleman have so eloquently expounded, this is the 
reason alone that constricts our ability to speak our mind(truth), so 
we end up behaving like hypocrites to  ourselves and the Dhamma which 
we profess to claim to follow so earnestly. 

I Sir, have the rare privilege of being able to compliment anyone I 
so wish, and to reproach anyone I so chose, as I do not have this 
obligation of close bonds of friendship, which most of you have. 
Though this may be desirable to almost all of you, it is to me a 
hindrance. Lord Buddha put it "Rahula/fetter". For me friendship is a 
fetter. Acquaintanceship is not a fetter. As such I only have an 
obligation to be honest and true only.

Incidentally, Herman with reference to your (Post No 5144) I would 
like to say that at No time did I say I hated Jains, just because I 
didn't say I loved Jains, doesn't mean I hate them. Herman I am not 
implying this to you but this was a general presumption by most. Our 
untrained mind forms preconceived ideas of what it thinks is true. 
(simple terms-most of us have one track minds). I only asked the 
Jains to stay away from Buddhist websites, as there was no legitimate 
reason for them to be there in the first place, unless they wanted to 
find out more about Buddhism and convert. This was not the reason 
though, because they went around to many other Buddhist web sites to 
get Buddhists over to them. I wanted them to stop their Cyber 
campaign, which they finally did because  I hounded them around Cyber 
land, curtailing all their plans. Some of you are blind and unaware 
of the world outside DSG. 

Concerning my validity in the preservation of Lord Buddha's Dhamma, I 
am answerable only to the Dhamma's influencing values in me, and 
certainly not to any preconceived notions of Dhamma, 
you "enlightened" fellow Buddhists concoct and perceive on a daily 
basis, please refer ( para 3) applies.This was originally meant as a 
complimentary Post, but I could not pass the chance to take a swipe 
at every one else on their "strange" practices.

With Utmost Respect Always
BUDDHA DHAMMA SANGHA
Marlon McCall


------------------------------------------------
Post No 5147
From:   <Herman>
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 8:21pm
Subject: Laundry

((The things that other people say and do, how they 
expose the little veils of protection we carry around to help us 
avoid the reality that we all share))

((They are there, and an acknowledgement 
that this is what is happening right now is a good response, I 
reckon.))

((To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with our laundry being 
aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection of a current state 
of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait, edit , revise, till 
we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and discuss it privately 
with someone we feel comfortable with in our laundry, not really 
knowing whether it is clean or dirty?))

With lovingkindness
Herman
------------------------------------------------
Post No 5149
From:   
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 11:52pm
Subject: Re: Laundry

((We are writing on a forum where kindness, 
rightview, compassion, patience and other wholesome qualities are 
revered. This tends to modify our writing so that it conforms to some 
degree with these beneficial characteristics - even if often our 
innermost motives are tainted.
Sometimes it is the right time to be very direct in a reply, while 
other times more subtlety helps one to listen better, I think. 
I find writing on this list affects my speech and thinking also in 
other arenas. It becomes a little more clear whenever I'm tempted 
into harsh speech or speech about trivial matters.))

Robert

---------------------------------------
Post No 5144
From:   <Herman>
Date: Sat May 5, 2001 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Whats in a Name

Are you the same Marlon who is not very fond of Jains?
(Serious question)If you understand the huge diversity of "heresies" 
that have arisen over time, and you understand the political and 
social nature of the seedbed in which these teachings were born, why 
the special attachment to the loathing of Jains, whatever they may 
be. Surely there are different views within the Jain community as 
well? I am not being critical of you , I wish to understand.

Kind Regards
Herman

 
5153 From: robert 
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Re: Compliment to Herman and Robert

 
  Dear Marlon,
Thanks for your kind words. Perhaps we can persuade you to prolong 
your stay on dsg.
best wishes
robert

Marlon McCall wrote:
> 
> Dear Fellow Buddhist Herman and Robert
> 
> Herman, please permit me to compliment you on "The Most" 
> Inspiring "Original" Post I have ever read  (Post No 5147 � 
Laundry) 
> You Sir have the ability to see through walls, and eventually all 
> dimensions (spheres), I am sure.
>

 
5154 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 6:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha

 
  Dear Wyn & Rob,

I agree that this is a very interesting topic and I am
somewhat perplexed by the Netthi passage below. I'm
really thinking out loud, rather than suggesting I
have all the answers here (or any of them!). I
aplogise in advance for what is likely to be a rather
lengthy post.

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear Wyn,
> Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for
> kusala and
> thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for
> pretty well
> everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the
> operative word)
> preferable to have tanha towards things related to
> Dhamma
> because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For
> instance, I
> am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or
> Thailand to
> listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with
> tanha ( some is
> conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and
> this
> conditions some detachment and understanding(no
> tanha at those
> moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for
> wisdom.

I'm not at all sure we can say that tanha for dhamma
is  possibly preferable to tanha for other
objects..;-)
Reminds me of a discussion in Bkk last week when one
of  jon's former colleagues was saying that she knows
there is tanha when she is meditating but she feels
that tanha to the peace and quiet and dhamma at that
time is better than tanha to sensuous objects now....I
would just suggest tanha is tanha, of whatever degree,
irrespective of the object and never conducive to
well-being...interesting and good for further
discussion, though.

> --- wynn  wrote:
> > Is all tanha unskilful?

I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest
it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of
craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and
Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any
suggestion to the contrary.

One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that
tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala:
'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the
Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as
condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion,
gladness and equanimity.  Owing to the fulfilment of
the meditative development he is reborn in the
Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) 

Still, the tanha is akusala.

Another misunderstanding could be because as we know,
unless one has become an arahant, the anusaya (latent
tendency) of tanha is present even at moments of
kusala.  
> > 
> > Someone wrote:
> > 
> > "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature,
> but if one
> > looks at
> > bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one
> cannot but
> > involve
> > oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is
> understood in an
> > essentially pejorative sense.  For example, if
> bhava-ta.nhaa
> > is
> > essentially akusala, then making merit for a
> better rebirth
> > would be
> > essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist
> spiritual
> > life begin!"

I would agree that at moments of bhava-ta.nhaa, the
citta is akusala. There are bound to be so many
skilful and unskilful cittas involved that only the
development of awareness will be aware of which are
which. There can still be moments of generosity or
reflection on wholesome qualities or metta at these
times which are kusala.
> > 
> > In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons
> ta.nhaa by
> > means of
> > ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati;
> A.ii.146]

I think (and I'm no Pali scholar) that this can be
translated as 'though dependent on craving, he
abandons craving'.

It is clear to me, in the following (PTS translation,
same ref.), that it is wisdom and not craving that
abandons:

'Sister, as to the saying: "This body has come into
being through craving, is dependent on craving; 
craving must be abandoned,"- it was said in this
connexion.

Herein, sister, a monk hears it said: "They say that
such and such a monk, by destroying the asavas,
himself in this very life thoroughly comprehending it,
realizes the heart's release, the release by wisdom,
that is free from the asavas, and having attained it
abides therein." then some time later, though
dependent on craving, he abandons craving.  As to the
saying, sister, that body has come into being through
craving, is dependent on craving, craving must be
abandoned, - whatever was said thus was said in this
connexion.'
> > 
> > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have:
> > 
> > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala]
> and
> > unskilful
> > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara,
> skilful
> > ta.nhaa is for
> > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of
> samsaric
> > activities].' [87]

Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following
other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and
describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think
that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha
is for abandoning by skilful states.

Jim mentioned to me that in the Sangiti Sutta (DN
XXX111) there is mentioned a 'nirodha-ta.nhaa' which
at first he thought was kusala "but the commentary (in
Pali) implies a definite 'no' by connecting it with
'uccheda-di.t.thi'."

The point I suppose I'm trying to make is that
sometimes we can read a few lines in the Tipitaka
which don't seem to 'fit', but often there is a
problem with the translation or lack of commentary
notes. I could be wrong here!

Wyn, I appreciate this area for consideration. I
haven't had a chance to follow your other link so far,
but will do so when I have time. Pls let us know what
you think.

Best rgds,
Sarah



 
5155 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 10:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah)

 
  Dear Sarah and Jim,
The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I
checked the pali and the English translation looks right. 
There are other examples scattered throughout the texts:
A'nguttara Nikaaya : 'he abandons
ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa'
And the commentary says "Based on the present craving [ta.nhaa]
(i. e., desire for
becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was the
root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth. Now
(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship)
is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? � It is
unwholesome. � Should it be pursued or not? � It SHOULD be
pursued [sevitabbaa]. � Does it drag one into rebirth
[pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? � It does not drag one into
rebirth." end quote


Nina wrote to me about Ang II,146, 

 <The question why not I> is
 only thinking, paravitakka. I will not try to translate here,
it is better if a Pali expert continues a little more, what the
bhikkhuni is thinking. There is also a paralel: though dependent
on food he abnadons food, this body (mental body) is dependent
on pride, pride must be abandoned... "

And she also said: "sevitabba," this can also be translated as
<this can 
be
pursued>, not necessarily an imperative, it must be pursued, ask
Jim. 
The
monk is ripe for arahataship, and it is natural that there is
such a thought of, O, that I may attain it.
In the K. IV, 231, One hundred and eight, feelings are
classified and among the thirty-six there are feelings connected
with worldly life and feelings connected with nekkhamma, giving
up, even akusala feelings[thus even these akusala feelings are
related to nekkhamma].endquote

Anything you can give us on the commentary would be much
appreciated Jim.

We know that the vital conditions for the path
are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying
it.
Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the
moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. 
robert



--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Wyn & Rob,
> 
> I agree that this is a very interesting topic and I am
> somewhat perplexed by the Netthi passage below. I'm
> really thinking out loud, rather than suggesting I
> have all the answers here (or any of them!). I
> aplogise in advance for what is likely to be a rather
> lengthy post.
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote: > Dear Wyn,
> > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for
> > kusala and
> > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for
> > pretty well
> > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the
> > operative word)
> > preferable to have tanha towards things related to
> > Dhamma
> > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For
> > instance, I
> > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or
> > Thailand to
> > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with
> > tanha ( some is
> > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and
> > this
> > conditions some detachment and understanding(no
> > tanha at those
> > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for
> > wisdom.
> 
> I'm not at all sure we can say that tanha for dhamma
> is  possibly preferable to tanha for other
> objects..;-)
> Reminds me of a discussion in Bkk last week when one
> of  jon's former colleagues was saying that she knows
> there is tanha when she is meditating but she feels
> that tanha to the peace and quiet and dhamma at that
> time is better than tanha to sensuous objects now....I
> would just suggest tanha is tanha, of whatever degree,
> irrespective of the object and never conducive to
> well-being...interesting and good for further
> discussion, though.
> 
> > --- wynn  wrote:
> > > Is all tanha unskilful?
> 
> I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest
> it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of
> craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and
> Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any
> suggestion to the contrary.
> 
> One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that
> tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala:
> 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the
> Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as
> condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion,
> gladness and equanimity.  Owing to the fulfilment of
> the meditative development he is reborn in the
> Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) 
> 
> Still, the tanha is akusala.
> 
> Another misunderstanding could be because as we know,
> unless one has become an arahant, the anusaya (latent
> tendency) of tanha is present even at moments of
> kusala.  
> > > 
> > > Someone wrote:
> > > 
> > > "Tannhaa gets a bad press in Buddhist literature,
> > but if one
> > > looks at
> > > bhava-ta.nhaa, one of the three ta.nhaas, then one
> > cannot but
> > > involve
> > > oneself in contradiction if bhava-ta.nhaa is
> > understood in an
> > > essentially pejorative sense.  For example, if
> > bhava-ta.nhaa
> > > is
> > > essentially akusala, then making merit for a
> > better rebirth
> > > would be
> > > essentially akusala. And where would the Buddhist
> > spiritual
> > > life begin!"
> 
> I would agree that at moments of bhava-ta.nhaa, the
> citta is akusala. There are bound to be so many
> skilful and unskilful cittas involved that only the
> development of awareness will be aware of which are
> which. There can still be moments of generosity or
> reflection on wholesome qualities or metta at these
> times which are kusala.
> > > 
> > > In the suttas we do have the phrase 'he abandons
> > ta.nhaa by
> > > means of
> > > ta.nhaa' [ta.nhaa nissaaya ta.nhaa.m pajahati;
> > A.ii.146]
> 
> I think (and I'm no Pali scholar) that this can be
> translated as 'though dependent on craving, he
> abandons craving'.
> 
> It is clear to me, in the following (PTS translation,
> same ref.), that it is wisdom and not craving that
> abandons:
> 
> 'Sister, as to the saying: "This body has come into
> being through craving, is dependent on craving; 
> craving must be abandoned,"- it was said in this
> connexion.
> 
> Herein, sister, a monk hears it said: "They say that
> such and such a monk, by destroying the asavas,
> himself in this very life thoroughly comprehending it,
> realizes the heart's release, the release by wisdom,
> that is free from the asavas, and having attained it
> abides therein." then some time later, though
> dependent on craving, he abandons craving.  As to the
> saying, sister, that body has come into being through
> craving, is dependent on craving, craving must be
> abandoned, - whatever was said thus was said in this
> connexion.'
> > > 
> > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have:
> > > 
> > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala]
> > and
> > > unskilful
> > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara,
> > skilful
> > > ta.nhaa is for
> > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of
> > samsaric
> > > activities].' [87]
> 
> Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following
> other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and
> describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think
> that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha
> is for abandoning by skilful states.
> 
> Jim mentioned to me that in the Sangiti Sutta (DN
> XXX111) there is mentioned a 'nirodha-ta.nhaa' which
> at first he thought was kusala "but the commentary (in
> Pali) implies a definite 'no' by connecting it with
> 'uccheda-di.t.thi'."
> 
> The point I suppose I'm trying to make is that
> sometimes we can read a few lines in the Tipitaka
> which don't seem to 'fit', but often there is a
> problem with the translation or lack of commentary
> notes. I could be wrong here!
> 
> Wyn, I appreciate this area for consideration. I
> haven't had a chance to follow your other link so far,
> but will do so when I have time. Pls let us know what
> you think.
> 
> Best rgds,
> Sarah


 
5156 From: Erik 
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 10:38pm
Subject: Samatha and Vipassana

 
  Jonothan, this is a GREAT debate! This is some great stuff, and I 
once again thank you for providing really useful grist for debate.

Jonothan: A general observation first.  I am not sure how 'close' to 
the Tibetan suttas, commentaries and abhidhamma the writing of Master 
Shantideva is.  Does he cite textual references for his statements?  
I would also be interested to know in approximately what era he is 
writing.  I accept, however, for the purpose of this discussion that 
he represents the Tibetan position or at least one school of it."

Erik: Master Shantideva is one of the most oft-quoted panditas in the 
Tibetan tradition. He lived from 695-743 AD. His key work "A Guide to 
the Bodhisattva's Way of Life" (Bodhicaryavatara) is a profound 
treatise on developing the qualities of metta, karuna, mudita, 
upekkha, as well as patience and Right View.

Jonothan: In the Theravadin tradition, samatha bhavana and vipassana 
bhavana are separate and distinct forms of kusala, so the concept of 
vipassana 'endowed with' or 'conjoined with' samatha at the moment of 
eradication of defilements is not found.

Erik: I beg to differ. So, it appears, do the Suttas:

Yuganaddha Sutta

"Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the 
attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of 
one or another of four paths. Which four? 
"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by 
tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the 
path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he 
follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity 
preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, 
the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As 
he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in 
tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with 
insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues 
it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness 
concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under 
control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, 
settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is 
born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows 
the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, 
his latent tendencies abolished. 

"Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in 
my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four 
paths." 

This provides support for sukkhavipassaka meditation, in the same way 
the revered Indian commentator Master Asanga gives sukkhavipassaka 
practice wiggle-room in the "debate" on this in my previous post. 
Asanga also noted that there can be samatha arising after an instant 
of insight. But nowhere is there any support for vipassana alone 
leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right 
questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly right 
here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the suttas, 
because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that the 
Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha, given 
they are always treated as a conjoined pair.

Also, Jonothan, why are they listed as the "yuganaddha" in the 
Dammasangani if they can be separated? There is no monad 
of "vipassana" or "samatha" there, but the "joined pair." To me this 
leaves little doubt the two together are necessary. Going by the 
Yuganaddha Sutta, it appears that samatha can act as a prenascent, 
conascent, mutuality condition for vipassana. It also appears that 
vipassana can act as a prenascent and mutuality condition for 
samatha. But for the arising of lokuttara-panna, it appears they are 
mutuality conditions. Indeed even the title of the Sutta suggests 
that at some point these two come together when all the path factors 
are fully developed, and that the two together are mutuality 
conditions for lokuttara panna. 

There are some more passages from the Suttas:

Kimsuka Sutta
"I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message 
is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four 
elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley 
gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling 
apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The 
gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers 
stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The 
commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central 
square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the 
liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate 
report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had 
come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, 
right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right 
mindfulness, right concentration." 

***

Akankha Sutta

"If a monk would wish, 'May I -- with the ending of mental 
fermentations -- remain in the fermentation-free release of awareness 
& release of discernment, having directly known & realized them for 
myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the 
precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, WHO DOES NOT 
NEGLECT JHANA, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty 
dwellings."

Jonothan, again, this sutta makes it quite explicit that there is no 
avoiding jhana in the practice of insight. This means that any 
practice of insight not involving the jhanas will never yield the 
fruits of the Noble Eightfoled Path. Lord Buddha is not saying "who 
can skip jhana if they don't feel they have the capacity for it." 
Lord Buddha is very clearly saying jhana is indispensible. Are there 
any compelling counterarguments on this point you can present from 
the Suttas? Going by how explicit the Suttas are on this I'm going to 
need so very serious convincing to see exactly how the sort of 
meditation practice you suggest can bring about release--if you are 
indeed suggesting one can attain lokuttara-nana without samatha.

This is quite obviously a life-or-death point, not something to be 
even the slightest bit wrong about, because it means the difference 
between liberation and ceaseless rounds in cyclic existence. There is 
a Zen saying: "to miss by as much as a hair is to miss by the 
distance of Heaven and Earth." But forget Zen, because the Buddha is 
explicitly saying this right in the Sutta Pitaka, the teachings every 
practicing Buddhist, Theravadin, Zen, and Tibetan, accepts as 
canonical!

The Samadhi Sutta adds:

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena 
through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of 
awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal 
tranquillity of awareness...and ask him, 'How should the mind be 
steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be 
unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in 
line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be 
steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this 
way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be 
concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become 
one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & 
insight into phenomena through heightened discernment."

Jonothan: The apparent departures here are - (a)  In the Theravadin 
tradition, only a moment of vipassana can realize one of the lakkhana 
(characteristics) of reality or the four noble truths (which are of 
course truths about realities, not concepts).  Such truths cannot be 
realized at a moment of samatha.

Erik: There is no contradiction. Nowhere does what I quoted suggest 
that anything other than vipassana can bring about direct insight 
into the characteristics of dhammas. I thought this was clear to the 
point of leaving no ambiguity.

Jonothan: (b) In the Theravadin tradition, jhana refers to cittas 
which are one-pointed in an object to the point of absorption, and is 
an attainment resulting from the development of samatha to an 
extremely high degree.  To talk about 'samatha included within a 
first jhana' seems to imply a different relationship between the 2 
terms.

Erik: Samatha is either a prenascent or mutuality condition for 
attaining the jhanas, so there is no contradiction. One cannot speak 
of jhana apart from samatha.

Jonothan: Since samatha and vipassana are different in function, 
objective and result, the realization of a characteristic of reality 
cannot be the outcome of the development of samatha (I am assuming 
here that 'preparation for the first jhana' is a reference to samatha 
bhavana).

Erik: No disagreement. The development of samatha ALONE cannot 
overcome afflictions. Likewise, the development if vipassana ALONE 
cannot overcome afflictions if one merely reads what tLord Buddha 
said in the Suttas. When the two are brought together--as a 
yuganaddha--then this creates the conditions for lokuttara panna. 
There can be no lokuttara panna without the union of these two, 
according again to the Suttas.

Erik: So it seems the upshot of this debate to me is that if you 
assert one can come to lokuttara panna through vipassana alone then 
there is no support in the Suttas. Again, this is obviously one of 
THE life-or-death issues regarding samma samadhi and the development 
of all the relevant path-factors necessary for lokuttara panna. It 
would seem to me that now the shoe is on the other foot. Meaning, 
that I believe I have clearly demonstrated, using the sources we both 
accept as canonical, that there is no vipassana withouth samatha, 
that the system of meditation I've been trained in more cloesely 
represents the actual teachings of the Buddha found in the Sutta 
Pitaka, whereas what I'm interpreting from your statements finds no 
basis at all in the Suttas: "In the Theravadin tradition, samatha 
bhavana and vipassana bhavana are separate and distinct forms of 
kusala, so the concept of vipassana 'endowed with' or 'conjoined 
with' samatha at the moment of eradication of defilements is not 
found."

You say you there is no support in the Suttas, yet the passages I 
quoted directly contradict this and in fact support my contention 
explicitly. Is there anything in the Suttas you can find that might 
change how these Suttas are interpreted, such that they will agree 
with your assertion rather than mine or the teachings of Master 
Shantideva or Asanga?

I look forward to your spirited defense of your tradition! :) :) :)

 
 
5157 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 10:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana

 
  Dear Erik,
You write:
--- Erik wrote:
> 
nowhere is there any support for vipassana
> alone 
> leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right 
> questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly
> right 
> here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the
> suttas, 
> because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that
> the 
> Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha,
> given 
> they are always treated as a conjoined pair.
> 
> ______________________
Venerable gunaratana (sri lanka ) writes:

>>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of
attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between
the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in
one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for
insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779). Textual evidence that there can
be arahats lacking mundane jhana is provided by the Susima Sutta
(S.ii, 199-23) together with is commentaries. When the monks in
the sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing
supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they reply:
"We are liberated by wisdom" (pannavimutta kho mayam). The
commentary glosses this reply thus: "We are contemplatives,
dry-insight meditators, liberated by wisdom alone" (Mayam
nijjhanaka sukkhavipassaka pannamatten'eva vimutta ti,
SA.ii,117). The commentary also states that the Buddha gave his
long disquisition on insight in the sutta "to show the arising
of knowledge even without concentration" (vina pi samadhimevam
nanuppattidassanattham, SA.ii,117). The subcommentary
establishes the point by explaining "even without concentration"
to mean "even without concentration previously accomplished
reaching the mark of serenity" (samathalakkhanappattam
purimasiddhamvina pi samadhin ti), adding that this is said in
reference to one who makes insight his vehicle (ST.ii,125).
>>>>endquote

While the texts are clear that there is always concentration as
a path factor they also make it clear that in the case of the
sukkhavipassaka this can be khanika samadhi- momentary samadhi.
The objects for this type of concentration are the five khandas,
the ayatanas and the elements; not the 40 objects leading to
normal samatha. At the path moment a special jhana equal in
strength to first jhana is attained.
robert





 
5158 From: Howard 
Date: Sun May 6, 2001 7:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Metaphorical v. literal (was 'Vajrayana')

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/6/01 4:40:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> I do however see a significant difference between the
> Buddha's use of poetic/metaphorical language and ours.
> The Buddha knew perfectly of what he spoke, and the
> level of understanding of his audience was so much
> higher than is ours today.  There was literally no
> room for misinterpretation.
> 
> I am sure that metaphorical language has a role. 
> However, when it comes to trying to understand the
> differences between, say, samatha and vipassana or
> viriya and jivitindriya, literalness and precision are
> very useful.
> 
============================
       Definitely. However, just as there was a different audience for the 
Buddha's metaphors at his time, so is it true for the trechnical language of 
Abhidhamma. For most readers of Abhidhamma, what is seen is only ungrounded 
concept put forth with highly technical language. For such a modern, 
relatively unpracticed and limited audience, a bit of metaphor and poetry can 
be enlivening and enlightening - at least that is how I see it.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5159 From: Erik 
Date: Mon May 7, 2001 0:03am
Subject: Re: Samatha and Vipassana

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> You write:
> --- Erik wrote:
> > 
> nowhere is there any support for vipassana
> > alone 
> > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right 
> > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly
> > right 
> > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the
> > suttas, 
> > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that
> > the 
> > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha,
> > given 
> > they are always treated as a conjoined pair.
> > 
> > ______________________
> Venerable gunaratana (sri lanka ) writes:
> 
> >>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of
> attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between
> the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in
> one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for
> insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779).

Robert, thanks for the quotes. And I just want to be clear nothing in 
my post was denying this. In fact, I even included the Tibetan 
interpretation that allows for samatha to arise AFTER insight (but 
also conjoined, since insight in this case is a prenascent condition 
if one goes by the Sutta). What the Visuddhimagga notes is the same 
as what MAster Asanga notes, namely, that samatha can arise after 
insight. However, the one point I return to is that even with this 
momentary jhana (khanika samadhi) that samatha is at least a 
mutuality condition when all the path-factors are fully developed.

> While the texts are clear that there is always concentration as
> a path factor they also make it clear that in the case of the
> sukkhavipassaka this can be khanika samadhi- momentary samadhi.
> The objects for this type of concentration are the five khandas,
> the ayatanas and the elements; not the 40 objects leading to
> normal samatha. At the path moment a special jhana equal in
> strength to first jhana is attained.

I am not in disagreement with this. What I am in disagreement with is 
the idea that vipassana alone, without samatha as a component either 
before or immediately after insight, brings about magga-nana. 

The Suttas insdicate that vipassana and samatha have to be conjoined 
for both vipassana-yanikas and samatha-yanikas--whether or not 
vipassana serves as the prenascent and support condition for 
vipassana or vipassana serves as a prenascent and support condition 
for samatha, still, both are concomitants when all the path-factors 
are developed to the point of the arising of lokuttara panna. In sum 
what I see is that the joined pair of samatha & vipassana are the 
proximate and decisive support conditions for lokuttara panna.

 
5160 From: Dan 
Date: Mon May 7, 2001 5:22am
Subject: paticca-samuppada [Erik]

 
  From Narada's "Manual of Abhidhamma":

"According to paticca-samuppada, too, contact conditions feeling. But 
strictly speaking, there is no reason for the sequence because all 
these mental states are coexistent. The Atthasalini states--'For of 
states, arisen in one conscious moment, it is not valid to say 
that "this" arises first, "that" afterwards. The reason is not 
because contact is a strong support. Contact is just mentioned first 
in the order of teaching, but it was also permissable to bring it in 
thus:--There are feeling and contact, perception and contact, 
volition and contact,; ther are consciousness and contacct, feeling, 
perception, volition, inital application of mind. In the first order 
of teaching, however, contact is mentioned first. Nor is the sequence 
of words among the remaining states of any special significance.'"

 
5161 From: selamat   
Date: Mon May 7, 2001 6:52pm
Subject: Visakha puja

 
  Dear All,
Visakha Puja Greetings,
May you ever grow in the Dhamma.

with metta,
selamat rodjali
dhamma study group bogor

 
5162 From: Erik 
Date: Mon May 7, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Re: paticca-samuppada [Erik]

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> From Narada's "Manual of Abhidhamma":

Thanks, Dan. I had actually looked at the conditionality 
relationships in the Visuddhimagga for paticca samuppada and didn't 
get this from my reading, but this is, as you say, a deep topic.

 
5163 From: robert 
Date: Mon May 7, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Re: Visakha puja

 
  --- "selamat"  wrote:
> Dear All,
> Visakha Puja Greetings,
> May you ever grow in the Dhamma.
> 
> with metta,
> selamat rodjali
> dhamma study group bogor

Thank you Selamat and kindest regards to Dhamma study Group in 
Indonesia.
robert

 
5164 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon May 7, 2001 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana

 
  Erik

--- Erik wrote: > 
> Jonothan, this is a GREAT debate! This is some great
> stuff, and I 
> once again thank you for providing really useful
> grist for debate.

I'm glad you're finding it useful, Erik, as I am too.

Before I respond on your sutta quotes, a couple of
points to clarify.

In commenting on the Yuganaddha Sutta you say -

> This provides support for sukkhavipassaka
> meditation . . . But nowhere is there any 
> support for vipassana alone 
> leading to true insight.

First, a small nit to pick.  'Sukkhavipassaka', as I
have seen it used, is not a form of meditation.  It is
a term used to describe one who has attained one of
the stages of enlightenment without first having
attained jhana.  Neither this term nor the term
samatha-yanika ('one who has tranquillity as vehicle')
is intended to import that there is any choice in the
matter.  No-one can know when or in what circumstances
enlightenment can come (nor do I recall any such
suggestion in any of the Thera- or Therigathas).

Now to my main query.  To my understanding, the whole
point of the mention of the sukkhavipassaka in the
texts (although not always by that name, of course) is
to confirm that the path can be attained by the
development of insight (vipassana) alone.

I'm not sure exactly where our point of departure is
here.  Any thoughts?

> Yuganaddha Sutta
> 
> "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun
> -- declares the 
> attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all
> do it by means of 
> one or another of four paths. Which four? 
> "There is the case where a monk has developed
> insight preceded by 
> tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by
> tranquillity, the 
> path is born. He follows that path, develops it,
> pursues it. As he 
> follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his
> fetters are 
> abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 
> 
> "Then there is the case where a monk has developed
> tranquillity 
> preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity
> preceded by insight, 
> the path is born. He follows that path, develops it,
> pursues it. As 
> he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it --
> his fetters are 
> abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 
> 
> "Then there is the case where a monk has developed
> tranquillity in 
> tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in
> tandem with 
> insight, the path is born. He follows that path,
> develops it, pursues 
> it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> it -- his 
> fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies
> abolished.
> 
> "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its
> restlessness 
> concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of
> insight] well under 
> control. There comes a time when his mind grows
> steady inwardly, 
> settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In
> him the path is 
> born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it.
> As he follows 
> the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters
> are abandoned, 
> his latent tendencies abolished. 
> 
> "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment
> of arahantship in 
> my presence, they all do it by means of one or
> another of these four 
> paths." 
> 
> This provides support for sukkhavipassaka
> meditation, in the same way 
> the revered Indian commentator Master Asanga gives
> sukkhavipassaka 
> practice wiggle-room in the "debate" on this in my
> previous post. 
> Asanga also noted that there can be samatha arising
> after an instant 
> of insight. But nowhere is there any support for
> vipassana alone 
> leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking
> the right 
> questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten
> it exatly right 
> here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says
> in the suttas, 
> because what is quite unambiguous in these passages
> is that the 
> Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth
> samatha, given 
> they are always treated as a conjoined pair.

My other query concerns the following passage -

> Also, Jonothan, why are they listed as the
> "yuganaddha" in the 
> Dammasangani if they can be separated? There is no
> monad 
> of "vipassana" or "samatha" there, but the "joined
> pair." To me this 
> leaves little doubt the two together are necessary.
> Going by the 
> Yuganaddha Sutta, it appears that samatha can act as
> a prenascent, 
> conascent, mutuality condition for vipassana. It
> also appears that 
> vipassana can act as a prenascent and mutuality
> condition for 
> samatha. But for the arising of lokuttara-panna, it
> appears they are 
> mutuality conditions. Indeed even the title of the
> Sutta suggests 
> that at some point these two come together when all
> the path factors 
> are fully developed, and that the two together are
> mutuality 
> conditions for lokuttara panna. 

I would be interested to know your understanding of
the 'joined pair'.  Does it, for example, refer to
samatha and vipassana arising together at the same
moment?  Or alternately for a period?  Are you
suggeseting samatha and vipassana cannot be separated?


I have noticed previous references in your posts to
'samatha and vipassana' practice, and am wondering how
it is conceived.  Thanks.

Jon



 
5165 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 3:21am
Subject: Visakha Puja � Amara, and Fellow Buddhists

 
  Visakha Puja � Amara, and Fellow Buddhists

Quote from Phra Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo (1907-1961)
Wat Asokaram on May 24, 1956

""The Buddha is like our father, while the Dhamma is like our mother -
- in that it's what gives birth to our knowledge of the Buddha's 
teachings. At present our father has passed away, leaving only our 
mother still alive. Both of them have been protecting us, looking 
after us, so that we've been able to stay free and happy up to the 
present. We're thus greatly in their debt and should find a way of 
showing our gratitude in keeping with the fact that we are their 
children.
Ordinarily, when people's parents die, they have to cry and lament, 
wear black, etc., as a way of showing their mourning. On Visakha 
Puja -- which is the anniversary of the day on which our father, the 
Buddha, passed away -- we show our mourning too, but we do it in a 
different way. Instead of crying, we chant the passages reflecting on 
the virtues of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Instead of dressing up 
in black, we take off our pretty jewels, go without perfume and 
cologne, and dress very simply. As for the comfortable beds and 
mattresses on which we normally lie, we abstain from them. Instead of 
eating three or four times a day, as we normally like to do, we cut 
back to only two times or one. We have to give up our habitual 
pleasures if we're going to show our mourning for the Buddha -- our 
father -- in a sincere and genuine way. ""
Quote from Phra Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo (1907-1961)
A talk at Wat Asokaram on May 24, 1956

Dear Amara, 
I do hope that this Day will cause you to return to this group. Amara 
I sincerely hope that you would reconsider your decision. Your 
decision Amara, was one made in conditions not conducive for the 
process of decision making, especially when it effects the lives and 
destiny of Buddhists who have reached such a critical level in their 
Dhamma studies. You really have no option but to continue with this 
Dhamma Study Group, it is your Destiny, Duty and your Kamma (karma). 
Should you fail to listen to your inner voice you will be doing great 
harm to your own kamma. 

You will have different views on how I interpret  cause an effects of 
Kamma and almost all events in relation to Dhamma (out of wack ) , 
but both paths lead to ultimate realization, one of approaching 
Dhamma Academically, and the other realization by meditation,. You 
made your path the first way. I made my choice decades ago for the 
latter. I take no offence in your views about my Buddhist practices, 
How could a person of your learning have such ice cold views about a 
fellow Buddhists Meditational approach, I am very puzzled about your 
approach to Buddhism � Please return and explain yourself to this 
group. You owe it to all your Dhamma followers. Stop hiding yourself 
Amara come out and face yourself. I will stay  with this group for 1 
week from today and if I do not here from you I will delist and take 
whatever you have said about Dhamma as rubbish from your lips. Amara 
my friend you have 7 days to reconsider. I beg you return for your 
own good.
Love  Always 
Marlon McCall

Ps.  I am in NY now and it is still Visakha Puja 3pm, will return to 
Singapore on the 12 May, Any Buddhist NYorkers for Coffee e-mail me.

 
5166 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah)

 
  Dear Robert,

While checking several versions of the commentary on A ii 146 I noticed a
possible error in the following translated section:

>Now
>(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship)
>is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? � It is
>unwholesome.

The answer - unwholesome (akusalaa) is supported by the PTS and the
Burmese CSCD versions but not by the Thai Budsir version which has
'kusalaa' as the answer. The footnote in the PTS edition notes that a
Mandalay ms. and the Siamese ed. of 1920 reads 'kusalaa'. This is quite
interesting as it is a discrepancy that can easily go unnoticed. My gut
feeling is that 'kusalaa' is the correct answer. It is contrary to dhamma to
state that the unwholesome is to be pursued (sevitabba) as in the reading of
the PTS ed. (AA iii 136). We also know that 'ta.nhaa' can be either
wholesome or unwholesome from the Nettippakara.na passage (p. 87).

I suppose that most of us had been thinking that 'ta.nhaa' is 'lobha' in the
paramattha terminology but could it be something else -- 'chanda'??

I also glanced through three layers of commentary on the Nettippakara.na
passage regarding  the twofold ta.nhaa which have quite a lot to say about
it. I didn't study them as there is just too much to take in (1 or 2 pages
altogether) without spending a lot of time. This is just to let you know
that the comments are there.

Best wishes,

Jim

>Dear Sarah and Jim,
>The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I
>checked the pali and the English translation looks right.
>There are other examples scattered throughout the texts:
>A'nguttara Nikaaya : 'he abandons
>ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa'
>And the commentary says "Based on the present craving [ta.nhaa]
>(i. e., desire for
>becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was the
>root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth. Now
>(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for Arahantship)
>is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? � It is
>unwholesome. � Should it be pursued or not? � It SHOULD be
>pursued [sevitabbaa]. � Does it drag one into rebirth
>[pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? � It does not drag one into
>rebirth." end quote
>
>
>Nina wrote to me about Ang II,146,
>
> <The question why not I> is
> only thinking, paravitakka. I will not try to translate here,
>it is better if a Pali expert continues a little more, what the
>bhikkhuni is thinking. There is also a paralel: though dependent
>on food he abnadons food, this body (mental body) is dependent
>on pride, pride must be abandoned... "
>
>And she also said: "sevitabba," this can also be translated as
><this can
>be
>pursued>, not necessarily an imperative, it must be pursued, ask
>Jim.
>The
>monk is ripe for arahataship, and it is natural that there is
>such a thought of, O, that I may attain it.
>In the K. IV, 231, One hundred and eight, feelings are
>classified and among the thirty-six there are feelings connected
>with worldly life and feelings connected with nekkhamma, giving
>up, even akusala feelings[thus even these akusala feelings are
>related to nekkhamma].endquote
>
>Anything you can give us on the commentary would be much
>appreciated Jim.
>
>We know that the vital conditions for the path
>are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying
>it.
>Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the
>moments when there is understanding there is not tanha.
>robert

 
5167 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 10:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana

 
  Dear Jonathan,
We must know that in this yuganaddha sutta we have two sukkhavipasaka and two samathayanika.The other sukkhavipsaka is the one who practise jhana and insight until he think he was attaining ariya phala but actually not so-he is doing dhammaupassana which he will finally do it with insight follow by mundane jhana while the other will do citta aupassana.The first is good prove that some sukkhavipassaka will have jhana practice and attainment.
It is a thing that have to do with our parami--craving or viewing types.Samathayanika must emerge from jhana due to he have too much nivarana which will defile his clear vision while sukhavipassaka is lacking in insight --emerge from jhana which have to do with doing insight  on nama will not help.They need to do insight on rupa.
Besides this sukkavipasaka will also mean samathayanika when the com use it to mean sasana later period will not have tevijja,chalabhinna patisambhida monk,some emerge from jhana but have no iddhi will still be consider as sukkhavipassaka.
From Teng Kee


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:15:37 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha and Vipassana


> Erik
> 
> --- Erik wrote: > 
> > Jonothan, this is a GREAT debate! This is some great
> > stuff, and I 
> > once again thank you for providing really useful
> > grist for debate.
> 
> I'm glad you're finding it useful, Erik, as I am too.
> 
> Before I respond on your sutta quotes, a couple of
> points to clarify.
> 
> In commenting on the Yuganaddha Sutta you say -
> 
> > This provides support for sukkhavipassaka
> > meditation . . . But nowhere is there any 
> > support for vipassana alone 
> > leading to true insight.
> 
> First, a small nit to pick.  'Sukkhavipassaka', as I
> have seen it used, is not a form of meditation.  It is
> a term used to describe one who has attained one of
> the stages of enlightenment without first having
> attained jhana.  Neither this term nor the term
> samatha-yanika ('one who has tranquillity as vehicle')
> is intended to import that there is any choice in the
> matter.  No-one can know when or in what circumstances
> enlightenment can come (nor do I recall any such
> suggestion in any of the Thera- or Therigathas).
> 
> Now to my main query.  To my understanding, the whole
> point of the mention of the sukkhavipassaka in the
> texts (although not always by that name, of course) is
> to confirm that the path can be attained by the
> development of insight (vipassana) alone.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly where our point of departure is
> here.  Any thoughts?
> 
> > Yuganaddha Sutta
> > 
> > "Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun
> > -- declares the 
> > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all
> > do it by means of 
> > one or another of four paths. Which four? 
> > "There is the case where a monk has developed
> > insight preceded by 
> > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by
> > tranquillity, the 
> > path is born. He follows that path, develops it,
> > pursues it. As he 
> > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his
> > fetters are 
> > abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 
> > 
> > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed
> > tranquillity 
> > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity
> > preceded by insight, 
> > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it,
> > pursues it. As 
> > he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it --
> > his fetters are 
> > abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 
> > 
> > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed
> > tranquillity in 
> > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in
> > tandem with 
> > insight, the path is born. He follows that path,
> > develops it, pursues 
> > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing
> > it -- his 
> > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies
> > abolished.
> > 
> > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its
> > restlessness 
> > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of
> > insight] well under 
> > control. There comes a time when his mind grows
> > steady inwardly, 
> > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In
> > him the path is 
> > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it.
> > As he follows 
> > the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters
> > are abandoned, 
> > his latent tendencies abolished. 
> > 
> > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment
> > of arahantship in 
> > my presence, they all do it by means of one or
> > another of these four 
> > paths." 
> > 
> > This provides support for sukkhavipassaka
> > meditation, in the same way 
> > the revered Indian commentator Master Asanga gives
> > sukkhavipassaka 
> > practice wiggle-room in the "debate" on this in my
> > previous post. 
> > Asanga also noted that there can be samatha arising
> > after an instant 
> > of insight. But nowhere is there any support for
> > vipassana alone 
> > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking
> > the right 
> > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten
> > it exatly right 
> > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says
> > in the suttas, 
> > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages
> > is that the 
> > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth
> > samatha, given 
> > they are always treated as a conjoined pair.
> 
> My other query concerns the following passage -
> 
> > Also, Jonothan, why are they listed as the
> > "yuganaddha" in the 
> > Dammasangani if they can be separated? There is no
> > monad 
> > of "vipassana" or "samatha" there, but the "joined
> > pair." To me this 
> > leaves little doubt the two together are necessary.
> > Going by the 
> > Yuganaddha Sutta, it appears that samatha can act as
> > a prenascent, 
> > conascent, mutuality condition for vipassana. It
> > also appears that 
> > vipassana can act as a prenascent and mutuality
> > condition for 
> > samatha. But for the arising of lokuttara-panna, it
> > appears they are 
> > mutuality conditions. Indeed even the title of the
> > Sutta suggests 
> > that at some point these two come together when all
> > the path factors 
> > are fully developed, and that the two together are
> > mutuality 
> > conditions for lokuttara panna. 
> 
> I would be interested to know your understanding of
> the 'joined pair'.  Does it, for example, refer to
> samatha and vipassana arising together at the same
> moment?  Or alternately for a period?  Are you
> suggeseting samatha and vipassana cannot be separated?
> 
> 
> I have noticed previous references in your posts to
> 'samatha and vipassana' practice, and am wondering how
> it is conceived.  Thanks.
> 
> Jon
> 

 
5168 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Laundry

 
  Dear Herman & Rob

--- robert wrote: 
> Nice one Herman,--- 
> 
> Herman wrote:
> > 
> > To put it very bluntly , is there a problem with
> our laundry being 
> > aired publicly? If a post is a genuine reflection
> of a current 
> state 
> > of mind, is it OK to send it, or should we wait,
> edit , revise, 
> till 
> > we think it is "kusala", or post off-list and
> discuss it privately 
> > with someone we feel comfortable with in our
> laundry, not really 
> > knowing whether it is clean or dirty?
> 
> I think we do what we do. This being a Dhamma list
> some of it is 
> kusala (wholesome)- possibly more so than in most
> interactions.
> For myself even when I write something that looks
> kusala there is 
> quite often a hint or more of akusala. If it sounds
> good (or I think 
> so) for sure that is mana(conceit). If I want others
> to like it that 
> is clinging. These factors are sometimes stronger if
> I spend time and 
> labour over it than with a quick reply.
> Nevertheless there are outward ways of interacting
> with people. The 
> monks have their vinaya which help to remind them
> also of the cittas 
> that condition behaviour. We are writing on a forum
> where kindness, 
> rightview, compassion, patience and other wholesome
> qualities are 
> revered. This tends to modify our writing so that it
> conforms to some 
> degree with these beneficial characteristics - even
> if often our 
> innermost motives are tainted.
> Sometimes it is the right time to be very direct in
> a reply, while 
> other times more subtlety helps one to listen
> better, I think. 
> I find writing on this list affects my speech and
> thinking also in 
> other arenas. It becomes a little more clear
> whenever I'm tempted 
> into harsh speech or speech about trivial matters.

I agree with Marlon: this was a very helpful response,
Rob.

I don't have much to add. As we know, in 'live'
discussions too, someone can say something which is
meant kindly, but it can be taken badly and vice
versa. 

In my experience different laundries have different
standards and rules. An Australian laundry is run
differently from a Chinese laundry and very
differently from an Indian laundry with regard to
rules, prices, standards, speed and purity (my best
experiences are with the Indian ones ;-))

Like Rob says, there are always different intentions
involved when we speak and it is the job of awareness
to learn to be a little more aware of the differences.
Here we have a wonderful opportunity to learn more
about the state of mind or 'citta' at different
moments, including when we keep quiet.

There are so many good reminders in the texts as to
what constitutes useful speech. For most of us we
'slip' in this regard many times a day, but as Rob has
said, reminders here can encourage a little more care
during the rest of the day. This morning I was about
to share a piece of gossip with a friend at my gym
when there were conditions to reflect on the following
sutta and to show some restraint just in time:

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is
well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless &
unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? 

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in
truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken
beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will. 

"A statement endowed with these five factors is
well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless &
unfaulted by knowledgeable people." 

Anguttara Nikaya V.198
Vaca Sutta
A Statement

Look forward to any other comments,

Sarah 

p.s Herman, I'm just catching up on an earlier post in
which you said (following the Calvinistic background
comments), "I find some of the teachings I encounter
around these parts to be equally deterministic.  In my
view, determinism/fatalism renders the effort required
to breathe futile". I'm not sure if 'these parts'
refers to dsg, but in any case would appreciate it if
you'd elaborate as it may lead to some useful
discussion for us all. Thanks for your useful
contributions ;-))






 
5169 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 11:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha and Vipassana

 
  Dear Erik and Robert,
You are right although you didn't study enough theravada com and sub com.I have to mention first that Ven Gunaratana wrote in that book the he can't understand for sure about sukkhavipasaka which he said samathayanika should be a easier and smoother way ,why there is a sukkahvipasaka etc.In Visuddhimagga --the path arise in a sukkahavipsaka means the mundane jhana will appear after completing those insight(citta auppasana) while the other one who have jhana but didn't use it as a basic is the sukkhavipassaka who do insight on dhamma follow by insight.This is good enough to answer Ven .Gunaratana.In Susima sutta those arahant said they were free by insight alone can be a few meanings-they  maybe those two kinds of sukkhavipassaka -some do insight on citta while some on dhamma which they do have jhana but not reaching any tevijja level etc.But I think they are just the citta anupassana sukkhavipassaka (inferior).
People like Nyanamoli change his mind about sukkahvipassaka when he wrote Kuddakapatha com. translation compare to his earlier work in visuddhimagga.
It is a very broad topic to talk in here,i will do in my translation of text for pts.
Teng Kee
-----Original Message-----
From: Erik
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 16:03:35 -0000
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha and Vipassana


> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > Dear Erik,
> > You write:
> > --- Erik wrote:
> > > 
> > nowhere is there any support for vipassana
> > > alone 
> > > leading to true insight. So, thanks to your asking the right 
> > > questions it confirms that the Tibetans have gotten it exatly
> > > right 
> > > here, just going by what Lord Buddha actually says in the
> > > suttas, 
> > > because what is quite unambiguous in these passages is that
> > > the 
> > > Buddha said the path cannot be actualized withouth samatha,
> > > given 
> > > they are always treated as a conjoined pair.
> > > 
> > > ______________________
> > Venerable gunaratana (sri lanka ) writes:
> > 
> > >>>>the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility [of
> > attaining nibbana by insight alone]when it distinguishes between
> > the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator and the path arisen in
> > one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for
> > insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779).
> 
> Robert, thanks for the quotes. And I just want to be clear nothing in 
> my post was denying this. In fact, I even included the Tibetan 
> interpretation that allows for samatha to arise AFTER insight (but 
> also conjoined, since insight in this case is a prenascent condition 
> if one goes by the Sutta). What the Visuddhimagga notes is the same 
> as what MAster Asanga notes, namely, that samatha can arise after 
> insight. However, the one point I return to is that even with this 
> momentary jhana (khanika samadhi) that samatha is at least a 
> mutuality condition when all the path-factors are fully developed.
> 
> > While the texts are clear that there is always concentration as
> > a path factor they also make it clear that in the case of the
> > sukkhavipassaka this can be khanika samadhi- momentary samadhi.
> > The objects for this type of concentration are the five khandas,
> > the ayatanas and the elements; not the 40 objects leading to
> > normal samatha. At the path moment a special jhana equal in
> > strength to first jhana is attained.
> 
> I am not in disagreement with this. What I am in disagreement with is 
> the idea that vipassana alone, without samatha as a component either 
> before or immediately after insight, brings about magga-nana. 
> 
> The Suttas insdicate that vipassana and samatha have to be conjoined 
> for both vipassana-yanikas and samatha-yanikas--whether or not 
> vipassana serves as the prenascent and support condition for 
> vipassana or vipassana serves as a prenascent and support condition 
> for samatha, still, both are concomitants when all the path-factors 
> are developed to the point of the arising of lokuttara panna. In sum 
> what I see is that the joined pair of samatha & vipassana are the 
> proximate and decisive support conditions for lokuttara panna.
> 

 
5170 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 9:52am
Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa?

 
  It always seems to me that Buddha taught many different people 
different things. I am always interested in the things that Buddha 
taught laypeople. I am not a monk so the "lay way" is important to me 
as a basis or foundation for practice. There are sutras that detail 
practice for Layites i.e. Gihi Sutta here's the link for those 
interested: 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html

It might be the case that as you say that tranquility  is not 
neccesary. I would think that could be true. It seems to be that the 
Buddha used it though. That says to me that it must be useful to a 
high degree.

So to dismiss it because of what we hear or read would be to border 
on the foolish. There are people who try as they might they cannot 
reach states of tranquility. (I'm not saying that about you Jon)

There are teachings of Buddha where he details the recollections, 
Buddhagosa uses the sutras in the Vissudhimagga. He says how 
recollecting develops states of calm etc. But again I think that 
Buddha taught many ways because many people are moving toward and 
into the stream. Being the Awakened one he was Buddha knew that 
whilst one person would dive in from the rocks there would be others 
wwho needed to paddle first, those who would move inslowly becasue 
they found the water cold. All roads don't lead to Rome, you have to 
turn left and right a few times till you find one that does,

antony


> > the condition of mind developed that does not pre
> > dispose itself to 
> > the arousal of the kilesas?
> 
> A good question.  Your question neatly brings into
> focus some of the differences between samatha bhavana
> (the development of tranquillity) and vipassana
> bhavana (the development of insight, or
> understanding).
> 
> The development of samatha is all about developing
> wholesome states of mind.  In order to achieve this to
> its highest degree, the mind is trained to the extent
> that the kilesas do not arise or, as you have so
> neatly put it, the mind is not disposed to the arousal
> of the kilesas.  This is achieved by attaining one
> pointedness of mind on one of the 40 meditation
> objects (kammatthana).  Only those 40 objects are
> suitable for the development of samatha.
> 
> Vipassana, or insight, is the development of awareness
> of a characteristic of a reality as appearing at that
> moment which, when developed, leads to the
> understanding of the true nature of the
> characteristics of that reality and of all realities. 
> There are no particular 'objects' that are suitable
> for awareness or understanding - any reality that
> appears at a given moment can be the object of
> awareness if awareness arises at that moment.
> 
> Coming to your question, while kilesas are subdued in
> the development of samatha at its higher levels, they
> are not actually eradicated.  This means they will
> arise again in the future, given the right conditions.
>  Only the panna (understanding) developed by vipassana
> can eradicate kilesa finally.
> 
> Whether the development of tranquillity is in fact
> necessary for the development of insight is a matter
> of some debate.  My own view is that it is not (but
> that is a whole other subject for debate!).
> 
> Antony, as a dhamma practitioner of some considerable
> experience, you no doubt have some views of your own
> on this subject.  Do share them!
> 
> Jon


 
5171 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 2:20pm
Subject: notes from Bkk

 
  Dear Rob (and Nina),

You asked me to share any points that were raised from
our recent discussions with Khun Sujin. I didn't make
any notes and haven't listened to the tapes, so these
will be very brief and some areas I've already touched
on. I'm happy to elaborate (according to my
understanding). 

For others, many of these areas resulted from
discussions in the fairly recent past on dsg. For
anyone new to the list or new to Pali, these notes
will be very confusing, but of course you're most
welcome to ask for any explanation. Just as a
reminder, some Pali terms can be found in the
glossary:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm

1. The PURPOSE of reading and study of dhamma should
be to develop ALL kinds of kusala at this moment,
otherwise it's just book study. We discussed at length
the importance of understanding cittas now, whether
they are kusala or akusala. 

2. SAMATHA development. The importance of knowing the
difference between a moment of samatha and the
development of samatha. Samatha is not developed
because of an intention to have it or wish to have it
develop by, for example, going to view a corpse. It is
now if we understand the difference between kusala and
akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we
open a sutta about metta with the intention to have
metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
understanding is always the key, so there can be
understanding of metta when it arises naturally by
conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed,
not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object
like breath for development. There was also a  lot
more discussion about breath as object of samatha.

3. HINDRANCE to development of satipatthana. The only
hindrance is the last one, ignorance. The other
hindrances are to the development of samatha only.

4. FEELINGS 

The following disorders in the Sivaka Sutta (re-quoted
here) are indirect conditions or causes for kamma to
result in bodily feelings...

'Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the
Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding
Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by
name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange
of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side.
Thus seated, he said: 
"There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmins
who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person
experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by
previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama
say about this?" 
"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise,
Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens,
can be known by oneself; also in the world it is
accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the)
phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by change
of climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by
the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka,
there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this
happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it
is accepted as true. 
"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a
doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences,
be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all
that is caused by previous action,' then they go
beyond what they know by themselves and what is
accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that
this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and
brahmins." 
When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering
ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is
excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me
as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in
him as long as life lasts." 'end quote

5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa is
a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin
colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these be
explained when kamma can cause only the kammaja-rupa?
KS's answer was that these fall under cakkhuppasada
rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja rupa.
Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa.

6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by
'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This
refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own').
Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take
them for being something as wrong view has not been
eradicated.

7. DECLINE of Buddhism. Teng raised the last sutta in
SamNik, Kassapa section, in which the 5th reason for
decline is the lack of achievement of jhanas. KS said
that this would be an indication/cause of decline
because it would show a lack of wholesome states being
developed. (It sounds descriptive rather than
prescriptive to me).

8. SABHAVA. Most realities have sabhava (essence) but
some rupas are abhava. The highly developed panna can
know the different stages of rupa: the first moment,
the succession, the decline and the death. These
lakhana (characteristics) are abhava. Also some
discussion about the trilakhana which are different
characterisitcs of the same reality. As an example of
why one characterisitic is noticed and not another, we
looked at a glass half-filled with pink juice. One
could either look at the liquid or the top clear part
depending on conditions.

9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why
not?"

10. VIPAKA now. We can't really say it's better or not
better to experience vipaka now, but what is being
experienced or what vipaka cittas arise now will
depend on conditions.

11. VIRIYA with akusala cittas..there can be very
strong viriya with these cittas too, for example with
lobha. Cittas which viriya arises with as discussed
including at moments of sloth and torpor.

12. MEDITATION. Again it is imporatant to understand
the cittas and the purpose. is there an idea to select
an object or to develop kusala with lobha?

13. SURVEY OF PARAMATHA DHAMMAS, translated by Nina VG
 http://www.abhidhamma.org/
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

Jon read parts out loud and these led to useful
discussions. KS has asked Jon to make a recording of
the whole book with discussions between us at the end
of each section!! Yet another project for retirement!

Perhaps others who were present (Jon, Betty, Ivan,
Sukin) may add to these notes. 

Sarah



5172 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 3:04pm
Subject: Abhidammatha Sangaha (Manual of Abhid)

 
  Dear Howard & Dan,

The quiet spell is giving me a chance to return to
some of your earlier posts.

Howard, you said you were working through Bodhi's AS
(Manual of Abhidhamma) and that you'd like to ask
questions. Please go ahead and no need to restrict
them. I hasten to add that you can probably give the
answers as well as anyone (certainly as well as me in
most cases), but I'm sure they'll open up useful
discussions.

Dan, you mentioned an apparent contradiction in
Narada's comm. on AS when he writes 'where there are
thina and middha (sloth & torpor) there is no viriya.'
As we now all agree, there is viriya accompanying
these cetasikas (mental factors), but in the Bodhi
translation (p84) it says they are 'opposed to energy
(viriya)'. Perhaps this is what he is referring to. I
take this viriya to be kusala viriya, how about you?
'Sloth is identified as sickness of consciousness
(cittagelanna), torpor as sickness of the mental
factors (kayagelanna).' 

Btw I do agree with what you said about some cittas
and actions being more 'vigorous'and viriya being more
prominent at these times. 'Just as a strong
reinforcement enables the king's army to defeat the
enemy, so energy upholds and supports all the
associated states and does not allow them to
recede'.(p82)


Sarah

Howard, I think I responded on the jivitindriya and
viriya question (?adequately)..just seen the phassa
one, which'll have to be next time.



 
5173 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 3:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Goenka's Teaching [Re: 'Vajrayana']

 
  Hi Howard & friends,

you quoted from Goenka's website here:
 > 
> "Any moment in which one does
> > not generate a 
> > new sakhara, one of the old ones will arise on the
> surface of
> > the mind, and 
> > along with it a sensation will start within the
> body. If one
> > remains 
> > equanimous, it passes away and another old
> reaction arises in
> > its place. One 
> > continues to remain equanimous to physical
> sensations and the
> > old sakhara 
> > continue to arise and pass away, one after
> another. If out of
> > ignorance one 
> > reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the
> sankhara,
> > multiplies one's 
> > misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not
> react to
> > sensations, then one 
> > after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery
> is
> > eradicated. The entire 
> > path is a way to come out of misery. By
> practising, you will
> > find that you 
> > stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are
> automatically
> > untied. 
> > Gradually you will progress towards a stage in
> which all
> > sankhara leading to 
> > new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have
> been
> > eradicated: the stage of 
> > total liberation, full enlightenment. 

In addition to the points Rob raised and Kom's
question, I'd also like to know what the purpose of
attending just to one doorway is when the Buddha
repeatedly taught us about 6 doorways? Is this a kind
of selection, with an idea of a 'self' that can select
and determine to be equanimous to particular realities
at this moment? 

Actually I talked to Goenka himself about these very
questions 25yrs ago and his response at that time was
something like it being too difficult for beginners to
be aware of all realities in daily life when they
start, so that this is the way (i.e. focusing on
sensations) to get started so that later there can be
awareness of any reality in daily life.

The difficulty is, as I see it of course, that
whatever reality through whatever doorway is appearing
now is conditioned already and cannot be selected. the
practice is to begin to understand and be aware of one
reality at a time without selecting place, time and
object. As I see it, this is the practice in the
beginning, middle and end.

Look forward to any further comments or disagreements!
I hasten to add that I think there may be many other
benefits, for example health benefits, from the
practice Mr Goenka teaches.

Best rgds,

Sarah


 
5174 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 5:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah)

 
  dear Jim.
Thanks for all this. As usual very helpful. But it still hasn't
resolved the question totally. Wyn  posted this question on
another forum and a knowledgeable memeber said that he thought
that tanha in this case might not have the precise meaning that
it does in the abhidhamma and could mean effort or chanda. Could
be.
I would love to know what the commenatry and tika that you
mentioned to the netti say.(but don't feel compelled to look
into it - already you help much)
thanks
 robert
--- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> While checking several versions of the commentary on A ii 146
> I noticed a
> possible error in the following translated section:
> 
> >Now
> >(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for
> Arahantship)
> >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? � It is
> >unwholesome.
> 
> The answer - unwholesome (akusalaa) is supported by the PTS
> and the
> Burmese CSCD versions but not by the Thai Budsir version which
> has
> 'kusalaa' as the answer. The footnote in the PTS edition notes
> that a
> Mandalay ms. and the Siamese ed. of 1920 reads 'kusalaa'. This
> is quite
> interesting as it is a discrepancy that can easily go
> unnoticed. My gut
> feeling is that 'kusalaa' is the correct answer. It is
> contrary to dhamma to
> state that the unwholesome is to be pursued (sevitabba) as in
> the reading of
> the PTS ed. (AA iii 136). We also know that 'ta.nhaa' can be
> either
> wholesome or unwholesome from the Nettippakara.na passage (p.
> 87).
> 
> I suppose that most of us had been thinking that 'ta.nhaa' is
> 'lobha' in the
> paramattha terminology but could it be something else --
> 'chanda'??
> 
> I also glanced through three layers of commentary on the
> Nettippakara.na
> passage regarding  the twofold ta.nhaa which have quite a lot
> to say about
> it. I didn't study them as there is just too much to take in
> (1 or 2 pages
> altogether) without spending a lot of time. This is just to
> let you know
> that the comments are there.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Jim
> 
> >Dear Sarah and Jim,
> >The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I
> >checked the pali and the English translation looks right.
> >There are other examples scattered throughout the texts:
> >A'nguttara Nikaaya : 'he abandons
> >ta.nhaa by means of ta.nhaa'
> >And the commentary says "Based on the present craving
> [ta.nhaa]
> >(i. e., desire for
> >becoming an Arahant), he gives up previous craving that was
> the
> >root-cause of (one's involvement in) the cycle of rebirth.
> Now
> >(it may be asked) whether such present craving (for
> Arahantship)
> >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? � It is
> >unwholesome. � Should it be pursued or not? � It SHOULD be
> >pursued [sevitabbaa]. � Does it drag one into rebirth
> >[pa.tisandhi.m aaka.d.dhati] or not? � It does not drag one
> into
> >rebirth." end quote
> >
> >
> >Nina wrote to me about Ang II,146,
> >
> > <The question why not I> is
> > only thinking, paravitakka. I will not try to translate
> here,
> >it is better if a Pali expert continues a little more, what
> the
> >bhikkhuni is thinking. There is also a paralel: though
> dependent
> >on food he abnadons food, this body (mental body) is
> dependent
> >on pride, pride must be abandoned... "
> >
> >And she also said: "sevitabba," this can also be translated
> as
> ><this can
> >be
> >pursued>, not necessarily an imperative, it must be pursued,
> ask
> >Jim.
> >The
> >monk is ripe for arahataship, and it is natural that there is
> >such a thought of, O, that I may attain it.
> >In the K. IV, 231, One hundred and eight, feelings are
> >classified and among the thirty-six there are feelings
> connected
> >with worldly life and feelings connected with nekkhamma,
> giving
> >up, even akusala feelings[thus even these akusala feelings
> are
> >related to nekkhamma].endquote
> >
> >Anything you can give us on the commentary would be much
> >appreciated Jim.
> >
> >We know that the vital conditions for the path
> >are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying
> >it.
> >Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but
> the
> >moments when there is understanding there is not tanha.
> >robert



 
5175 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:22pm
Subject: Kusala etc.

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

Sarah, thanks for this post. I always appreciate these 
clarifications. And, a couple of nits to pick (since that seems to be 
the thing to do around here :)

> 2. SAMATHA development. The importance of knowing the
> difference between a moment of samatha and the
> development of samatha. Samatha is not developed
> because of an intention to have it or wish to have it
> develop by, for example, going to view a corpse. It is
> now if we understand the difference between kusala and
> akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we
> open a sutta about metta with the intention to have
> metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> understanding is always the key, so there can be
> understanding of metta when it arises naturally by
> conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed,
> not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object
> like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> more discussion about breath as object of samatha.

I have to disagree with this. Mere attention to the breath is 
sufficient to engender samatha--if one can maintain that attention  
properly. All one needs to do is remain concentrated on the breath 
long enough, without too much tension, gently bringing the mind back 
again and again if it wanders, and it just works (assuming one has 
pacified really coarse junk through sila prior to this). Eventually 
things settle, and awareness becomes concentrated. This serves as the 
foundation for the jhanas. Once samatha is established this way then 
upcara is nearly automatic, because the mind "unifies" in 
concentration. It is "as easy as falling off a log" (to quote a 
Tibetan commentator) if done this way.

> 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by
> 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This
> refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own').
> Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take
> them for being something as wrong view has not been
> eradicated.

I asssume this is referring to the line in the Satipatthana Sutta 
where it says: "In this way he remains focused internally on the body 
in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both 
internally & externally on the body in & of itself."

If this is so, you may also be interested in Ven U Silananda's take 
on "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness," where he notes that 
the "externally" part refers to noticing this same characteristics 
when the yogi is contemplating the bodies of others. This doesn't 
disagree with what you said, but I think clarifies it some. I've seen 
this same interpretation Ven. U Silananda used in more than one 
place. What I got from this is that the point is to see all dhammas 
as anatta by investigating all their characteristics, whether in what 
one typically associates with a "self" as well as apparently external 
phenomena one associates with "other," to come to see that both 
internal and external partake of the same nature of being empty of 
own-being.

> 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
> cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why
> not?"

I can think of a reason. The very act of cognizing is conditioned, 
because there is always subject and object. Being conditioned, there 
is no way citta can apprehend something without marks, like Nibbana. 
The very act of "marking" it brings it into the realm of the 
conditioned. Just an observation, and am curious if there are any 
explanations or any commentaries that address this point. I haven't 
seen it addressed, and it's been bugging me for a long time now.

> 10. VIPAKA now. We can't really say it's better or not
> better to experience vipaka now, but what is being
> experienced or what vipaka cittas arise now will
> depend on conditions.

I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala vipaka 
as quickly as possible, because it vipaka grows in power (and 
conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it remains 
untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if left 
uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very diligently to 
purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its arising. 

Lama Atisha, the great Indian pandita and revered lineage master in 
my school, used to carry around a small stupa, and each time he let 
go of mindfulness or inadvertently damaged a precept, he would unpack 
his little stupa no matter where he was, travelling, whatever, and do 
many prostrations for purification on the spot. In this way when even 
the smallest thought of anger or grasping or wrong view arises, it 
should be purified on the spot in whatever way one finds most 
suitable. If it is allowed to remain unpurified, then it grows in 
strenght and serves as the condition for the arising of many more 
similar akusala states.

Speaking of Kusala, much has been said here about kusala, but I would 
like to add one thought here. Kusala should be just as big a priority 
as lokuttara panna, for a number of reasons. Without sila, there is 
no concentration, for example. Too many nivaranas present. Also, 
another thing to consider. The kusala and akusala cittas are mutually 
exclusive. Menaing, one cannot simultaneously have both kusala and 
akusala citta arising at the same moment. It's a truly all-or-nothing 
reality.

Another fact is that kusala is much more difficult to have than 
akusala. These is Khun Sujim's own words. Therefore, the odds of us 
having kusala cittas at any moment are slim to none. What does this 
mean? Theat most of the cittas arising in a vithi are akusala. This 
is NO GOOD! Ceratinly no good for the arising of supramundane wisdom, 
which requires enormous stocks of merit (or at least to be free from 
all the hindrances to a very highly polished degree).

My opinion would be that worrying a lot about lokuttarra panna--if 
there is not skill enough for at least upcara samadhi--is a waste of 
time other than for getting rid of the grossest intellectual flavors 
of miccha-ditthi (which of course is always beneficial). To do 
emphasize wisdom at the expanse of merit (or vice versa) is like 
trying to fly with a broken wing. The Buddha's formualation, in 
order, consists of dana, sila, samadhi, panna. Until the sila part is 
well-established, there is no hope of samadhi. Likewise, without 
samadhi, there is no hope of concentrating the mind enough to 
thoroughly penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas.

Thoughts, comments?

As always, appreciate the wonderful dialogues here.

 
5176 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 8:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> > > 10. VIPAKA now. We can't really say it's better or not
> > better to experience vipaka now, but what is being
> > experienced or what vipaka cittas arise now will
> > depend on conditions.
> 
> I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala
> vipaka 
> as quickly as possible, because it vipaka grows in power (and 
> conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it
> remains 
> untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if
> left 
> uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very
> diligently to 
> purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its
> arising. 
> 
> Lama Atisha, the great Indian pandita and revered lineage
> master in 
> my school, used to carry around a small stupa, and each time
> he let 
> go of mindfulness or inadvertently damaged a precept, he would
> unpack 
> his little stupa no matter where he was, travelling, whatever,
> and do 
> many prostrations for purification on the spot. In this way
> when even 
> the smallest thought of anger or grasping or wrong view
> arises, it 
> should be purified on the spot in whatever way one finds most 
> suitable. If it is allowed to remain unpurified, then it grows
> in 
> strenght and serves as the condition for the arising of many
> more 
> similar akusala states.
> 
> Speaking of Kusala, much has been said here about kusala, but
> I would 
> like to add one thought here. Kusala should be just as big a
> priority 
> as lokuttara panna, for a number of reasons. Without sila,
> there is 
> no concentration, for example. Too many nivaranas present.
> Also, 
> another thing to consider. The kusala and akusala cittas are
> mutually 
> exclusive. Menaing, one cannot simultaneously have both kusala
> and 
> akusala citta arising at the same moment. It's a truly
> all-or-nothing 
> reality.
> 
> Another fact is that kusala is much more difficult to have
> than 
> akusala. These is Khun Sujim's own words. Therefore, the odds
> of us 
> having kusala cittas at any moment are slim to none. What does
> this 
> mean? Theat most of the cittas arising in a vithi are akusala.
> This 
> is NO GOOD! Ceratinly no good for the arising of supramundane
> wisdom, 
> which requires enormous stocks of merit (or at least to be
> free from 
> all the hindrances to a very highly polished degree).
> 
> My opinion would be that worrying a lot about lokuttarra
> panna--if 
> there is not skill enough for at least upcara samadhi--is a
> waste of 
> time other than for getting rid of the grossest intellectual
> flavors 
> of miccha-ditthi (which of course is always beneficial). To do
> 
> emphasize wisdom at the expanse of merit (or vice versa) is
> like 
> trying to fly with a broken wing. The Buddha's formualation,
> in 
> order, consists of dana, sila, samadhi, panna. Until the sila
> part is 
> well-established, there is no hope of samadhi. Likewise,
> without 
> samadhi, there is no hope of concentrating the mind enough to 
> thoroughly penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas.
> 
> ___________________

Firstly Erik, you seem to be mistaking vipaka (the result of
kamma) for kamma. Vipaka is not of the jati of kusala or
akusala(although we talk about akusala and kusala results).
Akusala or kusala is only perfomed in later moments after vipaka
arises.

Leaving that aside, do you know the phrase silabata-upadana?
This is clinging to rule and ritual and is a form of wrong view.
it can be  gross or very subtle. 
In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha recounts that many of those
who have excellent sila and can attain even the sublime arupa
jhanas have wrong view. Even one of his first teachers could
attain and master all eight mundane jhanas and believed(and
stated ) that he was enlightened - but wasn't. 
When in thailand I used to put my hands together whenever we
passed a temple, and in thailand that is every 2 minutes. Khun
duang duen(secreatry of the foundation) asked me why and I said
because it serves as a reminder of the merit of the buddha etc.
And in fact this is true. However, it all depends on the
understanding at the moment as to the degree of kusala. For one
it can be simply respect but without any understanding of the
qualities of the Buddha - (They think of buddha in a
superstitious way). For another they think of the qualities so
the kusala is more refined. Another is aware of feeling or
seeing or thinking even while paying respects- and this is
satipatthana, the real resort of followers of buddha. No one can
know by looking at someone, what cittas are arising at such
moments - and even the person doing so may not be aware of
subtle clinging such as hoping for good results or slight lobha
for awareness. Or conceit about ones 'merit'. 
Does this mean don't do it? No but I use it to demonstrate why
satipatthana is helpful in all situations; helpful because it
reduces self, and that is the way out of samsara. We can purify
sila or samatha to the nth degree but it will still be tainted
by wrongview if satipatthana is not developed in conjunction
with it.
In the samyutta nikaya(which I don't have handy) there are
several suttas where it says that one should understand the six
bases. One can focus on breathing but I would suggest they also
learn to understand seeing and colour if they have time off from
their concentration exercises.
robert


 
5177 From: Jonothan Abbott 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 8:52pm
Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa?

 
  Antony

--- Antony wrote:
> It always seems to me that Buddha taught many different people 
> different things. 

I'm sure this is exactly right.  And it is often not apparent from a 
casual reading of a sutta who the listeners were or what their 
particular circumstances might have been.  Yet this is all necessary 
stuff if we are to understand the sutta properly.  For example, if a 
sutta about samatha was addressed to monks who were already well 
established in samatha, or in mindfulness (or both), that would have
a 
bearing on how we 'read' that teaching.  That is why an fairly 
extensive knowledge of the suttas (and the other pitakas) is
necessary 
in order to understand any part of the teachings.

> It might be the case that as you say that tranquility  is not 
> neccesary. I would think that could be true. It seems to be that
the 
> Buddha used it though. That says to me that it must be useful to a 
> high degree.

That is indeed true.  Samatha (tranquillity) is kusala of a very high 
degree, and is of course to be encouraged.  But it should not be 
confused with satipatthana or vipassana.  And like satipatthana and 
vipassana, it is not easy to understand and therefore not easy to 
develop.  Samatha cannot be developed without a precise understanding 
of whether the citta (moment of consciousness) is kusala or akusala.  
One who develops satipatthana will also be able to develop samatha.

> There are teachings of Buddha where he details the recollections, 
> Buddhagosa uses the sutras in the Vissudhimagga. 

In the introductory part of Visuddhimagga there is an interesting 
passage which shows just how necessary it is to have a proper command 
of the whole teachings in order to see clearly the message that the 
Buddha was trying to deliver, and how easy it would be to misconstrue 
what is being said.  At Vis.I,6 it says -

"In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight 
alone, according as it is said: 
`Formations are all impermanent: 
`When he sees thus with understanding 
`And turns away from what is ill, 
`That is the path to purity'  (Dh. 277).

And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is 
said: 
`He is near unto nibbana 
`In whom are jhana and understanding'  (Dh. 372). 

And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it 
is said: 
`By deeds, vision and righteousness, 
`By virtue, the sublimest life � 
`By these are mortals purified, 
`And not by lineage and wealth'   (M.iii,262) 
  
And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: 
`He who is possessed of constant virtue, 
`Has understanding, and is concentrated, 
`Is strenuous and diligent as well, 
`Will cross the flood so difficult to cross'   (S.i, 53). 

And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., 
according as it is said: 
`Bhikkhus, this path is the only way for the purification of
beings, . 
. . for the realization of nibbana, that is to say, the four 
Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the
case of 
the right efforts, and so on.  But in the answer to this question it 
is taught by virtue and the other two."
[ends]

It would be easy, taking any one of those quotes on its own, to come 
away with a wrong idea of the teaching.  Nothing is as
straightforward 
as it seems!

Jon

PS  Would like to discuss your Gihi Sutta al

 
5178 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 5:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 5/9/01 2:21:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah writes:


> 3. HINDRANCE to development of satipatthana. The only
> hindrance is the last one, ignorance. The other
> hindrances are to the development of samatha only.
> 
> 
> 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
> cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why
> not?"
> 
==================================
       The above two strike me as less than optimal answers. # 9 simply 
offers no explanation. Without some detailed clarification, # 3 appears to be 
simply false. Sorry to be a nay-sayer, but this is how I see these.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5179 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.

 
  >> I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala
>> vipaka
>> as quickly as possible,


Who? is unloading akusala vipaka as quickly as possible?

>> because it vipaka grows in power (and
>> conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it
>> remains
>> untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if
>> left
>> uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very
>> diligently to
>> purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its
>> arising.

Who? is working diligently, becoming aware of its arising etc.  And what is
arising whatever surely just arises, endures and then dissolves on its own
accord?  Who is placing a value judgment on any arising and when is this
judgment noted. Surely all this is occurring after the event?  Is this
noted? How is one noting "conceptuality" without clinging?

One Tibetan Rinpoche pointed out to me that all arisings when
recognized,(moment of contact) are an expression of intrinsic nature - its
energy, purity and intelligence.  In this recognition, then there cannot be
any duality, any "I" and "mine", the essential akusala.  Is there something
apart from consciousness? (awareness) Mind can create an object or structure
called meditator who then notes other objects -but any objects noted are the
energetic expression of consciousness noted by knowing and not other than
the meditator construct.

Sorry, not a scholar, don't know Pali or Sanskrit.

Metta,

Joyce

 
5180 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

> Firstly Erik, you seem to be mistaking vipaka (the result of
> kamma) for kamma. Vipaka is not of the jati of kusala or
> akusala(although we talk about akusala and kusala results).
> Akusala or kusala is only perfomed in later moments after vipaka
> arises.

Hi Robert,

I may be an Abhidhamma beginner, but cut me a little slack! I have at 
least learned this basic distinction! :) It seems difficult to make 
such a mistake if one knows the definition of a vipakacitta. Anyway, 
what I was trying to convey here is that visuddhi is a necessary for 
awakening.

> Leaving that aside, do you know the phrase silabata-upadana?
> This is clinging to rule and ritual and is a form of wrong view.
> it can be  gross or very subtle. 

My understanding of silabattaparamasa is that it is abandoned through 
clear knowing of the activities that lead to release. At this point 
one discards the precepts because they've become thoroughly 
established in one's own being. Sila at this point becomes 
spontaneous and effortless, and there isn't even the thought of 
violating at minimum the panca-sila. There is also no thought of 
following some codified set of precepts, because those precepts are 
thoroughly embodied. That is what it means to have this fetter 
terminated as I understand it. 

> In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha recounts that many of those
> who have excellent sila and can attain even the sublime arupa
> jhanas have wrong view.

Of course. This has never been a point of contention. The point of 
contention is the degree of emphasis placed on kusala. I would say 
(and this is also what I've been learned in my own studies) that the 
two--sila & panna--have to work in tandem, like "two wings on a 
bird." Also, it is important to know the appropriate order for 
bhavana. One doesn't just jump into insight (unless one is a true 
spiritual savant with strong accumulations of panna from before). One 
first cultivates sila. There is no other way, because without sila, 
no pacification of the hindrances. No pacification, no concentration. 
No concentration, no insight. No insight, no release. This 
progression is quite straightforward.

Also, again, unless there is conscious development of kusala, it 
simply won't have occasion to arise. Given the only alternative to 
this is the arising of akusala, which is preferable?  Are a 
1,000,000,000 moments of akusala preferable to 999,000,000 akusala 
and 1,000,000 kusala?

Which reminds me, what is the specific meditation practice you 
presently do in this regard? I think this may help clarify some. Does 
it involve sitting meditation, focusing on the body in & of itself, 
for example? I am trying to understand the "other side" so to speak, 
because I am not clear on the meditation practices being taught here 
other than checking the arising and passing of Dhammas in daily life, 
without any sitting meditation at all.

> Even one of his first teachers could
> attain and master all eight mundane jhanas and believed(and
> stated ) that he was enlightened - but wasn't. 
> When in thailand I used to put my hands together whenever we
> passed a temple, and in thailand that is every 2 minutes. Khun
> duang duen(secreatry of the foundation) asked me why and I said
> because it serves as a reminder of the merit of the buddha etc.
> And in fact this is true. However, it all depends on the
> understanding at the moment as to the degree of kusala. For one
> it can be simply respect but without any understanding of the
> qualities of the Buddha - (They think of buddha in a
> superstitious way). For another they think of the qualities so
> the kusala is more refined. Another is aware of feeling or
> seeing or thinking even while paying respects- and this is
> satipatthana, the real resort of followers of buddha. No one can
> know by looking at someone, what cittas are arising at such
> moments - and even the person doing so may not be aware of
> subtle clinging such as hoping for good results or slight lobha
> for awareness. Or conceit about ones 'merit'. 
> Does this mean don't do it? No but I use it to demonstrate why
> satipatthana is helpful in all situations; helpful because it
> reduces self, and that is the way out of samsara. We can purify
> sila or samatha to the nth degree but it will still be tainted
> by wrongview if satipatthana is not developed in conjunction
> with it.
> In the samyutta nikaya(which I don't have handy) there are
> several suttas where it says that one should understand the six
> bases. One can focus on breathing but I would suggest they also
> learn to understand seeing and colour if they have time off from
> their concentration exercises.

Robert, I agree with everything you say here, and I accept it in 
light of the need to always maintain the balance of the Middle Way, 
to avoid going to extremes. For this reason I appreciate these 
reminders. On the other hand, if one reads these reminders about 
motivation and then thinks one can'd possibly practice kusala well or 
one can do away with cultivating kusala and just focus on insight, 
then I see a very big problem. At least it's a big problem if the 
intention is getting out of samsara.

I just want to be clear and say that I am responding to what I 
perceive as a lack of emphasis here in dsg on the indispensible 
practice of developing kusala states of mind (and samatha and jhanas, 
for that matter). I know this has been covered before, and I know no 
one is denying kusala is important. This is more a matter of 
emphasis, as I see it. This is one of the problems I have had with 
Zen as well. I have seen the fruits of this emphasis in the 
disturbing statements of certain Japanase Zen masters. Brian 
Victoria's "Zen at War" shows just how perilous the extreme 
of "wisdom" can be when divorced from sila, and especially from 
metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha.

Great stuff, look forward to more!

E.

 
5181 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.

 
  --- "Joyce Short"  wrote:

> Who? is working diligently, becoming aware of its arising etc.

Who indeed? And yet, there is the experience of dukkha.

>  And what is
> arising whatever surely just arises, endures and then dissolves on 
its own
> accord?  

Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha.

> Who is placing a value judgment on any arising and when is this
> judgment noted. Surely all this is occurring after the event?  Is 
this
> noted? How is one noting "conceptuality" without clinging?

Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha.

> One Tibetan Rinpoche pointed out to me that all arisings when
> recognized,(moment of contact) are an expression of intrinsic 
nature - its
> energy, purity and intelligence.

Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha.

>  In this recognition, then there cannot be
> any duality, any "I" and "mine", the essential akusala.

Indeed. In Nibbana there is no duality (how can duality exist even as 
a CONCEPT in that which lacks conditions?), nor dukkha. And then 
there is duality and dukkha all over again, a few mind-moments later 
(unless this represents the attainment of the fruit of an arahat).

>  Is there something
> apart from consciousness? (awareness) Mind can create an object or 
structure
> called meditator who then notes other objects -but any objects 
noted are the
> energetic expression of consciousness noted by knowing and not 
other than
> the meditator construct.

Someone trained in the Madhyamika-Prasangika system would say that 
nothing arises apart from its parts, causes, or the mind labeling it. 

Joyce, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, no matter which 
tradition we deal with, we have to cultivate kusala. There is no 
alternative to this. No amount of "self liberating through 
recognizing" can do away with the fact that to even get to this point 
requires big stocks of merit. That is why there are practices like 
ngondro (Tibetan dhutanga) to perform, either 100,000 prostrations, 
or whatever, to prepare the mind to bring about the sort of 
recognition of the essential nature of dhammas you mention.

 
5182 From: Num 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk

 
  Hi Sarah,

I really appreciate your mail. Thank you for always has a follow-up answer 
and explanation.   I probably have to think about it more and more, but I 
will try to respond and clarify something which is still not clear to me.

<<<

"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise,
Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens,
can be known by oneself; also in the world it is
accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the)
phlegm...of wind...of (the three) combined...by change
of climate...by adverse behavior...by injuries...by
the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka,
there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this
happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it
is accepted as true. 
"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a
doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences,
be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all
that is caused by previous action,' then they go
beyond what they know by themselves and what is
accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that
this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and
brahmins." 
When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering
ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is
excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me
as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in
him as long as life lasts." 

>>>

So you mean not every bodily phenomenon is a result of kamma.  Anyhow, every 
pasada-rupa is a kammaja-rupa. So kamma has somewhat indirect role that it 
conditions the pasada-rupa to continuously arise.  

<<<<

5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa is
a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin
color etc, good-looking appearance..how can these be
explained when kamma can cause only the kammaja-rupa?
KS's answer was that these fall under cakkhuppasada
rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja rupa.
Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa.

>>>>

I am not clear particularly about this one.  I can imagine that cakkhu-pasada 
as well as other pasada-rupa are a result of kamma. Cakku-pasada-rupa mean a 
visual sense organ not a outside visible object, though. 

<<<<
6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by
'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This
refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own').
Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take
them for being something as wrong view has not been
eradicated.
>>>>

 So it does not mean anohet's another person's citta or thought and feeling.  
It still means our own mental processes which think of external object??  
What is the internal object?  I haven't looked up for a search for 
Cheto-pariya-nanna, ability to know and read another person's mind.  I just 
got my notebook back, so I can search it on my Thai Tipitaka CDrom.




 
5183 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.

 
  Hi, Erik (and Joyce) -

In a message dated 5/9/01 10:50:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Erik writes:


> Someone trained in the Madhyamika-Prasangika system would say that 
> nothing arises apart from its parts, causes, or the mind labeling it. 
> 
================================
       As I understand it, all samsaric experience originates at the vortex 
of vi~n~nana/namarupa, wherein there is the discerning of objects. So even 
when there is no labelling (yet), no naming or conceptualizing - no sa~n~na, 
there is no object of discernment without the citta which discerns it - 
without the action of discerning. Thus all things which can be considered as 
objects are objects of discernment (at least conditionally in the sense that 
"when this is discerned then that is - or will be - discerned"). 
       I am not disagreeing with your third item; I'm just questioning the 
emphasis on labelling there. As far as dependence on parts, that, of course, 
goes all the way back to the chariot example, and constitutes another 
instance of the faithfulness of your school to the original teachings. 
Obviously, dependence on causes is basic as well. Likewise for dependence on 
mind, as can be seen, for example, in the Dhammapada.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5184 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.

 
  > Joyce, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, no matter which 
> tradition we deal with, we have to cultivate kusala.

No dis-agreement here - although perhaps it is wisdom to ask who is
cultivating wisdom at the same time cultivation occurs, otherwise there is
just continuing "akusala" (identification) not noted -(smile). I have met
practitioners who have done their 100,000's and still remain quite attached
to their accomplishment and the notion that there was someone "doing" the
practice -having forgotten about "absolute" bodhicitta in the relative, to
say nothing of the fact that during the practice no mindfulness was at all
present. And those vipassana meditators who for a time, fiercely maintain
separate "objectivity" through noting and labelling separate "objects".

I have been basically a vipassana practitioner - with some Tibetan practice
- and so I appreciate your kind response on what is essentially a "dhamma"
list. I guess it comes down to "view".

I think it is more like, liberation of hearing in hearing, liberation of
seeing in seeing etc  -ie. "in hearing there is only hearing, in seeing
there is only seeing, in thinking there is only thinking" - not-two  -not
"I" think, "I" see...and so forth - meditation occurs....sometimes in spite
of the 'meditator' (smile) In all recognition - there is recognition of
not-self, impermanence and suffering ( from grasping mind) - all though one
can also note energy, clarity and intrinsic wisdom or intelligence in
non-grasping.

Metta,

Joyce



 There is no
> alternative to this. No amount of "self liberating through
> recognizing" can do away with the fact that to even get to this point
> requires big stocks of merit. That is why there are practices like
> ngondro (Tibetan dhutanga) to perform, either 100,000 prostrations,
> or whatever, to prepare the mind to bring about the sort of
> recognition of the essential nature of dhammas you mention.
>

 
5185 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Firstly Erik, you seem to be mistaking vipaka (the result of
> > kamma) for kamma. Vipaka is not of the jati of kusala or
> > akusala(although we talk about akusala and kusala results).
> > Akusala or kusala is only perfomed in later moments after
> vipaka
> > arises.
> 
> Hi Robert,
> 
> I may be an Abhidhamma beginner, but cut me a little slack! I
> have at 
> least learned this basic distinction! :) It seems difficult to
> make 
> such a mistake if one knows the definition of a vipakacitta.
> Anyway, 
> what I was trying to convey here is that visuddhi is a
> necessary for 
> awakening.

This is what you wrote, Erik.
>ERIK: I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload
akusala
> vipaka 
> as quickly as possible, because it vipaka grows in power (and 
> conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it
> remains 
> untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if
> left 
> uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very
> diligently to 
> purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its
> arising. 
>  Lama Atisha, the great Indian pandita and revered lineage
> master in 
> my school, used to carry around a small stupa, and each time
> he let 
> go of mindfulness or inadvertently damaged a precept, he would
> unpack 
> his little stupa no matter where he was, travelling, whatever,
> and do 
> many prostrations for purification on the spot.
_______________________________________

How does vipaka condition more of the same type? How can you
treat vipaka? we don't even know which life the kamma that
conditioned the vipaka was - or what it was. You refer to lama
atisha but surely what he is doing is related to akusala citta
or kusala citta - not vipaka citta? he sees that moments with
akusala arise so he tries to remind himself of kusala. I don't
see where 'treating vipaka' comes in?
_____________


> 
> > Leaving that aside, do you know the phrase silabata-upadana?
> > This is clinging to rule and ritual and is a form of wrong
> view.
> > it can be  gross or very subtle. 
> 
> My understanding of silabattaparamasa is that it is abandoned
> through 
> clear knowing of the activities that lead to release. At this
> point 
> one discards the precepts because they've become thoroughly 
> established in one's own being. Sila at this point becomes 
> spontaneous and effortless, and there isn't even the thought
> of 
> violating at minimum the panca-sila. There is also no thought
> of 
> following some codified set of precepts, because those
> precepts are 
> thoroughly embodied. That is what it means to have this fetter
> 
> terminated as I understand it. 


________________

I don't know if one discards the precepts but certainly they
become established so that they can't ever be broken.
this is at that late stage, but the path is gradual. This
clinging to sila must be seen otherwise it will be mistaken as
the right path. And that is wrong view. __


> 
> > In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha recounts that many of
> those
> > who have excellent sila and can attain even the sublime
> arupa
> > jhanas have wrong view.
> 
> Of course. This has never been a point of contention. The
> point of 
> contention is the degree of emphasis placed on kusala. I would
> say 
> (and this is also what I've been learned in my own studies)
> that the 
> two--sila & panna--have to work in tandem, like "two wings on
> a 
> bird." Also, it is important to know the appropriate order for
> 
> bhavana. One doesn't just jump into insight (unless one is a
> true 
> spiritual savant with strong accumulations of panna from
> before). One 
> first cultivates sila. There is no other way, because without
> sila, 
> no pacification of the hindrances. No pacification, no
> concentration. 
> No concentration, no insight. No insight, no release. This 
> progression is quite straightforward.


______________________

I think this is a mistake and a common one. there is a
commentary somewhere that says that the four great efforts all
come together  whenever there is understanding of the moment.
There is sila at that moment, there is samadhi and there is
panna. When there is insight into say colour, and that can be
just a little, even now for us, there is a degree of detachment.
One can know the difference of moments without awareness of this
type. If a beautiful girl is the object of seeing then if there
is no awareness this object conditions desire. but when there is
awreness of colour (for instance) there is not desire. If one
doesn't know how to study the present moment yet this may seem
hard to do . But it can be done. 
One can try to perfect sila first . For example, refuse to go
anywhere where one might see beautiful woman. This is fine, it
is kusala. But why not learn to have the type of kusala that
includes sila,samaadhi and panna at the same time? if there is
satipatthana at the moment of seeing one doesn't have to try to
stop lust because one doesn't lust just for colour. Rather the
mental processes work to form up a concept (woman), it happens
so fast; this is the wheel of paticcasamupada (dependent
origination)- but moments of insight interrupt that process. 
________________


> 
> Also, again, unless there is conscious development of kusala,
> it 
> simply won't have occasion to arise. Given the only
> alternative to 
> this is the arising of akusala, which is preferable?  Are a 
> 1,000,000,000 moments of akusala preferable to 999,000,000
> akusala 
> and 1,000,000 kusala?

___________________

When is there a time when the Buddha said "don't have
satipatthana." ?
I see many moments when sati doesn't arise but also many times
when it arises in less than calm or ideal situations. As a
beginner I find that stressful situations can even condition
more awareness because they are like a redflag saying "sati is
wanted here". Khun sujin said this is still clinging though and
one should learn to have awareness even in the most pleasant
situations.
______________ 


> 
> Which reminds me, what is the specific meditation practice you
> 
> presently do in this regard? I think this may help clarify
> some. Does 
> it involve sitting meditation, focusing on the body in & of
> itself, 
> for example? I am trying to understand the "other side" so to
> speak, 
> because I am not clear on the meditation practices being
> taught here 
> other than checking the arising and passing of Dhammas in
> daily life, 
> without any sitting meditation at all.

______________________

Mostly my meditation practice involves the investigation of the
dhammas at the six doors. It also includes much reflection on
Dhamma (Dhammanusati) and this is at the level of samatha.
Marananusati (reflection on death) used to be a very common
reflection but is more intermittant now. 
Sometimes there are periods where there is none of the above- I
don't feel guilty when there is no kusala because these moments
should be understood too. WE can get very stressed if we have
the idea that WE must do this or do that. I take a pretty
relaxed approach and that has its obvious dangers but I do think
we need to find our own balance, not be making  rules about how
an ideal buddhist should live.

When I sit  that is the time I do the above. And when I walk and
talk and lie down and go shopping.
The Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213
Mahanama) says about recollection of
the virtues of the Buddha,  and recollection of the
Dhamma and several other types of sammattha that:

 �` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as
you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should
make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging
crowded with children�

 In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347
The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants 
came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should
live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train
themselves thus:
 �as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha,
deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerened
with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will
spend our days learning them. That is how you must
spend your days.�
_
________________________


> 
> > Even one of his first teachers could
> > attain and master all eight mundane jhanas and believed(and
> > stated ) that he was enlightened - but wasn't. 
> > When in thailand I used to put my hands together whenever we
> > passed a temple, and in thailand that is every 2 minutes.
> Khun
> > duang duen(secreatry of the foundation) asked me why and I
> said
> > because it serves as a reminder of the merit of the buddha
> etc.
> > And in fact this is true. However, it all depends on the
> > understanding at the moment as to the degree of kusala. For
> one
> > it can be simply respect but without any understanding of
> the
> > qualities of the Buddha - (They think of buddha in a
> > superstitious way). For another they think of the qualities
> so
> > the kusala is more refined. Another is aware of feeling or
> > seeing or thinking even while paying respects- and this is
> > satipatthana, the real resort of followers of buddha. No one
> can
> > know by looking at someone, what cittas are arising at such
> > moments - and even the person doing so may not be aware of
> > subtle clinging such as hoping for good results or slight
> lobha
> > for awareness. Or conceit about ones 'merit'. 
> > Does this mean don't do it? No but I use it to demonstrate
> why
> > satipatthana is helpful in all situations; helpful because
> it
> > reduces self, and that is the way out of samsara. We can
> purify
> > sila or samatha to the nth degree but it will still be
> tainted
> > by wrongview if satipatthana is not developed in conjunction
> > with it.
> > In the samyutta nikaya(which I don't have handy) there are
> > several suttas where it says that one should understand the
> six
> > bases. One can focus on breathing but I would suggest they
> also
> > learn to understand seeing and colour if they have time off
> from
> > their concentration exercises.
_________________________________
> 
> Robert, I agree with everything you say here, and I accept it
> in 
> light of the need to always maintain the balance of the Middle
> Way, 
> to avoid going to extremes. For this reason I appreciate these
> 
> reminders. On the other hand, if one reads these reminders
> about 
> motivation and then thinks one can'd possibly practice kusala
> well or 
> one can do away with cultivating kusala and just focus on
> insight, 
> then I see a very big problem. At least it's a big problem if
> the 
> intention is getting out of samsara.
___________________

I think what I find is that all different types of kusala become
gradually easier (a little) through study and practise of
satipatthana. if one sees that this or that treasured object is
simply colour and smell and touch then there is not the same
degree of attachment. Much easier to be generous. 
I love to read the Jataka and even just studying it is kusala at
some level. So many moral pointers in there - it helps one in
daily life. Whenever I see a full moon I see the rabbit etched
on it - it reminds me of the bodhisatta.(just one example)

As you  perhaps indicate one can be fooling onself if one thinks
"hey I am developing insight, no need for the lower stuff". One
might be just developing nothing. 
It is all so profound. We have to do it all ourself, see it for
ourself. 
robert




> 
> I just want to be clear and say that I am responding to what I
> 
> perceive as a lack of emphasis here in dsg on the
> indispensible 
> practice of developing kusala states of mind (and samatha and
> jhanas, 
> for that matter). I know this has been covered before, and I
> know no 
> one is denying kusala is important. This is more a matter of 
> emphasis, as I see it. This is one of the problems I have had
> with 
> Zen as well. I have seen the fruits of this emphasis in the 
> disturbing statements of certain Japanase Zen masters. Brian 
> Victoria's "Zen at War" shows just how perilous the extreme 
> of "wisdom" can be when divorced from sila, and especially
> from 
> metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha.
> 
> Great stuff, look forward to more!
> 
> E.




 
5186 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidammatha Sangaha (Manual of Abhid)

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 5/9/01 3:05:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah  writes:


> Howard, you said you were working through Bodhi's AS
> (Manual of Abhidhamma) and that you'd like to ask
> questions. Please go ahead and no need to restrict
> them. I hasten to add that you can probably give the
> answers as well as anyone (certainly as well as me in
> most cases), but I'm sure they'll open up useful
> discussions.
> 
> 
==========================
Thanks, Sarah. No additional questions right now.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         
 
5187 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:35pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.

 
  Hi Howard,

Ive found you gain - 

Im not going to be able to offer anything useful to this list - after many,
many years of practice, all I can honestly say is that I don't know anything
at all.  But, the Dhammapada is good to read....

"Wanting nothing
with all your heart
Stop the stream.

When the world dissolves
Everything becomes clear.

Go beyond this way or that way,
To the farther shore
Where the world dissolves
And everything becomes clear.

Beyond this shore
And the farther shore
beyond the beyond,
Where there there is no beginning,
No end.

Without fear, go.

Metta,

Joyce



>
>> Someone trained in the Madhyamika-Prasangika system would say that
>> nothing arises apart from its parts, causes, or the mind labeling it.
>>
> ================================
>        As I understand it, all samsaric experience originates at the vortex
> of vi~n~nana/namarupa, wherein there is the discerning of objects. So even
> when there is no labelling (yet), no naming or conceptualizing - no sa~n~na,
> there is no object of discernment without the citta which discerns it -
> without the action of discerning. Thus all things which can be considered as
> objects are objects of discernment (at least conditionally in the sense that
> "when this is discerned then that is - or will be - discerned").
>        I am not disagreeing with your third item; I'm just questioning the
> emphasis on labelling there. As far as dependence on parts, that, of course,
> goes all the way back to the chariot example, and constitutes another
> instance of the faithfulness of your school to the original teachings.
> Obviously, dependence on causes is basic as well. Likewise for dependence on
> mind, as can be seen, for example, in the Dhammapada.
>
> With metta,
> Howard
>
>
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)

 
5188 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.

 
  Hi, Joyce -

In a message dated 5/9/01 11:38:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Joyce Short writes:


> Hi Howard,
> 
> Ive found you gain - 
> 
> Im not going to be able to offer anything useful to this list - after many,
> many years of practice, all I can honestly say is that I don't know anything
> at all.  But, the Dhammapada is good to read....
> 
> "Wanting nothing
> with all your heart
> Stop the stream.
> 
> When the world dissolves
> Everything becomes clear.
> 
> Go beyond this way or that way,
> To the farther shore
> Where the world dissolves
> And everything becomes clear.
> 
> Beyond this shore
> And the farther shore
> beyond the beyond,
> Where there there is no beginning,
> No end.
> 
> Without fear, go.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Joyce
> 
> 
> 
> 
==================================
       You wrote: "... all I can honestly say is that I don't know anything 
at all." In that case, I'd say you've made great progress!!
       BTW, what's the source of the poem you quote? It's lovely.

With metta,
Howard
 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5189 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 0:07am
Subject: Re: Kusala etc. (mine or yours)

 
  BTW, what's the source of the poem you quote? It's lovely.

Yes, of course, perfectly lovely  -it's from the Dhammapada.


"He does not linger
With those who have a home
Nor with those who stray,
Wanting nothing,
He travels on alone.

Whatever is not his
He refuses,
Good or bad, great or small."


Quite "homeless" in this "not-knowing"   -quite bankrupt, all "homes"
re-possessed.  Nothing is mine. What a relief, Im not responsible for the
upkeep. J.

 
5190 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:41pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.

 
  --- "Joyce Short"  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Joyce, I appreciate your comments. To clarify, no matter which 
> > tradition we deal with, we have to cultivate kusala.
> 
> No dis-agreement here - although perhaps it is wisdom to ask who is
> cultivating wisdom at the same time cultivation occurs, otherwise 
there is
> just continuing "akusala" (identification) not noted -(smile). I 
have met
> practitioners who have done their 100,000's and still remain quite 
attached
> to their accomplishment and the notion that there was 
someone "doing" the
> practice -having forgotten about "absolute" bodhicitta in the 
relative, to
> say nothing of the fact that during the practice no mindfulness was 
at all
> present. And those vipassana meditators who for a time, fiercely 
maintain
> separate "objectivity" through noting and labelling 
separate "objects".

Hi Joyce,

You bring up the idea that Robert mentioned, the notion that it is 
quite possible to become attached to kusala. I think it is very 
important to be aware of what both yourself and Robert mention, 
namely, not getting attached to a "doer" behind it. Of course this is 
exactly the logic behind any activity from the perspective of 
Prajnaparamita, and I do not disagree with you een a little bit on 
this point. 

What I have been addressing, mainly, is not putting the cart before 
the horse. There has to be kusala in place, first, before panna is 
even remotely possible. It really is a requirement. That people can 
become attached to kusala, to me, represents a far less risky 
proposition than going full-bore into the wisdom teachings and trying 
to skip the dualistic realities of the Dhamma that distinguishes 
between conventional phenomena based on their caharacteristics.

It is what I perceive as a lack of balance that I am questioning. And 
really, what's the worst that can happen if you diligently strive to 
cultivate kusala states of mind and fail in awakening to supramundane 
insight in this lifetime? I think the result is far better than 
failing at BOTH kusala AND insight! At least if there is a large 
stock of merit, then the conditions will certainly arise to come into 
contact with the Dharma later on, and one will additionally encounter 
toall the conditions necessary to practice the wisdom aspect of the 
Dhamma to bring it to fruition.

 
5191 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 0:13am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> 
> Joyce Short writes:
> 
> > the Dhammapada is good to read....
> > ============
>        You wrote: "... all I can honestly say is that I don't
> know anything 
> at all.[joyce]" In that case, I'd say you've made great
progress!!

I'd like to second that.  Some very good points you've made
tonight in your posts tonight,  Joyce .
welcome back
robert   


 
5192 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:26am
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.

 
  > 
> You bring up the idea that Robert mentioned, the notion that it is 
> quite possible to become attached to kusala. I think it is very
> important to be aware of what both yourself and Robert mention,
> namely, not getting attached to a "doer" behind it. Of course this is
> exactly the logic behind any activity from the perspective of
> Prajnaparamita, and I do not disagree with you een a little bit on
> this point.
>
> What I have been addressing, mainly, is not putting the cart before
> the horse.

Joyce:I realize that I have probably leaped into the middle of the
conversation.

>There has to be kusala in place, first, before panna is
> even remotely possible. It really is a requirement.

Joyce: I can only speak from limited experience, which at the moment is
functioning memory. So some thoughts that appear....

"Kusala" for a beginning practitioner of Buddhism is already present because
this precious human body has been obtained and then our encounter with
Dharma. And anyone new to Buddhism shouldnt go off thinking, "O she said I
didnt have to address unwholesome mind" -as there would still be someone
reacting this way which is the essential existential situation still
unaddressed.  (smile) It is good to investigate and SEE if there is a "doer"
- we don't take it forgranted that there isn't.  Major instruction! We don;t
even take the idea of "ignorance" as more than a given.  In those moments of
our life when we are total in any moment with anything -and we all have
known this -there is no "ignorance".  Here in this moment of awareness,
ignorance isn't.

So  -in the beginning, of course one builds the foundation of the house of
practice, the meaningful life through an application of the basic teachings
which is basic sanity.  What we call wholesome, is a way of living
harmoniously and interdependently -thus mind is not in a fret and one has
the calm and maturity needed to have a deeper look into what one calls life.
Important in the understanding of "kusala" is "motivation", why are we doing
what we are doing?

When one first encounters suffering, one can see that it arises out of
dualism, somehow  -me, mine, yours, etc. A lot of suffering comes out of the
mistaken identification that it, and every object, belongs to some object
called "me", and this then is easily misunderstood to mean that "I" am bad,
somehow "my" life is not wholesome (actually generating negative mindstate).
And, Im unhappy because Im unwhoesome but when Im wholesome then Ill be
happy. So  -Im not saying that it is not important to cultivate wholesome
states, but to recognize that these are states -and then to continually look
into the relationship between these states, (even the "good" ones are
impermanent) and see if they belong to anyone. A human can be engaged in
very wholesome activities and still be a suffering being.  "Wholesomeness"
has the same characteristics as any other state.  "My life is wholesome" is
still delusional and partial.

Striving to diligentily attain wholesome states can arise out of the
unwholesome states of hatred, greed and delusion.  Aversion to what is
unwholesome ( an idea/concept/fiction/fabrication of what is unwholesome) is
still cultivating aversion. Greed for wholesomeness or some enlighted state
to be attained in some future time is still greed (and delusion).  The only
purity possible is in this very moment, where there is no state, and no
personality grasping at it. And no one present to catagorize any appearance
as wholesome or otherwise.  I suspect that a lot of thinking about
wholesomeness, or this or that, is a pleasant diversion from being totally
present now. I have myself experienced terror here, and have often divereted
-until could totally and completely allow terror and the knowing of terror,
which turns out to be the same as everything else.  joke on "me".

All that being said, within the relativity of our usual patterns, we
cultivate that which is wholesome and compassionate  -may all sentient
beings be free, may they be happy and free from the causes of suffering.  If
one kept this one thought in mind only, then this would be enough to lead
one home to the actual reality where all sentient beings ARE free.  One
would follow this thought into the present spaciousness of its origination
-but any thought would do.

So, drop the "s" off the word sentient "being"  -and chose freedom for all
that arises  -since it arises anyway, impersonal and uncontrollable. Looked
at this way, one might see hate, greed, delusion etc, as sentient being.
But, one does not permit acting out on others from these state -so what to
do?  Purify?  Well, the more one sees, the more welcoming there is to
anything arising, since it will arise anyway, sees that what arises is
uncontrollable and impersonal, the more purification just naturally happens,
as there is less clinging.  This becomes effortless.  All the noting is
always after the fact, so, its already happened, rather too late to purify.
Still, one can see the appearance and the knowing of it arising together and
dissolving together into silence  -and thats all there is.  Knowing
dissolves into Knowing.

Now - if one sees Buddhist thought as a rather large house, one can look out
and see the View from many windows.  One of the Views in Tibetan Buddhism
looks out upon the environment of body-mind continuum and sees even
unwholesome states such as anger, as the arising of intrinsic nature as its
expression.   Left alone, just seen, this "liberates" just goes naturally,
everything does.  Just observation. This is rather fine because it gives one
an inkling that enlightenment -or the experience of being the Whole and not
just one of its parts, is not so far away. As in mindfulness, one steps back
from identifying with anything and practices another way of seeing and
encountering any appearance  -as simply the expression of energy,
consciousness and is not "Mine" or "me". And sees the contraction of
identification when it occurs and those momoments of selflessness expansion
when it occurs, kind of like the flow of the tides.  This brings the same
relief and peace as insight - and the relaxation coming from insight frees
the tight fisted contraction of ego that lives as object separate from other
objects.  Thus, one is compassionate towards all appearances as they are
welcomed and not judged. The mirror of knowing just reflects whatever
appears. I think the approach is that all sentient beings are to be free,
not reformed.

But, all this is general, send me something "unwholesome" and we could
examine this.  Im pretty simpled minded and need small examples and simple
language.  I have heard that simply maintaining the aspiration to
enlightenment in mind at all times and places is also brings find results -
dropping the craving for results also is fine  we are always only one
thought away from "home."  Things like "supramundane" are mental tricks, as
are all conceptualizations.  Nothing mundane here.  It's all super - (smile)

All thought now rapidly dissolving back into haven't a clue.  Many thanks if
you have waded patiently through all this. It was just a guess.

Metta,

Joyce






That people can
> become attached to kusala, to me, represents a far less risky
> proposition than going full-bore into the wisdom teachings and trying
> to skip the dualistic realities of the Dhamma that distinguishes
> between conventional phenomena based on their caharacteristics.
>
> It is what I perceive as a lack of balance that I am questioning. And
> really, what's the worst that can happen if you diligently strive to
> cultivate kusala states of mind and fail in awakening to supramundane
> insight in this lifetime? I think the result is far better than
> failing at BOTH kusala AND insight! At least if there is a large
> stock of merit, then the conditions will certainly arise to come into
> contact with the Dharma later on, and one will additionally encounter
> toall the conditions necessary to practice the wisdom aspect of the
> Dhamma to bring it to fruition.

 
5193 From: Howard 
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 5:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. (mine or yours)

 
  Hi, Joyce -

In a message dated 5/9/01 3:19:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joyce Short 
writes:


> BTW, what's the source of the poem you quote? It's lovely.
> 
> Yes, of course, perfectly lovely  -it's from the Dhammapada.
> 
> 
=========================
       Hah! ;-)) That would, of course, be appropriate given what we had been 
discussing. I just don't recall it.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5194 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 6:20am
Subject: Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Hello dear list members,

    By way of introduction I am a 54 year old male, living on the East Coast 
of the United States, interested in Buddhdharma. In the past year I ahve 
become aware of some of the resources on the Internet, including the 
wonderful world of lists.
    I am a newcomer to this particular list, having recently stumbled across 
it due to a comment someone made on another list.  A few years ago I read one 
of Nina van Gorkom's books.  But it is only in the past couple of months that 
an interest has begun in actually studying Abdhidamma. Lacking the education 
to use the correct technical terms, I will have to phrase my question in 
everyday language.
    I have long been confused about the role of intention and effort given 
the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the teaching that ther is no 
"self" that can control one's progress on the path of truth.  Finding the 
path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of the teachings, deepening 
one's study, and adhering to the path all depend upon conditions and are not 
in the direct control of a self that can "make" one do any of the above.
    Still, it seems that effort and intention play a role in the process. The 
Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and its cessation as the 
gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an intention to end one's 
suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a desire, but unlike 
ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as one glimpses the truth 
that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.
    So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a little confused.  Perhaps 
this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one.  Hopefully someone can 
clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about metta with the intention to 
have metta, it shows the clinging to self again."  What is meant by this?
    If one starts with the desire to end suffering, as the Buddha suggests, 
and realizes that the path includes the accumulation of wisom *and* merit, 
including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind such as metta, then 
wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to promote the arising of metta?  
One could think that reading the sutta, contemplating it, etc. could provide 
conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of course, one cannot *make* 
metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at times) be unskillful to turn to 
sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an unpleasant state of mind 
that is arising. 
    Or to take another example--dana.  One engages in the physical act of 
giving but becomes aware that a mental state of generosity may not be 
arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by second-thoughts, 
regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this process.  One cannot *make* 
generosity arise.  Nevertheless, the act of giving is preferable to 
non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate generosity still seems to 
have some place in the process of the path, does it not?
    I would presume that the point is not to forego sutta reading, or acts of 
generosity.  Do you feel sutta reading is a good activity if done with 
correct understanding, not expecting it to be like putting a coin in a 
machine and getting a candy in return?

Paul Bail
    
----------------
Sarah wrote:
> now if we understand the difference between kusala and
> akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we
> open a sutta about metta with the intention to have
> metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> understanding is always the key, so there can be
> understanding of metta when it arises naturally by
> conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed,
> not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object
> like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> more discussion about breath as object of samatha.

 
5195 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 11:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Dear Paul,
welcome to the group. I hope you'll be a regular contributor.
--- Paul Bail wrote:
> Hello dear list members,
> 
>     I have long been confused about the role of intention and
> effort given 
> the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the teaching that
> ther is no 
> "self" that can control one's progress on the path of truth. 
> Finding the 
> path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of the
> teachings, deepening 
> one's study, and adhering to the path all depend upon
> conditions and are not 
> in the direct control of a self that can "make" one do any of
> the above.
>     Still, it seems that effort and intention play a role in
> the process. The 
> Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and its
> cessation as the 
> gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an intention
> to end one's 
> suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a desire,
> but unlike 
> ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as one
> glimpses the truth 
> that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.
____________
It is true that  in the begiining we are drenched in wrongview
and desire. And if the deconstruction, as you call it, happens
then this is pared away. However, I would say many buddhists do
not get to see the right path. And this is because they do not
come to see that the heart of the Dhamma is conditionality and
anatta. The path - the eightfold path- really begins as
investigation into the conditioned nature of phenomena happens. 
_________


>     So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a little
> confused.  Perhaps 
> this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one. 
> Hopefully someone can 
> clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about metta with
> the intention to 
> have metta, it shows the clinging to self again."  What is
> meant by this?
>     If one starts with the desire to end suffering, as the
> Buddha suggests, 
> and realizes that the path includes the accumulation of wisom
> *and* merit, 
> including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind such as
> metta, then 
> wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to promote the
> arising of metta?  
> One could think that reading the sutta, contemplating it, etc.
> could provide 
> conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of course, one
> cannot *make* 
> metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at times) be
> unskillful to turn to 
> sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an unpleasant
> state of mind 
> that is arising. 
>     Or to take another example--dana.  One engages in the
> physical act of 
> giving but becomes aware that a mental state of generosity may
> not be 
> arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by
> second-thoughts, 
> regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this process.  One
> cannot *make* 
> generosity arise.  Nevertheless, the act of giving is
> preferable to 
> non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate generosity
> still seems to 
> have some place in the process of the path, does it not?
>     I would presume that the point is not to forego sutta
> reading, or acts of 
> generosity.  Do you feel sutta reading is a good activity if
> done with 
> correct understanding, not expecting it to be like putting a
> coin in a 
> machine and getting a candy in return?
___________________________________________

Well, what you say is the sort of careful considring that is
directly supportive of direct wisdom Paul. Of course sutta study
and acts of generosity are encouraged here. In fact there is a
whole book by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (who sarah presumably got
this comment from) called METTA. And in thailand there are
detailed sets of tapes by her about the development of metta.
These are well worth listening to.
The point is, perhaps, that a lot of people have intention and
effort but still don't get to see. Some study much, listen to
khun sujin's radio program for years, but still don't really
understand the actual characteristic of metta. If we listen just
a little but then learn to distingusih metta from attachment it
can be developed more and more, even if we don't read the
suttas. And this is what is most crucial - knowing metta as it
is.
Understanding anatta is like a shortcut to developing metta
because then when someone does something damaging automatically
there can arise consideration of dhammas - as  simply evanescent
khandas. NOT 'me' being hurt; and nobody doing bad either. Thus
metta for the concept of a person arises without trouble. There
is so much to say about all this but I can see you are thinking
well already and will be an asset here.
robert

> 
> Paul Bail
>     
> ----------------
> Sarah wrote:
> > now if we understand the difference between kusala and
> > akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we
> > open a sutta about metta with the intention to have
> > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> > understanding is always the key, so there can be
> > understanding of metta when it arises naturally by
> > conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed,
> > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object
> > like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> > more discussion about breath as object of samatha.



 
5196 From: Num 
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 8:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Hi Paul,

My name is Num,  I just logged on to check my mail real quick. Welcome to the 
dsg.

<<The post says: "If we open a sutta about metta with the intention to 
have metta, it shows the clinging to self again."  What is meant by this?>>

My understanding, as a layman, is Metta will happen with right causes and 
conditions.  Usually intention to have more Metta is accompanied by subtle 
form of clinging, wanting or attachment.  I can say that I would like to have 
 metta all day and night tomorrow, I can write down my plan in a resolution.  
Intention alone is not a right condition for Metta to arise.  As Robert said, 
if we have right understanding, less attachment and clinging, Metta will 
happen because of ripen condition.  Not my metta, no regret of why we did not 
do that.  

Nothing wrong with desire to end suffering, but the bottom line is we cannot 
end suffering with clinging/wanting/desiring or denying suffering.  
Wisdom/Panna/right understanding is the harbinger of the path, not desire.

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on the list. They can give you better 
explanation.  

Be patient, sutta reading is not a candy machine :)

Num

 
5197 From: Num 
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 8:34am
Subject: another cetasika question

 
  Hi Sarah and all,

This a follow-up for cetasika question.  What is the difference between 
ekaggata and manasikara cetasika??

You mentioned about phassa cetasika, I don't know where to look for a 
detailed explanation.  

........................

In Milinda-panha book II, page 92 R.Davids 1925

Reverend Sir, what is the distinguishing characteristic of contact (phassa)?
Touch, O king.
But give me an illustration.
It is as when two rams are butting together, O king.  The eye should be 
regarded as one of those two, the form (object) as the other, and the contact 
as the union of the two.
Give me further explanation
It is as when the two cymbals are clashed together. The one is as the eye, 
the other as the object, and the junction of the two is like contact.
Very good Nagasena.
.......................................

Phassa is also listed as a ahara-paccaya, phassahara b/c without phassa, both 
citta and other cetasika cannot experience any object.  So there cannot be 
citta without phassa.

Have to go back to finish my work.

Appreciate,

Num

 
5198 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:24pm
Subject: Re: notes from Bkk

 
  Dear Sarah,

Anumoddhana for your efforts to take notes!

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  > 
5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa is
> a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin
> colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these be
> explained when kamma can cause only the kammaja-rupa?
> KS's answer was that these fall under cakkhuppasada
> rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja rupa.
> Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa.

What I have heard before is that cakkhuppasada rupa only rises in t the 
middle (which middle?) of your eyes.    The hair definitely has no 
Cakkhupasada.   On the other hands, there are plenty of Kayapasada rupa 
everywhere, except, of course, for those Kalapa that is not Kayapasda 
kalapa (Cakkhupasada kalapa doesn't have kayapasda rupa, and neither 
do other rupas rising from other Samuthana).  

I would appreciate it if you clarify...

kom

 
5199 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: notes from Bkk

 
  Dear Num & Kom,

Thanks very much for picking this up....I've made a
mistake which I need to re-think. Cakkhuppasada rupa
is eyebase and not visible object for a start (we had
another long chat about cakkhuppasada rupa and I got
them mixed up.) I'm too busy to give this and all the
other good pts and qus and comments attention
now...but am very happy that the notes have triggered
off so many interesting discussions!!

pls be patient and we'll see if between us we can
'figure this out' better! It certainly needs
clarification (read serious correction) and I'll do my
best having got into some hot water here!

Thanks again,

Sarah

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear
Sarah,
> 
> Anumoddhana for your efforts to take notes!
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott
>  > 
> 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa
> is
> > a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin
> > colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these
> be
> > explained when kamma can cause only the
> kammaja-rupa?
> > KS's answer was that these fall under
> cakkhuppasada
> > rupa (visible object), the first of the kammaja
> rupa.
> > Every kalapa of rupa includes cakkhuppasada rupa.
> 
> What I have heard before is that cakkhuppasada rupa
> only rises in t the 
> middle (which middle?) of your eyes.    The hair
> definitely has no 
> Cakkhupasada.   On the other hands, there are plenty
> of Kayapasada rupa 
> everywhere, except, of course, for those Kalapa that
> is not Kayapasda 
> kalapa (Cakkhupasada kalapa doesn't have kayapasda
> rupa, and neither 
> do other rupas rising from other Samuthana).  
> 
> I would appreciate it if you clarify...
> 
> kom


 
5200 From: Antony 
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 1:57pm
Subject: Re: uprooting your kilesa?

 
  I guess rare are those who SEE without a teacher to give them some 
idea of how to see.

The reality of these things is in the practice and the experience I 
think. So only few people either stumble across it or have the 
conditions to recognise these things as they form. So a teacher is 
useful, if not critical. 

There is a saying I have come to like, it is this: That suttas are 
not for reading, they are for practicing with. The Buddha taught what 
should be implemented. Suttas are not novels.  They are great stories 
but that is a limited understanding and almost a waste. I always 
think though that the reading of them is better than not reading 
them, not withstanding the possible danger of misunderstanding. As 
we've seen lately on our list here the mind states that assumptions 
about ourselves and the dhamma can generate can make us downright 
rude.

I love the Zen saying "only don't know" I don't say I know for sure, 
that's why I am here, to be in cybersangha with the wise, as the 
Buddha suggests, it is one of the causes of happiness. 

I'll think of something to say about the Gihi Sutta.

antony


--- Jonothan Abbott wrote:
> Antony
> 
> --- Antony wrote:
> > It always seems to me that Buddha taught many different people 
> > different things. 
> 
> I'm sure this is exactly right.  And it is often not apparent from 
a 
> casual reading of a sutta who the listeners were or what their 
> particular circumstances might have been.  Yet this is all 
necessary 
> stuff if we are to understand the sutta properly.  For example, if 
a 
> sutta about samatha was addressed to monks who were already well 
> established in samatha, or in mindfulness (or both), that would have
> a 
> bearing on how we 'read' that teaching.  That is why an fairly 
> extensive knowledge of the suttas (and the other pitakas) is
> necessary 
> in order to understand any part of the teachings.
> 
> > It might be the case that as you say that tranquility  is not 
> > neccesary. I would think that could be true. It seems to be that
> the 
> > Buddha used it though. That says to me that it must be useful to 
a 
> > high degree.
> 
> That is indeed true.  Samatha (tranquillity) is kusala of a very 
high 
> degree, and is of course to be encouraged.  But it should not be 
> confused with satipatthana or vipassana.  And like satipatthana and 
> vipassana, it is not easy to understand and therefore not easy to 
> develop.  Samatha cannot be developed without a precise 
understanding 
> of whether the citta (moment of consciousness) is kusala or 
akusala.  
> One who develops satipatthana will also be able to develop samatha.
> 
> > There are teachings of Buddha where he details the recollections, 
> > Buddhagosa uses the sutras in the Vissudhimagga. 
> 
> In the introductory part of Visuddhimagga there is an interesting 
> passage which shows just how necessary it is to have a proper 
command 
> of the whole teachings in order to see clearly the message that the 
> Buddha was trying to deliver, and how easy it would be to 
misconstrue 
> what is being said.  At Vis.I,6 it says -
> 
> "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight 
> alone, according as it is said: 
> `Formations are all impermanent: 
> `When he sees thus with understanding 
> `And turns away from what is ill, 
> `That is the path to purity'  (Dh. 277).
> 
> And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is 
> said: 
> `He is near unto nibbana 
> `In whom are jhana and understanding'  (Dh. 372). 
> 
> And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it 
> is said: 
> `By deeds, vision and righteousness, 
> `By virtue, the sublimest life � 
> `By these are mortals purified, 
> `And not by lineage and wealth'   (M.iii,262) 
>   
> And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: 
> `He who is possessed of constant virtue, 
> `Has understanding, and is concentrated, 
> `Is strenuous and diligent as well, 
> `Will cross the flood so difficult to cross'   (S.i, 53). 
> 
> And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., 
> according as it is said: 
> `Bhikkhus, this path is the only way for the purification of
> beings, . 
> . . for the realization of nibbana, that is to say, the four 
> Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the
> case of 
> the right efforts, and so on.  But in the answer to this question 
it 
> is taught by virtue and the other two."
> [ends]
> 
> It would be easy, taking any one of those quotes on its own, to 
come 
> away with a wrong idea of the teaching.  Nothing is as
> straightforward 
> as it seems!
> 
> Jon
> 
> PS  Would like to discuss your al

 
5201 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 2:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Dear Paul,

I'm very glad you've found your way here and you've
opened with a very helpful intro and THE important
question....thankyou very much for raising it and we
look forward to hearing a lot more from you. 

The last few days have been pretty quiet and now there
are lots of really good points and comments and
questions to respond to by anyone....I'll try myself
to get back on this and others as soon as I have some
precious time!

Joyce, also good to see you back in great form! I
especially appreciated the questions to Erik in your
first post ;-))

Speak soon,
Sarah



--- Paul Bail wrote: > Hello dear list
members,
> 
>     By way of introduction I am a 54 year old male,
> living on the East Coast 
> of the United States, interested in Buddhdharma. In
> the past year I ahve 
> become aware of some of the resources on the
> Internet, including the 
> wonderful world of lists.
>     I am a newcomer to this particular list, having
> recently stumbled across 
> it due to a comment someone made on another list.  A
> few years ago I read one 
> of Nina van Gorkom's books.  But it is only in the
> past couple of months that 
> an interest has begun in actually studying
> Abdhidamma. Lacking the education 
> to use the correct technical terms, I will have to
> phrase my question in 
> everyday language.
>     I have long been confused about the role of
> intention and effort given 
> the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the
> teaching that ther is no 
> "self" that can control one's progress on the path
> of truth.  Finding the 
> path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of
> the teachings, deepening 
> one's study, and adhering to the path all depend
> upon conditions and are not 
> in the direct control of a self that can "make" one
> do any of the above.
>     Still, it seems that effort and intention play a
> role in the process. The 
> Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and
> its cessation as the 
> gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an
> intention to end one's 
> suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a
> desire, but unlike 
> ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as
> one glimpses the truth 
> that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.
>     So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a
> little confused.  Perhaps 
> this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one.
>  Hopefully someone can 
> clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about
> metta with the intention to 
> have metta, it shows the clinging to self again." 
> What is meant by this?
>     If one starts with the desire to end suffering,
> as the Buddha suggests, 
> and realizes that the path includes the accumulation
> of wisom *and* merit, 
> including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind
> such as metta, then 
> wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to
> promote the arising of metta?  
> One could think that reading the sutta,
> contemplating it, etc. could provide 
> conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of
> course, one cannot *make* 
> metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at times)
> be unskillful to turn to 
> sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an
> unpleasant state of mind 
> that is arising. 
>     Or to take another example--dana.  One engages
> in the physical act of 
> giving but becomes aware that a mental state of
> generosity may not be 
> arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by
> second-thoughts, 
> regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this
> process.  One cannot *make* 
> generosity arise.  Nevertheless, the act of giving
> is preferable to 
> non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate
> generosity still seems to 
> have some place in the process of the path, does it
> not?
>     I would presume that the point is not to forego
> sutta reading, or acts of 
> generosity.  Do you feel sutta reading is a good
> activity if done with 
> correct understanding, not expecting it to be like
> putting a coin in a 
> machine and getting a candy in return?
> 
> Paul Bail
>     
> ----------------
> Sarah wrote:
> > now if we understand the difference between kusala
> and
> > akusala. It is important to know the intention. If
> we
> > open a sutta about metta with the intention to
> have
> > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> > understanding is always the key, so there can be
> > understanding of metta when it arises naturally by
> > conditions. This is the way that samtha is
> developed,
> > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an
> object
> > like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> > more discussion about breath as object of samatha.



5202 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 3:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tanha(JIM ,sarah)

 
  Dear Jim, Rob and Wyn,

Just a real quickie which may be quite
off-track...Like Rob, I'm keen to pursue this tanha!

> --- Jim Anderson  wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> > 
> > While checking several versions of the commentary
> on A ii 146
> > I noticed a
> > possible error in the following translated
> section:
> > 
> > >Now
> > >(it may be asked) whether such present craving
> (for
> > Arahantship)
> > >is wholesome [kusala] or unwholesome [akusala]? �
> It is
> > >unwholesome.
> > 
> > The answer - unwholesome (akusalaa) is supported
> by the PTS
> > and the
> > Burmese CSCD versions but not by the Thai Budsir
> version which
> > has
> > 'kusalaa' as the answer. The footnote in the PTS
> edition notes
> > that a
> > Mandalay ms. and the Siamese ed. of 1920 reads
> 'kusalaa'. This
> > is quite
> > interesting as it is a discrepancy that can easily
> go
> > unnoticed. My gut
> > feeling is that 'kusalaa' is the correct answer.
> It is
> > contrary to dhamma to
> > state that the unwholesome is to be pursued
> (sevitabba) as in
> > the reading of
> > the PTS ed. (AA iii 136). 

Just assuming for now that akusalaa is correct (my gut
feeling for now!). When it says in the commentary 'It
is unwholesome.-Should it be pursued or not? - it
SHOULD be pursued (sevitabbaa)...' ,is it possible
that sevitabbaa refers not to the tanha but to the
wisdom in the passage I quoted before: 

'Sister, as to the saying: "This body has come into
being through craving, is dependent on craving; 
craving must be abandoned,"- it was said in this
connexion.

Herein, sister, a monk hears it said: "They say that
such and such a monk, by destroying the asavas,
himself in this very life thoroughly comprehending it,
realizes the heart's release, the release by wisdom,
that is free from the asavas, and having attained it
abides therein." then some time later, though
dependent on craving, he abandons craving.  As to the
saying, sister, that body has come into being through
craving, is dependent on craving, craving must be
abandoned, - whatever was said thus was said in this
connexion.'

We also know that
> 'ta.nhaa' can be
> > either
> > wholesome or unwholesome from the Nettippakara.na
> passage (p.
> > 87).
> > 
> > I suppose that most of us had been thinking that
> 'ta.nhaa' is
> > 'lobha' in the
> > paramattha terminology but could it be something
> else --
> > 'chanda'??

If one looks at all the refs to tanha in the Vism and
Vibhanga, this still seems unlikely to me...eben if
they are related to nekkhamma, if they are akusala
they are akusala..
> > 
> > I also glanced through three layers of commentary
> on the
> > Nettippakara.na
> > passage regarding  the twofold ta.nhaa which have
> quite a lot
> > to say about
> > it. I didn't study them as there is just too much
> to take in
> > (1 or 2 pages
> > altogether) without spending a lot of time. This
> is just to
> > let you know
> > that the comments are there.

slowly, slowly, Jim!

Thanks for your comments as always,

Sarah

(Joyce, pls note that apart from Jim and Teng Kee and
one or two others, none of us are Pali or Sanskrit
scholars....;-))



 
5203 From: Ai Lin Edwards   
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 8:19pm
Subject: Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  Hello everybody,

I am AiLin here, Eric (I know him as Sam A. Vacca at other forums)directed 
me here. Thanks Eric, I eventually get through to this site.

I am a Chinese Buddhist, practising Vipassana for about ten years now. I am 
from Malaysia and get my first taste of vipassana under Rev. Sujiva (late 
Mahasi Sayadaw's lineage). I do my self-study on buddha dhamma whenever I 
can. I reside in Australia right now and a regular at both Roshi Hogen's and 
Edepot Buddhist Discussion Forum.

I like what I see here, and will visit very often from now on.

I have not much to offer right now, but find useful information here and 
much to chew on. I'll try to read back all previous posts and hopefully get 
some answers to my questions in my mind. I'll raise further questions to old 
discussion topic if you people don't mind.

My warmest regards to everybody here.

Sincerely,

AiLin

 
5204 From: Howard 
Date: Thu May 10, 2001 7:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Hi, Paul and Sarah -

In a message dated 5/10/01 7:52:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Paul Bail writes:


> Hello dear list members,
> 
>     By way of introduction I am a 54 year old male, living on the East 
> Coast 
> of the United States, interested in Buddhdharma. In the past year I ahve 
> become aware of some of the resources on the Internet, including the 
> wonderful world of lists.
>     I am a newcomer to this particular list, having recently stumbled 
> across 
> it due to a comment someone made on another list.  A few years ago I read 
> one 
> of Nina van Gorkom's books.  But it is only in the past couple of months 
> that 
> an interest has begun in actually studying Abdhidamma. Lacking the 
> education 
> to use the correct technical terms, I will have to phrase my question in 
> everyday language.
>     I have long been confused about the role of intention and effort given 
> the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the teaching that ther is no 
> "self" that can control one's progress on the path of truth.  Finding the 
> path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of the teachings, deepening 
> one's study, and adhering to the path all depend upon conditions and are 
> not 
> in the direct control of a self that can "make" one do any of the above.
>     Still, it seems that effort and intention play a role in the process. 
> The 
> Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and its cessation as the 
> gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an intention to end one's 
> suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a desire, but unlike 
> ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as one glimpses the truth 
> that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.
>     So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a little confused.  
> Perhaps 
> this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one.  Hopefully someone can 
> clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about metta with the intention 
> to 
> have metta, it shows the clinging to self again."  What is meant by this?
>     If one starts with the desire to end suffering, as the Buddha suggests, 
> and realizes that the path includes the accumulation of wisom *and* merit, 
> including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind such as metta, then 
> wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to promote the arising of 
> metta?  
> One could think that reading the sutta, contemplating it, etc. could 
> provide 
> conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of course, one cannot *make* 
> metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at times) be unskillful to turn 
> to 
> sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an unpleasant state of mind 
> that is arising. 
>     Or to take another example--dana.  One engages in the physical act of 
> giving but becomes aware that a mental state of generosity may not be 
> arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by second-thoughts, 
> regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this process.  One cannot 
> *make* 
> generosity arise.  Nevertheless, the act of giving is preferable to 
> non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate generosity still seems to 
> have some place in the process of the path, does it not?
>     I would presume that the point is not to forego sutta reading, or acts 
> of 
> generosity.  Do you feel sutta reading is a good activity if done with 
> correct understanding, not expecting it to be like putting a coin in a 
> machine and getting a candy in return?
> 
> Paul Bail
>     
> ----------------
> Sarah wrote:
> > now if we understand the difference between kusala and
> > akusala. It is important to know the intention. If we
> > open a sutta about metta with the intention to have
> > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> > understanding is always the key, so there can be
> > understanding of metta when it arises naturally by
> > conditions. This is the way that samtha is developed,
> > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an object
> > like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> > more discussion about breath as object of samatha.
> 
> 
=================================
       I agree with you, Paul. I found myself perplexed with regard to 
several points of Khun Sujin's reported by you, Sarah. It seems to me that 
what KS is talking against, and you, Paul, are talking in favor of, would 
usually be considered as a simple instance of right intention. KS *seems* to 
me to be following a bit of a fatalistic, volition-is-useless tack. Perhaps I 
miss-read her.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5205 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 6:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk

 
  WARNING: lots of pali and fiddly abhidhamma points
here. If you wish to skip, pls do!

Dear Kom and Num,

I'm giving this point priority because of my
carelessness and also because it's a tricky area for
me and I wish to clarify it for myself too. Some other
areas were discussed for an hour or so, but this one
for a couple of minutes only. I'd planned to follow up
on the last day, but it wasn't appropriate and so I'm
looking at texts to help me along too.

> 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa
> is
> a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin
> colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these
> be
> explained when kamma can cause only the
> kammaja-rupa?

As this question relates to an earlier post of Num's
(which I don't think was answered, hence my
consideration of it), for newbies, I'll requote
extracts from Num's (but just his first question for
now!) and then add some extra details. It may be a
little long for some!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
NUM wrote (24th April):

Here is a quote from Dhammastudy.com

<<<<<<<<<<<

Kammaja-rupa
There are 9 rupa that arise specifically from kamma as
samutthana, never from 
other samutthana:

1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa 2. Sotappasada-rupa 3.
Ghanappasada-rupa 4. 
Jivhappasada-rupa 5. Kayappasada-rupa 6.
Itthibhava-rupa 7. Purisabhava-rupa  
     
8. Hadaya-rupa 9. Jivitindriya-rupa

.......................................................

I don't think kamma is a paccaya for outer rupas,
sound, smell, flavor 
hard-soft-heat-cold-tension and color are pretty much
utuja-rupa, rupa that 
arise from utu as samutthana.

I still doubt that which rupa is a result of kamma.
Here are my questions.

QUES. 1. Is hair, eye, or skin color is result of
kamma.  Or when it's said 
that to be born with good looking appearance is a
result of kamma.  If kamma 
can be cause of only 9 kammaja-rupa as above, how you
explain it?   In 
tipitaka, there repeatedly mentioned about praise for
skin color, I wonder is 
that result of kamma or just plain genetics or
something else.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sarah again:

I think the main point to remember is that whatever
rupa arises, there have to be the 4 great elements and
the 4 derived rupas (visible object, odour, flavour
and nutrition) as well. 

Now I'm quoting from KS's 'Survey of Paramatha
Dhammas' from Zolag website http://www.zolag.co.uk/
in Appendix 111: to Rupa:
=================================================

'The nine types of kammaja r�pas are derived r�pas,
up�d�ya r�pas, which have to arise together with the
eight inseparable r�pas, avinibbhoga r�pas. There are
the following groups or kal�pas originated from kamma:

1. the decad of the eyesense, cakkhudasaka  kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, eyesense
and life faculty.
2. the decad of earsense, sotadasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, earsense
and life faculty.
3. the decad of smellingsense, gh�nadasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas,
smellingsense and life faculty.
4. the decad of tastingsense, jivh�dasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas,
tastingsense and life faculty. 
5. the decad of bodysense, k�yadasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, bodysense
and life faculty. 
6. the decad of femininity, itthibh�vadasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, femininity
and life faculty.
7. the decad of masculinity, purisabh�vadasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, masculinity
and life faculty.
8. the decad of heart-base, hadayadasaka kal�pa,
consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, heart-base
and life faculty.
9. the vital nonad, j�vitanavaka  kal�pa, consisting
of the eight inseparable r�pas and life faculty. 

Groups of r�pa originated from kamma arise at the
arising moment, the up�da kha�a, of the
rebirth-consciousness, pa�isandhi- citta, in
accordance with the plane of existence where one is
born. Kamma produces r�pa at the three moments of each
citta, namely, at the arising moment, upp�da kha�a,
the moment of presence, ti��hi kha�a, and the moment
of falling away, bhanga kha�a . Kamma ceases to
produce r�pa shortly before death, that is to say,
from the seventeenth moment of citta reckoned backward
from the dying-consciousness. Thus, all kammajar�pa
falls away together with the dying-consciousness,
cuti-citta, at the end of a lifespan.
For those who are born by way of the womb, in the
human plane of existence, there are three kal�pas of
kammajar�pa, groups of r�pa originated from kamma,
arising together with the rebirth-consciousness. These
three kal�pas are: the decad of heart-base, the decad
of bodysense and the decad of sex. As the newborn
being develops, the kal�pas which are the decads of
the eyesense, the earsense, the smellingsense and the
tastingsense arise at the appropriate time.' 
=====================================================

This detail is  given in the Abhidammattha Sangaha.
Just to clarify on which rupas exactly are produced by
kamma (and to add some textual support!), I'm now
quoting from the B.Bodhi's 'Abhidammattha
Sangaha'V1,10 p.247:

" Eighteen kinds of material phenomena are produced by
kamma; the five sensitivities; the two sex faculties;
the life faculty; the heart-base-arise exclusively
from kamma. The other nine kinds arise from kamma only
when they occur in the kamma-born groups; otherwise
they originate from the other causes".

Num, I hope this last sentence clarifies.

A little further on the AS discusses the 21 material
groups produced by kamma, consciousness, temperature
and nutriment, but I've given enough detail for one
post!

Perhaps I can now correct my original brief summary to
say that what we take for hair, skin colour,
good-looking appearance and the rest are the
kayadasaka kalapa (decad of bodysense) including the 8
inseperable rupas which condition each other and the
bodysense. The kalapa is conditioned by kamma.
According to my recollection of what KS said, vanno
(visible object, NOT cakkhupasada rupa!) is of
significance here. 

As we know, conditions are very complicated. I think I
have to leave it here to Kom (and Jack)!

Hope this helps a little.....

Sarah



5206 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 6:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  Dear Ai Lin,

Warmest regards and welcome to dsg. Eric has been
challenging us all with his debates and has become a
key participant here recently! If you start calling
him Sam, we'll now understand, thank you!! <Eric, the
twins in 'Lord of the Flies' are called Sam 'n Eric,
is this the connection??>

Of course you're very welcome to bring up old
discussion topics or any dhamma topics you like.

Thanks for the other info too...we have a few members
in Malaysia and in Australia. Whereabouts are you
living there? We've lived in Hong Kong for a longtime,
but Jon is from Australia.

Look forward to haring more from you,

Sarah

--- Ai Lin Edwards  wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am AiLin here, Eric (I know him as Sam A. Vacca at
> other forums)directed 
> me here. Thanks Eric, I eventually get through to
> this site.
> 
> I am a Chinese Buddhist, practising Vipassana for
> about ten years now. I am 
> from Malaysia and get my first taste of vipassana
> under Rev. Sujiva (late 
> Mahasi Sayadaw's lineage). I do my self-study on
> buddha dhamma whenever I 
> can. I reside in Australia right now and a regular
> at both Roshi Hogen's and 
> Edepot Buddhist Discussion Forum.
> 
> I like what I see here, and will visit very often
> from now on.
> 
> I have not much to offer right now, but find useful
> information here and 
> much to chew on. I'll try to read back all previous
> posts and hopefully get 
> some answers to my questions in my mind. I'll raise
> further questions to old 
> discussion topic if you people don't mind.
> 
> My warmest regards to everybody here.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> AiLin



 
5207 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Wed May 9, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.

 
  ">Sorry, not a scholar, don't know Pali or Sanskrit.>" [joyce]

But I "know" you. Dharma is universal.

metta,
des




>From: "Joyce Short" 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.
>Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:02:00 -0400
>
>
>
> >> I must disagree with this. It is much better to unload akusala
> >> vipaka
> >> as quickly as possible,
>
>
>Who? is unloading akusala vipaka as quickly as possible?
>
> >> because it vipaka grows in power (and
> >> conditions more kamma of the same variety) the longer it
> >> remains
> >> untreated, like a festering wound gets worse, not better, if
> >> left
> >> uncleaned and bandaged. Therefore one should work very
> >> diligently to
> >> purify any akusala as soon as one becomes aware of its
> >> arising.
>
>Who? is working diligently, becoming aware of its arising etc.  And what is
>arising whatever surely just arises, endures and then dissolves on its own
>accord?  Who is placing a value judgment on any arising and when is this
>judgment noted. Surely all this is occurring after the event?  Is this
>noted? How is one noting "conceptuality" without clinging?
>
>One Tibetan Rinpoche pointed out to me that all arisings when
>recognized,(moment of contact) are an expression of intrinsic nature - its
>energy, purity and intelligence.  In this recognition, then there cannot be
>any duality, any "I" and "mine", the essential akusala.  Is there something
>apart from consciousness? (awareness) Mind can create an object or 
>structure
>called meditator who then notes other objects -but any objects noted are 
>the
>energetic expression of consciousness noted by knowing and not other than
>the meditator construct.
>
>Sorry, not a scholar, don't know Pali or Sanskrit.
>
>Metta,
>
>Joyce


 
5208 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 9:49am
Subject: Re: notes from Bkk

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for following up.  I still don't think K. Num's question was 
answered (unless K. Num says otherwise!).  Let me relate my (private) 
conversation with him on this issue to see if others may have other 
opinion.

My understanding is that each rupa kalapa that we may consider "our" 
rupa has one of the following as samuthana:
1) Kamma 
2) Utu 
3) Ahara
4) Citta 

a) It is exceedingly difficult (impossible for me!) to differentiate among =

these rupas.  For example, when we see the vanna that "is part of" our 
hand, which samuthana does it have?

b) In the human plane, each one of us has only 7 types of kalapas that 
has Kamma as the samuthana.  This counts out the Jivithindriya kalapa 
(even though all other 8 kalapas also have Jivithindriya rupa), and one of =

the Bhava Kalapa (unless you are of two sexes)..

c) Out of the seven, 5 occur at very specific places in our body.  The 5 
includes: eye sense, ear sense, smell sense, taste sense, and hadaya-
rupa.  The other two including Bhava rupa and Kaya-pasada rupa are 
spreaded all over your body, internal and external.

d) The speculation of how Kamma can influence one's look is via the two 
rupas that are spreaded throughout your body.   Although a hair 
probably mostly comprises of Utuja-rupa, but in the beginning when 
there are still "live" cells, its looks may be highly influenced by Kamma-
rupas.  Furthermore, some of the continuing Utuja rupas have, as 
samuthana, the utu rupa that is part of the kamma kalapa.

e) One's look is not influenced by Kamma alone.  For example, Buddha 
is supposed to have unparalleled beauty.  However, when he was going 
through dukkha-kiriya-practice, he ate so little that he was no longer 
beautiful.  His Ahara-ja rupa cancelled out the beauty in the Kammaja-
rupa.  Some people don't look so pretty when they get angry or greedy.  
Some people don't look so pretty when they are cold or hot.

kom
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> WARNING: lots of pali and fiddly abhidhamma points
> here. If you wish to skip, pls do!
> 
> Dear Kom and Num,
> 
> I'm giving this point priority because of my
> carelessness and also because it's a tricky area for
> me and I wish to clarify it for myself too. Some other
> areas were discussed for an hour or so, but this one
> for a couple of minutes only. I'd planned to follow up
> on the last day, but it wasn't appropriate and so I'm
> looking at texts to help me along too.
> 
> > 5. RUPAS (Num's qus). Num said he doubts which rupa
> > is
> > a result of kamma and asked about hair,eye, skin
> > colour etc, good-looking appearance..how can these
> > be
> > explained when kamma can cause only the
> > kammaja-rupa?
> 
> As this question relates to an earlier post of Num's
> (which I don't think was answered, hence my
> consideration of it), for newbies, I'll requote
> extracts from Num's (but just his first question for
> now!) and then add some extra details. It may be a
> little long for some!
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> NUM wrote (24th April):
> 
> Here is a quote from Dhammastudy.com
> 
> <<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Kammaja-rupa
> There are 9 rupa that arise specifically from kamma as
> samutthana, never from 
> other samutthana:
> 
> 1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa 2. Sotappasada-rupa 3.
> Ghanappasada-rupa 4. 
> Jivhappasada-rupa 5. Kayappasada-rupa 6.
> Itthibhava-rupa 7. Purisabhava-rupa  
>      
> 8. Hadaya-rupa 9. Jivitindriya-rupa
> 
> .......................................................
> 
> I don't think kamma is a paccaya for outer rupas,
> sound, smell, flavor 
> hard-soft-heat-cold-tension and color are pretty much
> utuja-rupa, rupa that 
> arise from utu as samutthana.
> 
> I still doubt that which rupa is a result of kamma.
> Here are my questions.
> 
> QUES. 1. Is hair, eye, or skin color is result of
> kamma.  Or when it's said 
> that to be born with good looking appearance is a
> result of kamma.  If kamma 
> can be cause of only 9 kammaja-rupa as above, how you
> explain it?   In 
> tipitaka, there repeatedly mentioned about praise for
> skin color, I wonder is 
> that result of kamma or just plain genetics or
> something else.
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Sarah again:
> 
> I think the main point to remember is that whatever
> rupa arises, there have to be the 4 great elements and
> the 4 derived rupas (visible object, odour, flavour
> and nutrition) as well. 
> 
> Now I'm quoting from KS's 'Survey of Paramatha
> Dhammas' from Zolag website http://www.zolag.co.uk/
> in Appendix 111: to Rupa:
> 
==============================================
===
> 
> 'The nine types of kammaja r�pas are derived r�pas,
> up�d�ya r�pas, which have to arise together with the
> eight inseparable r�pas, avinibbhoga r�pas. There are
> the following groups or kal�pas originated from kamma:
> 
> 1. the decad of the eyesense, cakkhudasaka  kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, eyesense
> and life faculty.
> 2. the decad of earsense, sotadasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, earsense
> and life faculty.
> 3. the decad of smellingsense, gh�nadasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas,
> smellingsense and life faculty.
> 4. the decad of tastingsense, jivh�dasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas,
> tastingsense and life faculty. 
> 5. the decad of bodysense, k�yadasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, bodysense
> and life faculty. 
> 6. the decad of femininity, itthibh�vadasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, femininity
> and life faculty.
> 7. the decad of masculinity, purisabh�vadasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, masculinity
> and life faculty.
> 8. the decad of heart-base, hadayadasaka kal�pa,
> consisting of the eight inseparable r�pas, heart-base
> and life faculty.
> 9. the vital nonad, j�vitanavaka  kal�pa, consisting
> of the eight inseparable r�pas and life faculty. 
> 
> Groups of r�pa originated from kamma arise at the
> arising moment, the up�da kha�a, of the
> rebirth-consciousness, pa�isandhi- citta, in
> accordance with the plane of existence where one is
> born. Kamma produces r�pa at the three moments of each
> citta, namely, at the arising moment, upp�da kha�a,
> the moment of presence, ti��hi kha�a, and the moment
> of falling away, bhanga kha�a . Kamma ceases to
> produce r�pa shortly before death, that is to say,
> from the seventeenth moment of citta reckoned backward
> from the dying-consciousness. Thus, all kammajar�pa
> falls away together with the dying-consciousness,
> cuti-citta, at the end of a lifespan.
> For those who are born by way of the womb, in the
> human plane of existence, there are three kal�pas of
> kammajar�pa, groups of r�pa originated from kamma,
> arising together with the rebirth-consciousness. These
> three kal�pas are: the decad of heart-base, the decad
> of bodysense and the decad of sex. As the newborn
> being develops, the kal�pas which are the decads of
> the eyesense, the earsense, the smellingsense and the
> tastingsense arise at the appropriate time.' 
> 
==============================================
=======
> 
> This detail is  given in the Abhidammattha Sangaha.
> Just to clarify on which rupas exactly are produced by
> kamma (and to add some textual support!), I'm now
> quoting from the B.Bodhi's 'Abhidammattha
> Sangaha'V1,10 p.247:
> 
> " Eighteen kinds of material phenomena are produced by
> kamma; the five sensitivities; the two sex faculties;
> the life faculty; the heart-base-arise exclusively
> from kamma. The other nine kinds arise from kamma only
> when they occur in the kamma-born groups; otherwise
> they originate from the other causes".
> 
> Num, I hope this last sentence clarifies.
> 
> A little further on the AS discusses the 21 material
> groups produced by kamma, consciousness, temperature
> and nutriment, but I've given enough detail for one
> post!
> 
> Perhaps I can now correct my original brief summary to
> say that what we take for hair, skin colour,
> good-looking appearance and the rest are the
> kayadasaka kalapa (decad of bodysense) including the 8
> inseperable rupas which condition each other and the
> bodysense. The kalapa is conditioned by kamma.
> According to my recollection of what KS said, vanno
> (visible object, NOT cakkhupasada rupa!) is of
> significance here. 
> 
> As we know, conditions are very complicated. I think I
> have to leave it here to Kom (and Jack)!
> 
> Hope this helps a little.....
> 
> Sarah
> 

 
5209 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 10:28am
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.

 
  > ">Sorry, not a scholar, don't know Pali or Sanskrit.>" [joyce]
> 
>Des: But I "know" you. Dharma is universal.

Joyce:  How refreshingly simply put, Des! Truly, we know each other in the
knowing. Dharma is as universal as the sun and as open as the sky.

But, some beings prefer to communicate in preferred ways, not in ways
universal, simple or open.  So, there exists the paradox -how to speak the
Truth as one experiences and thus practice Right Speech (not lying)  if the
manner of one's speech annoys others and thus is not Right Speech, ie. the
cause of divisiveness?  (and the cause of arising of akusala in some)

"The way is not in the sky.
The way is in the heart.

All things pass away.
But the awakened awake forever.

You are the lamp
To lighten the way.
Then hurry, hurry.

When your light shines purely
You will not be born,
And you will not die.
    -Dhammapada-

Metta,

Joyce

 
5210 From: Leonardo Neves   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 11:35am
Subject: Fw: [Triplegem] Palm Pilot User.

 
  Hi,

Amara and Robert in special ...

For all of you that like this kind of stuff. I'm loving reading Dhamma texts in this machines

Thank you Darren,
Mettaa,
Leonardo 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Darren Goh 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:02 AM
Subject: [Triplegem] Palm Pilot User.


All, 

With the permission of John from Access to Insight, I converted most 
of the Sutta Pitaka into Palm Pilot format. You can read and study 
sutta on your Palm Pilot now. 

http://www.palicanonanywhere.org/

Please write me if you find any missing links or have any technical 
questions. I would be more than happy to help. 

Thank you, 
Darren






 
5211 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 0:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: [Triplegem] Palm Pilot User.

 
  Thanks leornardo and Darren,
You guys are way more advanced than me on computing. I'll wait
till the next generation of ebook readers comes out and invest
then
robert
--- Leonardo Neves  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Amara and Robert in special ...
> 
> For all of you that like this kind of stuff. I'm loving
> reading Dhamma texts in this machines
> 
> Thank you Darren,
> Mettaa,
> Leonardo 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Darren Goh 
> > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:02 AM
> Subject: [Triplegem] Palm Pilot User.
> 
> 
> All, 
> 
> With the permission of John from Access to Insight, I
> converted most 
> of the Sutta Pitaka into Palm Pilot format. You can read and
> study 
> sutta on your Palm Pilot now. 
> 
> http://www.palicanonanywhere.org/
> 
> Please write me if you find any missing links or have any
> technical 
> questions. I would be more than happy to help. 
> 
> Thank you, 
> Darren
> 


 
5212 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 1:30pm
Subject: Re: pitaka gurudom

 
  Dear Joe,

Sorry for the late response.

--- Joe wrote:
>
> If you reference the Tipitaka on your own, you are then adding a 
> third interpretation to that of the two teachers I used as 
examples. 

Yes, but at the end, I believe it is your understanding that counts 
the most, and not others.  

> My point is exactly this: the Tipitaka means whatever you, or your 
> teacher, decides it means, and that is dependent on your 
> understanding of the language and concepts, not to mention previous 
> conditioning. As a set of texts, the Tipitaka cannot logically be 
> said to exist as a single, uniform truth but rather is a 
theoretical 
> compendium (to leap ahead to Jon's response, in which he says he's 
> not very good at theoretical constructs -- very humble given his 
> demonstrated mastery of them as demonstrated on this list!)

Yes, indeed, without experiencing the realities as they truly are, 
all one knows is theoretical.  My point is that, with all the 
possible different misunderstanding/micha-dithi, one is best to go by 
the most authoritative source for the theoretical understandings.  
After that, one can't do much more than that except experincing the 
realities on one's own.

> The same might be said of one's understanding of the Tipitaka, that 
> panna might be a precondition to understanding the texts. One is 
> making a wager when one accepts the texts to represent sacca-dhamma 
> before panna knows that they represent same.

I think here, Sarah and Roberts would say that theoretical 
understandings and actual discernments of realities can go hand in 
hand, and in fact, re-inforce one another for the development of both 
types of panna.

> 
> > If one understands the truth without being taught, then one
> > can become self-enlightened.  This is the accumulation of
> > sammasam-buddha and paccekha buddha only.  
> 
> Please explain how you know this is be true, other then because you 
> read it in a text. Otherwise you're caught in the same logical 
> loop that I'm trying to work out of. 

Here's one statement that is unprovable unless one is a samma-
sambuddha.  The drawback of disbelieving in it is that it could 
condition lobha toward believing that one may attain self-
enlightenment without the proper studying of realities or without 
guidance from the enlightened ones while the Buddha's sasana still 
exists.  This would be severe micha-dithi if the statement happens to 
be true.  Of course, there are drawbacks if the statement happens to 
be untrue.

> PS Are you a participant in the DSG in Bangkok (the 'real' one, not 
> the 'virtual' one <g>)?

I am located in California.  I have met Tan Ajarn Sujin only once.  I 
have never met any other people in this group (except maybe a few), 
although I have some inklings about what they look, are, sound, or 
taste (we have extensively discussed about brain-tasting..) like 
based on many stories that have been passed around.

kom

 
5213 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk

 
  Hi Num,


--- Num wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> 
> I really appreciate your mail. Thank you for always
> has a follow-up answer 
> and explanation.   I probably have to think about it
> more and more, but I 
> will try to respond and clarify something which is
> still not clear to me.

There's a lot for me to consider and clarify
too...sorry to everyone for delays. Just time for one
of your questions here because it's short:
> 
> <<<<
> 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by
> 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This
> refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own').
> Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take
> them for being something as wrong view has not been
> eradicated.
> >>>>
> 
>  So it does not mean anohet's another person's citta
> or thought and feeling.  
> It still means our own mental processes which think
> of external object??  
> What is the internal object?  I haven't looked up
> for a search for 
> Cheto-pariya-nanna, ability to know and read another
> person's mind.  I just 
> got my notebook back, so I can search it on my Thai
> Tipitaka CDrom.
> 
Right. Satipatthana ALWAYS concerns the awareness of
realities, so when we read about the 'six external
bases', I understand it to refer to awareness of
'one's own' thinking. The concepts being thought about
at that time concern 'outer' beings and objects, other
visible objects, sounds etc.

So the 'six internal objects' refer to awareness of
seeing, visible object and the rest as in:
"Here, O Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and
material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on
both...."

I would think that if there is the ability to know and
read the other's mind that again this is a special
kind of thinking and would again fall under extenal
objects for the purpose of awareness of thinking. But
the latter is guess work!> 
> 
I'll get back on Kom's reply to my other post to you
and to Erik, Paul, Howard after my busy weekend
teaching.

Must go,

Sarah

p.s look forward to more on phassa, vinnana,
manisakara etc later too! Looks like we can keep
pretty busy for this life!


 
5214 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Paul

Welcome to the list from me.

>     I am a newcomer to this particular list, having
> recently stumbled across 
> it due to a comment someone made on another list.  A
> few years ago I read one 
> of Nina van Gorkom's books.  But it is only in the
> past couple of months that 
> an interest has begun in actually studying
> Abdhidamma. Lacking the education 
> to use the correct technical terms, I will have to
> phrase my question in 
> everyday language.

This of course is fine.  There is no requirement here
to use technical terms.  Those who are familiar with
the technical terms use them because it helps reduce
uncertainty.  But all approaches are welcome!

>     I have long been confused about the role of
> intention and effort given 
> the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the
> teaching that ther is no 
> "self" that can control one's progress on the path
> of truth.  Finding the 
> path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of
> the teachings, deepening 
> one's study, and adhering to the path all depend
> upon conditions and are not 
> in the direct control of a self that can "make" one
> do any of the above.
>     Still, it seems that effort and intention play a
> role in the process. The 
> Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and
> its cessation as the 
> gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an
> intention to end one's 
> suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is a
> desire, but unlike 
> ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself as
> one glimpses the truth 
> that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.
>     So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was a
> little confused.  Perhaps 
> this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial one.
>  Hopefully someone can 
> clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about
> metta with the intention to 
> have metta, it shows the clinging to self again." 
> What is meant by this?

You have touched on one of the most difficult parts of
the dhamma to grasp.  I do not pretend to understand
it to any degree.  What follows is what I have read
and heard but only in some instances (ie. the akusala
bits) noted as being the case, for me at least.

I think the point being made here is that the mental
factors of intention and effort that support the
development of understanding of realities are not the
same as intention and effort in the conventional
sense.  They are mental factors that arise with (ie.
accompany) a wholesome moment of consciousness.  They
accompany the wholesome moment of understanding.  The
conditions for their arising include studying the
teachings and reflecting on them, with the right
purpose in mind.

What we identify as intention and effort on our part
is likely to include a goodly dose of attachment or
wrong view of one form or another (this is the part I
can vouch for).  This is a difficult notion to grasp,
I know, but then we are not used to being completely
honest with ourselves.

So intending to do anything that we expect will lead
to more kusala of whatever kind is likely to include a
lot of unwholesome moments that prevent kusala
actually arising, or simply serve to reinforce the
idea of self.  In other words, such intention is not
the condition for the development of kusala. 

None of this means that we should refrain from doing
anything just because we notice attachment or aversion
that was not previously apparent.  But we are better
placed to avoid the danger of mistaking the
unwholesome for wholesome.

I think this is in line with what you say below, which
I substantially agree with.

Hope you find our discussion useful, and I look
forward to hearing more from you.

Jon

>     If one starts with the desire to end suffering,
> as the Buddha suggests, 
> and realizes that the path includes the accumulation
> of wisom *and* merit, 
> including the cultivation of virtuous states of mind
> such as metta, then 
> wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to
> promote the arising of metta?  
> One could think that reading the sutta,
> contemplating it, etc. could provide 
> conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of
> course, one cannot *make* 
> metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at times)
> be unskillful to turn to 
> sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an
> unpleasant state of mind 
> that is arising. 
>     Or to take another example--dana.  One engages
> in the physical act of 
> giving but becomes aware that a mental state of
> generosity may not be 
> arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed by
> second-thoughts, 
> regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this
> process.  One cannot *make* 
> generosity arise.  Nevertheless, the act of giving
> is preferable to 
> non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate
> generosity still seems to 
> have some place in the process of the path, does it
> not?
>     I would presume that the point is not to forego
> sutta reading, or acts of 
> generosity.  Do you feel sutta reading is a good
> activity if done with 
> correct understanding, not expecting it to be like
> putting a coin in a 
> machine and getting a candy in return?
> 
> Paul Bail


 
5215 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 9:10pm
Subject: noting "others" (?)

 
  >> <<<<
>> 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by
>> 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This
>> refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own').
>> Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take
>> them for being something as wrong view has not been
>> eradicated.
>> >>>>
>>
>>  So it does not mean anohet's another person's citta
>> or thought and feeling.
>> It still means our own mental processes which think
>> of external object??

Contemplation of the body, sensations, mind (mental states) and mental
objects (mental contents) are the Four Foundations within "this full fathom
long body."

"Contemplating the body IN the body...the sensations IN the sensations..etc.
What is to be practiced is pure, non-reactive mindfulness i.e. as clear and
full an awareness as possible (ardently and clearly comprehending) of
whatever is present NOW in the area selected for observation, without going
off into a  tangeant into other more or less relevent mental associations
(feelings, thoughts, value judgments, imaginings)  All noted in ones own
body-mind continuum only.

"Fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to
a train of thought connected to the body; fare along contemplating the
sensations in the sensations....the mind in the mind...,metal objects in
mental objects, but do not apply yourself to the train of thought connected
with sensations...the mind...mental objects. -Dantabhumisutta (M.125)When

So  - all investigation is into one's own package of body-mind only.  This
is done ardently, not with a great deal of tension and effort, but
"ardently" in the full meaning of this word.  Think of really being close
enough with the other/object to close the gap and then be one/unity) Clearly
comprehendending - getting the practice really clear. See each arising
really clearly what ever it may be.  What is an "object?" What is mental
content?  And how does one note?  Here one notices keenly, sharply like an
arrow shot to its target. Noting the object AS it occurs.  Thus mind is not
going off into tangental thinking. ie.  noting rising of abdomen  (mental
associating ...."hmm, wonder if Im doing this right? Hmm, breath seems
shallow to day, wonder if Im sick"...and so on) What is happening to the
object one is noting? and so on. Is it staying around? Not?

So, constant awareness, moment to moment, whatever one is doing and with an
interested, alert, welcoming attitude.

Contemplation of "others mental processes" is actually, "imagining,
imagining". Thinking about external objects or internal objects is
"thinking, thinking" the focus of attention is attending here. The purpose
is to gain complete, immediate and direct awareness of all phenomena as they
arise. In this direct awareness the nature of both the phenomena and the
awareness can be seen by the "experiencer".

Thus you will see for yourself..."Only when you know for yourselves: "These
things are unwholesome and lead to harm and suffering...and these things are
wholesome... and lead to welfare and happiness, THEN you should abandoned
(the unwholeseome things) then you should practice and dwell upon the
wholesome things." (A.3.65)

Metta,

Joyce

 
5216 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Fri May 11, 2001 9:42pm
Subject: clinging to self as practice

 
  > 
> This of course is fine.  There is no requirement here
> to use technical terms.  Those who are familiar with
> the technical terms use them because it helps reduce
> uncertainty.

I thought it was insight into ultimate realities that "reduced" ('removed')
uncertainty.  Only ego can be insecure.  So - when one feels uncertainty -
isn't it just feeling, feeling untill this dissolves- along with the "one",
the knowing, of the object, feeling.  Could also be aversion, aversion one
is noting  -but this also goes, along with the knower.  (Not-two)

Study of technical terms needs only be minimal. Some concepts not well
expressed in English. But use of technical terms to reduce uncertainty?
have I missed that Sutta?

Metta,

Joyce






 But all approaches are welcome!
>
>>     I have long been confused about the role of
>> intention and effort given
>> the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the
>> teaching that ther is no
>> "self" that can control one's progress on the path
>> of truth.  Finding the
>> clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about
>> metta with the intention to
>> have metta, it shows the clinging to self again."
>> What is meant by this?

Self has the habit of mis-perception of reality.  There is the invention of
an object construct called "I" that grasps/reacts and become entangles with
other objects. "Yours/mine".  All of this is based on deeply rooted desiring
to become.  You can also say that awakening the desire to study the path to
enlightenment is clinging to self.  Everything we do initially is this...but
this is natural.  When one has the feeling that clinging or desire is
present, just know this.  Notice the motivation of the desire. Is practice
selfish? - enlightenment, kindness, happiness for me, kind of
self-cultivation or do we include all other sentient beings?  Or is this
desire to understand and to grow in insight coming itself from wisdom mind
and thus is not ego-centered. When selfishness may be present, one then
changes the aspiration.  After awhile, one may have started any practice
from selfish clinging, but the practice itself will take the mind beyond
this origination. Step by step we move from where we were, more and more
opening to other possibilties, and not moving an inch from enlightened mind
in this process..  Nothing is bad or wrong, we just attempt to be aware.
When the natural intelligence of mind sees deeply into itself, into certain
truths, it naturally lets go, no force needed.

So - it is useful to look at the nature of one's practice approach.  Does it
come from a notion that life/self is bad and that by doing certain practices
one will change things?  This is ego-striving practice out of aversion.
Ditto if you focus on some great enlightenment somewhere in the future -
this is greed and delusion. Most of intitial practice is difficult because
where ever one really is, its can be a bit uncomfortable, one doesn't like
it at all.

If the concepts and questions about "clinging to self" are the foremost in
consciousness  -then take this as your meditation focus or object of
contemplation.  Live with your question until at one point there will not be
"two".  There will be a point of coming together of the contemplator and
object of contemplation (perhaps while you are doing the dishes or cutting
the grass) Then the answer or insight into what you are asking will arise in
the manner which is illuminating for you.  And thus you see for yourself
what is wholesome and what is not.

metta,

Joyce

Metta,

Joyce

 
 
5217 From: Herman 
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 11:25am
Subject: Re: clinging to self as practice

 
  The monk, noting an aversion to technical terms, notes thus : 
Aversion to technical terms, aversion to technical terms.

The monk, noting a clinging to technical terms, notes thus : Clinging 
to technical terms , clinging to technical terms.

The monk, noting an ignorance of technical terms, notes thus : 
Ignorance of technical terms, ignorance of technical terms.

Thus the monk is freed from the fetter of technical terms.


With lovingkindness  (there is a huge smiley around this entire post)


Herman

--- "Joyce Short"  wrote:
> > 
> > This of course is fine.  There is no requirement here
> > to use technical terms.  Those who are familiar with
> > the technical terms use them because it helps reduce
> > uncertainty.
> 
> I thought it was insight into ultimate realities that "reduced" 
('removed')
> uncertainty.  Only ego can be insecure.  So - when one feels 
uncertainty -
> isn't it just feeling, feeling untill this dissolves- along with 
the "one",
> the knowing, of the object, feeling.  Could also be aversion, 
aversion one
> is noting  -but this also goes, along with the knower.  (Not-two)
> 
> Study of technical terms needs only be minimal. Some concepts not 
well
> expressed in English. But use of technical terms to reduce 
uncertainty?
> have I missed that Sutta?
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Joyce
>

 
5219 From: bruce   
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 4:36pm
Subject: some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  robert wrote in reply to erik:

> If one
> doesn't know how to study the present moment yet this may seem
> hard to do . But it can be done. 

it does indeed seem hard.  how *does* one study the present moment?


> Mostly my meditation practice involves the investigation of the
> dhammas at the six doors. 

and how does one investigate the dhammas at the six doors?

how is any attempt at this investigation different from attempting to 
notice what is manifesting at the six doors?  in other words, how is 
the practice you describe, robert, different from the 
"even-a-child-can-do" practice joyce describes?

bruce
At 21:27 2001/05/11 -0700, you wrote:
> Dear Joyce,
> Even a child could be taught to focus attention in the way you
> suggest here. Is that what the Buddha meant by satipatthana? 
> I would suggest the development of satipatthana is  more
> profound than that.
> robert 
> 
> --- Joyce Short  wrote:
> > 
> > > What is to be practiced is pure, non-reactive mindfulness
> i.e.
> > as clear and
> > full an awareness as possible (ardently and clearly
> > comprehending) of
> > whatever is present NOW in the area selected for observation,
> > without going
> > off into a  tangeant into other more or less relevent mental
> > associations
> > (feelings, thoughts, value judgments, imaginings)  All noted
> > in ones own
> > body-mind continuum only.
> > 
> > > So  - all investigation is into one's own package of
> body-mind
> > only.  This
> > is done ardently, not with a great deal of tension and effort,
> > but
> > "ardently" in the full meaning of this word.  Think of really
> > being close
> > enough with the other/object to close the gap and then be
> > one/unity) Clearly
> > comprehendending - getting the practice really clear. See each
> > arising
> > really clearly what ever it may be.  What is an "object?" What
> > is mental
> > content?  And how does one note?  Here one notices keenly,
> > sharply like an
> > arrow shot to its target. Noting the object AS it occurs. 
> > Thus mind is not
> > going off into tangental thinking. ie.  noting rising of
> > abdomen  (mental
> > associating ...."hmm, wonder if Im doing this right? Hmm,
> > breath seems
> > shallow to day, wonder if Im sick"...and so on) What is
> > happening to the
> > object one is noting? and so on. Is it staying around? Not?
> > 
> > So, constant awareness, moment to moment, whatever one is
> > doing and with an
> > interested, alert, welcoming attitude.
> > 
> > Contemplation of "others mental processes" is actually,
> > "imagining,
> > imagining". Thinking about external objects or internal
> > objects is
> > "thinking, thinking" the focus of attention is attending here.
> > The purpose
> > is to gain complete, immediate and direct awareness of all
> > phenomena as they
> > arise. In this direct awareness the nature of both the
> > phenomena and the
> > awareness can be seen by the "experiencer".
> > > Joyce
> > 

 
5220 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 4:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: clinging to self as practice

 
  Herman
I was wondering how best to reply to Joyce's post, but
I think you've said it all!
JOn

--- Herman wrote: > The monk, noting
an aversion to technical terms,
> notes thus : 
> Aversion to technical terms, aversion to technical
> terms.
> 
> The monk, noting a clinging to technical terms,
> notes thus : Clinging 
> to technical terms , clinging to technical terms.
> 
> The monk, noting an ignorance of technical terms,
> notes thus : 
> Ignorance of technical terms, ignorance of technical
> terms.
> 
> Thus the monk is freed from the fetter of technical
> terms.
> 
> 
> With lovingkindness  (there is a huge smiley around
> this entire post)
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> --- "Joyce Short"
>  wrote:
> > > 
> > > This of course is fine.  There is no requirement
> here
> > > to use technical terms.  Those who are familiar
> with
> > > the technical terms use them because it helps
> reduce
> > > uncertainty.
> > 
> > I thought it was insight into ultimate realities
> that "reduced" 
> ('removed')
> > uncertainty.  Only ego can be insecure.  So - when
> one feels 
> uncertainty -
> > isn't it just feeling, feeling untill this
> dissolves- along with 
> the "one",
> > the knowing, of the object, feeling.  Could also
> be aversion, 
> aversion one
> > is noting  -but this also goes, along with the
> knower.  (Not-two)
> > 
> > Study of technical terms needs only be minimal.
> Some concepts not 
> well
> > expressed in English. But use of technical terms
> to reduce 
> uncertainty?
> > have I missed that Sutta?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > 
> > Joyce



 
5221 From: Marlon McCall 
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 1:58pm
Subject: Welcome Back Amara

 
  Welcome Back Amara
 
Its so very nice to hear from you again Amara. This is a very special 
day for everyone in this group. It is so nice to see the welcome back 
messages en mass you received. Whether you remain in DSL or D-L 
really doesn't matter, the fact of the matter is you have returned in 
full. I now can leave these two groups with total peace of mind, as I 
only re-listed while awaiting your hopeful return, which you did. 
Thank you very much Amara and everyone here it has truly been a 
pleasure, and an honor associating with all of you.

With Utmost Respect Always
Marlon McCall

Ps. This is a copy of a message I posted to Dhamma-list as Amara has 
began to post there.

 
5222 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 8:42pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Welcome Back Amara

 
  Dear marlon,
Why not stay? I think we're all used to your direct style and
can see your sincere nature. Even we have differences of opinion
it is good to discuss them. Rejoin anytime and you'll be most
welcome.
robert
--- Marlon McCall wrote:
> Welcome Back Amara
>  
> Its so very nice to hear from you again Amara. This is a very
> special 
> day for everyone in this group. It is so nice to see the
> welcome back 
> messages en mass you received. Whether you remain in DSL or
> D-L 
> really doesn't matter, the fact of the matter is you have
> returned in 
> full. I now can leave these two groups with total peace of
> mind, as I 
> only re-listed while awaiting your hopeful return, which you
> did. 
> Thank you very much Amara and everyone here it has truly been
> a 
> pleasure, and an honor associating with all of you.
> 
> With Utmost Respect Always
> Marlon McCall
> 
> Ps. This is a copy of a message I posted to Dhamma-list as
> Amara has 
> began to post there.



 
5223 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Good question Bruce.
--- bruce  wrote:
> robert wrote in reply to erik:
> 
> > If one
> > doesn't know how to study the present moment yet this may
> seem
> > hard to do . But it can be done. 
> 
> it does indeed seem hard.  how *does* one study the present
> moment?
_________________________

I don't think it is some technique that one learns like TM. 
My feeling is that gradually from learning about the Dhamma
there is more understanding that there is only insignificant,
evanescent namas and rupas. Then there is a very gradual
investigation into this matter.


> 
> 
> > Mostly my meditation practice involves the investigation of
> the
> > dhammas at the six doors. 
> 
> and how does one investigate the dhammas at the six doors?
> 
> how is any attempt at this investigation different from
> attempting to 
> notice what is manifesting at the six doors?  in other words,
> how is 
> the practice you describe, robert, different from the 
> "even-a-child-can-do" practice joyce describes?
________________________________________________
I think I mentioned on an earlier that satipatthana is the sole
province of the Buddhas. It must be profound as it leads out of
this beginingless round of birth and death.

In fact, I know that often when doing this 'investigation of the
dhammas at the 6 doors' that it is not actually satipatthana.
More often than not there is simply the experience of feeling or
hardness or colour or sound but without panna or sati. It is 
understanding that distinguishes the difference (between with
and without), and this understanding is supported by listening
and considering.
I think the goal is not so much to have many moments of
awareness but to develop insight into what is seen. There is a
difference.
In the Mahasatipatthana sutta the Buddha says  
"Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a
bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" 
It perhaps sounds easy enough? Just keep attention focussed on
the body?
The commentary explains

"In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like,
know when they move on that they are moving. But this
instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning
similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to
animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not
knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject
of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of
Mindfulness."

So the awareness in satipatthana is something that is directly
opposed to the illusion of self that has been present for all
these aeons.
The commentary says
"Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful
scrutiny. He thinks: There is the body, but there is no being,
no person, no woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a
soul, no "I", nothing that is mine, no one, and nothing
belonging to anyone ."

Much of what Joyce says is certainly correct. There has to be
direct scrutiny of dhammas. But we should be careful not to
oversimplify on this matter. 


I know some will read this and feel discouraged. they will
surely think "well what exactly is it I'm supposed to do". 
As I said it is difficult but not impossible BUT it is something
we have to learn about for ourself.
Dhamma is deep:
The majhima nikaya ii 72
 "you ought to be at a loss
vaccha, you ought to be bewildered. For vaccha this
Dhamma is deep, difficult to see, difficult to
understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond dialectic,
subtle, intelligible to the wise; but it's hard for
you who are under another view, another allegiance,
another objective, of a different observance, and
under a different teacher"
We should be very grateful to be able to learn the Dhamma and be
grateful to those wise monks who preserved it so carefully for
these millenia. I think we shouldn't neglect the deep teachings
that were taught just as much for us as for those at the time of
the Buddha.

The "Kindred Sayings"(III, 
     Khandha vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch V, par. 99, The Leash) 
     Just as, monks, a dog tied up by a leash to a strong stake
or pillar, keeps running 
     round and revolving round and round that stake or pillar,
even so, monks, the 
     untaught many folk... regard body as self, regard feeling,
perception, activities, 
     consciousness as self... they run and revolve round and
round from body to body, 
     from feeling to feeling, from perception to perception,
from activities to activities, 
     from consciousness to consciousness...they are not released
therefrom, they are not 
     released from rebirth, from old age and decay, from sorrow
and grief, from woe, 
     lamentation and despair... they are not released from
dukkha, I declare... "

 It then says that the ariyan disciple who does not take any
dhamma for self is released  from dukkha. 
You see often when "I" investigate the 6 doors there  is just
that: "I". Sati is taken for self or I think "I" made awareness
happen. But cetana (volition, intention) and awareness are  part
of sankharakkhandha, they are "not-self because
uncontrollable" Visuddhimagga xiv224. 
This doesn't mean fatalism or that nothing can be done but it
should remind us that the right conditions are needed for the
right results.

I repeat it is to our great advantage to learn more about the
Dhamma. The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant
average man" as:
"owing to the absense of access to the Scriptures, and of the
higher attainment of the path and fruition.
For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by
heart and deduction therefrom regarding the
khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus)
sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the
applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment
of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor
any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should
be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the
absense of such access and such attainment should be
known as ignorant".

So surely, as Joyce said, investigate whatever appears now. But
I think don't neglect the teachings given to us by the Buddha;
they are the support for samma ditthi. 
robert




 
5224 From: Howard 
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 7:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] noting "others" (?)

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 5/12/01 12:29:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> Dear Joyce,
> Even a child could be taught to focus attention in the way you
> suggest here. Is that what the Buddha meant by satipatthana? 
> I would suggest the development of satipatthana is  more
> profound than that.
> robert 
> 
==============================
       Actually, I don't understand what is lacking in Joyce's description. 
Observing carefully, with clear comprehension, non-reaction, and strong 
concentration and mindfulness whatever arises from moment to moment certainly 
seems to me to be what "insight meditation" is about, and, from my 
perspective it isn't an easy task even for intelligent adults. Please let me 
know what you think I am missing here. 

With metta and respect,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5225 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 0:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] noting "others" (?)

 
  --- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Robert -
> 
> =========
>        Actually, I don't understand what is lacking in Joyce's
> description. 
> Observing carefully, with clear comprehension, non-reaction,
> and strong 
> concentration and mindfulness whatever arises from moment to
> moment certainly 
> seems to me to be what "insight meditation" is about, and,
> from my 
> perspective it isn't an easy task even for intelligent adults.
> Please let me 
> know what you think I am missing here. 
> 
> With metta and respect,
> Howard

_________________
Dear Howard,
You put this very nicely, as always. It was not so much that
Joyce's post was wrong but that (in my opinion) it pared down
the path beyond what it can be reduced to. Quite rightly she
emphasised the importance of direct awareness of whatever
appears but I felt she underemphasised a crucial ingredient -
sammaditthi. 

What I see, personally, is that there can be concentration but
that there can still be subtle idea of permanence. 
If we simply focus attention on
body or feelings or whatever we may succeed but still have an
idea of being able to control. It is all happening very fast
-even if there are moments of genuine awareness  avijja is still
coming in and obscuring what is there.

Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of feeling.
After all feeling arises with every citta. But do we experience
it with sati and panna?
Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it
experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are we not
sure what type of citta experienced it? Even if we feel very
equanimous about the feelings that arise it is not necessarily
the type of citta associated with satipatthana. 

Certainly we should explore feelings and citta and all dhammas
arising at the 6 doors but let us not underestimate this
process.
Avijja is so often the majician that fools us. It can make what
is not sati look like sati. 
robert




 
5226 From: Erik 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 3:57am
Subject: Re: Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Ai Lin,
> 
> Warmest regards and welcome to dsg. Eric has been
> challenging us all with his debates and has become a
> key participant here recently! If you start calling
> him Sam, we'll now understand, thank you!! <Eric, the
> twins in 'Lord of the Flies' are called Sam 'n Eric,
> is this the connection??>

Sure, Sarah, you know I'm out of town and you can talk behind my back 
cuz I can't defend myself! Ha! Re: Sam 'n Eric ref, that has occurred 
to me more than once. I loved that book as a kid.

Just, a few minutes ago, get back from seeing His Holiness the Dalai 
Lama, here in Salt Lake City. Wow. The teachings were on the Four 
Noble Truths and the Paramitas, with a heavy dose of anatta and 
paticca samuppada. Please understand just how big a head-trip this 
has been for me to hear the profound and sublime teaching on ten-drel 
(Paticca Sammupada) elaborated here in the land of Mormons. I never, 
ever believed I'd see the day. I never ever believed I'd live to see 
the day my own mom, a strict Mormon herself, would purchase tickets 
to see His Holiness. Even the President of the Mormon church met with 
the Dalai Lama and called him his "brother." This is PROOF miracles 
are possible. 

As I was perusing the Visuddhimagga on the plane, I saw once again 
the teaching that throughout our limitless rebirths that there are 
few beings who have not been our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, 
and given it's Mother's Day tommorrow, this meditation couldn't have 
come at a better time. What a weekend!

Today's session began with the Dalai Lama praising the Wisdom of the 
Theras as the foundation of all Buddhadhamma, and began the teaching 
by requesting the contigent of Theravada monks sharing the stage with 
him to recite verses for everyone present. To hear the chants of both 
traditions echoing beside one another and the whole thing nearly 
overwhelmed me with gratitude, love, and tears. And of course hearing 
that from someone I consider one of my two lamas merely encourages my 
further studies in the Theravada Abhidhamma to lay the complete 
foundation for everything else. Just thought I'd write in while it's 
all still so fresh and share this wonderful stuff with all here in 
dsg.

May all beings have happiness and cause of happiness
May all beings be free from suffering and cause of suffering
May all beings neverr be separated from perfect happiness
May all beings abide in perfect equanimity, free from the poijnsons 
of greed, hatred, and delusion

 
5227 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 8:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  Dear Erik,
This is really nice news. It sounds like the Dalai Lama might
have preceeded you in investigating the Theravada. He is very
understanding and evenhanded to say this.
I guess any qualms you might have had about studying within 2
traditions are gone, although I have a feeling that you- an
uncommon man- had very few anyway.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott
>  
> wrote:
> > Dear Ai Lin,
> > 
> > Warmest regards and welcome to dsg. Eric has been
> > challenging us all with his debates and has become a
> > key participant here recently! If you start calling
> > him Sam, we'll now understand, thank you!! <Eric, the
> > twins in 'Lord of the Flies' are called Sam 'n Eric,
> > is this the connection??>
> 
> Sure, Sarah, you know I'm out of town and you can talk behind
> my back 
> cuz I can't defend myself! Ha! Re: Sam 'n Eric ref, that has
> occurred 
> to me more than once. I loved that book as a kid.
> 
> Just, a few minutes ago, get back from seeing His Holiness the
> Dalai 
> Lama, here in Salt Lake City. Wow. The teachings were on the
> Four 
> Noble Truths and the Paramitas, with a heavy dose of anatta
> and 
> paticca samuppada. Please understand just how big a head-trip
> this 
> has been for me to hear the profound and sublime teaching on
> ten-drel 
> (Paticca Sammupada) elaborated here in the land of Mormons. I
> never, 
> ever believed I'd see the day. I never ever believed I'd live
> to see 
> the day my own mom, a strict Mormon herself, would purchase
> tickets 
> to see His Holiness. Even the President of the Mormon church
> met with 
> the Dalai Lama and called him his "brother." This is PROOF
> miracles 
> are possible. 
> 
> As I was perusing the Visuddhimagga on the plane, I saw once
> again 
> the teaching that throughout our limitless rebirths that there
> are 
> few beings who have not been our mothers, fathers, brothers,
> sisters, 
> and given it's Mother's Day tommorrow, this meditation
> couldn't have 
> come at a better time. What a weekend!
> 
> Today's session began with the Dalai Lama praising the Wisdom
> of the 
> Theras as the foundation of all Buddhadhamma, and began the
> teaching 
> by requesting the contigent of Theravada monks sharing the
> stage with 
> him to recite verses for everyone present. To hear the chants
> of both 
> traditions echoing beside one another and the whole thing
> nearly 
> overwhelmed me with gratitude, love, and tears. And of course
> hearing 
> that from someone I consider one of my two lamas merely
> encourages my 
> further studies in the Theravada Abhidhamma to lay the
> complete 
> foundation for everything else. Just thought I'd write in
> while it's 
> all still so fresh and share this wonderful stuff with all
> here in 
> dsg.
> 
> May all beings have happiness and cause of happiness
> May all beings be free from suffering and cause of suffering
> May all beings neverr be separated from perfect happiness
> May all beings abide in perfect equanimity, free from the
> poijnsons 
> of greed, hatred, and delusion
> 



 
5228 From: bruce   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 10:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  thanks for your reply robert.  i am still not sure how one actually is to
go about studying dhammas arising at the six dvara, so perhaps another
question, open to all of course:

how does one know whether awareness of what is being noticed arises with
panna or sati, or without?

bruce





At 06:56 2001/05/12 -0700, you wrote:
> Good question Bruce.
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > robert wrote in reply to erik:
> > 
> > > If one
> > > doesn't know how to study the present moment yet this may
> > seem
> > > hard to do . But it can be done. 
> > 
> > it does indeed seem hard.  how *does* one study the present
> > moment?
> _________________________
> 
> I don't think it is some technique that one learns like TM. 
> My feeling is that gradually from learning about the Dhamma
> there is more understanding that there is only insignificant,
> evanescent namas and rupas. Then there is a very gradual
> investigation into this matter.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > > Mostly my meditation practice involves the investigation of
> > the
> > > dhammas at the six doors. 
> > 
> > and how does one investigate the dhammas at the six doors?
> > 
> > how is any attempt at this investigation different from
> > attempting to 
> > notice what is manifesting at the six doors?  in other words,
> > how is 
> > the practice you describe, robert, different from the 
> > "even-a-child-can-do" practice joyce describes?
> ________________________________________________
> I think I mentioned on an earlier that satipatthana is the sole
> province of the Buddhas. It must be profound as it leads out of
> this beginingless round of birth and death.
> 
> In fact, I know that often when doing this 'investigation of the
> dhammas at the 6 doors' that it is not actually satipatthana.
> More often than not there is simply the experience of feeling or
> hardness or colour or sound but without panna or sati. It is 
> understanding that distinguishes the difference (between with
> and without), and this understanding is supported by listening
> and considering.
> I think the goal is not so much to have many moments of
> awareness but to develop insight into what is seen. There is a
> difference.
> In the Mahasatipatthana sutta the Buddha says  
> "Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a
> bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" 
> It perhaps sounds easy enough? Just keep attention focussed on
> the body?
> The commentary explains
> 
> "In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like,
> know when they move on that they are moving. But this
> instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning
> similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to
> animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not
> knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject
> of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of
> Mindfulness."
> 
> So the awareness in satipatthana is something that is directly
> opposed to the illusion of self that has been present for all
> these aeons.
> The commentary says
> "Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful
> scrutiny. He thinks: There is the body, but there is no being,
> no person, no woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a
> soul, no "I", nothing that is mine, no one, and nothing
> belonging to anyone ."
> 
> Much of what Joyce says is certainly correct. There has to be
> direct scrutiny of dhammas. But we should be careful not to
> oversimplify on this matter. 
> 
> 
> I know some will read this and feel discouraged. they will
> surely think "well what exactly is it I'm supposed to do". 
> As I said it is difficult but not impossible BUT it is something
> we have to learn about for ourself.
> Dhamma is deep:
> The majhima nikaya ii 72
>  "you ought to be at a loss
> vaccha, you ought to be bewildered. For vaccha this
> Dhamma is deep, difficult to see, difficult to
> understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond dialectic,
> subtle, intelligible to the wise; but it's hard for
> you who are under another view, another allegiance,
> another objective, of a different observance, and
> under a different teacher"
> We should be very grateful to be able to learn the Dhamma and be
> grateful to those wise monks who preserved it so carefully for
> these millenia. I think we shouldn't neglect the deep teachings
> that were taught just as much for us as for those at the time of
> the Buddha.
> 
> The "Kindred Sayings"(III, 
>      Khandha vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch V, par. 99, The Leash) 
>      Just as, monks, a dog tied up by a leash to a strong stake
> or pillar, keeps running 
>      round and revolving round and round that stake or pillar,
> even so, monks, the 
>      untaught many folk... regard body as self, regard feeling,
> perception, activities, 
>      consciousness as self... they run and revolve round and
> round from body to body, 
>      from feeling to feeling, from perception to perception,
> from activities to activities, 
>      from consciousness to consciousness...they are not released
> therefrom, they are not 
>      released from rebirth, from old age and decay, from sorrow
> and grief, from woe, 
>      lamentation and despair... they are not released from
> dukkha, I declare... "
> 
>  It then says that the ariyan disciple who does not take any
> dhamma for self is released  from dukkha. 
> You see often when "I" investigate the 6 doors there  is just
> that: "I". Sati is taken for self or I think "I" made awareness
> happen. But cetana (volition, intention) and awareness are  part
> of sankharakkhandha, they are "not-self because
> uncontrollable" Visuddhimagga xiv224. 
> This doesn't mean fatalism or that nothing can be done but it
> should remind us that the right conditions are needed for the
> right results.
> 
> I repeat it is to our great advantage to learn more about the
> Dhamma. The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant
> average man" as:
> "owing to the absense of access to the Scriptures, and of the
> higher attainment of the path and fruition.
> For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by
> heart and deduction therefrom regarding the
> khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus)
> sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the
> applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment
> of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor
> any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should
> be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the
> absense of such access and such attainment should be
> known as ignorant".
> 
> So surely, as Joyce said, investigate whatever appears now. But
> I think don't neglect the teachings given to us by the Buddha;
> they are the support for samma ditthi. 
> robert
> 

 
5229 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 10:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Bruce,
this is the million dollar question. I'll leave it to other
wiser members for now and maybe have a comment or two later.
robert
--- bruce  wrote:
> thanks for your reply robert.  i am still not sure how one
> actually is to
> go about studying dhammas arising at the six dvara, so perhaps
> another
> question, open to all of course:
> 
> how does one know whether awareness of what is being noticed
> arises with
> panna or sati, or without?
> 
> bruce



 
5230 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 3:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Gihi Sutta (was 'uprooting your kilesa?')

 
  Antony

--- Antony wrote: 

> There is a saying I have come to like, it is this:
> That suttas are 
> not for reading, they are for practicing with. The
> Buddha taught what 
> should be implemented. Suttas are not novels.  They
> are great stories 
> but that is a limited understanding and almost a
> waste.

Yes, they are certainly more than just that.  Thinking
back to the original occasion, they were what the
listener(s) on that occasion needed to hear.  They
were not always, however, about the practice directly,
although they were always connected with the
development of kusala and release from samsara.

The Gihi Sutta is an interesting example.  It seems to
be descriptive of the layperson who has attained the
first stage of enlightenment.  Only the stream-winner
(or above) observes the 5 precepts to perfection and
has perfected confidence/faith in the teachings.  We
are told that Anathapindika was a stream-winner
himself, having become that on his first meeting with
the Buddha.  So I would guess the purpose of the sutta
was to declare for the benefit of the other 500
laypeople, and for posterity, that the attainment to
stream-entry by a layperson was every bit equal to the
same attainment by a monk, since we know that this
sort of question was and remains an issue for some.

I look forward to any comments of your own on the
sutta.

Jon



 
5231 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 3:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  AiLin

Welcome to the list.  Glad to have you with us.

--- Ai Lin Edwards  wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am AiLin here, Eric (I know him as Sam A. Vacca at
> other forums)directed 
> me here. Thanks Eric, I eventually get through to
> this site.

It was nice of Erik to refer you here.  I think his
other name suits well (but there was a contrary view
here at one stage!).

> I am a Chinese Buddhist, practising Vipassana for
> about ten years now. I am 
> from Malaysia and get my first taste of vipassana
> under Rev. Sujiva (late 
> Mahasi Sayadaw's lineage). I do my self-study on
> buddha dhamma whenever I 
> can. I reside in Australia right now and a regular
> at both Roshi Hogen's and 
> Edepot Buddhist Discussion Forum.
> 
> I like what I see here, and will visit very often
> from now on.
> 
> I have not much to offer right now, but find useful
> information here and 
> much to chew on. I'll try to read back all previous
> posts and hopefully get 
> some answers to my questions in my mind. I'll raise
> further questions to old 
> discussion topic if you people don't mind.
>
> My warmest regards to everybody here.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> AiLin

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Jon


 
5232 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention? (was, Introduction and a question from a new person)

 
  Howard

In a message to Sarah and Paul you said:

>        I agree with you, Paul. I found myself
> perplexed with regard to 
> several points of Khun Sujin's reported by you,
> Sarah. It seems to me that 
> what KS is talking against, and you, Paul, are
> talking in favor of, would 
> usually be considered as a simple instance of right
> intention. KS *seems* to 
> me to be following a bit of a fatalistic,
> volition-is-useless tack. Perhaps I 
> miss-read her.

This is perhaps the same point that has been the
source of some discouragement among one or two of the
members on this list.  It is indeed a difficult one to
get a handle on.  I am reminded that many
non-Buddhists seem to regard the dhamma as fatalistic
when they first hear it (just an observation, no
comparison intended here, Howard).

To say that our intentions are likely to involve
impure motives (eg. expectations and anticipation) or
to be premised on an unrealistic sense of our own
level of understanding is not to suggest that the
activity in question should not be pursued.  It should
I think be taken as a welcome reminder of our
undoubted shortcomings.  We all have the tendency to
regard a genuine interest in the dhamma as meaning
that the accumulated akusala/latent tendencies that
had previously driven our lives should cease to be the
problem they were.  Yet if we think about it for a
minute, this is unlikely to be the case. Even in a
'wholesome situation' there are bound to be the same
old unwholesome tendencies manifesting, perhaps in a
more subtle or devious form but finding an opportunity
nonetheless.  Moments of true kusala remain relatively
speaking few and far between (my own experience,
anyway).

Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be fatal to
the development of understanding or any form of kusala
for that matter.  Could we say that a healthy
scepticism about the quality of our mind-states is a
useful attitude to have?

Jon

> 
> In a message dated 5/10/01 7:52:24 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> Paul Bail writes:
> 
> 
> > Hello dear list members,
> > 
> >     By way of introduction I am a 54 year old
> male, living on the East 
> > Coast 
> > of the United States, interested in Buddhdharma.
> In the past year I ahve 
> > become aware of some of the resources on the
> Internet, including the 
> > wonderful world of lists.
> >     I am a newcomer to this particular list,
> having recently stumbled 
> > across 
> > it due to a comment someone made on another list. 
> A few years ago I read 
> > one 
> > of Nina van Gorkom's books.  But it is only in the
> past couple of months 
> > that 
> > an interest has begun in actually studying
> Abdhidamma. Lacking the 
> > education 
> > to use the correct technical terms, I will have to
> phrase my question in 
> > everyday language.
> >     I have long been confused about the role of
> intention and effort given 
> > the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the
> teaching that ther is no 
> > "self" that can control one's progress on the path
> of truth.  Finding the 
> > path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of
> the teachings, deepening 
> > one's study, and adhering to the path all depend
> upon conditions and are 
> > not 
> > in the direct control of a self that can "make"
> one do any of the above.
> >     Still, it seems that effort and intention play
> a role in the process. 
> > The 
> > Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and
> its cessation as the 
> > gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an
> intention to end one's 
> > suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is
> a desire, but unlike 
> > ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself
> as one glimpses the truth 
> > that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.
> >     So, when I read the post below (# 5171) I was
> a little confused.  
> > Perhaps 
> > this is a semantic confusion, not a substantial
> one.  Hopefully someone can 
> > clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about
> metta with the intention 
> > to 
> > have metta, it shows the clinging to self again." 
> What is meant by this?
> >     If one starts with the desire to end
> suffering, as the Buddha suggests, 
> > and realizes that the path includes the
> accumulation of wisom *and* merit, 
> > including the cultivation of virtuous states of
> mind such as metta, then 
> > wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to
> promote the arising of 
> > metta?  
> > One could think that reading the sutta,
> contemplating it, etc. could 
> > provide 
> > conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of
> course, one cannot *make* 
> > metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at
> times) be unskillful to turn 
> > to 
> > sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an
> unpleasant state of mind 
> > that is arising. 
> >     Or to take another example--dana.  One engages
> in the physical act of 
> > giving but becomes aware that a mental state of
> generosity may not be 
> > arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed
> by second-thoughts, 
> > regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this
> process.  One cannot 
> > *make* 
> > generosity arise.  Nevertheless, the act of giving
> is preferable to 
> > non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate
> generosity still seems to 
> > have some place in the process of the path, does
> it not?
> >     I would presume that the point is not to
> forego sutta reading, or acts 
> > of 
> > generosity.  Do you feel sutta reading is a good
> activity if done with 
> > correct understanding, not expecting it to be like
> putting a coin in a 
> > machine and getting a candy in return?
> > 
> > Paul Bail
> >     
> > ----------------
> > Sarah wrote:
> > > now if we understand the difference between
> kusala and
> > > akusala. It is important to know the intention.
> If we
> > > open a sutta about metta with the intention to
> have
> > > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> > > understanding is always the key, so there can be
> > > understanding of metta when it arises naturally
> by
> > > conditions. This is the way that samtha is
> developed,
> > > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an
> object
> > > like breath for development. There was also a 
> lot
> > > more discussion about breath as object of
> samatha.
> > 
> > 


 
5233 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 5:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] clinging to self as practice

 
  --- Joyce Short  wrote: > > 
> > This of course is fine.  There is no requirement
> here
> > to use technical terms.  Those who are familiar
> with
> > the technical terms use them because it helps
> reduce
> > uncertainty.
> 
> I thought it was insight into ultimate realities
> that "reduced" ('removed')
> uncertainty.

Joyce
You are no doubt correct.  However, I was referring to
uncertainty of expression, not uncertainty about the
nature of realities (although plenty of this too, of
course).
Jon


  Only ego can be insecure.  So - when
> one feels uncertainty -
> isn't it just feeling, feeling untill this
> dissolves- along with the "one",
> the knowing, of the object, feeling.  Could also be
> aversion, aversion one
> is noting  -but this also goes, along with the
> knower.  (Not-two)
> 
> Study of technical terms needs only be minimal. Some
> concepts not well
> expressed in English. But use of technical terms to
> reduce uncertainty?
> have I missed that Sutta?
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Joyce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  But all approaches are welcome!
> >
> >>     I have long been confused about the role of
> >> intention and effort given
> >> the fact of selflessness.  I can appreciate the
> >> teaching that ther is no
> >> "self" that can control one's progress on the
> path
> >> of truth.  Finding the
> >> clarify? The post says: "If we open a sutta about
> >> metta with the intention to
> >> have metta, it shows the clinging to self again."
> >> What is meant by this?
> 
> Self has the habit of mis-perception of reality. 
> There is the invention of
> an object construct called "I" that grasps/reacts
> and become entangles with
> other objects. "Yours/mine".  All of this is based
> on deeply rooted desiring
> to become.  You can also say that awakening the
> desire to study the path to
> enlightenment is clinging to self.  Everything we do
> initially is this...but
> this is natural.  When one has the feeling that
> clinging or desire is
> present, just know this.  Notice the motivation of
> the desire. Is practice
> selfish? - enlightenment, kindness, happiness for
> me, kind of
> self-cultivation or do we include all other sentient
> beings?  Or is this
> desire to understand and to grow in insight coming
> itself from wisdom mind
> and thus is not ego-centered. When selfishness may
> be present, one then
> changes the aspiration.  After awhile, one may have
> started any practice
> from selfish clinging, but the practice itself will
> take the mind beyond
> this origination. Step by step we move from where we
> were, more and more
> opening to other possibilties, and not moving an
> inch from enlightened mind
> in this process..  Nothing is bad or wrong, we just
> attempt to be aware.
> When the natural intelligence of mind sees deeply
> into itself, into certain
> truths, it naturally lets go, no force needed.
> 
> So - it is useful to look at the nature of one's
> practice approach.  Does it
> come from a notion that life/self is bad and that by
> doing certain practices
> one will change things?  This is ego-striving
> practice out of aversion.
> Ditto if you focus on some great enlightenment
> somewhere in the future -
> this is greed and delusion. Most of intitial
> practice is difficult because
> where ever one really is, its can be a bit
> uncomfortable, one doesn't like
> it at all.
> 
> If the concepts and questions about "clinging to
> self" are the foremost in
> consciousness  -then take this as your meditation
> focus or object of
> contemplation.  Live with your question until at one
> point there will not be
> "two".  There will be a point of coming together of
> the contemplator and
> object of contemplation (perhaps while you are doing
> the dishes or cutting
> the grass) Then the answer or insight into what you
> are asking will arise in
> the manner which is illuminating for you.  And thus
> you see for yourself
> what is wholesome and what is not.
> 
> metta,
> 
> Joyce
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Joyce
> 



 
5234 From: bruce   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 5:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention? (was, Introduction and a question from a new person)

 
  hi jon

At 16:47 2001/05/13 +0800, you wrote:


> Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be fatal to
> the development of understanding or any form of kusala
> for that matter.  

of course! but how are we to differentiate kusala cetana from akusala? 

bruce

 
5235 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 7:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Dear Paul, Howard, Bruce & Joyce, 

This may be a little long, but I'll keep this one
pretty free of Pali and references. I hope I am not
just repeating what others have said more succinctly
and wisely!

Paul wrote:
>I can appreciate the
> teaching that there is no 
> > "self" that can control one's progress on the path
> of truth.  Finding the 
> > path, finding a teacher, recognizing the truth of
> the teachings, deepening 
> > one's study, and adhering to the path all depend
> upon conditions and are 
> > not 
> > in the direct control of a self that can "make"
> one do any of the above.

This is exactly right as I see it too!

> >     Still, it seems that effort and intention play
> a role in the process. 
> > The 
> > Buddha set forth the noble truth of suffering and
> its cessation as the 
> > gateway to the path.  Therefore one begins with an
> intention to end one's 
> > suffering by pursuing the eightfold path. This is
> a desire, but unlike 
> > ordinary desires, it begins to deconstruct itself
> as one glimpses the truth 
> > that in fact there is no "self" that is suffering.

Effort and intention do play their roles. Intention
arises at every moment and effort at most times. These
are also 'not-self' and arise according to conditions,
their particular nature at any given moment being
influenced by all the different factors at that time.

It seems to me that we hear and accept there is no
self and yet whenever there is the idea of attending
to a particular reality, observing carefully,
selecting an object, not reacting, or being aware at
every moment, that the idea of self is there again.
Focusing or strongly concentrating on an object is not
the same as being aware of what has arisen already by
conditions at this very moment. 

It is not the desire or intention to follow the
eightfold path that begins to lead to an end of
suffering, but the understanding of a reality, say
seeing or hearing or hardness now as a mental or
physical phenomena, not self.

> >     If one starts with the desire to end
> suffering, as the Buddha suggests, 
> > and realizes that the path includes the
> accumulation of wisom *and* merit, 
> > including the cultivation of virtuous states of
> mind such as metta, then 
> > wouldn't one engage in activities that seem to
> promote the arising of 
> > metta?  
> > One could think that reading the sutta,
> contemplating it, etc. could 
> > provide 
> > conditions favorable to the arising of metta?  Of
> course, one cannot *make* 
> > metta arise by doing this.  Also it could (at
> times) be unskillful to turn 
> > to 
> > sutta reading in order to avoid investigating an
> unpleasant state of mind 
> > that is arising. 

As you started off by saying, all these activities
depend on conditions and are not 'in the direct
control of a self'. There are always many skilful and
unskilful moments. The point being made was that lobha
and clinging to self are there when we wish to have
more metta or would like to end suffering. If there is
more understanding of the value of metta, there wil be
conditions to read, hear, consider more about it and
best of all to show friendliness and kindness whenever
one has an opportunity anyway. So it is the
understanding of the value, by knowing its wholesome
nature when it arises, not the wish to have metta,
which will condition metta to arise more often.

> >     Or to take another example--dana.  One engages
> in the physical act of 
> > giving but becomes aware that a mental state of
> generosity may not be 
> > arising, or may arise momentarily and be followed
> by second-thoughts, 
> > regrets, etc.  One sees the selflessness of this
> process.  One cannot 
> > *make* 
> > generosity arise. 

These are astute observations and like Rob and the
others, I appreciate your careful consideration of the
dhamma.

> Nevertheless, the act of giving
> is preferable to 
> > non-giving. The intention, or wish, to cultivate
> generosity still seems to 
> > have some place in the process of the path, does
> it not?

Exactly. The point is that there is some understanding
about the value of generosity and knowledge that even
though there are different mental states involved,
there are moments of giving to the other which should
be encouraged.

> >     I would presume that the point is not to
> forego sutta reading, or acts 
> > of 
> > generosity.  

Exactly so! the point is to understand the value of
wholesome states (however few and far between!) and to
know these and all other realities are not self, not
worthy of being clung to.

Do you feel sutta reading is a good
> activity if done with 
> > correct understanding, not expecting it to be like
> putting a coin in a 
> > machine and getting a candy in return?

Of course. Reading, hearing, considering and
developing  intellectual right understanding are
essential. Most useful of all is understanding the
reality now, whether reading a sutta, shopping or
playing tennis.


> > Sarah wrote:

> If we
> > > open a sutta about metta with the intention to
> have
> > > metta, it shows the clinging to self again. the
> > > understanding is always the key, so there can be
> > > understanding of metta when it arises naturally
> by
> > > conditions. This is the way that samtha is
> developed,
> > > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an
> object
 
> =================================
Howard: 

>        I agree with you, Paul. I found myself
> perplexed with regard to 
> several points of Khun Sujin's reported by you,
> Sarah. It seems to me that 
> what KS is talking against, and you, Paul, are
> talking in favor of, would 
> usually be considered as a simple instance of right
> intention. KS *seems* to 
> me to be following a bit of a fatalistic,
> volition-is-useless tack. Perhaps I 
> miss-read her.
> 

Firstly, let me make it quite clear that I'm writing
according to 'my' understanding of dhamma. I am not
quoting Khun Sujin unless indicated.

The more understanding develops the more it begins to
know more and more subtle clinging and wrong view. So
what is obvious now as when Paul says 'I can
appreciate the teaching that there is no 'self' that
can control one's progress on the path of truth' was
not obvious when we first heard the Buddha's
teachings. 
 
Is it fatalistic and can generosity and metta be
developed? My experience is that the more is known and
understood about these different realities and about
the difference between say, attachment and metta or
about what generosity really is, the more conditions
there will be for these qualities to be developed.

If we just plan to be more generous but know nothing
about different mental states or about good and bad,
how can it develop? If we just wish to be a kind
person and read a sutta over and over again without
understanding the special quality of metta when there
is a chance to show kindness, will it grow?

Understanding realities as they are, as not-self, is
not fatalistic but realistic. However, if we cling to
the idea that a self can act or do something or have
more good intentions at will, it will seem this way
for sure!

When there is a moment of understanding, there is no
doubt or idea of fatalism at that moment. It can
develop and it does develop if there has been the
right considering. Personally I find it really
inspiring and encouraging and a condition to read,
consider and develop a little more metta and dana,
rather than the reverse.

As we all know, these points are not easy. I don't
wish to suggest I have all or many of the answers but
I'm just trying to share a little of how I understand
the dhamma. I'll be glad to hear any objections!

Best regards for now,

Sarah





 
5236 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 8:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  Erik

Welcome back (btw, I don't think you had mentioned you
would be away).

Thanks for sharing your experience with HH Dalai Lama.
 It was obviously quite an occasion.  I also
'anumodana' your wholesome resolution to continue
studying the Dhamma.

Jon


--- Erik wrote: >  Sarah Procter Abbott
>  
> wrote:
> > Dear Ai Lin,
> > 
> > Warmest regards and welcome to dsg. Eric has been
> > challenging us all with his debates and has become
> a
> > key participant here recently! If you start
> calling
> > him Sam, we'll now understand, thank you!! <Eric,
> the
> > twins in 'Lord of the Flies' are called Sam 'n
> Eric,
> > is this the connection??>
> 
> Sure, Sarah, you know I'm out of town and you can
> talk behind my back 
> cuz I can't defend myself! Ha! Re: Sam 'n Eric ref,
> that has occurred 
> to me more than once. I loved that book as a kid.
> 
> Just, a few minutes ago, get back from seeing His
> Holiness the Dalai 
> Lama, here in Salt Lake City. Wow. The teachings
> were on the Four 
> Noble Truths and the Paramitas, with a heavy dose of
> anatta and 
> paticca samuppada. Please understand just how big a
> head-trip this 
> has been for me to hear the profound and sublime
> teaching on ten-drel 
> (Paticca Sammupada) elaborated here in the land of
> Mormons. I never, 
> ever believed I'd see the day. I never ever believed
> I'd live to see 
> the day my own mom, a strict Mormon herself, would
> purchase tickets 
> to see His Holiness. Even the President of the
> Mormon church met with 
> the Dalai Lama and called him his "brother." This is
> PROOF miracles 
> are possible. 
> 
> As I was perusing the Visuddhimagga on the plane, I
> saw once again 
> the teaching that throughout our limitless rebirths
> that there are 
> few beings who have not been our mothers, fathers,
> brothers, sisters, 
> and given it's Mother's Day tommorrow, this
> meditation couldn't have 
> come at a better time. What a weekend!
> 
> Today's session began with the Dalai Lama praising
> the Wisdom of the 
> Theras as the foundation of all Buddhadhamma, and
> began the teaching 
> by requesting the contigent of Theravada monks
> sharing the stage with 
> him to recite verses for everyone present. To hear
> the chants of both 
> traditions echoing beside one another and the whole
> thing nearly 
> overwhelmed me with gratitude, love, and tears. And
> of course hearing 
> that from someone I consider one of my two lamas
> merely encourages my 
> further studies in the Theravada Abhidhamma to lay
> the complete 
> foundation for everything else. Just thought I'd
> write in while it's 
> all still so fresh and share this wonderful stuff
> with all here in 
> dsg.
> 
> May all beings have happiness and cause of happiness
> May all beings be free from suffering and cause of
> suffering
> May all beings neverr be separated from perfect
> happiness
> May all beings abide in perfect equanimity, free
> from the poijnsons 
> of greed, hatred, and delusion
> 



 
5237 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 8:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk - the hindrances

 
  --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah -
> 
> In a message dated 5/9/01 2:21:31 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> Sarah  writes:
> 
> 
> > 3. HINDRANCE to development of satipatthana. The
> only
> > hindrance is the last one, ignorance. The other
> > hindrances are to the development of samatha only.
> > 
> > 
> > 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
> > cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response
> 'Why
> > not?"
> > 
> ==================================
>        The above two strike me as less than optimal
> answers. # 9 simply 
> offers no explanation. Without some detailed
> clarification, # 3 appears to be 
> simply false. Sorry to be a nay-sayer, but this is
> how I see these.

On #3, see the following excerpt from the
Abhidhammattha Sangaha translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi
(CMA p. 267):

"#8:  Six hindrances:  the hindrances of (1) sensual
desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4)
restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance.

Guide to #8:  The hindrances are so called because
they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to the
attainment of Nibbana.  According to the commentary
the hindrances are mental factors which prevent
unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do
not allow arisen wholesome states to endure.  The
first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the
attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the
major obstacle to the arising of wisdom."
[end quote]

The view generally espoused nowadays is, I believe,
that the hindrances are all hindrances to the arising
of wisdom (this view is of course consistent with the
idea that development of the jhanas is necessary for
the attainment of the path).

Jon



 
5238 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc. - Erik

 
  Eric

Just a question on a point from your post to Joyce
that you have mentioned before.

> Hi Joyce,
> 
> You bring up the idea that Robert mentioned, the
> notion that it is 
> quite possible to become attached to kusala. I think
> it is very 
> important to be aware of what both yourself and
> Robert mention, 
> namely, not getting attached to a "doer" behind it.
> Of course this is 
> exactly the logic behind any activity from the
> perspective of 
> Prajnaparamita, and I do not disagree with you een a
> little bit on 
> this point. 
> 
> What I have been addressing, mainly, is not putting
> the cart before 
> the horse. There has to be kusala in place, first,
> before panna is 
> even remotely possible. It really is a requirement.

It seems to me that we come to this life with
accumulated tendencies (is this the same as your
'stocks of merit', I wonder?) of various kinds of
kusala, including the kusala that is panna.  [How
otherwise would a boy from a good Mormon family
gravitate to the dhamma!]  These tendencies, again
including panna, are the result of kusala
performed/developed in previous lives.  What then is
the basis for the idea that more kusala is needed
before panna can arise in this life?  The main
condition for that must surely be to meet the teaching
again in a form which is understandable to us.

Jon

> That people can 
> become attached to kusala, to me, represents a far
> less risky 
> proposition than going full-bore into the wisdom
> teachings and trying 
> to skip the dualistic realities of the Dhamma that
> distinguishes 
> between conventional phenomena based on their
> caharacteristics.
>
> It is what I perceive as a lack of balance that I am
> questioning. And 
> really, what's the worst that can happen if you
> diligently strive to 
> cultivate kusala states of mind and fail in
> awakening to supramundane 
> insight in this lifetime? I think the result is far
> better than 
> failing at BOTH kusala AND insight! At least if
> there is a large 
> stock of merit, then the conditions will certainly
> arise to come into 
> contact with the Dharma later on, and one will
> additionally encounter 
> toall the conditions necessary to practice the
> wisdom aspect of the 
> Dhamma to bring it to fruition.



 
5239 From: Erik 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc. - Erik

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Eric

Hi JonAthan, :)

> It seems to me that we come to this life with
> accumulated tendencies (is this the same as your
> 'stocks of merit', I wonder?) of various kinds of
> kusala, including the kusala that is panna.  [How
> otherwise would a boy from a good Mormon family
> gravitate to the dhamma!]  These tendencies, again
> including panna, are the result of kusala
> performed/developed in previous lives.  What then is
> the basis for the idea that more kusala is needed
> before panna can arise in this life?  The main
> condition for that must surely be to meet the teaching
> again in a form which is understandable to us.

I was referring to (and I should have been more specific) lokuttara 
panna here. Definitely one needs to have abandoned akusala to a high 
degree and have accumulated a lot of kusala. Otherwise the conditions 
won't arise to actualize this.

For example, I am thinking about yesterday's event. There were over 
ten thousand people there all listening to the sublime teachings of 
paticca samuppada. How many of those hearing those teachings 
yesterday will realize this sublime teaching directly in this 
lifetime?

It is one thing to have the kamma to hear these teachings; it is an 
entirely different thing to have all the appropriate causes and 
conditions such that one will be able to penetreate their essence.

I tend to concentrate on this wisdom aspect of the path a lot, 
because kusala is great but insufficient. But also, if one has poor 
conditions, then big stocks of merit are necessary to clear away the 
obstructions brought about by unfavorable conditions, so that one may 
find favorable enough circumstances for actual development of this 
type of wisdom. And that in itself is no small feat.

 
5240 From: Erik 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc. - Erik

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Eric

Hi JonAthan, :)

> It seems to me that we come to this life with
> accumulated tendencies (is this the same as your
> 'stocks of merit', I wonder?) of various kinds of
> kusala, including the kusala that is panna.  [How
> otherwise would a boy from a good Mormon family
> gravitate to the dhamma!]  These tendencies, again
> including panna, are the result of kusala
> performed/developed in previous lives.  What then is
> the basis for the idea that more kusala is needed
> before panna can arise in this life?  The main
> condition for that must surely be to meet the teaching
> again in a form which is understandable to us.

I was referring to (and I should have been more specific) lokuttara 
panna here. Definitely one needs to have abandoned akusala to a high 
degree and have accumulated a lot of kusala. Otherwise the conditions 
won't arise to actualize this.

For example, I am thinking about yesterday's event. There were over 
ten thousand people there all listening to the sublime teachings of 
paticca samuppada. How many of those hearing those teachings 
yesterday will realize this sublime teaching directly in this 
lifetime?

It is one thing to have the kamma to hear these teachings; it is an 
entirely different thing to have all the appropriate causes and 
conditions such that one will be able to penetreate their essence.

I tend to concentrate on this wisdom aspect of the path a lot, 
because kusala is great but insufficient. But also, if one has poor 
conditions, then big stocks of merit are necessary to clear away the 
obstructions brought about by unfavorable conditions, so that one may 
find favorable enough circumstances for actual development of this 
type of wisdom. And that in itself is no small feat.

 
5241 From: Alex 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 11:12pm
Subject: some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear Bruce and Robert,

   While reading those excellent posts of questions and answers, I 
came up with a very naive idea.

   Let's look at a lotus flower.

   Before being a flower, it was a little bud in the muddy water.  It 
got all of the nourishments from that muddy water.  Gradually, it 
grew stronger and stronger with its not-so-pure environment.  Then, 
it rose above the water level.  Before it knows what's happening, it 
blooms into one of the most beautiful flowers in this world.

Respectfully,
Alex Tran

 
5242 From: Erik 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 11:25pm
Subject: Re: Hello everybody, I am new here

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> This is really nice news. It sounds like the Dalai Lama might
> have preceeded you in investigating the Theravada. He is very
> understanding and evenhanded to say this.
> I guess any qualms you might have had about studying within 2
> traditions are gone, although I have a feeling that you- an
> uncommon man- had very few anyway.

It has never been a question in Tibetan Buddhism that the Theravada 
is correct Dhamma. Never. I was approaching it from that perspective 
to begin with. Also, with the intention of validating the calim that 
tnere is nothing taught there that lacks direct precedent in the 
Suttas. So far this has been confirmed in every way. The Dalai Lama 
said this exact thing again yesterday, that all the Tibetan teachings 
are points found in the Suttas which have been given greater emphasis.

To be clear, I have never had any qualms about studying Theravada, 
nor have I sought or needed anyone's approval to do so. I have always 
felt a profound connection to the Theravada (I did get my start in 
the Dhamma with Walpola Rahula's "What the Buddha Taught" after all), 
and just as great a love for it as for Tibetan Buddhism--just that my 
present accumulations mean that I have no intention of switching my 
present lineage for another. HOWEVER, that does not mean I don't want 
to understand the Theravada presentation thoroughly, and adapt what I 
am learning to forge a version of the Dhamma that works best for 
these accumulations. Which is really what each of us has to do anyway.

Thank you for your kind words, Robert, they are appreciated as always.

 
5243 From: Howard 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 7:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention? (was, Introduction and a...

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/13/01 4:48:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> In a message to Sarah and Paul you said:
> 
> >        I agree with you, Paul. I found myself
> > perplexed with regard to 
> > several points of Khun Sujin's reported by you,
> > Sarah. It seems to me that 
> > what KS is talking against, and you, Paul, are
> > talking in favor of, would 
> > usually be considered as a simple instance of right
> > intention. KS *seems* to 
> > me to be following a bit of a fatalistic,
> > volition-is-useless tack. Perhaps I 
> > miss-read her.
> 
> This is perhaps the same point that has been the
> source of some discouragement among one or two of the
> members on this list.  It is indeed a difficult one to
> get a handle on.  I am reminded that many
> non-Buddhists seem to regard the dhamma as fatalistic
> when they first hear it (just an observation, no
> comparison intended here, Howard).
> 
> To say that our intentions are likely to involve
> impure motives (eg. expectations and anticipation) or
> to be premised on an unrealistic sense of our own
> level of understanding is not to suggest that the
> activity in question should not be pursued.  It should
> I think be taken as a welcome reminder of our
> undoubted shortcomings.  We all have the tendency to
> regard a genuine interest in the dhamma as meaning
> that the accumulated akusala/latent tendencies that
> had previously driven our lives should cease to be the
> problem they were.  Yet if we think about it for a
> minute, this is unlikely to be the case. Even in a
> 'wholesome situation' there are bound to be the same
> old unwholesome tendencies manifesting, perhaps in a
> more subtle or devious form but finding an opportunity
> nonetheless.  Moments of true kusala remain relatively
> speaking few and far between (my own experience,
> anyway).
> 
> Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be fatal to
> the development of understanding or any form of kusala
> for that matter.  Could we say that a healthy
> scepticism about the quality of our mind-states is a
> useful attitude to have?
> 
> Jon
> 
================================
       I have no disagreement at all with the foregoing. If that is all that 
KS was conveying then I have no problem with what she said. (I had sensed an 
odor of fatalism and near-hopelessness in her statements, but, evidentally, I 
was mistaken.)  
       There is no question that we are carrying out our practice from within 
the midst of ignorance, and this makes that practice constantly vulnerable to 
various pitfalls, some quite subtle, and, for that very reason, all the more 
dangerous. It is the fact that we are so enmeshed in ignorance that makes 
Right View, obtained from the Buddhadhamma, such an important factor of the 
Noble Eightfold Path. A true bodhisatta can probably dispense with external 
guidance to a great extent, but there are not very many such folks in the 
world ;-), and the rest of us need the sure guidance of the Dhamma at pretty 
much every step of the way

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5244 From: Howard 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 8:17pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Introduction and a question from a new person

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 5/13/01 7:48:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah  writes:


> Howard: 
> 
> >        I agree with you, Paul. I found myself
> > perplexed with regard to 
> > several points of Khun Sujin's reported by you,
> > Sarah. It seems to me that 
> > what KS is talking against, and you, Paul, are
> > talking in favor of, would 
> > usually be considered as a simple instance of right
> > intention. KS *seems* to 
> > me to be following a bit of a fatalistic,
> > volition-is-useless tack. Perhaps I 
> > miss-read her.
> > 
> 
> Firstly, let me make it quite clear that I'm writing
> according to 'my' understanding of dhamma. I am not
> quoting Khun Sujin unless indicated.
> 
> The more understanding develops the more it begins to
> know more and more subtle clinging and wrong view. So
> what is obvious now as when Paul says 'I can
> appreciate the teaching that there is no 'self' that
> can control one's progress on the path of truth' was
> not obvious when we first heard the Buddha's
> teachings. 
> 
> Is it fatalistic and can generosity and metta be
> developed? My experience is that the more is known and
> understood about these different realities and about
> the difference between say, attachment and metta or
> about what generosity really is, the more conditions
> there will be for these qualities to be developed.
> 
> If we just plan to be more generous but know nothing
> about different mental states or about good and bad,
> how can it develop? If we just wish to be a kind
> person and read a sutta over and over again without
> understanding the special quality of metta when there
> is a chance to show kindness, will it grow?
> 
> Understanding realities as they are, as not-self, is
> not fatalistic but realistic. However, if we cling to
> the idea that a self can act or do something or have
> more good intentions at will, it will seem this way
> for sure!
> 
> When there is a moment of understanding, there is no
> doubt or idea of fatalism at that moment. It can
> develop and it does develop if there has been the
> right considering. Personally I find it really
> inspiring and encouraging and a condition to read,
> consider and develop a little more metta and dana,
> rather than the reverse.
> 
> As we all know, these points are not easy. I don't
> wish to suggest I have all or many of the answers but
> I'm just trying to share a little of how I understand
> the dhamma. I'll be glad to hear any objections!
> 
> Best regards for now,
> 
> Sarah
> 
===================================
       All that you write above makes clear and good sense to me, Sarah. 
Please see my reply I just sent of a couple minutes ago to Jon on this same 
topic.
       I particularly like your writing "Understanding realities as they are, 
as not-self, is
not fatalistic but realistic. However, if we cling to the idea that a self 
can act or do something or have more good intentions at will, it will seem 
this way for sure!" 
       I agree with this. At the same time, I would caution that this correct 
statement should not be incorrectly interpreted to imply that because there 
is no self, there also is no volition or that volition, being impersonal, is 
impotent. That would be a serious mistake, for volition, rightly directed by 
the Dhamma, is a tool to help us dig ourselves out of the mire of ignorance.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5245 From: Howard 
Date: Sun May 13, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] notes from Bkk - the hindrances

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/13/01 8:28:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah -
> > 
> > In a message dated 5/9/01 2:21:31 AM Eastern
> > Daylight Time, 
> > Sarah  writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > 3. HINDRANCE to development of satipatthana. The
> > only
> > > hindrance is the last one, ignorance. The other
> > > hindrances are to the development of samatha only.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
> > > cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response
> > 'Why
> > > not?"
> > > 
> > ==================================
> >        The above two strike me as less than optimal
> > answers. # 9 simply 
> > offers no explanation. Without some detailed
> > clarification, # 3 appears to be 
> > simply false. Sorry to be a nay-sayer, but this is
> > how I see these.
> 
> On #3, see the following excerpt from the
> Abhidhammattha Sangaha translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi
> (CMA p. 267):
> 
> "#8:  Six hindrances:  the hindrances of (1) sensual
> desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4)
> restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance.
> 
> Guide to #8:  The hindrances are so called because
> they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to the
> attainment of Nibbana.  According to the commentary
> the hindrances are mental factors which prevent
> unarisen wholesome states from arising and which do
> not allow arisen wholesome states to endure.  The
> first five hindrances are the major obstacles to the
> attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the
> major obstacle to the arising of wisdom."
> [end quote]
> 
> The view generally espoused nowadays is, I believe,
> that the hindrances are all hindrances to the arising
> of wisdom (this view is of course consistent with the
> idea that development of the jhanas is necessary for
> the attainment of the path).
> 
> Jon
> 
=======================
       Yes. And also, also, there is a difference between "major obstacle" 
and "ONLY (my emphasis) hindrance".

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5246 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 9:20am
Subject: some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear Robert et al :

Just picking up one one tiny aspect of your response...I had never 
occurred to me before that animals might have a concept of self.  
Certainly they are conditioned by desire, aversion, and ignorance, 
just as humans, and are deeply conditioned to act in "self-
preservation." But I wonder if they truly have any kind of 
an "awarness" of a (false) self? 

Paul Bail


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote> In the Mahasatipatthana sutta the 
Buddha says  
> "Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a
> bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" 
> It perhaps sounds easy enough? Just keep attention focussed on
> the body?
> The commentary explains
> 
> "In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like,
> know when they move on that they are moving. But this
> instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning
> similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to
> animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not
> knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject
> of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of
> Mindfulness."
> 
> So the awareness in satipatthana is something that is directly
> opposed to the illusion of self that has been present for all
> these aeons.

 
5247 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 10:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention?

 
  Hi Bruce
Nice to see you back again

--- bruce  wrote: > hi jon
> 
> At 16:47 2001/05/13 +0800, you wrote:
> 
> 
> > Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be fatal
> to
> > the development of understanding or any form of
> kusala
> > for that matter.  
> 
> of course! but how are we to differentiate kusala
> cetana from akusala? 
> 
> bruce

I had meant to come in on your earlier posts, but ran
out of steam last night ...

Here is a question to ponder in reply to your's:  Why
is it important to be able to make this
differentiation?

Jon
5248 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 10:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The hindrances

 
  Howard

> > On #3, see the following excerpt from the
> > Abhidhammattha Sangaha translation by Bhikkhu
> Bodhi
> > (CMA p. 267):
> > 
> > "#8:  Six hindrances:  the hindrances of (1)
> sensual
> > desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth and torpor, (4)
> > restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance.
> > 
> > Guide to #8:  The hindrances are so called because
> > they obstruct the way to a heavenly rebirth and to
> the
> > attainment of Nibbana.  According to the
> commentary
> > the hindrances are mental factors which prevent
> > unarisen wholesome states from arising and which
> do
> > not allow arisen wholesome states to endure.  The
> > first five hindrances are the major obstacles to
> the
> > attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is
> the
> > major obstacle to the arising of wisdom."
> > [end quote]
> > 
> > The view generally espoused nowadays is, I
> believe,
> > that the hindrances are all hindrances to the
> arising
> > of wisdom (this view is of course consistent with
> the
> > idea that development of the jhanas is necessary
> for
> > the attainment of the path).
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> =======================
>        Yes. And also, also, there is a difference
> between "major obstacle" 
> and "ONLY (my emphasis) hindrance".
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Good point, Howard.  Thanks for drawing my attention
to the significance of 'major obstacle'.  I intend to
follow up and see what the Visuddhimagga and others
have to say on the subject of the hindrances.

Jon


 
5249 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 2:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Good question Paul. Animals don't think, I guess, in words the
way we do but they still have concepts. Thus they know who their
children are or their mate. They get frightened if they see
enemies. 
Thinking of a soul and other complex conceptual proliferations
(papanca) is perhaps the domain of humans. But animals must
still have the core papanca which mistakes concept for reality.
Because they are animals they have no way to insight paramattha
dhammas (namas and rupas) thus they must live in a world of
concept. They still have the idea, albeit not in words, that
'this is nice, that is bad' ..'that will hurt me'.
All unenlightened beings have this basic level of delusion but
humans are able to magnify and build on this and so come up with
all types of wrongview. We can even believe that comets have
aliens on them who are going to take us to a better place. Thus
I suppose a human's degree of papanca can even be more than
animals. 
Humans also have the possiblity of learning to see beyond the
shadow world of concepts and so can differentiate concept from
reality, and this is what satipatthana gradually accomplishes.

robert
--- Paul Bail wrote:
> Dear Robert et al :
> 
> Just picking up one one tiny aspect of your response...I had
> never 
> occurred to me before that animals might have a concept of
> self.  
> Certainly they are conditioned by desire, aversion, and
> ignorance, 
> just as humans, and are deeply conditioned to act in "self-
> preservation." But I wonder if they truly have any kind of 
> an "awarness" of a (false) self? 
> 
> Paul Bail
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote> In the Mahasatipatthana sutta
> the 
> Buddha says  
> > "Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a
> > bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" 
> > It perhaps sounds easy enough? Just keep attention focussed
> on
> > the body?
> > The commentary explains
> > 
> > "In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the
> like,
> > know when they move on that they are moving. But this
> > instruction on the modes of deportment was not given
> concerning
> > similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging
> to
> > animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not
> > knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a
> subject
> > of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of
> > Mindfulness."
> > 
> > So the awareness in satipatthana is something that is
> directly
> > opposed to the illusion of self that has been present for
> all
> > these aeons.
> 



 
5250 From: bruce   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention?

 
  hi jonathan

thanks for a sharp reply....


At 10:52 2001/05/14 +0800, you wrote:
> Hi Bruce
> Nice to see you back again
> 
> --- bruce  wrote: > hi jon
> > 
> > At 16:47 2001/05/13 +0800, you wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be fatal
> > to
> > > the development of understanding or any form of
> > kusala
> > > for that matter.  
> > 
> > of course! but how are we to differentiate kusala
> > cetana from akusala? 
> > 
> > bruce
> 
> I had meant to come in on your earlier posts, but ran
> out of steam last night ...
> 
> Here is a question to ponder in reply to your's:  Why
> is it important to be able to make this
> differentiation?

well, for a start, it would certainly help to know what to cultivate and
what to avoid, re Dhammapada 14, 183:

"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind -- this is
the teaching of the Buddhas."

bruce

 
5251 From: craig garner   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 4:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear Robert, I have a few questions why do Buddhists bow down at the feet of
a Master? or Guru? Why must the be a sign of respect and humbleness? What
could be achieved by this?

Best Wishes Craig

 
5252 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear craig,
I guess everyone has a different idea about this. In Theravada
Buddhism buddhist usually bow three times when they enter a
Dhamma hall. In Thailand usually in front of the Buddha image.
And often when we go to meet the monks we bow down too. 
The monks are the representative of the ariyan sangha and should
be respected for their confidence in the Dhamma and their
development of many wholesome qualities.
The buddha image is a reminder of the Buddha and we bow down as
an outward sign of our great respect for his unlimited wisdom
and compassion. While we do so we may be focused in a wholesome
way on these virtues and so the mind is kusala.
I think the idea of a guru or master is not how we should see
our teachers of today. The Buddha was the great teacher or guru
but those who come after should be respected as followers of the
buddha who can show us what the buddha taught. 
I read that in burma in the old days the monks used to preach
holding a large fan obscuring their faces so that the listeners
would focus on the message, not the person speaking it.
 
I'd be interested to know what other members think on this
issue.
robert
--- craig garner  wrote:
> Dear Robert, I have a few questions why do Buddhists bow down
> at the feet of
> a Master? or Guru? Why must the be a sign of respect and
> humbleness? What
> could be achieved by this?
> 
> Best Wishes Craig
> 



 
5253 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 6:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana

 
  Dear Howard & Num,

Back to the questions on Cetasikas. 

for anyone new to the list, cetasikas are the mental
factors which accompany the citta (consciousness) at
each moment.

There are 7 cetasikas that always arise with every
citta. these are called the 'universals'.
          ===========================

The 7 universals are:

1. Phassa (contact)
2. Vedana (feeling
3. Sanna (perception)
4. Cetana (volition)
5. Ekaggata (concentration)
6. Jivitindriya (vitality)
7. Manasikara (attention)

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
--- Howard wrote:
>        One more point: There are certain universal
> factors which occur in any 
> act of discernment/consciousness such as phassa
> (contact), viriya (energy), 
> and sa~n~na (marking/recognizing). It almost seems
> that the co-occurrence of 
> such universal factors, as a group, constitutes by
> itself, the 
> citta/vi~n~nana. Most specifically, what I wonder
> about here is what can be 
> the difference between phassa and vi~n~nana; there
> hardly seems a be a hair's 
> difference betwen the two.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
I'd like to consider Num's question at the same time:
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Num:This a follow-up for cetasika question.  What is
the difference between 
ekaggata and manasikara cetasika??

You mentioned about phassa cetasika, I don't know
where to look for a 
detailed explanation.  
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Firstly, as before, I highly recommend "Cetasikas' by
Nina Van Gorkom (distributed by Wisdom bks I think).
She includes a lot of details. Most the references and
further details about the cetasikas can be found in
the visuddhimagga, Atthasalani and also Dhammasangani.

I would like to quote one paragraph from Nina's book
(p69) because I think it gives a much neater
explanation of the universals at work than I could
give. In this case, seeing-consciousness is the
vinnana or citta, the 'leader' in experiencing the
visible object. Remember the 'five
pairs'(dvipancavinnana i.e. seeing, hearing, tasting,
touching and body consciousness), are ONLY accompanied
by the universals and not by other cetasikas:

'When seeing-consciousness arises, each of the
'universals' which accompanies it performs its own
function.  Phassa which accompanies
seeing-consciousness is eye-contact
(cakkhu-samphassa).  It contacts visible object.  When
there is eye-contact there is the coinciding of
eye-base, visible object and seeing-consciousness. 
Vedana, which is in this case indifferent feeling,
experiences the 'taste' of visible object.  Sanna
'marks' and remembers visible object.  Cetana
coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas.
since seeing-consciousness is vipakacita, cetana
merely coordinates, it does not 'will' kusala or
akusala.  Ekaggata performs its function of focusing
on visible object;  it does not focus on any other
object.  Jivitindriya sustains citta and the
accompanying cetasikas until they fall away. 
manasikara 'drives' citta and the accompanying
cetasikas towards visible object. 
Seeing-consciousness needs the accompanying
'universals' in order to cognize visible object;  it
could not arise and cognize its object without the
assistance of the accompanying cetasikas'.
                ======================
As Num pointed out(thanks Num) in the following quote,
phassa plays a very important role as a condition for
the citta to experience the object:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
In Milinda-panha book II, page 92 R.Davids 1925

Reverend Sir, what is the distinguishing
characteristic of contact (phassa)?
Touch, O king.
But give me an illustration.
It is as when two rams are butting together, O king. 
The eye should be 
regarded as one of those two, the form (object) as the
other, and the contact 
as the union of the two.
Give me further explanation
It is as when the two cymbals are clashed together.
The one is as the eye, 
the other as the object, and the junction of the two
is like contact.
Very good Nagasena.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

At each moment of citta, the phassa which accompanies
it is different. So eye-contact is not the same as
ear-contact and neither are the same as what we
understand conventionally as physical contact.

There was some discussion on dsg about the order of
the cetasikas given in paticca-samuppada and Dan
quoted from Narada's "Manual of Abhidhamma' which
discussed with a quote from the Atthasalani how "it is
not valid to say that 'this' arises first, 'that'
afterwards.' In fact the mental states are coesixtent
and 'it was also permissable to bring it in
thus:--There are feeling and contact, perception and
contact, feeling, volition and contact, there are
consciousness and contact, feeling, perception,
volition, initial application of mind.' "
               =====================

Interestingly, the Atthaslani (107), besides giving a
good analogy of a pillar for phassa, also discusses
why it is the first cetasika described (accompanying
cittas):

"But why is contact mentioned here first?  Because of
its being the first incidence of consciousness on an
object, and arises touching the object.  Therefore it
is mentioned first.  Touching by contact,
consciousness experiences by feeling, perceives by
perception, wills by volition.  Hence it has been
said:- 'bhikkhus, touched one feels, touched one
perceives, touched one wills.'<Sam Nik 1V 68>.
Further: just as in a palace a pillar is the strong
support to the rest of the structure, just as beams,
cross-beams, wing-supports, roof, rafters,
cross-rafters, neck-pieces arwe bound to the pillar,
fixed on the pillar, so is contact a strong support to
the co-existent and associated states.  It is like the
pillar, and the remaining states are like the rest of
the structure."
               =================

I think that phassa is a very difficult object for
awareness to be aware of. However this theoretical
understanding of the different cetasikas helps to
break down any illusion of self. Cetana, ekaggata and
manasikara arise with every citta. Thus they can be
kusala, akusala, vipaka (as in seeing) and kiriya,
depending on what 'jati'(nature) the citta is. We
begin to see, I think, that the ideas we have about
intention or attention, for example, are very
different from these realities which arise with the
citta as a result of so many different conditions.

Phassa has the function of ''coinciding' (the physical
base, object and consciousness' (Vis). Manasikara has
the function of 'joining (yoking) associate states
tothe object'(Vis), while ekaggata has 'the welding
together of the coexistent states as function' (Atth).

For awareness to grow, I don't think it's important to
pin-point the differences or to determine exactly
which cetasika is appearing now. This is bound to be
thinking only. However, it is important to understand
directly that these realities are namas which
experience an object.  There is no self to perform any
of their functions!

Best wishes for now! Num, sorry if ekaggata and
manasikara got short-changed! You're welcome to ask
for 'better value'!

Sarah

            ==========================





 
5255 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  --- bruce  wrote:
> thanks for your reply robert.  i am still not sure how one
> actually is to
> go about studying dhammas arising at the six dvara, so perhaps
> another
> question, open to all of course:
> 
> how does one know whether awareness of what is being noticed
> arises with
> panna or sati, or without?
> 
____________________________
Dear bruce,
This is the sort of question that we need the whole tipitaka to
answer but just a little..
Firstly, I think we should bear in mind that what we are trying
to understand is "the way things are" at this moment. Thus the
process is not really one of trying to change things or get
special states of mind or even to be calm. Dhammas are appearing
all the time: colour, seeing, sound, hearing, taste, tasting,
lust, lust, kindness, painful feeling, pleasant feeling, neutral
feeling, thinking, aversion. But they are obscured by avijja,
ignorance, and so they are misapprehended as permanent, self,
pleasant. Satipatthan gradually wears away this veil.
If there is satipatthana the khandas - consciousness, feeling,
sanna, sankhara and rupa are not grasped as me or mine or
permananent. Whichever of the khandas is being insighted at that
moment is not seen as my khanda but there is awareness of its
characteristic with some degree of detachment. It is just as a
scientist might look at a rock from the moon. Or as in one sutta
where the buddha pointed out some people adding grass and sticks
to a fire and asked the monks if they felt any attachment to
those sticks that were being burned. they said "No, why should
we, they are not ours or part of us". he said "and so it is
monks that the khandas are not you or yours". 
We can see that since we began our buddhist studies there is
more understanding and a little more detachment; however, there
is bound to be thinking mixed in with moments of awareness and
so it is hard to estimate how much is intellectual and how much
is direct understanding. 
When we are talking to someone are we lost in concept is or is
there also sometimes a little investigation of the
characteristic of sound  or the feelings that are arising?
Knowing that this investigation may be done with lobha(CRAVING)
or panna(wisdom) helps one to be awake to either; but
sometimes/often? we can't be sure which it was. Khun Sujin would
probably say: 'if it is not clear,  develop it until it becomes
clear.' 
Now we are thinking about Dhamma but also there must be seeing
and colour and so the difference between thinking and seeing can
be known. But if we try to force sati or catch these realities
we get it wrong and make ourselves tense.
Even a little insight makes life more understandable but it is
so difficult to really understand all these different dhammas,
it must take much time. 
Mike wrote me a note last week saying he had been feeling a lot
of aversion to someone but then he remembered that there is only
namas and rupas, thus what was there to be averse with, Sound or
colour? Even just reflecting in this wise way removes anger.
Seeing it at deeper levels must be more calming. Still even
sotapanna and sakadagami have dosa (aversion)because their
insight isn't perfected, so we don't have to feel bad if we are
not perfect models of Buddhist saints.
robert


 
5256 From: Herman 
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Hi everyone,

There is at least a tenth of an inch difference between being and 
knowing, and therefore they are worlds apart.

Being requires no effort, no input. In practise, any imagined effort 
or imagined input will create a reflexive, self-based, partial and 
false reality.

Knowing is reflexive being, a replay with commentary using freeze 
frames and slo mo.

Whatever happens at the gates requires no intervention, no analyis. 
Suchness is excellent.

Beyond , beyond ............
no words no meaning no being
blissssssssss


This is probably not doctrinally correct, but experience precedes 
classification of experience (theory) by at least a tenth of an inch.

Now does samatha precede vipasanna or vice versa or .... 

As long as you're thinking about it it doesn't really matter, coz it 
won't be relevant.


With lovingkindness

Herman



--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Bruce,
> this is the million dollar question. I'll leave it to other
> wiser members for now and maybe have a comment or two later.
> robert
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > thanks for your reply robert.  i am still not sure how one
> > actually is to
> > go about studying dhammas arising at the six dvara, so perhaps
> > another
> > question, open to all of course:
> > 
> > how does one know whether awareness of what is being noticed
> > arises with
> > panna or sati, or without?
> > 
> > bruce
> > 

 
5257 From: craig garner   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Thanks Robert that was a lovely heartly explanation, and I appreciate your
answer. With  mindfullnes we should know when to bow down. I feel it is a
matter of respect, rather than worship. So I bow down to you with metta
Craig.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc;
Re: noting "others" (?)

 
5258 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 10:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] noting "others" (?)

 
  "In this direct awareness the nature of both the phenomena and the
awareness can be seen by the "experiencer"." [Joyce]

You are enlightened, Joyce.

mudita,
des



>From: "Joyce Short" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] noting "others" (?)
>Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:10:27 -0400
>
>
> >> <<<<
> >> 6. Rob & Num were asking about what is meant by
> >> 'contemplating the EXTERNAL mental objects'. This
> >> refers to awareness of thinking (one's 'own').
> >> Thinking can think about 'external objects' and take
> >> them for being something as wrong view has not been
> >> eradicated.
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >>  So it does not mean anohet's another person's citta
> >> or thought and feeling.
> >> It still means our own mental processes which think
> >> of external object??
>
>Contemplation of the body, sensations, mind (mental states) and mental
>objects (mental contents) are the Four Foundations within "this full fathom
>long body."
>
>"Contemplating the body IN the body...the sensations IN the 
>sensations..etc.
>What is to be practiced is pure, non-reactive mindfulness i.e. as clear and
>full an awareness as possible (ardently and clearly comprehending) of
>whatever is present NOW in the area selected for observation, without going
>off into a  tangeant into other more or less relevent mental associations
>(feelings, thoughts, value judgments, imaginings)  All noted in ones own
>body-mind continuum only.
>
>"Fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself 
>to
>a train of thought connected to the body; fare along contemplating the
>sensations in the sensations....the mind in the mind...,metal objects in
>mental objects, but do not apply yourself to the train of thought connected
>with sensations...the mind...mental objects. -Dantabhumisutta (M.125)When
>
>So  - all investigation is into one's own package of body-mind only.  This
>is done ardently, not with a great deal of tension and effort, but
>"ardently" in the full meaning of this word.  Think of really being close
>enough with the other/object to close the gap and then be one/unity) 
>Clearly
>comprehendending - getting the practice really clear. See each arising
>really clearly what ever it may be.  What is an "object?" What is mental
>content?  And how does one note?  Here one notices keenly, sharply like an
>arrow shot to its target. Noting the object AS it occurs.  Thus mind is not
>going off into tangental thinking. ie.  noting rising of abdomen  (mental
>associating ...."hmm, wonder if Im doing this right? Hmm, breath seems
>shallow to day, wonder if Im sick"...and so on) What is happening to the
>object one is noting? and so on. Is it staying around? Not?
>
>So, constant awareness, moment to moment, whatever one is doing and with an
>interested, alert, welcoming attitude.
>
>Contemplation of "others mental processes" is actually, "imagining,
>imagining". Thinking about external objects or internal objects is
>"thinking, thinking" the focus of attention is attending here. The purpose
>is to gain complete, immediate and direct awareness of all phenomena as 
>they
>arise. In this direct awareness the nature of both the phenomena and the
>awareness can be seen by the "experiencer".
>
>Thus you will see for yourself..."Only when you know for yourselves: "These
>things are unwholesome and lead to harm and suffering...and these things 
>are
>wholesome... and lead to welfare and happiness, THEN you should abandoned
>(the unwholeseome things) then you should practice and dwell upon the
>wholesome things." (A.3.65)
>
>Metta,
>
>Joyce
>


 
5259 From: Desmond Chiong   
Date: Mon May 14, 2001 10:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention? (was, Introduction and a question from a new person)

 
  Your own mindfulness, through practice of vipassana meditation; not someone 
else.

karuna,
des


>From: bruce 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention? (was, 
>Introduction and a question from a new person)
>Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:13:18 +0900
>
>hi jon
>
>At 16:47 2001/05/13 +0800, you wrote:
>
>
> > Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be fatal to
> > the development of understanding or any form of kusala
> > for that matter.
>
>of course! but how are we to differentiate kusala cetana from akusala?
>
>bruce
>


 
5260 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 7:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana

 
  One small correction:

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote: 

> ......... Remember the 'five
> pairs'(dvipancavinnana i.e. seeing, hearing,
> tasting,
> touching and body consciousness), 

This should have read:

............Remember the 'five pairs'(dvipancavinnana
i.e. seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and
body-consciousness),

These cittas are vipaka cittas that can be either
kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome). Hence the
'five pairs'.

Sarah


 
5261 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 8:58am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  --- craig garner  wrote:
> With  mindfullnes we should know when to bow down. I
> feel it is a
> matter of respect, rather than worship. So I bow down to you
> with metta
> Craig.
> ----- 
Thank you Craig,
And I bow down to you with respect and metta.
robert


 
5262 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 3:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: notes from Bkk- Kom & Num

 
  Dear Kom,

Good to see you back in good form!

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for following up.  I still don't think K.
> Num's question was 
> answered (unless K. Num says otherwise!).  

Hmmmmm, well, Num wondered:

>>  'Is hair, eye, or skin color is result of
> > kamma.  Or when it's said 
> > that to be born with good looking appearance is a
> > result of kamma.  If kamma 
> > can be cause of only 9 kammaja-rupa as above, how 
> you
> > explain it?'.

The point is that it is not only the  9 kammaja rupa
that are conditioned by kamma, but also the other
rupas that arise with them at these times. The 9
kammaja rupa ONLY arise from kamma as samutthana.

As we know, we can speculate for ever about exactly
what conditions are at work at any given moment and
your comments below are all very pertinent in this
regard. You may wish to take this up further in India,
but I wonder if it isn't in danger of becoming 'an
imponderable'? What is important is what can be
experienced at this moment and how the knowledge helps
this I think. So now seeing sees visible object and
because of the sanna (perception) and thinking there
is the idea of a good-looking person or good skin
colour. Like you say, many conditions work together to
affect the rupas which we take for the hair colour at
this moment including kamma and ahara and utu. 

> My understanding is that each rupa kalapa that we
> may consider "our" 
> rupa has one of the following as samuthana:
> 1) Kamma 
> 2) Utu 
> 3) Ahara
> 4) Citta 

yes!
 
> a) It is exceedingly difficult (impossible for me!)
> to differentiate among = 
> these rupas.  For example, when we see the vanna
> that "is part of" our 
> hand, which samuthana does it have?

One reason it is exceedingly difficult (read
impossible) to differentiate between the samuthanas
and the the various rupas which make up 'our hand' is
because what can be known directly is only that which
is experienced. So seeing can be known, vanna (visible
object) can be known while looking at 'the hand'.
Thinking can be known. Even hardness/softness, motion
and heat/cold can be known while looking at it.

You have studied more than any of us about the complex
conditions at play in order for that visible object to
be experienced at that very moment and how different
it is from the visible object at the next moment.
Knowing the realities is what is important here I
feel.
 
> b) In the human plane, each one of us has only 7
> types of kalapas that 
> has Kamma as the samuthana.  This counts out the
> Jivithindriya kalapa 
> (even though all other 8 kalapas also have
> Jivithindriya rupa), and one of =
> 
> the Bhava Kalapa (unless you are of two sexes)..

yes!
 
> c) Out of the seven, 5 occur at very specific places
> in our body.  The 5 
> includes: eye sense, ear sense, smell sense, taste
> sense, and hadaya-
> rupa.  The other two including Bhava rupa and
> Kaya-pasada rupa are 
> spreaded all over your body, internal and external.

yes!
 
> d) The speculation of how Kamma can influence one's
> look is via the two 
> rupas that are spreaded throughout your body.  
> Although a hair 
> probably mostly comprises of Utuja-rupa, but in the
> beginning when 
> there are still "live" cells, its looks may be
> highly influenced by Kamma-
> rupas.  Furthermore, some of the continuing Utuja
> rupas have, as 
> samuthana, the utu rupa that is part of the kamma
> kalapa.

The point here was that the kalapa also consists of
other rupas (including vanna) which are also
determined by kamma and support and influence each
other.
> 
> e) One's look is not influenced by Kamma alone.  For
> example, Buddha 
> is supposed to have unparalleled beauty.  However,
> when he was going 
> through dukkha-kiriya-practice, he ate so little
> that he was no longer 
> beautiful.  His Ahara-ja rupa cancelled out the
> beauty in the Kammaja-
> rupa.  Some people don't look so pretty when they
> get angry or greedy.  
> Some people don't look so pretty when they are cold
> or hot.

Yes, I agree with most your points. So many different
conditions at work. 

Of course, if there is no seeing now, no visible
object, no sanna about the object and no thinking
about how pretty or ugly someone is!

Kom, I know you'll let me know if I've missed the
point or got the details wrong. This is a tricky area
for me and as i mentioned KS didn't elaborate, I
suspect because it seemed more academic and less
concerned with the development of satipatthana.

Sarah

 p.s. 
Num, when I'm feeling brave and have 'caught up', I'll
also try to get back to your other 2 earlier questions
in this thread....about the twins and being woke up in
the night (if Kom already did so, perhaps you can
share that first!)




 
5263 From: bruce   
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 7:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  hi robert

thanks so much for your "just a little"...i guess i have some pretty strong
lobha for your explanations, and hope others on the list find them as lucid
and helpful as i do....

re:
> Knowing that this investigation may be done with lobha(CRAVING)
> or panna(wisdom) helps one to be awake to either; but
> sometimes/often? we can't be sure which it was. Khun Sujin would
> probably say: 'if it is not clear,  develop it until it becomes
> clear.' 

but that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except nibbana are
conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then thinking one
can develop anything seems like an exercise in micchaditthi....

can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for lack of a
better f-word) "fate"?  

howard, i know you've considered this quandry.....how does one reconcile
the seeming fatalism inherent in anatta 
("no-one-driving") with the fact that we are constantly urged that it is to
our benefit to develop any number of faculties ("sharp-curve-ahead!")....

curious about everyone's thoughts here...

bruce


At 05:11 2001/05/14 -0700, you wrote:
> --- bruce  wrote:
> > thanks for your reply robert.  i am still not sure how one
> > actually is to
> > go about studying dhammas arising at the six dvara, so perhaps
> > another
> > question, open to all of course:
> > 
> > how does one know whether awareness of what is being noticed
> > arises with
> > panna or sati, or without?
> > 
> ____________________________
> Dear bruce,
> This is the sort of question that we need the whole tipitaka to
> answer but just a little..
> Firstly, I think we should bear in mind that what we are trying
> to understand is "the way things are" at this moment. Thus the
> process is not really one of trying to change things or get
> special states of mind or even to be calm. Dhammas are appearing
> all the time: colour, seeing, sound, hearing, taste, tasting,
> lust, lust, kindness, painful feeling, pleasant feeling, neutral
> feeling, thinking, aversion. But they are obscured by avijja,
> ignorance, and so they are misapprehended as permanent, self,
> pleasant. Satipatthan gradually wears away this veil.
> If there is satipatthana the khandas - consciousness, feeling,
> sanna, sankhara and rupa are not grasped as me or mine or
> permananent. Whichever of the khandas is being insighted at that
> moment is not seen as my khanda but there is awareness of its
> characteristic with some degree of detachment. It is just as a
> scientist might look at a rock from the moon. Or as in one sutta
> where the buddha pointed out some people adding grass and sticks
> to a fire and asked the monks if they felt any attachment to
> those sticks that were being burned. they said "No, why should
> we, they are not ours or part of us". he said "and so it is
> monks that the khandas are not you or yours". 
> We can see that since we began our buddhist studies there is
> more understanding and a little more detachment; however, there
> is bound to be thinking mixed in with moments of awareness and
> so it is hard to estimate how much is intellectual and how much
> is direct understanding. 
> When we are talking to someone are we lost in concept is or is
> there also sometimes a little investigation of the
> characteristic of sound  or the feelings that are arising?
> Knowing that this investigation may be done with lobha(CRAVING)
> or panna(wisdom) helps one to be awake to either; but
> sometimes/often? we can't be sure which it was. Khun Sujin would
> probably say: 'if it is not clear,  develop it until it becomes
> clear.' 
> Now we are thinking about Dhamma but also there must be seeing
> and colour and so the difference between thinking and seeing can
> be known. But if we try to force sati or catch these realities
> we get it wrong and make ourselves tense.
> Even a little insight makes life more understandable but it is
> so difficult to really understand all these different dhammas,
> it must take much time. 
> Mike wrote me a note last week saying he had been feeling a lot
> of aversion to someone but then he remembered that there is only
> namas and rupas, thus what was there to be averse with, Sound or
> colour? Even just reflecting in this wise way removes anger.
> Seeing it at deeper levels must be more calming. Still even
> sotapanna and sakadagami have dosa (aversion)because their
> insight isn't perfected, so we don't have to feel bad if we are
> not perfect models of Buddhist saints.
> robert
 
 

5264 From: Herman 
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Hi Bruce, Robert et al,

--- bruce  wrote:
> hi robert
> 
> 
> howard, i know you've considered this quandry.....how does one 
reconcile
> the seeming fatalism inherent in anatta 
> ("no-one-driving") with the fact that we are constantly urged that 
it is to
> our benefit to develop any number of faculties ("sharp-curve-
ahead!")....
> 
> curious about everyone's thoughts here...
> 
> bruce
> 
The social reality of mankind is the most significant reality that 
mankind contends with. It is the driving force in our continuing 
evolution, man learning to cope with man, ad infinitum.

Language is a social medium. It is a means of exchange between human 
beings. It is social glue.

Human beings uttering speech or thinking speech (thinking) whilst 
they are alone or not attempting to communicate with another human 
being is a neuroticism, behaviour taken out of a relevant context and 
thus a dysfunctional activity.

Thought, unspoken speech, implies society. 

Reality at a social level is real enough. Society is not 
comprehended, however, in terms of atoms. Neither are atoms 
comprehended in terms of society. 

"Nibbana" as a subject of conversation is a social reality.
"Cittas" as a subject of conversation are a social reality.
"Nama/Rupa" as a subject of conversation are social realities.

Fatalism / free will are social stories, the subject of chattering, 
chattering, chattering.

The awareness of ultimate realities does not arise in a social 
setting.
The people who have told you about Nibbana have left wives, children, 
fathers, mothers, houses, property. They have isolated themselves 
from all interaction with others for days, months, years. They have 
left society. They have stilled the social mind, they have eliminated 
the social conditioning.

There is only one voice. It will be heard when there is silence.


With lovingkindness


Herman

 
5265 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 10:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear bruce,
Your interest encourages me to write some more. Anatta is the
core of the Buddha's teaching and so is hard to fathom.
Visudd. XViii31 "The mental and physical (nama and rupa) are
really here, but here no human being is to be found, for it is
void and merely fashioned like a doll;just suffering piled up
like grass and sticks"
Do we think in this way yet? It is not so easy even to reflect
in such a manner; hence we should expect that deeper insight
into nama and rupa takes time.
xix19 "there is no doer of a deed or one who reaps the fruit;
phenomena alone flow on- no other view than this is right"

XX47 talks about sankhara khanda (the agrregate of formations)
this includes all cetasikas except feeling and sanna. It
includes sati, intention, effort, metta, dosa etc.
"they are void of the possibilty of any power being exercised
over them, they are therefore not-self beacuse void, because
owner less, because unsusceptible to the weilding of power, and
because of precluding a self".
This last quote may disturb some because if nothing is
controllable then "what the hell can we do?!!!" This sort of
reaction is rooted in "we" - it comes from an assumption of self
and control. 
Now for the good news: vis.xvi "there IS a path but no goer".

This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is
not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in
one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in
another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it
is itself conditioned. 
What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the
Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of
merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). Why are we so
interested in Dhamma? Why isn't the leader of the Taliban
interested; surely he makes effort, surely he has the intention
to do what is best? Why do some people hear Dhamma but find it
unappealing while others can't get enough even after hearing it
just once? Why are some initially not interested and then later
they get interested and surpass in understanding those who
studied much longer? It is clear that there must be reasons for
all this; and the Dhamma explains it all. 
 
You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except
nibbana
> are
> conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then
> thinking one
> can develop anything seems like an exercise in
> micchaditthi....

_________________
Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the
idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self
view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good
intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees
the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that
arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into
self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or
towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done.   

____________________________

> 
> can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for
> lack of a
> better f-word) "fate"? ""
__________________
Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did
this that or the other nothing would make a thread of
difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing
would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not
get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the
Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions.
It is true that some are past conditions but there are also
present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism
and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who
can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way
and is neither.
When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a
condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on
the understanding of the listener.
I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we
have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me
when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized
how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became
frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop
them - but without wisdom.
It was because I didn't understand
anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be
quickly got  rid of.  That when desire arises it is by
conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it
demonstrates the truth of anatta.   Now my focus
is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at
all doing anything. 
This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima
Nikaya 148
Chachakka Sutta
The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known.
The six external media should be known. The six classes of
consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should
be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six
classes of CRAVING should be known."

Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I
think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the
stage where all craving is gone but first it should be
understood. If we are afraid of it (as I was) then it is not
possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can
be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens
of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true
characteristic can be seen. 

Later the sutta says:

"'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said.
In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms
there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three
is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is
feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is
craving." and it repeats for the other senses. 

"If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be
tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned.
And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the
self.' So the eye is not-self. ......
If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be
tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned.
And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the
self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self,
consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is
not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. "


robert



5266 From: Alex 
Date: Tue May 15, 2001 10:47pm
Subject: some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear Robert,

   Wonderful as usual! Sadhu...

Alex

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear bruce,
> Your interest encourages me to write some more. Anatta is the
> core of the Buddha's teaching and so is hard to fathom.
> Visudd. XViii31 "The mental and physical (nama and rupa) are
> really here, but here no human being is to be found, for it is
> void and merely fashioned like a doll;just suffering piled up
> like grass and sticks"
> Do we think in this way yet? It is not so easy even to reflect
> in such a manner; hence we should expect that deeper insight
> into nama and rupa takes time.
> xix19 "there is no doer of a deed or one who reaps the fruit;
> phenomena alone flow on- no other view than this is right"
> 
> XX47 talks about sankhara khanda (the agrregate of formations)
> this includes all cetasikas except feeling and sanna. It
> includes sati, intention, effort, metta, dosa etc.
> "they are void of the possibilty of any power being exercised
> over them, they are therefore not-self beacuse void, because
> owner less, because unsusceptible to the weilding of power, and
> because of precluding a self".
> This last quote may disturb some because if nothing is
> controllable then "what the hell can we do?!!!" This sort of
> reaction is rooted in "we" - it comes from an assumption of self
> and control. 
> Now for the good news: vis.xvi "there IS a path but no goer".
> 
> This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is
> not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in
> one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in
> another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it
> is itself conditioned. 
> What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the
> Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of
> merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). Why are we so
> interested in Dhamma? Why isn't the leader of the Taliban
> interested; surely he makes effort, surely he has the intention
> to do what is best? Why do some people hear Dhamma but find it
> unappealing while others can't get enough even after hearing it
> just once? Why are some initially not interested and then later
> they get interested and surpass in understanding those who
> studied much longer? It is clear that there must be reasons for
> all this; and the Dhamma explains it all. 
>  
> You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except
> nibbana
> > are
> > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then
> > thinking one
> > can develop anything seems like an exercise in
> > micchaditthi....
> 
> _________________
> Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the
> idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self
> view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good
> intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees
> the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that
> arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into
> self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or
> towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done.   
> 
> ____________________________
> 
> > 
> > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for
> > lack of a
> > better f-word) "fate"? ""
> __________________
> Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did
> this that or the other nothing would make a thread of
> difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing
> would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not
> get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the
> Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions.
> It is true that some are past conditions but there are also
> present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism
> and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who
> can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way
> and is neither.
> When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a
> condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on
> the understanding of the listener.
> I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we
> have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me
> when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized
> how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became
> frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop
> them - but without wisdom.
> It was because I didn't understand
> anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be
> quickly got  rid of.  That when desire arises it is by
> conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it
> demonstrates the truth of anatta.   Now my focus
> is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at
> all doing anything. 
> This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima
> Nikaya 148
> Chachakka Sutta
> The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known.
> The six external media should be known. The six classes of
> consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should
> be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six
> classes of CRAVING should be known."
> 
> Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I
> think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the
> stage where all craving is gone but first it should be
> understood. If we are afraid of it (as I was) then it is not
> possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can
> be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens
> of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true
> characteristic can be seen. 
> 
> Later the sutta says:
> 
> "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said.
> In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms
> there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three
> is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is
> feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is
> craving." and it repeats for the other senses. 
> 
> "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be
> tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned.
> And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
> follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
> wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the
> self.' So the eye is not-self. ......
> If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be
> tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned.
> And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
> follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
> wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the
> self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self,
> consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is
> not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. "
> 
> 
> robert
> 


 
5267 From: bruce   
Date: Wed May 16, 2001 6:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  what a great reply robert, thanks so much....very much worth re-reading few
times...

bruce




At 07:05 2001/05/15 -0700, you wrote:
> Dear bruce,
> Your interest encourages me to write some more. Anatta is the
> core of the Buddha's teaching and so is hard to fathom.
> Visudd. XViii31 "The mental and physical (nama and rupa) are
> really here, but here no human being is to be found, for it is
> void and merely fashioned like a doll;just suffering piled up
> like grass and sticks"
> Do we think in this way yet? It is not so easy even to reflect
> in such a manner; hence we should expect that deeper insight
> into nama and rupa takes time.
> xix19 "there is no doer of a deed or one who reaps the fruit;
> phenomena alone flow on- no other view than this is right"
> 
> XX47 talks about sankhara khanda (the agrregate of formations)
> this includes all cetasikas except feeling and sanna. It
> includes sati, intention, effort, metta, dosa etc.
> "they are void of the possibilty of any power being exercised
> over them, they are therefore not-self beacuse void, because
> owner less, because unsusceptible to the weilding of power, and
> because of precluding a self".
> This last quote may disturb some because if nothing is
> controllable then "what the hell can we do?!!!" This sort of
> reaction is rooted in "we" - it comes from an assumption of self
> and control. 
> Now for the good news: vis.xvi "there IS a path but no goer".
> 
> This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is
> not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in
> one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in
> another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it
> is itself conditioned. 
> What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the
> Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of
> merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). Why are we so
> interested in Dhamma? Why isn't the leader of the Taliban
> interested; surely he makes effort, surely he has the intention
> to do what is best? Why do some people hear Dhamma but find it
> unappealing while others can't get enough even after hearing it
> just once? Why are some initially not interested and then later
> they get interested and surpass in understanding those who
> studied much longer? It is clear that there must be reasons for
> all this; and the Dhamma explains it all. 
>  
> You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except
> nibbana
> > are
> > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then
> > thinking one
> > can develop anything seems like an exercise in
> > micchaditthi....
> 
> _________________
> Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the
> idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self
> view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good
> intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees
> the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that
> arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into
> self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or
> towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done.   
> 
> ____________________________
> 
> > 
> > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for
> > lack of a
> > better f-word) "fate"? ""
> __________________
> Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did
> this that or the other nothing would make a thread of
> difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing
> would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not
> get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the
> Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions.
> It is true that some are past conditions but there are also
> present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism
> and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who
> can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way
> and is neither.
> When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a
> condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on
> the understanding of the listener.
> I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we
> have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me
> when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized
> how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became
> frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop
> them - but without wisdom.
> It was because I didn't understand
> anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be
> quickly got  rid of.  That when desire arises it is by
> conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it
> demonstrates the truth of anatta.   Now my focus
> is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at
> all doing anything. 
> This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima
> Nikaya 148
> Chachakka Sutta
> The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known.
> The six external media should be known. The six classes of
> consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should
> be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six
> classes of CRAVING should be known."
> 
> Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I
> think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the
> stage where all craving is gone but first it should be
> understood. If we are afraid of it (as I was) then it is not
> possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can
> be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens
> of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true
> characteristic can be seen. 
> 
> Later the sutta says:
> 
> "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said.
> In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms
> there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three
> is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is
> feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is
> craving." and it repeats for the other senses. 
> 
> "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be
> tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned.
> And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
> follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
> wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the
> self.' So the eye is not-self. ......
> If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be
> tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned.
> And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
> follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
> wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the
> self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self,
> consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is
> not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. "
> 
> 
> robert

 
5268 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 16, 2001 6:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] some questions on practice: Re: Kusala etc; Re: noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear Alex and Bruce,
thanks for your kind words and always looking forward to your
valuable input.
robert
--- bruce  wrote:
> what a great reply 


 
5269 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed May 16, 2001 10:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention?

 
  Bruce

Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you.  I
have limited time during the week to do any posting.

I did not mean to suggest in my post that knowing the
difference between kusala and akusala mind-states was
something that we can or should be doing.  My point
was that we should avoid the danger of thinking we can
when in fact we can't.

In your earlier posts you asked about studying the
present moment, and investigating the dhammas at the
six doors.  As Robert so well explained, studying the
present moment involves the study of any reality that
appears at the present moment.  In this regard, mind
states are no more suitable or valuable an object
than, say, sound;  any reality is equally valuable as
object of some awareness of the present moment.

We may be inclined to think that mind-states are
particularly worth knowing because then we can have
more kusala.  This is true if by kusala one means less
attachment to sensuous objects, less dosa etc.  But it
is not the right condition for developing kusala of
the level of satipatthana, the kind of kusala that
helps to eradicate wrong view.

Jon


--- bruce  wrote: > hi
jonathan
> 
> thanks for a sharp reply....
> 
> 
> At 10:52 2001/05/14 +0800, you wrote:
> > Hi Bruce
> > Nice to see you back again
> > 
> > --- bruce  wrote: > hi
> jon
> > > 
> > > At 16:47 2001/05/13 +0800, you wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be
> fatal
> > > to
> > > > the development of understanding or any form
> of
> > > kusala
> > > > for that matter.  
> > > 
> > > of course! but how are we to differentiate
> kusala
> > > cetana from akusala? 
> > > 
> > > bruce
> > 
> > I had meant to come in on your earlier posts, but
> ran
> > out of steam last night ...
> > 
> > Here is a question to ponder in reply to your's: 
> Why
> > is it important to be able to make this
> > differentiation?
> 
> well, for a start, it would certainly help to know
> what to cultivate and
> what to avoid, re Dhammapada 14, 183:
> 
> "To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to
> cleanse one's mind -- this is
> the teaching of the Buddhas."
> 
> bruce
> 



 
5270 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 16, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Hi, all -

       I was reading a newspaper article that referred to a "Sherlock 
Holmes"story entitled 'Silver Blaze', which got me to thinking. The story 
involved the theft of a horse. A main clue for Sherlock Holmes was a dog that 
had been on the scene but apparently had *not* barked. Holmes inferred that 
the thief must have been known by the dog, else he would have barked. Thus, 
the NON-occurrence of an event, an ABSENCE, was what was important. Holmes 
would not have inferred this had he not known that barking was to be expected.
       This reminded me of the many times in various suttas that the Buddha 
pointed out that something was "not evident" or "not seen" as a means of 
saying that there is no such thing. To realize that something is "not 
evident" or "not seen" it is not good enough to see what *is* present, but 
also to see that none of what is present is that "missing thing". In order to 
do that, a clear, well understood *concept* of the missing something is 
required. To get down to the main point: When engaged in vipassana 
meditation, it is not enough, it would seem, to clearly see what elements do 
arise, but also to see quite clearly that none of these conditioned dhammas 
satisfy the *concept* of self. One has to have it clear in mind what 'self' 
is in order to observe that it is "not evident" and "not seen". One needs to 
know that whatever is 'self' is permanent, unconditioned, satisfactory, etc.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5271 From: Herman 
Date: Thu May 17, 2001 8:35am
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Hi Howard and everyone,

That is a very interesting issue you raise here. I have wondered 
along similar lines, and have not yet gotten anywhere with it.

If I could piggyback what I believe to be a relevant question onto 
your post?

Can the absence or lack  of a specific cause be a contributing factor 
to a result?

For example, is it meaningful to say that ignorance arises due to 
lack of insight? Or what about vice versa, does insight arise due to 
lack of ignorance? Darkness through absence of light? Light through 
absence of darkness?

Is it reasonable to say that I am alive because I didn't get knocked 
over by either the car that was at the intersection, or all the cars 
that weren't there?

With Kind Regards

Herman









--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, all -
> 
>        I was reading a newspaper article that referred to 
a "Sherlock 
> Holmes"story entitled 'Silver Blaze', which got me to thinking. The 
story 
> involved the theft of a horse. A main clue for Sherlock Holmes was 
a dog that 
> had been on the scene but apparently had *not* barked. Holmes 
inferred that 
> the thief must have been known by the dog, else he would have 
barked. Thus, 
> the NON-occurrence of an event, an ABSENCE, was what was important. 
Holmes 
> would not have inferred this had he not known that barking was to 
be expected.
>        This reminded me of the many times in various suttas that 
the Buddha 
> pointed out that something was "not evident" or "not seen" as a 
means of 
> saying that there is no such thing. To realize that something 
is "not 
> evident" or "not seen" it is not good enough to see what *is* 
present, but 
> also to see that none of what is present is that "missing thing". 
In order to 
> do that, a clear, well understood *concept* of the missing 
something is 
> required. To get down to the main point: When engaged in vipassana 
> meditation, it is not enough, it would seem, to clearly see what 
elements do 
> arise, but also to see quite clearly that none of these conditioned 
dhammas 
> satisfy the *concept* of self. One has to have it clear in mind 
what 'self' 
> is in order to observe that it is "not evident" and "not seen". One 
needs to 
> know that whatever is 'self' is permanent, unconditioned, 
satisfactory, etc.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, 
a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond 
Sutra)                    
>             

 
5272 From: Howard 
Date: Thu May 17, 2001 6:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Co...

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 5/16/01 8:37:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Herman writes:


> Hi Howard and everyone,
> 
> That is a very interesting issue you raise here. I have wondered 
> along similar lines, and have not yet gotten anywhere with it.
> 
> If I could piggyback what I believe to be a relevant question onto 
> your post?
> 
> Can the absence or lack  of a specific cause be a contributing factor 
> to a result?
> 
> For example, is it meaningful to say that ignorance arises due to 
> lack of insight? Or what about vice versa, does insight arise due to 
> lack of ignorance? Darkness through absence of light? Light through 
> absence of darkness?
> 
> Is it reasonable to say that I am alive because I didn't get knocked 
> over by either the car that was at the intersection, or all the cars 
> that weren't there?
> 
> With Kind Regards
> 
> Herman
> 
=============================
       What you write about here is related, tangentially, to what I wrote. 
It picks up on one element of what I was discussing, and brings it to the 
fore. I think the question you raise is interesting. If formulated carefully, 
I think that the answer is probably a positive one; that is, yes, there are 
negative causes. Not only that. There are stranger things - for example, the 
future can affect the present!! What do I mean by that? Well, for example, in 
many languages, how one pronounces part of a sentence may depend on what will 
be following it! Likewise, the tone in one part of a piece of music can be 
affected by what is to follow! Causality is fascinating and rather complex I 
think.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5273 From: Herman 
Date: Thu May 17, 2001 0:09pm
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Hi Howard,

I find the issue you have raised fascinating, and very diffficult to 
get my head around. I am going to sit and think for a while. 
Hopefully you or some other bright spark on the list can illuminate 
further.

I get stuck on "not". Negating is a purely mental function. There are 
no nots out there, knocking at the gates. Yet understanding, insight 
seems to depend as much on what is there as what is absent, as you 
point out.

Thanks and Regards


Herman

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, all -
> 
>        I was reading a newspaper article that referred to 
a "Sherlock 
> Holmes"story entitled 'Silver Blaze', which got me to thinking. The 
story 
> involved the theft of a horse. A main clue for Sherlock Holmes was 
a dog that 
> had been on the scene but apparently had *not* barked. Holmes 
inferred that 
> the thief must have been known by the dog, else he would have 
barked. Thus, 
> the NON-occurrence of an event, an ABSENCE, was what was important. 
Holmes 
> would not have inferred this had he not known that barking was to 
be expected.
>        This reminded me of the many times in various suttas that 
the Buddha 
> pointed out that something was "not evident" or "not seen" as a 
means of 
> saying that there is no such thing. To realize that something 
is "not 
> evident" or "not seen" it is not good enough to see what *is* 
present, but 
> also to see that none of what is present is that "missing thing". 
In order to 
> do that, a clear, well understood *concept* of the missing 
something is 
> required. To get down to the main point: When engaged in vipassana 
> meditation, it is not enough, it would seem, to clearly see what 
elements do 
> arise, but also to see quite clearly that none of these conditioned 
dhammas 
> satisfy the *concept* of self. One has to have it clear in mind 
what 'self' 
> is in order to observe that it is "not evident" and "not seen". One 
needs to 
> know that whatever is 'self' is permanent, unconditioned, 
satisfactory, etc.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, 
a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond 
Sutra)                    
>             

 
5274 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 17, 2001 3:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.- Erik

 
  Dear Erik,

I've got several posts of yours on front of me which
I'd like to comment on. If you don't mind, I think
I'll use a number and point system.

1. Firstly I'd like to add that I really appreciated
your comments and notes from the D.L.'s visit to Salt
Lake. It sounded really excellent. I hope your mother
found it useful too. I was also impressed that you
were reading the Visuddhimagga on the plane!
          ----------
2. I thought Joyce asked some valid questions but I
felt your responses (below) did not give justice to
your very proficient debating skills! I would also
like to point out that until right understanding is
well developed, there cannot be any direct experience
of dukkha in essence!

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Joyce: > Who? is working diligently, becoming aware of
its arising etc.

Eric: Who indeed? And yet, there is the experience of
dukkha.

J. >  And what is
> arising whatever surely just arises, endures and
then dissolves on 
its own
> accord?  

E. Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha.

J. > Who is placing a value judgment on any arising
and when is this
> judgment noted. Surely all this is occurring after
the event?  Is 
this
> noted? How is one noting "conceptuality" without
clinging?

E. Nevertheless, there is the experience of dukkha.
etc
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  
          ----------
3. You mention (in the same post) that 'in nibbana
there is no duaality nor dukkha...' but I beleive the
rest of us were talking about NOW....! The same
applies to samatha and jhana.. what about now? Is
there any understanding of samatha now?
          ----------
4. Eric, you wrote the following in response to my
'note' about samatha development:

Sarah: >This is the way that samtha is developed,
> not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an
object
> like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> more discussion about breath as object of samatha.

Eric: I have to disagree with this. Mere attention to
the breath is 
sufficient to engender samatha--if one can maintain
that attention  
properly. All one needs to do is remain concentrated
on the breath 
long enough, without too much tension, gently bringing
the mind back 
again and again if it wanders, and it just works
(assuming one has 
pacified really coarse junk through sila prior to
this). Eventually 
things settle, and awareness becomes concentrated.
This serves as the 
foundation for the jhanas. Once samatha is established
this way then 
upcara is nearly automatic, because the mind "unifies"
in 
concentration. It is "as easy as falling off a log"
(to quote a 
Tibetan commentator) if done this way. <end quote>
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

This is interesting and curious. Firstly, samatha
bhavana is a way of cultivating kusala (skilful)
cittas (consciousness). The calm which is developed in
samatha has to be wholesome and yet as Bruce and
others have recently pointed out, it is extremely
difficult to know exactly when the citta is kusala and
when it is akusala. For example, indifferent feeling
can arise with attachment and always arises with
ignorance. So only right understanding can know the
difference.

So, only if there is right understanding of the
charcteristic of calm and of the meditation subject
are there conditions for samatha to develop. When one
tries hard to concentrate, there can so easily be
attachment, aversion or ignorance. There may even be
wrong view if one thinks of it as one's own
concentration. In fact I would say that if samatha is
being developed, there is no need to think of
concentration. It (ekaggagata cetasika) arises with
every citta anyway.

We know from the Visuddhimagga that breath as an
object of samatha development is extremely difficult.
If it is not developed in the right way, it cannot be
considered as samatha bhavana. If we wish to watch it,
it will be clinging for sure. I have not read anything
in the Tipitaka to support the idea that the
development of any kind of kusala is 'as easy as
falling off a log' at any stage. My experience,
studies and any understanding suggest quite the
contrary!
          ----------

5. Eric, I'm now skipping to the end of your post as I
think the vipaka question was dealt with for now by
you and Rob and this is in danger of turning into
another over-long post!

> My opinion would be that worrying a lot about
> lokuttarra panna--if 
> there is not skill enough for at least upcara
> samadhi--is a waste of 
> time other than for getting rid of the grossest
> intellectual flavors 
> of miccha-ditthi (which of course is always
> beneficial). To do 
> emphasize wisdom at the expanse of merit (or vice
> versa) is like 
> trying to fly with a broken wing. The Buddha's
> formualation, in 
> order, consists of dana, sila, samadhi, panna. Until
> the sila part is 
> well-established, there is no hope of samadhi.
> Likewise, without 
> samadhi, there is no hope of concentrating the mind
> enough to 
> thoroughly penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas.
> 
> Thoughts, comments?

I assure you that I spend no time at all 'worrying
about lokuttara panna'!! My interest (theoretical and
practical) is very much related to realities at this
moment!!

With this in mind,  I am very interested to hear and
understand more about all kinds of kusala as well as
any other realities appearing now. I am also very
interested in the development of any kind of kusala
that there is an opportunity for at this moment. As we
know, only a sotapanna keeps even the 5 precepts
perfectly. Does this mean there should be no
consideration or development of samatha or vipassana
until this time? How is the very highly developed
wisdom of the sotapanna developed if there isn't a
start now? All realities are conditioned and anatta as
you know. If there is the idea of selecting a kind of
kusala to develop now or any idea of 'ordering'
realities, doesn't this show the clinging to self?
          ----------> 

> As always, appreciate the wonderful dialogues here.
>
Me too! You keep us all busy and challenged here, Eric
and I really am grateful for that!! thank you also for
reading my notes from Bangkok so carefully which I had
thought would only be of interest to a very few.

Best wishes as always,

Sarah

p.s. I don't think you replied to my (some time ago)
last 'present moment' post to you..I take it that
meant you were in full agrement??? ;-))

          ----------




 
5275 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri May 18, 2001 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Howard

An interesting idea, and I admire the lateral thinking
that led you to make this connection.

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, all -
> 
>        I was reading a newspaper article that
> referred to a "Sherlock 
> Holmes"story entitled 'Silver Blaze', which got me
> to thinking. The story 
> involved the theft of a horse. A main clue for
> Sherlock Holmes was a dog that 
> had been on the scene but apparently had *not*
> barked. Holmes inferred that 
> the thief must have been known by the dog, else he
> would have barked. Thus, 
> the NON-occurrence of an event, an ABSENCE, was what
> was important. Holmes 
> would not have inferred this had he not known that
> barking was to be expected.
>        This reminded me of the many times in various
> suttas that the Buddha 
> pointed out that something was "not evident" or "not
> seen" as a means of 
> saying that there is no such thing. To realize that
> something is "not 
> evident" or "not seen" it is not good enough to see
> what *is* present, but 
> also to see that none of what is present is that
> "missing thing". 

But I would question what follows next.

In order to 
> do that, a clear, well understood *concept* of the
> missing something is 
> required. To get down to the main point: When
> engaged in vipassana 
> meditation, it is not enough, it would seem, to
> clearly see what elements do 
> arise, but also to see quite clearly that none of
> these conditioned dhammas 
> satisfy the *concept* of self. One has to have it
> clear in mind what 'self' 
> is in order to observe that it is "not evident" and
> "not seen". One needs to 
> know that whatever is 'self' is permanent,
> unconditioned, satisfactory, etc.

It's not so much that something is missing, or that
for example one needs to have a clear idea of what the
concept of self is.  The problem is rather that we
have a firmly entrenched but incorrect (and often
unrecognised) idea that needs to be exposed to the
light of insight.  The 'missing something' is never
more than a thought-moment away.

No doubt there is a wealth of material in the Sherlock
Holmes series that could be made relevant.  A
dispeller of delusion, in his own way.

Jon


 
5276 From: Howard 
Date: Fri May 18, 2001 8:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/18/01 2:37:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> An interesting idea, and I admire the lateral thinking
> that led you to make this connection.
> 
> --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all -
> > 
> >        I was reading a newspaper article that
> > referred to a "Sherlock 
> > Holmes"story entitled 'Silver Blaze', which got me
> > to thinking. The story 
> > involved the theft of a horse. A main clue for
> > Sherlock Holmes was a dog that 
> > had been on the scene but apparently had *not*
> > barked. Holmes inferred that 
> > the thief must have been known by the dog, else he
> > would have barked. Thus, 
> > the NON-occurrence of an event, an ABSENCE, was what
> > was important. Holmes 
> > would not have inferred this had he not known that
> > barking was to be expected.
> >        This reminded me of the many times in various
> > suttas that the Buddha 
> > pointed out that something was "not evident" or "not
> > seen" as a means of 
> > saying that there is no such thing. To realize that
> > something is "not 
> > evident" or "not seen" it is not good enough to see
> > what *is* present, but 
> > also to see that none of what is present is that
> > "missing thing". 
> 
> But I would question what follows next.
> 
> In order to 
> > do that, a clear, well understood *concept* of the
> > missing something is 
> > required. To get down to the main point: When
> > engaged in vipassana 
> > meditation, it is not enough, it would seem, to
> > clearly see what elements do 
> > arise, but also to see quite clearly that none of
> > these conditioned dhammas 
> > satisfy the *concept* of self. One has to have it
> > clear in mind what 'self' 
> > is in order to observe that it is "not evident" and
> > "not seen". One needs to 
> > know that whatever is 'self' is permanent,
> > unconditioned, satisfactory, etc.
> 
> It's not so much that something is missing, or that
> for example one needs to have a clear idea of what the
> concept of self is.  The problem is rather that we
> have a firmly entrenched but incorrect (and often
> unrecognised) idea that needs to be exposed to the
> light of insight.  The 'missing something' is never
> more than a thought-moment away.
> 
> No doubt there is a wealth of material in the Sherlock
> Holmes series that could be made relevant.  A
> dispeller of delusion, in his own way.
> 
> Jon
> 
=================================
       I'd like to comment on your statement: 

       "It's not so much that something is missing, or that for example one 
needs to have a clear idea of what the concept of self is.  The problem is 
rather that we have a firmly entrenched but incorrect (and often 
unrecognised) idea that needs to be exposed to the light of insight.  The 
'missing something' is never more than a thought-moment away."

       What I meant was that our idea of 'self' is inchoate, generally not 
being much more than a *sense* of 'self'. Actually, when you say that we have 
an entrenched, incorrect, and often unrecognized idea that needs to be 
brought to light, I don't think that what we are thinking is all that 
different! 
       Without becoming clear in our own mind exactly what we *mean* by 
'self', we make ourselves even more vulnerable to our grasping after some 
anchor. In that case, no matter how many dhammas we see to be impermanent, 
unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial, we still grasp for something 
*else* that can be a "center", an "anchor", a "safe haven", perhaps some 
unseen, indescribable Brahman, for example. As I see it, we won't be willing 
to thoroughly LET GO until we are fully sure that there IS no 'self' to cling 
to. To see that something does not exist, we must know clearly what we mean 
by such a thing, else we continue to hope, search, to cling, because our 
deep-seated tendencies are exactly that, deep-seated.

With metta,
Howard
       


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5277 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Howard

>        What I meant was that our idea of 'self' is
> inchoate, generally not 
> being much more than a *sense* of 'self'. Actually,
> when you say that we have 
> an entrenched, incorrect, and often unrecognized
> idea that needs to be 
> brought to light, I don't think that what we are
> thinking is all that 
> different! 
>        Without becoming clear in our own mind
> exactly what we *mean* by 
> 'self', we make ourselves even more vulnerable to
> our grasping after some 
> anchor. In that case, no matter how many dhammas we
> see to be impermanent, 
> unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial, we
> still grasp for something 
> *else* that can be a "center", an "anchor", a "safe
> haven", perhaps some 
> unseen, indescribable Brahman, for example. As I see
> it, we won't be willing 
> to thoroughly LET GO until we are fully sure that
> there IS no 'self' to cling 
> to. To see that something does not exist, we must
> know clearly what we mean 
> by such a thing, else we continue to hope, search,
> to cling, because our 
> deep-seated tendencies are exactly that,
> deep-seated.

I think the texts may give a more direct relationship
between the development of understanding of the
characteristic of realities and the erosion of the
concept of �self� than you suggest (if I have
understood you correctly, Howard).  

As I recall, the simile is given of light dispelling
darkness etc., ie. the one necessarily results in the
other.  It is not as though we have to develop panna
*and* learn to let go of the idea of self � the latter
is a necessary and inevitable consequence of the
former.  Panna is a total antidote!

Sorry, but no references to hand.  Can anyone assist
here?

Jon


 
5278 From: Howard 
Date: Sat May 19, 2001 9:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/18/01 10:09:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> >        What I meant was that our idea of 'self' is
> > inchoate, generally not 
> > being much more than a *sense* of 'self'. Actually,
> > when you say that we have 
> > an entrenched, incorrect, and often unrecognized
> > idea that needs to be 
> > brought to light, I don't think that what we are
> > thinking is all that 
> > different! 
> >        Without becoming clear in our own mind
> > exactly what we *mean* by 
> > 'self', we make ourselves even more vulnerable to
> > our grasping after some 
> > anchor. In that case, no matter how many dhammas we
> > see to be impermanent, 
> > unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial, we
> > still grasp for something 
> > *else* that can be a "center", an "anchor", a "safe
> > haven", perhaps some 
> > unseen, indescribable Brahman, for example. As I see
> > it, we won't be willing 
> > to thoroughly LET GO until we are fully sure that
> > there IS no 'self' to cling 
> > to. To see that something does not exist, we must
> > know clearly what we mean 
> > by such a thing, else we continue to hope, search,
> > to cling, because our 
> > deep-seated tendencies are exactly that,
> > deep-seated.
> 
> I think the texts may give a more direct relationship
> between the development of understanding of the
> characteristic of realities and the erosion of the
> concept of ‘self’ than you suggest (if I have
> understood you correctly, Howard).  
> 
> As I recall, the simile is given of light dispelling
> darkness etc., ie. the one necessarily results in the
> other.  It is not as though we have to develop panna
> *and* learn to let go of the idea of self – the latter
> is a necessary and inevitable consequence of the
> former.  Panna is a total antidote!
> 
> Sorry, but no references to hand.  Can anyone assist
> here?
> 
> 
====================================
       I *do* understand what you are saying, and you might be entirely 
correct. I can certainly conceive ot it being quite possible that even 
without a clear, fully conscious understanding of the deep-seated concept of 
'self', the direct experiencing of conditioned dhammas as not remaining, 
ungraspable, unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial would lead to a 
disenchantment and a distaste sufficient to cause a radical letting go of 
them and a consequent moment of path consciousness which would then uproot 
certain defilements, *remove* the belief in 'self', and seriously *shake* the 
sense of 'self'.
       In hypothesizing that it might be necessary to have a fully clear 
understanding of the concept of 'self' in order to disabuse ourselves of it I 
was extrapolating from more mundane areas of our lives. An example, albeit 
dramatic and outlandish, of my thinking would be: To establish that the Loch 
Ness Monster does not exist, one could thoroughly dredge the Loch with the 
most sophisticated equipment, and discover that there was no Loch Ness 
Monster to be found. That, however, would work only if one knew what the Loch 
Ness monster was supposed to look like! The same applies to looking for the 
yeti in the Himalayas. One has to know that it's not supposed to just be a 
giant sherpa in a fur coat, for example, in order to know that there is no 
yeti to be found. One would really need to know that it is supposed to be an 
ape-like hominid. Perhaps, however, such methodological extrapolation isn't 
valid in the case of such a fundamental matter as 'self'. 
       I share in your wish for someone to address this issue on the basis of 
material drawn from the Tipitaka.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         
 
5279 From: Howard 
Date: Sat May 19, 2001 8:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Some thoughts on Absences and the Importance of Concepts

 
  Hi again, Jon -

In a message dated 5/19/01 1:37:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard 
writes:


> I *do* understand what you are saying, and you might be entirely 
> correct. I can certainly conceive ot it being quite possible that even 
> without a clear, fully conscious understanding of the deep-seated concept 
> of 
> 'self', the direct experiencing of conditioned dhammas as not remaining, 
> ungraspable, unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial would lead to a 
> disenchantment and a distaste sufficient to cause a radical letting go of 
> them and a consequent moment of path consciousness which would then uproot 
> certain defilements, *remove* the belief in 'self', and seriously *shake* 
> the 
> sense of 'self'.
> 
=============================
       One more point I'd like to make: Even if having the concept of 'self' 
held completely clearly and up-front in the mind is not *necessary* to free 
ourselves from delusion, it is still *useful* to not keep that concept as an 
unexamined one, but rather to examine it carefully (as with all our 
concepts), making it as clearly understood as possible. Clarity at all 
levels, including the conceptual level, is important I think. In fact, 
wouldn't clarity at the conceptual level be an aspect of "clear 
comprehension"?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5280 From: Erik 
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.- Erik

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

Hi Sarah,

> 1. Firstly I'd like to add that I really appreciated
> your comments and notes from the D.L.'s visit to Salt
> Lake. It sounded really excellent. I hope your mother
> found it useful too. I was also impressed that you
> were reading the Visuddhimagga on the plane!

My mom did find it useful, I think. At least she knows this isn't some
bizarre nut-cult after hearing the teachings on compassion and seeing 
the response (sold out for months in advance, for example). She said 
that what she heard from "Ethics for a New Millenium," his talk of 
that evening, perfectly resonated with her views, and has even said 
she's proud of my choosing this path, in spite of her beliefs. So in 
all, I'd say that things went quite well. Re: Visuddhimagga, I can 
thank Robert for giving me the inspiration to read it cover to cover, 
which I am doing now.

> 3. You mention (in the same post) that 'in nibbana
> there is no duality nor dukkha...' but I beleive the
> rest of us were talking about NOW....! The same
> applies to samatha and jhana.. what about now? Is
> there any understanding of samatha now?

Understanding "now" in which sense? Namas and rupas that arise in the 
moment? In the Tibetan teachings, for example, such practice is said 
to only lead to a lower level of insight, something termed "subtle 
impermenance," which is distinguished from lokuttara nana. This 
knowledge is considered a precursor for lokuttara nana.

This understanding is not only restricted to the Tibetans, it seems. 
Thanissaro Bikkhu notes that:

"This line of questioning is part of a strategy leading to a level of 
knowledge called "knowing and seeing things as they actually are 
(yatha-bhuta-�ana-dassana)," where things are understood in terms of 
a fivefold perspective: their arising, their passing away, their 
drawbacks, their allure, and the escape from them -- the escape, 
here, lying in dispassion. 

"Some commentators have suggested that, in practice, this fivefold
perspective can be gained simply by focusing on the arising and 
passing away of these aggregates in the present moment; if one's 
focus is relentless enough, it will lead naturally to a knowledge of 
drawbacks, allure, and escape, sufficient for total release. The 
texts, however, don't support this reading, and practical experience 
would seem to back them up. As MN 101 points out, individual 
meditators will discover that, in some cases, they can develop 
dispassion for a particular cause of stress simply by watching it 
with equanimity; but in other cases, they will need to make a 
conscious exertion to develop the dispassion that will provide an 
escape. The discourse is vague -- perhaps deliberately so -- as to 
which approach will work where. This is something each meditator must 
test for him or herself in practice."

>           ----------
> 4. Eric, you wrote the following in response to my
> 'note' about samatha development:
>
> Sarah: >This is the way that samtha is developed,
> > not by wishing to develop it or by selecting an
> object
> > like breath for development. There was also a  lot
> > more discussion about breath as object of samatha.
>
> Eric: I have to disagree with this. Mere attention to
> the breath is
> sufficient to engender samatha--if one can maintain
> that attention
> properly. All one needs to do is remain concentrated
> on the breath
> long enough, without too much tension, gently bringing
> the mind back
> again and again if it wanders, and it just works
> (assuming one has
> pacified really coarse junk through sila prior to
> this). Eventually
> things settle, and awareness becomes concentrated.
> This serves as the
> foundation for the jhanas. Once samatha is established
> this way then
> upcara is nearly automatic, because the mind "unifies"
> in
> concentration. It is "as easy as falling off a log"
> (to quote a
> Tibetan commentator) if done this way. <end quote>
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
>
> This is interesting and curious. Firstly, samatha
> bhavana is a way of cultivating kusala (skilful)
> cittas (consciousness). The calm which is developed in
> samatha has to be wholesome and yet as Bruce and
> others have recently pointed out, it is extremely
> difficult to know exactly when the citta is kusala and
> when it is akusala. For example, indifferent feeling
> can arise with attachment and always arises with
> ignorance. So only right understanding can know the
> difference.
>
> So, only if there is right understanding of the
> charcteristic of calm and of the meditation subject
> are there conditions for samatha to develop. When one
> tries hard to concentrate, there can so easily be
> attachment, aversion or ignorance.

Other than noting potential pitfalls in meditation, I am not sure 
what you're getting at here. I am assuming anyone with appropriate 
instruction and diligence can avoid basic mistakes and make progress 
with samatha, even samatha cultivated via anapanasati. Especially 
with this practice. Therefore I think cultivating samatha, for 
anyone, at any stage of development, is an unalloyed good thing, even 
if the view is imperfect to start with (as it is, by definition, for 
everyone entering the path). 

> We know from the Visuddhimagga that breath as an
> object of samatha development is extremely difficult.

What the Visuddhimagga actually says (VIII.155) is that "mindfulness 
of breathing as a meditation subject--which is foremost among the 
meditation subjects of all Buddhas, Paccekhabuddhas, and disciples as 
a basis for attaining distinction and abiding in bliss here & now--is 
not easy to develop without leaving the neighborhood of villages, 
which resound with the noises of women, men, elephants, horses, etc., 
noise being a thorn to jhana, whereas the forest away from a village 
a meditator can at his ease set about discering this meditation 
subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of breathing; and 
then, by making that same jhana a basis for comprehension of 
formations, he can reach arahatship, the highest fruit."

I do not see here where it says that breath as object of samatha is 
very difficult, unless one has too many noisy distractions present. 
Even this, from my own experience, is less an obstacle than I had 
assumed before, once I was able to find a couple of other practices 
to help pacify hindrances, such as Tibetan tummo yoga (khumbaka 
breath-retention), which unlocked jhana meditation for me within days 
of taking it up, because it engendered enough bliss and pliancy that 
I was able to concentrate on the aramanna rather than sitting in 
constant discomfort and distraction. With the addition of one 
variable--tummo--the body and mind filled with piti enough to 
overcome other hindrances. I am sure there are other techniques 
that can effect similar results. This is in spite of living on a 
noisy NYC block, with the obligatory sirens, car-alarms, drunken 
yobs on weekends. I realize this is only one data-point, but it is 
also a part of concrete experience in the very mileu many of us find 
ourselves in these days.

Also, if anapanasati is so difficult as a meditation subject, then 
why did the Buddha teach it as the first meditation in the 
Satipatthana Sutta? Given how widespread teachings on this are, I 
surmise that the breath is perhaps among the easiest meditation 
subjects, certainly the most versatile, if one is interested in 
gaining proficiency in samatha & jhanas. When it is believed "too 
difficult," this vicikicca directly discourages taking this practice 
up, even to test it out. 

"Too difficult" for whom? Unless this practice has been well-tried, 
it is impossible to know if this is a practice that will bear fruit 
for oneself or not. Given its versatility and its prominence as the 
central subject of meditation in Zen and Tibetan systems, as well as 
being the FIRST meditation subject taught in the Satipatthana Sutta, 
I think it bears thorough investigation. I think it highly unwise to 
cast it off simply because of the view, apropos of nothing in the 
Suttas, that it might be a bit too difficult. And as far as I know, 
the Buddha never said bhavana and acquiring wisdom were easy. Like 
everything in the Dhamma, this too is ehipassika. It can be tested 
out with a bit of confidence it can work and enough persistence to 
really give it a go.

> If it is not developed in the right way, it cannot be
> considered as samatha bhavana. If we wish to watch it,
> it will be clinging for sure. I have not read anything
> in the Tipitaka to support the idea that the
> development of any kind of kusala is 'as easy as
> falling off a log' at any stage. My experience,
> studies and any understanding suggest quite the
> contrary!

The "falling off a log" bit is about effort in meditation itself. 
It's to counter the lute-string that's too tight.

> With this in mind,  I am very interested to hear and
> understand more about all kinds of kusala as well as
> any other realities appearing now. I am also very
> interested in the development of any kind of kusala
> that there is an opportunity for at this moment. As we
> know, only a sotapanna keeps even the 5 precepts
> perfectly. Does this mean there should be no
> consideration or development of samatha or vipassana
> until this time? How is the very highly developed
> wisdom of the sotapanna developed if there isn't a
> start now? All realities are conditioned and anatta as
> you know. If there is the idea of selecting a kind of
> kusala to develop now or any idea of 'ordering'
> realities, doesn't this show the clinging to self?

I think my entire thesis here has been on the importance of 
cultivating kusala and wisdom right here and now in appropriate 
balance, beginning with dana, then sila, then bhavana. I base this on 
the "Five Paths" teachings in my school, which is in turn based on 
the 37 bodhipakkiya-dhammas:

The first path is the "Path of Accumulation," where one has developed 
satipatthana and the four right exertions, accumulated sufficient 
merit to become ready for the "Path of Preparation." The "Path of 
Preparation" is where all the jhana factors are brought to 
completion, resulting in the ability to attain jhanas. Then, after 
this, because of this, one attains the "Path of Seeing" (sotapatti-
magga-nana), where all the seven bojjhangas are brought to 
completion. The next is the "Path of Meditation," where the eight 
path-factors are brought to maturity. The last is the "Path of No 
More Learning," where all afflictions have been done away with and 
Buddhahood and omniscience attained. In this presentation, there is 
very much a linear notion, but also a holistic one, in that these are 
not strictly linear, yet, by practicing in the appropriate order with 
the appropriate emphasis at the right time and place, all the path-
factors are brought to completion.

 
5281 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 10:55am
Subject: Re: understanding the "self" concept

 
  Dear Howard,
I have enjoyed reading your many posts and wish to address the question of
whether it is necessary to understand to any degree the exact nature of the
"self" concept before one can experience satipatthana. Though I have only
been studying with Acharn Sujin only a short time and am not well versed in
the Tipitika, I have come to realize that when panna does indeed arise,
there is not only a gradual "letting go" of the "self" concept, but there is
also a deeper and increasing realization of that which we had been "taking"
for self all along and of the various ways it is so deeply entrenched.
Therefore, when panna arises it also gives us an increased understanding of
the nature and extent of the "self" concept. So, just by being aware of the
realities as they arise, from moment to moment, as Acharn teaches, is
enough, and when the conditions are right, panna will rise and allow further
understanding of the nature of "self" and the gradual eroding of the concept
will occur.

With metta,
Betty

 
5282 From: Howard 
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 9:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: understanding the "self" concept

 
  Hi, Betty -

       Thank you! The following is very clear. Much obliged.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 5/19/01 10:55:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Bettywrites:


> Dear Howard,
> I have enjoyed reading your many posts and wish to address the question of
> whether it is necessary to understand to any degree the exact nature of the
> "self" concept before one can experience satipatthana. Though I have only
> been studying with Acharn Sujin only a short time and am not well versed in
> the Tipitika, I have come to realize that when panna does indeed arise,
> there is not only a gradual "letting go" of the "self" concept, but there is
> also a deeper and increasing realization of that which we had been "taking"
> for self all along and of the various ways it is so deeply entrenched.
> Therefore, when panna arises it also gives us an increased understanding of
> the nature and extent of the "self" concept. So, just by being aware of the
> realities as they arise, from moment to moment, as Acharn teaches, is
> enough, and when the conditions are right, panna will rise and allow further
> understanding of the nature of "self" and the gradual eroding of the concept
> will occur.
> 
> With metta,
> Betty
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5283 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 2:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] noting "others" (?)

 
  Dear Joyce,

While dsg is so quiet  I'm taking the chance to 'catch
up'. I was particularly pleased to see your
participation again after a very long break....I do
hope everything's been well with you.  You must be
well into Spring in Canada and perhaps this is the
time Canadians come out of hibernation;-))

Now to get down to one or two of your posts, I was
especially interested in this one which I'll repeat
parts of, as it was some time ago now:
> 
> "Contemplating the body IN the body...the sensations
> IN the sensations..etc.
> What is to be practiced is pure, non-reactive
> mindfulness i.e. as clear and
> full an awareness as possible (ardently and clearly
> comprehending) of
> whatever is present NOW in the area selected for
> observation, without going
> off into a  tangeant into other more or less
> relevent mental associations
> (feelings, thoughts, value judgments, imaginings) 
> All noted in ones own
> body-mind continuum only.

I'm not sure where you are quoting this from. I don't
think it was from the Dantabhumisutta. Can you give a
reference in the Tipitaka for 'the area selected for
observation' in particular, I wonder?
> 
> "Fare along contemplating the body in the body, but
> do not apply yourself to
> a train of thought connected to the body; fare along
> contemplating the
> sensations in the sensations....the mind in the
> mind...,metal objects in
> mental objects, but do not apply yourself to the
> train of thought connected
> with sensations...the mind...mental objects.
> -Dantabhumisutta (M.125)

This is a very interesting extract and it led me to
read the Dantabhumisutta (The Grade of the Tamed) more
carefully. I'll be referring to B.Bodhi's translation
in my comments. If you remember, your quotes were in
response to my 'note' about external mental objects in
the Satipatthana Sutta. So it was the development of
satipatthana that was being discussed.

In the Dantabhumisutta, the novice Aggivessana
mentions to the Buddha that Prince Jayasena doubts the
Teachings and the Buddha says it is because he is too
fond of pleasure and undisciplined and gives examples,
such as a description of catching and taming a wild
elephant and not believing the view from the top of
the mountain until one has been there because of
ignorance, which could have been told to Jayasena.

the Buddha then encourages the development of sila and
satipatthana encouraging Aggivessana to teach noble
sisciples to guard the sense doors and mind door, 'On
seeing a form with the eye, do not grasp at its signs
and features....On cognizing a mind-object with the
mind, do not grasp at its signs and features. Since if
you were to leave the mind faculty unguarded, evil
unwholesome states of covetousness and grief might
invade you, practise the way of its restraint, guard
the mind faculty, undertake the restraint of the mind
faculty'. (134)

In other words, the Buddha is encouraging the
disciples to be aware of realities appearing through
the sense and mind doors (including thinking) and to
see the danger of lobha, dosa and moha as I read it.
Furthermore a little further on, he encourages the
disciples to be aware throughout the day (and night)
during their 'daily life':

'.....when going forward and returning..when looking
ahead and looking away..when flexing and extending
your limbs...when wearing your robes and carrying your
outer robe and bowl...when eating, drinking, consuming
food, and tasting..when defacating and urinating..when
walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up,
talking, and keeping silent'. (135)

So far so good. Next is an example of just how tricky
it can be to understand suttas which may appear at
first glance to be straightforward. The disciple is
then encouraged to 'resort to a secluded resting
place' and he abandons the 5 hindrances. this could
well be talking about the attainment of the 1st jhana,
I suspect.

The sutta is unusual because it then again reverts to
the four foundations of mindfulness 'having put away
covetousness and grief for the world'. B.Bodhi says in
a footnote too, that this is 'expounded in the place
usually reserved for the four jhanas'. (136)

Only after this, do we come to the paragraph you quote
at the outset which is immediately followed by 'With
the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he
enters upon the abides in the second jhana..the third
jhana..the fourth jhana.' (This would 'fit' with my
speculative gues that it was the first jhana earlier
being discussed).

Finally, it's clear that he has attained all jhanas
and  become an arahat: ' When his concentrated mind is
thus purified..He understands 'Birth is destroyed, the
holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been
done, there is no more coming to any state of being.'
' 

'If Aggivessana, the king's elephant dies in old age
well tamed and well disciplined, then he is considered
an old elephant that has died a tamed death. 
...middle-aged elephant...young elephant...So too,..if
an elder bhikkhu dies with his taints destroyed, then
he is considered an elder bhikkhu who has died a tamed
death.....middle status.....newly ordained...'(137)

Joyce, the reason I've gone throught his interesting
sutta at some length is because sometimes when we just
quote a few lines, it's not always clear what the
context or meaning is or whether it is satipatthana or
the jhanas that are being discussed. 

A sutta like this one is not at all simple to fully
comprehend (for me) and I've probably raised more
questions than answers.  I'll certainly welcome
comments from anyone else.

Joyce, I agree with you when you say that the purpose
in satipatthana is to be aware of phenomena as they
arise (though I question the 'all' as you know!).
However, when you say later in your same post that 'in
this direct awareness the nature of both the phenomena
and the awareness can be seen by the 'experiencer',
this reminds me of a chat I had with Des. If by the
'experiencer' you mean panna (wisdom), then I agree.

> Thus you will see for yourself..."Only when you know
> for yourselves: "These
> things are unwholesome and lead to harm and
> suffering...and these things are
> wholesome... and lead to welfare and happiness, THEN
> you should abandoned
> (the unwholeseome things) then you should practice
> and dwell upon the
> wholesome things." (A.3.65)

Of course, as I know you realise, Joyce, the listeners
would understand here that the 'you' is being used in
conventional language and it is right understanding
that understands what is wholesome and to be
developed/practised and what is unwholesome and to be
abandoned.

Many thanks again for your posts. I appreciated the
chance to look at the first sutta.Sorry that mine are
all so lengthy at the moment!

Best wishes,

Sarah



 
5284 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 2:23pm
Subject: DSSF website

 
  Dear Friends,

As there are quite a few members who read Thai, I'm passing on the info below about the new 
Foundation website:
http://www.buddhadhamma.com/

Ivan or Betty may give info about the English part in due course;-) Sarah

Ell wrote: THE WEB SITE IS ON LINE NOW IN THAI, PLEASE TELL JON THAT WE ARE 
PLANNING TO 
PROGRAMM
THAI FONTS IN SO THAT PEOPLE CAN DOWNLOAD THE FONTS INTOTHEIR COMPUTER 
AND 
BE ABLE TO
READ DHAMMA IN THAI. AND JON READ THAI SO HOPEFULLY  IT WILL BE BENEFIT 
JON 
AS WELL.
THE ENGLISH SITE IS COMMING BUT IT WILL TAKE TIME BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE 
THAT 
MANY PEOPLE TO HELP.



 
5285 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 9:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] How 'right' is our intention?

 
  Bruce

I would like to supplement my post of last week on this topic.

Only panna can know by direct experience whether a moment of consciousness is kusala or akusala. 
For the most part, that panna does not arise, since it has not been developed (ie. in previous
lives).  What we think of as knowing akusala is really 'knowing' it by its signs.  When there is
anger, for example, there is obvious agitation, unpleasant feeling, perhaps loud speech or some
other manifestation.  It is by these signs that we know it, not by the direct experience of the
citta (moment of consciousness) by panna.

This is not particularly a problem when it comes to coarse akusala which is by definition readily
apparent (to others if not always ourselves!).  But less course akusala, let alone the relatively
few moments of real kusala we have in a day, cannot be 'known' in the same manner, ie. by its
signs.  Take feeling, for example.  Neutral feeling, like pleasant feeling, can arise with both
kusala and akusala moments, so this should not be taken as a 'sign' of kusala.

Does purity of motivation (eg. helping another, intending to develop metta or have more
understanding) mean that the mind-states will be kusala?  I believe not.  Even when acting with
the best of motives, there can be idea of self, pride/conceit, moments of disappointment or regret
or any other kind of akusala.  Furthermore, the purity of our motives cannot be taken for granted
in the fist place, for reasons that I think are obvious.

This is why an intention to develop more wholesomeness or to have less unwholesomeness by
'knowing' mind-states better can lead unwittingly to the development of more akusala.

The panna that can make this differentiation can of course be developed, and is certainly to be
encouraged.  But we should not think of it is simply a matter of paying attention to mind-states. 
The kusala or akuala characteristic of a citta (moment of consciousness) can be known if it
appears as object to a moment of awareness or panna arising at any time.  The conditions for this
development are the same as we have discussed in previous posts.

Jon



--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: > Bruce
> 
> Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you.  I
> have limited time during the week to do any posting.
> 
> I did not mean to suggest in my post that knowing the
> difference between kusala and akusala mind-states was
> something that we can or should be doing.  My point
> was that we should avoid the danger of thinking we can
> when in fact we can't.
> 
> In your earlier posts you asked about studying the
> present moment, and investigating the dhammas at the
> six doors.  As Robert so well explained, studying the
> present moment involves the study of any reality that
> appears at the present moment.  In this regard, mind
> states are no more suitable or valuable an object
> than, say, sound;  any reality is equally valuable as
> object of some awareness of the present moment.
> 
> We may be inclined to think that mind-states are
> particularly worth knowing because then we can have
> more kusala.  This is true if by kusala one means less
> attachment to sensuous objects, less dosa etc.  But it
> is not the right condition for developing kusala of
> the level of satipatthana, the kind of kusala that
> helps to eradicate wrong view.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> --- bruce  wrote: > hi
> jonathan
> > 
> > thanks for a sharp reply....
> > 
> > 
> > At 10:52 2001/05/14 +0800, you wrote:
> > > Hi Bruce
> > > Nice to see you back again
> > > 
> > > --- bruce  wrote: > hi
> > jon
> > > > 
> > > > At 16:47 2001/05/13 +0800, you wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Mistaking akusala for kusala would surely be
> > fatal
> > > > to
> > > > > the development of understanding or any form
> > of
> > > > kusala
> > > > > for that matter.  
> > > > 
> > > > of course! but how are we to differentiate
> > kusala
> > > > cetana from akusala? 
> > > > 
> > > > bruce
> > > 
> > > I had meant to come in on your earlier posts, but
> > ran
> > > out of steam last night ...
> > > 
> > > Here is a question to ponder in reply to your's: 
> > Why
> > > is it important to be able to make this
> > > differentiation?
> > 
> > well, for a start, it would certainly help to know
> > what to cultivate and
> > what to avoid, re Dhammapada 14, 183:
> > 
> > "To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to
> > cleanse one's mind -- this is
> > the teaching of the Buddhas."
> > 
> > bruce
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  



 
5286 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun May 20, 2001 9:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.- Erik

 
  Erik

Just a quick note on a point in your recent post to Sarah.
 
> Other than noting potential pitfalls in meditation, I am not sure 
> what you're getting at here. I am assuming anyone with appropriate 
> instruction and diligence can avoid basic mistakes and make progress 
> with samatha, even samatha cultivated via anapanasati. Especially 
> with this practice. Therefore I think cultivating samatha, for 
> anyone, at any stage of development, is an unalloyed good thing, even 
> if the view is imperfect to start with (as it is, by definition, for 
> everyone entering the path). 
> 
> > We know from the Visuddhimagga that breath as an
> > object of samatha development is extremely difficult.
> 
> What the Visuddhimagga actually says (VIII.155) is that "mindfulness 
> of breathing as a meditation subject--which is foremost among the 
> meditation subjects of all Buddhas, Paccekhabuddhas, and disciples as 
> a basis for attaining distinction and abiding in bliss here & now--is 
> not easy to develop without leaving the neighborhood of villages, 
> which resound with the noises of women, men, elephants, horses, etc., 
> noise being a thorn to jhana, whereas the forest away from a village 
> a meditator can at his ease set about discering this meditation 
> subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of breathing; and 
> then, by making that same jhana a basis for comprehension of 
> formations, he can reach arahatship, the highest fruit."
> 
> I do not see here where it says that breath as object of samatha is 
> very difficult, unless one has too many noisy distractions present. 
> Even this, from my own experience, is less an obstacle than I had 
> assumed before, once I was able to find a couple of other practices 
> to help pacify hindrances, such as Tibetan tummo yoga (khumbaka 
> breath-retention), which unlocked jhana meditation for me within days 
> of taking it up, because it engendered enough bliss and pliancy that 
> I was able to concentrate on the aramanna rather than sitting in 
> constant discomfort and distraction. With the addition of one 
> variable--tummo--the body and mind filled with piti enough to 
> overcome other hindrances. I am sure there are other techniques 
> that can effect similar results. This is in spite of living on a 
> noisy NYC block, with the obligatory sirens, car-alarms, drunken 
> yobs on weekends. I realize this is only one data-point, but it is 
> also a part of concrete experience in the very mileu many of us find 
> ourselves in these days.

At Visuddhimagga VIII, 211 it says:
"But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the
minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddha's sons are at home.  It is no trivial matter, nor can
it be cultivated by trivial persons."

It goes on to explain:  "In proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more
peaceful and more subtle.  So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here."

Putting this together with the points you rightly make in your reply above, the conditikons for
the successful development of jhana with breath as object include:
- strong mindfulness and understanding
- monk's life properly lived, and even then avoiding temples etc where other people (including
other monks) reside

What chance any ordinary guy ('trivial person') living the lay life in a big city?

BTW, there is no support in the texts for pranayama (yogic breathing) as a condiiton for samatha. 
The references in the texts to long breath and short breath etc are not references to breathing
exercises.  They are simply ways of conveying the idea that breath of any kind at any time is to
be taken as the object.

 > Also, if anapanasati is so difficult as a meditation subject, then 
> why did the Buddha teach it as the first meditation in the 
> Satipatthana Sutta? Given how widespread teachings on this are, I 
> surmise that the breath is perhaps among the easiest meditation 
> subjects, certainly the most versatile, if one is interested in 
> gaining proficiency in samatha & jhanas. When it is believed "too 
> difficult," this vicikicca directly discourages taking this practice 
> up, even to test it out. 
> 
> "Too difficult" for whom? Unless this practice has been well-tried, 
> it is impossible to know if this is a practice that will bear fruit 
> for oneself or not. Given its versatility and its prominence as the 
> central subject of meditation in Zen and Tibetan systems, as well as 
> being the FIRST meditation subject taught in the Satipatthana Sutta, 
> I think it bears thorough investigation. I think it highly unwise to 
> cast it off simply because of the view, apropos of nothing in the 
> Suttas, that it might be a bit too difficult. And as far as I know, 
> the Buddha never said bhavana and acquiring wisdom were easy. Like 
> everything in the Dhamma, this too is ehipassika. It can be tested 
> out with a bit of confidence it can work and enough persistence to 
> really give it a go.

I know this reflects the view taught by many meditation teachers nowadays, but is it supported by
the texts?

Jon




 
5287 From: Purnomo .   
Date: Mon May 21, 2001 0:15pm
Subject: send me book

 
  please, everybody I wish you help me.
I am Indonesian. My country be more poor every day. You know,  I'm going to 
learn more Buddhism. I read some books and magazines, of course, in 
Indonesian. I want to learn be more Buddhism with some books especially in 
English but I have no money. Could you help me. I wish you send me some 
books. Its FREE! Please , I really need it.

Thank you




 
5288 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 21, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] send me book

 
  Dear Purnomo,

Welcome to DSG!

As a first step, I think it would be helpful if you tell us something about your background and
interest in Buddhism.

Secondly, I suggest you look at one or two of the websites which you can find at the link below
where you can read books in English and see what you are interested in. Perhaps if you read at
least a chapter of one of Nina Van Gorkom's books and give us your comments, we can see if  one of
these would be suitable. Not everyone finds them useful.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links

This is a discussion list, so you're welcome to ask questions or make comments on dhamma.

Regards,
Sarah

One of these excellent websites is--- "Purnomo ."  wrote: > please,
everybody I wish you help me.
> I am Indonesian. My country be more poor every day. You know,  I'm going to 
> learn more Buddhism. I read some books and magazines, of course, in 
> Indonesian. I want to learn be more Buddhism with some books especially in 
> English but I have no money. Could you help me. I wish you send me some 
> books. Its FREE! Please , I really need it.
> 
> Thank you



 
5289 From: selamat   
Date: Mon May 21, 2001 9:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] send me book

 
  Dear Purnomo,
I am from Indonesia too.
Should you have any questions on Buddhism (based on Pali Canon), pls contact
me at: 08158.804805.

with metta,
selamat
----- Original Message -----
From: Purnomo . 
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:15 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] send me book


> please, everybody I wish you help me.
> I am Indonesian. My country be more poor every day. You know,  I'm going
to
> learn more Buddhism. I read some books and magazines, of course, in
> Indonesian. I want to learn be more Buddhism with some books especially in
> English but I have no money. Could you help me. I wish you send me some
> books. Its FREE! Please , I really need it.
>
> Thank you


 
5290 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon May 21, 2001 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] send me book

 
  Dear Purnomo,
I am happy to see your interest in the sublime Dhamma. I hope
you can talk with Mister Selamat who is very knowledgeable and
has long experience in Buddhism.
robert
--- selamat <wrote:
> Dear Purnomo,
> I am from Indonesia too.
> Should you have any questions on Buddhism (based on Pali
> Canon), pls contact
> me at: 08158.804805.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=246123051106207130143218213024192063039048075009077079234238077002109076219176010098180028> 
> with metta,
> selamat
> ----- 


 
5291 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott  <Moderators> 
Date: Tue May 22, 2001 3:27pm
Subject: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
> Subject: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup 
> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:13:41 +0200
> 
> Hello and may you all be well and happy.....
> 
> As promised I am back online again... I shifted to a
> new home now....
> working in Robert Bosch (Penang).... Hello and hello
> yet again.... so great
> to be back online again....
> 



 
5292 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue May 22, 2001 3:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Hi Loke,

Good to see you back after what seems like a long break! Hope you like your new home and job.
Penang must be a great place to live.....Any time for any dhamma studies recently?

I just forwarded your post from the dsgmod a/c where it ended up by mistake! From now on you can
just press the reply key to any post and it'll get to the list.

Hope to see more of you!

Sarah

p.s Pls correct me if Loke isn't your first name...(?)

Loke wrote: >
 > 
> > Hello and may you all be well and happy.....
> > 
> > As promised I am back online again... I shifted to a
> > new home now....
> > working in Robert Bosch (Penang).... Hello and hello
> > yet again.... so great
> > to be back online again....
> > 



 
5293 From: Binh 
Date: Tue May 22, 2001 5:12pm
Subject: Re: send me book

 
  --- "Purnomo ."  wrote:

> please, everybody I wish you help me.
> I am Indonesian. My country be more poor every day. You know,  I'm 
going to 
> learn more Buddhism. I read some books and magazines, of course, in 
> Indonesian. I want to learn be more Buddhism with some books 
especially in 
> English but I have no money. Could you help me. I wish you send me 
some 
> books. Its FREE! Please , I really need it.

===============================================================

BA: G'day,

You could write to the following addresses:

1) W.A.V.E.
   No. 2, Jalan Chan Ah Tong
   Off Jln Tun Sambanthan
   50470 Kuala Lumpur
   MALAYSIA

2) Buddha Education Foundation
   11F, 55 Hangchow South Road, Sec 1
   Taipei
   TAIWAN - R.O.C.

Or send me an email, at: binh_anson@ hotmail.com 

   Website: http://www.saigon.com/~anson

(I might be able to send you some small books).

Regards,
Binh

 
 
5294 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue May 22, 2001 10:41pm
Subject: tapes

 
  Dear Nina W, Rob & Kom,

Nina W. wrote (off-list):
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I am sorry I missed your discussions but once again conditions were not right for the meeting.  
I hope I can get any tapes of your discussions for evening listening with Charoen. 
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Nina is referring to tapes of discussions (in English) from when we were recently in Bangkok
(28th, 29th Apr, 1st May). 

To obtain copies of these tapes (probably unedited), pls send an email to the addresses in the
letter under 'Books and Tapes' in the "Useful Posts' section at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/

(or just go back to post 2493)

They also now have edited copies of the tapes  from when we were in Bkk in Dec (not included in
the Cambodia set). These have been edited by Shin (approx Dec 1st-Dec 12th exc.Cambodia). We've
just received these and only listened to the first one (before we arrived) but has Michael J.,
Jack and others as well as K.Sujin.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
Nina wrote:I hope to hear from Joe Cummings but no word yet about whether he will pass through
NKP.
 
Take care and write when you can.
 
Your friend in the dhamma,
Nina
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We didn't see Joe in Bkk either, but he said he was working on a book in Laos and would be passing
your way!!

Keep enjoying that kusala vipaka you mentioned (with sati of course ;-))

Best wishes to you and Charoen and hope to see you next time. Will try to give more notice!

Sarah





 
5295 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue May 22, 2001 10:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: send me book

 
  Dear Binh,

A warm welcome to DSG!

I've seen your excellent website: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebidx.htm
which contains a lot of wonderful material.  I noted when I last looked that you even have Nina
VG's Abhid in Daily Life there which I always recommend and of course many good sutta
translations.

What is the website below?  I tried unsuccessfully to reach it.

You're probably well known to many members here, but for people like myself, would you kindly tell
us just a little (more is very fine too!) about your background interest in Buddhism. I assume
from the website that you're from a Vietnamese background?

Look forward to hearing more from you and thank you for your kind offer below.

Sarah

Binh wrote: > 

> 
> Or send me an email, at: binh_anson@ hotmail.com 
> 
>    Website: http://www.saigon.com/~anson
> 
> (I might be able to send you some small books).
> 
> Regards,
> Binh
> 



 
5296 From: Alex 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:27am
Subject: Hello anh Bi`nh

 
  Hi anh Bi`nh,
   It's nice to see you here.
Metta,
AT

 
5297 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:12am
Subject: Question...

 
  Dear all,

	Hi and I am back again.... I have this nagging question that I have
been meaning to ask all of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people are
exposed to Buddhism one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism would be
a matter of time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other
non-Asian people ...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant or
Catholics), what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity which
is being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would really
like to understand this.... Please reply me off list... and information will
be dealt with privacy. As an Asian I am seeing a trend that is reverse in
European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian country..... more and more
Asian is taking up Christianity... while people in the West is embracing
Buddhism (That is what I have been told by one of my Buddhist friend while
studying abroad). So please reply me ... thank you in advance.... May all of
you be well and happy....

Yours,
CL Loke

 
5298 From: Howard 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 6:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  Hi, CL -

In a message dated 5/22/01 9:19:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
CL Loke writes:


> Dear all,
> 
>     Hi and I am back again.... I have this nagging question that I have
> been meaning to ask all of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people are
> exposed to Buddhism one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism would be
> a matter of time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other
> non-Asian people ...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant or
> Catholics), what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity which
> is being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would really
> like to understand this.... Please reply me off list... and information will
> be dealt with privacy. As an Asian I am seeing a trend that is reverse in
> European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian country..... more and more
> Asian is taking up Christianity... while people in the West is embracing
> Buddhism (That is what I have been told by one of my Buddhist friend while
> studying abroad). So please reply me ... thank you in advance.... May all of
> you be well and happy....
> 
> Yours,
> CL Loke
> 
> 
==============================
       Speaking for myself, I have adopted Buddhism because, for me it is a 
wonderful path, in fact it is a path that I truly love. Ironically, as a 
result of my Buddhist practice and study my appreciation of other religions 
has grown in the process, including my birth religion of Judaism.
       But as far as the general question you raise, one explanation - a 
valid one, I think, though not admirable - may be found in the old adages: 
"Familiarity breeds contempt" and "The grass is always greener on the other 
side of the fence".

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5299 From: Herman 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:35am
Subject: Re: Question...

 
  Dear CL Loke,

Welcome to the group and thank you for asking an open question.

From my limited experience as an ex-Christian, I would say that 
children are brought up with the practise of their culture's faith 
first. Then when they become adults they learn the theory of their 
culture's faith. Then they see the huge gap that exists between the 
theory and the practise. They see what is as opposed to what should 
be. Then they become disillusioned. Then they seek, and come in 
contact with the theory of the faith of another culture. This is 
generally more satisfactory because the new practise and new theory 
are only selectively, partially adopted, and modified to incorporate 
what was learnt as child. 

I hope the above makes sense, and if not, I will be happy to clarify, 
but it will always remain an opinion.

With lovingkindness


Herman


--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> 	Hi and I am back again.... I have this nagging question that 
I have
> been meaning to ask all of you as individuals. I am sure Asian 
people are
> exposed to Buddhism one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism 
would be
> a matter of time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other
> non-Asian people ...... well to be more specific Christians 
(Protestant or
> Catholics), what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon 
Christianity which
> is being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would 
really
> like to understand this.... Please reply me off list... and 
information will
> be dealt with privacy. As an Asian I am seeing a trend that is 
reverse in
> European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian country..... more 
and more
> Asian is taking up Christianity... while people in the West is 
embracing
> Buddhism (That is what I have been told by one of my Buddhist 
friend while
> studying abroad). So please reply me ... thank you in advance.... 
May all of
> you be well and happy....
> 
> Yours,
> CL Loke

 
5300 From: Jonothan Abbott 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:41am
Subject: Re: understanding the "self" concept

 
  Betty and Howard

Betty, I thought your post put the position very well.  As I 
understand it, panna is the very antithesis of moha and wrong view, 
and so needs no supplementary conceptualising to do its job.

Of course, becoming aware (in the conventional sense) of the many 
guises and forms that the misconception of self can take is no bad 
thing and can only be a supporting condition in the long run for the 
exposure of that view to the light of understanding.  Howard, I think 
this is your point and I am in full agreement on it.

Betty, do you know of any sutta or commentary references that bear on 
this general question?

Jon

--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" 
 wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> I have enjoyed reading your many posts and wish to address the 
question of
> whether it is necessary to understand to any degree the exact 
nature of the
> "self" concept before one can experience satipatthana. Though I 
have only
> been studying with Acharn Sujin only a short time and am not well 
versed in
> the Tipitika, I have come to realize that when panna does indeed 
arise,
> there is not only a gradual "letting go" of the "self" concept, but 
there is
> also a deeper and increasing realization of that which we had 
been "taking"
> for self all along and of the various ways it is so deeply 
entrenched.
> Therefore, when panna arises it also gives us an increased 
understanding of
> the nature and extent of the "self" concept. So, just by being 
aware of the
> realities as they arise, from moment to moment, as Acharn teaches, 
is
> enough, and when the conditions are right, panna will rise and 
allow further
> understanding of the nature of "self" and the gradual eroding of 
the concept
> will occur.
> 
> With metta,
> Betty

 
5301 From: Binh 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:07am
Subject: G'day from Perth ... Re: send me book

 
  G'day Khun Sarah, Alex T, Loke, and other Dhamma friends, 

Thanks for the kind words and welcoming messages. I have been lurking 
in this list for some weeks, and I glad to see that the list is well
managed by sincere and knowledgeable Buddhist farangs! :-) Sadhu! 

[for non-Thai readers: "farangs" means "Westerners", in Thai 
language] 

Due to my heavy commitments to many other Dhamma activities, I may not
be able to contribute much to the DSG list, but if permitted, I might
chip in from time to time, to learn and to share with you. 

Below are my humble responses to some of the recent posts: 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

From:  "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 

<< .... I have this nagging question that I have been meaning to ask 
all
of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people are exposed to Buddhism
one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism would be a matter of
time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian 
people
...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant or Catholics),
what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity which is
being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would really
like to understand this.... >>

-------------------

BA: Two years ago, Yu-Ban Lee of the Dhamma-List@ set up a similar
project and asked members of that list to contribute their personal
experience. They were compiled and stored at the website "Finding the
Way", which you and other friends may like to have a look: 

    http://www.quantrum.com.my/duta/way/index.htm 

(I also contributed mine at that site)

=================================================================
 
From:  Sarah Procter Abbott 

<<... 
I've seen your excellent website: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebidx.htm
which contains a lot of wonderful material. I noted when I last looked
that you even have Nina VG's Abhid in Daily Life there which I always
recommend and of course many good sutta translations. 

What is the website below? I tried unsuccessfully to reach it. 

You're probably well known to many members here, but for people like
myself, would you kindly tell us just a little (more is very fine 
too!)
about your background interest in Buddhism. I assume from the website
that you're from a Vietnamese background? ...>>

-----------------------

BA: Few points following:

1) The 2 URLs http://www.budsas.org/ and http://www.saigon.com/~anson
leading to the same site. The site should be up for accessing now. 

It is only a small site operated from San Jose, USA, and might have 
some technical problems in the last 24 hrs. 

2) As I wrote in the other list, Nina's Abhidhamma book was one of the
first book in this subject which I read some 20+ years ago and it was
very beneficial to me ... 

I'm grateful that Khun Nina and your group have made it available on 
the Net. 

By the way, the Vietnamese translator of that book, Bhikkhu Thien-Minh
of Jetavana-Vihara in Saigon, will be spending the coming Rains 
Retreat (Vassa) at Ajahn Sumedho's monastery in England. Hopefully we 
would be able to hear more from him. 

3) As mentioned above, I wrote a small article on how I came to 
Buddhism for Yu-Ban Lee's web page, and you might like to have a look 
at:

   http://www.quantrum.com.my/duta/way/index.htm 

   (you can also see my photo there)

Just briefly: I was born and bred in VN, spending the first 20 yrs
there, the next 5 yrs in Thailand, and the following 25 yrs (till now)
in Australia. 

From my close involvement with the Buddhist Society of Western
Australia, I maintain good contacts with Dhamma teachers and friends 
of Theravadin tradition (Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka,
...). 

=============================================================

From:  Alex Tran
 
<< Hi anh Bi`nh,
   It's nice to see you here.
Metta,
AT >>

-----------------------

BA: Thanks, Alex. It's nice to know you're also here. Small world! 
:-) 

(by the way, for non-Vietnamese readers: "anh" in "anh Binh" means
"brother", as "phee" in Thai).

Metta,
Binh

 
5302 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:16am
Subject: RE: Question...

 
  Ok ... Maybe I was asking the wrong question here... after the morning break
my minds seems to be working better... anyway.. What ultimately that I
wanted to put to question is this.... What do you see in Buddhism that
Christianity (as in your birth religion) does not have ? For some Buddhist
who convert to Christianity... they will quote of their prayers being
answered or maybe they say they found God ? and the sort... but seldom do I
get to hear from a Westerners point of view ? You are still welcome to email
me back off list.... By the way for some who are still not aware of....
Previously I  was in this newsgroup and then I changed job and along with
new email add.... maybe I shall recap again my introduction... I am a
Malaysian living in Penang... Practicing Buddhist... and still learning....
I am an engineer by profession and training.... so feel free to mail me
back....

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2) 
> Sent:	Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:13 AM
> Subject:	Question...
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> 	Hi and I am back again.... I have this nagging question that I have
> been meaning to ask all of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people are
> exposed to Buddhism one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism would
> be a matter of time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other
> non-Asian people ...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant or
> Catholics), what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity
> which is being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would
> really like to understand this.... Please reply me off list... and
> information will be dealt with privacy. As an Asian I am seeing a trend
> that is reverse in European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian
> country..... more and more Asian is taking up Christianity... while people
> in the West is embracing Buddhism (That is what I have been told by one of
> my Buddhist friend while studying abroad). So please reply me ... thank
> you in advance.... May all of you be well and happy....
> 
> Yours,
> CL Loke

 
5303 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] G'day from Perth

 
  Binh

G'day, Sawatdee and Jo san 
from an Aussie(Adelaide) born farang (8 years in Thailand) now living in Hong Kong (so I am also a
'gwei lo', as foreigners are known here).

Welcome to the list from me also.  I hope you find your stay with us useful, and I am sure we in
turn will benefit from your presence and participation.

Thanks for your informative answers below.

Jon

--- Binh wrote: >     
> G'day Khun Sarah, Alex T, Loke, and other Dhamma friends, 
> 
> Thanks for the kind words and welcoming messages. I have been lurking 
> in this list for some weeks, and I glad to see that the list is well
> managed by sincere and knowledgeable Buddhist farangs! :-) Sadhu! 
> 
> [for non-Thai readers: "farangs" means "Westerners", in Thai 
> language] 
> 
> Due to my heavy commitments to many other Dhamma activities, I may not
> be able to contribute much to the DSG list, but if permitted, I might
> chip in from time to time, to learn and to share with you. 
> 
> Below are my humble responses to some of the recent posts: 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From:  "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> 
> << .... I have this nagging question that I have been meaning to ask 
> all
> of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people are exposed to Buddhism
> one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism would be a matter of
> time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian 
> people
> ...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant or Catholics),
> what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity which is
> being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would really
> like to understand this.... >>
> 
> -------------------
> 
> BA: Two years ago, Yu-Ban Lee of the Dhamma-List@ set up a similar
> project and asked members of that list to contribute their personal
> experience. They were compiled and stored at the website "Finding the
> Way", which you and other friends may like to have a look: 
> 
>     http://www.quantrum.com.my/duta/way/index.htm 
> 
> (I also contributed mine at that site)
> 
> =================================================================
>  
> From:  Sarah Procter Abbott 
> 
> <<... 
> I've seen your excellent website: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebidx.htm
> which contains a lot of wonderful material. I noted when I last looked
> that you even have Nina VG's Abhid in Daily Life there which I always
> recommend and of course many good sutta translations. 
> 
> What is the website below? I tried unsuccessfully to reach it. 
> 
> You're probably well known to many members here, but for people like
> myself, would you kindly tell us just a little (more is very fine 
> too!)
> about your background interest in Buddhism. I assume from the website
> that you're from a Vietnamese background? ...>>
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> BA: Few points following:
> 
> 1) The 2 URLs http://www.budsas.org/ and http://www.saigon.com/~anson
> leading to the same site. The site should be up for accessing now. 
> 
> It is only a small site operated from San Jose, USA, and might have 
> some technical problems in the last 24 hrs. 
> 
> 2) As I wrote in the other list, Nina's Abhidhamma book was one of the
> first book in this subject which I read some 20+ years ago and it was
> very beneficial to me ... 
> 
> I'm grateful that Khun Nina and your group have made it available on 
> the Net. 
> 
> By the way, the Vietnamese translator of that book, Bhikkhu Thien-Minh
> of Jetavana-Vihara in Saigon, will be spending the coming Rains 
> Retreat (Vassa) at Ajahn Sumedho's monastery in England. Hopefully we 
> would be able to hear more from him. 
> 
> 3) As mentioned above, I wrote a small article on how I came to 
> Buddhism for Yu-Ban Lee's web page, and you might like to have a look 
> at:
> 
>    http://www.quantrum.com.my/duta/way/index.htm 
> 
>    (you can also see my photo there)
> 
> Just briefly: I was born and bred in VN, spending the first 20 yrs
> there, the next 5 yrs in Thailand, and the following 25 yrs (till now)
> in Australia. 
> 
> From my close involvement with the Buddhist Society of Western
> Australia, I maintain good contacts with Dhamma teachers and friends 
> of Theravadin tradition (Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka,
> ...). 
> 
> =============================================================
> 
> From:  Alex Tran
>  
> << Hi anh Bi`nh,
>    It's nice to see you here.
> Metta,
> AT >>
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> BA: Thanks, Alex. It's nice to know you're also here. Small world! 
> :-) 
> 
> (by the way, for non-Vietnamese readers: "anh" in "anh Binh" means
> "brother", as "phee" in Thai).
> 
> Metta,
> Binh 



 
5304 From: Herman 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:06pm
Subject: Screen , Mind, both are blank

 
  Hi all,

Some humour.

In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft 
Error messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haikus often achieve  a 
wistful yearning and powerful insight through extreme brevity - the 
essence of Zen:

Your file was so big.
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.

The Web site you seek
Cannot be located,
but Countless more exist.

Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.

Program aborting:
Close all that you have worked on.
You ask far too much.

Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.

Yesterday it worked.
Today it is not working.
Windows is like that.

First snow, then silence.
This thousand-dollar screen dies
So beautifully.

With searching comes loss
And the presence of absence:
"My Novel" not found.

The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao-until
You bring fresh toner.

Stay the patient course.
Of little worth is your ire.
The network is down.

A crash reduces
Your expensive computer
To a simple stone.

Three things are certain:
Death, taxes and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.

You step in the stream,
But the water has moved on.
This page is not here.

Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
But we never will.

Having been erased,
The document you're seeking
Must now be retyped.

Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared.
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.


Author unknown

 
5305 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  Dear Erik,

Thanks for your long reply to my last post. I may pick up some points later, but we're a little
far apart when it comes to the ease of jhanas and the like, so I think tthat debate will go on for
sometime! Jon gave the Vis ref. which I had in mind btw.

I had meant to also follow up on this point below which I raised in my notes from Bkk (which
Howard also found unsatisfactory). I was glad to read your 'reason'! (My refs below are to the
Abhidhammattha Sangaha, transl by B.Bodhi).

--- Erik wrote: >
> > 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
> > cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why
> > not?"
> 
> I can think of a reason. The very act of cognizing is conditioned, 
> because there is always subject and object. Being conditioned, there 
> is no way citta can apprehend something without marks, like Nibbana. 
> The very act of "marking" it brings it into the realm of the 
> conditioned. Just an observation, and am curious if there are any 
> explanations or any commentaries that address this point. I haven't 
> seen it addressed, and it's been bugging me for a long time now.

I don't quite see the logic here. Why cannot a conditioned citta apprehend an unconditioned
reality? 

          ***********
'Nibbana is a single undifferentiated ultimate reality.  It is exclusively supramundane, and has
one intrinsic nature (sabhava), which is that of being the unconditioned deathless element totally
transcendant to the conditioned world.' (AS.V1,31) 
          **********
In other words, even though it is unconditioned, it has its nature that can be realized. I'm not
sure that I would call the realizing 'marking', but either way, it remains the citta that realizes
or marks and is conditioned. Being realized does not make the unconditioned reality conditioned. 
          ************
'Each stage (of enlightenment) involves two types of citta, path consciousness (maggacitta) and
fruition consciousness (phalacitta).  All supramundane cittas take as object the unconditioned
reality, nibbana, but they differ as paths and fruits acording to their functions.  the path
consciousness has the function of eradicating (or of permanently attenuating) defilements;  the
fruition consciousness has the function of experiencing the degree of liberation made possible by
the corresponding path.  The path consciousnes is a kusalacitta, a wholesome state;  the fruition
consciousnes is a vipakacitta, a resultant...........................

The paths and fruits are attained by the method of meditation called the development of insight
(vipassanabhavana).  This type of meditation involves the strengthening of the faculty of wisdom
(panna).  By sustained attention to the changing phenomena of mind and matter, the meditator
learns to discern their true characteristics of impermanence, sufffering, and non-self.  When
these insights fain full maturity, they issue in the supramundane paths and fruits.' (AS, 1,
26-28)
          **********
I know that none of this is anything new to you, Erik, but I've typed it out because it does again
underscore the importance of panna understanding the different namas and rupas at all stages.

I think it was Kom who pointed out earlier that cittas also experience concepts which are also not
conditioned realities and never become conditioned realities. It is true that panna only
understands realities, but the cittas which think, think about concepts all the time. 

To finish, I'll give just one more quote about nibbana which you might appreciate:
          **********
'Nibbana is called the void (sunnata) because it is devoid of greed, hatred, and delusion, and
because it is devoid of all that is conditioned.  it is called signless (animitta) because it is
free from the signs of greed, etc., and free from the signs of all conditioned things.  it is
called desireless (appanihita) because it is free from the hankering of greed, etc., and because
it is not desired by craving.'
          **********
Best wishes for now, Erik, and many thanks again for all your helpful feedback!

Sarah
> 



 
5306 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  ...........OR , to put it poetically  (thanks Herman):

Nibbana, please come soon!
No, that's lobha!
Panna get to work FASTER!

...............

Musavada to some
Is Sam A.Vada to others
Let's debate!

.................




Sarah






 
5307 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Question

 
  Dear Loke,

For me, from an early age, I had difficulty with (1) the notion of a supreme, 
infinite God with a personality, (2) this God creates evil and an eternal 
hell, (3) one must believe many dogmas which cannot be verified 
experientially--blind faith, (4) the more sincere Christians often tend to be 
emotionalistic--less Wisdom dimension, (5) emphasis on converting other 
people, and anyone who does not believe the same as you, including Christians 
of other sects, is damned (the more liberal churches don't believe this).  In 
comparison, Buddhist notions were much more logical and satisfying, (6) 
overemphasis one either (a) the authority of the "infallible" Bible or (b) an 
"infallible" religious figure (the Pope) as being the ultimate decider of all 
questions
(as opposed to oneself investigating).

Of course, there are a lot of diversity of Christian groups and some, such as 
the Quakers, might not fit all the above.  But in the sect that I grew up in 
all these problems were present.

Also, as others have said, being an unfamiliar and "exotic" religion one 
could project unrealistic assumptions on it--for example, that Buddhist 
religious organization and history did not suffer from some of the same 
political and sectarian problems of Christianity.  Of course, one learns 
later that humans have the same tendencies wherever they come from.

Also, some very excellent Buddhist teachers came to the U.S. and provided a 
contrast--in their spiritual qualities--to the run of the mill Christian 
preacher.

Also, in my generation, the sincere spiritual seekers were mostly exploring 
alternatives to Christianity.

Paul Bail

    From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
 Subject: RE: Question...
 
 Ok ... Maybe I was asking the wrong question here... after the morning break
 my minds seems to be working better... anyway.. What ultimately that I
 wanted to put to question is this.... What do you see in Buddhism that
 Christianity (as in your birth religion) does not have ? For some Buddhist
 who convert to Christianity... they will quote of their prayers being
 answered or maybe they say they found God ? and the sort... but seldom do I
 get to hear from a Westerners point of view ? You are still welcome to email
 me back off list.... By the way for some who are still not aware of....
 Previously I  was in this newsgroup and then I changed job and along with
 new email add.... maybe I shall recap again my introduction... I am a
 Malaysian living in Penang... Practicing Buddhist... and still learning....
 I am an engineer by profession and training.... so feel free to mail me
 back....
  >>

 
5308 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 4:40pm
Subject: Qestion - P.S.

 
  Dear Loke,

Just thought of something else.  Several years ago in Madison, Wisconsin USA, 
I was on my way to a lecture on Buddhism by H.H. the Dalai Lama and as I was 
walking I saw an old college friend of mine, who was from Japan, and she was 
distributing Christian tracts on the street corner.  She had joined an 
evangelical sect.  I arranged to meet her later to catch up on old times.  
She stated that all her life. growing up as a nominal Japanese Buddhist, she 
had felt guilty, and that she had joined the sect after hearing the 
evangelical message preached, and by accepting a personal savior she had all 
her guilt taken away.  I thought that was interesting, since my experience 
with Christianity was that many people growing up Christian felt very guilty. 
Probably this really didn't have that much to do with either Christianity or 
Buddhism. So, I don't know if you can really understand these trends, because 
human beings are so complex.  

Paul Bail

 
 
5309 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott  <Moderators> 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:20pm
Subject: Fwd: Hello! And transfer of merit to the dead

 
  --- celia walter  wrote: > >
Subject: Hello!  And transfer of merit to the dead
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:40:21 -0000
> 
Hi! My name is Celia. I am a middle aged reference
librarian at the University of Cape Town, South
Africa. I have been attached to a dharma group of one
kind or another for about 10 years (Tibetan and Koren
Zen). In the last few years I have been sitting with a
Theravadin Group. I intend to go to Myanmar in
November to do a month's retreat at Chanmyay Sayadaw's
centre. Any advice on this will be appreciated.

Recently one of my friends died and I have been
feeling a kind of gap about what can be done for the
dead, if anything. I have read about the transfer of
merit to the dead, and have wondered how this squared
with the fact that&nbsp;I alone can "save" myself, and
kamma. I hope this is not a silly question.


 
5310 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Hello! And transfer of merit to the dead

 
  Dear Celia,

I just forwarded this from the moderator mail and I notice that somehow the last couple of lines
and sign- off got lost in the process for which I apologise.

South Africa is very under-represented here (you may be the first ) and i'm glad you've found us.
I look forward to hering more from you and from other members in response to your post below. many
thanks for sharing the interesting details.

In future, you can just press the reply button to send anything to this list direct.

Best wishes for now,

Sarah

--- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott <Moderators> wrote: > --- celia walter
 wrote: > >
> Subject: Hello!  And transfer of merit to the dead
> > Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:40:21 -0000
> > 
> Hi! My name is Celia. I am a middle aged reference
> librarian at the University of Cape Town, South
> Africa. I have been attached to a dharma group of one
> kind or another for about 10 years (Tibetan and Koren
> Zen). In the last few years I have been sitting with a
> Theravadin Group. I intend to go to Myanmar in
> November to do a month's retreat at Chanmyay Sayadaw's
> centre. Any advice on this will be appreciated.
> 
> Recently one of my friends died and I have been
> feeling a kind of gap about what can be done for the
> dead, if anything. I have read about the transfer of
> merit to the dead, and have wondered how this squared
> with the fact that&nbsp;I alone can "save" myself, and
> kamma. I hope this is not a silly question.
> 



 
5311 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  

Hi Sarah,

Jeez, spoiling for a fight, eh? (I love it :)

wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> 
> Thanks for your long reply to my last post. I may pick up some 
points later, but we're a little
> far apart when it comes to the ease of jhanas and the like, so I 
think tthat debate will go on for
> sometime! 

Re: "Ease of jhanas." I NEVER said the jhanas were easy. I said 
they're doable, and with the appropriate confidence coupled with 
persistence in sticking with practice, the signs eventually manifest. 
In my own case, I fumbled, spun my wheels, sat on and off (more off, 
out of frustration). This was my first five years of "practice." I 
didn't know what the heck I was doing, basically, and had no good 
instruction (not that I could have used it at the time, my mind was 
too messed up--I was doing stupid stuff like drinking to quell dukkha 
at the time, etc., so not a happy camper, in other words).

What I didn't realize was I'd never make any progress so long as my 
mind was defiled by so much craving, anger, etc. When I was given  
the practice of tonglen (Tibetan metta-bhabvana) it purified so much 
in a few months of practice it got rid of enough of the hindrances to 
make meditation possible. It sure made me feel like a million bucks. 
That, and a little MDMA chemotherapy, which helped me identify 
samatha (helped bring about kaya & citta passadhi and a big AHA!), 
plus the bliss of tummo yoga, brought it all together for me. After 
many years of failed efforts, though. That doesn't sound all that 
easy to me. It does, however, prove it's possible here & now, in 21st 
century society. With a little ingenuity, and unwillingness to take 
others' words for things (meaning test EVERYTHING out and question 
mercilessly), and the persistence to keep with it in spite of  
obstacles, nearly anything is possible. Of course what I see now is 
this the textbook approach of developing the bodhipakkiya-dhammas. 
The appropriate order, dana, sila, bhavana: restraining bad actions 
stopping drinking for example), clearing away defilements by 
purifying the mind (tonglen), and last, bhavana, meditation on 
emptiness once the coarse junk was cleared away from the previous two 
steps (though never abandoning any steps, all must work together all 
the time now).

>Jon gave the Vis ref. which I had in mind btw.
> 
> I had meant to also follow up on this point below which I raised in 
my notes from Bkk (which
> Howard also found unsatisfactory). I was glad to read 
your 'reason'! (My refs below are to the
> Abhidhammattha Sangaha, transl by B.Bodhi).
> 
> --- Erik wrote: >
> > > 9. NIBBANA. Someone asked how a sankhara citta
> > > cognizes nibbana, an asankhara reality,. Response 'Why
> > > not?"
> > 
> > I can think of a reason. The very act of cognizing is 
conditioned, 
> > because there is always subject and object. Being conditioned, 
there 
> > is no way citta can apprehend something without marks, like 
Nibbana. 
> > The very act of "marking" it brings it into the realm of the 
> > conditioned. Just an observation, and am curious if there are any 
> > explanations or any commentaries that address this point. I 
haven't 
> > seen it addressed, and it's been bugging me for a long time now.
> 
> I don't quite see the logic here. Why cannot a conditioned citta 
apprehend an unconditioned
> reality? 
> 
>           ***********
> 'Nibbana is a single undifferentiated ultimate reality.  It is 
exclusively supramundane, and has
> one intrinsic nature (sabhava), which is that of being the 
unconditioned deathless element totally
> transcendant to the conditioned world.' (AS.V1,31) 
>           **********
> In other words, even though it is unconditioned, it has its nature 
that can be realized. I'm not
> sure that I would call the realizing 'marking', but either way, it 
remains the citta that realizes
> or marks and is conditioned. Being realized does not make the 
unconditioned reality conditioned. 

You say the "nature" of nibbana can be realized, and then go on to 
quote things that say nibbana lacks any marks pertaining to sankhara 
dhammas, is unconditioned, etc. I do not disagree with this at all, 
which is why I raise the question of how what is conditioned can 
cognize the unconditioned.

To have a citta that can "cognize" nibbana, if this is true, is an 
oxymoron. How can a citta have the six cetasikas of phassa, vedana, 
etc., against something lacking marks? How can one have phassa 
without creating a division between subject and object? Given nibbana 
is void of subject and object (the implication of it being 
unconditioned) as well as devoid of all that pertains to self, to 
make nibbaba an object through even phassa is to reify it and then, 
there is no nibbana anymore!

It would be the same as saying that you could "cognize" the absence 
of a big purple elephant in the room. Is is possible to directly 
cognize an absence? Can phassa arise in the instance of absence in 
the case of this elephant?

> I think it was Kom who pointed out earlier that cittas also 
experience concepts which are also not
> conditioned realities and never become conditioned realities. 

All pannati are by definition "deceptive realities" in the category 
of samutti sacca. So perhaps we are working with different 
definitions. I am using the division of paramattha vs. samutti sacca 
here. All pannati are samutti sacca, hence, deceptive. How can 
samutti sacca possibly conceive of paramattha sacca, is another way I 
might rephrase he question of how citta can cognize nibbana.

> It is true that panna only
> understands realities, but the cittas which think, think about 
concepts all the time. 
> 
> To finish, I'll give just one more quote about nibbana which you 
might appreciate:
>           **********
> 'Nibbana is called the void (sunnata) because it is devoid of 
greed, hatred, and delusion, and
> because it is devoid of all that is conditioned.

Void of all that is conditioned. And citta is conditioned, as is 
everything not nibbana. So again, how can the conditioned take the 
unconditioned as an object without reifying it right then & there? 
Lokuttara panna arises when the subtlest elaborations are nuked in 
meditation. If there are elaborations, no nibbana. When these 
elaborations that create distinctions among the ten-thousand things 
goes, what is left? Nibbana. Therefore, how can Nibbana, not being 
a "thing" at all, but rather a mere LABEL for the absence of 
independent existence, be "cognized" at all? 

Awaiting your reply!

 
5312 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 10:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  Dear CL

Glad to see you back again.  Thanks for the interesting question.

The fact that some people find interest in teachings that are foreign to their native culture is
as you point out a universal phenomenon.

I believe that the reason why we find this fascinating or puzzling is that we hold the innate view
that a person's make-up is largely the result of his environment and upbringing in this life.  The
Dhamma of course teaches us otherwise, that we are a product of our past deeds and mental states. 
Viewed in this light the phenomenon you describe is not really the least bit surprising.

Even if, after studying the teachings, we accept the likelihood of this truth, the fact is the
contrary view is deeply held and is not removed simply by exposure to the dahmma.

So my short answer to your question is, it is because of interest in the dhamma in the past, and
the good fortune to come across it again in this life, that a person from a non-Buddhist
background takes up the dhamma.  We all of course have our perceived set of reasons or series of
events that led us to 'find'  the dhamma in this life, but these will probalby be of superficial
relevance compared to the influence of past accumulations and deeds.

Jon


--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: > Dear all,
> 
> 	Hi and I am back again.... I have this nagging question that I have
> been meaning to ask all of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people are
> exposed to Buddhism one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism would be
> a matter of time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other
> non-Asian people ...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant or
> Catholics), what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity which
> is being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would really
> like to understand this.... Please reply me off list... and information will
> be dealt with privacy. As an Asian I am seeing a trend that is reverse in
> European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian country..... more and more
> Asian is taking up Christianity... while people in the West is embracing
> Buddhism (That is what I have been told by one of my Buddhist friend while
> studying abroad). So please reply me ... thank you in advance.... May all of
> you be well and happy....
> 
> Yours,
> CL Loke
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 




 
5313 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:06pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Hello! And transfer of merit to the dead

 
  Dear Sarah (not sure if getting to Celia or not),

Welcome to the group (if you are in the group).

--- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > Theravadin 
> Group. I intend to go to Myanmar in
> November to do a month's retreat at Chanmyay Sayadaw's
> centre. Any advice on this will be appreciated.

Can't help you here.  Although other members may be able to...

> 
> Recently one of my friends died and I have been
> feeling a kind of gap about what can be done for the
> dead, if anything. I have read about the transfer of
> merit to the dead, and have wondered how this squared
> with the fact that&nbsp;I alone can "save" myself, and
> kamma. I hope this is not a silly question.

The Buddha listed 10 kinds of wholesome deeds that can be done, one
of 
which is to rejoice (anumoddhana) when you know that other people
have 
done wholesome deeds.   When the Thais or other Buddhists say that "a 
merit can be transferred", what is actually done is:

1) The original doer of the wholesome deeds tells those that can know 
(human, devas, ghosts, etc) that a wholesome deed has been done.  
This 
dedication/making-known the wholesome deed is a "merit" accumulation 
for the doer.
2) The entity hearing about the deed rejoices (anumoddhana) the 
wholesome deeds of others.   This rejoicing is a merit accumulation
for the 
person rejoicing.  

There are many stories about the results of rejoicing other's
wholesome 
deeds in the tipitakas including:
1) Being born from the human plane into a deva plane as a result of
doing 
such 
2) Being born from the ghost (peta) plan into a deva plane as a
result of 
doing such

Since other worlds (peta and ghosts) cannot be verified as facts for
most 
people, what can be verified now are:
1) When telling other people about your own or other's good deeds
giving 
the opportunities for the hearers to rejoice about the deeds, the
mind is 
calm (with neutral or pleasant feelings) and is free of unwholesome 
qualities.
2) When rejoicing in other people wholesome deeds, the quality of the 
mind is similar.

kom

 

 
5315 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 1:02am
Subject: greetings from Nina

 
  Dear group, greetings to you all. First of all great anumodana to Sarah and
Jonothan who lead this group with so much dedication, skill and metta. They
do not have a quiet breakfast because they work already for the group; they
even forego their evening meal and all relaxation such as T.V. for the sake
of their group. It makes me silent when I think of all this. I also wish to
express my appreciation to all members who seriously and sincerely study the
Dhamma with the purpose to have more understanding, and to those who keep on
making an effort to answer questions.
I have to correct something I wrote to Robert a few weeks ago about
awareness of dosa. Sarah had taken this up with Acharn Sujin and pointed
this out to me: I wrote that before realizing the difference between nama
and rupa we cannot be aware of dosa. It should be: we cannot know precisely
the characteristic of dosa as nama. Thus, although we are mixing up nama and
rupa, at least there can be a beginning of awareness of dosa, and this is of
course mixed with many moments of thinking. If there is no beginning, how
can it ever be known as it is.
What Sarah pointed out was an excellent reminder not to neglect awareness of
dosa, even slight degrees, such as a little uneasiness. How beneficial are
reminders from good friends, and I am here with good friends. Nina.

 
5316 From: Num 
Date: Wed May 23, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  Hi Jon,

I just finished attending a conference at Vanderbilt, Nashville, Tenessee. I have another 4 hours to catch a flight back home.   I don't think this is a good input but just like to comment sth.

<<<<<<I believe that the reason why we find this fascinating or puzzling is that we
 hold the innate view
 that a person's make-up is largely the result of his environment and
 upbringing in this life.    We all of course have our perceived set of
 reasons or series of
 events that led us to 'find'  the dhamma in this life, but these will
 probalby be of superficial
 relevance compared to the influence of past accumulations and deeds.>>>>

I think this is somewhat tricky reasoning.  Because the future has not yet arrived, so only the present and the past can give an influence on us. Sound infallible to me.   I think that both the accumulation and the environment factor are somewhat almost equal in theier effects.  Every interaction between environment and citta will inevitably become a past accumulation.   In my opinion, good environment supports and interacts with citta (nama, mind, brain, whatever we want to name it).  I wonder, if I born in a environment that food is not sufficient, I have to steal or to fight to make a living, my parents were abusive, I could not afford to go to school, can I have a chance to study Buddhism or meet friends in Dhamma???  I know that I better say "never say never".   But If I born in an environment that there is no knowledge of Buddhism available, I don't think I can become a Buddhist, the dhamma is too deep and too hard for me to understand it on my own. 

Well, that my accomulation, I work in genetic and medical field.  To me environment and gene always interact, and I am still perplex in, I can call it, both conventional and paramattha truth.  

Well, I call myself a wonderer.

Num

 
5317 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] greetings from Nina

 
  Dear Nina,

We are all very honoured to have you here with us and I can certainly never thank you enough for
your wonderful example and inspiration over the years in terms of your dedication to the teachings
and the excellent books you have written which have helped me so much. At present I'm really
appreciating Survey of Paramattha Dhammas which can be found on these websites:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

You're very, very welcome here and I'm sure you'll be able to point out many mistakes we all make!

Very best wishes as always,
Sarah

p.s. Actually we have lovely breakfasts reading the posts! Many thanks for the comments which
really make me blush - this is a real team effort!

--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote: > Dear group, greetings to you all. First of all
great anumodana to Sarah and
> Jonothan who lead this group with so much dedication, skill and metta. They
> do not have a quiet breakfast because they work already for the group; they
> even forego their evening meal and all relaxation such as T.V. for the sake
> of their group. It makes me silent when I think of all this. I also wish to
> express my appreciation to all members who seriously and sincerely study the
> Dhamma with the purpose to have more understanding, and to those who keep on
> making an effort to answer questions.
> I have to correct something I wrote to Robert a few weeks ago about
> awareness of dosa. Sarah had taken this up with Acharn Sujin and pointed
> this out to me: I wrote that before realizing the difference between nama
> and rupa we cannot be aware of dosa. It should be: we cannot know precisely
> the characteristic of dosa as nama. Thus, although we are mixing up nama and
> rupa, at least there can be a beginning of awareness of dosa, and this is of
> course mixed with many moments of thinking. If there is no beginning, how
> can it ever be known as it is.
> What Sarah pointed out was an excellent reminder not to neglect awareness of
> dosa, even slight degrees, such as a little uneasiness. How beneficial are
> reminders from good friends, and I am here with good friends. Nina.     
> 



 
5318 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott  <Moderators> 
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:24am
Subject: Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation

 
Subject: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The
> Buddha Educational Foundation
> 
> > 2) Buddha Education Foundation
> >    11F, 55 Hangchow South Road, Sec 1
> >    Taipei
> >    TAIWAN - R.O.C.
> 
> The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational
> Foundation,
> 11F, #55, Sec. 1, Hang-Chow S. Rd.,
> 100, Taipei, Taiwan
> TEL: +886-2-2395-1198
> FAX: +886-2-2391-3415
> 
> The above website just established its website last
> year [ 1st Dec 
> 2000 ] here : [ But  it is written in Chinese
> language :-)]
> http://www.budaedu.org.tw/
> 
> You could surf this website for the catalogue of the
> dhamma books free 
> for distribution which are currently available:
> 
> http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign
> 
> [I direct translated from the above website how to
> request the dhamma 
> books as it is only written in chinese :-)]
> =================================================
> How to request the dhamma books :
> [1] You are welcome to request  either through
> phone, fax, snail mail 
> or email.
> [2] In order to post the requested dhamma books to
> you, please write 
> your mail address clearly with the relevent
> postcode.
> [3] In order the dhamma books can be easily
> accessible to all the 
> people, all the dhamma books here are for FREE
> distribution. In order 
> the dhamma books can be equally distributed to the
> needed ones, please 
> request the exact amount of the books that you
> really need. The 
> availability of the dhamma books depends on the
> availability of the 
> stock left.
> [4]There is some very few limited items left which
> are  not listed in 
> the above website due to the small amount stock
> left, this are 
> reserved for those right ones to request, so it is
> not convinience to 
> list this items publicly, if you really need this
> not listed items, 
> you are welcome to request through phone, fax, post
> or email to ask 
> for further information.
> [5] When you reqesting through email , please take
> note:
>     [a] for tradition chinese characters dhamma
> books, please write to 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114233014056099134036102203085243115134248015198209121182190172019106  [domestic@ budaedu.org.tw ]
>     [b] for simplified chinese characters dhamma
> books, please write 
> to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=029166020185018031172223203085243115134248015198209121182190172019106  [mainland@
> budaedu.org.tw ]
>     [c] apart from the above [a] & [b] for  foreign
> language [english, 
> sri lanka, vietname etc] dhamma books , please write
> to 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=165130192180099198169232203085243115134248015198209121182190172019106   [overseas@ budaedu.org.tw
> ]
> ====================================================
> 
> Normally the catalogue of the dhamma books available
> are updated in a 
> monthly basis. Below are some of the foreign
> language books currently 
> available I took from the above website as some of
> the term are 
> written in chinese:  
> 
> Foreign Language Dhamma Books (Updated :
> 2001.May.01.)
> 
> Book Name     {Author}      [Language]      (Printed
> Amount/units)
> 
> -DHAMMA VIVIENTE <Original English Name: LIVING
> DHAMMA>{Ven. Ajahn 
> Chan}[Spanish] (10,000 units)                       
>                  
> -BUDDHISM IN A NUTSHELL {Ven.NANDA} [English] (5,000
> units)           
> -THE BUDDHA'S ANCENT PATH [English] (5,000 units)
> -MAY FLOWER II [English] (5,000 units)
> -Pure-Land Zen , Zen Pure-Land [English] (5,000
> units)
> -BUDDHISM OF WISDOM & FAITH [English] (5,000 units)
> -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [English] (3,000 units)
> -BUDDHISM AS AN EDUCATION [English] (5,000 units)
> -THE WAY IT IS [English] (5,000 units)
> -THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH [English] (4,000 units)
> -BUDDHISM: THE WISDOM OF COMPASSION AND AWAKENING
> [English] (10,000 
> units)
> -TO UNDERSTAND BUDDHISM [English] (10,000 units)
> -AN ELEMENTARY PALI COURSE [English] (2,000 units)
> -On Amidism,To Be Born in a Lotus,A Buddhist Goal
> that can be 
> [English] (4,000 units)
> -EMPTY CLOUD: THE TEACHINGS OF XU YUN AND A
> REMEMBRANCE OF THE GREAT 
> CHINESE ZEN MASTER [English] (4,000 units)
> -THE SUTRA OF BODHISATTYA KSITIGARBHA'S FUNDAMENTAL
> VOWS [English] 
> (5,000 units)
> -THUS HAVE I HEARD [English] (5,000 units)
> -CHANGING DESTINY [English] (10,000 units)
> -VIPASSANA MEDITATION [German]
> -VINAYA TIPITAKA [India Language] {3,000 units)
> -WHY MEDITATION [India Language/Dialect Marathi]
> -MINDFULNESS:THE PATH TO THE DEATH [Italy Language]
> (10,000 units)
> -THE FIELD OF MERIT [Loas Language] [10,000 units]
> -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [Sri Lanka Pali Language]
> (5,000 units)
> -COMMENTARY ON THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [sri Lanka
> Language] (5,000 
> units)
> -BUDDHISM: ETT LEVANDE BUDSKAP [Sweden Language]
> (10,000 units)  
> 10,000       
> 
> 



 
5319 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation

 
  Dear Gaopeng,

Many thanks for this info. Again i forwarded your message from the moderator account where many
posts are ending up at the moment for some reason. (I haven't forwarded the duplicate, but this is
the reason for the delay in this case).

No time for any comments by me as i'm rushing out, but please tell us a little about yourself!

many thanks,
Sarah

p.s as I just said to Celia, from now on you can just hit a 'reply' button to any post to send
direct to the list. 

Kom & all- replies to any of these messages that have been forwarded should be addressed to the
original sender and not to me...they're all here listening in!





 
5320 From: Binh 
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 10:10am
Subject: ... And transfer of merit to the dead

 
  --- celia walter  wrote:

> > Recently one of my friends died and I have been
> > feeling a kind of gap about what can be done for the
> > dead, if anything. I have read about the transfer of
> > merit to the dead, and have wondered how this squared
> > with the fact that&nbsp;I alone can "save" myself, and
> > kamma. 

------------------------------------------------

BA: Venerable Dhammananda wrote a short and concise explanation of 
this issue, which is available at:

==> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/307.htm

  (The Significance of Transference of Merits to the Departed)

By the way, I would also recommend you and other dhamma friends to 
have a look at his book, "What Buddhists Believe", which covers many 
frequently-asked questions on common Buddhist practice. Available at:

==> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/main.htm 

Metta,
Binh

 
5321 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:04am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Question

 
  Dear Paul, 
		Thank you for your explanation. Basically what you have said
I agree.. but somehow I seems to be not satisfied as to the answered given..
maybe it is just me... but maybe the situation here in my country or the
environment around is this.... Chinese here in Malaysia consists of
Buddhist, practising and non practising, Practising would be like Dhamma
aware group.. while the other is that a mixture of Taoism, Confucianism and
deva worshipping (I hope I use the correct term) Basically praying to idols
of deities etc etc.... and it seems non focusing type of worship where one
can be praying to up to several deities... so I guess this is less
convincing and substantiating than  Christianity .... where it is easier to
relate to and also all these deities praying tends to get side track to
superstition.... hence opening a better opportunity for conversion...
Christianity offers them a focus point..... to channel and cultivate
spiritual health.. very often I get into discussion with Christian friends
(be it Protestant or Catholics) of course we bear no ill will .....
Furthermore when I was surfing the Net, wanting to look for more information
on topics on life (ie the beginning) somehow or rather.. I end up nil... in
terms of Chrisitianity .. life begins with the will and "the breath of God"
... although I know that the Buddhist would not be bothered by these issues
which does not solve "the poison arrow in the body" problem .. but I am
still wanting to know... maybe can enlighten me on this...

rgds,
LokeCL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Paul Bail [SMTP:Paul Bail]
> Sent:	Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:18 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Question
> 
> Dear Loke,
> 
> For me, from an early age, I had difficulty with (1) the notion of a
> supreme, 
> infinite God with a personality, (2) this God creates evil and an eternal 
> hell, (3) one must believe many dogmas which cannot be verified 
> experientially--blind faith, (4) the more sincere Christians often tend to
> be 
> emotionalistic--less Wisdom dimension, (5) emphasis on converting other 
> people, and anyone who does not believe the same as you, including
> Christians 
> of other sects, is damned (the more liberal churches don't believe this).
> In 
> comparison, Buddhist notions were much more logical and satisfying, (6) 
> overemphasis one either (a) the authority of the "infallible" Bible or (b)
> an 
> "infallible" religious figure (the Pope) as being the ultimate decider of
> all 
> questions
> (as opposed to oneself investigating).
> 
> Of course, there are a lot of diversity of Christian groups and some, such
> as 
> the Quakers, might not fit all the above.  But in the sect that I grew up
> in 
> all these problems were present.
> 
> Also, as others have said, being an unfamiliar and "exotic" religion one 
> could project unrealistic assumptions on it--for example, that Buddhist 
> religious organization and history did not suffer from some of the same 
> political and sectarian problems of Christianity.  Of course, one learns 
> later that humans have the same tendencies wherever they come from.
> 
> Also, some very excellent Buddhist teachers came to the U.S. and provided
> a 
> contrast--in their spiritual qualities--to the run of the mill Christian 
> preacher.
> 
> Also, in my generation, the sincere spiritual seekers were mostly
> exploring 
> alternatives to Christianity.
> 
> Paul Bail
>

 
5322 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 11:08am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  Dear Jon...

	I am not quenched.... no doubt of past good karma and chance upon it
this life do plays a role.. but however with each different lives conditions
and environments will differ thus.. the mind is evolving... and the actions
in this life is what interests me.. what part that you are not confortable
with that makes you want to change....?  you can reply off list if you
wish... thank you in advance

LokeCL
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jonothan Abbott [SMTP:Jon]
> Sent:	Wednesday, May 23, 2001 10:42 PM
> Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...
> 
> Dear CL
> 
> Glad to see you back again.  Thanks for the interesting question.
> 
> The fact that some people find interest in teachings that are foreign to
> their native culture is
> as you point out a universal phenomenon.
> 
> I believe that the reason why we find this fascinating or puzzling is that
> we hold the innate view
> that a person's make-up is largely the result of his environment and
> upbringing in this life.  The
> Dhamma of course teaches us otherwise, that we are a product of our past
> deeds and mental states. 
> Viewed in this light the phenomenon you describe is not really the least
> bit surprising.
> 
> Even if, after studying the teachings, we accept the likelihood of this
> truth, the fact is the
> contrary view is deeply held and is not removed simply by exposure to the
> dahmma.
> 
> So my short answer to your question is, it is because of interest in the
> dhamma in the past, and
> the good fortune to come across it again in this life, that a person from
> a non-Buddhist
> background takes up the dhamma.  We all of course have our perceived set
> of reasons or series of
> events that led us to 'find'  the dhamma in this life, but these will
> probalby be of superficial
> relevance compared to the influence of past accumulations and deeds.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: >
> Dear all,
> > 
> > 	Hi and I am back again.... I have this nagging question that I have
> > been meaning to ask all of you as individuals. I am sure Asian people
> are
> > exposed to Buddhism one way or the other.... and taking up Buddhism
> would be
> > a matter of time. But for a European/Americans/Caucasians and other
> > non-Asian people ...... well to be more specific Christians (Protestant
> or
> > Catholics), what makes you choose Buddhism and to abandon Christianity
> which
> > is being taught and passed down to you when you are young. I would
> really
> > like to understand this.... Please reply me off list... and information
> will
> > be dealt with privacy. As an Asian I am seeing a trend that is reverse
> in
> > European/Americans/Caucasians and other non-Asian country..... more and
> more
> > Asian is taking up Christianity... while people in the West is embracing
> > Buddhism (That is what I have been told by one of my Buddhist friend
> while
> > studying abroad). So please reply me ... thank you in advance.... May
> all of
> > you be well and happy....
> > 
> > Yours,
> > CL Loke
> > 


 
5323 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] greetings from Nina

 
  Nina

Welcome to the group from me, and many thanks for your kind words.

Actually my involvement with the list has not been a burden or chore at all, but rather a great
joy, since it has been an occasion for so much more useful reflection than would otherwise have
been the case.  I am very grateful to all who have taken part in the list for making it what it
is. 

We hope that you find your time with us useful, and we look forward very much to your posts.  I
know that you devote most of your energies to your writings, but I hope you will find time to join
in the discussion from time to time.

Jon


--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote: > Dear group, greetings to you all. First of all
great anumodana to Sarah and
> Jonothan who lead this group with so much dedication, skill and metta. They
> do not have a quiet breakfast because they work already for the group; they
> even forego their evening meal and all relaxation such as T.V. for the sake
> of their group. It makes me silent when I think of all this. I also wish to
> express my appreciation to all members who seriously and sincerely study the
> Dhamma with the purpose to have more understanding, and to those who keep on
> making an effort to answer questions.
> I have to correct something I wrote to Robert a few weeks ago about
> awareness of dosa. Sarah had taken this up with Acharn Sujin and pointed
> this out to me: I wrote that before realizing the difference between nama
> and rupa we cannot be aware of dosa. It should be: we cannot know precisely
> the characteristic of dosa as nama. Thus, although we are mixing up nama and
> rupa, at least there can be a beginning of awareness of dosa, and this is of
> course mixed with many moments of thinking. If there is no beginning, how
> can it ever be known as it is.
> What Sarah pointed out was an excellent reminder not to neglect awareness of
> dosa, even slight degrees, such as a little uneasiness. How beneficial are
> reminders from good friends, and I am here with good friends. Nina.     
> 
 
 

 
5324 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ... And transfer of merit to the dead

 
  Celia

Welcome to the list, and thank you for bringing up this interesting question.

I've not had a chance yet to check the references helpfully provided by Binh (below), but I think
you will by now have realised that 'transfer of merit' is quite a misnomer, as is the idea that
this is something associated solely with the dead.  This was I thought clearly brought out in
Kom's post.

The wholesome mental state associated with making known to others wholesome deeds done, and
appreciating that when made known by another, is an aspect of wholesomeness that was fairly much
absent from my upbringing and I suspect the upbringing of those in most 'Western' cultures.

Once one knows about it, one can soon find opportunities to develop it in one's daily life. 

I do hope this exchange has helped fill the gap a little.

Jon

--- Binh wrote: > --- celia walter  wrote:
> 
> > > Recently one of my friends died and I have been
> > > feeling a kind of gap about what can be done for the
> > > dead, if anything. I have read about the transfer of
> > > merit to the dead, and have wondered how this squared
> > > with the fact that&nbsp;I alone can "save" myself, and
> > > kamma. 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> BA: Venerable Dhammananda wrote a short and concise explanation of 
> this issue, which is available at:
> 
> ==> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/307.htm
> 
>   (The Significance of Transference of Merits to the Departed)
> 
> By the way, I would also recommend you and other dhamma friends to 
> have a look at his book, "What Buddhists Believe", which covers many 
> frequently-asked questions on common Buddhist practice. Available at:
> 
> ==> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/main.htm 
> 
> Metta,
> Binh 
> 



 
5325 From: Num 
Date: Thu May 24, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] greetings from Nina

 
  Hi Nina,

May I also say welcome to dsg. Glad to see u here.  

I am very busy lately, but let me ask you and the group something which is 
not clear for me.   

Sorry Sarah, I have not been able to keep up with ur reply.  I have read them 
all though.

<<<I have to correct something I wrote to Robert a few weeks ago about
awareness of dosa. Sarah had taken this up with Acharn Sujin and pointed
this out to me: I wrote that before realizing the difference between nama
and rupa we cannot be aware of dosa. It should be: we cannot know precisely
the characteristic of dosa as nama. Thus, although we are mixing up nama and
rupa, at least there can be a beginning of awareness of dosa, and this is of
course mixed with many moments of thinking. If there is no beginning, how
can it ever be known as it is.
What Sarah pointed out was an excellent reminder not to neglect awareness of
dosa, even slight degrees, such as a little uneasiness. >>>

I am still struggle at thinking level.  Here is my question,  since dosa 
cetasika always and only coarises with domanassa-vedana.  I have a hard time 
seeing what the different between the two.   When I am mad, there are long 
series of feeling arise. I can feel I am angry, I can feel it's kind of 
tension in my various muscles, I feel the heat, uncalmed, uneasy feeling, 
dissatisfaction, impatience and unkindness even at time destructive intention 
(hmmm, sorry I can be a bad guy).   May I ask what exactly is character of 
dosa and also domanassa-vedana?

Alright, have to go. 

Num

PS.  Lately, I have got only sporadic mails from dsg echoed to me, not every 
mail.  Does this happen to other as well ???




 
5326 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] greetings from Nina

 
  Dear Num,

--- Num wrote:
> (hmmm, sorry I can be a bad guy).   May I ask what exactly is character of 
> dosa and also domanassa-vedana?
> 
> Alright, have to go. 
> 
> Num
> 
> PS.  Lately, I have got only sporadic mails from dsg echoed to me, not every 
> mail.  Does this happen to other as well ???
> 

You always make me laugh!  I miss you when you're not around too! Good question about dosa!

You can always check the website to see if all the messages have come through: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup

or escribe (remember 'metta' is the password):
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/

Usually I find they all come through but some are delayed, probably because of different servers. 

Have to go too!
Sarah

p.s HOWARD and Num, did my response on phassa, vinnana and the rest help at all?
ERIK, many thanks...I'm not spoiling for a fight and WILL get back to you, probably next week now!
(unless reinforcements come in in the meantime ;-))





 
5327 From: Num 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] greetings from Nina : Sarah

 
  Hi Sarah,

I just checked the dsg on yahoo group.  I missed a lot of mails actually.  I 
didn't get your mail on "Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana", either.   
Let me checked them out and get in touch with you later.   I usually check my 
mail on AOL only.  I set my mail on other servers to fwd the mail to my aol 
account.  

Num



 
5328 From: Herman 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:25pm
Subject: Re: Ease and stuff

 
  Dear Erik et al ,

I am not attributing the use of the words to you, Erik,  but I wonder 
whether the concepts of difficulty and ease apply at all to jhanas. 
Wouldn't it be fair to say that when the conditions are not right 
jhana cannot arise, and when conditions are right jhana can arise?

An eight year old with certain accumulations may dwell in the jhanas 
at will , while the most learned man with other accumulations may 
never get near that state.

Similarly, I read on dhammastudy.com that it is hard for satipatthana 
to arise. Perhaps it is more meaningful to say that satipatthana does 
not arise as often as other states of mind, again due to the 
conditions that prevail. 

I am now becoming indulgent here, but another one that comes up 
regularly is that cittas arise and fall so rapidly, we can't really 
keep up with them , or words to that effect. Cittas are neither slow 
or fast, each one carries out their function perfectly, neither 
hurried nor slow, just so.

That's what I think. What do you think?


Regards

Herman

--- Erik wrote:
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
> 
> 
> Re: "Ease of jhanas." I NEVER said the jhanas were easy. I said 
> they're doable, and with the appropriate confidence coupled with 
> persistence in sticking with practice, the signs eventually 
manifest. 
> In my own case, I fumbled, spun my wheels, sat on and off (more 
off, 
> out of frustration). This was my first five years of "practice." I 
> didn't know what the heck I was doing, basically, and had no good 
> instruction (not that I could have used it at the time, my mind was 
> too messed up--I was doing stupid stuff like drinking to quell 
dukkha 
> at the time, etc., so not a happy camper, in other words).
> 
> What I didn't realize was I'd never make any progress so long as my 
> mind was defiled by so much craving, anger, etc. When I was given  
> the practice of tonglen (Tibetan metta-bhabvana) it purified so 
much 
> in a few months of practice it got rid of enough of the hindrances 
to 
> make meditation possible. It sure made me feel like a million 
bucks. 
> That, and a little MDMA chemotherapy, which helped me identify 
> samatha (helped bring about kaya & citta passadhi and a big AHA!), 
> plus the bliss of tummo yoga, brought it all together for me. After 
> many years of failed efforts, though. That doesn't sound all that 
> easy to me. It does, however, prove it's possible here & now, in 
21st 
> century society. With a little ingenuity, and unwillingness to take 
> others' words for things (meaning test EVERYTHING out and question 
> mercilessly), and the persistence to keep with it in spite of  
> obstacles, nearly anything is possible. Of course what I see now is 
> this the textbook approach of developing the bodhipakkiya-dhammas. 
> The appropriate order, dana, sila, bhavana: restraining bad actions 
> stopping drinking for example), clearing away defilements by 
> purifying the mind (tonglen), and last, bhavana, meditation on 
> emptiness once the coarse junk was cleared away from the previous 
two 
> steps (though never abandoning any steps, all must work together 
all 
> the time now).
>

 
5329 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> What I didn't realize was I'd never make any progress so long as my 
> mind was defiled by so much craving, anger, etc. When I was given  
> the practice of tonglen (Tibetan metta-bhabvana) it purified so much 
> in a few months of practice it got rid of enough of the hindrances to 
> make meditation possible. It sure made me feel like a million bucks. 
> That, and a little MDMA chemotherapy, which helped me identify 
> samatha (helped bring about kaya & citta passadhi and a big AHA!), 
> plus the bliss of tummo yoga, brought it all together for me.

Erik
Sorry, but what is MDMN chemotherapy?
thanks
JOn


 
5330 From: Erik 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> --- Erik wrote:
> > What I didn't realize was I'd never make any progress so long as 
my 
> > mind was defiled by so much craving, anger, etc. When I was 
given  
> > the practice of tonglen (Tibetan metta-bhabvana) it purified so 
much 
> > in a few months of practice it got rid of enough of the 
hindrances to 
> > make meditation possible. It sure made me feel like a million 
bucks. 
> > That, and a little MDMA chemotherapy, which helped me identify 
> > samatha (helped bring about kaya & citta passadhi and a big 
AHA!), 
> > plus the bliss of tummo yoga, brought it all together for me.
> 
> Erik
> Sorry, but what is MDMN chemotherapy?

I have no idea what MDMN would be. MDMA is 
methelynedioxymethamphetamine, otherwise known as Ecstasy, X, 
whatever. You know, the stuff they are throwing people in jail for.

 
5331 From: Erik 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Ease and stuff

 
  --- Herman wrote:
> Dear Erik et al ,
> 
> I am not attributing the use of the words to you, Erik,  but I 
wonder 
> whether the concepts of difficulty and ease apply at all to jhanas. 
> Wouldn't it be fair to say that when the conditions are not right 
> jhana cannot arise, and when conditions are right jhana can arise?

I agree "ease" and "difficulty" are not as helpful. That was 
generally my point, that if the appropriate conditions are present, 
the jhanas arise. But the conditions have to be there first. And they 
have to be cultivated in the appropriate order: sila, samadhi, panna.

If there is anything to be learned from the Buddha's teachings on 
dependent origination, it is that if we can identify the conditions 
for the arising of the jhanangas, we can use that knowledge to create 
the appropriate conditions. Without these conditions present, the 
jhanangas will never have cause to arise, no matter what. If 
established, jhana MUST arise.

This is the one consistent reality that keeps striking me as I delve 
more into the Abhidhamma. This is the most amazing technical 
meditation manual ever devised. There is nothing dry about it. I 
never cease to be amazed at the interconnections among things that 
keep appearing. But perhaps the most interesting discovery I have 
made so far is the role of the various conditions, and that by 
knowing the conditions for the arising of certain factors, we gain 
the knowledge to create those conditions ourselves. 

> Similarly, I read on dhammastudy.com that it is hard for 
satipatthana 
> to arise. Perhaps it is more meaningful to say that satipatthana 
does 
> not arise as often as other states of mind, again due to the 
> conditions that prevail. 

That's why creating the appropriate conditions is of the utmost 
importance. I do not speak from my ass on this one. The introduction 
of one eensy-weensy hindrance can destroy jhana practice. I know how 
easy this is, because I lost my entire sitting meditation practice 
for two years because my commute left me just bedraggled enough my 
meditation stalled. There was the presence of a wee bit too much 
uddhacca & kukucca. And that was all it took to go into a death-
spiral where I couldn't meditate for two years, lost all 
psychological armoring, and lived experiencing more dukkha than I'd 
ever experienced before discovering the dhamma or meditation. Far 
more.

Whoops! Those are the real-world implications of ignoring the 
importance of conditions, or being ignorant of them (or being 
cognizant of them and still being unable to do a damn thinga bout 
them anyway). Until I began studying the Abhidhamma I didn't see how 
all these factors fit together. This "failure," though, was actually 
a blessing in disguise, because I had to learn to overcome painful 
situations without the suppression of the nivaranas from jhana 
meditation, using various other strategies to overcome dukkha, which 
I had foolishly believed would be solved by jhana and insight 
meditation alone.

 
5332 From: Howard 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ease and stuff

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 5/25/01 3:41:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Herman writes:


> I am now becoming indulgent here, but another one that comes up 
> regularly is that cittas arise and fall so rapidly, we can't really 
> keep up with them , or words to that effect. Cittas are neither slow 
> or fast, each one carries out their function perfectly, neither 
> hurried nor slow, just so.
> 
==========================
       Well, I guess the question is: fast ot slow as compared to *what*? In 
one sense, it is the flow of cittas that *is* time. In another sense, 
however, we can say that the flow of cittas is fast compared to the flow of 
rupas which are the (primary) objects of the cittas. As I understand it, 
there may be a sequence of many cittas which take "the same" rupa as object, 
and, in that sense the cittas pass by more quickly than their objects. (That 
"same rupa" would actually be an abstraction; I suppose that the reality 
would be that of one citta cognizing one arammana, but when there is little 
or no discernable difference between successive rupas, they will be 
identified with each other by the mind.)

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5334 From: Dan 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Question

 
  Suppose someone steals a bike. Do they do so because they stole 
things in this and previous lives, and the unwholesome accumulations 
conditioned their stealing today?

 
5335 From: Dan 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Answer

 
  No. Stealing is kamma, not vipaka.

 
5336 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma-vatta (wasAnswer

 
  dear dan,
There are three rounds : kamma-vatta(action),
vipaka-vatta(result) and kilesa-vatta (defilements such as
greed, aversion, ignorance). The actual moments of experience
through the doorways are vipaka (result) but immediately there
is reaction which is defilement(kilesa) and
this conditions kamma. These rounds are all spinning now,
continually, as they always have in samsara. 
The three rounds are all conditioned and closely related. Kamma
also is conditioned. 
This is a topic that we seldom discuss but these three rounds
can eludicidate much about the Dhamma - and thus about our
lives. 
Someone sees a bike: that is the concept. 
What actually happens is visible object conditions seeing
consciousness (vipaka). this then conditions kilesa which if of
sufficient strenght conditions kamma (stealing). In the future
that act will bring a suitable result... and so the round goes
on and on...
If mother teresa saw a bike she wouldn't have stolen it. There
weren't the strenght of defilements(kilesa) able to condition
that type of action (kamma).
robert


--- Dan wrote:
> No. Stealing is kamma, not vipaka.



 
5337 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott  <Moderators> 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:21pm
Subject: Fwd: questions

 
  --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"
 wrote: 

> Subject: questions
> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:03:52 +0200
> 
> Dear Sarah & Jonothan,
> 
> 		Recently I have posted questions on the issue of
> converts..
> and doesn't seems to get much response.. I hope I
> haven't offended
> anyone....but some how I cannot shurg off this
> nagging questions.. why a
> bron christians chose to become buddhist believing
> in rebirth whereas the
> birth religion of gwai loh which is christianity
> goes against this idea....
> how do I answer my freinds question of rebirth as
> there are no prove of this
> ideas existence....( which is what is rebutted to
> me)... I know that
> Buddhism usually uses a reverse deduction to come to
> this.... but I wanted
> to know from a more personal level as to the reason
> as in what change ? If
> you don't want to answer this question.. do let me
> know... you are not
> obligated to answer any of this question... either
> this or maybe I haven't
> receiving replies from other group members... thank
> you for your time and
> help...
> 
> may you be well and happy,
> Loke CL



 
5338 From: Dan 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:24pm
Subject: From Abhidhamma

 
  Katha-vatthu XVII 3 (PTS, SZ Aung, CAF Rhys Davids):

"Controverted point: That all this is from kamma. 
Theravadin: 'Do you then include kamma itself as due to kamma (1)? 
And do you imply that all this is simply the result of bygone causes 
(2)? You a committed here to what you must deny. Again, you imply, by 
your proposition, that all this is [not so much kamma as] from the 
reulst of [still earlier] kamma. If you deny (3), you deny your first 
proposition. If you assent (4), you imply that one may commit murder 
throu [not kamma, but] the reusult of kamma. You assent (5)? Then 
murder, [though a result], is itself productive of [kammic] result. 
You assent? Then the result of kamma is productive of result. You 
deny? Then it is barren of result, and murder must a fortiori be 
barren of [kammic] result... This argument applies equally to other 
immoral acts--to theft, to wicked speech--lying, abuse, slander, and 
idle talk--to burglary, raiding, looting, highway robbery, adulatery, 
destorying houses in village or town. It applies equally to moral 
acts: to giving gifts--e.g., giving the four necessaries. If any of 
these is done as the result of kamma, and themselves produce kammic 
result, then [you are on the horns of this dilemma: tha] either 
result-of-kamma can itself produce effects, or any good or bad deed 
has no kammic result.'

(1) This is rejected as fusing kamma with its result---comy.
(2) That the present is merely a series of effect and without 
initiative. See on the erroneous opinion (stated in AN i. 173ff; 
Vibhanga 367) Ledi Sadaw, JPTS, 1913-1914, p. 118.
(3) If all is from kamma, then that causal kamma effcected in a past 
life must have been the result of kamma effected in a still earlier 
life.--comy.
(4) A shoot cannot produce a shoot, but in the continuity of life a 
seed is the product of another seed, and by this analogy kamma is the 
result of previous kamma. So at forst rejecting, he then assents.--
Comy."

 
5339 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ease and stuff

 
  Dear herman.
I agree with all this. 
I think we can say cittas fall away incredibly swiftly but as
you indicate they are doing so at exactly the speed they should
- so actually not too fast nor too slow, just enough to do what
they do.
roberrt
--- Herman wrote:
> Dear Erik et al ,
> 
> I am not attributing the use of the words to you, Erik,  but I
> wonder 
> whether the concepts of difficulty and ease apply at all to
> jhanas. 
> Wouldn't it be fair to say that when the conditions are not
> right 
> jhana cannot arise, and when conditions are right jhana can
> arise?
> 
> An eight year old with certain accumulations may dwell in the
> jhanas 
> at will , while the most learned man with other accumulations
> may 
> never get near that state.
> 
> Similarly, I read on dhammastudy.com that it is hard for
> satipatthana 
> to arise. Perhaps it is more meaningful to say that
> satipatthana does 
> not arise as often as other states of mind, again due to the 
> conditions that prevail. 
> 
> I am now becoming indulgent here, but another one that comes
> up 
> regularly is that cittas arise and fall so rapidly, we can't
> really 
> keep up with them , or words to that effect. Cittas are
> neither slow 
> or fast, each one carries out their function perfectly,
> neither 
> hurried nor slow, just so.
> 
> That's what I think. What do you think?
> 
> 
> Regards
> 



 
5340 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Dear C.L.,

I'm quite sure you haven't offended anyone and you asked an interesting question. I don't think
there's any reason for replies or follow-up by you to be off-list and you may get more replies
when others have time. People choose which questions they wish to answer. 

Actually I thought the reponses you got were very helpful, but maybe they weren't what you were
expecting. In the end, as Jon suggested, we can speculate about the reasons for taking an interest
in Buddhism but really there are so many diferent conditions and factors involved. We could spend
our lives trying unsuccessfully to 'work out ' all these different conditions. Even in an Asian
Buddhist family, we will see that one member really studies the Teachings and other members really
show very little interest at all. The more we understand about accumulations and conditions, the
less surprising this is.

For my part, in this life, I was brought up in a very strong Christian family, but found the
'belief system' increasingly frustrating. I was also very interested to understand more about how
the mind worked and studied psychology at universtity for this reason. However I wasn't satisfied
at the end with the scientific and other explanations and found them too limiting. Buddhism
appealed from the start because of the emphasis on testing and proving for oneself and most
important of all because of ANATTA. Later the abhidhamma began to answer all the questions I'd
ever had about life and the way the mind works.

Most if not all religions encourage sila (morality) and many encourage concentration practices.
The teaching of anatta (not self) is unique to the Buddha's Teachings. We can test and prove at
this moment that there is no self or God in the seeing, hearing and other realities.

What is important is to understand more now. We can even talk about the rebirth of each moment of
citta (consciousness) now. Is the seeing now the same as the seeing a moment ago? Is there
happiness one moment and sadness the next? Which is 'me'? This is the way to understand rebirth at
this moment, by beginning to understand these phenomena better. Rebirth at the end of this life is
just another moment too..!

We may have different skin colour or have been brought up in different places, but these Teachings
are universal and the problems and wrong views we start with know no barriers!

Best wishes and I hope to hear from you again.

Sarah

>  wrote: 
> 
> > Subject: questions
> > Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:03:52 +0200
> > 
> > Dear Sarah & Jonothan,
> > 
> > 		Recently I have posted questions on the issue of
> > converts..
> > and doesn't seems to get much response.. I hope I
> > haven't offended
> > anyone....but some how I cannot shurg off this
> > nagging questions.. why a
> > bron christians chose to become buddhist believing
> > in rebirth whereas the
> > birth religion of gwai loh which is christianity
> > goes against this idea....
> > how do I answer my freinds question of rebirth as
> > there are no prove of this
> > ideas existence....( which is what is rebutted to
> > me)... I know that
> > Buddhism usually uses a reverse deduction to come to
> > this.... but I wanted
> > to know from a more personal level as to the reason
> > as in what change ? If
> > you don't want to answer this question.. do let me
> > know... you are not
> > obligated to answer any of this question... either
> > this or maybe I haven't
> > receiving replies from other group members... thank
> > you for your time and
> > help...
> > 
> > may you be well and happy,
> > Loke CL



 
5341 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] greetings from Nina : Sarah

 
  Hi Num,

I used to have the same problem as you (and many others) with another server. Since using the
yahoo one, Y've had none....and find they usually go through without any delays. It 'smaybe a
deliberate policy on yahoo group's part but I won't go into that!

Just take your time...we'll be around for a good while to come! I'm always behind on replies (esp.
difficult ones to you, Kom and Erik!!).

The weather must be getting better for your tennis now! It' s getting pretty hot and humid here.

Speak soon,

Sarah



--- Num wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> 
> I just checked the dsg on yahoo group.  I missed a lot of mails actually.  I 
> didn't get your mail on "Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana", either.   
> Let me checked them out and get in touch with you later.   I usually check my 
> mail on AOL only.  I set my mail on other servers to fwd the mail to my aol 
> account.  
> 
> Num
> 



 
5342 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  CL

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: > Dear Jon...
> 
> 	I am not quenched.... no doubt of past good karma and chance upon it
> this life do plays a role.. but however with each different lives conditions
> and environments will differ thus.. the mind is evolving... and the actions
> in this life is what interests me.. what part that you are not confortable
> with that makes you want to change....?  you can reply off list if you
> wish... thank you in advance

I have no problem discussing this on-list, but if you could explain why you are so keen to hear
about particular individual cases, it might help me in giving a more 'quenching' answer.

Actually, the best source of people's reasons for 'converting' to Buddhism is the suttas, since
all followers in the Buddhas's time were 'converts' (there were no Buddhists before his
enlightenment).  You will see from the suttas that it was by no means always a matter of being
dissatisfied with the person's family religion.  Some who came to meet the Buddha did so thinking
that they could out-debate him, some had led dissolute or criminal lives up to that time, some
continued to follow the traditions of their religion even after considering themselves followers. 
But all those who became enlightened within that lifetime were obviously 'ripe' for enlightenment,
through understanding accumulated in countless previous lives.

All those who declared themselves followers did so on the basis of the light that the dhamma had
shed where previously there had been darkness.  I suspect that the same reason would apply in most
cases today.

CL, please share with us something of your own thinking on this question.

Jon


 
5343 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 3:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ease and stuff

 
  Herman

On your point about the speed of cittas -

> I am now becoming indulgent here, but another one that comes up 
> regularly is that cittas arise and fall so rapidly, we can't really 
> keep up with them , or words to that effect. Cittas are neither slow 
> or fast, each one carries out their function perfectly, neither 
> hurried nor slow, just so.

I can think of a couple of reasons why the question of the speed of cittas might be brought up
time to time.

The first is to illustrate the fact that the reality (individual moments of consciousness, never
more that one at a time, each falling away completely before the next arises) is completely
different to the apparent (continuous and contemporaneous experiences through multiple doorways).

The second is to counter the belief many people hold that they are able to 'experience' individual
cittas arising and falling away.

Jon

--- Herman wrote: > Dear Erik et al ,
> 
> I am not attributing the use of the words to you, Erik,  but I wonder 
> whether the concepts of difficulty and ease apply at all to jhanas. 
> Wouldn't it be fair to say that when the conditions are not right 
> jhana cannot arise, and when conditions are right jhana can arise?
> 
> An eight year old with certain accumulations may dwell in the jhanas 
> at will , while the most learned man with other accumulations may 
> never get near that state.
> 
> Similarly, I read on dhammastudy.com that it is hard for satipatthana 
> to arise. Perhaps it is more meaningful to say that satipatthana does 
> not arise as often as other states of mind, again due to the 
> conditions that prevail. 



 
5344 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 3:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  Erik

--- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > --- Erik wrote:
> > > What I didn't realize was I'd never make any progress so long as 
> my 
> > > mind was defiled by so much craving, anger, etc. When I was 
> given  
> > > the practice of tonglen (Tibetan metta-bhabvana) it purified so 
> much 
> > > in a few months of practice it got rid of enough of the 
> hindrances to 
> > > make meditation possible. It sure made me feel like a million 
> bucks. 
> > > That, and a little MDMA chemotherapy, which helped me identify 
> > > samatha (helped bring about kaya & citta passadhi and a big 
> AHA!), 
> > > plus the bliss of tummo yoga, brought it all together for me.
> > 
> > Erik
> > Sorry, but what is MDMN chemotherapy?
> 
> I have no idea what MDMN would be. MDMA is 
> methelynedioxymethamphetamine, otherwise known as Ecstasy, X, 
> whatever. You know, the stuff they are throwing people in jail for.

And I suppose Timothy Leary was your guru?!

If Ecstacy and yogic breathing helped you see/experience something that your studies of the dhamma
had not led you to see/experience, that would suggest that the something was not the dhamma or
anything to do with kusala.  But no doubt you see it otherwise?

Jon


 
5345 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 4:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Answer

 
  Dan

I believe I understand the question -

> Suppose someone steals a bike. Do they do so because they stole 
> things in this and previous lives, and the unwholesome accumulations 
> conditioned their stealing today?

and I agree with the statement given in the answer -

> No. Stealing is kamma, not vipaka.

But I haven't grasped the reasoning behind the 'No'.  Could you amplify, please.  Thanks.

Jon


 
5346 From: Tori Korshak   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 7:59pm
Subject: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Group,

I am a lurker here attempting the transition to occasional contributor. I 
live in London with my husband and two grown children who still live at 
home although both are gainfully employed. They are not Buddhists although 
they know a lot of Dhamma from having to live with me, so at least it's not 
like a foreign language.

I gain a lot from this list. In particular, the practical application of 
Abhidhamma has changed my practice. Many people seem to find Abhidhamma 
very dry, enumerative, and abstract, but with your help, I find this is 
less and less true for me, for example Robert's post on Kamma-Vatta from 25 
May. Robert and Sarah have tried to coax me out of my seclusion, but until 
now I haven't been up to it. For me, all theory must be useful and grounded 
in real life experience, stepping out of the merely intellectual  (or 
solipisistic) into the world we live in, otherwise what's it all for?

Many thanks to all.
Metta,
Victoria

P.S. I am concerned about the plight of Cybele who is ill and about to be 
made homeless. I know some members have generously helped her already. If 
there are any others who would like to make even the smallest contribution 
I know it would be much appreciated and carefully used.
Feel free to write me off list if you prefer or write to Cybele directly.

 
5347 From: Dan 
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 8:44pm
Subject: Re: Answer

 
  At the moments of stealing, there are the volition, decision, and 
action to steal. The stealing is done because of present action, not 
past action. This is discussed in the excerpt from Katta-vatthu (and 
comentary) that I posted under the tab "From Abhidhamma."

 
5348 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  Num

Hi!  Thanks for your comments and thoughts on this topic.

[I said]
> <<<<<<I believe that the reason why we find this fascinating or puzzling is that we
>  hold the innate view
>  that a person's make-up is largely the result of his environment and
>  upbringing in this life.    We all of course have our perceived set of
>  reasons or series of
>  events that led us to 'find'  the dhamma in this life, but these will
>  probalby be of superficial
>  relevance compared to the influence of past accumulations and deeds.>>>>
> 
[You said]
> I think this is somewhat tricky reasoning.  Because the future has not yet arrived, so only the
> present and the past can give an influence on us. Sound infallible to me.  I think that both
> the accumulation and the environment factor are somewhat almost equal in theier effects.

I am not sure about the relative weightings of accumulations vs. environmental factors, or whether
it is possible to generalise about this at all.  I would be interested to know of any references
from the texts on this point.  Otherwise, I am not sure how we could ever be sure about the
answer.

  Every
> interaction between environment and citta will inevitably become a past accumulation.   In my
> opinion, good environment supports and interacts with citta (nama, mind, brain, whatever we want
> to name it).  I wonder, if I born in a environment that food is not sufficient, I have to steal
> or to fight to make a living, my parents were abusive, I could not afford to go to school, can I
> have a chance to study Buddhism or meet friends in Dhamma???  I know that I better say "never
> say never".   But If I born in an environment that there is no knowledge of Buddhism available,
> I don't think I can become a Buddhist, the dhamma is too deep and too hard for me to understand
> it on my own. 

I'm sure what you say is generally true, but it's a question of degree.  Two people born into the
same environment could end up following quite different paths - one may succeed in overcoming the
obstacles you describe, while the other may remain a victim of his/her circumstances for life.

> Well, that my accomulation, I work in genetic and medical field.  To me environment and gene
> always interact, and I am still perplex in, I can call it, both conventional and paramattha
> truth.  

Yes, I can see why this area interests you.  No doubt your training emphasises the influence of
factors in the present life.  There is no reason why you should not carry out your practice in
accordance with the views of medical science, even though as far as your interest in the dhamma is
concerned you accept the possibility of a somewhat different state of affairs than those views
assume.  Does this make sense?

Jon



 
5349 From: Erik 
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik
> 
> --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan 
Abbott  wrote:
> > > --- Erik wrote:
> > > > What I didn't realize was I'd never make any progress so long 
as 
> > my 
> > > > mind was defiled by so much craving, anger, etc. When I was 
> > given  
> > > > the practice of tonglen (Tibetan metta-bhabvana) it purified 
so 
> > much 
> > > > in a few months of practice it got rid of enough of the 
> > hindrances to 
> > > > make meditation possible. It sure made me feel like a million 
> > bucks. 
> > > > That, and a little MDMA chemotherapy, which helped me 
identify 
> > > > samatha (helped bring about kaya & citta passadhi and a big 
> > AHA!), 
> > > > plus the bliss of tummo yoga, brought it all together for me.
> > > 
> > > Erik
> > > Sorry, but what is MDMN chemotherapy?
> > 
> > I have no idea what MDMN would be. MDMA is 
> > methelynedioxymethamphetamine, otherwise known as Ecstasy, X, 
> > whatever. You know, the stuff they are throwing people in jail 
for.
> 
> And I suppose Timothy Leary was your guru?!

All psychedelic drugs are my gurus, as are all people and all life 
situations. In my own case, these drugs have served as one of the 
most important tools of my entire practice. I wouldn't even be a 
Buddhist save for the grace of a POWERFUL Dhamma experience with LSD 
at age sixteen, that began the process of destroying the 
indoctrination I receives as a kid into my parents' religion. It is 
powerful medicine to counteract "hardening of the categories." I 
think everyone with a healthy mind should have at least a few 
psychedelic experiences in their lifetime in a controlled setting.

> If Ecstacy and yogic breathing helped you see/experience something 
that your studies of the dhamma
> had not led you to see/experience, that would suggest that the 
something was not the dhamma or
> anything to do with kusala.  

What specifically would suggest it is neither dhamma nor kusala? Do 
psychedelic drugs possess some unique entity in all the triple-realm 
that makes them entirely different from all other phenomena?

I am very curious to see how these composed entities--psychedelic 
drugs--could possibly possess any substantial entity such that they 
MUST be akusala or adhamma by way of their own sabhava. Because that 
is essentially what you are suggesting. And if that is the meaning of 
what you're saying, then it is miccha-ditthi, plain and simple. 
Because it denies both anatta and kamma. It denies anatta by 
suggesting that there are self-existent entities that possess 
intrinsically akusala nature. And it denies kamma at the same time 
via denial of anatta, as well as denial of the fact that all 
experience, kusala or akusala, arises with kamma-vipaka paccaya, 
meaning that there is no inherent reality to these drugs apart from 
kamma-vipaka, and that it is vipaka that determines their relative 
usefulness (or lack thereof). So the only akusala or adhamma I can 
see here is that species of miccha-ditthi that is denying both anatta 
and kamma.

 
5350 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 431. Dosa and unpleasant feeling

 
  o
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:59:09 EDT
> From: Num
> Subject: Re: greetings from Nina
> 
> Hi Nina,
> 
> May I also say welcome to dsg. Glad to see u here.
> 
> I am very busy lately, but let me ask you and the group something which is
> not clear for me.
> 
 
> <<<I have to correct something I wrote to Robert a few weeks ago about
> awareness of dosa. Sarah had taken this up with Acharn Sujin and pointed
> this out to me: I wrote that before realizing the difference between nama
> and rupa we cannot be aware of dosa. It should be: we cannot know precisely
> the characteristic of dosa as nama. Thus, although we are mixing up nama and
> rupa, at least there can be a beginning of awareness of dosa, and this is of
> course mixed with many moments of thinking. If there is no beginning, how
> can it ever be known as it is.
> What Sarah pointed out was an excellent reminder not to neglect awareness of
> dosa, even slight degrees, such as a little uneasiness. >>>
> 
> I am still struggle at thinking level.  Here is my question,  since dosa
> cetasika always and only coarises with domanassa-vedana.  I have a hard time
> seeing what the different between the two.   When I am mad, there are long
> series of feeling arise. I can feel I am angry, I can feel it's kind of
> tension in my various muscles, I feel the heat, uncalmed, uneasy feeling,
> dissatisfaction, impatience and unkindness even at time destructive intention
> (hmmm, sorry I can be a bad guy).   May I ask what exactly is character of
> dosa and also domanassa-vedana?
> 
> Alright, have to go.
> 
> Num
> 
> Dear Num, This is a difficult question. There are many mental phenomena, nama,
and physical phenomena, rupa, at the same time. We know in theory that dosa,
aversion, dislikes the object, that the consciousness, citta, accompanied by
aversion knows the object in the unwholesome way, that unpleasant feeling
feels, <tastes or savours> the unpleasant object, that physical phenomena,
rupas, conditioned by aversion are again different realities. But
theoretical knowledge, as you know, is different from direct experience of
characteristics. It cannot be as precise. We all tend to define phenomena,
to name them, to try to catch them. When we think about dosa and unpleasant
feeling, the objects are concepts. When we are thinking, there is not the
direct, precise understanding of a characteristic of reality which appears
now. Thinking is also conditioned, if we had not studied aversion, dosa,
unpleasant feeling, and we had not heard that these namas condition rupa, we
would not be able to think of them now. We should not mind that thinking
arises, it is a reality of daily life, it is dhamma, apppearing now,
non-self. We can begin to investigate thinking when it appears, a reality
which knows something, otherwise it is <my thinking>.
You mention rupas conditioned by dosa and use the words tension of muscles
to describe the hardness it conditions, and mention heat as conditioned by
dosa. If we do not try to locate these rupas and do not name or define them,
they can be realized as just rupas which do not know anything. They are
different from nama which experiences or feels. We are so busy defining
realities, dwelling on them that we may overlook the truth that nama
experiences something and rupa does not know anything. That is all, thank
you for reminding me of this by your question.
The study of different realities like dosa and unpleasant feeling and other
realities is a condition for the development of direct understanding, and as
Robert also said, all the moments of study and investigation are accumulated
and form a condition for the arising of direct awareness, but we do not know
when. 
Acharn Sujin said that dhammas arise and fall away too rapidly for anyone to
do anything, there should be no idea of self who knows; there is at a
particular moment just this or that characteristic. The truth of dhammas
which have arisen already because of conditions can be investigated, no
matter it is nama or rupa.
 We should not mind to be beginners, to begin to investigate. There are so
many realities, not just dosa, there are also stinginess, jealousy and
regret arising with dosa. There is attachment, lobha, conceit, seeing,
hearing. If we fix our attention on a particular reality such as dosa (I do
not say that you do that, Num) we may forget about all the other realities.
To come back to your question: if there is no desire to select particular
realities such as dosa or unpleasant feeling, but awareness of any reality
of the present moment, also thinking, realities can very, very gradually be
known as they are. But not right away. If we try to know the difference
between different realities, we shall not know them, only right
understanding, pa~n~naa, can know this, not we.
<We cannot do anything, realities are beyond control>, when people hear such
words from Acharn Sujin they run away or get desperate, or think of
fatalism. This was discussed already many times here. At the same time
Acharn Sujin stresses energy, viriya, as a perfection that should be
developed. I downloaded the article on this subject, translated by Amara,
Varee, modified by Robert. There should be    < unwavering strength to
examine and know the characteristic of nama dhamma and rupa dhamma under any
circumstances. There is never the thought that the characteristic of nama
dhamma and rupa dhamma cannot be known at a particular moment.>
Energy or effort is not self, we should not forget that, but someone's words
can be the condition for the arising of wholesome effort. That is why the
Buddha said:<do not be neglectful, be mindful>.
Acharn also said that the perfection of energy is indispensable in the
elimination of unwholesomeness: <Even though one knows what is good but one
does not endeavour to pursue it, one can never succeed.>
She often said that we should be brave and cheerful in investigating all
kinds of realities, no matter they are pleasant or unpleasant, wholesome or
unwholesome. She also used the word hero, one has to be heroic. Why? Because
it is a long time development, as Robert also pointed out, it takes endless
lives and the knife handle one holds each day wears away so slowly that one
does not see that it wears away. So it is with ignorance and other
defilements, progress may hardly be noticable.
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>

 
5351 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat May 26, 2001 10:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  Erik

> > And I suppose Timothy Leary was your guru?!
> 
> All psychedelic drugs are my gurus, as are all people and all life 
> situations. In my own case, these drugs have served as one of the 
> most important tools of my entire practice. I wouldn't even be a 
> Buddhist save for the grace of a POWERFUL Dhamma experience with LSD 
> at age sixteen, that began the process of destroying the 
> indoctrination I receives as a kid into my parents' religion. It is 
> powerful medicine to counteract "hardening of the categories." I 
> think everyone with a healthy mind should have at least a few 
> psychedelic experiences in their lifetime in a controlled setting.

I can see that you feel rather strongly about this.  My lighthearted comment was perhaps out of
place.

> > If Ecstacy and yogic breathing helped you see/experience something 
> that your studies of the dhamma
> > had not led you to see/experience, that would suggest that the 
> something was not the dhamma or
> > anything to do with kusala.  
> 
> What specifically would suggest it is neither dhamma nor kusala? Do 
> psychedelic drugs possess some unique entity in all the triple-realm 
> that makes them entirely different from all other phenomena?
> 
> I am very curious to see how these composed entities--psychedelic 
> drugs--could possibly possess any substantial entity such that they 
> MUST be akusala or adhamma by way of their own sabhava. Because that 
> is essentially what you are suggesting. And if that is the meaning of 
> what you're saying, then it is miccha-ditthi, plain and simple. 
> Because it denies both anatta and kamma. It denies anatta by 
> suggesting that there are self-existent entities that possess 
> intrinsically akusala nature. And it denies kamma at the same time 
> via denial of anatta, as well as denial of the fact that all 
> experience, kusala or akusala, arises with kamma-vipaka paccaya, 
> meaning that there is no inherent reality to these drugs apart from 
> kamma-vipaka, and that it is vipaka that determines their relative 
> usefulness (or lack thereof). So the only akusala or adhamma I can 
> see here is that species of miccha-ditthi that is denying both anatta 
> and kamma.

Erik, I will reflect on what you have said here.

Jon


 
5352 From: Herman 
Date: Sun May 27, 2001 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Ease and stuff

 
  Thank you Jon and everyone else for your comments about this,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Herman
> 
> On your point about the speed of cittas -
> 
> > I am now becoming indulgent here, but another one that comes up 
> > regularly is that cittas arise and fall so rapidly, we can't 
really 
> > keep up with them , or words to that effect. Cittas are neither 
slow 
> > or fast, each one carries out their function perfectly, neither 
> > hurried nor slow, just so.
> 
> I can think of a couple of reasons why the question of the speed of 
cittas might be brought up
> time to time.
> 
> The first is to illustrate the fact that the reality (individual 
moments of consciousness, never
> more that one at a time, each falling away completely before the 
next arises) is completely
> different to the apparent (continuous and contemporaneous 
experiences through multiple doorways).

I trust that  I won't be banned from this group for admitting that 
there is no experience in this five fold mass of cittas at citta 
level. I accept readily that by the time there is any awareness here, 
about a billion cittas with a common theme or object have arisen and 
gone.

> 
> The second is to counter the belief many people hold that they are 
able to 'experience' individual
> cittas arising and falling away.


Yet the reality is that it is the cittas that "experience" the people 
ie the notion of self somehow arises out of the stream of 
consciusness.

Buddhism doesn't seem to be big on origins. As opposed to 
Christianity which will give you accounts of creation etc etc.

Any ideas or texts which explain the ubiquity, pervasiveness of self? 
I do not struggle with not-self, I just wonder why the opposite seems 
to be the easier idea to adopt.

Thanks and Regards


Herman


> 
> Jon
> 
> --- Herman wrote: > Dear Erik et al ,
> > 
> > I am not attributing the use of the words to you, Erik,  but I 
wonder 
> > whether the concepts of difficulty and ease apply at all to 
jhanas. 
> > Wouldn't it be fair to say that when the conditions are not right 
> > jhana cannot arise, and when conditions are right jhana can arise?
> > 
> > An eight year old with certain accumulations may dwell in the 
jhanas 
> > at will , while the most learned man with other accumulations may 
> > never get near that state.
> > 
> > Similarly, I read on dhammastudy.com that it is hard for 
satipatthana 
> > to arise. Perhaps it is more meaningful to say that satipatthana 
does 
> > not arise as often as other states of mind, again due to the 
> > conditions that prevail. 
> 

 
5353 From: Herman 
Date: Sun May 27, 2001 8:01pm
Subject: Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Victoria,

Thank you for making yourself known.

The list is up to about 120 members, yet there are probably less than 
10 that post on a regular basis.

What barriers are there that hinder people from participating 
actively, do you think?

(I do not think there is a problen with lurking, it is just that over 
time you get posts from people who are obviously eminently capable 
and erudite, yet they refrain from actively contributing, and I just 
wonder why that is)

Kind Regards

Herman

(My finacee's name is Victoria, her nick is Tori as well, kind of 
cute I thought)



--- Tori Korshak  wrote:
> 
> Dear Group,
> 
> I am a lurker here attempting the transition to occasional 
contributor. I 
> live in London with my husband and two grown children who still 
live at 
> home although both are gainfully employed. They are not Buddhists 
although 
> they know a lot of Dhamma from having to live with me, so at least 
it's not 
> like a foreign language.
> 
> I gain a lot from this list. In particular, the practical 
application of 
> Abhidhamma has changed my practice. Many people seem to find 
Abhidhamma 
> very dry, enumerative, and abstract, but with your help, I find 
this is 
> less and less true for me, for example Robert's post on Kamma-Vatta 
from 25 
> May. Robert and Sarah have tried to coax me out of my seclusion, 
but until 
> now I haven't been up to it. For me, all theory must be useful and 
grounded 
> in real life experience, stepping out of the merely intellectual  
(or 
> solipisistic) into the world we live in, otherwise what's it all 
for?
> 
> Many thanks to all.
> Metta,
> Victoria
> 
> P.S. I am concerned about the plight of Cybele who is ill and about 
to be 
> made homeless. I know some members have generously helped her 
already. If 
> there are any others who would like to make even the smallest 
contribution 
> I know it would be much appreciated and carefully used.
> Feel free to write me off list if you prefer or write to Cybele 
directly.

 
5354 From: Tori Korshak   
Date: Sun May 27, 2001 10:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Herman,

Thank you for your post and your interest. I really wouldn't want to 
speculate on what reason others might have for not actively contributing. 
For myself, I am still feeling my way in terms of sharing with a group of 
strangers (as opposed to just a few), although this doesn't always seem 
quite right as I take advantage of their sharing. I feel I have so much to 
learn, but I will try to contribute more. It is sometimes a bit daunting to 
contribute because of the high level of knowledge of some members.

Hope to hear from you again.
Metta,
Victoria





At 12:01 PM 5/27/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Victoria,
>
>Thank you for making yourself known.
>
>The list is up to about 120 members, yet there are probably less than
>10 that post on a regular basis.
>
>What barriers are there that hinder people from participating
>actively, do you think?
>
>(I do not think there is a problen with lurking, it is just that over
>time you get posts from people who are obviously eminently capable
>and erudite, yet they refrain from actively contributing, and I just
>wonder why that is)
>
>Kind Regards
>
>Herman
>
>(My finacee's name is Victoria, her nick is Tori as well, kind of
>cute I thought)
>
>
>
>--- Tori Korshak  wrote:
> >
> > Dear Group,
> >
> > I am a lurker here attempting the transition to occasional
>contributor. I
> > live in London with my husband and two grown children who still
>live at
> > home although both are gainfully employed. They are not Buddhists
>although
> > they know a lot of Dhamma from having to live with me, so at least
>it's not
> > like a foreign language.
> >
> > I gain a lot from this list. In particular, the practical
>application of
> > Abhidhamma has changed my practice. Many people seem to find
>Abhidhamma
> > very dry, enumerative, and abstract, but with your help, I find
>this is
> > less and less true for me, for example Robert's post on Kamma-Vatta
>from 25
> > May. Robert and Sarah have tried to coax me out of my seclusion,
>but until
> > now I haven't been up to it. For me, all theory must be useful and
>grounded
> > in real life experience, stepping out of the merely intellectual
>(or
> > solipisistic) into the world we live in, otherwise what's it all
>for?
> >
> > Many thanks to all.
> > Metta,
> > Victoria
> >
> > P.S. I am concerned about the plight of Cybele who is ill and about
>to be
> > made homeless. I know some members have generously helped her
>already. If
> > there are any others who would like to make even the smallest
>contribution
> > I know it would be much appreciated and carefully used.
> > Feel free to write me off list if you prefer or write to Cybele
>directly.
 
 

 
5355 From: jaran 
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:55am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 431. Dosa and unpleasant feeling

 
  Nina and Num:

A late welcome to you two. Thank you for a good question from Num and 
a GREAT answer from Nina. It says it all about how dhammas appear to 
different degrees of panna, how panna develops and what it takes.

Thanks again,
jaran

 
5356 From: jaran 
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 3:46am
Subject: Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Herman and Victoria:

A (very) late welcome to you two. Good to have you.

Why are other members not contributing? For me, the reasons range 
from laziness to limited knowledge of dhamma, with poor English in 
between. Sometimes many posts concern subjects that are beyond my 
interest and often beyond my understanding.

From my observation, some people find that this dsg group is not for 
them because it does not give them a quick fix for their problems, 
and it does not "sound right" since it does not talk about "formal 
practice".

A note about the purpose of 'dhamma study': the Buddha's teachings 
are not for memorizing or understanding just their theoretical 
stories, but for the listeners to understand the dhammas (realities) 
as they are [appearing right now]. So, after reading the posts, don't 
leave them at the dsg. Examine the things you read about [in dsg] in 
daily life, as pointed out in Nina's latest post. That's where the 
real study is.

It is always good to question every thing, but there are a lot that 
don't help us understand the realities *right now*. It takes right 
understanding to ask the right questions to make the right 
understanding grow further. What are the right understanding and 
questions? These are what you are going to learn about here.

All for now,
jaran


--- Tori Korshak  wrote:
> 
> Dear Herman,
> 
> Thank you for your post and your interest. I really wouldn't want 
to 
> speculate on what reason others might have for not actively 
contributing. 
> For myself, I am still feeling my way in terms of sharing with a 
group of 
> strangers (as opposed to just a few), although this doesn't always 
seem 
> quite right as I take advantage of their sharing. I feel I have so 
much to 
> learn, but I will try to contribute more. It is sometimes a bit 
daunting to 
> contribute because of the high level of knowledge of some members.
> 
> Hope to hear from you again.
> Metta,
> Victoria
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 12:01 PM 5/27/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >Dear Victoria,
> >
> >Thank you for making yourself known.
> >
> >The list is up to about 120 members, yet there are probably less 
than
> >10 that post on a regular basis.
> >
> >What barriers are there that hinder people from participating
> >actively, do you think?
> >
> >(I do not think there is a problen with lurking, it is just that 
over
> >time you get posts from people who are obviously eminently capable
> >and erudite, yet they refrain from actively contributing, and I 
just
> >wonder why that is)
> >
> >Kind Regards
> >
> >Herman
> >
> >(My finacee's name is Victoria, her nick is Tori as well, kind of
> >cute I thought)
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Tori Korshak  wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Group,
> > >
> > > I am a lurker here attempting the transition to occasional
> >contributor. I
> > > live in London with my husband and two grown children who still
> >live at
> > > home although both are gainfully employed. They are not 
Buddhists
> >although
> > > they know a lot of Dhamma from having to live with me, so at 
least
> >it's not
> > > like a foreign language.
> > >
> > > I gain a lot from this list. In particular, the practical
> >application of
> > > Abhidhamma has changed my practice. Many people seem to find
> >Abhidhamma
> > > very dry, enumerative, and abstract, but with your help, I find
> >this is
> > > less and less true for me, for example Robert's post on Kamma-
Vatta
> >from 25
> > > May. Robert and Sarah have tried to coax me out of my seclusion,
> >but until
> > > now I haven't been up to it. For me, all theory must be useful 
and
> >grounded
> > > in real life experience, stepping out of the merely intellectual
> >(or
> > > solipisistic) into the world we live in, otherwise what's it all
> >for?
> > >
> > > Many thanks to all.
> > > Metta,
> > > Victoria
> > >
> > > P.S. I am concerned about the plight of Cybele who is ill and 
about
> >to be
> > > made homeless. I know some members have generously helped her
> >already. If
> > > there are any others who would like to make even the smallest
> >contribution
> > > I know it would be much appreciated and carefully used.
> > > Feel free to write me off list if you prefer or write to Cybele
> >directly.
> >

 
5357 From: Antony 
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 0:06pm
Subject: why lurkers lurk and don't post

 
  I'm a bit of a lurker I guess. there's usually so much to read here 
and think about that there's no time for posting.

I think some people lack the confidence to post for their own 
personal reasons. 

I don't mean to be a lurker really but it somehow seems a bit rude to 
push in on a thread and have your say.

then there's the morbid fear of starting your own thread and hoping 
someone feels it's worthy enough to respond.

I guess you could do a whole psychological profile of this situation. 
I think it is very difficult to enculture a list and get enough 
people who are seriously intersted enough to help things along. I 
think that situation does exist here. Of course the road has been 
rocky and the good posters have left with the bad but there is a good 
environment here I think even the hardcore lurkers would agree with 
that. I would think many people lurk because that's what they do.

'Don't look this gift horse (of a list) in the mouth' as they say. I 
think it means if someone gives you a horse for nothing don't look 
for problems with it. Not that some of you haven't put a lot of work 
into making this list worthwhile but if you look at some of the other 
lists for comparison this is a good one. You have few people who post 
reams of quoted material for no particular reason (no-one at the 
moment I think) you have little agressive behaviour, not for a while 
anyway (I've been keeping quiet see) and you have few, if any, 
advertising posters swimming by.

How to encourage more posters? Perhaps you could encourage non-
posters to choose a subject either in person or off-line. Can you see 
who lurks but doesn't post in the administrative part of the list you 
could mail them and say "hey we saw you drop by etc. In one of the 
yahoo clubs that I had participated in some time back they used to 
send an email encouraging participation to all members. Perhaps you 
could have a subject of the week for open posting like: What the hell 
is KUSULA anyway (only an example)

If you are a lurker whey not consider posting something only if it is 
to express your appreciation of something you read here. I've done 
that kind of thing before. Hey that's an interesting conversation 
you're having! Here's an example: "Hey Herman, I like what you've 
been asking in the ease and stuff thread, My self is so pervasive and 
ubiquitous that I really start to think I'm me sometimes. I wouldn't 
mind seeing some textual references on that either."


Antony Brennan

 
5358 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:50pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Sarah,

	You mentioned below...
> Most if not all religions encourage sila (morality) and many encourage
> concentration practices.
> The teaching of anatta (not self) is unique to the Buddha's Teachings. We
> can test and prove at
> this moment that there is no self or God in the seeing, hearing and other
> realities.
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  
				we can test and prove this moment that there
is no self or God in the seeing, hearing and other realities... HOW ?

 
5359 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:05pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...

 
  Dear Jon,

		Regarding on my views on this issues ... well basically .. I
wanted to know the reasons behind a Gwai loh's conversion to Buddhism from
their birth religion like Christianity.. Let me get this out straight
first.. The Reason I raised these questions is NOT to stir yourself in
doubting yourself in choosing the Middle Path... but my own curiosity and
also me seeking for an answer ... the answer of questioning sometimes myself
on where I should stand.... I have been brought up in deity worshipping kind
of scene.. later in high school  I am exposed to the Dhamma.. which has been
guiding and been a major part of my life.... up until few years back.. I
have began to doubt this whole thing that I have embraced.... Knowing this
as impermanence (hence further proving the accuracy of the Dhamma) but
sometimes my heart does not rest well... on of the other reason is being
that I wish to be able to put forward the Buddhist idea when confronted by
Christians on the subject of debates in various aspect of the religions.. I
want to be able to spread the Dhamma better and not just let things be as
they are... (meaning that if I can change  the view points of a person to
embrace Dhamma isn't it good.. I know that this has also to do with the
other person's past karma to be able to expose and except it in this
life.....however when that someone is close to me... it is even more
unsettling to be just sitting by the sideline and watch and observe).. I
want to have you know is that I am not out to convert people .. but I just
doesn't want people close to me to be circling in samsara longer before they
found the Dhamma... and get back on track....

	Jon,
		I hope I didn't confuse you with the fast typing above...
should you require more information please write again...

		And also I have another question.... How do we explain
rebirth (the idea) to a Christian ? Some of my friends agrees that Buddhism
is good and true... except for one lie which is rebirth ? How do I get
around this ?

Thank you for you help

May you be well and happy always,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jonothan Abbott [SMTP:Jon]
> Sent:	Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:30 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Question...
> 
> CL
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: >
> Dear Jon...
> > 
> > 	I am not quenched.... no doubt of past good karma and chance upon it
> > this life do plays a role.. but however with each different lives
> conditions
> > and environments will differ thus.. the mind is evolving... and the
> actions
> > in this life is what interests me.. what part that you are not
> confortable
> > with that makes you want to change....?  you can reply off list if you
> > wish... thank you in advance
> 
> I have no problem discussing this on-list, but if you could explain why
> you are so keen to hear
> about particular individual cases, it might help me in giving a more
> 'quenching' answer.
> 
> Actually, the best source of people's reasons for 'converting' to Buddhism
> is the suttas, since
> all followers in the Buddhas's time were 'converts' (there were no
> Buddhists before his
> enlightenment).  You will see from the suttas that it was by no means
> always a matter of being
> dissatisfied with the person's family religion.  Some who came to meet the
> Buddha did so thinking
> that they could out-debate him, some had led dissolute or criminal lives
> up to that time, some
> continued to follow the traditions of their religion even after
> considering themselves followers. 
> But all those who became enlightened within that lifetime were obviously
> 'ripe' for enlightenment,
> through understanding accumulated in countless previous lives.
> 
> All those who declared themselves followers did so on the basis of the
> light that the dhamma had
> shed where previously there had been darkness.  I suspect that the same
> reason would apply in most
> cases today.
> 
> CL, please share with us something of your own thinking on this question.
> 
> Jon
> 
>

 
5360 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:57pm
Subject: anatta, ease and stuff

 
  Hi Antony, Howard, Herman, Jon, CL and all the others crying out for suttas on this topic:

--- Antony wrote: >  "Hey Herman, I like what you've 
> been asking in the ease and stuff thread, My self is so pervasive and 
> ubiquitous that I really start to think I'm me sometimes. I wouldn't 
> mind seeing some textual references on that either."

This is a great start when there is some idea that this is what is happening!

I think that all the suttas which talk about the 6 doorways and the 'world' as consisting of just
these realities reminds us, everytime there is a moment of awareness (at whatever level) that
these are the 'all'. For example, we read in the Kindred Sayings, Kindred Sayings on Sense, First
fifty,111,23:

"Monks I will teach you the all. Do you listen to it.  And what , monks, is the all?  It is eye
and object, ear and sound, nose and scent, tongue and savour, body and things tangible, mind and
mind-states.  That monks, is called 'the all'.'"

As Understanding and awareness develop and begin to know these realities, it becomes clearer and
clearer what is NOT reality and what is merely an illusion of self:

"I'Il will teach you a teaching, monks, for the abandoning of the all by fully knowing, by
comprehending it.  so you listen to it.  And what monks, is the teaching?

The eye , must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it. 
Objects..eye-consciousness...eye-contact..that pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or neutral
feeling...that also must be abandoned by fully knowing, by comprehending it.

The mind..mind-states..that pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or neurtral feeling..that also
must be abandoned by fully knowing it, by comprehending it.' (Par25)"

It may seem too difficult to be aware of realities if we read about the zillions of cittas
passing, but this is thinking. The characteristic of panna (wisdom) is that it can and does know a
reality when it appears to it and sati can be aware of a reality at the same time. I think it's
very helpful as Herman pointed out to begin to realize how very little awareness there really is
and how it's not as easy to develop satipatthana as some may think. On the other hand feeling
discouraged is just thinking with a kind of dosa (aversion) that can also be the object of
awareness!

Betty and Jon pointed out that as panna (wisdom) develops, more and more of the wrong view of self
becomes apparent.

I was just reading the final section in Nina's translation of  Khun Sujin's book 'Summary of PD',
'The Meaning of Anatta'. I'll try to just use extracts, particularly related to the sutta
discussed in this chapter. 

(For newbies, just a reminder that namas refer to mental phenomena or those realities which
experience an object such as seeing, hering, like, dislike. Rupas refer to physical phenomena or
those realities which are experienced and in turn don't experience anything such as visible
object, sound, hardness, softness etc.)

<start quote>
'The pa��� which eradicates wrong view knows clearly the characteristics of n�ma and r�pa as they
appear through the six doors and it realizes them as non-self. 
We read in the �Kindred Sayings�( IV, Sa��yatana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch
III, � 193, Ud�yin):

Once the venerable �nanda and the venerable Ud�yin were staying at Kosamb� in Ghosita Park. Then
the venerable Ud�yin, rising at eventide from his solitude, went to visit the Venerable �nanda,
and on coming to him... after the exchange of courtesies, sat down at one side. So seated the
venerable Ud�yin said to the venerable �nanda:
�Is it possible, friend �nanda, just as this body has in divers ways been defined, explained, set
forth by the Exalted One, as being without the self,-- is it possible in the same way to describe
the consciousness, to show it, make it plain, set it forth, make it clear, analyze and expound it
as being also without the self?�
�Just as this body has in divers ways been defined, explained, set forth by the Exalted One, as
being without the self, friend Ud�yin, so also is it possible to describe this consciousness, to
show it, make it plain, set it forth, make it clear, analyze and expound it as being also without
the self.
Owing to the eye and visible object arises seeing-consciousness, does it not, friend?�
�Yes, friend.�
�Well, friend, it is by this method that the Exalted One has explained, opened up, and shown that
this consciousness also is without the self. �
(The same is said with regard to the other doorways.).......................
................................................
Before someone can understand that this body is anatt� and that evenso this consciousness is
anatt�, the characteristics of n�ma and r�pa appearing at this moment must be �described, showed,
made plain, set forth, made clear, analysed and expounded�, as we read in the Sutta.
Characteristics of n�ma and r�pa appear at this moment, while we see, hear, smell, taste,
experience tangible object or think. 
It is not easy to be able to penetrate the meaning of anatt�, to understand the true nature of all
realities, to realize them as anatt�. If �nanda had not been a sot�panna, he would not have known
thoroughly the realities which are n�ma and r�pa. Only pa��� of that degree can eradicate wrong
view which takes n�ma and r�pa for self, being or person. If �nanda had not been a sot�panna he
could not have said to Ud�yin that it is also possible to describe consciousness, to show it, make
it plain, set it forth, make it clear, analyze it and expound it as being anatt�. Therefore, the
characteristics of n�ma and r�pa are manifest to the degree that pa��� has realized the true
nature of dhammas. At this moment realities arise and then fall away very rapidly. If a person has
not realized the true nature of realities, they do not appear to him as they are, even if he says
that, while there is seeing or hearing, n�ma is the element which experiences an object. Whereas,
when realities have appeared to him as they are, it is evident that he clearly knows their true
characteristics. 
�nanda had no doubt about the characteristics of n�ma and r�pa, no matter through which doorway
they appeared. If someone at the present time thinks that he should only develop mindfulness of
one of the four Applications of Mindfulness, such as mindfulness of the body, or that he should
only know one type of n�ma or r�pa, could he know the true characteristics of n�ma and r�pa? If he
would understand the truth of realities, why does he not know, while he is seeing, the n�ma which
experiences an object through the eyes, as the element which sees? Why does he not know, while he
is hearing, the n�ma which experiences an object through the ears, the element which hears? Why
does he not realize, while thinking, that it is only n�ma which knows conceptions or words? If he
would really understand what n�ma is, he would be able to understand the true nature of the
element which experiences an object...............................
..............................................
When �nanda asked Ud�yin whether seeing-consciousness arises owing to the eye and visible object,
Ud�yin had no doubt about eyesense and the r�pa appearing through the eyes, while seeing at that
moment. We read further on in the Sutta that �nanda said:

�Well, if the condition, if the cause of the arising of seeing-consciousness should altogether, in
every way, utterly come to cease without remainder, would any seeing-consciousness be evident?� 
�Surely not, friend.�
�Well, it is by this method that the Exalted One has explained, opened up, and shown that this
consciousness also is without the self.�

If one really understands that while there is hearing, there is no seeing, one can know the
characteristics of realities as they are. When there is thinking about different matters there is
no seeing, no hearing. There is only the n�ma which thinks at such a moment about different
subjects. In this way the characteristics of realities can be understood as they are. 
As �nanda said to Ud�yin, seeing arises dependent on eyesense and visible object which appears
through the eyes, but, when eyesense and visible object which are impermanent have completely
fallen away, how could seeing arise? Seeing must fall away. 
...................................
Pa��� should understand directly the characteristics of realities. It is impossible to enter the
gateway to nibb�na if the characteristic of n�ma is not known, and if only the postures of
sitting, lying down, standing or walking are known. If someone knows which posture he has assumed,
he has only remembrance or perception of the r�pas which arise together in different compositions
and constitute a �whole� of a posture. He does not realize the characteristics of n�ma and r�pa,
one at a time, as they arise and appear naturally, just as they are, through the different
doorways and then fall away. 
As we read in the Sutta, �nanda said to Ud�yin with reference to seeing-consciousness, that the
Buddha had explained that this is also without the self. �nanda said to Ud�yin: 
�Owing to the eye and visible object arises seeing-consciousness, does it not, friend?�
�Yes, friend.�
�Well, friend, it is by this method that the Exalted One has explained, opened up, and shown that
this consciousness also is without the self. �

He repeated the same about the other sense-cognitions and the consciousness which experiences
objects through the mind-door. ............................
.......................................................... 
We read further on in the Sutta which was quoted above, about a simile �nanda used. He said to
Ud�yin:

Suppose, friend, that a man should roam about in need of heart of wood, searching for heart of
wood, looking for heart of wood, and, taking a sharp axe, should enter a forest. There he sees a
mighty plaintain-trunk, straight up, new-grown, of towering height. He cuts it down at the root.
Having cut it down at the root, he chops it off at the top. Having done so he peels off the outer
skin. But he would find no pith inside, much less would he find heart of wood.
Even so, friend, a monk beholds no trace of the self nor of what pertains to the self in the
sixfold sense-sphere. So beholding, he is not attached to anything in the world. Unattached he is
not troubled. Untroubled, he is of himself utterly set free. So that he realizes, �Destroyed is
rebirth. Lived is the righteous life. Done is the task. For life in these conditions there is no
hereafter.� � 

We just read that �nanda said that a man in search for heart of wood enters a forest and sees a
mighty plaintain-trunk, straight up, new-grown, of towering height. So long as it is a
plaintain-trunk it still has the appearance of a �whole�. Then we read, �Having cut it down at the
root, he chops it off as the top. Having done so, he peels off the outer skin.� We should
eliminate clinging to what we are used to taking for a �whole�, for a �thing�, for self. 
We then read, �But he would find no pith inside, much less would he find heart of wood�. Thus he
becomes detached from the idea of plaintain-trunk. It is the same as in the case of a cow which is
still not cut up by a cattle butcher, as we read in the �Papa�cas�d�n�, the Commentary to the
�Satipa��h�nasutta�. If the cattle butcher does not skin it and cut it up in different parts he is
bound to see it as a cow, he does not see it as different elements. So long as r�pas are still
seen as joined together, one perceives them as a �whole�, or as a whole posture such as the
�sitting r�pa�. People are bound to consider realities as a thing, a self, a being or person who
is there. Only if someone knows n�ma and r�pa as they are he does not take them for beings or
people anymore. It is just as after peeling off the skin of the plaintain, any pith in it is not
to be found, much less heart of wood. As we have read, �nanda said: �Even so, friend, a monk
beholds no trace of self nor what pertains to the self in the sixfold sense-sphere�.
..............................
I...........................................
If different types of realities are known, one characteristic at a time, as n�ma and r�pa, the
wrong view which takes realities for self is eliminated. One will let go of the idea of realities
as a �whole� or a posture. Then it can be understood what it means to have inward peace, because
citta does not become involved in outward matters, such as self, people or beings. There is no
longer the world one used to cling to, the world outside, which is full of people and different
things. There is no longer what one used to take for a particular person, for a thing, for self,
all permanent and lasting. Whenever sati arises pa��� can at that moment understand realities
clearly, and then there is inward peace, because there are no people, beings or things. Whereas,
when there are many people, many conceptions in one�s life, there is no peace. If someone sees a
person he is acquainted with or he has a particular relation with, he thinks, as soon as he has
seen him even for a moment, a long �story� about him. If he sees a person he does not know, the
�story� is short; he thinks only for a little while about him and then the �story� is over. He
does not continue to think about him. 
.......................................
.............................................
<end quote>

I've probably quoted too much for some, but for others, do read the whole chapter. Best wishes for
your studies and practice of being aware of realities and removing those 'outer skins'!! (pls let
me know if these sutta references don't make the grade in terms of the questions being asked and
I'll try again ;-))

Sarah




 
5361 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 3:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Kusala etc.-Eric, nibbana

 
  Dear Erik,

--- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah Procter Abbott 

> 
> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Jeez, spoiling for a fight, eh? (I love it :)
> 
> wrote:
> > Dear Erik,
> > 
> > Thanks for your long reply to my last post. I may pick up some 
> points later, but we're a little
> > far apart when it comes to the ease of jhanas and the like, so I 
> think tthat debate will go on for
> > sometime! 
> 
> Re: "Ease of jhanas." I NEVER said the jhanas were easy. I said 
> they're doable.............., 

o.k., o.k., o.k......I twisted your words!! ;-)).. and humbly retreat on this (for now!!)
Thanks for sharing your experiences which I may return to later...

         ***********
> > 'Nibbana is a single undifferentiated ultimate reality.  It is 
> exclusively supramundane, and has
> > one intrinsic nature (sabhava), which is that of being the 
> unconditioned deathless element totally
> > transcendant to the conditioned world.' (AS.V1,31) 
> >           **********
> > In other words, even though it is unconditioned, it has its nature 
> that can be realized. I'm not
> > sure that I would call the realizing 'marking', but either way, it 
> remains the citta that realizes
> > or marks and is conditioned. Being realized does not make the 
> unconditioned reality conditioned. 
> 
> You say the "nature" of nibbana can be realized, and then go on to 
> quote things that say nibbana lacks any marks pertaining to sankhara 
> dhammas, is unconditioned, etc. I do not disagree with this at all, 
> which is why I raise the question of how what is conditioned can 
> cognize the unconditioned.
> 
> To have a citta that can "cognize" nibbana, if this is true, is an 
> oxymoron. How can a citta have the six cetasikas of phassa, vedana, 
> etc., against something lacking marks? How can one have phassa 
> without creating a division between subject and object? Given nibbana 
> is void of subject and object (the implication of it being 
> unconditioned) as well as devoid of all that pertains to self, to 
> make nibbaba an object through even phassa is to reify it and then, 
> there is no nibbana anymore!
> 
> It would be the same as saying that you could "cognize" the absence 
> of a big purple elephant in the room. Is is possible to directly 
> cognize an absence? Can phassa arise in the instance of absence in 
> the case of this elephant?

No, it's not the same as saying you could cognze an absence or a big purple elephant. Nibbana,
even though it's unconditioned, is a reality with its own 'sabhava' even if it lacks many/most the
characteristics of other realities. Because we often use negative terms to describe it (the
un-this and un-that) it's very easy to be left with the idea that there is nothing to be realized.
Although I'm not an expert on nibbana (!!), this isn't true according to my studies. Also, of
course, all realities are not self and yet phassa 'contacts' them..this doesn't make them
non-esistent.

> > I think it was Kom who pointed out earlier that cittas also 
> experience concepts which are also not
> > conditioned realities and never become conditioned realities. 
> 
> All pannati are by definition "deceptive realities" in the category 
> of samutti sacca. So perhaps we are working with different 
> definitions. I am using the division of paramattha vs. samutti sacca 
> here. All pannati are samutti sacca, hence, deceptive. How can 
> samutti sacca possibly conceive of paramattha sacca, is another way I 
> might rephrase he question of how citta can cognize nibbana.

No, I agree, samutti sacca (conventional truths) cannot cognize nibbana, but the citta accompanied
by the very highly developed factors of the 8fold path can. There are no samutti sacca invloved. 
(Whether all pannati (concepts) are samutti sacca is another debate, starting with the big piurple
elephant!!)
> 
 >           **********
> > 'Nibbana is called the void (sunnata) because it is devoid of 
> greed, hatred, and delusion, and
> > because it is devoid of all that is conditioned.
> 
> Void of all that is conditioned. And citta is conditioned, as is 
> everything not nibbana. So again, how can the conditioned take the 
> unconditioned as an object without reifying it right then & there? 
> Lokuttara panna arises when the subtlest elaborations are nuked in 
> meditation. If there are elaborations, no nibbana. When these 
> elaborations that create distinctions among the ten-thousand things 
> goes, what is left? Nibbana. Therefore, how can Nibbana, not being 
> a "thing" at all, but rather a mere LABEL for the absence of 
> independent existence, be "cognized" at all?

By suggesting nibbana is a mere LABEL for something, makes it sound like a concept. The reason
nibbana can be realized is because it is a reality and not a label even though it's nature is not
conditioned. Perhaps others can find some suttas talking about its 'postive' qualities so that it
doesn't sound just like a non-this and that!
> 
> Awaiting your reply!

Hope I haven't disappointed and perhaps Rob or kom or Nina can add more details if I have  
(or I'll happily try again!!). Look forward to your reply too, Erik!!

Best wishes,
Sarah


 
5362 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Tori,

Good to see you 'out' in the open...I know that anything you write is always useful;-))

--- Tori Korshak  wrote: > 
. 
> For myself, I am still feeling my way in terms of sharing with a group of 
> strangers (as opposed to just a few), 

Hope we don't still seem like strangers!! (Actually, Herman, many of that 120 may have chosen the
web only option, like my nephew, and just look in very ocasionally if at all! So, Tori, think of
us as an extended dhamma family...)

although this doesn't always seem 
> quite right as I take advantage of their sharing. I feel I have so much to 
> learn, but I will try to contribute more. It is sometimes a bit daunting to 
> contribute because of the high level of knowledge of some members.

Just as and when you feel inclined.... I don't think anyone here, not even Nina, would think they
have a high level of knowledge. As she says, its good to just think of ourselves as beginners on
this long path...;-)

What I have learnt from this list is that the accumulations of members interested in the dhamma
are so very different in terms of how they find it helpful to study and practice. For some, they
find it really helpful to study a lot of abhidhamma details in order to get a 'feel ' of anatta.
For others, just a few details, well-considered, are more useful. When we compare, it's usually
that mana (pride) again, so it's helpful as Jaran so wisely pointed out to know that it's the
awareness of the realities NOW that counts, no matter in what way we study or what language we
find helpful.
> 
> Hope to hear from you again.

And from you in your kind and honest way. Thanks, Tori,

metta,
Sarah

p.s You kindly showed concern and gave me helpful reminders when my close friend just went in for
surgery. She's doing fine and will be back in Hong Kong soon;-))))



 
5363 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and Jaran

 
  Hi Jaran,

A big thanks to Herman and Tori for encouraging YOU to un-lurk!!

--- jaran wrote:
> 
> Why are other members not contributing? For me, the reasons range 
> from laziness to limited knowledge of dhamma, with poor English in 
> between. Sometimes many posts concern subjects that are beyond my 
> interest and often beyond my understanding.

See, everyone has their excuses!!
> 
> 
> A note about the purpose of 'dhamma study': the Buddha's teachings 
> are not for memorizing or understanding just their theoretical 
> stories, but for the listeners to understand the dhammas (realities) 
> as they are [appearing right now]. So, after reading the posts, don't 
> leave them at the dsg. Examine the things you read about [in dsg] in 
> daily life, as pointed out in Nina's latest post. That's where the 
> real study is.
> 
> It is always good to question every thing, but there are a lot that 
> don't help us understand the realities *right now*. It takes right 
> understanding to ask the right questions to make the right 
> understanding grow further. What are the right understanding and 
> questions? These are what you are going to learn about here.

Excellent points.... and yes, it's interesting how our questions change over time.....very sharp
comments, Jaran..look f/w to more.

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s Oh wrote and told me you're travelling a lot...does that mean you're not able to read the
posts together so much? She also said you'd be in Bkk soon, I think...look f/w to some more notes
from you perhaps!?!?




 
5364 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Answer

 
  Dan

--- Dan wrote: 
> At the moments of stealing, there are the volition, decision, and 
> action to steal. The stealing is done because of present action, not 
> past action. This is discussed in the excerpt from Katta-vatthu (and 
> comentary) that I posted under the tab "From Abhidhamma."

I agree with your first sentence, except that I do not see the need to include
'decision' here since volition (intention) plus the necessary action is surely
sufficient.

The stealing is present action (kamma), which will bring an unpleasant result
(vipaka) in the future.  It is done in part because of tendencies accumulated on
previous occasions of similar action.

Do you see any difference between this position and the Katha-vatthu cited in your
earlier post?

Jon


 
5365 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] why lurkers lurk and don't post

 
  Nice one Antony!  I agree about hermans nice post too.
robert
--- Antony wrote:
> I'm a bit of a lurker I guess. there's usually so much to read
> here 
> and think about that there's no time for posting.
> 
> I think some people lack the confidence to post for their own 
> personal reasons. 
> 
> I don't mean to be a lurker really but it somehow seems a bit
> rude to 
> push in on a thread and have your say.
> 
> then there's the morbid fear of starting your own thread and
> hoping 
> someone feels it's worthy enough to respond.
> 
> I guess you could do a whole psychological profile of this
> situation. 
> I think it is very difficult to enculture a list and get
> enough 
> people who are seriously intersted enough to help things
> along. I 
> think that situation does exist here. Of course the road has
> been 
> rocky and the good posters have left with the bad but there is
> a good 
> environment here I think even the hardcore lurkers would agree
> with 
> that. I would think many people lurk because that's what they
> do.
> 
> 'Don't look this gift horse (of a list) in the mouth' as they
> say. I 
> think it means if someone gives you a horse for nothing don't
> look 
> for problems with it. Not that some of you haven't put a lot
> of work 
> into making this list worthwhile but if you look at some of
> the other 
> lists for comparison this is a good one. You have few people
> who post 
> reams of quoted material for no particular reason (no-one at
> the 
> moment I think) you have little agressive behaviour, not for a
> while 
> anyway (I've been keeping quiet see) and you have few, if any,
> 
> advertising posters swimming by.
> 
> How to encourage more posters? Perhaps you could encourage
> non-
> posters to choose a subject either in person or off-line. Can
> you see 
> who lurks but doesn't post in the administrative part of the
> list you 
> could mail them and say "hey we saw you drop by etc. In one of
> the 
> yahoo clubs that I had participated in some time back they
> used to 
> send an email encouraging participation to all members.
> Perhaps you 
> could have a subject of the week for open posting like: What
> the hell 
> is KUSULA anyway (only an example)
> 
> If you are a lurker whey not consider posting something only
> if it is 
> to express your appreciation of something you read here. I've
> done 
> that kind of thing before. Hey that's an interesting
> conversation 
> you're having! Here's an example: "Hey Herman, I like what
> you've 
> been asking in the ease and stuff thread, My self is so
> pervasive and 
> ubiquitous that I really start to think I'm me sometimes. I
> wouldn't 
> mind seeing some textual references on that either."
> 
> 
> Antony Brennan
> 


 
5366 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] anatta, ease and stuff

 
  Dear Group,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Hi Antony, Howard, Herman, Jon, CL and
all the others crying out for suttas on this topic:

Just a quick apology.....I had no idea until I just printed it out that this post was SO long and
that I had quoted so much from Nina's translation of SURVEY of P.D. Personally I found the padding
around the sutta so good that I was having trouble trimming sufficiently, but really thought it
was only a page or two ;-(.....!

(Anthony, I should have read your post more carefully first about the 'reams of quoted material'!!
...and thanks for all your comments and encouragement to lurkers..I wouldn't call you a lurker
btw)

Sarah




 
5367 From: Tori Korshak   
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] why lurkers lurk and don't post

 
  Antony,

Thanks for your considered and humourous approach-rare enough.

Metta from one lurker to another,
Victoria

At 04:06 AM 5/28/01 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm a bit of a lurker I guess. there's usually so much to read here
>and think about that there's no time for posting.
>
>I think some people lack the confidence to post for their own
>personal reasons.
>
>I don't mean to be a lurker really but it somehow seems a bit rude to
>push in on a thread and have your say.
>
>then there's the morbid fear of starting your own thread and hoping
>someone feels it's worthy enough to respond.
>
>I guess you could do a whole psychological profile of this situation.
>I think it is very difficult to enculture a list and get enough
>people who are seriously intersted enough to help things along. I
>think that situation does exist here. Of course the road has been
>rocky and the good posters have left with the bad but there is a good
>environment here I think even the hardcore lurkers would agree with
>that. I would think many people lurk because that's what they do.
>
>'Don't look this gift horse (of a list) in the mouth' as they say. I
>think it means if someone gives you a horse for nothing don't look
>for problems with it. Not that some of you haven't put a lot of work
>into making this list worthwhile but if you look at some of the other
>lists for comparison this is a good one. You have few people who post
>reams of quoted material for no particular reason (no-one at the
>moment I think) you have little agressive behaviour, not for a while
>anyway (I've been keeping quiet see) and you have few, if any,
>advertising posters swimming by.
>
>How to encourage more posters? Perhaps you could encourage non-
>posters to choose a subject either in person or off-line. Can you see
>who lurks but doesn't post in the administrative part of the list you
>could mail them and say "hey we saw you drop by etc. In one of the
>yahoo clubs that I had participated in some time back they used to
>send an email encouraging participation to all members. Perhaps you
>could have a subject of the week for open posting like: What the hell
>is KUSULA anyway (only an example)
>
>If you are a lurker whey not consider posting something only if it is
>to express your appreciation of something you read here. I've done
>that kind of thing before. Hey that's an interesting conversation
>you're having! Here's an example: "Hey Herman, I like what you've
>been asking in the ease and stuff thread, My self is so pervasive and
>ubiquitous that I really start to think I'm me sometimes. I wouldn't
>mind seeing some textual references on that either."
>
>
>Antony Brennan
>
>
>
>

 
5368 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 0:56am
Subject: Re: Answer

 
  Dan wrote:
> > At the moments of stealing, there are the volition, decision, and 
> > action to steal. The stealing is done because of present action, 
not 
> > past action. This is discussed in the excerpt from Katta-vatthu 
(and 
> > comentary) that I posted under the tab "From Abhidhamma."

Jon wrote:
> I agree with your first sentence, except that I do not see the need 
to include
> 'decision' here since volition (intention) plus the necessary action 
is surely
> sufficient.
> The stealing is present action (kamma), which will bring an 
unpleasant result
> (vipaka) in the future.  It is done in part because of tendencies 
accumulated on
> previous occasions of similar action.
> 
> Do you see any difference between this position and the Katha-vatthu 
cited in your
> earlier post?

Dan:
By decision, I am referring to adhimokkha, which is certainly involved 
in stealing (and any kusala or akusala cittas, excepting those 
accompanied by doubt). I explicitly included it because sometimes it 
is easy to overlook its importance.

Obviously, under equally conducive situations, some people are more 
likely to steal a bike than other people. Why is that? It's not 
because they have stole before or done similar action. It more because 
ottapa and hiri do not arise with the strength to counteract the lobha 
(or dosa). In someone who steals frequently, ottapa and hiri do tend 
to be weak and infrequent, while lobha (or dosa) tend to be strong. 
But stealing is not a result of previous action; it is kamma, active, 
present. It is accompanied by adhimokkha, cetana, ahiri, and anottapa. 
It is these, and not any past action that give rise to the stealing.

 
5369 From: jaran 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 9:36am
Subject: Re: intro and Jaran

 
  Hello from Chicago Sarah:

Good to hear from you Sarah! 

Yes I am travelling way too much. And yes, I just came back from a 
one-week business-trip in BKK. I met with TA Sujin, Amara, K. Sukhin 
(spelling?), and all others. I spent two weekends at the fundation. I 
got the priority to ask the all the questions I wanted. :-) (All of 
which have been shared with Kom and P' O yesterday in our BayArea 
dsg.)

I'd love to share with you right now, but I am being kicked out for 
this internet cafe. One intesting thing I notice, however, is that
the 
questions I asked are quite similar to those we (mostly you and Jon) 
asked at the Cambodia trip.

They are throwing me out! I gotta go.

Later,
jaran

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Hi Jaran,
> 
> Best wishes,
> Sarah
> 
> p.s Oh wrote and told me you're travelling a lot...does that mean 
you're not able to read the
> posts together so much? She also said you'd be in Bkk soon, I 
think...look f/w to some more notes
> from you perhaps!?!?

 
 
5370 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 6:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 434

 
  Dear Loke,

You wrote:

<< on of the other reason is being that I wish to be able to put forward the 
Buddhist idea when confronted by Christians on the subject of debates in 
various aspect of the religions >>

<....And also I have another question.... How do we explain
rebirth (the idea) to a Christian ? Some of my friends agrees that Buddhism
is good and true... except for one lie which is rebirth ? How do I get
around this ?>>

In my experience debate hasn't been too useful in changing people's minds.  I 
think the best you can accomplish is if you can correct any MISINFORMATION 
they may have about Buddhism.  But if you start picking apart their religion, 
they can get very defensive. I know for myself, one of the things that 
attracted me to the Dhamma was the fact that is not (at least, in my 
experience) an aggressively missionary religion.

I think if we develop some genuine understanding of Dhamma, and it begins to 
affect the way we live, then eventually those who are ready will begin asking 
us about the Dhamma.  In the beginning they may not be ready to accept all 
facets of Dhamma, such as rebirth.  But by beginning with some basic 
principles of Dhamma and then seeing the truth of them, little by little the 
may inquire more deeply.

Pau Bail

 
5371 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 10:56am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 434

 
  Dear Pau Bail,

		Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly
however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how
then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians
don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the
doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process
till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and
workings.... ?

rgds,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Paul Bail [SMTP:Paul Bail]
> Sent:	Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:36 AM
> Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 434
> 
> Dear Loke,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> << on of the other reason is being that I wish to be able to put forward
> the 
> Buddhist idea when confronted by Christians on the subject of debates in 
> various aspect of the religions >>
> 
> <....And also I have another question.... How do we explain
> rebirth (the idea) to a Christian ? Some of my friends agrees that
> Buddhism
> is good and true... except for one lie which is rebirth ? How do I get
> around this ?>>
> 
> In my experience debate hasn't been too useful in changing people's minds.
> I 
> think the best you can accomplish is if you can correct any MISINFORMATION
> 
> they may have about Buddhism.  But if you start picking apart their
> religion, 
> they can get very defensive. I know for myself, one of the things that 
> attracted me to the Dhamma was the fact that is not (at least, in my 
> experience) an aggressively missionary religion.
> 
> I think if we develop some genuine understanding of Dhamma, and it begins
> to 
> affect the way we live, then eventually those who are ready will begin
> asking 
> us about the Dhamma.  In the beginning they may not be ready to accept all
> 
> facets of Dhamma, such as rebirth.  But by beginning with some basic 
> principles of Dhamma and then seeing the truth of them, little by little
> the 
> may inquire more deeply.
> 
> Pau Bail
> 
>  
> 
>

 
5372 From: Num 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 9:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana

 
  Hi Sarah,

This will be a short mail.

I can see the difference between phassa and vinnana pretty clearly, thinking 
level.

Regarding ekaggata and manasikra, I still cannot grasp the difference that 
clear.  Like dosa and dommanassa, each pair of those cetasika always arise 
together amd share some similarities.   I agree with Nina's very insightful 
response to my question that awareness and thinking or calling the name of 
the reality is a totally different thing.   But to me, personally, if I 
cannot call what I feel, I think I do not really know what I am feeling or 
thinking about.   Long way to go.   

I ask myself at time, should I ask this kind of question.  I do ask myself a 
whole lot more of questions!!!!   Listening, reading, thinking and 
understanding is totally different reality.   There are couple more pairs of 
cetasika, that I still have a doubt.

Thank you and always appreciate your response.

Num

 
5373 From: Erik 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 7:00pm
Subject: Re: Questions: Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana

 
  --- Num wrote:
> Hi Sarah,
> 
> This will be a short mail.
> 
> I can see the difference between phassa and vinnana pretty clearly, 
thinking 
> level.
> 
> Regarding ekaggata and manasikra, I still cannot grasp the 
difference that 
> clear.  Like dosa and dommanassa, each pair of those cetasika 
always arise 
> together amd share some similarities.   I agree with Nina's very 
insightful 
> response to my question that awareness and thinking or calling the 
name of 
> the reality is a totally different thing.   But to me, personally, 
if I 
> cannot call what I feel, I think I do not really know what I am 
feeling or 
> thinking about.   Long way to go.   

This may degenerate into a case of the blind leading the blind here, 
because you've clearly studied this way more than I have and I wonder 
what I might be missing. That said, that way I've seen the two is 
that ekaggata merely denotes the fact that all cittas remain focused 
on an object. Nothing more.

Manasikara, on the other hand, seems to me the force that marshals 
attention to an object and keeps it there. Manasikara in this case 
determines WHAT aramanna ekagatta is one-pointedly fixed on.

Manasikara is also associated with the function of advertence, and I 
assume from this definition that manasikara is the force behind the 
two dvaravajjana cittas that allows them to perform their function of 
adverting. But please someone correct me if I am wrong here.

I have to ask now, what is the difference between manasikara and the 
group of vitakka & vicara & adhimokkha? Vitakka performs the function 
of applying attention toward an object. Then vicara follows up with 
sustained pressure of attention to the object. Last, adhimokkha keeps 
attention stuck in the object. Gee, that sounds just like manasikara, 
except that perhaps manasikara also includes something that prompts 
the citta to advert. So manasikara seems like another way of 
describing the sequence of sanna(?), vitakka, vicara, and adhimokkha.
At any rate, there appears overlap in function between manasikara and 
the others cetasikas.

 
5374 From: Joyce Short   
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 434

 
  > Dear Loke,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> << on of the other reason is being that I wish to be able to put forward the
> Buddhist idea when confronted by Christians on the subject of debates in
> various aspect of the religions >>
>
> <....And also I have another question.... How do we explain
> rebirth (the idea) to a Christian ?

Same way as to Buddhist friends.  Good to understand it oneself first.
Explain anatta to them


>Some of my friends agrees that Buddhism
> is good and true... except for one lie which is rebirth ? How do I get
> around this ?>>

rebirth=Paticcasamuppada

"Throught the process of Becoming is conditioned Rebirth.

"The problem 'whether man has free will' does not exist for the Buddhist,
since he knows that, apart from these ever changing mental and physical
phenomena, no such entity as 'me' can ever be found, and that 'man' is
merely a name not relating to any reality.  And the question, 'whether will
is free', must be rejected for the reason that 'will' or volition, is a
mental phenomenon flashing forth only for a moment, and that, as such, it
had no existence in the former moment.  For of a thing that is not, or is
not yet, one cannot not properly speaking, ask whether it is free or unfree.
The only admissible question would be whether the arising of 'Will' is
independent of conditions, or whether it be conditioned.  But the same
question would apply to all mental phenomena, as well as to all physical
phenomena, in other words: to everything, and every occurrence whatsoever.
And the answer would be -whether Will arises, or whether Feeling arises, or
whatever mental or physical phenomenon arises, the arising of anything
whatsoever is depedend on conditions, and wihout conditions nothing can ever
arise or enter into existence."  from Nyanatiloka

Metta,

Joyce

 
5375 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 6:03pm
Subject: Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _

 
  Dear Loke,

If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing of 
Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early 
Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church Fathers" 
believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates.  
Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was 
later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered one 
of the Church fathers.  Also the Hassidic Jews believe in 
reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of Jesus's 
period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know.  In India, 
where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established belief.  
However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that 
because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life 
process.  So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment 
process to your friends.

From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of 
no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life.  Unless 
everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently.  No 
rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment.  This 
is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God.  Of course, 
they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point.

I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they 
are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you a 
hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things.  If 
they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion 
onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality, etc.)? 
If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful.

Paul Bail

   From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
Subject: RE: Digest Number 434

Dear Pau Bail,

        Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly
however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how
then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians
don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the
doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process
till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and
workings.... ?

rgds,
Loke CL

 
5376 From: North Jersey Mindfulness Community   
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 11:00pm
Subject: lurking, posting

 
  > --- Antony wrote:
> I'm a bit of a lurker I guess. there's usually so much to read
> here and think about that there's no time for posting.

Hi all --
I am a consummate lurker, which is not that odd until you realize
that I have been moderating professional and personal e-lists 
for almost a decade!

I don't have much to say for a number of reasons.  First, much of
what goes on the Dhamma Study Group is new to me, and I really
don't have a lot to add.  I am not much for psychology and don't know
the Abidhamma.  My study has all been in the Suttas, and of course
in the practicalities of meditation.  So I don't post on this list because
I've not much to add 
" -- Don't say anything that doesn't improve on Silence -- "

In other lists I might be tempted to write in, but am more curious about
what others have to say.  I already know what *I* think, after all!  Sometimes
I think that posters are just trying to prove they know something when they
post.  Other times, of course, people really *do* know something and are
doing the rest of the list a favor by sharing what they know.  Me, I mostly
just like to watch --

In some cases -- not on this list, mind you -- I find people really burn me up.
There is a guy over on D-L right now who is driving me up a tree.  Or *was*
driving me up a tree -- he still would be if I still read him.  When I see a post
from that gentleman I just more on -- I get hundreds, literally hundreds, of emails
a day and just don't need to waste my time on people I know are going to make
me angry.  In most cases these people are not approachable anyway;  I am not
capable of convincing them of my view any more than they are of convincing me
of theirs -- so why bother?

An analogous situation is when people talk-talk-talk on retreat, when we are
supposed to be observing noble silence.  I could ask them to shut up, but my
reaction is to leave them alone and keep my own mouth shut.   I'm not saying
this is the "right" way to act on either retreat or an e-list, just saying that's the
way I am --

Metta --
Robert
North Jersey Mindfulness Community
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=091063014098146233169057186176147222018058196234234130188227054
http://satipatthana.org/

 
5377 From: selamat   
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 11:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _

 
  Dear Paul et. al.

If you or someone need, we would deliver you personally (by direct email
address) an e-file "Beyond Belief" by bhante A.L. De Silva. He wrote the
book for the Buddhists whose saddha might be trembled by evangelist. It also
describe some Basic Important Buddhist concepts. Food for thought for
Christians and Buddhists who like selling the concept of "God" which we have
already realized that There is no God in the ultimate reality; although
"some/many Buddhists" have the concept.

with metta,
dhamma study group bogor


----- Original Message -----
From: <Paul Bail>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number
434 _


> Dear Loke,
>
> If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing
of
> Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early
> Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church
Fathers"
> believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates.
> Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was
> later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered
one
> of the Church fathers.  Also the Hassidic Jews believe in
> reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of
Jesus's
> period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know.  In
India,
> where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established
belief.
> However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that
> because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life
> process.  So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment
> process to your friends.
>
> From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of
> no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life.  Unless
> everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently.
No
> rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment.
This
> is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God.  Of course,
> they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point.
>
> I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they
> are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you
a
> hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things.
If
> they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion
> onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality,
etc.)?
> If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful.
>
> Paul Bail
>
>    From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> Subject: RE: Digest Number 434
>
> Dear Pau Bail,
>
>         Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly
> however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how
> then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians
> don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the
> doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process
> till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and
> workings.... ?
>
> rgds,
> Loke CL
>
>
>
>
>

 
5378 From: Num 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 7:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 431. Dosa and unpleasant feeling

 
  Hi Nina,

Greatly appreciate your response.  Thanks for pointing out many subtle and 
hidden conditions.   

<<Thinking is also conditioned, if we had not studied aversion, dosa,
unpleasant feeling, and we had not heard that these namas condition rupa, we
would not be able to think of them now. We should not mind that thinking
arises, it is a reality of daily life, it is dhamma, apppearing now,
non-self. We can begin to investigate thinking when it appears, a reality
which knows something, otherwise it is <my thinking>.>>

I totally agree with above.   May be it's my accumulation, I like to think 
critically  back and forth, examine, cross-examine, look from multiple 
different angles to the thing or concept that at time I think I understand 
pretty well.   Dhamma is not easy, reading and listening to dhamma is not 
that hard but it needed a lot of conditions and accumulation to really see 
and understand Dhamma. Thanks for pointing this out.


<<if there is no desire to select particular
realities such as dosa or unpleasant feeling, but awareness of any reality
of the present moment, also thinking, realities can very, very gradually be
known as they are. But not right away. If we try to know the difference
between different realities, we shall not know them, only right
understanding, pa~n~naa, can know this, not we.>>

I like this part of your mail a lot.  It's very easy to be confused and see 
at time that understanding is anatta.  I am used to hard working and 
studying.  The idea of "I" can feed in at every moment.  But I think I 
somewhat know what you tried to say.   I heard someone said, "Doing by not 
working," at first I think that is crazy, but it's actually a truth, simple, 
elegant and that the way it is. 

<<Acharn also said that the perfection of energy is indispensable in the
elimination of unwholesomeness: <Even though one knows what is good but one
does not endeavour to pursue it, one can never succeed.>
She often said that we should be brave and cheerful in investigating all
kinds of realities, no matter they are pleasant or unpleasant, wholesome or
unwholesome. She also used the word hero, one has to be heroic. Why? Because
it is a long time development, as Robert also pointed out, it takes endless
lives and the knife handle one holds each day wears away so slowly that one
does not see that it wears away. So it is with ignorance and other
defilements, progress may hardly be noticable.

Again, "energy (viriya)" is not "mine". I usually do not want to be a hero. I 
think I might have to change my mind from what you just said :)  I usually 
not worry about how long it will take. I think when conditions are ripe, the 
fruit will happen.  Short or long is just a thought. Reality is here and now, 
as you mentioned that "  <<Acharn Sujin said that dhammas arise and fall away 
too rapidly for anyone to
do anything>> "

I think I am going to get your book, Cetasika.  Sarah mentioned that some 
parts in Visuddhimagga have detail regarding cetasika.  I am way far behind 
my schedule reading this book. May be I will ask you some more questions when 
I read to that section.

Appreciate,

Num








 
5379 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 1:01am
Subject: what is the abhidhamma /

 
  Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic
question: what is the Abhidhamma.
She wrote: 
<If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & Abhidhamma
<books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy subject.What's
<Abhidhamma mostly about?

Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here.

Dear Dhamma friend,

The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you
see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be like
or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity.
These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. The
Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the
conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect.
Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be
void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these
terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own
inclination to what extent you want to study them.
Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it,
because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different
times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when there
is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise
at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in
everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting.
The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing
experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing
experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it is
dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it
does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma.
There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental
phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience
anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical
phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to
verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We tend
to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because we
have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. We
have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today.
But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of
them. It can help us in daily life.
You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like
that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you not
expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments
of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas
arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they
unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying
Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta
arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s efforts who
cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma
teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should
we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of
the Abhidhamma. 

Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama.
These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no
matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is
real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. Hardness
which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table
or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of
our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is
only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma
uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> on Robert�s
Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually
you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are
realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more interesting.
I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn Sujin�s Survey
of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana.
If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
complicated than you thought at first.

With metta, Nina. 

P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study of
the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but
now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like Jaran's
remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo
Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
 I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some people may
believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question
relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much
or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and
this is for all of us.

 
5380 From: Tori Korshak   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 2:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /

 
  Dear Nina,

Thank you for your encouragement and elaboration. I am very relieved to 
hear that memorisation is not necessary! Robert has mentioned how  kusala 
moments frequently can be rapidly alternating with lobha, so that we may in 
fact be fooling ourselves when we think we experience alobha. This seems a 
very subtle form of self-deception. Sometimes it's difficult to know what 
we don't know (unless someone points it out to us).

Metta,
Victoria


At 07:01 PM 5/29/01 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic
>question: what is the Abhidhamma.
>She wrote:
><If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & Abhidhamma
><books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy subject.What's
><Abhidhamma mostly about?
>
>Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here.
>
>Dear Dhamma friend,
>
>The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you
>see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be like
>or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity.
>These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. The
>Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the
>conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect.
>Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be
>void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these
>terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own
>inclination to what extent you want to study them.
>Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it,
>because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different
>times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when there
>is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise
>at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in
>everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting.
>The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
>Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing
>experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing
>experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it is
>dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it
>does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma.
>There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental
>phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience
>anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical
>phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
>You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to
>verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We tend
>to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because we
>have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. We
>have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today.
>But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of
>them. It can help us in daily life.
>You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like
>that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you not
>expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments
>of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas
>arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they
>unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying
>Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
>You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta
>arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s efforts who
>cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma
>teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should
>we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of
>the Abhidhamma.
>
>Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama.
>These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no
>matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is
>real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. Hardness
>which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table
>or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of
>our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is
>only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma
>uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> on Robert�s
>Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
>You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually
>you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are
>realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more interesting.
>I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn Sujin�s Survey
>of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana.
>If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
>complicated than you thought at first.
>
>With metta, Nina.
>
>P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study of
>the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but
>now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like Jaran's
>remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo
>Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
>  I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some people may
>believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question
>relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much
>or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and
>this is for all of us.
>

 
5381 From: Dan 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 7:26am
Subject: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost despairing 
note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. At 
the time, I thought each of his twelve points was a sharp observation 
about the tone of some familiar, contemporary Abhidhamma writers' 
(CAW) comments and views. He has since stopped posting to the list. I 
don't know exactly what his comments were about, but I do know they 
are very similar to the thoughts I have when reading CAW's and very 
different from the uplifting, encouraging thoughts I have from 
reading Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma). Since our friend's 
famous post, several comments from CAW's have seemed to miss the mark 
about why someone would find their writing discouraging. From my 
memory, some of the comments have been things like: "Oh, no, Dhamma 
is uplifting, but it takes courage to face it." The comments seem to 
betray a confusion between "being discouraged" and "finding someone's 
writing discouraging", and between "a CAW's writing" and "Buddha's 
Dhamma." I never find the suttas or Abhidhamma discouraging, but I 
can't say the same for CAW's. What is the difference? I think April's 
despairing post from our friend outlined the points very clearly. I'd 
like to take his outline and expand on it with my own examples. 
Please note that my examples may well have nothing to do with what 
our friend was thinking when he wrote his post and only represent my 
understanding. 

But first, what exactly is a CAW? I'm going to leave the term 
undefined for now because the comments I will quote will be 
recognizable to most, and I do not want to prejudice those who don't 
recognize the comments.

Discouraging 1.1: "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood 
about the Dhamma is completely wrong." An early lesson in Dhamma is 
that sensual desire (kamacchanda), ill-will (byapada), sloth and 
torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca), 
and sceptical doubt (vicikiccha) are hindrances (nivarana) to 
spiritual development, both calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana). 
The suttas and Abhidhamma often refer to the nivarana as obstacles to 
overcome to attain jhana, and I don't think there would be a CAW in 
disagreement there. But they are also obstacles to insight, as is 
clear from both reason and practice. But is that clarity simply 
micchaditthi (wrong view)? 

Some CAW's hold this view: "The nivarana that must be overcome in 
order to attain jhana should not be regarded as the same nivarana 
that need to be overcome in order to attain enlightenment. The 
attainments/goals of the 2 kinds of development are quite different, 
and so the conditions for that development and the obstacles to it 
are also quite different.  The overcoming of the nivarana in the 
attainment of jhana is not necessarily a condition for their being 
overcome in the context of insight." Does this really say that the 
nivarana are not obstacles to insight? Another CAW chimes in: "The 
only hindrance [to satipatthana] is the last one, ignorance. The 
other hindrances are to the development of samatha only."

This certainly goes against my experience, understanding, and 
impression of my study and practice. How does it square with the 
Buddha's Dhamma? After reading, contemplation, reflection, the CAW's 
views do appear to be in contradiction. 

First, from Vissudhimagga (XXII, 57, Nyanamoli trans.): "The 
hindrances are the five, namely lust [ill-will, sloth and torpor, 
restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt], in the sense of 
obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from 
consciousness." This sure makes it sound like the nivarana are 
obstacles and hindrances to satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom 
because satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom require clear vision of 
reality and the hindrances block that clear vision.

Was Buddhagosa just overreaching here, putting his own corrupt view 
on the matter? I don't think so because everything else I've read of 
his is such a reliable reflection of Buddha's Dhamma that I can't 
help but think he's right here too. In any case, let's move on to the 
suttas for confirmation.

AN 5:51: [Referring to the five nivarana]: "There are five 
impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify 
insight�.Without having overcome these five, it is impossible for a 
monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to know his own 
true good, the good of others, and the bood of both; nor will he be 
capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive 
achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of 
sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and 
hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, then 
it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own 
true good�" This is pretty unambiguous: The familiar five nivarana 
are impediments and hindrances to strong insight.

In fact, Vibhanga appears to go even a step further: In the context 
of attaining jhana, Vibhanaga (508, U Thittila trans.) 
states: "Abandoning these five hindrances (that are) mental 
corruptions and attenuation of wisdom, he, aloof from sense 
pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in the first 
jhana�" As for the nivarana being the "attenuation of wisdom," 
Vibhanga continues (563): "'Attenuation of wisdom' means: Because of 
these five hindrances wisdom that has not arisen does not arise, also 
wisdom that has arisen ceases. Therefore this is called `attenuation 
of wisdom'." This seems to say that by that very attenuation of 
wisdom, the nivarana prevent the establishment of jhana. 

In this case, the CAW's statements that the nivarana are not 
obstacles to insight seem to be very much at odds with Buddha's 
Dhamma as expressed in the suttas, commentaries, and abhidhamma.

Is it any wonder that after reading CAW's someone might get the idea 
that "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma 
is completely wrong"? 

This is just one example that might be interesting to discuss. I will 
write about more examples soon, health permitting (the pneumonia has 
returned).

 
5382 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 7:35am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Hi Dan,

I'm running out the door, so no time for any comments, but:

--- Dan wrote: >
> This is just one example that might be interesting to discuss. I will 
> write about more examples soon, health permitting (the pneumonia has 
> returned).

I'm sure we're all sorry to hear about this.....what a drag!!! Hope you get well soon! In the
meantime, I seem to remember the last attack of pneumonia seemed to be an excellent time for
dhamma reflection and great posts here. I look forward to hearing more from you and others.

Best wishes,
Sarah


 
5383 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:15am
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  In my own limited understanding it seems like these things are a 
matter of degree. Of course in the beginning the obstacles seem great 
but the more you learn by observation of them and implementing the 
precepts and the eightfold path the lesser of an obstacle they become 
due to the skillfulness you develop in knowing them, recognising 
them, developing a better way of being that stops feeding them, 
seeing into what they are and developing ways that they have less 
capacity to control.

I think discouragement is a significant factor in developing Dhamma 
Practice. This is, I think, why a friend or teacher is neccesary. 
Forums like this list can also be useful in that sense. Although they 
can also be a source of confusion and discouragement.To work without 
consistent guidance takes a particular type of character, I think. To 
work with random guidance from various parties can be confusing and 
discouraging, especially early on in your career. 

Funny thing is that I am usually a little elated to find I have had 
some wrong view or understanding. I feel like I must be developing 
toward a better understanding if I have to deconstruct something I 
have been hanging on to. This is a character thing too I think. That 
is why I think consistency is critical in the beginning, consistency 
of guidance that is.

I love reading about the Dhamma and I read all the time. It often 
puts me in a position where I am reading books from different 
traditions that explain things in what are some time almost 
diametrically opposing ways. Sometimes its a bit like working with a 
Koan (kung-an).

I would suggest that no-one depend on the internet to recieve their 
dhamma teaching. Although this may be possible in the future if co-
ordinated properly it can only be a supplement or an adjunct at the 
most. Find a teacher. I'm sure it's OK to work with them via email or 
a list but a list of general practitioners (in the buddhist sense 
that is) cannot be your teacher. They may perhaps be your support.

I hope I'm speaking [typing] to the subject now as I've been hacking 
away for some time.

Antony Brennan



-- Dan wrote:
> Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost 
despairing 
> note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. At 
> the time, I thought each of his twelve points was a sharp 
observation 
> about the tone of some familiar, contemporary Abhidhamma writers' 
> (CAW) comments and views. He has since stopped posting to the list. 
I 
> don't know exactly what his comments were about, but I do know they 
> are very similar to the thoughts I have when reading CAW's and very 
> different from the uplifting, encouraging thoughts I have from 
> reading Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma). Since our friend's 
> famous post, several comments from CAW's have seemed to miss the 
mark 
> about why someone would find their writing discouraging. From my 
> memory, some of the comments have been things like: "Oh, no, Dhamma 
> is uplifting, but it takes courage to face it." The comments seem 
to 
> betray a confusion between "being discouraged" and "finding 
someone's 
> writing discouraging", and between "a CAW's writing" and "Buddha's 
> Dhamma." I never find the suttas or Abhidhamma discouraging, but I 
> can't say the same for CAW's. What is the difference? I think 
April's 
> despairing post from our friend outlined the points very clearly. 
I'd 
> like to take his outline and expand on it with my own examples. 
> Please note that my examples may well have nothing to do with what 
> our friend was thinking when he wrote his post and only represent 
my 
> understanding. 
> 
> But first, what exactly is a CAW? I'm going to leave the term 
> undefined for now because the comments I will quote will be 
> recognizable to most, and I do not want to prejudice those who 
don't 
> recognize the comments.
> 
> Discouraging 1.1: "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood 
> about the Dhamma is completely wrong." An early lesson in Dhamma is 
> that sensual desire (kamacchanda), ill-will (byapada), sloth and 
> torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca), 
> and sceptical doubt (vicikiccha) are hindrances (nivarana) to 
> spiritual development, both calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana). 
> The suttas and Abhidhamma often refer to the nivarana as obstacles 
to 
> overcome to attain jhana, and I don't think there would be a CAW in 
> disagreement there. But they are also obstacles to insight, as is 
> clear from both reason and practice. But is that clarity simply 
> micchaditthi (wrong view)? 
> 
> Some CAW's hold this view: "The nivarana that must be overcome in 
> order to attain jhana should not be regarded as the same nivarana 
> that need to be overcome in order to attain enlightenment. The 
> attainments/goals of the 2 kinds of development are quite 
different, 
> and so the conditions for that development and the obstacles to it 
> are also quite different.  The overcoming of the nivarana in the 
> attainment of jhana is not necessarily a condition for their being 
> overcome in the context of insight." Does this really say that the 
> nivarana are not obstacles to insight? Another CAW chimes in: "The 
> only hindrance [to satipatthana] is the last one, ignorance. The 
> other hindrances are to the development of samatha only."
> 
> This certainly goes against my experience, understanding, and 
> impression of my study and practice. How does it square with the 
> Buddha's Dhamma? After reading, contemplation, reflection, the 
CAW's 
> views do appear to be in contradiction. 
> 
> First, from Vissudhimagga (XXII, 57, Nyanamoli trans.): "The 
> hindrances are the five, namely lust [ill-will, sloth and torpor, 
> restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt], in the sense of 
> obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from 
> consciousness." This sure makes it sound like the nivarana are 
> obstacles and hindrances to satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom 
> because satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom require clear vision of 
> reality and the hindrances block that clear vision.
> 
> Was Buddhagosa just overreaching here, putting his own corrupt view 
> on the matter? I don't think so because everything else I've read 
of 
> his is such a reliable reflection of Buddha's Dhamma that I can't 
> help but think he's right here too. In any case, let's move on to 
the 
> suttas for confirmation.
> 
> AN 5:51: [Referring to the five nivarana]: "There are five 
> impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify 
> insight�.Without having overcome these five, it is impossible for a 
> monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to know his own 
> true good, the good of others, and the bood of both; nor will he be 
> capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive 
> achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of 
> sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and 
> hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, 
then 
> it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own 
> true good�" This is pretty unambiguous: The familiar five nivarana 
> are impediments and hindrances to strong insight.
> 
> In fact, Vibhanga appears to go even a step further: In the context 
> of attaining jhana, Vibhanaga (508, U Thittila trans.) 
> states: "Abandoning these five hindrances (that are) mental 
> corruptions and attenuation of wisdom, he, aloof from sense 
> pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in the first 
> jhana�" As for the nivarana being the "attenuation of wisdom," 
> Vibhanga continues (563): "'Attenuation of wisdom' means: Because 
of 
> these five hindrances wisdom that has not arisen does not arise, 
also 
> wisdom that has arisen ceases. Therefore this is called 
`attenuation 
> of wisdom'." This seems to say that by that very attenuation of 
> wisdom, the nivarana prevent the establishment of jhana. 
> 
> In this case, the CAW's statements that the nivarana are not 
> obstacles to insight seem to be very much at odds with Buddha's 
> Dhamma as expressed in the suttas, commentaries, and abhidhamma.
> 
> Is it any wonder that after reading CAW's someone might get the 
idea 
> that "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the 
Dhamma 
> is completely wrong"? 
> 
> This is just one example that might be interesting to discuss. I 
will 
> write about more examples soon, health permitting (the pneumonia 
has 
> returned).

 
5384 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:16am
Subject: Re: why lurkers lurk and don't post

 
  Thanks Victoria and Robert

lets hear more from other lurkers, what do you like best abou lurking 
on this list.

antony brennan


--- Tori Korshak  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Antony,
> 
> Thanks for your considered and humourous approach-rare enough.
> 
> Metta from one lurker to another,
> Victoria
> 
> At 04:06 AM 5/28/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >I'm a bit of a lurker I guess. there's usually so much to read here
> >and think about that there's no time for posting.
> >
> >I think some people lack the confidence to post for their own
> >personal reasons.
> >
> >I don't mean to be a lurker really but it somehow seems a bit rude 
to
> >push in on a thread and have your say.
> >
> >then there's the morbid fear of starting your own thread and hoping
> >someone feels it's worthy enough to respond.
> >
> >I guess you could do a whole psychological profile of this 
situation.
> >I think it is very difficult to enculture a list and get enough
> >people who are seriously intersted enough to help things along. I
> >think that situation does exist here. Of course the road has been
> >rocky and the good posters have left with the bad but there is a 
good
> >environment here I think even the hardcore lurkers would agree with
> >that. I would think many people lurk because that's what they do.
> >
> >'Don't look this gift horse (of a list) in the mouth' as they say. 
I
> >think it means if someone gives you a horse for nothing don't look
> >for problems with it. Not that some of you haven't put a lot of 
work
> >into making this list worthwhile but if you look at some of the 
other
> >lists for comparison this is a good one. You have few people who 
post
> >reams of quoted material for no particular reason (no-one at the
> >moment I think) you have little agressive behaviour, not for a 
while
> >anyway (I've been keeping quiet see) and you have few, if any,
> >advertising posters swimming by.
> >
> >How to encourage more posters? Perhaps you could encourage non-
> >posters to choose a subject either in person or off-line. Can you 
see
> >who lurks but doesn't post in the administrative part of the list 
you
> >could mail them and say "hey we saw you drop by etc. In one of the
> >yahoo clubs that I had participated in some time back they used to
> >send an email encouraging participation to all members. Perhaps you
> >could have a subject of the week for open posting like: What the 
hell
> >is KUSULA anyway (only an example)
> >
> >If you are a lurker whey not consider posting something only if it 
is
> >to express your appreciation of something you read here. I've done
> >that kind of thing before. Hey that's an interesting conversation
> >you're having! Here's an example: "Hey Herman, I like what you've
> >been asking in the ease and stuff thread, My self is so pervasive 
and
> >ubiquitous that I really start to think I'm me sometimes. I 
wouldn't
> >mind seeing some textual references on that either."
> >
> >
> >Antony Brennan

 

 
5385 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:30am
Subject: Re: lurking, posting

 
  Hello Robert

Happy lurking. I don't think there's anything wrong at all with list 
lurking, after all there's anly so much time in the day.

>I already know what *I* think, after all!  Sometimes
>I think that posters are just trying to prove they know something 
>when they post.  Other times, of course, people really *do* know 
>something and are doing the rest of the list a favor by sharing what 
>they know. 

of course what you say here is so true, not that you know what you 
think already that's conjecture isn't it? :) But that there is 
probablym ore interesting psychology to why people do post as much as 
some do. For me I often feel like I work things out as I write. I've 
written since I was a child and it seems to have developed into 
helping me think things out. I often type out whole posts then say 
MMM that was interesting I didn't know that, then I delete it. I 
wouldn't want to bore everyone with my raving now would I.

there is a lot to be learned by reading here, I think. I read a lot 
and don't post so much.

>There is a guy over on D-L right now who is driving me up a tree.  
>Or *was* driving me up a tree -- he still would be if I still read 
>him.  When I see a post from that gentleman I just more on 


Oh tell me about it  I developed the last confrontation, I wish I had 
your advice then. I only jsut got over feeling bad about being so 
stupid so as to do it. 

Thanks for your comments and I wish you well with your practice.


antony brennan


--- "North Jersey Mindfulness Community" 
 wrote:
> > --- Antony wrote:
> > I'm a bit of a lurker I guess. there's usually so much to read
> > here and think about that there's no time for posting.
> 
> Hi all --
> I am a consummate lurker, which is not that odd until you realize
> that I have been moderating professional and personal e-lists 
> for almost a decade!
> 
> I don't have much to say for a number of reasons.  First, much of
> what goes on the Dhamma Study Group is new to me, and I really
> don't have a lot to add.  I am not much for psychology and don't 
know
> the Abidhamma.  My study has all been in the Suttas, and of course
> in the practicalities of meditation.  So I don't post on this list 
because
> I've not much to add 
> " -- Don't say anything that doesn't improve on Silence -- "
> 
> In other lists I might be tempted to write in, but am more curious 
about
> what others have to say.  I already know what *I* think, after 
all!  Sometimes
> I think that posters are just trying to prove they know something 
when they
> post.  Other times, of course, people really *do* know something 
and are
> doing the rest of the list a favor by sharing what they know.  Me, 
I mostly
> just like to watch --
> 
> In some cases -- not on this list, mind you -- I find people really 
burn me up.
> There is a guy over on D-L right now who is driving me up a tree.  
Or *was*
> driving me up a tree -- he still would be if I still read him.  
When I see a post
> from that gentleman I just more on -- I get hundreds, literally 
hundreds, of emails
> a day and just don't need to waste my time on people I know are 
going to make
> me angry.  In most cases these people are not approachable anyway;  
I am not
> capable of convincing them of my view any more than they are of 
convincing me
> of theirs -- so why bother?
> 
> An analogous situation is when people talk-talk-talk on retreat, 
when we are
> supposed to be observing noble silence.  I could ask them to shut 
up, but my
> reaction is to leave them alone and keep my own mouth shut.   I'm 
not saying
> this is the "right" way to act on either retreat or an e-list, just 
saying that's the
> way I am --
> 
> Metta --
> Robert
> North Jersey Mindfulness Community
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=091063014098146233033082190
> http://satipatthana.org/

 
5386 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:42am
Subject: Re: anatta, ease and stuff

 
  Oh No Sarah I wasn't speaking about your type of really long quoting. 
Yours was in context and part of a thread and supporting the 
discussion. 

I remember previously Mr McCall complaining about Mr Yick flooding 
the list with quotes from books that were not part of a discussion 
and had no immediate context and no comment from himself. Although 
that may spark a discussion it more often gets in the way. 

Antony Lurk



--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Hi Antony, 
Howard, Herman, Jon, CL and
> all the others crying out for suttas on this topic:
> 
> Just a quick apology.....I had no idea until I just printed it out 
that this post was SO long and
> that I had quoted so much from Nina's translation of SURVEY of P.D. 
Personally I found the padding
> around the sutta so good that I was having trouble trimming 
sufficiently, but really thought it
> was only a page or two ;-(.....!
> 
> (Anthony, I should have read your post more carefully first about 
the 'reams of quoted material'!!
> ...and thanks for all your comments and encouragement to lurkers..I 
wouldn't call you a lurker
> btw)
> 
> Sarah


 
5387 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:29am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest N umber 434 _

 
  Dear Paul,

	Thank youfor your insight on these matters.... they way you put it
really put my mind at rest thanks again...

May you be well and happy always,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Paul Bail [SMTP:Paul Bail]
> Sent:	Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:03 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest
> Number 434 _
> 
> Dear Loke,
> 
> If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing
> of 
> Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early 
> Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church
> Fathers" 
> believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates.  
> Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was 
> later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered
> one 
> of the Church fathers.  Also the Hassidic Jews believe in 
> reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of
> Jesus's 
> period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know.  In
> India, 
> where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established
> belief.  
> However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that 
> because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life 
> process.  So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment 
> process to your friends.
> 
> From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of 
> no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life.  Unless 
> everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently.
> No 
> rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment.
> This 
> is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God.  Of course,
> 
> they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point.
> 
> I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they
> 
> are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you
> a 
> hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things.
> If 
> they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion
> 
> onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality,
> etc.)? 
> If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful.
> 
> Paul Bail
> 
>    From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> Subject: RE: Digest Number 434
> 
> Dear Pau Bail,
> 
>         Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly
> however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how
> then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians
> don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the
> doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process
> till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and
> workings.... ?
> 
> rgds,
> Loke CL
> 
>  
> 
>

 
5388 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:58am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 434

 
  Thanks for your advice.. however...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Joyce Short [SMTP:Joyce Short]
> Sent:	Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:59 PM
> Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 434
> 
> 
> > Dear Loke,
> > 
> > You wrote:
> > 
> > << on of the other reason is being that I wish to be able to put forward
> the
> > Buddhist idea when confronted by Christians on the subject of debates in
> > various aspect of the religions >>
> >
> > <....And also I have another question.... How do we explain
> > rebirth (the idea) to a Christian ?
> 
> Same way as to Buddhist friends.  Good to understand it oneself first.
> Explain anatta to them
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  it will so difficult to explain so dry
a topic to someone from other faith... even I myself though understands it
find it difficult at times to fully grasp the idea (or should I say
penetrate it)

> >Some of my friends agrees that Buddhism
> > is good and true... except for one lie which is rebirth ? How do I get
> > around this ?>>
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  no doubt below is true to the Dhamma
point of view.. I am looking for a more simplified and digestiable concept
and idea to bring forth... anyone got any layman term and concept ?

> rebirth=Paticcasamuppada
> 
> "Throught the process of Becoming is conditioned Rebirth.
> 
> "The problem 'whether man has free will' does not exist for the Buddhist,
> since he knows that, apart from these ever changing mental and physical
> phenomena, no such entity as 'me' can ever be found, and that 'man' is
> merely a name not relating to any reality.  And the question, 'whether
> will
> is free', must be rejected for the reason that 'will' or volition, is a
> mental phenomenon flashing forth only for a moment, and that, as such, it
> had no existence in the former moment.  For of a thing that is not, or is
> not yet, one cannot not properly speaking, ask whether it is free or
> unfree.
> The only admissible question would be whether the arising of 'Will' is
> independent of conditions, or whether it be conditioned.  But the same
> question would apply to all mental phenomena, as well as to all physical
> phenomena, in other words: to everything, and every occurrence whatsoever.
> And the answer would be -whether Will arises, or whether Feeling arises,
> or
> whatever mental or physical phenomenon arises, the arising of anything
> whatsoever is depedend on conditions, and wihout conditions nothing can
> ever
> arise or enter into existence."  from Nyanatiloka
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Joyce
> 
> 
>  
> 
>

 
5389 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 2:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] lurking, posting

 
  Hi Robert (NJMC),

GREAT to hear from you and well done Anthony!

--- North Jersey Mindfulness Community  wrote: > > --- Antony
wrote:
 Hi all --
> I am a consummate lurker, which is not that odd until you realize
> that I have been moderating professional and personal e-lists 
> for almost a decade!
> 
Very interesting indeed.......I'm sure you could give us plenty of  tips as newbies! 

> I don't have much to say for a number of reasons.  First, much of
> what goes on the Dhamma Study Group is new to me, and I really
> don't have a lot to add.  I am not much for psychology and don't know
> the Abidhamma.  My study has all been in the Suttas, and of course
> in the practicalities of meditation.  So I don't post on this list because
> I've not much to add 
> " -- Don't say anything that doesn't improve on Silence -- "
> 
> In other lists I might be tempted to write in, but am more curious about
> what others have to say.  I already know what *I* think, after all!  Sometimes
> I think that posters are just trying to prove they know something when they
> post.  Other times, of course, people really *do* know something and are
> doing the rest of the list a favor by sharing what they know.  Me, I mostly
> just like to watch --

Well, just here it sounds like you have some useful contributions to make:-) It's certianly true,
I find, that the motives can be very mixed (just as they can when we keep quiet too!!). The parts
that sound new, do they sound 'interesting new', 'waste of time new' or 'what new'?
> 
> In some cases -- not on this list, mind you -- I find people really burn me up.
> There is a guy over on D-L right now who is driving me up a tree.  Or *was*
> driving me up a tree -- he still would be if I still read him.  When I see a post
> from that gentleman I just more on -- I get hundreds, literally hundreds, of emails
> a day and just don't need to waste my time on people I know are going to make
> me angry.  In most cases these people are not approachable anyway;  I am not
> capable of convincing them of my view any more than they are of convincing me
> of theirs -- so why bother?

Well, I agree, sometimes we need to be selective in what we read. My problem is always lack of
time (or rather juggling too many commitments).
> 
> An analogous situation is when people talk-talk-talk on retreat, when we are
> supposed to be observing noble silence.  I could ask them to shut up, but my
> reaction is to leave them alone and keep my own mouth shut.   I'm not saying
> this is the "right" way to act on either retreat or an e-list, just saying that's the
> way I am --

Yes, very different accumulations!
If you feel like telling us anything about your group( NJMC) all your lists you moderate, that
would be interesting too. Your post is a good reminder for methat there are people skimming
through hundreds of emails a day.......!!

Thanks and look forward to more,

Sarah 

p.s. Please let Jon and myself know off-list anytime if there is any advice you'd like to share
from running all your lists!


 
5390 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 2:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: anatta, ease and stuff

 
  Hi Mr Lurk,

--- Antony wrote: > Oh No Sarah I wasn't speaking about your type of really long
quoting. 
> Yours was in context and part of a thread and supporting the 
> discussion. 

Thanks for this...you're most encouraging. Still, it's good to remember there are many people
here, like Robert,  who receive hundreds of emails a day and well....shorter and sharper is
usually more appreciated by many, I know. Many thanks for reading through.

You're doing a great job of rounding up (or out) the lurkers. Can we formally make you Lurkers
Liaison Lieutenant (LLL)? We've rather let them lurk quietly, but you're welcome to use your far
more motivating talents to encourage them. You could even have a 'Lurkers' Day' for serious
lurkers when the rest of us promise to keep quiet!

Thanks Anthony, 

Sarah

p.s. those evenings must be getting pretty dark Down Under..any more good purchases from the
bookshop? And just how many lists do  YOu follow? I bet you could get as many emails as Robert
(NJMC)!!



 
5391 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 3:01pm
Subject: Re: anatta, ease and stuff

 
  Lurkers Day... mmm perhpas we can sell little badges.

Calling all Lurkers... Calling all lurkers... what do you think about 
a coming out day. We could have  pro forma lurkers post like this

[you tick werever appropriate


******************************************************
I like to lurk on this list because:

It's really interesting and I can learn something ( )

They talk about really weird things               ( )

I feel like a Buddhist and want to know more      ( )

I've tried to un-suscribe but it doesn't work     ( )

List? what list?                                  ( )

No comment, lurkers have the right to lurk        ( )

I'm being moderated and they don't let any
of my posts through you ***** and ***** *****     ( )

Or type your own personal comments here

.......................................................
.......................................................
.......................................................
.......................................................
.......................................................
.......................................................
.......................................................
.......................................................



antony brennan
LLL



--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Hi Mr Lurk,
> 
> --- Antony wrote: > Oh No Sarah I wasn't speaking about your 
type of really long
> quoting. 
> > Yours was in context and part of a thread and supporting the 
> > discussion. 
> 
> Thanks for this...you're most encouraging. Still, it's good to 
remember there are many people
> here, like Robert,  who receive hundreds of emails a day and 
well....shorter and sharper is
> usually more appreciated by many, I know. Many thanks for reading 
through.
> 
> You're doing a great job of rounding up (or out) the lurkers. Can 
we formally make you Lurkers
> Liaison Lieutenant (LLL)? We've rather let them lurk quietly, but 
you're welcome to use your far
> more motivating talents to encourage them. You could even have 
a 'Lurkers' Day' for serious
> lurkers when the rest of us promise to keep quiet!
> 
> Thanks Anthony, 
> 
> Sarah
> 
> p.s. those evenings must be getting pretty dark Down Under..any 
more good purchases from the
> bookshop? And just how many lists do  YOu follow? I bet you could 
get as many emails as Robert
> (NJMC)!!
> 


 
5392 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 3:07pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Dear Loke or CL,

(I'm still not clear which you prefer???),

 wrote: 
  
> 				we can test and prove this moment that there
> is no self or God in the seeing, hearing and other realities... HOW ?
> 
> 
By developing awareness and understanding....slowly!
At the moment of seeing, where is the self or God? At the moment of hearing, the same question.
How can self or God be experienced/ Surely only by thinking about the concepts. While we cling to
the idea of a self here, for sure we will cling to the idea of other beings and Gods. It takes a
lot of hearing and considering for understanding to grow. We just try to give each other a little
support here.

I'm enjoying Paul's posts to you and your questions very much. I'm also glad to read the good
advice from Joyce and Salamat too. I know many people on the list here who have partners and
spouses with different beliefs and following other religions. We all have friends too with
different philosophies or religions. Usually it's the attachment ('ours' rather than 'theirs')
that makes it hard if it's hard....Usually it's better to just develop our 'own' understanding and
let them ask when it's the right time. As Paul said I think, you can find areas of agreement for
discussion. This may make for a more harmonious household or friendship!

Keep letting us know how you're getting on.

Sarah




 
5393 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: pro forma lurkers post from the LLL

 
  Antony (LLL),

What a wit and you did this in the time it took me to make (what I thought) was a quick ph call!
Let's see if anyone sends back the pro forma lurkers post..!

Thanks for a good laugh,
S.




 
5394 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 5:43pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  first .. it does not matter if it is Loke or CL... Loke = my family name and
CL = short form for my given name... anything will do.. this never bothers
me..... first and foremost.. thank you all for your generous time and help
in these matters..... I really appreciate it.... maybe if I am a Christian I
would be labelled an evangelist for all my aggressive approach to
Christianities idea and philosophy and idea.... hehehehehhe.... it is so bad
of me.... bad karma of me to be generating trying to force people and
challenge people's faith.... of course there are intention etc etc floating
around. anyway back to the topic developing awareness... the key word here
is SLOWLY... sigh... I think might not be able to achieve in convincing that
Dhamma is the way .. in such a short while.. Dhamma advises on showing the
way by setting an example for oneself.... guess there is no other way huh ?
I agree with you that to develop own understanding for our own good .... but
somehow I am sure with the worldly life's attachments... all of us wants the
best for our loved ones even religion wise even they don't see the
benefits.... what do you think ?

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Sarah Procter Abbott [SMTP:Sarah ]
> Sent:	Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:08 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> 
> Dear Loke or CL,
> 
> (I'm still not clear which you prefer???),
> 
>  wrote: 
>   
> > 				we can test and prove this moment that there
> > is no self or God in the seeing, hearing and other realities... HOW ?
> > 
> > 
> By developing awareness and understanding....slowly!
> At the moment of seeing, where is the self or God? At the moment of
> hearing, the same question.
> How can self or God be experienced/ Surely only by thinking about the
> concepts. While we cling to
> the idea of a self here, for sure we will cling to the idea of other
> beings and Gods. It takes a
> lot of hearing and considering for understanding to grow. We just try to
> give each other a little
> support here.
> 
> I'm enjoying Paul's posts to you and your questions very much. I'm also
> glad to read the good
> advice from Joyce and Salamat too. I know many people on the list here who
> have partners and
> spouses with different beliefs and following other religions. We all have
> friends too with
> different philosophies or religions. Usually it's the attachment ('ours'
> rather than 'theirs')
> that makes it hard if it's hard....Usually it's better to just develop our
> 'own' understanding and
> let them ask when it's the right time. As Paul said I think, you can find
> areas of agreement for
> discussion. This may make for a more harmonious household or friendship!
> 
> Keep letting us know how you're getting on.
> 
> Sarah
> 

 
5395 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Heart problem

 
  dear Group,
A friend wrote to me that the reason they can't believe in the
Atthakatta (commentaries) is because they say the heart is the
base for consciousness. they wrote:
_____
> On the other hand, Buddagosa CONFIRMS in Visuddimagga that the
> seat of the
> Mind is Heart. Now we know, this cannot be possible, through
> lots of
> knowledge we have gained on the functions of the heart and the
> brain and the
> associated central nervous system. If the heart is the seat of
> the
> consciousness, what happens during open heart surgeries where
> the heart is
> kept inactive for hours before activating by an electric shock
> at the end of
> the operation.
> 
> On the other hand, what consciousness a person will have who
> receives a new
> heart from another dead person?
> 
__________________________________________
Dear friend,
 All of us are much conditioned by an age where scientific
discoveries seem so testable and provable. It is natural that
doubts arise on this matter.
The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart
basis):
they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart
"there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a
pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support
the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur."
Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu
NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather  as the
Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis
occurs with this blood as its support".
You see the actual hadaya-vatthu is incredibly sublime - in
scientific measure it wouldn't even amount to a tiny fraction of
a gram. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by
scientific instruments. 
This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada rupa). The
Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term
pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we think
an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)The actual sensitive
matter in the eye and ear is very refined. If someone dies then
the ear-sense and eye sense (sotapasada and cakkhu-pasada ) are
immediately no longer produced (they are produced by kamma only)
yet one would not notice much outward change looking at the eye
and ear(at least for the first few minutes before decomposition
sets in). The same applies to the heart - the blood in the heart
would have the same volume after death and yet the hadaya-vatthu
is no longer present.


 I think you accept that consciousness arises soon after
conception. The fetus at that stage is so tiny as to be
invisible to all but the most trained eye (if even that large).
yet consciousness is arising and passing away dependent on some
matter(rupa) somewhere. There is certainly no brain yet but
according to the commentaries the heart basis (hadaya-vattu )
,that extremely subtle, rupa is already present - conditioned by
kamma. This shows how extraordinarily subtle this type of rupa
is. 
There is more that I could write about this. However, I think
one can see how heart transplants etc. make no difference to the
arising and passing of this subtle conditioned rupa.
. 
What does the brain do then? It does something, it is like
wiring center needed for functioning of the body mind - Sure if
you pull out a few wires , just as with a computer, things
aren't going to work so well. One will always be confused about
these problems if one thinks in  stories about people and hearts
and medicine and brain- Even detailed scientific explanations
cannot approach the nature of the true reality of the evanescent
conditioned phenomena we call life. There are only rupas and
namas arising and passing away, and just as with the tipitaka
the commentaries lead us to see this truth .
robert








 
5396 From: Antony 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: Heart problem

 
  The following link is to a amazon page for a book called:

The Heart's Code : Tapping the Wisdom and Power of Our Heart Energy : 
The New Findings About Cellular Memories and Their Role in the 
Mind/Body/Spirit

in it is discussed the science behind the growing belief that 
consciousness is based largley in the heart. It is a fascinating 
book. I think anyone who has practiced meditation for long enough 
gets a sense of this in their own experience.

One of the fascinatingthings in the book is the studies that show 
that our hearts may be activley communicating with each other before 
we are even consdiously aware of each others presence. Anyone 
interested in the subject shuld get a copy of the book. I've seen it 
cheap here in OZ as it has been remaindered.



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900952/o/qid=991229879/sr=2
-2/102-8718234-4401734


antony brennan


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> dear Group,
> A friend wrote to me that the reason they can't believe in the
> Atthakatta (commentaries) is because they say the heart is the
> base for consciousness. they wrote:

 
5397 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem

 
  Bravo again Robert!

	This is yet another hurdle when switching over to "buddhist"
thinking.
From the childhood , we are fed with "scientific stories" about the brain.
But in the tipitaka , virtually one cannot find anything that explains or
relating to the brain.(other than in the asubha bhavana).
	Swiching station was how I "understood" it too. :o)


Thanks

 
5398 From: Erik 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:38pm
Subject: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Hi all,

As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am presently 
creating a computerized model of key elements and their relations 
(paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance, along 
with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes this 
unique, I think.

My feeling, from preliminary systems analysis, is that this is 
feasible, and will yield interesting results in terms of analysis of 
dhammas using the Abhidhamma as a canonical reference.

The current data model is broken out as follows: all terms in this 
model are "atoms," or the smallest meaning-units we can work with, 
for example, the term "avijja."

For example, an entry with attributes, using "avijja" as an example, 
looks like:

Entry: "avijja":

1. definitions (multi-language support)
  a. Pali
     I. literal term: avijja
  b. English
     I. literal term: ignorance
    II. Ignorance that conceives of self-essence

(note: all definitions have volume and paragraph references as well: 
ex. "MN.118" or "Vis. XX.10", meaning that all definitions will have 
a hyperlink to the source of the definition for reference if 
available).

2. synonyms
  a. moha

3. relations (paccaya)
  a. root condition for sankhara
  b. prenascence condition for sankhara

4. categories (any number of arbitrary categories)
  a. paticca samuppada

5. groups
  a. akusala

As this entry shows, the term "avijja" contains attributes like
"definitions," which can be in any language, "synonyms," for 
thesaurus-like lookups, and most important, "relations": how "avijja" 
is related to other conceptual "atoms" (not in the Vaisesika sense!) 
via relations.

Modeling these relations programatically means it should be possible 
to "surf" from one relation to the next, much as one navigates the 
Web, through hyperlinking. The idea is to create a hyperlinked 
reference of key terms from the Dhammasangani and Patthana. I have 
already constructed a quick and dirty prototype of this in CSharp 
(the new MS programming language), but found that it came up short. I 
have chosen to implement the protptype using generic Common LISP--an 
artifial intelligence programming language designed for managing 
lists and categories, which is very portable across computing 
architectures and has a simple, powerful, and very flexible
grammar (lambda functions for dynamic rule execution, example).

One aim is to allow the user of this application to create custom 
queries (natural language would be a nice goal, and is well-supported 
in LISP) that navigate from one connection to the next using 
specific "rules," such as "show me all atoms that belong to the 
akusala group." Or, "show me all the parallel factors associate with 
viriyindriya."

Another goal is to be able to take these data structures and 
represent them visually, for example, displaying a tree of the 
primary Abhidhamma categories. Down the road, if time permits, a 
three-dimensional "hyperbrowser" for Abhidhamma concepts may be 
possible.

As I have been considering this project, a number of goals have 
presented themselves:

1. THE DHAMMA MUST BE FREE. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO MACCARIYA, EVER, with 
regard to sharing the Dhamma, as some organizations do (which is 
incomprehensible to me). It must also be universally accessible, via 
the Web, to allow anyone to browse Abhidhamma/Dhamma categories and 
definitions and relations from the comfort of their own homes.

2. It must allow for collaboration. The job of inputting definitions 
is tedious, and no one person in one lifetime can ever do this 
justice. Collaborators MUST be able to edit the database from the 
Web, to submit or modify entries, etc. Another important reason for 
this is that its aim is to provide multi-language support. Language-
specific editors need to be able to create references to source texts 
in a given language, as well as add definitions. There is no limit on 
the number of languages this will support. Each "atom" can have 
definitions if Sanskrit, English, French, etc.

3. It should be able to support concept-spaces across Canons, e.g. 
the terms & concepts in the Tipitaka Abhidhamma should be tied to 
terms and references from the Abhidharmakosa. This would allow for 
cross-referencing between versions and definitions as they appear. 
This will GREATLY facilitate the process of translation, both of the 
Tibetan Kanjur & Tenjur as well as any remaining untranslated 
components of the Abhidhamma. This was my original motivation: to 
provide a concordance and reference, with term hyperlinking. This is 
something I began to explore when working on the Asian Classics Input 
Project (http://www.asianclassics.org/), which was begun by Geshe 
Michael Roach to digitally input all the key texts from the Tibetan 
Canon (see: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.08/dharma_pr.html).

4. The structural relations will allow for MUCH interesting 
processing, perhaps even a "meditation advisor" expoert system, which 
like the simple Artifial Intelligence (AI) program Eliza, could ask a 
series of questions and provide feedback from the Abhidhamma, using 
things like relations (paccaya) that show the necessity of certain 
path-factors to meditation, and how to counteract nivaranas one seems 
to have present (based on the advisor's questions). This is just one 
possibility--perhaps a bit hokey--but the potential of computational 
analysis on relations among "atoms" shuold hopefully be clear.

Areas I need some help in:

I am posting this here in hopes that some here can take a look at 
the "atom" definition and see if I'm missing anything. I think a 
combination of attributes and relations hould be enough to define 
an "atom."

Also, at present, given I only have the Visuddimagga as a guide, the 
list of relations there simply won't cut it given the scope of the 
Patthana, for example. To that end, does anyone here have a copy of 
the BUDSIR (from Manidol U.) of ALL the Pali Tipitaka digitized I 
could download? I know it's big (70+M), but I have DSL. I need a core 
reference so I can begin inputting some core definitions from the 
Patthana, if possible.

Comments, suggestions, or digital copies of the Canon in Pali and 
English would all be greatly appreciated. If there is a digital 
version of even the Visuddhimagga and a Pali dictionary it would be a 
great start.

 
5399 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Dear Erik,

>Also, at present, given I only have the Visuddimagga as a guide, the
>list of relations there simply won't cut it given the scope of the
>Patthana, for example. To that end, does anyone here have a copy of
>the BUDSIR (from Manidol U.) of ALL the Pali Tipitaka digitized I
>could download? I know it's big (70+M), but I have DSL. I need a core
>reference so I can begin inputting some core definitions from the
>Patthana, if possible.
>
>Comments, suggestions, or digital copies of the Canon in Pali and
>English would all be greatly appreciated. If there is a digital
>version of even the Visuddhimagga and a Pali dictionary it would be a
>great start.

I would suggest you go to the following website for links to dictionaries
and downloadable Pali texts (Burmese and Sinhalese versions):

http://members.home.net/j-andrew-shaw/pali.htm

The Visuddhimaagga and the whole Abhidhammapitaka with all its
commentaries are already available online for downloading.

Best wishes,
Jim


 
5400 From: Num 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem

 
  Hi Robert,

Your mail caught my attention, so I did open Visuddhimagga, PTS 1971 by Pe 
Maung Tin, and read only part of chapter VIII, Mindfulness as to the Body.   
The intention of mindfulness of the body is clearly said at the beginning, 
...conduces greatly to benefit, conduces greatly to peace from bondage, 
conduces greatly to mindfulness and comprehension, conduces to the attainment 
of knowledge and discernment, conduces to comfort in present life, conduces 
to realization of wisdom, emancipation and fruition.  Which one is that 
state?  Mindfulness as to the body.

I am pretty impressed with the way it written. And this book was written 
around 500 AD.  It's written in a very anatomical oriented manner, not 
physiological or function oriented.   I am impressed that it's very in detail 
and somewhat deep and accurate.   I guess that the information was obtained 
by studying may be dissecting a corpse.  Divided into 32 parts, from top to 
bottom. I did not see anything about hadaya vatthu in the heart nor the brain 
section.  May be it's in Atthakatta.  The writer added in some comment such 
as, "the liver of those sluggish intellect is single and large. Those who are 
possessed lot of wisdom have two or more or three small livers".   I don't 
think I agree with that.  But the point of this is as it mentioned at the 
beginning is to help in being mindful and detached from idea of body as being 
a whole or body as myself.

Come back to the heart.  This is my personal opinion, OK. Because we can 
always sense something at the heart when our emotion change.  Pounding with 
panic or anxiety, broken with sadness and disappointment, enlarge with 
rapture and elation.  So we trend to make a link between the heart and the 
mind.  The brain itself cannot even feel the pain if it were cut and it does 
not change with changing state of emotion.      I cannot make any comment on 
connection between the mind and the brain or where is hadaya vatthu.  My gut 
feeling is in Buddhism, the way of categorization is not anatomical or 
physiological oriented.   As you said, Chakku-pasada is not the eye but it's 
something exists only a short moment as a base for contact between color and 
perception then falls away, happened to be occurred in the eyes.  Rupa exists 
on a very short basis and falls away and then a new set occurs and falls away 
again.

Alright, have to go.

Robert, thanks for an interesting topic.  

Num





 
5401 From: Purnomo .   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /

 
  I'm not agree what you said.
How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The 
Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. 
The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your holy 
life. May Those used to you and all.
Thank, be happier, be better every day
metta,

Purnomo

>From: Nina van Gorkom 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /
>Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200
>
>Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic
>question: what is the Abhidhamma.
>She wrote:
><If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & Abhidhamma
><books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy subject.What's
><Abhidhamma mostly about?
>
>Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here.
>
>Dear Dhamma friend,
>
>The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you
>see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be 
>like
>or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity.
>These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. 
>The
>Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the
>conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect.
>Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be
>void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these
>terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own
>inclination to what extent you want to study them.
>Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it,
>because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different
>times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when 
>there
>is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise
>at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in
>everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting.
>The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
>Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing
>experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing
>experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it 
>is
>dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it
>does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma.
>There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental
>phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience
>anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical
>phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
>You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to
>verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We 
>tend
>to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because 
>we
>have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. 
>We
>have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today.
>But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of
>them. It can help us in daily life.
>You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like
>that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you 
>not
>expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments
>of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas
>arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they
>unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying
>Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
>You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta
>arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s efforts who
>cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma
>teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should
>we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of
>the Abhidhamma.
>
>Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama.
>These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no
>matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is
>real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. 
>Hardness
>which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table
>or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of
>our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is
>only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma
>uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> on 
>Robert�s
>Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
>You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually
>you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are
>realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more 
>interesting.
>I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn Sujin�s Survey
>of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana.
>If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
>complicated than you thought at first.
>
>With metta, Nina.
>
>P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study 
>of
>the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but
>now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like 
>Jaran's
>remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo
>Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
>  I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some people may
>believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question
>relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much
>or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and
>this is for all of us.
>


 
5402 From: Purnomo .   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _

 
  Dear Loke,
you should understand who you are and who your friends. Thera are deep 
different what principal of Buddhism and other. So, if you explain from 
your-side never meet to point and may be will be debate which nothing used. 
But, if they always force you , I suggest you read "Beyond Belief" by Da 
Silva. You could search in site buddhism.
be happier, be better everyday
metta,

purnomo


>From: Paul Bail
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 
>434 _
>Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:03:19 EDT
>
>Dear Loke,
>
>If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the doing 
>of
>Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early
>Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church 
>Fathers"
>believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates.
>Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was
>later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still considered 
>one
>of the Church fathers.  Also the Hassidic Jews believe in
>reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of 
>Jesus's
>period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know.  In 
>India,
>where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established belief.
>However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond that
>because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to life
>process.  So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment
>process to your friends.
>
>From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of
>no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life.  Unless
>everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell permanently.  
>No
>rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment.  
>This
>is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God.  Of course,
>they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point.
>
>I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1) they
>are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving you 
>a
>hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things.  If
>they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the discussion
>onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality, 
>etc.)?
>If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful.
>
>Paul Bail
>
>    From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
>Subject: RE: Digest Number 434
>
>Dear Pau Bail,
>
>         Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly
>however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth... how
>then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the Christians
>don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the
>doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process
>till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and
>workings.... ?
>
>rgds,
>Loke CL
>


 
5403 From: Herman 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:14pm
Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma /

 
  Dear Purnomo.

I think there are many levels of understanding, and that any 
understanding cannot be a bad thing. Sila, samadhi, panna. These are 
all worthwhile and wholesome seeds, and so would be their fruits.. 

No need to seek for just one, or avoid another. Twelve (dependant 
origination), Four (noble truths), Eight (fold path), who do we 
appreciate? It all leads to the same goal.

Metta

Herman



--- "Purnomo ."  wrote:
> I'm not agree what you said.
> How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I 
think The 
> Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing 
else. 
> The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve 
your holy 
> life. May Those used to you and all.
> Thank, be happier, be better every day
> metta,
> 
> Purnomo
> 
> >From: Nina van Gorkom 
> >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /
> >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200
> >
> >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very 
basic
> >question: what is the Abhidhamma.
> >She wrote:
> ><If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & 
Abhidhamma
> ><books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy 
subject.What's
> ><Abhidhamma mostly about?
> >
> >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer 
it here.
> >
> >Dear Dhamma friend,
> >
> >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and 
again you
> >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound 
to be 
> >like
> >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is 
generosity.
> >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of 
Abhidhamma. 
> >The
> >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it 
shows the
> >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and 
effect.
> >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning 
would be
> >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained 
by these
> >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on 
your own
> >inclination to what extent you want to study them.
> >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse 
it,
> >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at 
different
> >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that 
when 
> >there
> >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, 
they arise
> >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We 
use in
> >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something 
lasting.
> >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
> >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing
> >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing
> >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a 
reality, it 
> >is
> >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences 
sound, it
> >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is 
dhamma.
> >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are 
mental
> >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not 
experience
> >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are 
physical
> >phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
> >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or 
names to
> >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of 
Abhidhamma. We 
> >tend
> >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? 
Because 
> >we
> >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views 
of them. 
> >We
> >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that 
today.
> >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more 
understanding of
> >them. It can help us in daily life.
> >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you 
act like
> >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or 
are you 
> >not
> >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there 
are moments
> >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of 
cittas
> >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or 
are they
> >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying
> >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
> >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of 
citta
> >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s 
efforts who
> >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the 
Abhidhamma
> >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your 
life. Should
> >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the 
study of
> >the Abhidhamma.
> >
> >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental 
phenomena, nama.
> >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for 
everyone, no
> >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another 
nama, is
> >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a 
beggar. 
> >Hardness
> >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of 
the table
> >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult 
terms of
> >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that 
our life is
> >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the 
Dhamma
> >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> 
on 
> >Robert�s
> >Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
> >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very 
gradually
> >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa 
are
> >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more 
> >interesting.
> >I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn 
Sujin�s Survey
> >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma 
Vipassana.
> >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
> >complicated than you thought at first.
> >
> >With metta, Nina.
> >
> >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about 
her study 
> >of
> >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and 
abstract but
> >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also 
like 
> >Jaran's
> >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just 
now. Hallo
> >Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
> >  I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some 
people may
> >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any 
question
> >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not 
studied much
> >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never 
enough, and
> >this is for all of us.
> >

 
5404 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Dear Dan,

--- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a short, almost
despairing 
> note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies.

I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be or aspire to be a CAW. I just
try to share any comments according to my very limited understanding.

I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the real problem is the dosa
conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony mentioned, character (or I'd say
accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for one person it will condition
lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for another peson it can condition
despair and aversion. Just as when  we are enjoying a buffet (a Hong Kong past-time) everyone
selects different dishes. As we know, dosa will always find an object!

I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course if we can learn better ways
to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). In the end, however, it is the
cittas and the intentions when we speak that count as we've discussed and of course we all
misunderstand others' points of view sometimes. For me, like Antony, I never find these exchanges
or discussions discouraging at all, even if they are my mistakes or misunderstandings that are
revealed. I realise that it is different for other people though. You've also pointed out how
people like myself  (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged or appreciated the role our
posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I apologise. 

However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and giving your viewpoints and
saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder before the discouragement sets in
or otherwise how is anyone to know?

Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details for now as I wanted to address
these other points first.

Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your comments.

Sarah




 
5405 From: Antony 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma /

 
  hello Purnomo.

coud you please elaborate in this:

> > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to 
achieve 
> your holy 
> > life. 

Do you know of any reference to that in the discourses of Buddha.

I must say I'm no big Abhidhammist myself, but in my limited 
knowledge I can see some relationship between the technology of 
abhidhamma and the 4 noble truths. I see many of our friends here 
using the abhidhmamma system to observe their suffering, to see that 
they are suffering to recognise that sufferng has it's causes to 
investigate the causes of this suffering and to practice stopping the 
feeding of their suffering. 

I don't disagree with you that the intellectual abstraction of 
Buddhas teaching may reduce it's effectiveness and may for many 
perhaps even prevent its effecctive implementation. 

Thanks for your time

antony brennan
> > 
> > Purnomo
> > 
> > >From: Nina van Gorkom 
> > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /
> > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200
> > >
> > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very 
> basic
> > >question: what is the Abhidhamma.
> > >She wrote:
> > ><If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & 
> Abhidhamma
> > ><books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy 
> subject.What's
> > ><Abhidhamma mostly about?
> > >
> > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to 
answer 
> it here.
> > >
> > >Dear Dhamma friend,
> > >
> > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and 
> again you
> > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is 
bound 
> to be 
> > >like
> > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is 
> generosity.
> > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of 
> Abhidhamma. 
> > >The
> > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it 
> shows the
> > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and 
> effect.
> > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning 
> would be
> > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities 
explained 
> by these
> > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on 
> your own
> > >inclination to what extent you want to study them.
> > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to 
analyse 
> it,
> > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are 
at 
> different
> > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us 
that 
> when 
> > >there
> > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, 
> they arise
> > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. 
We 
> use in
> > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests 
something 
> lasting.
> > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
> > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. 
Seeing
> > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. 
Hearing
> > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a 
> reality, it 
> > >is
> > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences 
> sound, it
> > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is 
> dhamma.
> > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are 
> mental
> > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not 
> experience
> > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are 
> physical
> > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
> > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or 
> names to
> > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of 
> Abhidhamma. We 
> > >tend
> > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is 
that? 
> Because 
> > >we
> > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views 
> of them. 
> > >We
> > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that 
> today.
> > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more 
> understanding of
> > >them. It can help us in daily life.
> > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you 
> act like
> > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or 
> are you 
> > >not
> > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there 
> are moments
> > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types 
of 
> cittas
> > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments 
or 
> are they
> > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are 
studying
> > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
> > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind 
of 
> citta
> > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s 
> efforts who
> > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the 
> Abhidhamma
> > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your 
> life. Should
> > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the 
> study of
> > >the Abhidhamma.
> > >
> > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental 
> phenomena, nama.
> > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for 
> everyone, no
> > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is 
another 
> nama, is
> > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a 
> beggar. 
> > >Hardness
> > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of 
> the table
> > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many 
difficult 
> terms of
> > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that 
> our life is
> > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the 
> Dhamma
> > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> 
> on 
> > >Robert�s
> > >Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
> > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very 
> gradually
> > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and 
rupa 
> are
> > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more 
> > >interesting.
> > >I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn 
> Sujin�s Survey
> > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma 
> Vipassana.
> > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
> > >complicated than you thought at first.
> > >
> > >With metta, Nina.
> > >
> > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about 
> her study 
> > >of
> > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and 
> abstract but
> > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also 
> like 
> > >Jaran's
> > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just 
> now. Hallo
> > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
> > >  I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some 
> people may
> > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any 
> question
> > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not 
> studied much
> > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never 
> enough, and
> > >this is for all of us.
> > >

 
5406 From: Antony 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Hey Dan after reading Sarahs post I just realised you might be 
reffering to  people posting here as CAW. I guess sometimes they can 
just be a bunch of old CAWS. 

Will you be posting "Discouraging (1.2)" for us?

In light of the lurking issue I think your first post is intersting 
to discuss. 

I don't know that there is any responsibility for the big CAWS to 
encourage and teach, although certainly that would be useful and 
potentialy beneficial. I don't think we should have to high of an 
expectation about what we will gain on the list. (If CAW aren't list 
based just ignore me) Having said that I refer back to my other post 
were I would hope being a member of this sangha of a kind is useful 
for as many people as possible, I am sure that is the spirit in which 
Jon and Sarah, Amara and Robert made there first posts.

Anyway I still think your first post is intersting to discuss and 
it's good that you raised the issue in the comprehensive way that you 
did, do you condider yourself a CAW, I'm more HAABOWHATL myself, 
thats a Hoping to Absorb Abhidhamma By Osmosis Whilst Hanging Around 
This List person :)

So lets here more, hopefully many can benefit.

antony brennan
LLL


--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Dan,
> 
> --- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends 
posted a short, almost
> despairing 
> > note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies.
> 
> I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be 
or aspire to be a CAW. I just
> try to share any comments according to my very limited 
understanding.
> 
> I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the 
real problem is the dosa
> conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony 
mentioned, character (or I'd say
> accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and 
for one person it will condition
> lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for 
another peson it can condition
> despair and aversion. Just as when  we are enjoying a buffet (a 
Hong Kong past-time) everyone
> selects different dishes. As we know, dosa will always find an 
object!
> 
> I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of 
course if we can learn better ways
> to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). 
In the end, however, it is the
> cittas and the intentions when we speak that count as we've 
discussed and of course we all
> misunderstand others' points of view sometimes. For me, like 
Antony, I never find these exchanges
> or discussions discouraging at all, even if they are my mistakes or 
misunderstandings that are
> revealed. I realise that it is different for other people though. 
You've also pointed out how
> people like myself  (as a prime candidate) may not have 
acknowledged or appreciated the role our
> posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I 
apologise. 
> 
> However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing 
and giving your viewpoints and
> saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder 
before the discouragement sets in
> or otherwise how is anyone to know?
> 
> Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details 
for now as I wanted to address
> these other points first.
> 
> Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your 
comments.
> 
> Sarah
> 

 
5407 From: robert 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:35pm
Subject: Fwd: knowing the moment

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick  
wrote:
I was re-reading your comments in Post 19521 "Re: Euthanasia." 
You mentioned;
<<. If the moment is known then doubt about  what is kusala and
what is 
akusala fades. The more akusala -even subtle clinging to
calmness or the idea 
of control - is seen as akusala the more that a turning away
from akusala 
occurs. One doesn't 
have to make resolutions then.>>

I wonder, could you help me out by expanding a little on how you
are using 
the term "knowing the moment"?  

And are you indicating that right action could unfold in some
spontaneous way 
from knowing the moment?
___________
Dear Paul,
I like the way you home in on delicate point even with the
merest hint. I was indeed suggesting that right action comes
about from knowing the moment correctly. let me elaborate:

Most of us when we first learn about Dhamma rearrange our lives
to reflect Dhammic principles. This is all well and good except
that for a lot of us there is a degree of tension and exertion
that is perhaps driven as much by an idea of control(i.e.self)
as it is by right view. 
There are different ways to keep sila -  because one thinks one
should, because one thinks it somehow leads to nibbana, because
one is afraid of the consequences if one doesn't, one doesn't
want other to think badly of one....the list goes on. However,
none of these are particulary rooted in wisdom.
Satipatthana, though, is the true resort for Bhikkhus and all
disciples of the Buddha. 

If there is more insight of the moment there can't be the same
degree of obsession with things as before. While satipattha is
sometimes misunderstood as being a simple type of knowing it is
actually a profound way of seeing that dispells
avijja(ignorance). By the development of satipatthana the
difference between concept and reality is known and this must
influence behaviour.
 For example, one sees a BMW car; for many in the world this
would be a source of envy and jealousy, or perhaps after seeing
it one has so much desire that they do all sorts of evil -
working at wrong liveilihood - to get the money to buy one. On
the other hand if colour is known as colour at the moment it
arises desire just doesn't arise. Of course, satipatthana cannot
arise just by will so often colour is not known and desire does
arise for different objects - but even glimpses of satipatthan
have an impact on behaviour. And this in a very natural,
no-stress way. 
When we were children we played with sandcastles and loved them
but now we feel nothing if we see the waves destroy one. We
don't have to tell ourselves "Oh sandcastles are impermanent we
shouldn't cry..." and in the same way the development of
satipatthana leads (ever so slowly) into detachment from the
khandas (the five aggregates).
Another example; someone insults us. Now being good buddhists we
might think to ourselves "OH, I shouldn't get angry" and reason
our way to calmness; or we might sit and watch our breath until
we cool down; or recite metta suttas.. All this is fine. But if
there is direct insight into sound at the moment it arises then
it is only sound and thus anger cannot arise; then one doesn't
have to try and stop it or anything. Satipatthana brings sila,
samadhi and panna (morality and concentration and wisdom )into
being at the same moment. As I said it is the true home of the
Bhikkhu and the disciple of the Buddha.
robert


--- End forwarded message ---

 
5408 From: Howard 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /

 
  Hi, Purnomo -

In a message dated 5/31/01 12:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Purnomo writes:


> I'm not agree what you said.
> How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I think The 
> Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing else. 
> The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve your 
> holy 
> life. May Those used to you and all.
> Thank, be happier, be better every day
> metta,
> 
> Purnomo
> 
> >From: Nina van Gorkom 
> > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /
> >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200
> >
> >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic
> >question: what is the Abhidhamma.
> >She wrote:
> ><If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & Abhidhamma
> ><books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy subject.What's
> ><Abhidhamma mostly about?
> >
> >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it here.
> >
> >Dear Dhamma friend,
> >
> >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and again you
> >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound to be 
> >like
> >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is generosity.
> >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. 
> >The
> >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the
> >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect.
> >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning would be
> >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by these
> >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on your own
> >inclination to what extent you want to study them.
> >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it,
> >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at different
> >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that when 
> >there
> >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they arise
> >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We use in
> >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests something lasting.
> >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
> >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing
> >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing
> >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a reality, it 
> >is
> >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences sound, it
> >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma.
> >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are mental
> >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not experience
> >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are physical
> >phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
> >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names to
> >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. We 
> >tend
> >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? Because 
> >we
> >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted views of them. 
> >We
> >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today.
> >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more understanding of
> >them. It can help us in daily life.
> >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act like
> >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are you 
> >not
> >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are moments
> >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types of cittas
> >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or are they
> >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are studying
> >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
> >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of citta
> >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s efforts who
> >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the Abhidhamma
> >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. Should
> >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the study of
> >the Abhidhamma.
> >
> >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental phenomena, nama.
> >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for everyone, no
> >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another nama, is
> >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. 
> >Hardness
> >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the table
> >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult terms of
> >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our life is
> >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the Dhamma
> >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> on 
> >Robert�s
> >Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
> >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very gradually
> >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa are
> >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more 
> >interesting.
> >I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn Sujin�s Survey
> >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web Abhidhamma Vipassana.
> >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
> >complicated than you thought at first.
> >
> >With metta, Nina.
> >
> >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her study 
> >of
> >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract but
> >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like 
> >Jaran's
> >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. Hallo
> >Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
> >  I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some people may
> >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any question
> >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not studied much
> >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, and
> >this is for all of us.
> 
===============================
       I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see it, Abhidhamma 
is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller were to confuse 
the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be deranged. Yet, 
there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for what it refers 
to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is concept, and, as 
any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate realities. 
However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in the 
apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The Abhidhamma 
seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a wonderful 
source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes one more instance 
of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The intellect, and 
intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve as helpful 
guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, and especially 
so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my perspective.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5409 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /

 
  Thank you Howard. Exactly so.
robert

> ===============================
>        I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see
> it, Abhidhamma 
> is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller
> were to confuse 
> the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be
> deranged. Yet, 
> there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for
> what it refers 
> to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is
> concept, and, as 
> any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate
> realities. 
> However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in
> the 
> apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The
> Abhidhamma 
> seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a
> wonderful 
> source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes
> one more instance 
> of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The
> intellect, and 
> intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve
> as helpful 
> guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality,
> and especially 
> so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my
> perspective.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                



 
5410 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Heart problem

 
  Dear Gayan, Num and Antony,
Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always
Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart:
Robert,
> 
> Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here
is the
> physical organ that is being spoken about?  Could it not be 
that "heart" is
> referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that
citta 
includes
> both mind and emotion?
> 
_______________________________
Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena)
and so 
is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this
in 
the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our
world). 
In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as
hadaya 
(heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They 
specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often
given.

It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for
citta) 
have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our
world) 
this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty),
whereas 
cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye,
ear, 
nose tongue body etc)are all indriya.
The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is
not 
contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or
weakness 
of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana).
This is 
contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter
in the 
eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the
same 
for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be
even more 
subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base.
robert




 
5411 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:32pm
Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma /

 
  Dear Howard,

Thanks for the useful comparison.  Another comparison is, for those drawn 
to the 4th-grade science teaching, the model (theory) and the realities.  
The model tells us what the realities might be and it may even tell us 
what to look for, not to look for, but we would never know the realities as=
 
they truly are just by studying the theory alone.

kom

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Purnomo -
> 
> In a message dated 5/31/01 12:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Purnomo writes:
> 
> 
> > I'm not agree what you said.
> > How could you say understand abhidhamma help your daily life. I 
think The 
> > Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most important and nothing 
else. 
> > The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not important to achieve 
your 
> > holy 
> > life. May Those used to you and all.
> > Thank, be happier, be better every day
> > metta,
> > 
> > Purnomo
> > 
> > >From: Nina van Gorkom 
> > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] what is the abhidhamma /
> > >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:01:55 +0200
> > >
> > >Dear group, I received off list from a Malaysian friend a very basic
> > >question: what is the Abhidhamma.
> > >She wrote:
> > ><If i'm not mistaken, you're the author of many a Dhamma & 
Abhidhamma
> > ><books.I've read  a page or two and its quite a heavy subject.What's
> > ><Abhidhamma mostly about?
> > >
> > >Since this question is interesting for all of us I like to answer it h=
ere.
> > >
> > >Dear Dhamma friend,
> > >
> > >The Abhidhamma helps you to understand your daily life. Time and 
again you
> > >see or hear and on account of what you see or hear there is bound 
to be 
> > >like
> > >or dislike. Or you are generous and gives things away, there is 
generosity.
> > >These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of 
Abhidhamma. 
> > >The
> > >Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it 
shows the
> > >conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effec=
t.
> > >Terms are used to explain about realities, but all book learning 
would be
> > >void if you do not verify in your own life the realities explained by =

these
> > >terms. You do not have to learn them by heart and it depends on 
your own
> > >inclination to what extent you want to study them.
> > >Would you like to know your mind? We find it difficult to analyse it,
> > >because it changes all the time. Is it not true that there are at 
different
> > >times generosity, anger or desire? The Abhidhamma teaches us that 
when 
> > >there
> > >is generosity there cannot be at the same time anger or desire, they 
arise
> > >at different moments. At each moment there is a different mind. We 
use in
> > >everyday language the word mind, but that term suggests 
something lasting.
> > >The word moment of consciousness (in Pali citta) is more precise.
> > >Each citta experiences something, it experiences an object. Seeing
> > >experiences what appears through the eyes, visible object. Hearing
> > >experiences what appears through the ears, sound. Seeing is a 
reality, it 
> > >is
> > >dhamma. Seeing does not experiences sound. Hearing experiences 
sound, it
> > >does not experience visible object. Hearing is a reality, it is dhamma=
.
> > >There are dhammas which know or experience an object, these are 
mental
> > >phenomena, or in Pali nama. There are dhammas which do not 
experience
> > >anything such as visible object, sound or hardness, these are 
physical
> > >phenomena, or in Pali rupa.
> > >You can verify this in your life and you do not need words or names 
to
> > >verify this, you can experience it. That is the study of Abhidhamma. 
We 
> > >tend
> > >to cling to an idea of my mind, we take it for self. Why is that? 
Because 
> > >we
> > >have always been ignorant of dhammas and we have distorted 
views of them. 
> > >We
> > >have been like that in the past and therefore we are like that today.
> > >But the study of dhammas is the condition to develop more 
understanding of
> > >them. It can help us in daily life.
> > >You may like to help others or give things away to them. Do you act 
like
> > >that without expecting anything for yourself, such as praise, or are 
you 
> > >not
> > >expecting anything? If we expect something for ourselves, there are 
moments
> > >of desire, unwholesome moments. We should find out which types 
of cittas
> > >arise in such situations, are they just pure, wholesome moments or 
are they
> > >unwholesome? If we find out more about such moments we are 
studying
> > >Abhidhamma. We do not need to remember terms.
> > >You are eating a meal, and when the food tastes good, what kind of 
citta
> > >arises? It may be attachment, but when you appreciate someone�s 
efforts who
> > >cooked the food there is a wholesome citta. You see that the 
Abhidhamma
> > >teaches many details, but these are of direct benefit for your life. 
Should
> > >we not find out more about ourselves? That is the purpose of the 
study of
> > >the Abhidhamma.
> > >
> > >Our life consists of physical phenomena, rupa, and mental 
phenomena, nama.
> > >These are real for everybody. The nama which sees is real for 
everyone, no
> > >matter it is the seeing of a dog or a man. Anger, which is another 
nama, is
> > >real for everyone, no matter it is the anger of a king or a beggar. 
> > >Hardness
> > >which is rupa, is real for everyone, no matter it is hardness of the 
table
> > >or hardness of your leg. We used to think by way of many difficult 
terms of
> > >our mind, and the world in which we live, but now we learn that our 
life is
> > >only nama and rupa. The late ven. Dhammadharo used to say < the 
Dhamma
> > >uncomplicates our life> and that is true. (See his <Be here now> on 
> > >Robert�s
> > >Web <Abhidhamma Vipassana>).
> > >You could begin with the two terms nama and rupa, and then very 
gradually
> > >you could learn more details. When you find out that nama and rupa 
are
> > >realities of daily life the study will be less burdensome, more 
> > >interesting.
> > >I could also recommend <Realities and Concepts> from Acharn Sujin
�s Survey
> > >of Paramattha Dhammas, see the Web Zolag or the Web 
Abhidhamma Vipassana.
> > >If you study just a little at a time you will see that it is less
> > >complicated than you thought at first.
> > >
> > >With metta, Nina.
> > >
> > >P.S. I wish to express my appreciation of Torie's remarks about her 
study 
> > >of
> > >the Abhdiamma, telling us that at first she found it dry and abstract =

but
> > >now she sees that it is helpful. I rejoice such remarks. I also like 
> > >Jaran's
> > >remarks that the real study of Abhidhamma is in daily life, just now. =

Hallo
> > >Jaran, so nice to hear from you.
> > >  I read in the posts about <lurkers>, but I think that some people 
may
> > >believe that their question is not good enough, too simple. Any 
question
> > >relating to the Dhamma is good, no matter whether one has not 
studied much
> > >or has studied already a little more. Anyway, study is never enough, 
and
> > >this is for all of us.
> > 
> ===============================
>        I think that Nina's exposition is wonderful! As I see it, Abhidham=
ma 
> is an intellectual map. If, when going somewhere, a traveller were to 
confuse 
> the map with the actual network of roadways, he/she would be 
deranged. Yet, 
> there is always a danger for us humans of mistaking a map for what it 
refers 
> to. The material of the intellect, and of the Abhidhamma, is concept, 
and, as 
> any Abhidhammika will say, conceptual objects are not ultimate 
realities. 
> However, the concepts dealt with in Abhidhamma are grounded in the 
> apprehension of realities and, indirectly, point to them. The 
Abhidhamma 
> seems to be a very well drawn map. When used properly, it is a 
wonderful 
> source ofunderstanding. When misused, it simply constitutes one more 
instance 
> of getting caught in dry, isolated intellectualism. The intellect, and 
> intellectual tools, if kept in their proper place, can serve as helpful 
> guides, but it is always the direct apprehension of reality, and especial=
ly 
> so on the Buddha's path, which is chief. This is my perspective.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a 
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a=
 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)               =
     


 
5412 From: selamat   
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Dear rikpa21.
Anumodana for your great effort.
May you ever grow in the Dhamma.

selamat rodjali

----- Original Message -----
From: <Erik>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:38 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project


>
> Hi all,
>
> As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am presently
> creating a computerized model of key elements and their relations
> (paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance, along
> with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes this
> unique, I think.
>
> My feeling, from preliminary systems analysis, is that this is
> feasible, and will yield interesting results in terms of analysis of
> dhammas using the Abhidhamma as a canonical reference.
>
> The current data model is broken out as follows: all terms in this
> model are "atoms," or the smallest meaning-units we can work with,
> for example, the term "avijja."
>
> For example, an entry with attributes, using "avijja" as an example,
> looks like:
>
> Entry: "avijja":
>
> 1. definitions (multi-language support)
>   a. Pali
>      I. literal term: avijja
>   b. English
>      I. literal term: ignorance
>     II. Ignorance that conceives of self-essence
>
> (note: all definitions have volume and paragraph references as well:
> ex. "MN.118" or "Vis. XX.10", meaning that all definitions will have
> a hyperlink to the source of the definition for reference if
> available).
>
> 2. synonyms
>   a. moha
>
> 3. relations (paccaya)
>   a. root condition for sankhara
>   b. prenascence condition for sankhara
>
> 4. categories (any number of arbitrary categories)
>   a. paticca samuppada
>
> 5. groups
>   a. akusala
>
> As this entry shows, the term "avijja" contains attributes like
> "definitions," which can be in any language, "synonyms," for
> thesaurus-like lookups, and most important, "relations": how "avijja"
> is related to other conceptual "atoms" (not in the Vaisesika sense!)
> via relations.
>
> Modeling these relations programatically means it should be possible
> to "surf" from one relation to the next, much as one navigates the
> Web, through hyperlinking. The idea is to create a hyperlinked
> reference of key terms from the Dhammasangani and Patthana. I have
> already constructed a quick and dirty prototype of this in CSharp
> (the new MS programming language), but found that it came up short. I
> have chosen to implement the protptype using generic Common LISP--an
> artifial intelligence programming language designed for managing
> lists and categories, which is very portable across computing
> architectures and has a simple, powerful, and very flexible
> grammar (lambda functions for dynamic rule execution, example).
>
> One aim is to allow the user of this application to create custom
> queries (natural language would be a nice goal, and is well-supported
> in LISP) that navigate from one connection to the next using
> specific "rules," such as "show me all atoms that belong to the
> akusala group." Or, "show me all the parallel factors associate with
> viriyindriya."
>
> Another goal is to be able to take these data structures and
> represent them visually, for example, displaying a tree of the
> primary Abhidhamma categories. Down the road, if time permits, a
> three-dimensional "hyperbrowser" for Abhidhamma concepts may be
> possible.
>
> As I have been considering this project, a number of goals have
> presented themselves:
>
> 1. THE DHAMMA MUST BE FREE. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO MACCARIYA, EVER, with
> regard to sharing the Dhamma, as some organizations do (which is
> incomprehensible to me). It must also be universally accessible, via
> the Web, to allow anyone to browse Abhidhamma/Dhamma categories and
> definitions and relations from the comfort of their own homes.
>
> 2. It must allow for collaboration. The job of inputting definitions
> is tedious, and no one person in one lifetime can ever do this
> justice. Collaborators MUST be able to edit the database from the
> Web, to submit or modify entries, etc. Another important reason for
> this is that its aim is to provide multi-language support. Language-
> specific editors need to be able to create references to source texts
> in a given language, as well as add definitions. There is no limit on
> the number of languages this will support. Each "atom" can have
> definitions if Sanskrit, English, French, etc.
>
> 3. It should be able to support concept-spaces across Canons, e.g.
> the terms & concepts in the Tipitaka Abhidhamma should be tied to
> terms and references from the Abhidharmakosa. This would allow for
> cross-referencing between versions and definitions as they appear.
> This will GREATLY facilitate the process of translation, both of the
> Tibetan Kanjur & Tenjur as well as any remaining untranslated
> components of the Abhidhamma. This was my original motivation: to
> provide a concordance and reference, with term hyperlinking. This is
> something I began to explore when working on the Asian Classics Input
> Project (http://www.asianclassics.org/), which was begun by Geshe
> Michael Roach to digitally input all the key texts from the Tibetan
> Canon (see: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.08/dharma_pr.html).
>
> 4. The structural relations will allow for MUCH interesting
> processing, perhaps even a "meditation advisor" expoert system, which
> like the simple Artifial Intelligence (AI) program Eliza, could ask a
> series of questions and provide feedback from the Abhidhamma, using
> things like relations (paccaya) that show the necessity of certain
> path-factors to meditation, and how to counteract nivaranas one seems
> to have present (based on the advisor's questions). This is just one
> possibility--perhaps a bit hokey--but the potential of computational
> analysis on relations among "atoms" shuold hopefully be clear.
>
> Areas I need some help in:
>
> I am posting this here in hopes that some here can take a look at
> the "atom" definition and see if I'm missing anything. I think a
> combination of attributes and relations hould be enough to define
> an "atom."
>
> Also, at present, given I only have the Visuddimagga as a guide, the
> list of relations there simply won't cut it given the scope of the
> Patthana, for example. To that end, does anyone here have a copy of
> the BUDSIR (from Manidol U.) of ALL the Pali Tipitaka digitized I
> could download? I know it's big (70+M), but I have DSL. I need a core
> reference so I can begin inputting some core definitions from the
> Patthana, if possible.
>
> Comments, suggestions, or digital copies of the Canon in Pali and
> English would all be greatly appreciated. If there is a digital
> version of even the Visuddhimagga and a Pali dictionary it would be a
> great start.
>


 
5413 From: Antony 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 6:15am
Subject: Re: Heart problem

 
  In the book I mentioned the premise is that the phyisical organ, the 
heart, would appear to think, to motivate us  and to communicate with 
OUR head snd other hearts.

In the book they talke about electromagnetic experiments where 
someone enters a room without the subject in the room knowing but the 
subjects heart responds the way it does when people knowingly meet. 
The book claims that the eloctromagnetic pulese between people seem 
to occur in such a way as to intimate that they are pulsing back and 
forth to each other. The author goes so far as to say that our hearts 
are sending messages out to the world. It's abit lke the way dolphins 
and wales communicate but instead of sound it is electromagnetic 
pulses. Ther eis a lot of study abut the chemico-electric activity in 
the brain and how that can be shown to be related to our behaviour 
and thinking, the book gived evidence to support the claim that there 
is MORE electromagnetic phenomena occuring in the heart than in the 
brain.  

I remember the Native American quote that after having dealt with 
white people for some time one cheif said something like We know 
these people are crazy because they think that we are living in our 
heads, when we KNOW we are living in our heart. 

INteresting anyway

antony brennan


--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Gayan, Num and Antony,
> Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always
> Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart:
> Robert,
> > 
> > Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here
> is the
> > physical organ that is being spoken about?  Could it not be 
> that "heart" is
> > referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that
> citta 
> includes
> > both mind and emotion?
> > 
> _______________________________
> Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena)
> and so 
> is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this
> in 
> the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our
> world). 
> In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as
> hadaya 
> (heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They 
> specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often
> given.
> 
> It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for
> citta) 
> have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our
> world) 
> this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty),
> whereas 
> cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye,
> ear, 
> nose tongue body etc)are all indriya.
> The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is
> not 
> contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or
> weakness 
> of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana).
> This is 
> contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter
> in the 
> eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the
> same 
> for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be
> even more 
> subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base.
> robert
> 

 
5414 From: Herman 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: Alzheimers

 
  Hi everyone,

Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of us, 
being less distracted by memories?

Knowing the moment, does it require the past?

Can there be panna without sanna?

I'm asking because I do not know.

Regards

Herman

 
5415 From: Antony 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Alzheimers

 
  hey there Herman

the answer is no they do not.

People with alzheimers lead a life tortured by there inability to 
remember anything. Eventually their brains aren't working much at all 
and they would die like a newborn child would die with no-one to feed 
them and care for them.

As things spiral toward the bitter end they suffer, I believe first a 
great disorientation as the past seems as if it is here. A friend of 
mines father thinks that his wife is not hos wife and that he is not 
in his own home and that his "girl" the woman his wife was years ago 
is waiting somewhere for him and he longs to go and be with her. 
Packs his bags and all. He will eventually forget al his family and 
forget to do anything, he will not be able to dress or eat or go to 
the toilet. (he'll begin to do that in his pants.

It is as you can imagine an awful process which is very, very 
disturbing for the victim and  the family. Terrifying for all.

nice thought though about not being distracted by thoughts. 
Unfortunatley I have known two friends who's family members have 
suffered this fate and it is awful. 


I don't know about panna without sanna. but there's some really good 
old CAWs here he do

--- Herman wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of us, 
> being less distracted by memories?
> 
> Knowing the moment, does it require the past?
> 
> Can there be panna without sanna?
> 
> I'm asking because I do not know.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Herman

 
5416 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alzheimers

 
  Dear Herman,
I like these questions as I've wondered the same thing myself.
As Antony pointed out Alzheimers is no fun.

Still I would give some other thoughts.
--- Herman wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of
> us, 
> being less distracted by memories?
______________
it is not the memories really, that distract but the attachment
or aversion to them.`Memories are just thinking taking a
concept; and thus insight into: thinking or sanna, or the
underlying lobha or dosa or avijja that occurs at these moments
can occur.



> 
> Knowing the moment, does it require the past?


___________________
I would say perhaps not. If there have been  accumulations of
genuine satipatthana at a level beyond the conceptual
understanding of anatta; and if satipatthana has become habitual
then why should it not continue even if memory has deteriorated.

One could wonder though if someone who had this degree of
insight would suffer the profound loss of memory that Antony
detailed- this I don't know.

> 
> Can there be panna without sanna?

___________

Sanna arise with every citta thus even if there is the complete
loss of  conventional memory sanna is arising. 

I know what you mean though. Can panna arise if there is no
memory of the Dhamma? My answer is above 
> 
> I'm asking because I do not know.
______

So I don't know either. Just my speculation above.
robert



 
5417 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Dear Erik,
I always wondered what a boy from salt-lake city would be like
if he had right view. I'm always impressed by the energy and
sincerity of the Christians I meet from those parts. Well, now I
know. You're a real inspiration. I feel overwhelmed already with
work but if I see a way to help I'll try.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> As a part of my process of learning the Abhidhamma I am
> presently 
> creating a computerized model of key elements and their
> relations 
> (paccaya). This is a combination of dictionary, concordance,
> along 
> with relations. The "relations" (paccaya) part is what makes
> this 
> 


 
5418 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:15pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [antony]

 
  Dear Antony,
Thanks for your refreshing and thoughtful post. I enjoy hearing your 
insights. I do want to respond (or 
echo?) some of your points directly as well.

Antony:
"In my own limited understanding it seems like these things are a 
matter of degree. Of course in the 
beginning the obstacles seem great but the more you learn by 
observation of them and implementing the 
precepts and the eightfold path the lesser of an obstacle they become 
due to the skillfulness you 
develop in knowing them, recognising them, developing a better way of 
being that stops feeding them, 
seeing into what they are and developing ways that they have less 
capacity to control." 

Dan:
This sounds about right. The obstacles (nivarana) are indeed great in 
the beginning. They remain great 
for some time. Indeed, viewed from another angle, the same cetasikas 
that arise as "nivarana" are 
fetters (samyojana). Sceptical doubt remains a fetter and obstacle 
until the stage of sotapanna is 
reached. Sense desire and ill-will remain fetters and obstacles until 
the stage of anagami, while 
restlessness&worry and sloth&torpor remain until arahatship. 
 
Antony:
"I think discouragement is a significant factor in developing Dhamma 
Practice."

Dan: 
This is also true to a certain extent. Discouragement is a flavor of 
dosa, which is a fetter and 
obstacle. I find this particular flavor of dosa to be much less of a 
problem for me than some of the 
other flavors. But for other people, discouragement-flavored dosa may 
well be more of an object. 

Antony:
"Funny thing is that I am usually a little elated to find I have had 
some wrong view or understanding. I 
feel like I must be developing toward a better understanding if I have 
to deconstruct something I have 
been hanging on to."

Dan:
It certainly is refreshing to discover, pinpoint, understand, realize, 
see some wrong view or 
understanding that is pointed out and abandoned! This must be so 
because wrong view is the root of so 
much suffering.

 
5419 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:17pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)[Antony]

 
  Hi Antony,
You crack me up!

> Hey Dan after reading Sarahs post I just realised you might be 
> reffering to  people posting here as CAW. I guess sometimes they can 
> just be a bunch of old CAWS. 
> 
> Will you be posting "Discouraging (1.2)" for us?

If I don't, it will be because I am too sick or too far behind in my 
work to get it done. It won't be because I'm lurking. (For the most 
part, when I read, I post too).

> I don't know that there is any responsibility for the big CAWS to 
> encourage and teach, although certainly that would be useful and 
> potentialy beneficial. I don't think we should have to high of an 
> expectation about what we will gain on the list. (If CAW aren't list 
> based just ignore me) Having said that I refer back to my other post 
> were I would hope being a member of this sangha of a kind is useful 
> for as many people as possible, I am sure that is the spirit in 
which 
> Jon and Sarah, Amara and Robert made there first posts.

"Big CAW's"? Hmmmm... This is starting to get into finer distinctions 
than I'M comfortable with! But when it comes to defining 
responsibilities for the nebulous categories that we come up, that is, 
shall we say, not my responsibility!
 
> Anyway I still think your first post is intersting to discuss and 
> it's good that you raised the issue in the comprehensive way that 
you 
> did, do you condider yourself a CAW, I'm more HAABOWHATL myself, 
> thats a Hoping to Absorb Abhidhamma By Osmosis Whilst Hanging Around 
> This List person :)

Being a teacher, I'm not a big proponent of the "learning by osmosis" 
theory. Instead: study, study, study, and practice, practice, 
practice.

> So lets here more, hopefully many can benefit.

Amen! (or is it Saadhu!)

Dan

 
5420 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for your warm and compassionate post. I appreciate your 
kindness and always-readiness to help. I do want to respond to some of 
your comments directly, though.

> I probably can't say much to help. I certainly don't pretend to be 
or aspire to be a CAW. 

"CAW" is certainly a lofty title, and I really do believe that you do 
not aspire to be one, and that you don't aspire to not to be one. You 
are much more interested in learning what you can and helping whenever 
you have the opportunity. This is commendable. 

> I think we all know that when we feel despairing or discouraged the 
real problem is the dosa
> conditioned by lobha for having things another way. As Antony 
mentioned, character (or I'd say
> accumulations) are very different. We may read the same post and for 
one person it will condition
> lobha, for another some useful reflection of even awareness and for 
another peson it can condition
> despair and aversion. 

This is most certainly true.

> I suppose we all try to help each other as best we can and of course 
if we can learn better ways
> to speak it's always useful (as Joyce mentioned recently, I think). 
In the end, however, it is the
> cittas and the intentions when we speak that count...

It may well be true that it is the cetana that counts, and that good 
intentions have good results. However, the true intention is so easily 
cloaked in lobha, dosa, or moha that it is not enough to just think 
about the intention and to rest easy because we think we have good 
intentions. Where is the dosa, lobha, moha? Did they root enough of 
the cittas to make the overall effect of the speech or thought or 
action akusala? 

> You've also pointed out how
> people like myself  (as a prime candidate) may not have acknowledged 
or appreciated the role our
> posts have had as a condition for discouragement. For this I 
apologise. 

I must be missing something because I don't see anything that you've 
done that needs an apology. As you've said, you are just trying to 
help people think about and understand Dhamma. I believe you.

> However, Dan, you've always been more than capable of discussing and 
giving your viewpoints and
> saying when you don't agree. Please just shout sooner and louder 
before the discouragement sets in
> or otherwise how is anyone to know?

Hmmm.... Here's where there is a confusion between "being discouraged" 
and finding someone's writing discouraging. I'm not feeling 
discouraged at all. But I can see how someone who has studied Dhamma 
for decades and has an intricate knowledge of the suttas, a good 
working knowledge of Abhidhamma, a well-developed meditation practice, 
is interested in learning Dhamma, discussing Dhamma, understanding 
Dhamma might find something that obscures Dhamma and contradicts 
Dhamma in the name of Dhamma discouraging. Would they be discouraged? 
Yes, if they take Dhamma as not-Dhamma or not-Dhamma as Dhamma. But 
when there is understanding of Dhamma, Dhamma is encouraging, while 
not-Dhamma does not give rise to discouragement even though the sound 
of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa).

> Anyway, good to see you back in action. I'm not going into details 
for now as I wanted to address
> these other points first.
> 
> Hope you're getting better and thanks again for sharing your 
comments.

Thanks for you encouragement. I'm only in limited action now because 
I've had a fever for over a week (usually mild but always present). I 
am appreciating greatly even this limited action because there is 
always the immediate possibility of an extended out-of-action time.

I do hope to get to "Discouraging (1.2)" soon!

Dan

 
5421 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:19pm
Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Hi Erik,
Great project idea! Best wishes to you. You will certainly learn a 
lot, and hopefully you will be able to help others learn just as much. 
Thanks.

Dan

 
5422 From: Gayan Karunaratne   
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:38pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Dear Erik,

	This sounds like a very interesting project!!

It wouldbe really great to see Eliza answering someone's Dhamma questions.

Sometime back I did some research on this Eliza, and theres a way to upload
the data into Eliza so the questions and answers can be customized.(from the
standard queries that eliza normally handles )

One suggestion is -> XML would be a great support for the
hyperdhammabrowser[ the UI for the system ], as a good dhammaXML schema
would provide easy interpretation of the results generated. 

Way to go Erik!

Regards.

 
5423 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:30pm
Subject: A Name for Your Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Hi, Erik -

       Yours is an amazing project! I wish you great success with it. 
       It occurs to me that with all the interconnections involved among the 
various concepts, an apt name for your system might be 'Indra's Net'. This 
would have the double advantage of reflecting the nature of the system and 
also setting the teeth of us Theravadins on edge! ;-))

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5424 From: Num 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Hi Erik,

First of all, thanks for your input in cetasika question. Appriciate.      I 
thought about responding to the issue of using MDMA, PCP, LSD ect. as well, 
but my time restraint is my limit. I can say that I not agree with it.

Anomodhana in your project. I have CD Tipitaka by Mahidol Univ but it's in 
Thai not a Ramanized Pali.  I don't think you can read Thai. If you can let 
me know.

Num



 
5425 From: Num 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alzheimers

 
  Hi Herman,

 Quick response.   Alzheimer disease is characterized not only by memory 
problem.  There a lot more requirements to Dx this disease, memory problem 
alone is not Alzheimer.    There also need further higher cognitive 
impairments such as aphasia(language impairment), apraxia (motor impairment), 
agnosia (recognition impairment) and impairment in executive function i.e 
planning, organizing, sequencing or abstracting.

Their ability to focus or concentrate is severely affected as well.  So I 
don't think that is better.   Mind and citta are very complicated phenomena.  

Best wishes,

Num



 
5426 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:18am
Subject: Abhidhamma and Noble Truths

 
   Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma /
 Purnomo wrote:

I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help
your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most
important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not
important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank,
be happier, be better every day metta,
Purnomo

Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep.
You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond our
daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the
essence of the Buddha�s teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to  people  so
that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble
Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble
Truths?
The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright
understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We see
and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account
of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise
already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit bad
deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is
Abhidhamma.
Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us
off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that
people could develop understanding of their life. We think of <myself> and
other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The
Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no
self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been
cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there
are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears,
nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who
experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just
sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past
kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant
object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala
kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma
teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life
arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been
developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only
elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa.
You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. The
Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words
adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the
truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and
the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors.
We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic
understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to
read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends on
the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is
Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the
monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The
Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of
the Buddha. 
Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha,
suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away
of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is
dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other
realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a
time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long
process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. Seeing
arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible object
and hearing sound;  seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the
earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different
conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the
teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the
Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of
understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this moment.
This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The
practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of
satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of direct
understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of
the four noble Truths.
The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the
condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the Dependant
Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our
going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We
cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the
four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana,
can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but
this is a long process.
If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of questioning.
With metta, Nina van Gorkom.

 
5427 From: Num 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths

 
  Hi Nina,

I read your mail during my lunch.  Hard not to respond.  I really appreciate 
reading your response in the mail. Just reading it made me feel really good.

Hope seeing you more.

Anumodhana.

Num



 
5428 From: Tori Korshak   
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths

 
  Dear Nina,

Thank you for this very clear explanation.

Metta,
Victoria



At 07:18 PM 6/1/01 +0200, you wrote:
>   Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma /
>  Purnomo wrote:
>
>I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help
>your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most
>important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not
>important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank,
>be happier, be better every day metta,
>Purnomo
>
>Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep.
>You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond our
>daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the
>essence of the Buddha�s teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to  people  so
>that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble
>Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble
>Truths?
>The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright
>understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We see
>and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account
>of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise
>already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit bad
>deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is
>Abhidhamma.
>Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us
>off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that
>people could develop understanding of their life. We think of <myself> and
>other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The
>Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no
>self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been
>cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there
>are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears,
>nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who
>experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just
>sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past
>kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant
>object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala
>kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma
>teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life
>arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been
>developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only
>elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa.
>You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. The
>Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words
>adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the
>truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and
>the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors.
>We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic
>understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to
>read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends on
>the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is
>Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the
>monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The
>Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of
>the Buddha.
>Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha,
>suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away
>of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is
>dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other
>realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a
>time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long
>process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. Seeing
>arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible object
>and hearing sound;  seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the
>earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different
>conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the
>teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the
>Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of
>understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this moment.
>This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The
>practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of
>satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of direct
>understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of
>the four noble Truths.
>The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the
>condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the Dependant
>Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our
>going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We
>cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the
>four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana,
>can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but
>this is a long process.
>If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of questioning.
>With metta, Nina van Gorkom.
>

 
5429 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:31am
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Dear Dan,

--- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa).
> 

You may mean "dukkha" needs not give rise to dosa.  Domanassa 
always arise with dosa and they mutually supports each other.

kom

 
 
5430 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 8:06am
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Kom]

 
  Oops! Thanks, Kom. You are of course right. 

So what's the Pali word for "bad news"? Unpleasant bodily feeling 
(dukkha) is defined as unpleasant according to what the regular, 
everyday person would think it is. What, then, of news that the 
regular, everyday person would think of as bad? E.g., the untimely 
death by violence of one's child or parent or teacher. Like 
unpleasant bodily sensation, this need not be met with dosa. Hearing 
of the death, the violence, etc., the unliberated mind forms concepts 
of "loved one", "death", "violence" Dosa then arises because the news 
is "bad." But defining "pleasant" and "unpleasant" MENTAL sensation 
in terms of what the common wordling would think of as "unpleasant", 
then "untimely death of a loved one by violence" would be unpleasant 
mental sensation like hitting the thumb with a hammer would be 
unpleasant bodily sensation. But "domanassa" doesn't apply. What does?

Dan

> --- "Dan Dalthorp"  wrote:
> > of it is discouraging (domanassa need not give rise to dosa).
> > 
> 
> You may mean "dukkha" needs not give rise to dosa.  Domanassa 
> always arise with dosa and they mutually supports each other.
> 
> kom

 
5431 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Dan

Thanks for your post on the hindrances.  My apologies for being slow in giving my
comments.

Actually I think we are a lot closer on this subject than might at first sight
appear.  For example, I'm sure you would agree that --
-  The hindrances are kinds of akusala that are particular obstacles to the
development of the jhanas
-  They are temporarily suppressed/suspended by one who enters the first jhana.
-  They are eradicated only on the attainment of the various stages of enlightenment
- the hindrance of doubt is eradicated on the attainment of sotapanna-ship and the
final hindrances of sloth & torpor and restlessness at arahatship.

Where we differ, I think, is the extent to which they should be regarded as
particular obstacles to the development of insight, in the way that they are
particular obstacles to the development of jhana.

I would like to re-post something from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and commentary
which I mentioned in a post to Howard recently.  This is from Chapter VII of the
Ven. Narada/Bhikkhu Bodhi translation

"#8:  Six hindrances:  the hindrances of (1) sensual desire, (2) ill will, (3) sloth
and torpor, (4) restlessness and worry, (5) doubt, (6) ignorance.

Guide to #8:  The hindrances are so called because they obstruct the way to a
heavenly rebirth and to the attainment of Nibbana.  According to the commentary the
hindrances are mental factors which prevent unarisen wholesome states from arising
and which do not allow arisen wholesome states to endure.  The first five hindrances
are the major obstacles to the attainment of the jhaanas, the sixth hindrance is the
major obstacle to the arising of wisdom." [ends]

As Howard pointed out, the passage says that the (usual) 5 hindrances are the
*major* obstacle to the jhanas, while ignorance is the *major* obstacle to the
arising of wisdom.  This doesn't mean that the 5 hindrances are of no consequence in
the development of satipatthana.  It is said in a number of suttas that they
'weaken' insight.  It is I suppose a question of emphasis.

Take for example the reference from the Visuddhimagga quoted in your post.  That is
part of a reference beginning at XXII 32 dealing with the �States Associated with
the Path�.  One group of such states are �the kinds of states that ought to be
abandoned�, and these are set out at par. 47 of the same chapter.  They comprise
�the states called fetters, defilements, wrongnesses, worldly states, kinds of
avarice, perversions, ties, bad ways, cankers, floods, bonds, *hindrances*,
adherences, clingings, inherent tendencies, stains, unprofitable courses of action,
and unprofitable thought-arisings�.

Of course, there is a considerable amount of overlap among these various categories
of akusala dhammas, but the point is that the hindrances are one among many when it
comes to vipassana.

But whatever interpretation on this point is the correct one, there is a far more
crucial issue, and that is the relevance of all this to the development of the path.
 We may find there is somewhat less agreement between us on this question!

Antony in his useful and perceptive post mentioned the need to stop �feeding� the
hindrances.  I happened to come across a sutta dealing with this very point (AN X,
61 & 62).  It gives a series of 10 good and 10 bad factors each of which is the
nutriment for one of the other factors (�nutriment� here is the translation of
�ahaara� = 'food', although its true meaning is given as �strong support� in this
context).

First, there is the series of factors that are responsible for our entrenched
craving for becoming.  It goes like this (I paraphrase slightly, from the Wisdom
Publications version of the AN selection)--

- Craving for becoming has ignorance as its nutriment
- Ignorance has the 5 hindrances as its nutriment
- The 5 hindrances have the 3 ways of wrong conduct as their nutriment
- The 3 ways of wrong conduct have lack of sense restraint as their nutriment
- Lack of sense restraint has lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension as its
nutriment
- Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension has improper attention as its
nutriment
- Improper attention has lack of faith as its nutriment
- Lack of faith has listening to wrong teachings as its nutriment
- Listening to wrong teachings has association with bad people as its nutriment

The second series gives the factors leading to liberation by supreme knowledge. 
These are the factors that are the opposites, or countervailing measures, to those
in the first series.  It goes like this�

- Liberation by supreme knowledge has the 7 factors of enlightenment as its
nutriment
- The 7 factors of enlightenment have the 4 foundations of mindfulness as their
nutriment
- The 4 foundations of mindfulness have the 3 ways of good conduct as their
nutriment
- The 3 ways of good conduct have restraint of the senses as their nutriment
- Restraint of the senses has mindfulness and clear comprehension as its nutriment
- Mindfulness and clear comprehension has proper attention as its nutriment
- Proper attention has faith as its nutriment
- Faith has listening to true Dhamma as its nutriment
- Listening to true Dhamma has association with superior people as its nutriment.

Knowing which are the qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to
more craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome.

Dan, I do hope the pneumonia is under control and that you are making a good
recovery.

Looking forward to more discussion on this and/or Discouraging 2

Jon

--- Dan wrote: > Awhile back, one of our dsg friends posted a
short, almost despairing 
> note about how discouraged he was feeling in his dhamma studies. At 
> the time, I thought each of his twelve points was a sharp observation 
> about the tone of some familiar, contemporary Abhidhamma writers' 
> (CAW) comments and views. He has since stopped posting to the list. I 
> don't know exactly what his comments were about, but I do know they 
> are very similar to the thoughts I have when reading CAW's and very 
> different from the uplifting, encouraging thoughts I have from 
> reading Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta, Abhidhamma). Since our friend's 
> famous post, several comments from CAW's have seemed to miss the mark 
> about why someone would find their writing discouraging. From my 
> memory, some of the comments have been things like: "Oh, no, Dhamma 
> is uplifting, but it takes courage to face it." The comments seem to 
> betray a confusion between "being discouraged" and "finding someone's 
> writing discouraging", and between "a CAW's writing" and "Buddha's 
> Dhamma." I never find the suttas or Abhidhamma discouraging, but I 
> can't say the same for CAW's. What is the difference? I think April's 
> despairing post from our friend outlined the points very clearly. I'd 
> like to take his outline and expand on it with my own examples. 
> Please note that my examples may well have nothing to do with what 
> our friend was thinking when he wrote his post and only represent my 
> understanding. 
> 
> But first, what exactly is a CAW? I'm going to leave the term 
> undefined for now because the comments I will quote will be 
> recognizable to most, and I do not want to prejudice those who don't 
> recognize the comments.
> 
> Discouraging 1.1: "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood 
> about the Dhamma is completely wrong." An early lesson in Dhamma is 
> that sensual desire (kamacchanda), ill-will (byapada), sloth and 
> torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca), 
> and sceptical doubt (vicikiccha) are hindrances (nivarana) to 
> spiritual development, both calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana). 
> The suttas and Abhidhamma often refer to the nivarana as obstacles to 
> overcome to attain jhana, and I don't think there would be a CAW in 
> disagreement there. But they are also obstacles to insight, as is 
> clear from both reason and practice. But is that clarity simply 
> micchaditthi (wrong view)? 
> 
> Some CAW's hold this view: "The nivarana that must be overcome in 
> order to attain jhana should not be regarded as the same nivarana 
> that need to be overcome in order to attain enlightenment. The 
> attainments/goals of the 2 kinds of development are quite different, 
> and so the conditions for that development and the obstacles to it 
> are also quite different.  The overcoming of the nivarana in the 
> attainment of jhana is not necessarily a condition for their being 
> overcome in the context of insight." Does this really say that the 
> nivarana are not obstacles to insight? Another CAW chimes in: "The 
> only hindrance [to satipatthana] is the last one, ignorance. The 
> other hindrances are to the development of samatha only."
> 
> This certainly goes against my experience, understanding, and 
> impression of my study and practice. How does it square with the 
> Buddha's Dhamma? After reading, contemplation, reflection, the CAW's 
> views do appear to be in contradiction. 
> 
> First, from Vissudhimagga (XXII, 57, Nyanamoli trans.): "The 
> hindrances are the five, namely lust [ill-will, sloth and torpor, 
> restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt], in the sense of 
> obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from 
> consciousness." This sure makes it sound like the nivarana are 
> obstacles and hindrances to satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom 
> because satipatthana, vipassana, and wisdom require clear vision of 
> reality and the hindrances block that clear vision.
> 
> Was Buddhagosa just overreaching here, putting his own corrupt view 
> on the matter? I don't think so because everything else I've read of 
> his is such a reliable reflection of Buddha's Dhamma that I can't 
> help but think he's right here too. In any case, let's move on to the 
> suttas for confirmation.
> 
> AN 5:51: [Referring to the five nivarana]: "There are five 
> impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify 
> insight�.Without having overcome these five, it is impossible for a 
> monk whose insight thus lacks strength and power, to know his own 
> true good, the good of others, and the bood of both; nor will he be 
> capable of realizing that superhuman state of distinctive 
> achievement, the knowledge and vision enabling the attainment of 
> sanctity. But if a monk has overcome these five impediments and 
> hindrances, these overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight, then 
> it is possible that, with his strong insight, he can know his own 
> true good�" This is pretty unambiguous: The familiar five nivarana 
> are impediments and hindrances to strong insight.
> 
> In fact, Vibhanga appears to go even a step further: In the context 
> of attaining jhana, Vibhanaga (508, U Thittila trans.) 
> states: "Abandoning these five hindrances (that are) mental 
> corruptions and attenuation of wisdom, he, aloof from sense 
> pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in the first 
> jhana�" As for the nivarana being the "attenuation of wisdom," 
> Vibhanga continues (563): "'Attenuation of wisdom' means: Because of 
> these five hindrances wisdom that has not arisen does not arise, also 
> wisdom that has arisen ceases. Therefore this is called `attenuation 
> of wisdom'." This seems to say that by that very attenuation of 
> wisdom, the nivarana prevent the establishment of jhana. 
> 
> In this case, the CAW's statements that the nivarana are not 
> obstacles to insight seem to be very much at odds with Buddha's 
> Dhamma as expressed in the suttas, commentaries, and abhidhamma.
> 
> Is it any wonder that after reading CAW's someone might get the idea 
> that "Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma 
> is completely wrong"? 
> 
> This is just one example that might be interesting to discuss. I will 
> write about more examples soon, health permitting (the pneumonia has 
> returned).
> 



 
5432 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Hi Jon,
I have very little time right now, so I'll limit myself to a few 
quick comments. The question about the extent to which the hindrances 
are obstacles to insight is a crucial one, so it is important to get 
it right. Your post was very helpful in this regard, especially your 
summaries of AN X, 61 & 62.

That they are particular obstacles to insight is fairly clear, both 
in the sense of weakening insight [granted] and "...in the sense of 
obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from consciousness" 
[Vism. XXII, 57]. 

As you stated, the question now is how to proceed. You have 
anticipated my "Discouraging 1.2" [not "Discouraging 2", though, 
which will deal with our friends second point instead of a second 
example of his first point]. You wrote: "Knowing which are the 
qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more 
craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome." How 
to know them? Yes, of course we can read about them and think about 
them, but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even 
moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting 
can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is 
samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', 
three weeks', four weeks' retreat, or at the level of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 
4th jhana, this is an effective way to temporarily overcome the 
hindrances to a degree necessary for insight to arise. Of course, I 
think we can agree that the temporary suppression of the hindrances 
does not mean that insight NECESSARILY arises, only that it can 
enhance conditions for its arising.

I don't see how your quote from BB's CMA is relevant. It does not 
address the issue of whether or how or to what extent the hindrances 
are obstacles to insight. Also, that "ignorance is the major obstacle 
to wisdom" is virtually a tautology--not all that helpful.

> Dan, I do hope the pneumonia is under control and that you are 
making a good
> recovery.

I do too, but it will be some time before we know.

I have run completely out of time. See you!

Dan

 
5433 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Re: Alzheimers

 
  Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al,

I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think 
that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience 
with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old 
grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing.

I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without 
memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary 
for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the 
conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those 
things, but accepting they are there, from memory.

We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't 
quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include 
Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana?  Can all of these be 
grasped in a single moment?

(I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a 
discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every 
reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-))

With Metta


Herman



--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Herman,
> I like these questions as I've wondered the same thing myself.
> As Antony pointed out Alzheimers is no fun.
> 
> Still I would give some other thoughts.
> --- Herman wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > Do people with alzheimers have an advantage over the rest of
> > us, 
> > being less distracted by memories?
> ______________
> it is not the memories really, that distract but the attachment
> or aversion to them.`Memories are just thinking taking a
> concept; and thus insight into: thinking or sanna, or the
> underlying lobha or dosa or avijja that occurs at these moments
> can occur.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Knowing the moment, does it require the past?
> 
> 
> ___________________
> I would say perhaps not. If there have been  accumulations of
> genuine satipatthana at a level beyond the conceptual
> understanding of anatta; and if satipatthana has become habitual
> then why should it not continue even if memory has deteriorated.
> 
> One could wonder though if someone who had this degree of
> insight would suffer the profound loss of memory that Antony
> detailed- this I don't know.
> 
> > 
> > Can there be panna without sanna?
> 
> ___________
> 
> Sanna arise with every citta thus even if there is the complete
> loss of  conventional memory sanna is arising. 
> 
> I know what you mean though. Can panna arise if there is no
> memory of the Dhamma? My answer is above 
> > 
> > I'm asking because I do not know.
> ______
> 
> So I don't know either. Just my speculation above.
> robert
> 

 
5434 From: Antony 
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: Alzheimers

 
  > (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a 
> discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every 
> reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-))
> 
> 
Herman you are so wise

I agree with both these hypothesis.  Of coursse evrything is composed 
of everything else, and all of them are empty.

P.S. I didn't think you were making light of Alzheimers. I just raved 
on to show what an ugly thing it is.

 
5435 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1)

 
  Dan

--- Dan wrote: 
> Hi Jon,
> I have very little time right now, so I'll limit myself to a few 
> quick comments. The question about the extent to which the hindrances 
> are obstacles to insight is a crucial one, so it is important to get 
> it right. Your post was very helpful in this regard, especially your 
> summaries of AN X, 61 & 62.

Thanks for taking the trouble to get back with your comments.  I too find
the AN passage very useful.

> That they are particular obstacles to insight is fairly clear, both 
> in the sense of weakening insight [granted] and "...in the sense of 
> obstructing and hindering and conceling (reality) from consciousness" 
> [Vism. XXII, 57]. 

Impeccable authority here.  I can't argue with that.

> You wrote: "Knowing which are the 
> qualities to be developed and which are the factors leading to more 
> craving for becoming, the hindrances may gradually be overcome." How 
> to know them? Yes, of course we can read about them and think about 
> them, but since they conceal reality from consciousness, even 
> moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal sitting 
> can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise. Whether it is 
> samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two weeks', 
> three weeks', four weeks' retreat, or at the level of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 
> 4th jhana, this is an effective way to temporarily overcome the 
> hindrances to a degree necessary for insight to arise.

A point for you to consider, Dan.  The akusala that is a hindrance must be
known or recognised as a moment of akusala if it is to be suppressed by
the development of samatha.  But in being so known, it is no longer
"obstructing and hindering and concealing (reality) from consciousness".

There is a difference here between those who have heard and understood the
teaching in the present lifetime and those who have not.  For the latter,
the akusala nature of the moment can be known but not the intrinsic nature
of the reality, so the highest level of development that can occur is the
development of samatha.  However, for one who is fortunate enough to have
heard and understood the dhamma in this lifetime, there can be the
awareness of a characteristic of the reality that appears or the studying
of its true nature, and this of course is satipatthana.

> You have 
> anticipated my "Discouraging 1.2" [not "Discouraging 2", though, 
> which will deal with our friends second point instead of a second 
> example of his first point].

Wasn't meaning to rush you!  Looking forward to more on this point.

Jon



 
5436 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:06pm
Subject: Awareness of Hindrances

 
  Dear Jonothan, I like your post on the hindrances, especially where you
stressed the relevance of the study of the hindrances to the development of
the eightfold Path. In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon
explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by
Santi Phantakeong :
< If there is the firm understanding that the hindrances are dhammas which
are reality, there are conditions for the arising of satipatthana which can
be aware of the characteristic of a particular hindrance according to
conditions. Then the akusala that is a hindrance is the object of panna
which knows the truth and in that way the clinging to the view that akusala
is self can be abandoned.>
I would like to add that if there is no mindfulness, the hindrances,
ignorance included, can weaken insight. But at the moment of mindfulness of
whatever appears, be it wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala, insight
can grow. There are many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness, but these
moments are conditioned, because they arose also in the past, life after
life. Can we notice them during the day? There is a difference between
forgetfulness of realities and mindfulness. When there is mindfulness, there
is no notion of my hand touching the table, but only one nama or rupa
appearing through one of the six doors. Just hardness may appear through the
bodysense. After that there are bound to be many moments of being absorbed
in concepts such as table or hand. It is not easy to learn the difference
between forgetfulness and ignorance of realities, and mindfulness of just
one reality at a time. Very gradually we can begin to know the difference.
 More understanding of the fact that whatever arises, be it kusala or
akusala, is conditioned, will help us to gradually let go of the concept
that it is my akusala. I would like to quote from the "Kindred Sayings" (V,
Mahavagga, Book I, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Ch VIII, the Flood) where it
has been repeated with regard to all the different groups of defilements
that they have to be fully comprehended.  We read about the Hindrances:
< Monks, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of
sensual desire, the hindrance of malevolence, the hindrance of sloth and
torpor, the hindrance of excitement and flurry, the hindrance of doubt and
wavering. These are the five hindrances. It is for the full comprehension,
realization, wearing down and abandoning that the ariyan eightfold Way must
be cultivated.>
   In this text the hindrances are classified as fivefold, and then
ignorance is not among them, but in different texts they are classified in
different ways. However, there is ignorance with every kind of akusala. In
the same sutta ignorance is mentioned among the five higher fetters which
must be abandoned by full comprehension.
With metta, Nina van Gorkom.

 
5437 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Alzheimers

 
  Hi, Herman -

In a message dated 6/3/01 7:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Herman writes:


> Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al,
> 
> I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think 
> that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience 
> with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old 
> grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing.
> 
> I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without 
> memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary 
> for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the 
> conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those 
> things, but accepting they are there, from memory.
> 
> We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't 
> quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include 
> Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana?  Can all of these be 
> grasped in a single moment?
> 
> (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as a 
> discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve every 
> reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-))
> 
> With Metta
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
===============================
       You write: 
      
       "We emphasise being aware of the present moment, and I certainly don't 
quarrel with that. Does awareness of this single moment include 
Lakkhana, Rasa, Paccupatthana and Padatthana?  Can all of these be 
grasped in a single moment? (I have this sneaking suspicion that there is no 
such thing as a discreet single moment, but rather that all realities involve 
every 
reality that has ever been. Just hypothesising, of course :-))"
     
       You might enjoy reading some of the Theravadin academic David 
Kalupahana, I think. He also is suspicious of the strictly momentary view of 
experience, quoting William James in describing our moments as more like 
"saddle points" or what I would call fuzzy intervals. He also doesn't believe 
that a ksanavada (sp?) view is expressed by the Buddha in the suttas. 

       In any case, it seems to me that there is no adequate grasping of 
objects without sa~n~na, which involves memory, and certainly there is no 
adequate grasping of relations without the function of memory.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5438 From: celia walter   
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 11:20pm
Subject: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead

 
  Dear Dhamma Friends

Thank you for answering my question about the transfer of merit. I have had 
a look at the sources you recommended. I find the explanation a bit 
difficult to get my "head" around as I still have a very Western mind 
set.BTW I am sorry I took so long to say "Thanks".

Metta
Celia


 
5439 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 1:42pm
Subject: Japanese translation

 
  Dear Nina and group,
I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to
the wider community and five of my students have got together
and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have
finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. I may
put in some money towards getting it published.
I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly
get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often
western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have
ethical implications they really get excited.
robert


 
5440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 2:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead

 
  Dear Celia,

It would be interesting to hear more about exactly which aspect you find difficult. 

I found Kom's explanation to be very clear. i find it's very helpful and uplifting to rejoice in
others' good deeds. 

When it comes to sharing one's good deeds however, it can sound like 'boasting' to my
English-trained ears and I'm aware of very mixed motives if I tell anyone about a good deed. 

When I'm in Thailand, I find K.Sujin never talks about her good deeds, but others talk about
theirs a lot and I do sometimes question the motives, but these are probably just my akusala
cittas (unwholesome states) at work when they should be rejoicing!!

Hope to hear more from you!

Sarah


 --- celia walter  wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends
> 
> Thank you for answering my question about the transfer of merit. I have had 
> a look at the sources you recommended. I find the explanation a bit 
> difficult to get my "head" around as I still have a very Western mind 
> set.BTW I am sorry I took so long to say "Thanks".
> 
> Metta
> Celia
> 



 
5441 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 2:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Alzheimers

 
  Dear Herman,

I've found this discussion interesting. This is a subject close to my heart too. I also watched a
grandmother suffer from this disease. Every morning she'd get dressed in her 'Sunday best' with
hat and gloves ready for church and be so disappointed when we sent her upstairs to change! All
the relationships were very mixed up too and so was everything else!  Recently two of my mother's
closest, brightest and most deep-thinking friends have gone the same route and I just heard from a
friend in Germany, Gabi, who cares for her mother with A.D., but no longer considers her as a
mother and her mother seldom recognises her.

As Rob pointed out, even when there seems to be no memory, there is sanna at each moment marking
its object. However the samutti sacca (conventional truths) are forgotten and the sanna and
thinking about the concepts are all mixed up. There are still many memories (in my grandma's case
they were all early childhood ones which were amazingly clear).

Whether there is any less chance of this happening to someone who has developed satipatthana, I
wouldn't like to speculate. i think that anything can happen and we never know what conditions
will have what effect at any given time. However, I do think that, especially in the earlier
stages, there can be moments of awareness in between the other moments. There isn't forgetfulness
or disease at every moment. We may forget who our family are, what our job was, how famous we were
or any other worldly gains and yet there can still be moments of sati.

Any disease or sickness is an excellent reminder to me to see the urgency of developing more
understanding now while we have the opportunity. This will be the best 'insurance' for whatever
conditions have in store for us. 

Best wishes,
Sarah

--- Herman wrote: > Dear Robert, Antony, Num et al,
> 
> I certainly wasn't making light of Alzheimers disease, nor do I think 
> that was suggested by anyone. I too have some second hand experience 
> with this condition. There is something very sobering about your old 
> grandmother yelling out to her mother that her nappies need changing.
> 
> I used Alzheimers where I should have specified someone without 
> memory. I can look at a tree, and realise that the sun is necessary 
> for this tree, without me seeing the sun. Memory, allowing the 
> conceiving of the interrelatedness of things without seeing those 
> things, but accepting they are there, from memory.
> 



 
5442 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:10pm
Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala)

 
  Dear Rob, Wyn and Jim,

Apologies for raising this topic again after a long break!(originally raised by Wyn). 
Just to re-cap  earlier posts:

Wyn said:> > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have:
> > > 
> > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala]
> > and
> > > unskilful
> > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara,
> > skilful
> > > ta.nhaa is for
> > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of
> > samsaric
> > > activities].' [87]
> 
Sarah said: > Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following
> other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and
> describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think
> that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha
> is for abandoning by skilful states.
> 

For the Netthi passage above, I tried looking at the pali com. which Jim supplied but it was
hopeless as my pali is very limited. So instead, I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun
sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make.

She stressed that tanha is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the
proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha can be a condition
for kusala. Rob pointed  this out in the quote from him below too. Attachment can be attached to
anything except nibbana. She mentioned, as Rob does, that attachment to kusala or for learning or
dhamma is not as bad as craving for sensuous objects even though it's still not wholesome at that
moment. The difference is in the degrees as a result of the object . 

In summary, tanha is always akusala, but the first kind may be a condition for kusala, but the
second kind will not.

Of course it would be better to read a pali comm supporting this explanation, but I'll have to
leave that to Jim & Nina for now.

Best regards,
Sarah 




Rob said: The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I
checked the pali and the English translation looks right. 
.............................................
We know that the vital conditions for the path
are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying
it.
Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the
moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. 
robert



 --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote: > Dear Wyn,
> > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for
> > kusala and
> > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for
> > pretty well
> > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the
> > operative word)
> > preferable to have tanha towards things related to
> > Dhamma
> > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For
> > instance, I
> > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or
> > Thailand to
> > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with
> > tanha ( some is
> > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and
> > this
> > conditions some detachment and understanding(no
> > tanha at those
> > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for
> > wisdom.

> > --- wynn  wrote:
> > > Is all tanha unskilful?
> 
Sarah said:> I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest
> it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of
> craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and
> Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any
> suggestion to the contrary.
> 
> One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that
> tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala:
> 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the
> Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as
> condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion,
> gladness and equanimity.  Owing to the fulfilment of
> the meditative development he is reborn in the
> Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) 
> 
> Still, the tanha is akusala.
> 
 > 



 
5443 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:13pm
Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala)

 
  Dear Rob, Wyn and Jim,

Apologies for raising this topic again after a long break!(originally raised by Wyn). 
Just to re-cap  earlier posts:

Wyn said:> > > Then in the Nettipakara.na, we have:
> > > 
> > > 'There are two kinds of ta.nhaa: skilful [kusala]
> > and
> > > unskilful
> > > [akusala]. Unskilful ta.nhaa leads to sa.msaara,
> > skilful
> > > ta.nhaa is for
> > > abandoning, which leads to diminishing [of
> > samsaric
> > > activities].' [87]
> 
Sarah said: > Yes, this is a little puzzling and I've been following
> other links (DN & Vibhanga) which also list and
> describe tanha in detail as akusala. I can only think
> that the meaning is similar to that in AN above: tanha
> is for abandoning by skilful states.
> 

For the Netthi passage above, I tried looking at the pali com. which Jim supplied but it was
hopeless as my pali is very limited. So instead, I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun
sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make.

She stressed that tanha is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the
proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha can be a condition
for kusala. Rob pointed  this out in the quote from him below too. Attachment can be attached to
anything except nibbana. She mentioned, as Rob does, that attachment to kusala or for learning or
dhamma is not as bad as craving for sensuous objects even though it's still not wholesome at that
moment. The difference is in the degrees as a result of the object . 

In summary, tanha is always akusala, but the first kind may be a condition for kusala, but the
second kind will not.

Of course it would be better to read a pali comm supporting this explanation, but I'll have to
leave that to Jim & Nina for now.

Best regards,
Sarah 




Rob said: The quote from the netti has puzzled me a little for years. I
checked the pali and the English translation looks right. 
.............................................
We know that the vital conditions for the path
are Hearing deep Dhamma, considering it, testing it, applying
it.
Sometimes it is partly Tanha that brings us to listen? - but the
moments when there is understanding there is not tanha. 
robert



 --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote: > Dear Wyn,
> > Tanha(akusala desire) can be upanissaya paccaya for
> > kusala and
> > thus even for the path. We have a ton of tanha - for
> > pretty well
> > everthing. It is possibly(and possibly is the
> > operative word)
> > preferable to have tanha towards things related to
> > Dhamma
> > because this can be upanissaya for later alobha. For
> > instance, I
> > am now thinking(quite often) about going to India or
> > Thailand to
> > listen to Dhamma. Much of this thinking is with
> > tanha ( some is
> > conditioned by wisdom). If I go and hear dhamma and
> > this
> > conditions some detachment and understanding(no
> > tanha at those
> > moments) then the tanha was upanissaya paccaya for
> > wisdom.

> > --- wynn  wrote:
> > > Is all tanha unskilful?
> 
Sarah said:> I've certainly never heard anything before to suggest
> it isn't. 'Tangle is a term for the network of
> craving.' (Vis 1,2) Indeed the Visuddhimagga and
> Vibhanga enumerate the 108 kinds of tanha without any
> suggestion to the contrary.
> 
> One cause for confusion MAYBE as Rob, suggests, that
> tanha can be upanissaya paccaya for kusala:
> 'Another thinks, 'I shall enjoy the delights of the
> Brahma-world', and with sense-desire clinging as
> condition he develops lovingkindness, compassion,
> gladness and equanimity.  Owing to the fulfilment of
> the meditative development he is reborn in the
> Brahma-world'. (Vis V11,18) 
> 
> Still, the tanha is akusala.
> 
 > 



 
5444 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 3:49pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1)-Sarah

 
  Dear Dan,

Thanks for your kind comments. This thread is fathering quite a bit of traffic and I'm still on
1.1 too!

Just a couple more points:

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: 
> 
> It may well be true that it is the cetana that counts, and that good 
> intentions have good results. However, the true intention is so easily 
> cloaked in lobha, dosa, or moha that it is not enough to just think 
> about the intention and to rest easy because we think we have good 
> intentions. Where is the dosa, lobha, moha? Did they root enough of 
> the cittas to make the overall effect of the speech or thought or 
> action akusala?

I agree with this. There is so much dosa, lobha and moha mixed in with the moments of kusala when
we speak or act. Those 'cheating' dhammas trick us over and over again. With the growth of
understanding more layers of the plaintain tree are shed and more akusala cittas and view of self
are revealed!

Another point is that even if they seem to be mostly pretty good intentions at our beginner level,
it maybe that the time or manner is not appropriate for the listener. This can be especially
difficult on a list.  If we think too much about it, nothing will get posted!
> 
> Hmmm.... Here's where there is a confusion between "being discouraged" 
> and finding someone's writing discouraging. I'm not feeling 
> discouraged at all. But I can see how someone who has studied Dhamma 
> for decades and has an intricate knowledge of the suttas, a good 
> working knowledge of Abhidhamma, a well-developed meditation practice, 
> is interested in learning Dhamma, discussing Dhamma, understanding 
> Dhamma might find something that obscures Dhamma and contradicts 
> Dhamma in the name of Dhamma discouraging. Would they be discouraged?

If we hear what seems to be inaccurate or wrong view by a CAW or even one of those pesky
HAABOWHATLs, why do we find it discouraging? Why not turn away or give a useful reminder or
correction?

Actually, doesn't this happen all the time, especially on a list? We hear many different views. To
end up with the view that 'Everything I ever thought I knew or understood about the Dhamma is
completely wrong' would not be because one thought one was reading wrong views.  Surely it's
because what one reads makes so much sense that one's 'own' understanding is being questioned and
some of those layers of wrong view and ignorance are being revealed. As we discussed with Antony,
it would depend on conditions and tendencies as to whether this new 'revelation' would condition
dosa, lobha or whatever.

> Yes, if they take Dhamma as not-Dhamma or not-Dhamma as Dhamma. But 
> when there is understanding of Dhamma, Dhamma is encouraging, while 
> not-Dhamma does not give rise to discouragement even though the sound 
> of it is discouraging ....

Exactly so. It depends on the understanding. We can study for decades or lifetimes with wrong view
of self. We can read all the suttas (or even the abhidhamma) with an idea of self, even if we talk
about anatta.

Of course sound is only sound. The hearing which hears the sound is kusala or akusala vipaka
resulting from previous kamma. There is nothing discouraging in the sound. It is the thinking and
the stories about what has been heard, accompanied by the dosa and domanassa that are
discouraging......or 'bad news'.

Dan, i've run out of time, but will be happy to follow on later if you wish...

Hope you're doing O.K.

Sarah




 
5445 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need 
some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can 
find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall 
reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to 
find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only 
list I have at present is here:
http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm

If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma 
categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really 
the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this 
I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been 
able to find, and I know there are many more.

On that note, the classification process of dhammas and categories 
has been quite straightforward so far. The Abhidhamma's categories 
saves me from perhaps the biggest headache in creating any KR 
(Knowledge Representation) system: definitng a useful taxonomy of 
phenomena and their inter-dependencies. Fortunately, this has already 
been done by the Abhidhamma compilers to such a high degree it is 
only monkey-work for me to type this in at this point.

Last, if anyone knows of a place willing to donate web server space 
and CPU power to run the application (WinNT/Linux/FreeBSD), I'd also 
greatly appreciate this. Nothing is ready at the moment, so there's 
no immediate need.

Thanks again,
Erik

 
5446 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 8:12pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Hi C.L.,

I wrote to you earlier too, but was having computer probs which seemed to result in another post
going out twice and yours getting lost!!

. the key word here
> is SLOWLY... sigh... I think might not be able to achieve in convincing that
> Dhamma is the way .. in such a short while.. Dhamma advises on showing the
> way by setting an example for oneself.... guess there is no other way huh ?

That's about it!

> I agree with you that to develop own understanding for our own good .... but
> somehow I am sure with the worldly life's attachments... all of us wants the
> best for our loved ones even religion wise even they don't see the
> benefits.... what do you think ?

Different moments! In other words, sometimes we genuinely act and speak for the other's benefit,
but so often it is attachment speaking.....do we really want to face up to the truth and
understand the different mental states and other realities for what they are?? Sometimes we're
very concerned about the others' beliefs and views and wrong ideas and intentions, but there's no
understanding of 'our own' thinking, seeing hearing, attachment or whatever is 'real' at that
moment!

Keep teling us what you think,

Sarah 




 
5447 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation

 
  Rob

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote: > Dear
Nina and group,
> I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to
> the wider community and five of my students have got together
> and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have
> finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end.

A very worthwhile project.  Let's hope they do see it through.

I immediately thought of Tadao Miyamoto (ex-monk Jetananda) who is very
familiar with the subject matter and is also somehing of a Pali scholar
(or was).  If you think it would be useful to have your students' work
looked over, Tadao would be a likely candidate.  (He may even have started
dong some translation work many years ago - long since forgotten I'm
sure.) 

Jon

 I may
> put in some money towards getting it published.
> I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly
> get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often
> western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have
> ethical implications they really get excited.
> robert



 
5448 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation

 
  Jon, thanks.
Could you look into this further later.Perhaps you could write
Tadao and ask if he has done anything and whether he would help.
They expect to finish it around december.
robert
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Rob
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> wrote: > Dear
> Nina and group,
> > I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open
> to
> > the wider community and five of my students have got
> together
> > and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have
> > finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end.
> 
> A very worthwhile project.  Let's hope they do see it through.
> 
> I immediately thought of Tadao Miyamoto (ex-monk Jetananda)
> who is very
> familiar with the subject matter and is also somehing of a
> Pali scholar
> (or was).  If you think it would be useful to have your
> students' work
> looked over, Tadao would be a likely candidate.  (He may even
> have started
> dong some translation work many years ago - long since
> forgotten I'm
> sure.) 
> 
> Jon
> 
>  I may
> > put in some money towards getting it published.
> > I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they
> quickly
> > get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often
> > western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions
> have
> > ethical implications they really get excited.
> > robert
> 


 
5449 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Erik

I thought your project sounded very worthwhile, if I understand it
correctly, not being particularly computer-savvy myself.  A sort of
concise database summary of the Abhidhamma with hotlinks?  Quite a task
you have set yourself (so many different conditions and combinations
possible for each reality), but I wish you the best  with it.

Jon

PS  What are the categories and matrices you refer to below - if you could
elaborate a bit I'd be pleased to help if i can.

--- Erik wrote: > 
> Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need 
> some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can 
> find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall 
> reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to 
> find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only 
> list I have at present is here:
> http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm
> 
> If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma 
> categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really 
> the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this 
> I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been 
> able to find, and I know there are many more.
> 
> On that note, the classification process of dhammas and categories 
> has been quite straightforward so far. The Abhidhamma's categories 
> saves me from perhaps the biggest headache in creating any KR 
> (Knowledge Representation) system: definitng a useful taxonomy of 
> phenomena and their inter-dependencies. Fortunately, this has already 
> been done by the Abhidhamma compilers to such a high degree it is 
> only monkey-work for me to type this in at this point.
> 
> Last, if anyone knows of a place willing to donate web server space 
> and CPU power to run the application (WinNT/Linux/FreeBSD), I'd also 
> greatly appreciate this. Nothing is ready at the moment, so there's 
> no immediate need.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Erik



 
5450 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote: > Jon,
thanks.
> Could you look into this further later.Perhaps you could write
> Tadao and ask if he has done anything and whether he would help.
> They expect to finish it around december.
> robert

I'd be happy to.  I'll let you know what happens, and will follow up
off-list.
J

> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > Rob
> > 
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> > wrote: > Dear
> > Nina and group,
> > > I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open
> > to
> > > the wider community and five of my students have got
> > together
> > > and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have
> > > finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end.
> > 
> > A very worthwhile project.  Let's hope they do see it through.
> > 
> > I immediately thought of Tadao Miyamoto (ex-monk Jetananda)
> > who is very
> > familiar with the subject matter and is also somehing of a
> > Pali scholar
> > (or was).  If you think it would be useful to have your
> > students' work
> > looked over, Tadao would be a likely candidate.  (He may even
> > have started
> > dong some translation work many years ago - long since
> > forgotten I'm
> > sure.) 
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> >  I may
> > > put in some money towards getting it published.
> > > I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they
> > quickly
> > > get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often
> > > western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions
> > have
> > > ethical implications they really get excited.
> > > robert
> > 



 
5451 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:02pm
Subject: Subject: Awareness of Hindrances (Lexicon)

 
  Nina wrote:  "In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon
explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by
Santi Phantakeong "

Question:  Is this Lexicon available only in Thai?  If not, is it currently 
available somewhere?

Thanks
Paul Bail, lurker

 
5452 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:02pm
Subject: Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala)

 
  Sarah wrote: 
>>I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun
sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make.She stressed that tanha 
is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if there are the
proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed), then the tanha 
can be a conditionfor kusala. Rob pointed  this out in the quote from him 
below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except nibbana. 

Question:
Since one can wish for, aspire to, or desire (one's concept of) nibbana, why 
can nibbana not be an oject of attachment?

Thanks
Paul Bail

 
5453 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 10:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Back to Tanha (kusala/akusala)

 
  Dear Paul,
the concept of nibbana can be, and for Buddhists often is, a
object for attachment.
But the actual dhamma that is nibbana cannot be. 
robert
--- Paul Bail wrote:
> Sarah wrote: 
> >>I raised this point while I was speaking to Khun
> sujin yesterday to see if she had any comment to make.She
> stressed that tanha 
> is always akusala (unwholesome) at that moment. However, if
> there are the
> proper conditions (i.e. rt understanding has been developed),
> then the tanha 
> can be a conditionfor kusala. Rob pointed  this out in the
> quote from him 
> below too. Attachment can be attached to anything except
> nibbana. 
> 
> Question:
> Since one can wish for, aspire to, or desire (one's concept
> of) nibbana, why 
> can nibbana not be an oject of attachment?
> 
> Thanks
> Paul Bail
> 



 
5454 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 10:58pm
Subject: Re: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead (boasting/dhana?)

 
  Dear Sarah,

This aspect of dhana is pretty interesting and delicate.  

1) I found myself sometimes wondering about the motives of persons 
telling me about their good deeds.  On the other hand, we know that 
this doubt is most certainly the hearer's akusala, and that there 
*must* be kusala for the giver at the moment of the actual dhana.  So 
speculating about other people's motive at the time of the telling is 
somewhat moot as we can almost never be certain (unless the person 
really does it excessively?).

2) I have listened to some tape made by T.A. Sujin talking about some 
people who takes the dana up to a finer level: the person would 
explain the details about the dana and sometimes actually showing the 
other person the dana objects for the other to have the opportunity 
to have even stronger (somannassa and piti) anumoddhana!

3) There are many suttas about people in the suttas "raising their 
flag" just because of one good quality/achievement they have.  We 
know that mana can be the motive of such deed.

4) It is almost as effective to tell of others' kusalas giving the 
opportunities for others to rejoice.  I personally found the teller's 
motive to be more often purer (not always!), and the hearer's 
rejoicing to come easier.  Of course, there is always the problem 
with the attachment to the associations of certain people (telling of 
only my friend's good deeds but not others).

5) For just observing her for the time that we spent with her, she 
hardly needs to say what good deeds she has done as they come across 
without being told!  Seeing it has much higher quality for rejoicing 
than hearing about it.

kom



--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> When I'm in Thailand, I find K.Sujin never talks about her good 
deeds, but others talk about
> theirs a lot and I do sometimes question the motives, but these are 
probably just my akusala
> cittas (unwholesome states) at work when they should be rejoicing!!
> 
> Hope to hear more from you!
> 
> Sarah

 
5455 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1)-Sarah

 
  Hi Sarah,
A few quick comments--

You wrote:
> Actually, doesn't this happen all the time, especially on a list? We 
hear many different views. To
> end up with the view that 'Everything I ever thought I knew or 
understood about the Dhamma is
> completely wrong' would not be because one thought one was reading 
wrong views.  Surely it's
> because what one reads makes so much sense that one's 'own' 
understanding is being questioned and
> some of those layers of wrong view and ignorance are being revealed. 

I'm not sure what our friend was thinking when he wrote those 
comments, and I'm not going to speculate about it. For me, the points 
2-12 are very interesting because they are so absurd yet so much 
resemble CAW's comments that I wanted to discuss them further.

Dan

 
5456 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 11:36pm
Subject: Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Erik
> 
> I thought your project sounded very worthwhile, if I understand it
> correctly, not being particularly computer-savvy myself.  A sort of
> concise database summary of the Abhidhamma with hotlinks?  Quite a 
task
> you have set yourself (so many different conditions and combinations
> possible for each reality), but I wish you the best  with it.

I know the Thai recension of the Patthana is some 6,000 pages of 
relations, so I realize the size of the task, if the aim is to 
capture ALL the Abhidhamma. That is not within the scope of my 
abilities or time; if this is going to happen it will have to be 
collaborative. I am more concerned with getting the core categories 
and relations added for now. That will make it useful ennpough, I 
think, for the project to gain the sort of critical mass it wil need 
for others to consider donating time to fill out the database.

More dhammas, categories, and relations can be added piecemeal with a 
web-based ontology editor, which will allow for the creation of new 
categories and relations by various contributors. This sort of thing 
is already being done, and I'm basing this on software that provides 
both a web-based browser for all these categories and relations as 
well as an ontology editor--all through the web.

> PS  What are the categories and matrices you refer to below - if 
you could
> elaborate a bit I'd be pleased to help if i can.

As far as I have been able to discern, there are 122 major categories 
in the Abhidhamma. This would include the 89/212 cittas, 52 
cetasikas, PLUS, all the categories they fall into (for example 
virati-cetasikas).

Example classification hierarchy:

cetasikas:

   sobhana
      sadharana
      appamanna
         karunaa
         muditaa
      virati
         sammaa-vaca
         sammaa-kammanta
         sammaa-ajiva

Presumably there are also tables listing all the Dukas and Tikas I 
can work from. Basically, any information with canonical categories 
and relations will be most helpful.

Thanks again,
Erik

 
5457 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 0:15am
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  > A point for you to consider, Dan.  The akusala that is a hindrance 
must be
> known or recognised as a moment of akusala if it is to be suppressed 
by
> the development of samatha.  But in being so known, it is no longer
> "obstructing and hindering and concealing (reality) from 
consciousness".

Yes, but it doesn't take a Buddha to notice that the hindrances are 
hindrances. If knowing were simply a yes-no thing, then why all this 
talk about "attenuation" and "weakening" of insight? 

> There is a difference here between those who have heard and 
understood the
> teaching in the present lifetime and those who have not.  For the 
latter,
> the akusala nature of the moment can be known but not the intrinsic 
nature
> of the reality, so the highest level of development that can occur 
is the
> development of samatha.  

Don't underrate the development of samatha! If a Buddhist develops 
samatha by observing the hindrances while sitting quietly, legs 
crossed, eyes closed, this opens the door for insight (but of course, 
it doesn't mean that insight necessarily arises).

Dan

 
5458 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Subject: Awareness of Hindrances (Lexicon)

 
  op 04-06-2001 16:02 schreef Paul Bail op Paul Bail:

> Nina wrote:  "In this respect I would like to quote from the Lexicon
> explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written by
> Santi Phantakeong "
> 
> Question:  Is this Lexicon available only in Thai?  If not, is it currently
> available somewhere?
> 
Dear Paul, the Lexicon is only in Thai, and it is not printed in bookform. I
am glad you are interested, I shall quote more often. Santi is a wonderful
teacher and Pali scholar, and has deep understanding of the Dhamma. He does
not speak English yet. In India I shall approach him with a lot of Dhamma
questions again. He gives an explanation of the deep meaning of Pali terms
and he always keeps in mind the goal of learning: understanding of the
realities which appear. He is a great assistant to Acharn Sujin.
By the way, Paul, one may believe to be attached to the unconditioned
reality nibbana, but in fact one is only attached to a concept, pa`n`natti,
which is not a reality, not a paramattha dhamma. Just a product of thinking.
Nibbana is the end of attachment. Nina.

 
5459 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  Erik,

>Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need
>some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can
>find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall
>reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to
>find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only
>list I have at present is here:
>http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm
>
>If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma
>categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really
>the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this
>I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been
>able to find, and I know there are many more.

Perhaps you are thinking of the categories in the maatikaa. The 122
categories agrees with the total of 22 triplets + 100 couplets. The primary
source for these are found in the matikaa at the beginning of the
Dhammasangani:

tikamaatikaa: 22 triplets beginning with the kusala triplet.
dukamaatikaa:
  abhidhammadukamaatikaa: 100 couplets beginning with the hetu group
  suttantikadukamaatikaa: 42 couplets

The Dhammasangani explains them all but only goes into full detail with the
first triplet. My Indian edition of the Patthana takes up 6 volumes of about
400 pp. each. It poses approximately 400 billion questions but a great many
of them are not valid ones and consequently left unanswered.

Best wishes to your project,
Jim



5460 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 5:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] intro and appeal

 
  Dear Tori
Dear group

I was very surprised and gratified by the compassionate gesture of Tori
writing an appeal to the list on my benefit.
She has been lately witnessing my struggles and trials here in London and
has helped me both emotionally and materially in various opportunities even
if we met vis a vis only a short time ago.
Thank you for the concern of the few members who have contacted me off list.
Much appreciated your support.

I was quite wary of disclosing such confidential facts of my life in a list 
but Tori and Amara had persuaded me to share.
Well here I am stripping myself psychologically; sorry if the vision offends 
your modesty.

Since long I have been suffering from clinical depression but I managed to 
cope with Vipassana  meditation, the strenght of Dhamma plus my quite 
volitive character but now I am under a very severe depressive crisis and 
went to search proper medical assistance here in London while experiencing 
an upsetting nervous breakdown and where I am presently stuck having come 
from Southeast Asia on a job assignment.
The psychiatrist diagnosed recurrent depression and prescribed 
antidepressants plus advised resorting to cognitive therapy (that I cannot 
afford but I joined some self help groups of sufferers here in London as 
well a discussion list on Buddhism and depression) but so far I did not 
perceive any effect and is more than five weeks I have been taking the drugs 
increasing the dosage.
I am completely disempowered and unable to work and I don't have savings, 
therefore my situation is pretty gloomy.
Depression is a very complex mood disorder extremely painful and
overwhelming; it crushes you down, it's a malignant sadness.
I was amazed with Victoria and her public appeal (all her initiative and 
concern) but as I could have guessed very few people contacted me for any 
kind of support whether emotional or material.
Compassion is a such an uplifting concept but achieving it is
another story made of right effort and warm hearts.
Well here am I trying my best to cope dear dhamma friends but as I don't 
have any family to help me (I am originally from Brazil for those who 
doesn't know me and orphan) I am staying with friends here and there 
(pissing them off I suppose being intrusive in their privacy) as I cannot 
afford a lodge in this expensive country and I am feeling too fragile and 
vulnerable to move away.
I am searching for homeless centers and buddhist shelters because I cannot 
depend on this friends and their generosity; I don't want to become a burden 
to anybody but I am ill and must give the priority to healing and all this 
material mess is aggravating my mental struggles but that is my reality 
right now.
I always relied on my inner resources to lead my life as kamma has heavily 
challenged me on the material plane but now I simply cannot work to earn my 
living and therefore I am broken: natural equation but still I confide in 
Dhamma to sort out it in the most beneficial way.
I particularly ask the interest and support from the British members of the 
list as they could give me precious information about Buddhist centers in 
London or elsewhere in England that could help me either for the lodge issue 
as for the search of any particular center that deals with Buddhism and 
depression and have an specific healing program.

I am focusing (for what I manage to achieve in concentration) on developing 
acceptance of my predicament, of my heartache and saying 'good morning 
heartache'!

Please send me metta dhamma friends and never, never minimize or be
condescending about depression: this devastating melancholy is like a cancer 
spreading inside you.
I am like bleeding inside and cannot do anything but accept it, all the pain 
and the grief.
I believe that depression is never only due to chemical imbalance but is a 
sinergy of many factors: brain chemistry and psychological issues as past 
kammic accumulations.


Love and respect
Cybele



>From: Tori Korshak 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] intro and appeal
>Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:59:58 +0100
>
>
>Dear Group,
>
>I am a lurker here attempting the transition to occasional contributor. I
>live in London with my husband and two grown children who still live at
>home although both are gainfully employed. They are not Buddhists although
>they know a lot of Dhamma from having to live with me, so at least it's not
>like a foreign language.
>
>I gain a lot from this list. In particular, the practical application of
>Abhidhamma has changed my practice. Many people seem to find Abhidhamma
>very dry, enumerative, and abstract, but with your help, I find this is
>less and less true for me, for example Robert's post on Kamma-Vatta from 25
>May. Robert and Sarah have tried to coax me out of my seclusion, but until
>now I haven't been up to it. For me, all theory must be useful and grounded
>in real life experience, stepping out of the merely intellectual  (or
>solipisistic) into the world we live in, otherwise what's it all for?
>
>Many thanks to all.
>Metta,
>Victoria
>
>P.S. I am concerned about the plight of Cybele who is ill and about to be
>made homeless. I know some members have generously helped her already. If
>there are any others who would like to make even the smallest contribution
>I know it would be much appreciated and carefully used.
>Feel free to write me off list if you prefer or write to Cybele directly.
>


 
5461 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 8:45am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  > Different moments! In other words, sometimes we genuinely act and speak
> for the other's benefit,
> but so often it is attachment speaking.....do we really want to face up to
> the truth and
> understand the different mental states and other realities for what they
> are?? Sometimes we're
> very concerned about the others' beliefs and views and wrong ideas and
> intentions, but there's no
> understanding of 'our own' thinking, seeing hearing, attachment or
> whatever is 'real' at that
> moment!
> 
> Keep teling us what you think,
> 
> Sarah 
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  sarah.... the last few lines is not
making any sense for me.. either it is first early working morning day thing
or I am truly blur.. please help to elaborate.....

	thanks

	Loke

 
5462 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 8:51am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation

 
  robert you raised an interesting question.. took the words right out of my
mouth.. "How do Western people get past doubts about past and future lives
?"

loke

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> Sent:	Monday, June 04, 2001 1:42 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Japanese translation
> 
> Dear Nina and group,
> I teach a class on world religion here in Japan. It is open to
> the wider community and five of my students have got together
> and are now translating Buddhism in Daily Life. They have
> finished chapter 1. Hope they will carry on until the end. I may
> put in some money towards getting it published.
> I find Japanese people very receptive to Dhamma; they quickly
> get past doubts about past and future lives (which so often
> western people get stuck on). Once they see how conditions have
> ethical implications they really get excited.
> robert
> 

 
5463 From: Purnomo .   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths

 
  Thank for your detail.
May I ask once again ?
I mean that however we be smart about Abhidhamma, but we don't approach 
Samadhi(meditation) so we be smart for theory only. My point is practice not 
theory. I know, Abhidhamma is important but you have to know that abhidhamma 
born from pracrice/experience. Don't you change, theory then practice. And 
it's most important that The Buddha Sakyamuni have found dhamma on his 
effort and experince. So, we could find that what all The Buddha told are 
based on his experince. So, we can find dhamma not from theory(Abhidhamma) 
but from your effort by meditation. And we must know, every body have got 
experience theirself. Remember, we have the same of goal, but we have 
different way to achieve it. These sentences macth what The Buddha said.
Be happier, be better everyday
Metta,

Purnomo


>From: Nina van Gorkom 
>>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and Noble Truths
>Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:18:27 +0200
>
>   Subject: Re: what is the abhidhamma /
>  Purnomo wrote:
>
>I'm not agree what you said. How could you say understand abhidhamma help
>your daily life. I think The Buddha said that The Four noble truth is most
>important and nothing else. The Buddha said metafisika(abhidhamma) is not
>important to achieve your holy life. May Those used to you and all. Thank,
>be happier, be better every day metta,
>Purnomo
>
>Dear Purnomo, I like your question, it is straightforward and deep.
>You may think that Abhidhamma is metaphysics, something abstract, beyond 
>our
>daily life. You are right to point to the four noble Truths which are the
>essence of the Buddha�s teaching. The Buddha taught Dhamma to  people  so
>that they would develop understanding and eventually realize the four noble
>Truths. What is the connection between the Abhidhamma and the four noble
>Truths?
>The fourth noble Truth is the eightfold Path, the development of rright
>understanding of all realities in daily life. What is our daily life? We 
>see
>and hear pleasant and unpleasant things and we think about them. On account
>of what we see and hear we often have attachment and aversion. They arise
>already before we realize it. Because of these defilements we may commit 
>bad
>deeds, we may steal or become agressive and harm other people. This is
>Abhidhamma.
>Abhidhamma means higher dhamma or dhamma in detail. This should not put us
>off. The Abhidhamma is not merely theory, the Buddha taught it so that
>people could develop understanding of their life. We think of <myself> and
>other people, other people hurt us, they are unpleasant to us. The
>Abhidhamma is higher dhamma because it teaches us what is really there: no
>self, no person, only elements which are impermanent. When a cow has been
>cut up, you do not have the idea of cow, cow does not really exist, there
>are only elements. Our life is: experiencing objects through eyes, ears,
>nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, through six doors. There is no self who
>experiences, there are only elements. That is Abhidhamma. Seeing now just
>sees, it is not committing any deed. It is result, vipaka, result of past
>kamma. Even though we do not know whether seeing now experiences a pleasant
>object or an unpleasant object, it is the result of kusala kamma or akusala
>kamma. We receive reults of past kamma, time and again. The Abhidhamma
>teaches us cause and result in life, it teaches us how everything in life
>arises because of the appropriate conditions. When understanding has been
>developed we shall realize that there is no self, that there are only
>elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa.
>You may like to read suttas, but also in the suttas there is Abhidhamma. 
>The
>Buddha taught suttas to people with different accumulations, he used words
>adapted to their level of understanding; and he used similes to explain the
>truth: that there is no self, only elements. That visible object, sound and
>the other sense objects are experienced one at a time through the six 
>doors.
>We cannot understand the deep meaning of the suttas without a basic
>understanding of the Abhidhamma. This does not mean that everybody has to
>read all seven Books of the Abhidhamma and know all details. That depends 
>on
>the personal inclination of the individual. Also in the Vinaya there is
>Abhidhamma: the Buddha explained different degrees of defilements to the
>monks. He explained how causes bring about their results accordingly. The
>Abhidhamma, the Suttanta and the Vinaya are one, they are the teaching of
>the Buddha.
>Now I come back to the four noble Truths. The first Truth is dukkha,
>suffering. This is not merely pain, it means: the arising and falling away
>of nama and rupa, their impermanence. Seeing now is dukkha, hearing now is
>dukkha. The Abhidhamma teaches us about seeing, hearing, and all other
>realities. If their different characteristics can be understood one at a
>time, their arising and falling away can be realized later on. It is a long
>process of developing understanding to penetrate the Truth of dukkha. 
>Seeing
>arises at a moment different from hearing; seeing experiences visible 
>object
>and hearing sound;  seeing arises at the eyesense and hearing at the
>earsense. Again, the teaching of seeing, hearing and the different
>conditions which make them arise, is the teaching of the Abhidhamma, the
>teaching of all that happens in our daily life. The aim of the study of the
>Abhidhamma is nothing else but the practice: the development of
>understanding of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, at this 
>moment.
>This is the only way to eventually understand that they are dukkha. The
>practice is the development of the eightfold Path, the development of
>satipatthana. The development not of theoretical understanding but of 
>direct
>understanding of all that is real. This leads to the direct realisation of
>the four noble Truths.
>The second noble Truth is the origin of dukkha: craving. This shows us the
>condition for our life now which is dukkha. In the teaching on the 
>Dependant
>Origination the Buddha taught us in detail about all the conditions for our
>going around in the cycle of birth and detah. Again, this is Abhidhamma. We
>cannot seperate the teaching of the Abhidhamma from the teaching about the
>four noble Truths. The third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, nibbana,
>can only be realized by panna, understanding, which has been developed, but
>this is a long process.
>If you have more questions, you are welcome, I like your way of 
>questioning.
>With metta, Nina van Gorkom.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


 
5464 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 2:41pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Dear C.L.,

I'll try!!

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: > 
> > Different moments! In other words, sometimes we genuinely act and speak
> > for the other's benefit,
> > but so often it is attachment speaking.....do we really want to face up to
> > the truth and
> > understand the different mental states and other realities for what they
> > are?? Sometimes we're
> > very concerned about the others' beliefs and views and wrong ideas and
> > intentions, but there's no
> > understanding of 'our own' thinking, seeing hearing, attachment or
> > whatever is 'real' at that
> > moment!
 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  sarah.... the last few lines is not
> making any sense for me.. either it is first early working morning day thing
> or I am truly blur.. please help to elaborate.....

We talk about the love we have for our family , our close friends and loved ones. We would like
them to be happy, healthy, successful and wise. We consider it a problem when they're not and in
the particular case you're discussing, when a loved one doesn't appreciate the Buddha's teachings
as we do.

There are two points I was trying to make:

1. Are we just concerned because it is 'our' loved one that we care so much about? Would we mind
if it were someone else we met? The minding and disappointment if we're not able to 'persuade'
them of the 'true path' gives an indication of the strong attachment which is apparent at that
time. When there is genuine care and concern or metta, there is no expectation at that time, no
minding or disappointment about the other's reaction. Of course it's very natural to have lots of
attachment to these people, but isn't it better to begin to recognise it? 

2. We are very used to thinking of problems in life as being connected to other people. 'If only
they would understand as we do' or 'appreciate where I'm at' or 'get over their wrong views' or
'just be different from how they are'.  In our studies and practice of the dhamma. we learn to
understand what really is being experienced at these and other moments. When we think like this,
the reality is thinking, which thinks about so many different stories, accompanied (usually) by
lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance). In between these thoughts there is
seeing, hearing and many other phenomena.

The extraordinary fact is that, with the aid of the dhamma, it is possible for panna (wisdom) to
get to know these realites, the mental and physical phenomena that make up or lives. We begin to
know what the real problems in life are. However, it's not easy to 'face up to the truth', i.e to
be aware of realities, to get to know them as not self and to see how often it is the attachment
rather than the other person's view that is the problem. 

What I meant earlier was that as this understanding deepens, it'll be easier to help others with
our words and hopefully, with our example. Sometimes it takes a lot of patience where a loved one
is concerned, however!

Best wishes and I hope this makes a little more sense.

Sarah




 
5465 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 3:00pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Sarah thank you for your detail explanation..... I have some replies
below....

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Sarah Procter Abbott [SMTP:Sarah ]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 05, 2001 2:41 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> 
> Dear C.L.,
> 
> I'll try!!
> 
> There are two points I was trying to make:
> 
> 1. Are we just concerned because it is 'our' loved one that we care so
> much about? Would we mind
> if it were someone else we met? The minding and disappointment if we're
> not able to 'persuade'
> them of the 'true path' gives an indication of the strong attachment which
> is apparent at that
> time. When there is genuine care and concern or metta, there is no
> expectation at that time, no
> minding or disappointment about the other's reaction. Of course it's very
> natural to have lots of
> attachment to these people, but isn't it better to begin to recognise it? 
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  I get your point but I have a further
question... say someone I care is not the same faith or rather not seeing
what we are seeing... and doing some practise that are not in accordance to
the precepts.... and knowing the Dhamma we can know the implications of this
action's kamma be it good or bad.... usually it is the bad that gets us
worried and troubled.... I know this is attachment to one thing or the
other...... I know that this is the attachment of wanting our spouse to have
better kamma... maybe better planes of existence... or maybe a better
ripening of good kamma.. ( I hope I didn't confuse you as I try to avoid too
much of Pali words.. I have no reference at the moment )

> 2. We are very used to thinking of problems in life as being connected to
> other people. 'If only
> they would understand as we do' or 'appreciate where I'm at' or 'get over
> their wrong views' or
> 'just be different from how they are'.  In our studies and practice of the
> dhamma. we learn to
> understand what really is being experienced at these and other moments.
> When we think like this,
> the reality is thinking, which thinks about so many different stories,
> accompanied (usually) by
> lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance). In between these
> thoughts there is
> seeing, hearing and many other phenomena.
> 
> The extraordinary fact is that, with the aid of the dhamma, it is possible
> for panna (wisdom) to
> get to know these realites, the mental and physical phenomena that make up
> or lives. We begin to
> know what the real problems in life are. However, it's not easy to 'face
> up to the truth', i.e to
> be aware of realities, to get to know them as not self and to see how
> often it is the attachment
> rather than the other person's view that is the problem. 
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  I am still confuse at this face up to
the truth.. you mean me ? what truth ? Is it about mental phenomena of
seeing hearing etc etc.... ?

> What I meant earlier was that as this understanding deepens, it'll be
> easier to help others with
> our words and hopefully, with our example. Sometimes it takes a lot of
> patience where a loved one
> is concerned, however!
> 
> Best wishes and I hope this makes a little more sense.
> 
> Sarah
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  thank you for answering my
questions......

	rgds,
	Loke CL 


 
5466 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 3:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Questions: Phassa, ekaggata, manasikara & Vi~n~nana

 
  Dear Num,

 
> Regarding ekaggata and manasikra, I still cannot grasp the difference that 
> clear.  Like dosa and dommanassa, each pair of those cetasika always arise 
> together amd share some similarities.   

Erik added some helpful comments about these cetasikas (mental factors). I'll just add a little
more. As you say, they're both 'universal cetasikas' arise with every citta (moment of
consciousness). This is very important to understand as so often we have the idea that there's no
concentration (ekaggata) or attention(manasikara) at certain times of the day, whereas these
particular realities arise at each moment, even when there seems to be no memory conventionally or
when we're in a real daze! 

With regard to manasikara (attention) cetasika, of course it can be kusala, akusala , vipaka or
kiriya as all universal cetasikas can. The Atthasalini (1.1V,ch1,133) says:

'that which regulates the object is called attention because it makes (the object) in the mind. 
It has the characteristic of driving associated states to the object, the manifestation of facing
the object.  It is included in the aggregate of mental coefficients, and should be regarded as the
charioteer of associated states because it regulates the object'.

I was checking a different point in the Vibhanga the other day and came across this definition of
ayonisomanasikara (unwise attention), Analysis of Small Items, par936:

'Therein what is 'improper attention'?  There is improper attention thus, 'In impermanence there
is permanence'; therre is improper attention thus, 'In pain there is pleasure';...'In absence of
soul there is a soul';...,'In absence of beauty there is beasuty'; or, turning of the mind,
repeated turning, cognition, advertence, attention to what is contrary to truth.  This is called
improper attention.'

>I agree with Nina's very insightful 
> response to my question that awareness and thinking or calling the name of 
> the reality is a totally different thing.   But to me, personally, if I 
> cannot call what I feel, I think I do not really know what I am feeling or 
> thinking about.   Long way to go. 

Sometimes it seems th at if we can't work it all out intellectually or put a label on what is
being experienced that awareness cannot grow. However, sometimes when we're trying to 'grasp the
difference' and lost in the world of concepts, there can be awareness of thinking at that moment
too. A moment of awareness now is more precious than the 'working it out' with no awareness at
all. As we've discussed and can see on the list, we all have such different interests.  You and
Kom, for example, have a very keen interest in hearing a lot of details and find this helpful. For
others it's the opposite. I've never read any of the abhidhamma texts from cover to cover and have
also gone very slowly on the details. I don't think there is a rule.
> 
> I ask myself at time, should I ask this kind of question.  I do ask myself a 
> whole lot more of questions!!!!   

I know! I'm sure we only hear a small percentage of them! Actually, I used to have a lot of
questions and I remember once when I lived in England, k.Sujin visited me and told me 'K.Sarah,
you think too much!'  It took many years before I fully appreciated what she meant. Thinking is a
reality which can be known and of course it's not a matter of not thinking or even thinking less.
But if we have the idea that we can 'work out'  the answers or 'get it' by thinking, we forget
about awareness of the reality which is conditioned already. 

Last Thursday I was in a very good mood when some workmen came in to do a job in my flat
efficiently and tidily. Of course I didn't complain about the work or my lobha. The next day some
other workmen came in to erect scaffolding and change an air-conditioner. There were all sorts of
problems. They had brought the wrong parts, they damaged a wooden floor and some paintwork. I
complained loudly not only about the work but the stress I was being caused! There was lots of
dosa and domanassa and some awareness of it and useful reflection in between. 

We know (in theory) that domanassa only feels (unpleasant) and is different from dosa but of
course it's very difficult to be aware of which is which. This doesn't mean that there cannot be
awareness of the 'unpleasantness being experienced'  at a given moment because it can't be
labelled.

Listening, reading, thinking and 
> understanding is totally different reality.   There are couple more pairs of 
> cetasika, that I still have a doubt.

Well, we have the next group raised by Erik of vitakka, vicara and adhimokka when we have the time
and energy too!!

Num, no one replied about 'Cetasikas', Nina's book, so I wonder if it's out of print? Never mind,
another opportunity for patience!

> Thank you and always appreciate your response.

Always appreciate hearing from you too!

Sarah

p.s Did you read those complicated kammajarupa related posts I sent you? Did they make any sense I
wonder? (Not that I'd be able to elaborate!!)


 
5467 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 7:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project

 
  dear eric,
I am thinking since you are not familiar with abhdhammapitaka .How can you do a project like this?it seems you do not know even the basic.it may be confusing to many people.Just let the book and tran. speak even the text give wrong reading.i am sorry if this is unpolite.




-----Original Message-----
From: "Jim Anderson" 
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:55:04 -0400
To:  Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Digital Abhidhamma Project


> Erik,
> 
> >Just wanted to thank everyone who replied to this thread. I may need
> >some assistance, as well. Particularly if anyone knows where I can
> >find a canonical list of all the Abhidhamma categories. I recall
> >reading there are 122 categories total, but I don't know where to
> >find a list I can use. Also am interested in the matrixes. The only
> >list I have at present is here:
> >http://www.buddhanet.net/vibhanga.htm
> >
> >If anyone could help me to locate a canonical list of Abhidhamma
> >categories and matrixes, I'd be extremely indebted. This is really
> >the core of what I need to gather at the moment, because without this
> >I can only classify the dhammas according to categories I have been
> >able to find, and I know there are many more.
> 
> Perhaps you are thinking of the categories in the maatikaa. The 122
> categories agrees with the total of 22 triplets + 100 couplets. The primary
> source for these are found in the matikaa at the beginning of the
> Dhammasangani:
> 
> tikamaatikaa: 22 triplets beginning with the kusala triplet.
> dukamaatikaa:
>   abhidhammadukamaatikaa: 100 couplets beginning with the hetu group
>   suttantikadukamaatikaa: 42 couplets
> 
> The Dhammasangani explains them all but only goes into full detail with the
> first triplet. My Indian edition of the Patthana takes up 6 volumes of about
> 400 pp. each. It poses approximately 400 billion questions but a great many
> of them are not valid ones and consequently left unanswered.
> 
> Best wishes to your project,
> Jim
> 

 
5468 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 1:26am
Subject: attention and concentration

 
  Dear Num, Some time ago you wrote that you were wondering about the  Dear
Num, some time ago you wrote that you were wondering about the difference
between the cetasikas concentration and attention. They seem to be very
close. 

Concentration (ekaggata cetasika or samadhi) and attention (manasikara)
belong to the group of cetasikas which are the seven <Universals>,
accompanying each and every citta. Concentration and attention accompany
each citta, but they have each a different characteristic and different
function. Concentration focusses or concentrates on the object, it is the
condition for the citta to experience only one object at a time. When seeing
arises, the citta experiences only visible object, it cannot experiences
sound or a concept or idea at the same time. Attention turns the citta and
accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) towards the object, it joins them to
the object. It has its own task while it assists the citta in cognizing the
object. It is attention to whatever object presents itself through one of
the six doors. 
When we read the definitions of the different cetasikas we may have doubts
about the difference between them, but one thing is clear, each citta needs
several cetasikas which assist it to cognize an object. Similes are used in
commentaries and subcommentaries. Attention, manasikara, is compared to a
charioteer who sits with close attention on two well-trained horses(mind and
object) as regards their rhythmitical movements... (Manual of Abhidhamma,
Ven. Narada, and see also the Thai edition, book 2, of the commentary to the
Abhidhammatta Sangaha and the Appendix containing subcommentarial material,
edited and translated by Acharn Somporn and others).
When we read, there are many types of citta accompanied by different
cetasikas, among them concentration and attention performing each their own
function. There is seeing, a citta experiencing visible object through the
eyes. Concentration and attention assist the citta, each in their own way,
so that it cognizes visible object. There is not only seeing, there are
cittas which think of the letters, their meaning, cittas which associate
meanings. Thinking is done by either kusala citta or akusala citta. Kusala
cittas think of the meaning of what is read when we study the Dhamma in
order to have more understanding. They are accompanied by concentration and
attention, and by other cetasikas, each performing their functions. There
are bound to be many moments of akusala cittas which think: there may be
attachment to visible object, even before we know what it is that is seen,
and there may be attachment to seeing, we like to see. All such moments are
accompanied by concentration and attention, performing their functions.
When reading the definitions of cetasikas such as attention and
concentration we are bound to wonder what their characteristics are. Is it
necessary to study all those details, will it help us in our daily life? The
Buddha penetrated thoroughly the characteristics of all dhammas, and their
functions, and he knew the characteristics of each of these dhammas
separately, he taught them in detail. It depends on the inclinations of the
individual what he will study and what he can understand. There is no rule
about this. Acharn Sujin stressed that some people study little but develop
deep understanding of realities which appear, whereas others read and study
a great deal but do not develop understanding of the present reality.
When we read about the characteristics and functions of the different
cetasikas  we can be reminded of the intricacy of citta which cognizes an
object and needs the assistance of several cetasikas.
Attention and concentration belong to the <Universals>, the cetasikas which
accompany each citta. They accompany kusala (wholesome) citta, akusala
(unwholesome) citta, citta which is result,vipakacitta and inoperative citta
kiriyacitta. As the universals accompany such a variety of cittas they are
in each case of an entirely different quality. Attention accompanying seeing
is only vipaka, result, and attention with attachment is akusala, thus,
entirely different. We can have more understanding of the fact that citta is
conditioned by cetasikas and that cetasikas are conditioned by citta. The
dhammas which arise are dependent on conditions, they are beyond control.
The study can be a condition to develop more understanding of the truth of
non-self, anatta.
It is important to know that concentration accompanies each citta. It can
also accompany unwholesome citta, akusala citta. In that case it is wrong
concentration. If we do not know this we may believe that just concentration
on any object, even without panna, is the development of samatha.
Concentration in samatha has to be accompanied by understanding (panna), and
it concentrates on the meditation subject with steadfastness. Concentration
in vipassana is different again: it accompanies panna and mindfulness (sati)
and it focusses on one object: either nama or rupa, just one at a time.
Concentration is one among several other cetasikas performing its function
and then it is gone, another concentration arises. If we understand this it
can keep us from trying to concentrate on particular objects of awareness.
Then we delude ourselves and this is counteractive to the development of
understanding. Thus, even if we find the definitions of realities in the
Abhidhamma difficult and we cannot grasp everything, the study of the
Abhidhamma can really help us to correct our misunderstandings about
realities. They are more complex than we thought at first, but it is a gain
to realize this (no reason for discouragement!).
The commentary to the <Abhidhammatta Sangaha> (in the Thai edition) deals
with the difference between thinking (vitakka), volition (cetana) and
attention (manasikara). This passage contains a warning  not to practise in
an unnatural way (in Thai: phid pokketi) as to those dhammas. One should not
go astray and get absorbed in a foolish way.
Acharn Sujin warned us again and again not to go beyond the limits of what
we can understand, we should know our own limits. We should not forget the
purpose of the study: more understanding of the dhammas which appear now.
I shall quote something from the book containing Acharn Sujin�s lectures in
Cambodia:

< Realities are present all the time, also now at this moment. When we study
the Dhamma we study actually realities, but we develop only theoretical
knowledge of them. Dhammas are real, but if the Exalted One, the Buddha, had
not attained enlightenment, nobody would know that what one is used to
taking for self, the world and different things are in reality only
different dhammas> 

I would like to add something about concepts. You find that they are
deceptive. It depends on the citta which thinks of them. Concept,
pa~n~natti, can stand for: term or word, and also for the idea conveyed by a
term. The terms nama and rupa are concepts but they make known realities.
But if we do not develop understanding we shall keep on thinking of the
words nama and rupa, without realizing the true nature of the realities they
represent.
 I have to correct something I wrote to Paul about attachment to the concept
of nibbana, mentioning that concept is a product of our thinking. As I just
said, concept can be a term or it can be an idea conveyed by a term. The
terms for nibbana used in the teachings are right: an unconditioned reality,
the end of all defilements. But there can be wrong thinking of the concept
of nibbana, for example if one thinks of it as a special place where one can
go to, if one speculates about it. There can also be thinking with
understanding of the concept nibbana, as an unconditioned reality.When
understanding of conditioned realities has been thoroughly developed,
supramundane citta, lokuttara citta, can arise, which experiences directly
nibbana, the unconditioned reality.
With metta, Nina.

 
5469 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 2:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] intro and appeal

 
  Dear Cybele and Group,

I am very sorry to hear that your situation is still so difficult and you
remain very depressed.

-- cybele chiodi  wrote: > 
> I am focusing (for what I manage to achieve in concentration) on developing 
> acceptance of my predicament, of my heartache and saying 'good morning 
> heartache'!

Yes, I believe too we just have to accept whatever comes our way.  We don't
know what illness or anguish will come at any given time. Conditions are so
complex. We have little choice but to develop more patience and detachment to
whatever is experienced now.

> I am like bleeding inside and cannot do anything but accept it, all the pain 
> and the grief.
> I believe that depression is never only due to chemical imbalance but is a 
> sinergy of many factors: brain chemistry and psychological issues as past 
> kammic accumulations.

As you say, there are a combination of factors and conditions which make this
moment and the experience as it is now just like that. It cannot be any other
way just as a soup cannot be any different given the ingredients and the
cooking!  Just hoping your soup tastes better tomorrow!

Fortunately you have heard about the dhamma and have some idea about cause and
effect. You also realise that when we talk about being depressed for a day, a
week or a month that there are so many different experiences and they're not
all bad!  ;-))

I've been reflecting on the 8 worldly conditions which we are all so
susceptible to. In the Ang.Nik. (Gradual Sayings), Bk of 8s,1,5:

'Monks, these eight worldly conditions obsess the world; the world revolves
around these eight wordly conditions.  What eight?

Gain and loss, fame and obscurity, blame and praise, contentment and pain...'

isn't it so true that  while we live in ignorance we are overwhelmed by the
'woldly conditions'. At moments of understanding there is a glimmer of light
which helps us to see the danger of being caught or obsessed with them.

> I particularly ask the interest and support from the British members of the 
> list as they could give me precious information about Buddhist centers in 
> London or elsewhere in England that could help me either for the lodge issue 
> as for the search of any particular center that deals with Buddhism and 
> depression and have an specific healing program.

Cybele, I hope that the centre I wrote about to you (the Majushri Institute)
works out or somewhere else. When I suggested that it may be wise not to say
too much about your condition in advance unless they asked, you thought this
could be deceitful. This is an interesting area for discussion which is why I'm
raising it again on dsg as other people may have other ideas.

To my way otf thinking, it can complicate situations and sometimes cause
unnecessary concern if we feel we should mention all our problems in advance in
a  situation like this. I would just be inclined to say I were recovering from
an illness and on arrival give the key details to someone in charge only.
Sometimes we don't know what will happen. We think we willl be incapacitated
and unable to work but in new circumstances it can be very different. I'm sure
there's nor rule about what we say ' when' and to 'who', though.

There is also an aspect of consideration. Over the years when I've been
teaching, there have been many, many occasions when I've been in considerable
pain, but have smiled and carried on, excusing myself for a few minutes if I
need to have a break. I try not to trouble my students about my problems and
often find the distraction helps me too. Even at times of mental anguish - I
once got a long distance ph call about a close friend's death (Alan Driver's)
in the middle of a class - I try to continue smiling and only after class let
the facade down. It may sound deceitful, but I think it's always helpful to
consider the others.

As I say, other people may have other ideas.

Cybele, I know it won't be easy for you, but I also know you have a lot of
resources and you'll get through this difficult period.

With love,
Sarah




 
5470 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 2:16pm
Subject: Re: Heart problem

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote:
> Robert, your original comments are placed between lines of  
> "***" for
> clarity.
> 
> ************************************************************
> The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart
> basis):
> they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart
> "there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a
> pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support
> the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur."
> Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu
> NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather  as the
> Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis
> occurs with this blood as its support".
> ************************************************************
> Ranjith:
> I have read this part of the Visuddimagga written in Sinhala.
> Sinhala
> version used the word "patha" in place of "pastata". In
> Sinhala,
> the 'patha'
> is a measure for liquid which accounts for about 100 mili
> liters. Therefore,
> half a 'patha' could be about 50 ml. My belief is the human
> heart contains
> much more quantity of blood in it at any given time. If we
> want
> to take it
> as it is probably, we can assume that the 'Vinnana' can
> resides
> in the
> hadaya-vatthu' as long as there is half a patha of blood in
> there.
> 
> ************************************************************
> You see the actual hadaya-vatthu is incredibly sublime - in
> scientific measure it wouldn't even amount to a tiny fraction
> of
> a gram. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by
> scientific instruments.
> ************************************************************
> 
> 
> 
> In this statement what do you refer to by the word of
> hadaya-vatthu?
> 
> 
> 
> ************************************************************
> 
> Dear Ranjith,
> What is essential to realise is that hadaya-vatthu (heart
> base)
> is not the heart nor is it the blood in the heart that we can
> see. It is a special type of rupa that is conditioned only by
> kamma and it arises in association with some of the blood in
> the
> heart. In the space of a flash of lightning more than a
> billion
> moments of hadaya-vatthu have arisen and fallen away. If we
> think of heart in conventional terms (and mistake this for
> hadaya-vatthu) we are lost in the world of concept- and will
> not
> understand the deep meaning in the Visuddhimagga.
> ______________________________________________________________
> 
> However, I still can not understand what answers I have for
> following
> questions.
> 
> If the seat of the Vinnana is the hadaya-vatthu;
> 
> 1. What would happen to the Vinnana during the time of an open
> heart surgery
> where the heart is inactive for the function of pumping blood?
> 
> 2. Does the Vinnana get changed from one heart tissue to
> another
> in case of
> the heart transplant?
> 
> 3. Where does Vinnana reside during the period of tissue
> transition (several
> hours)?
> 
> 4. In case of using an artificial heart, we can assume that
> engineers do not
> make any provision for the tiny heart hole' as they are not
> aware of the
> requirement. But we know the person who carry the 'heart pump'
> live
> normally. In this case what happens to the Vinnana?     
> _______________________________________________
> 
> None of this can be surprising if we understand hadaya-vatthu.
> That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the
> suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood
> substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the body
> inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or
> anywhere
> suitable. Vinnana lasts even a shorter time than the heart
> base
> so there is no question of it going anywhere . Actually Melvin
> made an error recently when he said the vinnana passes over to
> the next life. Vinnana has no time to go anywhere- it can't
> change from tissue to anywhere. It arises, performs its
> function
> (depending on the type of vinnana) and immediatley falls away.
> But it conditions the next vinnana to arise. It is this
> continuity that deceives us into believing that things can
> last.
> Even if we think something lasts only for a split second we
> are
> still caught up in vipallasa of permanence. It is all much
> more
> ephemeral than that and so only vipassana that insights (not
> us)
> can understand the difference between nama and rupa and so
> overcome doubt on these matters.  
> 
> ____________________
> Robert:This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada
> rupa). The
> Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term
> pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we
> think
> an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)The actual sensitive
> matter in the eye and ear is very refined. If someone dies
> then
> the ear-sense and eye sense (sotapasada and cakkhu-pasada )
> are
> immediately no longer produced (they are produced by kamma
> only)
> yet one would not notice much outward change looking at the
> eye
> and ear(at least for the first few minutes before
> decomposition
> sets in). The same applies to the heart - the blood in the
> heart
> would have the same volume after death and yet the
> hadaya-vatthu
> is no longer present.
> 
> ************************************************************
> 
> 
> Ranjith:Yes, the 'pasada-rupa' is not the organ itself. But I
> think it is the name
> given to the ability of the 'rupa' (organ) to receive an
> 'arammana' in a
> specific form and translate that into another form of 'rupa'
> to
> send the
> message to 'Vinnana'(consciousness) which is constantly
> monitoring the 'six
> sens doors' for inputs. I have shown this process clearly in
> the
> diagram I
> have posted sometimes ago.
> ________________
> 
> Robert: I'm not sure what you mean. The pasada rupa doesn't
> translate into anything. It arises and performs its function
> which is to be the base and meeting point for cakkhu-vinnana
> to
> arise and contact the rupa which is visible object. It is so
> anatta- so uncontrollable. the pasada is conditioned, the
> cakkhu
> vinnana is conditioned by different conditions, the rupa which
> is visible object (vanayatana or rupayatana) is conditioned by
> different conditions again. All of them so ephemeral and yet
> they all arise and meet.  That is all life is- through
> different
> doors. 
> Because of deep ignorance we imagine that we can control this
> process. Seeing into this process is understanding
> paticcasamupada. It is so deep and yet sadly these days we
> have
> people who can think about anatta or have unusual experiences
> while meditating and believe this means they have had insight.
> Very hard to help.
> _________________
> Ranjith:When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die
> immediately. But they
> don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor
> the sense
> doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after
> the
> death. That
> is the reason for me to use the words "permanent separation of
> the Mind from
> the Matter" to describe the death. However, the ability of
> some
> of those
> sense organs to function normally remain intact for sometime. 
> That is how
> the surgeons use the Eye tissue of a dead person to transplant
> into another
> person, giving the vision to the second one. Removal of the
> eye
> tissue can
> take place even an hour after the death. I am aware of a
> situations where a
> medical team has recovered eyes of a dead man few hours after
> his death as
> the man died at home and relatives did not call the nearest
> Eye
> Bank for
> hours.
> 
> _________________
> This is mixing conventional thinking with Dhamma and so
> confusions occur.
> You write "When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die
> immediately. But they
> don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor
> the sense
> doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after
> the
> death."
> No. Immediately after cuticitta (death consciousness) arises
> (not even a split second delay)there are no more of any of the
> sense bases. They are all produced by kamma and already
> patisandicitta has arisen in a new existence - maybe in
> another
> world and another plane far from here. 
> But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the
> pasada
> arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not
> conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a
> support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma.
> That
> is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please
> ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and
> the
> sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging
> that there is to concept and story. I'll leave the rest of
> your
> post for now.
> 
> robert
> 



 
5471 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 3:04pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions- C.L.

 
  Dear C.L.,

I'm enjoying your keen interest and questions. Sorry i'm sometimes slow in
replying.

 wrote: 

>   I get your point but I have a further
> question... say someone I care is not the same faith or rather not seeing
> what we are seeing... and doing some practise that are not in accordance to
> the precepts.... and knowing the Dhamma we can know the implications of this
> action's kamma be it good or bad.... usually it is the bad that gets us
> worried and troubled.... I know this is attachment to one thing or the
> other...... I know that this is the attachment of wanting our spouse to have
> better kamma... maybe better planes of existence... or maybe a better
> ripening of good kamma.. ( I hope I didn't confuse you as I try to avoid too
> much of Pali words.. I have no reference at the moment )

I understand your concerns. As we know, only a sotapanna will keep the precepts
perfectly without wavering under any circumstances. Unless there is
understanding of the danger of unwholesome actions, there won't be any real
change. I don't think the reason for abstaining from unwholesomeness should be
the concern about future results so much as knowing how destructive 'our'
unwholesome mental states and deeds are at this moment.  

Perhaps it would be more helpful to encourage your wife's (?) wholesome deeds
and actions and to appreciate these rather than having aversion or worry about
the unwholesome ones. This may be more encouraging to her. What do you think?

In the end, we can only develop our own understanding and help others as best
we can. I remember one of  Khun Sujin's sisters used to have very little
interest in dhamma and used to swat mosquitoes and other insects in her home.
Later after her husband died, she began to listen to her sister talking about
the dhamma a lot and I noticed she no longer hurt the poor little insects!  We
cannot force another to share our interest and sometimes our attachment is a
real obstacle to their interest.

> 	 I am still confuse at this face up to
> the truth.. you mean me ? what truth ? Is it about mental phenomena of
> seeing hearing etc etc.... ?

So, C.L., what is the truth at this moment? We cling to our home, spouse, job
and  so many, many stories about what we see, hear, taste, touch and smell.
What can really be known now? Does the home and wife exist? What is it that can
be known? Maybe you'd let us know your ideas first. Is it interesting or
worthwhile to know these things? Why?

Look f/w to hearing from you and others!!

Sarah
> 



 
5472 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 3:31pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make
every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of
slowly bringing one around. 
There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _
these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a
Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated
as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life
ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who
holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong
wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the
turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years.
Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he
didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a
pacceka buddha.

We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in
kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview
with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically
by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an
unpopular job. 
When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that
hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem
rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the
consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do
anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we
should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion
or slow our efforts to explain.
I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed
explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to
dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only
that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any
higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana.
robert
_____________________
> 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  I get your point but I have a
> further
> question... say someone I care is not the same faith or rather
> not seeing
> what we are seeing... and doing some practise that are not in
> accordance to
> the precepts.... and knowing the Dhamma we can know the
> implications of this
> action's kamma be it good or bad.... usually it is the bad
> that gets us
> worried and troubled.... I know this is attachment to one
> thing or the
> other...... I know that this is the attachment of wanting our
> spouse to have
> better kamma... maybe better planes of existence... or maybe a
> better
> ripening of good kamma.. ( I hope I didn't confuse you as I
> try to avoid too
> much of Pali words.. I have no reference at the moment )
> 
> > 2. We are very used to thinking of problems in life as being
> connected to
> > other people. 'If only
> > they would understand as we do' or 'appreciate where I'm at'
> or 'get over
> > their wrong views' or
> > 'just be different from how they are'.  In our studies and
> practice of the
> > dhamma. we learn to
> > understand what really is being experienced at these and
> other moments.
> > When we think like this,
> > the reality is thinking, which thinks about so many
> different stories,
> > accompanied (usually) by
> > lobha (attachment), dosa (aversion) or moha (ignorance). In
> between these
> > thoughts there is
> > seeing, hearing and many other phenomena.
> > 
> > The extraordinary fact is that, with the aid of the dhamma,
> it is possible
> > for panna (wisdom) to
> > get to know these realites, the mental and physical
> phenomena that make up
> > or lives. We begin to
> > know what the real problems in life are. However, it's not
> easy to 'face
> > up to the truth', i.e to
> > be aware of realities, to get to know them as not self and
> to see how
> > often it is the attachment
> > rather than the other person's view that is the problem. 
> > 
> 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  I am still confuse at this face
> up to
> the truth.. you mean me ? what truth ? Is it about mental
> phenomena of
> seeing hearing etc etc.... ?
> 
> > What I meant earlier was that as this understanding deepens,
> it'll be
> > easier to help others with
> > our words and hopefully, with our example. Sometimes it
> takes a lot of
> > patience where a loved one
> > is concerned, however!
> > 
> > Best wishes and I hope this makes a little more sense.
> > 
> > Sarah
> > 
> 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  thank you for answering my
> questions......
> 
> 	rgds,
> 	Loke CL 



 
5473 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 3:38pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions- C.L. & Beyond Belief recom mendation by Selamat

 
  Dear Sarah please refer to the reply below marked by
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  

> Perhaps it would be more helpful to encourage your wife's (?) wholesome
> deeds
> and actions and to appreciate these rather than having aversion or worry
> about
> the unwholesome ones. This may be more encouraging to her. What do you
> think?
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  actually I am not married... Do I
seems to be someone married :)
	I understand your point.... however I still needs to work on
it...sometimes the bad seems too glaring... I will try .. and I get the
idea.. situation similiar to the below passage

> In the end, we can only develop our own understanding and help others as
> best
> we can. I remember one of  Khun Sujin's sisters used to have very little
> interest in dhamma and used to swat mosquitoes and other insects in her
> home.
> Later after her husband died, she began to listen to her sister talking
> about
> the dhamma a lot and I noticed she no longer hurt the poor little insects!
> We
> cannot force another to share our interest and sometimes our attachment is
> a
> real obstacle to their interest.
> 
> So, C.L., what is the truth at this moment? We cling to our home, spouse,
> job
> and  so many, many stories about what we see, hear, taste, touch and
> smell.
> What can really be known now? Does the home and wife exist? What is it
> that can
> be known? Maybe you'd let us know your ideas first. Is it interesting or
> worthwhile to know these things? Why?
> 
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  Now I see what you mean by facing up
of clinging.. I agree that it is so... but I somehow lack the wisdom and
most probably the courage to face.. however this is one thing that I need to
do for myself... in the current world.. job home etc etc.. seems to be the
norm.... we can just abandon our responsibilites, job , home etc.... the
question does the home and wife exist... I know for sure in anatta... there
is none... but the now well ... let's put it this way.. I don't see it that
drastic way or should I say I don't want to see it that way... 
	thanks for all your emails

	I have just finished reading "Beyond Belief" sent to me by
Selamat... I must say.. it is quite "piercing" into Christianity... very
sharp indeed.... any christian will defend till the end ... with that
tone.... however ths book did point out very interesting thing about the
Bible.....

	Rgds,
	Loke CL


 
5474 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 5:30pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions

 
  > -----Original Message-----
> From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> 
>  Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make
> every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of
> slowly bringing one around. 
> There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _
> these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a
> Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated
> as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life
> ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who
> holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong
> wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the
> turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years.
> Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he
> didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a
> pacceka buddha.
> 
> We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in
> kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview
> with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically
> by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an
> unpopular job. 
> When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that
> hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem
> rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the
> consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do
> anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we
> should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion
> or slow our efforts to explain.
> I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
> disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed
> explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to
> dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only
> that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any
> higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana.
> robert
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  robert I agree with your views ... and
I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give example of
the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince the wrong
viewed party ?thank you in advance

	Loke CL

 
 
5475 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: intro and appeal

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> Cybele, I hope that the centre I wrote about to you (the Majushri 
Institute)
> works out or somewhere else.

I'll state some reservations I have about this particular center. The 
NKT has a history of actively picketing the Dalai Lama and their 
leader, Kelsang Gyatso, has made some ugly statements about the Dalai 
Lama as well. That sort of behavior does not reflect the spirit of 
the Buddha's Dharma in any way, at least not the Dharma I've learned 
so far.

 When I suggested that it may be wise not to say
> too much about your condition in advance unless they asked, you 
thought this
> could be deceitful. This is an interesting area for discussion 
which is why I'm
> raising it again on dsg as other people may have other ideas.

This is an interesting point. The question that jumps out at me in 
all this is, what business is it of theirs anyway? If someone is 
presently in a more fragile emotional state due to a heavy life 
situation, that simply isn't possible on the path (or as a result of 
the path), now is it? The Dhamma means that within a few months we 
become shiny happy people, all our problems solved, all kilesas 
terminated. Seriously. Isn't that the reason for practice, the reason 
centers like this exist: to give people the chance to overcome dukkha?

This sort of intense difficulty is most auspicious. It is an 
indication that a practice is firing on all cylinders. If there are 
not more disasters ripening than one thinks bearable, then practice 
hasn't even truly begun. So this situation is precisely the one where 
most progress becomes possible. Liminal zones like this, "bardos," 
(in-between places) are where all transformation from old to new 
takes place, and these moments, these "dark nights of the soul," 
always presage the most important and lasting changes.

This is a part of the path, this rawness. This can happen when the 
layers of emotional armoring are stripped off, leaving one something 
like a hermit crab that's outgrown its old home--totally exposed and 
vulnerable for a period, sometimes a very long period. This often 
goes hand-in-hand with activation of the subtle enrgies in the body, 
which can lead to difficult conditions in the nervous system 
(extremely heightened sensitivity, etc.). It is a process that takes 
time and patience and favorable conditions to work through.

> To my way otf thinking, it can complicate situations and sometimes 
cause
> unnecessary concern if we feel we should mention all our problems 
in advance in
> a  situation like this.

Agreed. 

> I would just be inclined to say I were recovering from an illness 
and on arrival give the key details to someone in charge only.

Or not even that. Again, whose business is it?

 
5476 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Erik and Sarah,

--- Erik wrote:
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott
>  
> wrote:
> 
> > > 
>  When I suggested that it may be wise not to say
> > too much about your condition in advance unless they asked,
> you 
> thought this
> > could be deceitful. This is an interesting area for
> discussion 
> which is why I'm
> > raising it again on dsg as other people may have other
> ideas.
> 
> This is an interesting point. The question that jumps out at
> me in 
> all this is, what business is it of theirs anyway? > > To my
way otf thinking, it can complicate situations and
> sometimes 
> cause
> > unnecessary concern if we feel we should mention all our
> problems 
> in advance in
> > a  situation like this.
> 
> Agreed. 
> 
> > I would just be inclined to say I were recovering from an
> illness 
> and on arrival give the key details to someone in charge only.
> 
> Or not even that. Again, whose business is it? 
> 

______________________

I agree. No need to tell anyone our problems or weaknesses -
unless we have some good reason to do so. This doesn't mean we
pretend to be other than we are; it means be a little
circumspect before giving personal details to others.
Now when I went for my interview at the university I could have
told them all sorts of revealing things. I could have said "I
masturbate twice a week< I thought you should you should know
that" (This is hypothetical). In fact, I put my best side
forward - without lying though.
robert



 
5477 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 8:49pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth Fwd: questions

 
  Dear CL.
It depends on the view people hold. If it is a materialist view
then it is often held by well-educated people. They get much
support from the dominant scientific ideas of our age and tend
to identify it with high rationality; and see any other view as
superstitious. 
What is necessary to show is that materialism cannot explain
fundamental questions. It can't explain why you were born in
malayasia - why not thailand. Why weren't you born as a
cockroach instead of a human? This sort of approach at least
lets them realise the limitations of their viewpoint.
One can point our the various conditions explained in buddhism -
that there is no self but that because of certain conditions
this arises and that because of others that arises. If they hear
about this they will know that Buddhism is logical and even more
concerned with cause and effect than science.
 One can talk about craving and how it is a powerful energy -
perhaps they will see that if they can't stop craving now why
should they imagine it will stop simply because of physical
death.
This is just a start.
robert 
--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Robert Kirkpatrick
> [SMTP:robert]
> > Sent:	Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM
> > > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> > 
> >  Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make
> > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of
> > slowly bringing one around. 
> > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci
> hell _
> > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding
> a
> > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are
> rated
> > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks
> life
> > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One
> who
> > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also
> strong
> > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the
> > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years.
> > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however
> he
> > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a
> > pacceka buddha.
> > 
> > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed
> in
> > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview
> > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting
> heroically
> > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an
> > unpopular job. 
> > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those
> that
> > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem
> > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the
> > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do
> > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but
> we
> > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our
> compassion
> > or slow our efforts to explain.
> > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
> > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough
> detailed
> > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough
> to
> > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not
> only
> > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any
> > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana.
> > robert
> > 
> 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  robert I agree with your views
> ... and
> I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give
> example of
> the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince
> the wrong
> viewed party ?thank you in advance
> 
> 	Loke CL



 
5478 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 5:31pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: questions

 
  Dear Robert,

As you have indicated, if an explanation is given in a dispassionate manner, 
with loving-kindness and equanimity, to one who is asking a question, it 
definitely plants a seed that will ripen under the right conditions.  

However, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to become polemical, 
which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, particularly 
outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other people 
sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of controversy 
gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.

Paul Bail

<< I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
 disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed
 explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to
 dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. >>

 
5479 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: questions

 
  Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of these
forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to
our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not
understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna cannot
arise simultaneously - so great to see this.
In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of cittas
are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some
other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then there
is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to have
always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but
unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their
defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they
are afraid of their own reactions.
Most times, as you perhaps indicate, a  gentle response is
needed but sometimes we may write or speak polemically as a
rhetorical device, knowing that it will bring a sharp response -
but also knowing that only by bringing people into a
conversatation directly do they get fully involved. I wrote my
response to CL on dsg because the members here are conversant
with fairly deep Dhamma and so kamma and rebirth is not
disputed. On d-l I probably wouldn't put things so directly
taking account that many members are new to Dhamma. 
Discussing religion with Mormons is great because they are
always calm - even when they disagree. They are good models for
dhamma discussions.
One to one or in small groups is often more productive because
one can get past certain obstacles and carry on. 
robert
--- Paul Bail wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> As you have indicated, if an explanation is given in a
> dispassionate manner, 
> with loving-kindness and equanimity, to one who is asking a
> question, it 
> definitely plants a seed that will ripen under the right
> conditions.  
> 
> However, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to
> become polemical, 
> which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views,
> particularly 
> outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other
> people 
> sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of
> controversy 
> gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.
> 
> Paul Bail
> 
> << I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
>  disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough
> detailed
>  explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to
>  dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. >>



 
5480 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:15pm
Subject: Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear Cybele,

Here's the Buddha's criteria when determining what to speak: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn058.html#criteria.  

I think it would be decietful if one is asked a question, and one avoids or 
represents the truths.   However, there is no need to speak about our 
miseries to others unless the persons consents to listen or asks to hear 
about them.

kom

 
5481 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Pali-English Dhammapada Link

 
  If anyone's interested, Wynn's been kind enough to
forward a link to this very interesting (and fun)
site:

Hi,
 
I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in
Pali and English and it shows how it is translated, it
teaches grammar and give the vocabulary for each word.
It also give the commentary. And also sentence
pronunciation and word pronunciation.
 
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/
 
Wynn


 
5482 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali-English Dhammapada Link

 
  Thanks Mike (and Wyn)

--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> If anyone's interested, Wynn's been kind enough to
> forward a link to this very interesting (and fun)
> site:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in
> Pali and English and it shows how it is translated, it
> teaches grammar and give the vocabulary for each word.
> It also give the commentary. And also sentence
> pronunciation and word pronunciation.
>  
> http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/
>  
> Wynn
> 



 
5483 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dan

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Don't underrate the development of samatha! If a Buddhist develops 
> samatha by observing the hindrances while sitting quietly, legs 
> crossed, eyes closed, this opens the door for insight (but of course, 
> it doesn't mean that insight necessarily arises).

I agree that the development of samatha is not to be underrated (and
neither, for that matter, is its difficulty � but that is a whole subject
in itself).  Samatha is indeed kusala of an extremely high degree.

But no matter how developed our samatha might be, lobha and dosa (aka the
hindrances) will continue to arise in everyday life.

If a person has correct understanding of the development of awareness,
there can be awareness at some level of any dhamma, even these akusala
ones, and at such moments, the akusala dhammas are not "obstructing,
hindering or concealing reality from consciousness".

We should also not underestimate the role of awareness in conditioning the
arising of insight.  As AN X 61, 62 points out, a moment of awareness of a
dhamma (the 4 foundations of mindfulness) is the nutriment for the
development of the 7 factors of enlightenment.  The sutta gives this
summary of the "nutriment of that liberation by supreme knowledge"�

When association with superior people prevails, listening to the true
Dhamma will prevail.
When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will prevail.
When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail.
When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear comprehension will
prevail.
When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, restraint of the senses
will prevail.
When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of good conduct will
prevail.
When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 foundations of mindfulness
will prevail.
When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 factors of
enlightenment will prevail.
When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, liberation by supreme
knowledge will prevail.

Jon



 
5484 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 0:03am
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Jon, 
You wrote:
> If a person has correct understanding of the development of 
awareness,
> there can be awareness at some level of any dhamma, even these 
akusala
> ones, and at such moments, the akusala dhammas are not "obstructing,
> hindering or concealing reality from consciousness".

There is more to it than that. If there is weakly developed awareness 
or awareness at an intellectual level or an unclear awareness, then 
the hindrances are still "obstructing, hindering or concealing 
reality from consciousness". Samtha can help strengthen awareness, 
and that is why the hindrances are said to attenuate wisdom.

> We should also not underestimate the role of awareness in 
conditioning the
> arising of insight.  

That's for sure! Awareness is the name of the game (satipatthana).

Dan

 
5485 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 0:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Jon,

Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN
X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books).

mike

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

When association with superior people prevails, 
listening to the true
Dhamma will prevail.
When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will

prevail.
When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail.
When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear 
comprehension will
prevail.
When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, 
restraint of the senses
will prevail.
When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of 
good conduct will
prevail.
When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 
foundations of mindfulness
will prevail.
When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 
factors of
enlightenment will prevail.
When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, 
liberation by supreme
knowledge will prevail.




 
5486 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 3:40am
Subject: Re: [palitrans] Pali

 
  Sure does, John--thanks.  mn

--- John Kelly  wrote:

> Thank you very much, Wynn.  What a goldmine for a
> Pali student!
> I recommend using the link below instead of the one
> you cited.  It then
> becomes easier to navigate.
> http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading.htm

> Hi,
> 
> I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in
> Pali and English and it
> shows how it is translated, it teaches grammar and
> give the vocabulary for
> each word. It also give the commentary. And also
> sentence pronunciation and
> word pronunciation.
> 
> http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/
> 
> Wynn


 
5487 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 7:55am
Subject: Re: attention and concentration [Nina]

 
  Dear Nina,
Thanks for your gentle and thoughtful posts. What great contributions 
to the list! I do have a few questions, though�

You wrote:
> Concentration (ekaggata cetasika or samadhi) and attention 
(manasikara) 
> belong to the group of cetasikas which are the seven <Universals>, 
accompanying 
> each and every citta. 
I agree that as a universal cetasika, ekaggata essentially means that 
the citta experiences only one object at a time, but "samadhi" means 
something different from than this. In his "Manual�", Narada 
writes: "When it is developed and cultivated, [ekaggata] is 
designated Samadhi." (ch. 2, sec. 9, note 6). This implies that 
the "concentration" that is universal in all cittas is not samadhi, 
that the word "samadhi" is reserved for a special kind of 
concentration. How does Ven. Narada's comment squares with your 
knowledge of these terms?

You wrote:
> Concentration in samatha has to be accompanied by understanding 
(panna), and
> it concentrates on the meditation subject with steadfastness. 
This is surely true to a certain degree. Obviously, the hindrances 
must be recognized as hindrances. What is the nature of the panya 
that must accompany samatha (at jhana, access, and preparatory 
levels)? For example, concentration in samatha need not be associated 
with wisdom regarding or even knowledge about the four noble truths 
or lakhana or paticca-sammupada or yoniso-manasikara. After all, 
samatha is common to many traditions that do not teach these objects 
of panna. Ven. Bodhi writes (CMA, ch. II, sec.8): "Panya is wisdom, 
or knowing things as they really are. ...Wisdom has the 
characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic 
nature (yathasabhavapativedha)." Does jhana or even less sublimely 
developed samatha require penetrating things according to their 
intrinsic nature? If so, in what way?

Dan

 
5488 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:34am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth Fwd: questions

 
  Robert,

	thank you for the explanation.. to be honest it even very technical
and dry trying to imagine the contents of these areas... 
I think to explain these things you stated below would prove quite diffcult
for a non believer.. any short cut ? I know there aren't many in Buddhism
and Dhama.... hahaha.. thank you for your views and advice... But I really
appreciate it if there is another simpler and more chewable chunks of info
to pass onto

Loke CL
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 07, 2001 8:49 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] rebirth Fwd: questions
> 
> Dear CL.
> It depends on the view people hold. If it is a materialist view
> then it is often held by well-educated people. They get much
> support from the dominant scientific ideas of our age and tend
> to identify it with high rationality; and see any other view as
> superstitious. 
> What is necessary to show is that materialism cannot explain
> fundamental questions. It can't explain why you were born in
> malayasia - why not thailand. Why weren't you born as a
> cockroach instead of a human? This sort of approach at least
> lets them realise the limitations of their viewpoint.
> One can point our the various conditions explained in buddhism -
> that there is no self but that because of certain conditions
> this arises and that because of others that arises. If they hear
> about this they will know that Buddhism is logical and even more
> concerned with cause and effect than science.
>  One can talk about craving and how it is a powerful energy -
> perhaps they will see that if they can't stop craving now why
> should they imagine it will stop simply because of physical
> death.
> This is just a start.
> robert 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Robert Kirkpatrick
> > [SMTP:robert]
> > > Sent:	Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM
> > > > > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> > > 
> > >  Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make
> > > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of
> > > slowly bringing one around. 
> > > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci
> > hell _
> > > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding
> > a
> > > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are
> > rated
> > > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks
> > life
> > > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One
> > who
> > > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also
> > strong
> > > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the
> > > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years.
> > > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however
> > he
> > > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a
> > > pacceka buddha.
> > > 
> > > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed
> > in
> > > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview
> > > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting
> > heroically
> > > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an
> > > unpopular job. 
> > > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those
> > that
> > > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem
> > > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the
> > > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do
> > > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but
> > we
> > > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our
> > compassion
> > > or slow our efforts to explain.
> > > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
> > > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough
> > detailed
> > > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough
> > to
> > > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not
> > only
> > > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any
> > > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana.
> > > robert
> > > 
> > 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  robert I agree with your views
> > ... and
> > I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give
> > example of
> > the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince
> > the wrong
> > viewed party ?thank you in advance
> > 
> > 	Loke CL
> > 

 
5489 From: robert 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 11:47am
Subject: Fwd: The Buddha's language - Magadha

 
  ---  Binh wrote:
G'day Amara, Robert K., et al

I have come across para 25 and 30, Chapt 14, of the Visuddhi Magga, 
English trans., in which Bhante Bhuddhaghosa wrote that:

1) the Magadhan language is considered to be "the language of law 
(dhamma)" [Vis, XIV, 25], and

2) there were 101 dialects of which Magadha was one. [Vis. XIV, 30]

In addition, in the "Introduction", Bhikkhu Nanamoli also wrote that: 
"... The Pali language, 'the text language', which the commentators 
call Magadhan...".

For your interest and information.

Metta,
Binh
 
5490 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 0:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Mike

The 2 are presented as 1 in the Wisdom version ('Numerical Discourses of
the Buddha'), so I'll have to check my PTS version when I get home.

Delighted to see you back.  We've missed you (both ways).

Jon

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Jon,
> 
> Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN
> X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books).
> 
> mike
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> When association with superior people prevails, 
> listening to the true
> Dhamma will prevail.
> When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will
> 
> prevail.
> When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail.
> When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear 
> comprehension will
> prevail.
> When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, 
> restraint of the senses
> will prevail.
> When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of 
> good conduct will
> prevail.
> When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 
> foundations of mindfulness
> will prevail.
> When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 
> factors of
> enlightenment will prevail.
> When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, 
> liberation by supreme
> knowledge will prevail.
> 



 
5491 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Jon,

It does come from AN X, 61 in the PTS version.  Woodward's 
translation is quite different though I don't think the meaning's 
changed much--who translated the Wisdom version? (I definitely prefer 
it).  Here's the PTS for comparison:

"Release by knowledge, monks, I declare has its nutriment , it is not 
without nutriment.  And what is the nutriment of release by 
knowledge?  "The seven limbs of wisdom" should be the reply.  The 
seven limbs of wisdom, I declare, have their nutriment.  What?  "The 
four arisings of mindfulness" should be the reply.  They too have 
their nutriment, the three ways of right practice.  And they, control 
of the faculties of sense.  The nutriment of these is mindfulness and 
self-posession.  Their nutriment is thorough work of mind.  Of that 
the nutriment is faith.  The nutriment of faith is listening to true 
dhamma.  And what is the nutriment of listening to true 
dhamma?  "Following afer the very man" should be the reply.

"Thus, monks, following after the very man, when complete, completes 
listening to true dhamma; listening to true dhamma completes faith; 
faith completes thorough work of mind; and that, mindfulness and self-
posession; that, control of the sense-faculties; that, the three 
right ways of practice; that, the four arisings of mindfulness; and 
that, the seven limbs of wisdom; while the seven limbs of wisdom, 
when complete, complete release by knowledge."   

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> The 2 are presented as 1 in the Wisdom version ('Numerical 
> Discourses of the Buddha'), so I'll have to check my PTS version 
> when I get home.

> --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Dear Jon,

> > Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN
> > X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books).
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > 
> > When association with superior people prevails, 
> > listening to the true
> > Dhamma will prevail.
> > When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will
> > 
> > prevail.
> > When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail.
> > When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear 
> > comprehension will
> > prevail.
> > When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, 
> > restraint of the senses
> > will prevail.
> > When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of 
> > good conduct will
> > prevail.
> > When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 
> > foundations of mindfulness
> > will prevail.
> > When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 
> > factors of
> > enlightenment will prevail.
> > When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, 
> > liberation by supreme
> > knowledge will prevail.

 
5492 From: selamat   
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali-English Dhammapada Link

 
  anumodana.

----- Original Message -----
From: m. nease 
To: Dhamma Study Group Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 9:27 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pali-English Dhammapada Link


> If anyone's interested, Wynn's been kind enough to
> forward a link to this very interesting (and fun)
> site:
>
> Hi,
>
> I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in
> Pali and English and it shows how it is translated, it
> teaches grammar and give the vocabulary for each word.
> It also give the commentary. And also sentence
> pronunciation and word pronunciation.
>
> http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/
>
> Wynn
>

 
5493 From: Alex 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Pali-English Dhammapada Link

 
  Dear Mike,
   Thank you.  It's good to hear from you again.
Respectfully,
Alex

 
5494 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 1:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and practice

 
  op 05-06-2001 08:13 schreef Purnomo . op Purnomo:

> Thank for your detail.
> May I ask once again ?
> I mean that however we be smart about Abhidhamma, but we don't approach
> Samadhi(meditation) so we be smart for theory only. My point is practice not
> theory.

>I know, Abhidhamma is important but you have to know that abhidhamma
> born from pracrice/experience. Don't you change, theory then practice. And
> it's most important that The Buddha Sakyamuni have found dhamma on his
> effort and experince. So, we could find that what all The Buddha told are
> based on his experince. So, we can find dhamma not from theory(Abhidhamma)
> but from your effort by meditation. And we must know, every body have got
> experience theirself. Remember, we have the same of goal, but we have
> different way to achieve it. These sentences macth what The Buddha said.
> Be happier, be better everyday

 N: Dear Purnomo, can wu practice without listening first to the teachings?
Is the beginning of the development of understanding  not listening and
considering? We are not like the Buddha who found the Truth all by himself.
We need to listen first. That is: learning, considering, verifying in our
own life what we hear. As you say, everybody has to experience the truth
himself. If we just sit in mmeditation but do not know our own cittas, how
can we be sure that we practise in the right way? For example, we may wish
to develop the meditation subject of metta, lovingkindness, but if we do not
know the different moments of citta we may confuse attachment to a person
and unselfish love. As the Visuddhimagga explains, attachment is the near
enemy of metta. This is just an example to show that there cannot be the
right meditation without learning what the Buddha taught about the different
cittas and other phenomena of our life.
What is our goal? The Buddha taught that only right understanding of
realities can eradicate ignorance and the other defilements. First clinging
to self has to be eradicated. We can learn that whatever arises is just a
conditioned reality, non-self. You say that we have different ways to
achieve the goal. It is very useful to remember that whatever we do is only
a conditioned reality. Suppose someone likes to sit in meditation and
believes that he can develop a calm state of mind. Why is that? Because it
is his accumulated inclination, he has done this before. If this is so, let
him than realize that it is not self who is doing this, only a conditioned
nama. He could also consider what his purpose is and what he comes to know
by sitting. Is there a subtle attachment to calm? Does he come to know his
own citta? Whatever you do, develop more understanding of your own citta,
that is the Abhidhamma in the practice. We have to be very sincere and find
out when we are clinging to the self. Not only when sitting but also when
working, talking or eating.
Thank you for your good wish to become better everyday. How? only by
understanding more my own citta. And evenso, there are ups and downs all the
way, don't you find that?
Many religions teach: do good, do good. Only the Buddha taught the way:
understanding of realities. No matter he spoke about sila, the development
of calm, or vipassana, the development of understanding of realities was
always implied in his teachings. From beginning to end. Only the Buddha
could teach the true nature of realities, only the Buddha could teach that
realities are non-self.
With metta, Nina.

 
5495 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Robert,

I agree with your analysis.  However, I think one of the most difficult 
situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as "representing" 
Dharma.  For example, we are working at some Dharma function and some new 
person catches us with our defilements showing.  Or a relative is aware that 
we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or self-righteous or 
whatever they may make some comment to the effect that "Buddhism can't be so 
good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your disposition."  Maybe they 
are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine they are thinking 
that.  I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a situation, even 
though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient being, and in no 
way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma.

Paul Bail


-----------------------------------
Robert K:
<<Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of these
forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to
our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not
understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna cannot
arise simultaneously - so great to see this.
In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of cittas
are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some
other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then there
is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to have
always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but
unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their
defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they
are afraid of their own reactions.>>
------------------------------------------
Paul B:
,, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to become polemical, 
which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, particularly 
outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other people 
sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of controversy 
gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>>

 
5496 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: intro and appeal

 
  Dear List:

I find this list very uplifting, with a nice balance of theoretical and 
practical discussion.  The nobility, seriousness and commitment reflected in 
the posts is very nourishing.  Just felt moved to say that. . .

Paul B., Lurker and Occasional Poster

---------------
Sarah wrote: 
<<There is also an aspect of consideration. Over the years when I've been
teaching, there have been many, many occasions when I've been in considerable
pain, but have smiled and carried on, excusing myself for a few minutes if I
need to have a break. I try not to trouble my students about my problems and
often find the distraction helps me too. Even at times of mental anguish - I
once got a long distance ph call about a close friend's death (Alan Driver's)
in the middle of a class - I try to continue smiling and only after class let
the facade down. It may sound deceitful, but I think it's always helpful to
consider the others.>>

 
5497 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 2:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pali-English Dhammapada Link

 
  Dear Alex,

Always a pleasure, Ma'am.

mn
--- Alex wrote:

> Dear Mike,
>    Thank you.  It's good to hear from you again.
> Respectfully,
> Alex


 
5498 From: Lim Tai Eng.   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:26am
Subject: In Perth Organised by:

 
  Teoh  at 019-3568879,  Doris Choong at 016-2746447

Oct 12, 2001 � Friday
06:00am	Assemble at KLIA for check in formalities
07:40am	Depart for Perth-Western Australia
14:30pm	Arrive Perth, transfer to hotel
17:00pm	Dinner at restaurant
18:00pm	Transfer to Dhammaloka Buddhist Centre
22:00pm	Transfer back to hotel


October 13, 2001 � Saturday
07:00am	Breakfast at restaurant
08:00am	Transfer to Dhammasara Nun�s Monastery for activities
14:00pm	Transfer to Dhammaloka Buddhist Centre
22:00pm	Transfer back to hotel


October 14, 2001 � Sunday
07:00am	Breakfast at restaurant
08:00am	Transfer to Bodhinyana Monastery for activities
15:00pm	Transfer back to Perth
		Free at leisure
		Dinner at restaurant
		Night activities
October 15, 2001 � Monday
07:00am	Breakfast at restaurant
		Perth city tour
		- Swan river cruise
		- Millionaire�s row
		- Lake Monger
		- Kings Park
		- Fremantle
		- Monument Hill
		- Roundhouse
		- Fisherman�s Harbour
		Lunch/Dinner at restaurant

October 16, 2!
 001 � Tuesday
07:00am	Breakfast at hotel
		Sightseeing tour
		- Caversham wildlife park
		- Swan valley
		- Tumbulgum Farm Show
		- Fruit Orchard
		Lunch/Dinner at restaurant


October 17, 2001 � Wednesday
05:00am	Breakfast at restaurant
06:00am	Transfer to airport for flight
08:50am	Depart for Kuala Lumpur
16:10pm	Arrive KLIA



Limited Seats Only
Booking on First Come First Served Basis

AdultChild with bedChild without bedTour Fare2,250.


 
5499 From: Binh 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 9:04am
Subject: Re: In PerthOrganised by:

 
  Thanks for posting this announcement. I look forward to seeing you 
and other Malaysian-Singaporean Buddhist friends in October (Kathina -
 Ceremony of Robe Offering) in Perth.
:-)

Metta,
Binh Anson (Perth, Western Australia)



 
5500 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 9:13am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions)

 
  Paul,
	You speak my mind and predicament.... I have been caught too many
times in these situations... but what I try to explain is this... though we
may indirectly break precepts be intentional or unintentional or even
circumstantial.... (but let's not get into that) the thing is .... we try to
keep the precepts as humanly pure as possible... we try to practise the
Dhamma as humans with its faults... and sometimes this is being viewed as "
see ... you are not a good example " even in Dhamma... but somehow to the
outsider this is so.... though we may know that there are conditions and
being merely humans.... (sort of not practising what you preach type of
scenario.... it is so frustrating sometimes... I know that Buddhism that
allows for this human fault (or should I say imperfect being) which I feel
Christianity is lacking... the human factor.... 

Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Paul Bail [SMTP:Paul Bail]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 09, 2001 1:41 AM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re:
> Fwd: Questions) 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> I agree with your analysis.  However, I think one of the most difficult 
> situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as
> "representing" 
> Dharma.  For example, we are working at some Dharma function and some new 
> person catches us with our defilements showing.  Or a relative is aware
> that 
> we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or self-righteous or 
> whatever they may make some comment to the effect that "Buddhism can't be
> so 
> good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your disposition."  Maybe
> they 
> are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine they are
> thinking 
> that.  I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a situation, even
> 
> though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient being, and in
> no 
> way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma.
> 
> Paul Bail
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------
> Robert K:
> <<Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of these
> forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to
> our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not
> understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna cannot
> arise simultaneously - so great to see this.
> In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of cittas
> are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some
> other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then there
> is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to have
> always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but
> unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their
> defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they
> are afraid of their own reactions.>>
> ------------------------------------------
> Paul B:
> ,, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to become polemical, 
> which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views, particularly
> 
> outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other people 
> sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of controversy 
> gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>>
> 
>  
> 
>

 
5501 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:40am
Subject: Fw: ScanMail Message: To Sender, virus found and action taken.

 
  ScanMail Message: To Sender, virus found and action taken.Dear Friends and family,
It seems that my McAfee virus protection did not detect a virus that must have been sent to me and that I had unknowingly passed on. If you received a message from me with the description below, please delete immediately. If I have unwittingly infected your computer system, please forgive me for this terrible inconvenience.

Sincerely,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID
----- Original Message ----- 
From: System Attendant 
To: 'Bongkojpriya Yugala' 
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:04 AM
Subject: ScanMail Message: To Sender, virus found and action taken.


ScanMail for Microsoft Exchange has detected virus-infected attachments. 

Place = 
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Delivery Time = June 08, 2001 (Friday) 22:03:55 



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Warning to sender. ScanMail detected a virus in an email attachment you sent. 




 
5502 From: robert 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 0:49pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: egoless being, estimating someone's progress

 
  ---  Robert Kirkpatrick  
wrote:
Dear Paul,
I was just looking up the info. on Mahanama for you(haven't
found yet) when I saw this in the Dhammapada-athakatha and
thought it might be on interest.
It is in Book 1, 13 (trans. burlingame PTS edition p.242.
It is about the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana.
She was already a sakagami (her father was only a sotapanna) but
she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually
overwhemled with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or
unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. Anathapindika visited
her and she called him "younger brother" and then died.
Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha. "Although the
treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion he was unable to
bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he
funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the
teacher. said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come
to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'"
endquote. 
Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was
that his dughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger
brother']. the Buddha explained that this was because she was
already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna . Naturally
anathapindika was relieved knowing that his daughter was thus
now reborn in a better world etc. 
Perhaps what is interesting here is that a sotapanna did not
even know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and
even believed that she temporarily deranged.
If we judge people from their behaviour we can  say "he looks
always calm " But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even
aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for
calmness.
Sometimes someone may be quite agitated and yet still be
acumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are
changing fast. In between moments with akusala
cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be
popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality.
And we cannot tell by looking at someone whether this is
occuring. In the visuddhimagga they give an example of the type
of monk who has tendencies towards lobha (desire, attachment). 
This type of monk walks very carefully and studiously.
He moves beautifully and his robe is always kept
properly and so  on.  It says (III92) "One of greedy temperament
acts skilfully, gently, carefully and evenly".
As I read it this monk has all the outer appearance that we
might expect of an
arahant. We can see that we can't really know about people by
outer behaviour.
We can only know ourselves- and in the beginning the moments of
sati may be so few and so weak that it is not  clear even to
ourselves. If we haven't heard details of the Dhamma and
considered it and applied it properly we can delude ourself and
think we have few defilements. Pleasant feeling and neutral
feeling arise with awareness- they also arise with subtle
craving. 
What is true is that if we are genuinely gaining insight we can
detect more and more subtle levels of wrong view - by discussion
and listening or reading what people say. We can see who
understands the path. Perhaps we find that some of the teachers
we were in awe of in early days now seem stuck in subtle, or not
so subtle, wrong practice.
robert



--- End forwarded message ---

 
5503 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 2:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Paul,
Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in
Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to
the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were
running very late and sarah was showing some agitation.
These friends then said that "this shows how much more
understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same
thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only  got
her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no
concern at all.
Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said
was "they don't understand the path".

You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they
appear. 
I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises
(in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is
sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there
are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to
happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and
felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the
original one".
I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members.
Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so
they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious
(because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not
really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious
feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they
don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However,
to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree,
they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to
view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana).
In the Brahmajala sutta  (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of
views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant
matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a
wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata.
And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere
moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not
killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle
chatter.. no meals after midday....etc.

As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your
outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this.
They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger
forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust
and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no
insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might
appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling.
If they discussed much with you they would know more about your
insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the
buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then
they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe
they would think it is natural - if they understood the
conditioned nature of dhammas.
robert 

--- Paul Bail wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> I agree with your analysis.  However, I think one of the most
> difficult 
> situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as
> "representing" 
> Dharma.  For example, we are working at some Dharma function
> and some new 
> person catches us with our defilements showing.  Or a relative
> is aware that 
> we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or
> self-righteous or 
> whatever they may make some comment to the effect that
> "Buddhism can't be so 
> good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your
> disposition."  Maybe they 
> are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine
> they are thinking 
> that.  I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a
> situation, even 
> though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient
> being, and in no 
> way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma.
> 
> Paul Bail
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------
> Robert K:
> <<Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of
> these
> forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to
> our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not
> understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna
> cannot
> arise simultaneously - so great to see this.
> In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of
> cittas
> are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some
> other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then
> there
> is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to
> have
> always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but
> unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their
> defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they
> are afraid of their own reactions.>>
> ------------------------------------------
> Paul B:
> ,, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to become
> polemical, 
> which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views,
> particularly 
> outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other
> people 
> sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of
> controversy 
> gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>>
> 




 
5504 From: robert 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 3:24pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: Commentaries? was: Visakha

 
  ---  Robert wrote:
Great to hear you say this Binh. the commentaries are later in that 
they were edited by dhammapala and buddhaghosa in the form we have 
now. But large sections of them were in existence in the buddha's 
time and were passed along with the suttas. So in the Udana 
commentary introduction Dhammapala(p2 masefield0 says "since the 
teacher's teaching together with it's commentary still survives and 
the interpretaion thereof of those lions, the former acariyas, still 
stands; I shall therefore, having plunged in hanging onto same, 
adhering to the method of the ancient commentary [poranatthakatha]as 
well as the five nikayas". In the conclusion (p1125masefield) 
dhammapala says "reliant on the method of its Ancient commentary, so 
as to make its meaning manifest, has reached accomplishment".

I recommend any translations(PTS) by Peter masefield (an australian 
compatriot of yours)as he takes real care and often gives the pali as 
well. Also Bhikkhu Bodhi's books such as 'The all embracing net of 
views" and "The Discourse on the fruits of recluseship".
Burlingames translation of the Dhammapada commentary is very easy to 
read. Lot's of others too. Milindapanha-trans. by horner for example. 
We are still missing so many commentaries in English though - it is a 
hindrance and I am greatly envious of Thai, Sri lankan and Burmese 
friends who have these almost complete in their native tongue.
---  Binh wrote:
> G'day Robert,
> 
> Thanks for detailed information from the Commentary. Now, I 
understand 
> that Visakha's sorrow and grief were expanded only in later  
> Commentaries, not in the Sutta.
> 
> Perhaps I should start saving money to purchase the English 
> translation of the Commentaries as well... Any suggestion?
> 
> Metta,
> Binh 
> 
 



 
5505 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 3:51pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions)

 
  Can anyone tell me who this Khun Sujin person is ? Male or Female?
Nationality ? Theravadan or other etc etc... just breif one will do

thank you

Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 09, 2001 2:28 PM
> Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was
> Re: Fwd: Questions) 
> 
> Dear Paul,
> Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in
> Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to
> the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were
> running very late and sarah was showing some agitation.
> These friends then said that "this shows how much more
> understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same
> thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only  got
> her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no
> concern at all.
> Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said
> was "they don't understand the path".
> 
> You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they
> appear. 
> I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises
> (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is
> sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there
> are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to
> happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and
> felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the
> original one".
> I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members.
> Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so
> they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious
> (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not
> really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious
> feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they
> don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However,
> to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree,
> they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to
> view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana).
> In the Brahmajala sutta  (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of
> views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant
> matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a
> wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata.
> And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere
> moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not
> killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle
> chatter.. no meals after midday....etc.
> 
> As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your
> outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this.
> They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger
> forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust
> and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no
> insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might
> appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling.
> If they discussed much with you they would know more about your
> insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the
> buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then
> they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe
> they would think it is natural - if they understood the
> conditioned nature of dhammas.
> robert 
> 
> --- Paul Bail wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> > 
> > I agree with your analysis.  However, I think one of the most
> > difficult 
> > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as
> > "representing" 
> > Dharma.  For example, we are working at some Dharma function
> > and some new 
> > person catches us with our defilements showing.  Or a relative
> > is aware that 
> > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or
> > self-righteous or 
> > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that
> > "Buddhism can't be so 
> > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your
> > disposition."  Maybe they 
> > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine
> > they are thinking 
> > that.  I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a
> > situation, even 
> > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient
> > being, and in no 
> > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma.
> > 
> > Paul Bail
> > 
> > 
> > -----------------------------------
> > Robert K:
> > <<Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of
> > these
> > forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to
> > our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not
> > understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna
> > cannot
> > arise simultaneously - so great to see this.
> > In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of
> > cittas
> > are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some
> > other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then
> > there
> > is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to
> > have
> > always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but
> > unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their
> > defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they
> > are afraid of their own reactions.>>
> > ------------------------------------------
> > Paul B:
> > ,, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to become
> > polemical, 
> > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views,
> > particularly 
> > outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other
> > people 
> > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of
> > controversy 
> > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>>
> > 


 
5506 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dan

You make some good points.  We are in danger of being in more-or-less
substantial agreement here!

--- Dan wrote: 
> There is more to it than that. If there is weakly developed awareness 
> or awareness at an intellectual level or an unclear awareness, then 
> the hindrances are still "obstructing, hindering or concealing 
> reality from consciousness". 

Quite so.  At least, they are when they arise.  Although our days may be
�full of akusala� in the conventional sense, there are still many, many
moments of actual sense-door experience that are neither kusala or akusala
(they are vipaka), and likewise the objects of those moments (which of
course are rupas).  So there are plenty of moments of consciousness in a
day with no �hindrance effect�.

Actually, since you mention awareness that is for the most part "weakly
developed, unclear, at an intellectual level", that sounds pretty much
like me.  But the task is the same for the beginner as for the person of
more developed awareness � the study of the characteristic of the reality
appearing at the present moment.  After all, weak awareness + correct
understanding of the development of awareness = opportunity for more
moments of weak awareness.

Samtha can help strengthen awareness, 
> and that is why the hindrances are said to attenuate wisdom.

Even so, Dan, a formal samatha practice can only account for so much time
in a day.  For the rest of the day (23 or so hours out of the 24)
realities continue to present themselves through different doorways, and
these are potential objects of weak awareness - as long as we don�t rule
that possibility out.

> > We should also not underestimate the role of awareness in 
> conditioning the
> > arising of insight.  
> 
> That's for sure! Awareness is the name of the game (satipatthana).

Yes!  That�s awareness of the present reality, of course.

Jon


 
5507 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:11pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions)

 
  CL
She is the Thai lady referred to in the description page of this group. 
Aged about 75 years, living in Bangkok.
Jon

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: >
Can anyone tell me who this Khun Sujin person is ? Male or Female?
> Nationality ? Theravadan or other etc etc... just breif one will do
> 
> thank you
> 
> Loke CL
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> > Sent:	Saturday, June 09, 2001 2:28 PM
> > > Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was
> > Re: Fwd: Questions) 
> > 
> > Dear Paul,
> > Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in
> > Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to
> > the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were
> > running very late and sarah was showing some agitation.
> > These friends then said that "this shows how much more
> > understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same
> > thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only  got
> > her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no
> > concern at all.
> > Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said
> > was "they don't understand the path".
> > 
> > You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they
> > appear. 
> > I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises
> > (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is
> > sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there
> > are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to
> > happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and
> > felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the
> > original one".
> > I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members.
> > Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so
> > they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious
> > (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not
> > really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious
> > feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they
> > don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However,
> > to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree,
> > they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to
> > view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana).
> > In the Brahmajala sutta  (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of
> > views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant
> > matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a
> > wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata.
> > And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere
> > moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not
> > killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle
> > chatter.. no meals after midday....etc.
> > 
> > As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your
> > outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this.
> > They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger
> > forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust
> > and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no
> > insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might
> > appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling.
> > If they discussed much with you they would know more about your
> > insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the
> > buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then
> > they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe
> > they would think it is natural - if they understood the
> > conditioned nature of dhammas.
> > robert 
> > 
> > --- Paul Bail wrote:
> > > Dear Robert,
> > > 
> > > I agree with your analysis.  However, I think one of the most
> > > difficult 
> > > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as
> > > "representing" 
> > > Dharma.  For example, we are working at some Dharma function
> > > and some new 
> > > person catches us with our defilements showing.  Or a relative
> > > is aware that 
> > > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or
> > > self-righteous or 
> > > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that
> > > "Buddhism can't be so 
> > > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your
> > > disposition."  Maybe they 
> > > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine
> > > they are thinking 
> > > that.  I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a
> > > situation, even 
> > > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient
> > > being, and in no 
> > > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma.
> > > 
> > > Paul Bail
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Robert K:
> > > <<Welcome to the club Paul. I think one of the advantages of
> > > these
> > > forums is that they show us our attachments. When we cling to
> > > our opinion, even if it is right, it means we are not
> > > understanding at that moment - because clinging and panna
> > > cannot
> > > arise simultaneously - so great to see this.
> > > In fact, not too rarely when I explain Dhamma the type of
> > > cittas
> > > are not rooted in metta or wisdom but simply conceit or some
> > > other akusala. Good to admit this to ourself because then
> > > there
> > > is space to examine these type of akusala. If we strive to
> > > have
> > > always metta etc. this can be with an idealistic, but
> > > unrealistic, attitude and won't allow one to be aware of their
> > > defilements. Or worse one simply stops discussing because they
> > > are afraid of their own reactions.>>
> > > ------------------------------------------
> > > Paul B:
> > > ,, I have sometimes found in myself  a tendency to become
> > > polemical, 
> > > which can lead me to shy away from a sharp exchange of views,
> > > particularly 
> > > outside of a one-to-one situation.  In group situations other
> > > people 
> > > sometimes jump in a an angry or dogmatic way and a dynamic of
> > > controversy 
> > > gets rolling whose results are unpredictable.>>
> > > 
> > >  



 
5508 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:15pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd : Questions)

 
  thanks for the reply jon.... anyway anybody read "Beyond Belief" by S.
DHAMMIKA ? Do tell me what do you think ...
rgds,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jonothan Abbott [SMTP:Jon]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 09, 2001 4:12 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was
> Re: Fwd : Questions) 
> 
> CL
> She is the Thai lady referred to in the description page of this group. 
> Aged about 75 years, living in Bangkok.
> Jon
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: >
> Can anyone tell me who this Khun Sujin person is ? Male or Female?
> > Nationality ? Theravadan or other etc etc... just breif one will do
> > 
> > thank you
> > 
> > Loke CL
> > 


 
5509 From: Purnomo .   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and practice

 
  thank a lot
be happier, be better everyday
bye :)

metta,

purnomo

>From: Nina van Gorkom 
>>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidhamma and  practice
>Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:26:46 +0200
>
>op 05-06-2001 08:13 schreef Purnomo . op Purnomo:
>
> > Thank for your detail.
> > May I ask once again ?
> > I mean that however we be smart about Abhidhamma, but we don't approach
> > Samadhi(meditation) so we be smart for theory only. My point is practice 
>not
> > theory.
>
> >I know, Abhidhamma is important but you have to know that abhidhamma
> > born from pracrice/experience. Don't you change, theory then practice. 
>And
> > it's most important that The Buddha Sakyamuni have found dhamma on his
> > effort and experince. So, we could find that what all The Buddha told 
>are
> > based on his experince. So, we can find dhamma not from 
>theory(Abhidhamma)
> > but from your effort by meditation. And we must know, every body have 
>got
> > experience theirself. Remember, we have the same of goal, but we have
> > different way to achieve it. These sentences macth what The Buddha said.
> > Be happier, be better everyday
>
>  N: Dear Purnomo, can we practice without listening first to the 
>teachings?
>Is the beginning of the development of understanding  not listening and
>considering? We are not like the Buddha who found the Truth all by himself.
>We need to listen first. That is: learning, considering, verifying in our
>own life what we hear. As you say, everybody has to experience the truth
>himself. If we just sit in mmeditation but do not know our own cittas, how
>can we be sure that we practise in the right way? For example, we may wish
>to develop the meditation subject of metta, lovingkindness, but if we do 
>not
>know the different moments of citta we may confuse attachment to a person
>and unselfish love. As the Visuddhimagga explains, attachment is the near
>enemy of metta. This is just an example to show that there cannot be the
>right meditation without learning what the Buddha taught about the 
>different
>cittas and other phenomena of our life.
>What is our goal? The Buddha taught that only right understanding of
>realities can eradicate ignorance and the other defilements. First clinging
>to self has to be eradicated. We can learn that whatever arises is just a
>conditioned reality, non-self. You say that we have different ways to
>achieve the goal. It is very useful to remember that whatever we do is only
>a conditioned reality. Suppose someone likes to sit in meditation and
>believes that he can develop a calm state of mind. Why is that? Because it
>is his accumulated inclination, he has done this before. If this is so, let
>him than realize that it is not self who is doing this, only a conditioned
>nama. He could also consider what his purpose is and what he comes to know
>by sitting. Is there a subtle attachment to calm? Does he come to know his
>own citta? Whatever you do, develop more understanding of your own citta,
>that is the Abhidhamma in the practice. We have to be very sincere and find
>out when we are clinging to the self. Not only when sitting but also when
>working, talking or eating.
>Thank you for your good wish to become better everyday. How? only by
>understanding more my own citta. And evenso, there are ups and downs all 
>the
>way, don't you find that?
>Many religions teach: do good, do good. Only the Buddha taught the way:
>understanding of realities. No matter he spoke about sila, the development
>of calm, or vipassana, the development of understanding of realities was
>always implied in his teachings. From beginning to end. Only the Buddha
>could teach the true nature of realities, only the Buddha could teach that
>realities are non-self.
>With metta, Nina.
>


 
5510 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 4:38pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Mike

--- m. nease wrote: > Jon,
> 
> It does come from AN X, 61 in the PTS version.  Woodward's 
> translation is quite different though I don't think the meaning's 
> changed much--who translated the Wisdom version? (I definitely prefer 
> it).  

Thanks for pointing out (off-list) my mistake here.  For the benefit of
all, the translation 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' is published by
AltaMira and is a translation by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera (for BPS, many
years ago) revised and supplemented by Bhikkhu Bodhi.  Although it
contains only a small selection of the Anguttara Nikaya suttas, is is a
useful book to have.

Here's the PTS for comparison:
> 
> "Release by knowledge, monks, I declare has its nutriment , it is not 
> without nutriment.  And what is the nutriment of release by 
> knowledge?  "The seven limbs of wisdom" should be the reply.  The 
> seven limbs of wisdom, I declare, have their nutriment.  What?  "The 
> four arisings of mindfulness" should be the reply.  They too have 
> their nutriment, the three ways of right practice.  And they, control 
> of the faculties of sense.  The nutriment of these is mindfulness and 
> self-posession.  Their nutriment is thorough work of mind.  Of that 
> the nutriment is faith.  The nutriment of faith is listening to true 
> dhamma.  And what is the nutriment of listening to true 
> dhamma?  "Following afer the very man" should be the reply.
> 
> "Thus, monks, following after the very man, when complete, completes 
> listening to true dhamma; listening to true dhamma completes faith; 
> faith completes thorough work of mind; and that, mindfulness and self-
> posession; that, control of the sense-faculties; that, the three 
> right ways of practice; that, the four arisings of mindfulness; and 
> that, the seven limbs of wisdom; while the seven limbs of wisdom, 
> when complete, complete release by knowledge."   

Thanks for quoting this.  I think I agree with you about the preferred
version.  Bh. Bodhi's translations are more accessible than most of the
earlier ones.

Jon

> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> > The 2 are presented as 1 in the Wisdom version ('Numerical 
> > Discourses of the Buddha'), so I'll have to check my PTS version 
> > when I get home.
> 
> > --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote: > Dear Jon,
> 
> > > Outstanding quote, thanks--does this also come from AN
> > > X 61, 62? (I'm away from my books).
> > > 
> > > mike
> > > 
> > > --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > > 
> > > When association with superior people prevails, 
> > > listening to the true
> > > Dhamma will prevail.
> > > When listening to the true Dhamma prevails, faith will
> > > 
> > > prevail.
> > > When faith prevails, proper attention will prevail.
> > > When proper attention prevails, mindfulness and clear 
> > > comprehension will
> > > prevail.
> > > When mindfulness and clear comprehension prevails, 
> > > restraint of the senses
> > > will prevail.
> > > When restraint of the senses prevails, the 3 ways of 
> > > good conduct will
> > > prevail.
> > > When the 3 ways of good conduct prevail, the 4 
> > > foundations of mindfulness
> > > will prevail.
> > > When the 4 foundations of mindfulness prevail, the 7 
> > > factors of
> > > enlightenment will prevail.
> > > When the 7 factors of enlightenment prevail, 
> > > liberation by supreme
> > > knowledge will prevail.
> 



 
5511 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 3:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Hi, Robert (and Paul) -

In a message dated 6/9/01 2:29:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> Dear Paul,
> Sarah told me a story. When she was staying with friends in
> Australia (old students of khun Sujin), they were taking her to
> the airport to catch a flight back to hong kong. They were
> running very late and sarah was showing some agitation.
> These friends then said that "this shows how much more
> understanding Sujin has"; because a few months earlier the same
> thing happened when Sujin was visiting Australia -they only  got
> her on the flight with minutes to spare. BUT Sujin showed no
> concern at all.
> Later on when Sarah commented on this to Khun Sujin all she said
> was "they don't understand the path".
> 
> You see we can't tell someones understanding by how calm they
> appear. 
> I can't be surprised or even much disapointed when anger arises
> (in myself or others) as it seems such a natural thing. It is
> sankhara dhamma , conditioned phenomena, it arises because there
> are the right coincidence of paccaya (conditions) for this to
> happen. In earlier days I would have tried to do something, and
> felt guilty, but this is 'putting an extra head on top of the
> original one".
> I have had the benefit of knowing many different cult members.
> Some of them have the idea that they should always be happy - so
> they always act happy. or some think thye should act serious
> (because of dukkha) so they act serious. Actually it is not
> really an act as they aim towards happy feeling or serious
> feeling and so build up the conditions for this. Of course they
> don't always succeed but they head in such directions. However,
> to my thinking although they keep outward sila to a high degree,
> they don't have insight into real Dhamma. They are clinging to
> view and self , to virtue and ritual . (silabataupadana).
> In the Brahmajala sutta  (trans. Bodhi All embracing net of
> views p56) "It is bhikkhus only to trifling and insignificant
> matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue, that a
> wordling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathagata.
> And what are those trifling matters, those minor details of mere
> moral virtue?" the sutta then lists many virtues such as not
> killing or stealing, being chaste, no harsh speech, no idle
> chatter.. no meals after midday....etc.
> 
> As your post indicates your friends and relatives look at your
> outer behaviour, they try to estimate your wisdom based on this.
> They don't know that only an anagami has eradicated anger
> forever; they don't know that someone may have suppressed lust
> and anger for their whole life - by true samatha - but have no
> insight into the true nature of dhammas; that someone else might
> appear always calm but only have clinging to pleasant feeling.
> If they discussed much with you they would know more about your
> insight - then they would know that, as a disciple of the
> buddha, you can help them understand life in profound ways. Then
> they wouldn't be so concerned about slips in behaviour. maybe
> they would think it is natural - if they understood the
> conditioned nature of dhammas.
> robert 
> 
> 
==================================
       Thank you for this and the previous post to Paul. They are both so 
clear (as usual) and so informative.
       I think that part of the reason that many Buddhists act in a certain 
fashion, appearing calm etc when they are not so may be an unrealized 
confusion between the fruits of the path and the walking of the path, a 
confusion which leads to repressing various reactions and even unconsciously 
playing at enlightenment. Instead of adopting the attitude that all that 
arises should be attended to nonjudgementally, without adding further 
reaction, we may, instead, try to forcefully repress afflictive reactions and 
even fool ourselves into not accepting their existence.  As you point out 
with the example of anger, various defilements remain until certain stages 
are reached, and all the repression and play acting in the world won't change 
that. The thing is, as I see it, as a consequence of wanting to *do* 
something about afflictions, probably all of us at one time or another, fall 
victim to the confusion between what's required to walk the path, on the one 
hand, which preeminently includes unrelenting attention to, and mindfulness 
of, whatever arises, and, on the other hand, the simulating of the fruits of 
the path by repression, ignoring, and play acting. 
       One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to deny the 
importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An important 
function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination to react 
at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, see the 
inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting it build 
and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the opposite.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5512 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  > You make some good points.  We are in danger of being in more-or-
less
> substantial agreement here!
Uh oh!

> Even so, Dan, a formal samatha practice can only account for so 
much time
> in a day.  For the rest of the day (23 or so hours out of the 24)
> realities continue to present themselves through different 
doorways, and
> these are potential objects of weak awareness - as long as we don't 
rule
> that possibility out.

Right. 

Dan

 
5513 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Howard,
Thanks for understanding exactly what I meant. Sometimes there
is a reaction against this type of post because someone thinks I
am essentially saying "anger is fine, sila is nothing, samatha
is a waste of energy"- (I am not) . As you say, guarding the
senses is part and parcel of the path. It is such a fine line
between supression at one extreme and indulgence at another. The
middle path is one of acceptance and investigation without the
idea of control. Part of the inspiration for those posts came
about after the gentleman, on the recent "masturbation" issue
(d-l), admitted (honestly and bravely!) that he masturbates BUT
that he is traumatised by guilt whenever he does. He is trying
to live an ideal Buddhist life but without understanding. All of
us have such unique accumulations of merit (pubekata punatta )
and demerit (the asava etc.)- they can't be brought to a halt or
rapidly increased simply by deciding that something is right or
wrong. Truly the path is gradual and it is insight that removes
wrong view that should be of uppermost concern.
Vedana is one important object and also there should be
understanding of the moments of seeing(nama) and
colour(rupa)etc.
robert 
--- Howard wrote:
> 
>        Thank you for this and the previous post to Paul. They
> are both so 
> clear (as usual) and so informative.
>        I think that part of the reason that many Buddhists act
> in a certain 
> fashion, appearing calm etc when they are not so may be an
> unrealized 
> confusion between the fruits of the path and the walking of
> the path, a 
> confusion which leads to repressing various reactions and even
> unconsciously 
> playing at enlightenment. Instead of adopting the attitude
> that all that 
> arises should be attended to nonjudgementally, without adding
> further 
> reaction, we may, instead, try to forcefully repress
> afflictive reactions and 
> even fool ourselves into not accepting their existence.  As
> you point out 
> with the example of anger, various defilements remain until
> certain stages 
> are reached, and all the repression and play acting in the
> world won't change 
> that. The thing is, as I see it, as a consequence of wanting
> to *do* 
> something about afflictions, probably all of us at one time or
> another, fall 
> victim to the confusion between what's required to walk the
> path, on the one 
> hand, which preeminently includes unrelenting attention to,
> and mindfulness 
> of, whatever arises, and, on the other hand, the simulating of
> the fruits of 
> the path by repression, ignoring, and play acting. 
>        One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding
> is to deny the 
> importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort.
> An important 
> function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the
> inclination to react 
> at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of
> vedana, see the 
> inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to
> letting it build 
> and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the
> opposite.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    
>                


 
5514 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Even so, Dan, a formal samatha practice can only account for so 
much time
> in a day.  For the rest of the day (23 or so hours out of the 24)
> realities continue to present themselves through different 
doorways, and
> these are potential objects of weak awareness - as long as we
don't 
rule
> that possibility out.

Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does 
samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry 
over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The hindrances 
may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & 
jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue 
during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions because 
of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains 
more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot more 
than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because 
kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that one 
is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise.

One of the things I am sensing in this dialogue is resistance to the 
practice of shamatha. I am curious as to why there seems to be this 
resistance to a practice heavily encuoraged by the Buddha. The 
question I have is, does anyone really believe that cultivating 
samatha isn't important or necessary? Even those stalking the elusive 
khanika-samadhi won't have the conditions to experience absorption 
with hindrances present. I guess I am trying to understand what, 
specifically, is the objection to samatha as a necessary component of 
the path? Again, I think of the Yugganaddah, the conjoined pair of 
samatha & vipassana. Why are these a "conjoined" pair if not because 
they are mutuality conditions for the arising of insight?

Here's my reasoning on the matter. We need to stack the deck in our 
favor in every conceivable way if we have any true desire to awaken. 
That is because it is so difficult and unpredictable in the best of 
circumstances. While it is impossible to "force" awakening, there are 
certain conditions that must obtain across-the-board. And if any of 
these conditions is missing, even the tiniest one, then the 
conditions for lokuttara panna do not exist, and thus, lacking 
conditions, lokuttara panna CANNOT arise. And a person wouldn't even 
be aware that they were missing one or more of these essential 
factors! What I am saying is that this is the only shot we have at 
getting out of this madhouse, as far as we can know. There is 
no "future life" (or if this is a consideration, then renunciation 
has not gone nearly deep enough, because true renunciation means 
giving up even on happy future lives and dedicating all activities 
for the greatest benefit of self & other here & now, as if this were 
one's only life--because for all intents and purposes it is).

None of these things was clear to me before I recieved the Tibetan 
Lam Rim ("Stages on the Path") teachings that teach Renunciation, 
Bodhicitta, and Right View as the three essential components of the 
path. One must look at this to understand why these three steps 
together can be so effective. Renunciation serves as the foundation 
for Bodhicitta (mind of enlightenment--the wish to achieve Buddhahood 
for the sake of all sentient beings conventionally, and emptiness 
ultimately). Renunciation works from two angles (approaches found in 
the Vis.): meditating on the sufferings of samsara, that suffering 
here is without end; and meditating on a precious human rebirth (the 
turtle and wooden yoke) that unless one dedicates all one's resources 
to getting off NOW, the odds of having such an incredible opportunity 
again are in question. 

When this renunciation is fully developed, one will have completely 
given up on getting anything from this world, and then be willing to 
put into practice anything one suspects may demonstrate benefit. 
There is no better support for the viriya needed to complete the 
course than renunciation, because it helps reduce everything to the 
most essential. 

To me, it would be exceedingly foolish to never attempt a meditation 
strategy as central as samatha because one believes it unimportant. 
The fact is it's impossible to go wrong cultivating samatha, even as 
an experiment. The worst that can happen is that one will discover 
that it doesn't work. But what if it DOES work? If there's a chance 
it can help at all, anyone with wisdom would at least give it a fair 
shake, given its emphasis in the suttas. Again, we need the deck 
stacked in our favor every which way to realize the fruits of the 
Dhamma in this body.

 
5515 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Erik,
there are different types of meditation. In the Udana P75 trans.
Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative
grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an
object and on account of meditating on a
characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises
at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana while
the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is true
that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads out
of samsara because even one masters the first they must
eventually learn to study the characteristics of even
jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned
nature of this phenomena. I know it is believed by many that if
one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to then
study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do accept
that all kusala is supportive to some degree). 
. 
If one can attain high states of genuine samatha easily it is
because they have accumulations from past lives towards this. It
is supposed that in these times there are relatively few people
who do have such accumulations. Even if one doesn't have those
accumulations they can be developed; the only thing I could say
against this is that direct satipatthana is even more
profitable, not that trying to develop samatha is wrong. You say
there is no danger in trying to develop samatha. Well that
depends - it takes much time- and one can get fixated on it to
the exclusion of vipassana. If one doesn't understand samatha
one can mistake miccha-samadhi for the real thing. I could tell
you tales  of people who have gone badly astray because of
miccha-samadhi. We should let these things be known - if one
really has the wish to develop samatha to a high degree then
fine but they can benefit from learning about the difference
between samatha and vipassana.
Sometimes the buddha explained different types of samadhi:
Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
Samadhi Sutta


Firstly, is the usual type of samatha we see in the texts:

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from
withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With
the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters &
remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of
composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought &
evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he
remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive
to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which
the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a
pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain --
as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he
enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development
of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a
pleasant abiding in the here & now." endquote 


----------------------------------- 
Here is another type - that of satipatthana:

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is
the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
mindfulness & alertness. " endquote
-------------------
And this type is the type that arises in advanced stages of
vipassana (following satipatthana):

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There
is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling
away with reference to the five aggregates for
sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such
its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such
its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such
its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination,
such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
origination, such its disappearance.' 
robert
 


 
5516 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:18pm
Subject: Keeping the sila (was Re: Fwd : Questions)

 
  Dear ChaiLiang,

This topic may have been discussed to your satisfaction already, but I 
would like to contribute for the sake of reminding myself.  

When we feel bad thinking about "we" breaking the sila, there is no 
awareness and understading at the moment that because there is no 
shame and fear of faults that the infraction becomes possible.   When we 
often think I am this, I am that, it shows that the memory, the familiarity 
and association, and the knowledge about the non-self are weak and 
unstable.  Wholesome citta, such as sila, arises because there are 
conditions for it to arises; unwholesome citta, such as breaking the sila, 
arises because there are conditions for it to arise.  Unless we permanently 
eradicate the conditions for breaking the sila, breaking the sila is bound to 
occur.

Of course, this is not saying that there shouldn't be a development of all 
wholesome states whenever possible.  On the other hand, we should 
remember that as long as there are conditions for an unwholesome citta 
to arise, it is bound to arise.  There can be studying of the characteristics 
of such citta at such moment, and we can find out for ourself why 
unwholesome mental states are not too nice, and eventually why it occurs.

kom

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Paul,
> 	You speak my mind and predicament.... I have been caught too 
many
> times in these situations... but what I try to explain is this... though we
> may indirectly break precepts be intentional or unintentional or even
> circumstantial.... (but let's not get into that) the thing is .... we try to
> keep the precepts as humanly pure as possible... we try to practise the
> Dhamma as humans with its faults... and sometimes this is being 
viewed as "
> see ... you are not a good example " even in Dhamma... but somehow 
to the
> outsider this is so.... though we may know that there are conditions and
> being merely humans.... (sort of not practising what you preach type of
> scenario.... it is so frustrating sometimes... I know that Buddhism that
> allows for this human fault (or should I say imperfect being) which I feel
> Christianity is lacking... the human factor.... 
> 
> Loke CL
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements 
(was Re:
> > Fwd: Questions) 
> > 
> > Dear Robert,
> > 
> > I agree with your analysis.  However, I think one of the most difficult 
> > situations is where someone is (mistakenly) identifying us as
> > "representing" 
> > Dharma.  For example, we are working at some Dharma function and 
some new 
> > person catches us with our defilements showing.  Or a relative is 
aware
> > that 
> > we are studying Dharma; so when we become irritable or self-
righteous or 
> > whatever they may make some comment to the effect that "Buddhism 
can't be
> > so 
> > good, since it doesn't seem to have improved your disposition."  
Maybe
> > they 
> > are too nice to say it, but we (rightly or wrongly) imagine they are
> > thinking 
> > that.  I find myself feeling really hypocritical in such a situation, even
> > 
> > though I am well aware that I am just an ordinary sentient being, and 
in
> > no 
> > way do I want to hold myself out as a poster child for Dharma.
> > 
> > Paul Bail
> > 
> > 
> >

 
5517 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> there are different types of meditation.

Hi Robert,

No disagreement from me on this.

> In the Udana P75 trans.
> Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative
> grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an
> object and on account of meditating on a
> characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises
> at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana while
> the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is true
> that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads out
> of samsara because even one masters the first they must
> eventually learn to study the characteristics of even
> jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned
> nature of this phenomena. I know it is believed by many that if
> one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to then
> study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do accept
> that all kusala is supportive to some degree). 

There is again no disagreement on the fact that only vipassana leads 
out of samsara. However, what are the conditions for true vipassana 
to arise? I really believe this is the central point of this debate, 
that there is some disagreement on the importance of suppressing the 
hindrances as a prerequisite for insight. My point with samatha is 
that it does quell mental disturbances and "tightens" concentration 
and mindfulness, which can only be of benefit for any sort of 
vipassana. It's a "stacking the deck" issue again. If there are too 
many disturbances in the mind, there is no way even khanika-samadhi 
can arise. How many here have khanika-samadhi all the time? I know I 
don't (in fact one of the big reasons I went to Thailand was for 
instructions on this particular type of practice, as it is totally 
nonexistent in Tibetan Buddhism). I have also been practicing this 
type of insight outside of seated meditation for years, investigating 
the characteristics of dhammas. I have found for myself the different 
between having samatha as a component vs. lacking samatha as a 
component is like night and day. Vipassana is SO much easier for me 
to cultivate when the hindrances are suppressed. This leaves mne to 
concentrate on the arammana, not on fighting mental disturbances. 
It's a matter of freeing up energy, I think. If there is too many 
hindrances present, mental energy is consumed by them, leaving 
nothing left over to penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas.

Samatha, to me, is like a magnifying glass, which takes the light of 
insight and uses it to focus on arammana with enough force to 
completely penetrate the lakkhana. This requires enormous 
concentration, and any diffusion of energies at this point will 
prevent the deeper levels of vipassana-nana from arising.

> If one can attain high states of genuine samatha easily it is
> because they have accumulations from past lives towards this. It
> is supposed that in these times there are relatively few people
> who do have such accumulations. 

I also find this questionable, given the number of practitioners who 
do this exclusively (and I include all Mahayana), so I am not at all 
certain the basis for this view. The numbers of those with the 
accumulations for samatha says otherwise.

> Even if one doesn't have those
> accumulations they can be developed; 

Exactly.

> the only thing I could say
> against this is that direct satipatthana is even more
> profitable, not that trying to develop samatha is wrong. 

"More profitable." Yes, but one must have satipatthana in the first 
place! How can satipatthana arise when the mind is afflicted by the 
hindrances? How many here have true satipatthana? Again, my point is, 
if one can honestly say that all this practice has not led to the 
insight penetrating the characteristics of dhammas, then there is 
obviously some set of conditions missing that must be addressed. It 
is simply impossible to understand how effective samatha is at 
suppressing the nivaranas unless one has had some success with it. It 
is a really big deal to be free from these afflictions, because only 
in that narrow window of freedom from the hindrances can true insight 
arise.

> You say
> there is no danger in trying to develop samatha. Well that
> depends - it takes much time- and one can get fixated on it to
> the exclusion of vipassana. 

I agree. However, when is it time to pursue vipassana? Before one has 
studied the Dharma in some depth? Before one knows what one is 
supposed to be looking for? It is possible to become fixated on 
samatha. But look, if one is under the guidance of an experienced 
teacher, is this really much of a danger? What about the "danger" of 
investigating dhammas without the appropriate understanding? It is 
easy to think one has insight when one does not. That is why the ten 
corruptions of insight are listed at all.

Most beginners are started on samatha in my tradition. This provides 
the foundation for deeper levels of awareness to arise. We have to 
look at this dispassionately, mechanistically, in terms of cause-and-
effect. The fact is the presence of the hindrances WILL block 
insight, as Dan noted in earlier posts. This is not in dispute.

> If one doesn't understand samatha
> one can mistake miccha-samadhi for the real thing. I could tell
> you tales  of people who have gone badly astray because of
> miccha-samadhi. 

I know, I've had experience of developing miccha-samadhi myself, and 
that is a nasty habit to break. That is why the instructions of 
noting mental scattering and mental sinking are so important, and 
correcting for these problems as they arise in the course of 
meditation. The greatest enemy for me has been "subtle laxity," a 
sort of dullness that mistakes dull attention to an object for appana.

This is why all sorts of prescriptive practices exist, to counteract 
these tendencies. Anyone pursuing jhana meditaion must be trained in 
this anyway.

> We should let these things be known - if one
> really has the wish to develop samatha to a high degree then
> fine but they can benefit from learning about the difference
> between samatha and vipassana.

I think we are doing a good job of clearly distinguishing between the 
two here.

Robert, as always, enjoy your great stuff, and look forward to more.

 
5518 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 10:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Howard,

--- Howard wrote:

> An important 
> function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch
> the inclination to react 
> at an early stage, ideally at the point of the
> arising of vedana, see the 
> inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as
> opposed to letting it build 
> and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is
> just the opposite.

I agree (with all the preceding too) and very well
said.  A couple of minor points:

I think that our conventional sense of the experience
described above is 'something like, 'Since I recognize
this (akusala) for what it is, I'll let it go, rather
than acting on it further (mentally, verbally or
physically)'--when what's happening ultimately is that
awareness, cognition, understanding and so on have
already arisen and subsided many times before these
thoughts have arisen, and the akusala has already been
supplanted by these and many other subsequent
activities (often including bliss e.g.).  The danger
of this (in my case) is that it's easy to fall into
the habit (back to speaking conventionally) of
supplanting akusala-with-displeasure with
akusala-with-delight; mistaking the latter for kusala;
and, of course, taking them all three for my doing',
strengthening self-view, conceit and so on.  This is a
huge problem for a great many Buddhists I've known
(myself included).

Though the driving out of akusala even by real kusala
isn't repression, it is still suppression in the sense
that it has no (or rather infinitesimally
little)effect on the underlying habitual tendency.  I
think this is key to understanding the otherwise
inexplicably obdurate nature of what we perceive as
personality (I believe this agrees with what you said
above). 

On a personal and very conventional note, 'I'm'
habituated to a lot of kusala reflections just because
some akusala is overtly painful and they make for a
much more 'pleasant abiding here and now'.  It's a
kind of misuse, really, but I'm not about to stop (or
maybe not until real understanding replaces them).

Finally, to repeat what you said, 'None of the 
preceding is to deny the importance of guarding the
senses and exercising right effort'.  Personally I
think it's very valuable, without discounting the
conventional view (as this is the way the Buddha
usually taught), to distinguish carefully between the
conventional and the ultimate, most especially where
self-view is concerned.

mike     


 
5519 From: cybele chiodi   
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal

 
  Thank you Kom, much appreciated.
For this and everything else; I am grateful.

Metta
Cybele


>From: "Kom Tukovinit" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: intro and appeal
>Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 14:15:34 -0000
>
>Dear Cybele,
>
>Here's the Buddha's criteria when determining what to speak:
>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn058.html#criteria.
>
>I think it would be decietful if one is asked a question, and one avoids or
>represents the truths.   However, there is no need to speak about our
>miseries to others unless the persons consents to listen or asks to hear
>about them.
>
>kom
>


 

 
5520 From: Dan 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:20am
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Rob:
> > In the Udana P75 trans.
> > Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative
> > grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an
> > object and on account of meditating on a
> > characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises
> > at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana while
> > the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is true
> > that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads out
> > of samsara because even one masters the first they must
> > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even
> > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned
> > nature of this phenomena. 

Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that arises at the 
present moment"?

Rob:
> >I know it is believed by many that if
> > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to then
> > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do accept
> > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). 

There is no need to have any doubts about this. Suppressing the 
hindrances is necessary for clear insight to arise. If a mind that 
has suppressed the hindrances is bent toward understanding, the 
conditions for sharp, clear insight are greatly enhanced in a way 
that just doesn't happen when samadhi is not as strong. This is not 
to say that samadhi necessarily leads to insight, but it can 
strengthen it. 

Erik:
> component is like night and day. Vipassana is SO much easier for me 
> to cultivate when the hindrances are suppressed. This leaves mne to 
> concentrate on the arammana, not on fighting mental disturbances. 
> It's a matter of freeing up energy, I think. If there is too many 
> hindrances present, mental energy is consumed by them, leaving 
> nothing left over to penetrate the lakkhanas of dhammas.

I find that the hindrances obscure reality, marring the vision, 
attenuating insight. 

Rob:
> > the only thing I could say
> > against this is that direct satipatthana is even more
> > profitable, not that trying to develop samatha is wrong. 

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. It depends on the state of mind at a 
given time.

Erik:
> place! How can satipatthana arise when the mind is afflicted by the 
> hindrances? 

Surely, a weak, attenuated insight can arise, but a sharp, 
penetrating insight cannot.

Rob:
> > You say
> > there is no danger in trying to develop samatha. Well that
> > depends - it takes much time- and one can get fixated on it to
> > the exclusion of vipassana. 

Practice vipassana. When samadhi is weak, recognize it and cultivate 
samadhi. 

Dan

 
5521 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Rob:
> > > In the Udana P75 trans.
> > > Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative
> > > grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on
> an
> > > object and on account of meditating on a
> > > characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that
> arises
> > > at the present moment. The latter is the path of vipassana
> while
> > > the former takes one of the 40 objects of samatha. It is
> true
> > > that both are greatly encouraged but only the latter leads
> out
> > > of samsara because even one masters the first they must
> > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even
> > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned
> > > nature of this phenomena. 
> 
>DAN: Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that arises
at
> the 
> present moment"?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?
___________
> 
> Rob:
> > >I know it is believed by many that if
> > > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to
> then
> > > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do
> accept
> > > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). 
> 
> There is no need to have any doubts about this. Suppressing
> the 
> hindrances is necessary for clear insight to arise. If a mind
> that 
> has suppressed the hindrances is bent toward understanding,
> the 
> conditions for sharp, clear insight are greatly enhanced in a
> way 
> that just doesn't happen when samadhi is not as strong. This
> is not 
> to say that samadhi necessarily leads to insight, but it can 
> strengthen it. 
> 
______________________

Could you explain what samadhi is as you see it and how you get
it. What object do you use?


robert


 
5522 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Mike,

What you have written is an interesting response to an interesting 
thread.  Could you elaborate and clarify what you mean in the 
following:

"Personally I think it's very valuable, without discounting the
conventional view (as this is the way the Buddhausually taught), to 
distinguish carefully between the conventional and the ultimate, most 
especially where self-view is concerned."

Also, you said: "Though the driving out of akusala even by real 
kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in the sense
that it has no (or rather infinitesimally little)effect on the 
underlying habitual tendency."

So, in your understanding, what is it that roots out the habitual 
tendency?

Looking forward to reading your reply,

Paul Bail



--- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> 
> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> > An important 
> > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch
> > the inclination to react 
> > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the
> > arising of vedana, see the 
> > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as
> > opposed to letting it build 
> > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is
> > just the opposite.
> 
> I agree (with all the preceding too) and very well
> said.  A couple of minor points:
> 
> I think that our conventional sense of the experience
> described above is 'something like, 'Since I recognize
> this (akusala) for what it is, I'll let it go, rather
> than acting on it further (mentally, verbally or
> physically)'--when what's happening ultimately is that
> awareness, cognition, understanding and so on have
> already arisen and subsided many times before these
> thoughts have arisen, and the akusala has already been
> supplanted by these and many other subsequent
> activities (often including bliss e.g.).  The danger
> of this (in my case) is that it's easy to fall into
> the habit (back to speaking conventionally) of
> supplanting akusala-with-displeasure with
> akusala-with-delight; mistaking the latter for kusala;
> and, of course, taking them all three for my doing',
> strengthening self-view, conceit and so on.  This is a
> huge problem for a great many Buddhists I've known
> (myself included).
> 
> Though the driving out of akusala even by real kusala
> isn't repression, it is still suppression in the sense
> that it has no (or rather infinitesimally
> little)effect on the underlying habitual tendency.  I
> think this is key to understanding the otherwise
> inexplicably obdurate nature of what we perceive as
> personality (I believe this agrees with what you said
> above). 
> 
> On a personal and very conventional note, 'I'm'
> habituated to a lot of kusala reflections just because
> some akusala is overtly painful and they make for a
> much more 'pleasant abiding here and now'.  It's a
> kind of misuse, really, but I'm not about to stop (or
> maybe not until real understanding replaces them).
> 
> Finally, to repeat what you said, 'None of the 
> preceding is to deny the importance of guarding the
> senses and exercising right effort'.  Personally I
> think it's very valuable, without discounting the
> conventional view (as this is the way the Buddha
> usually taught), to distinguish carefully between the
> conventional and the ultimate, most especially where
> self-view is concerned.
> 
> mike     
> 

 
5523 From: Erik 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:09pm
Subject: Request for Books

 
  Hello kind dsg denizens,

To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English 
translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries (but 
especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, 
Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase them 
myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd give anyone 
who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to give the 
gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home.

The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in my 
bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now becoming dog-
eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of Dharma 
will not be collecting dust.

Erik

 
5524 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:24pm
Subject: New Book

 
  Dear Group,
I've just, with the great help of david, put chapters 1-6 The
perfections leading to Enlightenment on the web . i'll put the
remaining chapters on later . it still has some formatting and
typos to correct.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm
robert



 
5525 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness of Hindrances

 
  Nina

Many thanks for your comments on this subject and especially for the
reminder from the Samyutta Nikaya that the hindrances must (like all other
realities) be known.  Only by being comprehended can they be finally
eradicated.

I have just come across the following, no doubt well-known, passage from
the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) which seems to confirm that the devlopment
of awareness of the reality of the present moment is the same whether the
reality of that moment is one of the hindrances or not.

"Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms
of the five hindrances.  And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating
mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances?  Here, there
being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is sensual
desire in me'; or there being no sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu
understands:  'There is no sensual desire in me' �
There being ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is ill-will in
me'; or there being no ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is
no ill-will in me' �
There being sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a
bhikkhu understands:  'There is sloth and torpor, restlessness and
remorse, doubt in me'; or there being no sloth and torpor, restlessness
and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is no sloth and
torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'; �"

Jon

--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote: > Dear Jonothan, I like your
post on the hindrances, especially where you
> stressed the relevance of the study of the hindrances to the development
> of
> the eightfold Path. In this respect I would like to quote from the
> Lexicon
> explaining terms of Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, written
> by
> Santi Phantakeong :
> < If there is the firm understanding that the hindrances are dhammas
> which
> are reality, there are conditions for the arising of satipatthana which
> can
> be aware of the characteristic of a particular hindrance according to
> conditions. Then the akusala that is a hindrance is the object of panna
> which knows the truth and in that way the clinging to the view that
> akusala
> is self can be abandoned.>
> I would like to add that if there is no mindfulness, the hindrances,
> ignorance included, can weaken insight. But at the moment of mindfulness
> of
> whatever appears, be it wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala,
> insight
> can grow. There are many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness, but
> these
> moments are conditioned, because they arose also in the past, life after
> life. Can we notice them during the day? There is a difference between
> forgetfulness of realities and mindfulness. When there is mindfulness,
> there
> is no notion of my hand touching the table, but only one nama or rupa
> appearing through one of the six doors. Just hardness may appear through
> the
> bodysense. After that there are bound to be many moments of being
> absorbed
> in concepts such as table or hand. It is not easy to learn the
> difference
> between forgetfulness and ignorance of realities, and mindfulness of
> just
> one reality at a time. Very gradually we can begin to know the
> difference.
>  More understanding of the fact that whatever arises, be it kusala or
> akusala, is conditioned, will help us to gradually let go of the concept
> that it is my akusala. I would like to quote from the "Kindred Sayings"
> (V,
> Mahavagga, Book I, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Ch VIII, the Flood) where
> it
> has been repeated with regard to all the different groups of defilements
> that they have to be fully comprehended.  We read about the Hindrances:
> < Monks, there are these five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of
> sensual desire, the hindrance of malevolence, the hindrance of sloth and
> torpor, the hindrance of excitement and flurry, the hindrance of doubt
> and
> wavering. These are the five hindrances. It is for the full
> comprehension,
> realization, wearing down and abandoning that the ariyan eightfold Way
> must
> be cultivated.>
>    In this text the hindrances are classified as fivefold, and then
> ignorance is not among them, but in different texts they are classified
> in
> different ways. However, there is ignorance with every kind of akusala.
> In
> the same sutta ignorance is mentioned among the five higher fetters
> which
> must be abandoned by full comprehension.
> With metta, Nina van Gorkom.   



 
5526 From: Dan 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Robert:
> > > > of samsara because even one masters [samadhi] they must
> > > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even
> > > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the conditioned
> > > > nature of this phenomena. 
> > 
> >DAN: Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that arises
> at
> > the 
> > present moment"?

> ROBERT:
> Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?

How can studying the characteristics of jhana after leaving it be 
awareness of an object that arises at the present moment? After all, 
haven't the characteristics of jhana passed away with the passing 
away of jhana?

> > Rob:
> > > >I know it is believed by many that if
> > > > one attains jhana first that this makes it much easier to
> > then
> > > > study these characteristics. I wonder about this (I do
> > accept
> > > > that all kusala is supportive to some degree). 

DAN: 
> > There is no need to have any doubts about this. Suppressing
> > the 
> > hindrances is necessary for clear insight to arise. If a mind
> > that 
> > has suppressed the hindrances is bent toward understanding,
> > the 
> > conditions for sharp, clear insight are greatly enhanced in a
> > way 
> > that just doesn't happen when samadhi is not as strong. This
> > is not 
> > to say that samadhi necessarily leads to insight, but it can 
> > strengthen it. 
> > 

ROBERT:
> Could you explain what samadhi is as you see it and how you get
> it. What object do you use?

So many good questions! I am thinking of samadhi as steadfast, calm 
concentration on some "object". It is accompanied by tranquility and 
pliancy of mind. Well-developed samadhi is "right concentration" of 
the eightfold path, which is jhana, but the development needn't be 
that refined to warrant the term "samadhi".

How to get it...I don't really understand your question. Do you mean 
how do I get it, personally? Or how does it arise? Or how does one go 
about getting it in general? Or what conditions are conducive to its 
cultivation? Are you asking about the mechanical, physical, external, 
material trappings that serve as support for its arising? Or in the 
mental processes associated with its arising? Or the relationship 
between the material trappings and the mental processes?

The object...Are you asking about my personal habits and practices 
and experiences? Or about what objects can be used to help cultivate 
samadhi? 


Dan

 
5527 From: Dan 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:02pm
Subject: Re: Awareness of Hindrances

 
  Dear Jon,
Your passage from MN 10 is wonderful, but could you explain how this 
confirms the view that development of awareness of the reality of the 
present moment is the same whether the reality of that moment is one 
of the hindrances or not? I just don't see any comparisons being made 
between awareness of hindrances and awareness of other dhammas, much 
less how the development of awareness is "the same" regardless of 
object.

Dan

 
5528 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Robert:
> > > > > of samsara because even one masters [samadhi] they
> must
> > > > > eventually learn to study the characteristics of even
> > > > > jhana(immediately after leaving it) to see the
> conditioned
> > > > > nature of this phenomena. 
> > > 
> > >DAN: Isn't this reflection rather than an "object that
> arises
> > at
> > > the 
> > > present moment"?
> 
> > ROBERT:
> > Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, could you elaborate?
> 
> How can studying the characteristics of jhana after leaving it
> be 
> awareness of an object that arises at the present moment?
> After all, 
> haven't the characteristics of jhana passed away with the
> passing 
> away of jhana?

___________________

Awareness of conventional jhana is not possible while the jhana
exists. For those who have mastery of jhana, if they also have
the understanding and accumulations for vipassana, there may 
arise awareness immediately after the processes where jhana is
completed. This happens so quickly - considering that in a flash
of lightning already billions of mind processes have fallen
away. We still talk about awareness of the present moment.
No one could control the arising of such awareness but if the
conditions are right it may occur.
> 
. 
> > > 
> 
> ROBERT:
> > Could you explain what samadhi is as you see it and how you
> get
> > it. What object do you use?
> 
> So many good questions! I am thinking of samadhi as steadfast,
> calm 
> concentration on some "object". It is accompanied by
> tranquility and 
> pliancy of mind. Well-developed samadhi is "right
> concentration" of 
> the eightfold path, which is jhana, but the development
> needn't be 
> that refined to warrant the term "samadhi".
________________________________________

What are the objects that are possible?

 Samma-samadhi is used in different ways in the suttas. Is it
always of the eightfold path?
 In the brahmajala sutta the Buddha notes some of the reasons
for Miccha-ditthi (wrong view)"There are bhikkhus some recluses
and bramins who are eternalists and who on 4 grounds proclaim
the self and the world to be eternal. In the first case some
reculse or brahmin ..attains to some degree of mental
concentartion that with his mind thus concentrated (purified,
unblemished devoid of corruptions) he recollects his numerous
past lives...He speaks thus the world and self are eternal...
It then lists two other cases where in each jhana has been
attained but is a basis for wrong view.
____________


> 
> How to get it...I don't really understand your question. Do
> you mean 
> how do I get it, personally? Or how does it arise? Or how does
> one go 
> about getting it in general? Or what conditions are conducive
> to its 
> cultivation? Are you asking about the mechanical, physical,
> external, 
> material trappings that serve as support for its arising? Or
> in the 
> mental processes associated with its arising? Or the
> relationship 
> between the material trappings and the mental processes?
> 
> The object...Are you asking about my personal habits and
> practices 
> and experiences? Or about what objects can be used to help
> cultivate 
> samadhi? 


__________________

As you are a practioner of samatha I was wondering what object
or objects you find beneficial. Do you need to be in a special
posture, or place?
robert




 
5529 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:03am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Paul,

--- Paul Bail wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> 
> What you have written is an interesting response to
> an interesting 
> thread.  Could you elaborate and clarify what you
> mean in the 
> following:
> 
> "Personally I think it's very valuable, without
> discounting the
> conventional view (as this is the way the
> Buddhausually taught), to 
> distinguish carefully between the conventional and
> the ultimate, most 
> especially where self-view is concerned."

The Buddha spoke in most of the discourses in
conventional terms, as if the monks and householders
and so on whom he was addressing were 'selves' with
the power to think, speak and act.  Ultimately he was
uniquely aware that this was not the case.  So it
seems clear (to me) that his conventional (personal)
speech was meant to condition the arising of the
various (impersonal) wholesome states leading to
insight, understanding and liberation.

> Also, you said: "Though the driving out of akusala
> even by real 
> kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in
> the sense
> that it has no (or rather infinitesimally
> little)effect on the 
> underlying habitual tendency."
> So, in your understanding, what is it that roots out
> the habitual 
> tendency?

It is pa��aa (wisdom; knowledge; insight). As I
understand it, the latent tendencies can't really be
rooted out.  They are eradicated in very small
increments by very weak or shallow moments of insight
into the four foundations; or potentially in much
larger increments by much stronger or profound
moments.

"What is the accomplishment of wisdom? 

"Herein a householder is wise: he is endowed with
wisdom that understands the arising and cessation (of
the five aggregates of existence); he is possessed of
the noble penetrating insight that leads to the
destruction of suffering. This is called the
accomplishment of wisdom." 

Anguttara Nikaya VIII.54
Vyagghapajja Sutta
(Dighajanu Sutta) 
Conditions of Welfare

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html

Paul, I'm NO scholar and have only a flawed, sketchy
and elementary knowledge of all of this theory, which
I accept as a working hypothesis.  There are many
others on the list with far more detailed and accurate
understanding.   

Nice meeting you.

mike


 
5530 From: Dan 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 5:44am
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Robert,

> Awareness of conventional jhana is not possible while the jhana
> exists. For those who have mastery of jhana, if they also have
> the understanding and accumulations for vipassana, there may 
> arise awareness immediately after the processes where jhana is
> completed. This happens so quickly - considering that in a flash
> of lightning already billions of mind processes have fallen
> away. We still talk about awareness of the present moment.

Yes, we can talk of it that way, but it really isn't that way. Does 
Buddha talk about this reflection and review of past states of 
consciousness as "awareness of the present moment"? Or does he talk 
about it as understanding the conditioned and unsatisfactoriness of 
jhana AFTER emerging from jhana. I just don't see why we should talk 
about something past as something present.

> What are the objects that are possible?

Vissudhimagga gives 40 suggestions. Is that all that are possible? I 
would think not. Does Vism. or anyone else say these are the ONLY 40?

>  Samma-samadhi is used in different ways in the suttas. Is it
> always of the eightfold path?
>  In the brahmajala sutta the Buddha notes some of the reasons
> for Miccha-ditthi (wrong view)"There are bhikkhus some recluses
> and bramins who are eternalists and who on 4 grounds proclaim
> the self and the world to be eternal. In the first case some
> reculse or brahmin ..attains to some degree of mental
> concentartion that with his mind thus concentrated (purified,
> unblemished devoid of corruptions) he recollects his numerous
> past lives...He speaks thus the world and self are eternal...
> It then lists two other cases where in each jhana has been
> attained but is a basis for wrong view.

The samma-samadhi of the eightfold path is defined as jhana. And 
jhana is kusala. If wrong view arises in one who misinterprets jhana, 
can jhana be said to be a BASIS for wrong view, or is it the 
misinterpretation, the unwise attention to the consciousness that has 
passed? The latter would point to ignorance as the basis for wrong 
view, not jhana itself.

> As you are a practioner of samatha I was wondering what object
> or objects you find beneficial. Do you need to be in a special
> posture, or place?

Now, this is interesting... I've never thought of myself as a 
practitioner of samatha, and I don't recall ever saying that I do 
this or that samatha practice. I'm wondering how you would know that 
I am a samatha practitioner? Is it because I come to the defense of 
samatha? Is it because I argue that samatha can be beneficial by 
sharpening insight should conditions for insight arise? Just 
curious...

Dan

 
5531 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:25am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Mike

Great to have your well-thought out posts back again, and I look forward
to more of the same.

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Dear Paul,
> 
> --- Paul Bail wrote:
> 
> > Dear Mike,
> > 
> > What you have written is an interesting response to
> > an interesting 
> > thread.  Could you elaborate and clarify what you
> > mean in the 
> > following:
> > 
> > "Personally I think it's very valuable, without
> > discounting the
> > conventional view (as this is the way the
> > Buddhausually taught), to 
> > distinguish carefully between the conventional and
> > the ultimate, most 
> > especially where self-view is concerned."
> 
> The Buddha spoke in most of the discourses in
> conventional terms, as if the monks and householders
> and so on whom he was addressing were 'selves' with
> the power to think, speak and act.  Ultimately he was
> uniquely aware that this was not the case.  So it
> seems clear (to me) that his conventional (personal)
> speech was meant to condition the arising of the
> various (impersonal) wholesome states leading to
> insight, understanding and liberation.

Yes, and he also uniquely knew the (mostly highly-developed) accumulations
of his listeners, including the extent to which they were capable of
seeing beyond the merely conventional.

> > Also, you said: "Though the driving out of akusala
> > even by real 
> > kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression in
> > the sense
> > that it has no (or rather infinitesimally
> > little)effect on the 
> > underlying habitual tendency."
> > So, in your understanding, what is it that roots out
> > the habitual 
> > tendency?
> 
> It is pa��aa (wisdom; knowledge; insight). As I
> understand it, the latent tendencies can't really be
> rooted out.  They are eradicated in very small
> increments by very weak or shallow moments of insight
> into the four foundations; or potentially in much
> larger increments by much stronger or profound
> moments.

Yes, this is my understanding of the teaching also.  And thanks for the
sutta reference that follows.

Jon

> "What is the accomplishment of wisdom? 
> 
> "Herein a householder is wise: he is endowed with
> wisdom that understands the arising and cessation (of
> the five aggregates of existence); he is possessed of
> the noble penetrating insight that leads to the
> destruction of suffering. This is called the
> accomplishment of wisdom." 
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya VIII.54
> Vyagghapajja Sutta
> (Dighajanu Sutta) 
> Conditions of Welfare
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html
> 
> Paul, I'm NO scholar and have only a flawed, sketchy
> and elementary knowledge of all of this theory, which
> I accept as a working hypothesis.  There are many
> others on the list with far more detailed and accurate
> understanding.   
>
>
> Nice meeting you.
> 
> mike
> 



 
5532 From: wynn   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 3:19pm
Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies1

 
  Hi,

Johannes Bronkhorst, in his book, The Two Traditions of Meditation in
Ancient India list dowm a number of contradictions/inconsistencies.

Can you solve this?

1. The Mahaparinirv�na S�tra, in its various recensions, records a discussion of the Buddha with someone called Putkasa (in Sanskrit) or Pukkusa (in P�li). The Buddha here boasts that once, in a violent thunderstorm when lightning killed two farmers and four oxen nearby him, he did not notice it. It is known that abilities of this kind were sought after by certain non-Buddhists. Another Buddhist Sutra (the Indriyabh�vana Sutta of the P�li canon and its parallel in Chinese translation), on the other hand, ridicules such 'cultivation of the senses' which leads to their non-functioning; the Buddha is here reported to say that if this is cultivation of the senses, the blind and deaf would be cultivators of the senses.

The passages here mentioned may not logically contradict each other, yet they come about as close to that as one could hope for in this type of texts: on one occasion the Buddha disapproves of the practice that aims at the complete suppression of all sense-activities, on another he boasts about his attainments in this direction. This situation calls for a solution. One solution would be to think that the Buddha changed his mind about this practice. A more plausible explanation is that a practice that was respected among non-Buddhists came to be ascribed to the Buddha, either before or after his death. This latter explanation implies that the practice concerned is not authentically Buddhist.



 
5533 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request for Books

 
  dear eric,
Why you didn't check the catalog first.We do not have com tran on patthana(text unfinished)dhatukatha,puggalapannati.yamaka com (text untranslated).
i am sorry i cannot help because i cannot even donate some money for ordering cambodia tipitaka

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:09:00 -0000
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Request for Books


> 
> Hello kind dsg denizens,
> 
> To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English 
> translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries (but 
> especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, 
> Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase them 
> myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd give anyone 
> who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to give the 
> gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home.
> 
> The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in my 
> bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now becoming dog-
> eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of Dharma 
> will not be collecting dust.
> 
> Erik
> 


 
5534 From: Erik 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books

 
  --- "Ong Teng Kee"  wrote:
> dear eric,
> Why you didn't check the catalog first.We do not have com tran on 
patthana(text unfinished)dhatukatha,puggalapannati.yamaka com (text 
untranslated).
> i am sorry i cannot help because i cannot even donate some money 
for ordering cambodia tipitaka

Once again, Ong, I appreciate your kind assistance and encouragement. 
You are a true friend in the Dhamma.

 
 
5535 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1

 
  Dear Wynn,

First, unless you believe that the Buddha was not
enlightened, then do you believe that it was possible
for him to 'boast' in the light of the definition
below?

Main Entry: boast
Date: 14th century
intransitive senses
1 : to puff oneself up in speech : speak
vaingloriously
2 archaic : GLORY, EXULT
transitive senses
1 : to speak of or assert with excessive pride

As I understand it, it was not possible that pride
could have arisen in the Buddha as the conditions
allowing its arising had been destroyed.

Main Entry: rid�i�cule
Pronunciation: 'ri-d&-"ky�(&)l
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Latin; French, from Latin
ridiculum jest
Date: 1690
: the act of exposing to laughter : DERISION, MOCKERY 

To infer in the Buddha the arising of a motivation to
expose anything to laughter is speculative, I think,
and maybe a little reckless.

In the Mahaparinibbna sutta, the Buddha describes his
deep absorption to inspire confidence in Pukkusa
according to Pukkusa's abilities.

"'I was here, brother.' 'Yet, Lord, did you not see
it?' 'I did not see it, brother.' 'But the noise,
Lord, you surely heard?' 'I did not hear it, brother.'
Then that man asked me: 'Then, Lord, perhaps you
slept?' 'No, brother, I was not sleeping.' 'Then,
Lord, you were conscious?' 'I was, brother.' Then that
man said: 'Then, Lord, while conscious and awake, in
the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling,
lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, you
neither saw it nor heard the noise?' And I answered
him, saying: 'I did not, brother.' 

42. "And to that man, Pukkusa, came the thought:
'Marvellous it is, most wonderful indeed it is, the
state of calmness wherein abide those who have gone
forth from the world!' And there arose in him great
faith in me, and he respectfully saluted me, and
keeping his right side towards me, he went his way." 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html

In the Indriya-Bhavana sutta he uses blindness and
deafness to illustrate the flaw in Parasiri's
teaching, i.e. the uselessness of absorption without
insight, and to inspire lack of confidence in that
teaching in Uttara (also according to his abilities). 
He then continues to explain to Ananda the correct
cultivation of the indriyas (controlling principals;
faculties--not 'senses' in this case) in the
discipline of a noble one, for a person in training,
then in a noble one with developed faculties:

As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him:
"Uttara, does the brahman Parasiri teach his followers
the development of the faculties?" 

"Yes, master Gotama, he does." 

"And how does he teach his followers the development
of the faculties?" 

"There is the case where one does not see forms with
the eye, or hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of
non-perception]. That's how the brahman Parasiri
teaches his followers the development of the
faculties." 

"That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will
have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have
developed faculties, according to the words of the
brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see
forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear
sounds with the ear." 

...When this was said, the young brahman Uttara sat
silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head
down, brooding, at a loss for words. The Blessed One
-- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed,
his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a
loss for words -- said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the
development of the faculties that the brahman Parasiri
teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled
development of the faculties in the discipline of a
noble one is something else entirely." 

"...Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O
One Well-Gone, for the Blessed One to teach the
unexcelled development of the faculties in the
discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed
One, the monks will remember it." 

"In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I
will speak." 

"As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the
Blessed One. 

The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the
discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled
development of the faculties? There is the case where,
when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a
monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is
agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This
agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable
thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen
in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently
co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite,
i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable
thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable
thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as
a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open
them; or having opened them, might close them, that is
how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what
it refers to, the arisen agreeable
thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable
thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the
discipline of a noble one, this is called the
unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to
forms cognizable by the eye. 

"Furthermore, when
hearing...smelling...tasting...touching...cognizing [etc.]"


 
5536 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1

 
  ...so the inconsistency lies not in the Buddha's
teaching, but in degrees of ability of his audience to
understand.

mike


 
5537 From: wynn   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1

 
  Hi M. Nease,

The passage was quoted from that particular book I mentioned.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thanks for your reply.

 
5538 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:57pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books

 
  Hi Erik,
I think you'll have trouble locating an English translation of Yamaka 
and Patthana. Ven. Narada translated the first two volumes of 
Patthana, but no one has taken up the next three yet. I don't think 
there is a published Yamaka in English at all. I know of two English 
Dhammasangani's--the PTS Rhys Davids 1902 translation (not too good), 
and a new one out of Burma that is in very limited circulation and 
hard to find, but it is a better translation than Rhys Davids'. Check 
with Desmond Chiong for availability (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114056066213193116227102046026176090006098204051043041114242049205015143149). 

I find libraries very useful. The Atthasalini (commentary on 
Dhammasangani) is available under the two volume title "The 
Expositor." Vibhanga commentary is available in two volumes "Dispeller 
of Delusion." I don't know of any translations for commentaries on the 
rest of Abhidhamma pitaka, but Ven. Narada has a "guide" to the 
Patthana that I haven't looked at. Usually, though, his writing is 
good, so I'd guess that his "guide" is good too.

Dan

> To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English 
> translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries (but 
> especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga, Dhatukatha, 
> Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase them 
> myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd give 
anyone 
> who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to give the 
> gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home.
> 
> The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in my 
> bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now becoming dog-
> eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of Dharma 
> will not be collecting dust.
> 
> Erik

 
5539 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1

 
  Dear Wynn,

No apologies necessary.

mike

--- wynn  wrote:
> Hi M. Nease,
> 
> The passage was quoted from that particular book I
> mentioned.
> Sorry for the misunderstanding.
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 



 
5540 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Dan,

--- Dan wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> > Awareness of conventional jhana is not possible while the
> jhana
> > exists. For those who have mastery of jhana, if they also
> have
> > the understanding and accumulations for vipassana, there may
> 
> > arise awareness immediately after the processes where jhana
> is
> > completed. This happens so quickly - considering that in a
> flash
> > of lightning already billions of mind processes have fallen
> > away. We still talk about awareness of the present moment.
> 
> Yes, we can talk of it that way, but it really isn't that way.
> Does 
> Buddha talk about this reflection and review of past states of
> 
> consciousness as "awareness of the present moment"? Or does he
> talk 
> about it as understanding the conditioned and
> unsatisfactoriness of 
> jhana AFTER emerging from jhana. I just don't see why we
> should talk 
> about something past as something present.

__________
Dear dan, In my first post I wrote "there are different types of
meditation. In the Udana P75 trans.
Masefield "meditating (jhayato):meditating (alternative
grammatical form- jhayantasso) on account of meditating on an
object and on account of meditating on a
characteristic(lakkhana)"- ie. studying any object that arises
at the present moment
____
This was a little grammatically careless as it does look like I
was referring to both types of meditation here. When I said
"studying any object that arises in the present moment" I should
have made it clear that I was referring only to the second type
(lakkhana). My reply to you  totally confused things by adding
in the present moment when I should have left it out.
It is good you brought this up. How would you describe
"reflection and review"?
> _____________
> > What are the objects that are possible?
> 
> Vissudhimagga gives 40 suggestions. Is that all that are
> possible? I 
> would think not. Does Vism. or anyone else say these are the
> ONLY 40?
_________
I think it is usually thought that there are only 40. They are
quite wide in scope - such as Dhammanusati, which can encompase
any consideration of the Dhamma done with wise attention. There
are cases in the suttanta though that are hard to fit within the
forty - such as when the Buddha created a beautiful flower (I
think) for a monk who had been a goldsmith in 500 past lives and
then let it fade in front of him. he attained. It could be that
this was perception of anicca . I don't know.
____
> 

> 
> > As you are a practioner of samatha I was wondering what
> object
> > or objects you find beneficial. Do you need to be in a
> special
> > posture, or place?
> 
> Now, this is interesting... I've never thought of myself as a 
> practitioner of samatha, and I don't recall ever saying that I
> do 
> this or that samatha practice. I'm wondering how you would
> know that 
> I am a samatha practitioner? Is it because I come to the
> defense of 
> samatha? Is it because I argue that samatha can be beneficial
> by 
> sharpening insight should conditions for insight arise? Just 
> curious...
_________
 You have said you like the mahasi and Goenka methods and
recently you wrote " but since they conceal reality from
consciousness, even 
moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal
sitting can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise.
Whether it is 
samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two
weeks', 
three weeks', four weeks' retreat, "
I was assuming this reflected an interpretation of personal
experience. I also wondered if you found other ways of samatha
useful . 
For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority -
and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I
wrote an earlier post where I said maranasati(mindfulness of
death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . It is not an
essential but it leans the mind in the direction of impermanence
and gives urgency, it has been like my best friend over many
years.
Also all vipassana afficionados must develop Dhammanusati to
some degree as this IS an essential prequisite.
Khun Sujin has written a book about Metta- (a type of samatha
and also a perfection). There are others that we can do too.

What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these
days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects,
according to the texts. This object does need special conditions
- erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; thus
when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps
seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as
bhavana. Yet those other samatha objects that I mentioned above
can all be developed in daily life in any posture- (true though
that more strigent conditions are needed if one wants to take
them to the most advanced levels)



People sometimes ask me politely "how are you?" but really I am 
fine for the past 10 years or so since realising what the
objects for vipassana are. How can one feel bad - knowing that
bad feeling is an object for vipassaan (of course I feel bad
sometimes but these are  times that I try to cherish as
opportunities to understand that feeling or dosa or the
conditions for dosa) In Buddhism "even the bad times feel good".
Knowing that akusala- that desire or aversion etc are objects
for awareness, that they are simply paramattha dhamma - if that
understanding is firm - means that one can't be frightened by
any of them. They appear more as they really  are. Knowing that-
as the texts say- dhammas are changing so fast, one knows that
even if one is in great fear ,for example, that fear is simply a
conditioned dhamma and can't last even for an instant. It is
because of nicca vippalasa- the perversion of view, that thinks
it(the hindrance ) lasts, and so one is distracted by it and
believes it has to be got rid of before insight can arise. Yet
it has already gone even before one knows it is there - and then
one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new
conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance)
does - clouds seeing these things. And one knows too that there
are different processes such as seeing occuring that can't come
with unpleasant feeling. These things can be seen for oneself -
and so the teachings are being gradually tested and their truths
seen. 
In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for
some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the
hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are
also being understood - at different levels. And this leads
gradually to a turning away from those conditions. 
Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of
permanance and self and control. This is the first stage - that
of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense
pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances
except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview
that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying
to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . 
Understanding them is another way.

However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop
up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of
the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings-
and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati,
one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may
not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in
this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather
looking for understanding).



And strong akusala can arise even if understanding is firm- see
the examples I gave recently about visakha and anathapindika.

Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the
present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for
kusala and that shifts one away from the present:

""There can be just unawareness, no wrong practice. But if one
thinks that one should rather have objects other than the
present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will
never study the object which appears now. And how can one know
their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them?
So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is
more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire
can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's
desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no
understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One
has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha
which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is
lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one
does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from
developing right understanding of the present object."endquote


Nevertheless Khun Sujin does admit that satipatthana is not
always going to occur. She often speaks about other ways of
kusala. She writes in Deeds of merit "This is another level of
kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila,
morality. 

S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a
long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have
calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them.
Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The
Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be
applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of
subduing defilements. 

W. : What are these four meditation subjects?

S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the
development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of
repulsiveness and mindfulness of death.

W. : Before going to sleep we praise the excellent qualities of
the Buddha by reciting the words: Itipi so bhagavaa: -araha~n,
sammaasambuddho, vijjaa cara~nasampanno, sugato, lokaviduu,
anuttaro purisadamma-saarathi, satthaa devamanussaana~n, buddho,
bhagavaa tii. This means: That Blessed One is such since he is
accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with (clear) vision and
(virtuous) conduct, sublime, the knower of the worlds, the
incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and
men, enlightened and blessed. Is this a way of mental
development which is calm?

S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is
the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious
action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed
through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the
level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words,
but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the
excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote
She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. 

I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places
most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that
for those who have the accumulations to understand these that
this is the rarest teaching. 

When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an
object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). It took alot
of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my
life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid
confrontations and many other things (and still could never get
things quite right.) I still like to get away to quiet places
and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there
is not the pressure of thinking I MUST be in such situations. It
seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. 
robert





 
5541 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books

 
  Dear Erik,
I'm tempted to send you one of my books, however stinginess has
won out and I can't bear to part, at least for now. 
Dan, the Guide to Conditions by Narada is first rate a real boon
to have. Note that this Narada is the Burmese one not the sri
lankan Narada who translated the Abhidhammamatthasangaha
robert
--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote:
> Hi Erik,
> I think you'll have trouble locating an English translation of
> Yamaka 
> and Patthana. Ven. Narada translated the first two volumes of 
> Patthana, but no one has taken up the next three yet. I don't
> think 
> there is a published Yamaka in English at all. I know of two
> English 
> Dhammasangani's--the PTS Rhys Davids 1902 translation (not too
> good), 
> and a new one out of Burma that is in very limited circulation
> and 
> hard to find, but it is a better translation than Rhys
> Davids'. Check 
> with Desmond Chiong for availability
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114056066213193116227102046026176090006098204051043041114242049205015143149). 
> 
> I find libraries very useful. The Atthasalini (commentary on 
> Dhammasangani) is available under the two volume title "The 
> Expositor." Vibhanga commentary is available in two volumes
> "Dispeller 
> of Delusion." I don't know of any translations for
> commentaries on the 
> rest of Abhidhamma pitaka, but Ven. Narada has a "guide" to
> the 
> Patthana that I haven't looked at. Usually, though, his
> writing is 
> good, so I'd guess that his "guide" is good too.
> 
> Dan
> 
> > To further my studies I am looking to acquire any English 
> > translations of the Abhidharma Pitaka or any commentaries
> (but 
> > especially key would be the Dhammasangani, Vibhanga,
> Dhatukatha, 
> > Yamaka, and Patthana). I could go the the PTS and purchase
> them 
> > myself (at least those in translation), but I figured I'd
> give 
> anyone 
> > who wants to accumulate a little merit the opportunity to
> give the 
> > gift of Dharma. And it would be going to a VERY good home.
> > 
> > The last book given to me this way, from one of the monks in
> my 
> > bikkhu-sangha, was the Visuddhimagga, and that's now
> becoming dog-
> > eared, its spine coming apart. In other words, your gift of
> Dharma 
> > will not be collecting dust.
> > 
> > Erik



 
5542 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies1

 
  Very interesting post Mike. I wouldn't have known where to look
for those suttas.
thanks
robert
--- "m. nease"  wrote:
> Dear Wynn,
> 
> . He discerns that 'This
> agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable
> thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen
> in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently
> co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite,
> i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable
> thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable
> thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as
> a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open
> them; or having opened them, might close them, that is
> how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what
> it refers to, the arisen agreeable
> thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable
> thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the
> discipline of a noble one, this is called the
> unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to
> forms cognizable by the eye. 
> 
> "Furthermore, when
> hearing...smelling...tasting...touching...cognizing [etc.]"
> 



 
5543 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Thanks, Jon,

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> Yes, and he also uniquely knew the (mostly
> highly-developed) accumulations
> of his listeners, including the extent to which they
> were capable of
> seeing beyond the merely conventional.

Sure--or incapable, in some cases.

> > > Also, you said: "Though the driving out of
> akusala
> > > even by real 
> > > kusala isn't repression, it is still suppression
> in
> > > the sense
> > > that it has no (or rather infinitesimally
> > > little)effect on the 
> > > underlying habitual tendency."
> > > So, in your understanding, what is it that roots
> out
> > > the habitual 
> > > tendency?
> > 
> > It is pa��aa (wisdom; knowledge; insight). As I
> > understand it, the latent tendencies can't really
> be
> > rooted out.  They are eradicated in very small
> > increments by very weak or shallow moments of
> insight
> > into the four foundations; or potentially in much
> > larger increments by much stronger or profound
> > moments.
> 
> Yes, this is my understanding of the teaching also. 
> And thanks for the
> sutta reference that follows.

My pleasure Jon.

mike


 
5544 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:37am
Subject: Re: Request for Books

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> I'm tempted to send you one of my books, however stinginess has
> won out and I can't bear to part, at least for now. 
> Dan, the Guide to Conditions by Narada is first rate a real boon
> to have. Note that this Narada is the Burmese one not the sri
> lankan Narada who translated the Abhidhammamatthasangaha

Heh. Thanks Robert, Dan. So far my only high-level guide to the 
categories has been from the Abhidhammata-sangaha. Robert, I doubt 
it's macciriya that's behind all of this. I'd never part with any 
texts I'm actively using. For example, if you want my copy of the 
Visuddhimagga, you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :)

I was hoping to find even pieces in translation from the Yamaka and 
Patthana, but it looks like I have no choice but to learn Pali 
(something I have no time for at present unfortunately as a #$@#! 
upsaka without any of the appropriate conditions for this sort of 
endeavour, grrr!).

Dan: "Ven. Narada has a "guide" to the Patthana that I haven't looked 
at." 

Now I have something worth tracking down. This sort of text is 
exactly what I have been hoping to locate.

 
5545 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:38am
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  > I think it is usually thought that there are only 40. They are
> quite wide in scope - such as Dhammanusati, which can encompase
> any consideration of the Dhamma done with wise attention. 

If it's Dhamma with a capital 'D', then it's samatha; If its dhamma 
with a small 'd', then it's vipassana? Hmmm... It makes sense to me!

> You have said you like the mahasi and Goenka methods 
I said that? If so, I really must be more careful! I wonder what I 
could have meant...

> recently you wrote " but since [the hindrances] conceal reality from
> consciousness, even 
> moderate degrees of suppression of them in samatha by formal
> sitting can help to lift the veil to allow insight to arise.
> Whether it is 
> samatha at the level of a Goenka or Mahasi-style 10-days, two
> weeks', 
> three weeks', four weeks' retreat, "
> I was assuming this reflected an interpretation of personal
> experience. I also wondered if you found other ways of samatha
> useful. 

It is helpful to think of some differences between "samatha" and 
"vipassana" as technical terms, because it is critical to understand 
that eradicating defilements comes about through insight, not samadhi. 
However, I don't see that Buddha taught anything like: "Do this if you 
want to practice samatha; Do this other thing if you want to practice 
vipassana." E.g., the Anapanasati sutta is filled with references to 
cultivation of sati and observing reality as it is, while Satipatthana 
sutta is filled with references to fixing the mind on an object and 
calming the mind and so forth. Although other teachers of his day 
taught more of a samatha, Buddha taught more of a samatha-vipassana 
than a samatha and a vipassana. Moments of samatha and moments of 
vipassana are different, and moments of practicing samatha and moments 
of practicing vipassana are different; but by emphasizing a strong 
distinction between the two, especially if a preference for 
"vipassana" over samatha is expressed or implied or indicated or 
hinted at, we run the risk of sneering at mundane kusala or appearing 
to sneer at mundane kusala or fearing to sit quietly in a corner, eyes 
closed, concentrating on the sensation of the breath striking the 
above the upper lip because it often results in a very calm and 
peaceful state of mind---"Yikes! By cultivating samatha I run the risk 
of experiencing lots of pleasant sensations and generating lobha. And 
since samatha is distinct from vipassana, and vipassana is better, 
It's better not to sit because it's too risky." This may (or may not) 
be useful for helping a beginning meditator to understand the 
distinction between calm and insight. For a serious student, 
emphasizing the distinctions probably tends to be more helpful 
than harmful, because a serious student will eventually be able to 
overcome the fear of and sneer toward samatha. For a casual 
student, the fruits of concentration are oh-so-pleasant and can be 
somewhat reliably prompted by a teacher to his or her students as a 
gift of Dhamma, while a casual student may not so easily taste the 
fruits of insight. Now, as a casual student evolves into a serious 
student, the distinction can be made more clear: "Such and such is 
vipassana; such and such, samatha." But in my reading, Buddha taught 
samatha-vipassana as a pair.

One of the big dangers for meditators is confusing the fruits of 
concentration with the fruits of insight. This is especially true at 
the beginning because the fruits of concentration begin to arise 
fairly soon and are quite pleasant and seemingly very profound, while 
the fruits of insight aren't as noticeable at the beginning. Goenka 
and Mahasi-style retreats for beginning meditators are filled with 
talk of Vipassana and observing dhammas as they arise and pass away, 
but in my personal experience most of the practice at the beginning is 
samatha and most of the fruit is from samadhi. From talking with 
others, I think this is experience is quite common. Gradually, though, 
the fruits of insight become more and more visible, more and more 
distinct, while the fruits of concentration become more and more 
clearly "fruits of concentration" rather than of insight. But it is 
not possible to label the practice "samatha" or "vipassana" because 
sometimes cultivation of samadhi predominates, sometimes the arising 
of sati predominates. But even at the very beginning, when a new 
student goes on a Goenka or Mahasi-style retreat and develops even a 
little bit of samadhi, it is helpful, especially when some of the 
Dhamma message about anicca, anatta, and dukka is heard, considered, 
and integrated in some small way into the formal practice and into 
everyday living.

> For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority -
> and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I
> wrote an earlier post where I said maranasati(mindfulness of
> death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . 

Exactly. Are you then a vipassana practitioner or a samatha 
practitioner? The question doesn't make sense unless you are strictly 
a samatha practitioner (e.g. a TM afficionado).

> What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these
> days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects,
> according to the texts. This object does need special conditions
> - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; 

I don't doubt that mastery of anapanasati is quite difficult and 
requires special conditions. However, even kindergarten level 
anapanasati can rapidly bring about fairly well-developed samadhi at 
preliminary concentration or access concentration levels (jhana is 
obviously more difficult...). This samatha can be a support for 
sharpening insight. Is this what you doubt?

> when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps
> seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as
> bhavana. Yet those other samatha objects that I mentioned above
> can all be developed in daily life in any posture- (true though
> that more strigent conditions are needed if one wants to take
> them to the most advanced levels)

I find that when I am more disciplined about my formal practice 
(morning and evening daily), samatha-vipassana is more frequent and 
more strongly developed during the day. Thus, the formal practice 
tend to bear good fruit, even on those days when my lazy cittas must 
be forcefully overcome by conventional will-power to get my butt on 
the cushion in the morning. 

> People sometimes ask me politely "how are you?" but really I am 
> fine for the past 10 years or so since realising what the
> objects for vipassana are. How can one feel bad - knowing that
> bad feeling is an object for vipassaan 

"Knowing" is not enough. It requires awareness at that moment. When 
"feeling bad" arises, there is no awareness. 

I'm sorry, Robert, I just realized how long your post is! I read 
through the rest of it, and it's very interesting. I do want to 
continue the conversation, but it will have to wait until later!

Dan

> one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new
> conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance)
> does - clouds seeing these things. And one knows too that there
> are different processes such as seeing occuring that can't come
> with unpleasant feeling. These things can be seen for oneself -
> and so the teachings are being gradually tested and their truths
> seen. 
> In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for
> some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the
> hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are
> also being understood - at different levels. And this leads
> gradually to a turning away from those conditions. 
> Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of
> permanance and self and control. This is the first stage - that
> of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense
> pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances
> except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview
> that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying
> to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . 
> Understanding them is another way.
> 
> However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop
> up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of
> the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings-
> and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati,
> one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may
> not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in
> this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather
> looking for understanding).
> 
> 
> 
> And strong akusala can arise even if understanding is firm- see
> the examples I gave recently about visakha and anathapindika.
> 
> Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the
> present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for
> kusala and that shifts one away from the present:
> 
> ""There can be just unawareness, no wrong practice. But if one
> thinks that one should rather have objects other than the
> present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will
> never study the object which appears now. And how can one know
> their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them?
> So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is
> more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire
> can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's
> desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no
> understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One
> has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha
> which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is
> lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one
> does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from
> developing right understanding of the present object."endquote
> 
> 
> Nevertheless Khun Sujin does admit that satipatthana is not
> always going to occur. She often speaks about other ways of
> kusala. She writes in Deeds of merit "This is another level of
> kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila,
> morality. 
> 
> S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a
> long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have
> calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them.
> Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The
> Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be
> applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of
> subduing defilements. 
> 
> W. : What are these four meditation subjects?
> 
> S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the
> development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of
> repulsiveness and mindfulness of death.
> 
> W. : Before going to sleep we praise the excellent qualities of
> the Buddha by reciting the words: Itipi so bhagavaa: -araha~n,
> sammaasambuddho, vijjaa cara~nasampanno, sugato, lokaviduu,
> anuttaro purisadamma-saarathi, satthaa devamanussaana~n, buddho,
> bhagavaa tii. This means: That Blessed One is such since he is
> accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with (clear) vision and
> (virtuous) conduct, sublime, the knower of the worlds, the
> incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and
> men, enlightened and blessed. Is this a way of mental
> development which is calm?
> 
> S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is
> the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious
> action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed
> through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the
> level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words,
> but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the
> excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote
> She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. 
> 
> I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places
> most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that
> for those who have the accumulations to understand these that
> this is the rarest teaching. 
> 
> When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an
> object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). It took alot
> of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my
> life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid
> confrontations and many other things (and still could never get
> things quite right.) I still like to get away to quiet places
> and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there
> is not the pressure of thinking I MUST be in such situations. It
> seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. 
> robert
> 

 
5546 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Robert,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 

 wrote:

> When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can

> be an object for insight I was elated (not 
> discouraged). It took a lot of stress away.

I know what you mean.  It is an oddly liberating
reflection that there's no one responsible for these
unwholesome tendencies and that they can't be changed
overnight (as a rule).  With the added bonus that they
really are the 'fuel' for insight, it really is
elating.  

Looking at it in this way also relieves a lot of the
pressure to act in any particular way or to go around
suppressing kilesa in order to look like a 'good
Buddhist'.

mike


 
5547 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:28am
Subject: samadhi

 
  Dear Dan, I am answering in this format, since my Email accounts got lost.

You mentioned that samadhi is different from ekaggata cetasika, that Ven.
Narada writes that ekaggata cetasika which is developed is called samadhi.
He is right, but there is more to it. There is right concentration with
kusala citta and wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, with akusala citta. I
shall quote Santi Phantakeong who writes in his Lexicon (to Acharn Sujin�s
Survey of paramattha dhammas) about momentary concentration, khanika
samadhi:
< This is samadhi which occurs each moment, and this refers to ekaggata
cetasika accompanying the citta of people everywhere, and which normally
arises. For example, when one normally sees, hears, smells, tastes,
experiences an object through the bodysense or thinks, when one stands,
walks, sits or lies down,khanika samadhi accompanies the citta.
Ekaggata cetasika or the dhamma which is samadhi arises with each citta.
However, if one develops the citta so that it acquires more power to attain
calm and to become free from defilements, ekaggata cetasika which arises
together with panna is called access concentration, upacara samadhi.
Ekaggata cetasika which accompanies jhanacitta is called attainment
concentration, appana samadhi.>

Now I quote what Santi states about samatha:
< Samatha (calm) bhavana (to make become develop).
The development of calm, refers to the development of citta to the degree of
being free from defilements. This is the development of right concentration,
samma samadhi, and this is called arammanupanijjha jhana, focussing or
concentration on the object, namely one of the forty meditation subjects of
samatha. A person who develops samatha must have sati sampaja~n~na (sati and
pa~n~naa), that is, he must know the difference between the citta which is
calm and the citta which is not calm. Then he can develop more and more calm
of citta. Samadhi can develop from khanika samadhi to access concentration
and to attainment concentration which is jhanacitta, and then higher stages
of jhana can be reached successively.
A person who is not born with a rebirth-consciousness accompanied by
pa~n~naa (thus not with three sobhana hetus) cannot develop calm to the
degree of jhanacitta.>

You write: samatha need not be associated with pa~n~naa which knows the
characteristics of realities or with wise attention, yoniso manasikara. As
to wise attention, this means: when in a process of cittas experiencing an
object kusala cittas arise, there is wise attention to the object.This
refers not merely to samatha.  If akusala cittas arise there is unwise
attention.  

The Buddha explained that jhana alone is not enough. His teaching is
different from other teachers. One should not take jhana for self and one
should know the true characteristics of realities. There should not only be
arammanupanijjha jhana but also lakkhanupanijjha jhana, knowledge of the
nature of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, also of jhanacitta. Even when
satippatthana is not always expressively mentioned, it is always implied,
because it is the specific teaching of the Buddha. His teaching is unique,
not to be compared to what other teachers before him had also taught. When
he spoke to the monks about developing jhana, he knew their accumulations,
he knew whether they had cultivated jhana before and had acquired great
skill. Those who had great skill in jhana could be mindful of the
jhanacitta, or of the jhana factors, or of any other reality appearing after
the jhanacitta had fallen away. But they must have attained the �masteries�
(vasiis) in jhana, such as entering jhana or emerging from it whenever they
wished (Visuddhimagga (IV,131). Only then jhanacitta was so natural to them
that it could be the object of satipatthana.
Nina.

 
5548 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:40am
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  --- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote:
> Dear Robert,

> Looking at it in this way also relieves a lot of the
> pressure to act in any particular way or to go around
> suppressing kilesa in order to look like a 'good
> Buddhist'.

And Mike, the fact is, anyone who's a "good Buddhist" wouldn't dare 
dream of hiding his or her faults. Or at least that's my 
interpretation of how to avoid musavada--posing as something we 
aren't.

And I agree with Robert's notes on this, on not attempting to avoid 
painful situations. This is an area of growing specialty in my own 
practice, I think--learning to deal with intense, unavoidable akusala 
vipaka. 

There are few better ways to focus attention on overcoming 
afflictions than when you're stuck having to either face them 
directly and neutralize them with wisdom, or suffer horribly and 
perpetuate them trying to either resist them or run away from them. 
It has taken me a long time, a lot of trial-and-error (and mucho 
dukkha providing the fodder) to figure out this oh-so simple equation 
of non-avoidance. 

And this strategy has made all the difference bearing up under dukkha 
when it can't be dodged--and ALL of us, at some point or another, 
will meet dukkha we can't avoid to save our lives. If there's no way 
out, there no alternative to deal with pain than learning to 
tolerating it, by coming to understand its essential nature as 
impermanent, suffering, and non-self. I found the Sabbasava Sutta 
also outlines many of the techniques for dealing with the asavas in 
this way.

As is said (Master Shantideva), "there is no evil equal to hatred, 
and no austerity equal to forbearance." Learning forbearance may 
test one's patience, but there also isn't any other way, at least not 
as I can see at present. So there's actually reason to rejoice when 
akusala vipaka ripens, because it provides the fodder to overcome our 
afflictions, which could not be overcome in any other way (though I 
will add at the moment I would not prefer any more such "blessings" 
as my cup runneth way over, and I'd prefer an opportunity to address 
the somanassa-sahagatam lobha-mula-cittas for a little while  for the 
sake of a little variety :)).

 
5549 From: Paul Bail 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:04am
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Mike,

Thank you for going into more detail.  I understand your point now.

Paul Bail


> > Dear Mike,
> > 
> > What you have written is an interesting response to
> > an interesting 
> > thread.  Could you elaborate and clarify what you
> > mean in the 
> > following:
> > 
> > "Personally I think it's very valuable, without
> > discounting the
> > conventional view (as this is the way the
> > Buddhausually taught), to 
> > distinguish carefully between the conventional and
> > the ultimate, most 
> > especially where self-view is concerned."
> 
> The Buddha spoke in most of the discourses in
> conventional terms, as if the monks and householders
> and so on whom he was addressing were 'selves' with
> the power to think, speak and act.  Ultimately he was
> uniquely aware that this was not the case.  So it
> seems clear (to me) that his conventional (personal)
> speech was meant to condition the arising of the
> various (impersonal) wholesome states leading to
> insight, understanding and liberation.
>

 
 
5550 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:42am
Subject: In my opinion

 
  Dear all contributors and lurkers,

		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism...
and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something came
into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert back
to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse than
avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on my
part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many reasons
that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the
damage... Please give opinion

Sarah,

	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me
off list..

Rgds,

Loke CL

 
5551 From: wynn   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:40am
Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies5

 
  Hi,

How about this?

 Johannes Bronkhorst wrote:
(he listed 5 contradictions)


5. The Buddhist texts are not of one mind concerning the time when
liberation is reached. A great number of passages emphatically states that
liberation is reached in this life, i.e., well before death. This is hardly
surprising, for the Buddha himself is agreed to have passed many years
teaching after his moment of liberation. Yet other passages speak about
liberation as taking place at death. As in all the preceding cases, there is
here a contradiction in the texts. Various solutions are conceivable, such
as "the Buddha didn't know", "he expressed himself variously", "he changed
his mind", "some are liberated at death, others in life", etc. Indeed,
anyone with some imagination can add to this list of possibilities almost
indefinitely. However, we know that among many non-Buddhists liberation took
place at death, and that many Buddhist texts emphatically hold the opposite
opinion. It is no doubt superfluous to add that an intrusion of foreign
ideas seems to me most plausible here, too

 
5552 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5

 
  Hi, Wynn -

In a message dated 6/11/01 11:53:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Wynn writes:


> Johannes Bronkhorst wrote:
> (he listed 5 contradictions)
> 
> 
> 5. The Buddhist texts are not of one mind concerning the time when
> liberation is reached. A great number of passages emphatically states that
> liberation is reached in this life, i.e., well before death. This is hardly
> surprising, for the Buddha himself is agreed to have passed many years
> teaching after his moment of liberation. Yet other passages speak about
> liberation as taking place at death. As in all the preceding cases, there is
> here a contradiction in the texts. Various solutions are conceivable, such
> as "the Buddha didn't know", "he expressed himself variously", "he changed
> his mind", "some are liberated at death, others in life", etc. Indeed,
> anyone with some imagination can add to this list of possibilities almost
> indefinitely. However, we know that among many non-Buddhists liberation took
> place at death, and that many Buddhist texts emphatically hold the opposite
> opinion. It is no doubt superfluous to add that an intrusion of foreign
> ideas seems to me most plausible here, too
> 
> 
============================
       Frankly, I'm starting to consider this Bronkhorst to be slightly 
idiotic. It sems to me that he felt he needed to publish *something*; so he 
tried the "contradictory Buddha scenario" in hopes that it would sell! 
       Clearly in the suttas there are cases of people becoming liberated 
before death and cases of other people becoming liberated at death. So what? 
Different people, different occurrences! This strikes me as a major non-issue!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5553 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion

 
  Dear C.L.,

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: > Dear
all contributors and lurkers,
> 
> 		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism...
> and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something came
> into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
> Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert back
> to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse than
> avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on my
> part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many reasons
> that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the
> damage... Please give opinion
> 
> Sarah,
> 
> 	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me
> off list..
> 

In my opinion,  your concern is unnecessary.  All your questions and comments
are very appropriate and I don't think you need to worry at all! The reason we
post on a discussion forum is so that everyone can enjoy and benefit from the
questions and comments.

Sarah




 
5554 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 5:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion

 
  --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  
If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding
> the
> Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism
> and revert back
> to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka
> in worse than
> avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will
> arise on my
> part... Tell me what do you think ? 
___________
dear CL,
If you convert me to Christianity you deserve Avici hell (don't
worry so much, no worse hell than that).
Seriously, Buddhism is well able to hold its own in any
discussion with memebers of other faiths; It becomes more
convincing the more one learns. I think if we discuss in detail
it is more likely that the conversion will go towards the
Buddhist side.
It is great that you are concerned about such matters and shows
that you will be careful in what you write.
robert


 
5555 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 6:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion

 
  One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last week
I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views that
deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
christains have wrong view in that they believe in the saving
grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works lead
to heaven: thus mother theresa.
It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god
(wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
serious the view is. 
robert


 
5556 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:25pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion

 
  i agree ... however..if the resultants of me bringing up the discussion that
someone were to revert back to wrong views practices.. don't that me reap
what I have sowed.. causing wrong views to arise....

that's what I have been thinking...
what do you think ?

Rgds,
Loke CL


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Sarah Procter Abbott [SMTP:Sarah ]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:55 PM
> Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] In my opinion
> 
> Dear C.L.,
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: >
> Dear
> all contributors and lurkers,
> > 
> > 		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and Buddhism...
> > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, something
> came
> > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
> > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and revert
> back
> > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in worse
> than
> > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise on
> my
> > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many
> reasons
> > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise the
> > damage... Please give opinion
> > 
> > Sarah,
> > 
> > 	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to reply me
> > off list..
> > 
> 
> In my opinion,  your concern is unnecessary.  All your questions and
> comments
> are very appropriate and I don't think you need to worry at all! The
> reason we
> post on a discussion forum is so that everyone can enjoy and benefit from
> the
> questions and comments.
> 
> Sarah


 
5557 From: Herman 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:10pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear CL,

I believe you need not worry. If it were possible to cause wrong view 
to arise then it would also be posible to cause right view to arise, 
in which case you would have done that a long time ago! 

Question: If that were really possible, would everyone be Buddhist?

Answer: Is Buddha Buddhist?


Metta


Herman





--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Dear all contributors and lurkers,
> 
> 		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and 
Buddhism...
> and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, 
something came
> into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
> Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and 
revert back
> to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in 
worse than
> avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise 
on my
> part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many 
reasons
> that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise 
the
> damage... Please give opinion
> 
> Sarah,
> 
> 	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to 
reply me
> off list..
> 
> Rgds,
> 
> Loke CL

 
5558 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:24pm
Subject: Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Dear Group,
Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context?

"If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and 
regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will 
pass consciously,not unconsciously".

Someone on another list had quoted it.

Sukin.

 
5559 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5

 
  Dear Wynn,

I agree with Howard--the author seems to be trying to
stir up controversy and to fabricate inconsistencies
where there are none (my apologies if this seems an
uncharitable construction).  If this is true then
profit of some kind seems a likely motive for him. 
May I ask, what is your motive in pursuing these
questions?  Do you really find them compelling?  Just
curious...

mike
  
--- Howard wrote:

> ============================
>        Frankly, I'm starting to consider this
> Bronkhorst to be slightly 
> idiotic. It sems to me that he felt he needed to
> publish *something*; so he 
> tried the "contradictory Buddha scenario" in hopes
> that it would sell! 
>        Clearly in the suttas there are cases of
> people becoming liberated 
> before death and cases of other people becoming
> liberated at death. So what? 
> Different people, different occurrences! This
> strikes me as a major non-issue!
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A
> star at dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
> a flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> Sutra)                    
>             
>                                          



 
5560 From: Herman 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 8:22pm
Subject: Re: Contradictions/Inconsistencies5

 
  Dear Wynn,

I have no doubt at all that the Pali canon is littered with the sort 
of issues that Mr Bronkhorst raises.

I no longer feel the urge to make everything ever written about or 
attributed to the Buddha internally consistent and contradiction 
free. 

What is it but clinging, this insistence on an external truth that is 
unambigious, uninterpreted, unchanging. This craving for a bedrock is 
the placenta for the self.

Keep posting those contradictions if you wish, they are giving me a 
wonderful opportunity to stand on my soap box :-)

Metta 

Herman






--- wynn  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> How about this?
> 
>  Johannes Bronkhorst wrote:
> (he listed 5 contradictions)
> 
> 
> 5. The Buddhist texts are not of one mind concerning the time when
> liberation is reached. A great number of passages emphatically 
states that
> liberation is reached in this life, i.e., well before death. This 
is hardly
> surprising, for the Buddha himself is agreed to have passed many 
years
> teaching after his moment of liberation. Yet other passages speak 
about
> liberation as taking place at death. As in all the preceding cases, 
there is
> here a contradiction in the texts. Various solutions are 
conceivable, such
> as "the Buddha didn't know", "he expressed himself variously", "he 
changed
> his mind", "some are liberated at death, others in life", etc. 
Indeed,
> anyone with some imagination can add to this list of possibilities 
almost
> indefinitely. However, we know that among many non-Buddhists 
liberation took
> place at death, and that many Buddhist texts emphatically hold the 
opposite
> opinion. It is no doubt superfluous to add that an intrusion of 
foreign
> ideas seems to me most plausible here, too

 
5561 From: wynn   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies2

 
  Hi,

How about this?


 Johannes Bronkhorst wrote:
(he listed 5 contradictions)


2. A S�tra of the Majjhima Nik�ya (the C�ladukkhakkhandha Sutta) as well as
its parallels in Chinese translation describe and criticize the Jainas as
practising 'annihilation of former actions by asceticism' and
'non�performing of new actions'. This can be accepted as an accurate
description of the practices of the Jainas. But several other S�tras of the
Buddhist ca�on put almost the same words in the mouth of the Buddha, who
here approves of these practices (see note 8 to chapter 2, below). Did the
Buddha first hold one opinion, then to change his mind ? Or did he not know
how to describe his experiences ? Obviously it is far more plausible that,
again, practices that were widely accepted outside the Buddhist fold, but
not inside it, found their way in.

The argument here summarized is again presented, in a but slightly different
form, by no one else than Ruegg, apparently without realizing it, in the
very same book in which he dismisses my arguments. This situation is
extraordinary enough to warrant quoting the passage concerned at length
(Ruegg, 1989: 142-143):



Now, in some old Buddhist canonical texts also there are in fact found
certain references to the idea that liberation from ill (duhkha) results
from, and consists in, the non-production of any future karman at all and
from the ending, often through austerities (tapas), of any existing bad
karman. This idea is there usually ascribed to the Nigantha N�taputta
(Nirgrantha Jn�trputra), in other words to Mah�vira and the Jainas. We also
read that immobility of body and renunciation of speech bring Ease (sukha).
Moreover, in a couple of Buddhist canonical texts the idea that no new
karman at all should be generated, and that any existing karman should be
ended, has even been connected with the Buddha himself in a sermon he once
addressed to a Nirgrantha and in another one he addressed to Vappa, a
disciple of the Nirgranthas.

The connection of such a teaching with the Buddha himself seems nevertheless
to be rare. When it does occur, it is evidently to be explained by the fact
that his auditor was a Nirgrantha and that the teaching was thus intended as
an introductory salvific device, a circumstance that would lend support to
Kamalasila's statement denying that such relinquishement of all activity was
the Buddha's own teaching. In the majority of other places where it has been
mentioned in the P�Ii canon, this doctrine has in fact been severely
criticized. It is patently inconsistent with such basic principles of
Buddhist doctrine as the four correct efforts (sammappadhana /
samyakprah�na)..

It is not a little surprising to see how Ruegg, who rejects my arguments,
arrives here at my conclusions, using my arguments and basing himself on the
inconsistencies whose very existence he had attributed to my ill-founded
presuppositions. In the situation it is no doubt kindest to Professor Ruegg
to assume that he dismissed my book without having read it.

======

Note 8 to chapter 2

8. These words are again ascribed to Niganha Nathaputta and his followers at
AN I.
220-21; MN 11.214; cf. SAC p. 147c8f.; MACP. 442c2f.
It is noteworthy that almost the same words are placed in the mouth of the
Buddha at AN 1.221, 11.197-98 (cf. MAC p. 434b23; SAC p.147c27): so navan ca
kammam na karoti, puranam kammam  phussa phussa vyantikaroti; the effects of
activities are now said to wear out with death (AN II. 198-99; MAC p.
434c5f.). At Ud 21, similarly, we are confronted with a monk "in a
cross-legged position, with body erect, mindful and conscious, and bearing
without a murmur, acute, piercing and terrible pains, the result of deeds
done in the past" (pallankam abhujitva ujum kayam panidhaya
puranakammavipakajam dukkham tippam kharam katukam vedanam adhivasento sato
sampajano aviha��amano; tr. Strong, 1902: 27). At AN V.292, 294, 297, 298
(cf. MAC p. 437b26f.) the Buddha is made to declare "that of intentional
deeds done and accumulated there can be no wiping out without experiencing
the result thereof, and that too whenever arising, either in this same
visible state or in some other state hereafter" (naham bhikkhave
sancetanikanam kammanam katanam upacitanam appatisamviditva vyantibhavam
vadami, tan ca kho ditthe va dhamme upapajjam va apare va pariyaye; tr.
Woodward, 1936: 189, 191).

 
5562 From: wynn   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5

 
  I am wondering whether his  argument is right, meaning the Tipitaka have
some contradictions/inconsistencies.

=====

Anyway,......

The Buddha describe two types of nibbana: the Unbinding property with fuel
remaining, and the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.  If one is
still alive after attaining nibbana they have attained the first type.  This
is a widely know teaching of the Buddha, and again there is no contradiction
here.  The link answers this question clearly.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti2.html#44

----- Original Message -----
From: m. nease 
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Contradictions/Inconsistencies5


> Dear Wynn,
>
> I agree with Howard--the author seems to be trying to
> stir up controversy and to fabricate inconsistencies
> where there are none (my apologies if this seems an
> uncharitable construction).  If this is true then
> profit of some kind seems a likely motive for him.
> May I ask, what is your motive in pursuing these
> questions?  Do you really find them compelling?  Just
> curious...
>
> mike
>

 
5563 From: wynn   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:36pm
Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies4

 
  Hi,

How about this?

4. Four states of meditation are often enumerated in the Buddhist S�tras in
varying contexts, but almost always together. They are: 1) the Stage of
Infinity of Space; 2) the Stage of Infinity of Perception; 3) the Stage of
Nothingness; 4) the Stage of neither Ideation nor Non-Ideation. The texts
say little by way of explanation of these stages, but the names make clear
that they together form a list of graded exercises aimed at the cessation of
all ideations. This aim conforms very well with the aims we have to ascribe
to the early Jainas and those of similar convictions. Moreover, the Jaina
scriptures describe 'reflection on infinity' as one of the accompaniments of
'pure meditation'. These stages are denounced elsewhere in the Buddhist
canon, be it indirectly: The Buddha is said to have had two teachers before
his enlightenment: Ar�da K�l�ma and Udraka the son of R�ma. From the former
he learned the Stage of Nothingness, from the latter the Stage of neither
Ideation nor Non-Ideation. However, the Buddha left these teachers, because
he came to believe that these Stages would not lead him to his goal.

Here the question seems justified: do these stages lead to the goal or do
they not ? Various answers can be imagined, such as, "they do to some
extent, but not all the way", "the Buddha had second thoughts about the
usefulness of these stages", etc. But I insist that there is a problem here
that demands an answer, and not just a manifestation of my "unexplicated or
unexamined (and anything but self-evident) presuppositions about
'contradictions' in the tradition", as Ruegg would have it. Criticism of
this kind, which refuses to study arguments, is not only counter-productive,
it constitutes one of the greatest enemies of scholarship which, as Gombrich
rightly points out, should at least try to progress by argument. Returning
to the Stage of Nothingness and the Stage of neither Ideation nor
NonIdeation, it will hardly be necessary to add that in my opinion they
comply with the criterion of foreign intrusion into the Buddhist texts
formulated above.
The conclusion that the above four meditational Stages were not accepted in
earliest Buddhism finds support in an altogether unexpected quarter; for a
detailed presentation of the argument I must refer the reader to BSOAS 48,
1985, pp. 305 f.4 Among the early (Abhidharmic) matrkas, one seems to have
been considered particularly important. It occurs a number of times in the
early texts, but not always in exactly the same form; to an original
enumeration of merely mental characteristics, meditational states came to be
added. But initially the meditational states thus added did not contain the
four Stages discussed above, even though these Stages, collectively known as
'the Formless States', are very prominent in the Buddhist scriptures as we
have them. The most plausible explanation is again that the Formless States
were not accepted during the earliest period of Buddhism.

 
5564 From: wynn   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:35pm
Subject: Contradictions/Inconsistencies3

 
  Hi,

How about this?


 Johannes Bronkhorst wrote:
(he listed 5 contradictions)


3. The Vitakkasanthana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya and its parallels in
Chinese translation recommend the praetising monk to 'restrain his thought
with his mind, to coerce and torment it'. Exactly the same words are used
elsewhere in the P�li canon (in the Mah�saccaka Sutta, Bodhir�jakum�ra Sutta
and Sangarava Sutta) in order to describe the futile attempts of the Buddha
before his enlightenment to reach liberation after the manner of the Jainas.
Once again it is hard to see a better explanation than that these Jaina
practices had come to be accepted by at least some Buddhists.

 
 
5565 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Howard

>        One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to deny
> the 
> importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An
> important 
> function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination to
> react 
> at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, see
> the 
> inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting it
> build 
> and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the opposite.

I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution.  Could there be
the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala?

The function of awareness is to be aware of (=study) by direct experience
the reality that appears at the present moment, so that the reality can be
seen for what it is.  Awareness is not a means by which we can 'catch'
akusala inclinations at an early stage, since it cannot be directed to any
particular object.  If we have the expectation of some immediate or direct
result in terms of the level of akusala experienced in our lives, this is
probably no less an intervention of 'self' than is the idea that the
akusala can be suppressed. 

Jon



 
5566 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Contradictions/Inconsistencies4

 
  Hi Wynn,
The four states of meditation mentioned are called the immaterial 
jhana. They result from highly refined concentration. Buddha taught 
that these exalted forms of concentration are not necessary for 
enlightenment nor do they lead to enlightenment. They are mentioned 
with praise in the sutras because they are wholesome, exalted states 
of consciousness. Mistaking them for the final goal or even as 
directly contributing to progress on the path would be to mistake 
what is path with what is non-path. Enlightenment is via insight, not 
concentration.

Dan

> 4. Four states of meditation are often enumerated in the Buddhist 
S�tras in
> varying contexts, but almost always together. They are: 1) the 
Stage of
> Infinity of Space; 2) the Stage of Infinity of Perception; 3) the 
Stage of
> Nothingness; 4) the Stage of neither Ideation nor Non-Ideation. The 
texts
> say little by way of explanation of these stages, but the names 
make clear
> that they together form a list of graded exercises aimed at the 
cessation of
> all ideations. This aim conforms very well with the aims we have to 
ascribe
> to the early Jainas and those of similar convictions. Moreover, the 
Jaina
> scriptures describe 'reflection on infinity' as one of the 
accompaniments of
> 'pure meditation'. These stages are denounced elsewhere in the 
Buddhist
> canon, be it indirectly: The Buddha is said to have had two 
teachers before
> his enlightenment: Ar�da K�l�ma and Udraka the son of R�ma. From 
the former
> he learned the Stage of Nothingness, from the latter the Stage of 
neither
> Ideation nor Non-Ideation. However, the Buddha left these teachers, 
because
> he came to believe that these Stages would not lead him to his goal.
> 
> Here the question seems justified: do these stages lead to the goal 
or do
> they not ? Various answers can be imagined, such as, "they do to 
some
> extent, but not all the way", "the Buddha had second thoughts about 
the
> usefulness of these stages", etc. But I insist that there is a 
problem here
> that demands an answer, and not just a manifestation of 
my "unexplicated or
> unexamined (and anything but self-evident) presuppositions about
> 'contradictions' in the tradition", as Ruegg would have it. 
Criticism of
> this kind, which refuses to study arguments, is not only counter-
productive,
> it constitutes one of the greatest enemies of scholarship which, as 
Gombrich
> rightly points out, should at least try to progress by argument. 
Returning
> to the Stage of Nothingness and the Stage of neither Ideation nor
> NonIdeation, it will hardly be necessary to add that in my opinion 
they
> comply with the criterion of foreign intrusion into the Buddhist 
texts
> formulated above.
> The conclusion that the above four meditational Stages were not 
accepted in
> earliest Buddhism finds support in an altogether unexpected 
quarter; for a
> detailed presentation of the argument I must refer the reader to 
BSOAS 48,
> 1985, pp. 305 f.4 Among the early (Abhidharmic) matrkas, one seems 
to have
> been considered particularly important. It occurs a number of times 
in the
> early texts, but not always in exactly the same form; to an original
> enumeration of merely mental characteristics, meditational states 
came to be
> added. But initially the meditational states thus added did not 
contain the
> four Stages discussed above, even though these Stages, collectively 
known as
> 'the Formless States', are very prominent in the Buddhist 
scriptures as we
> have them. The most plausible explanation is again that the 
Formless States
> were not accepted during the earliest period of Buddhism.

 
5567 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Erik

Thanks for your comments.  I'm not able to reply to all the points you
make, but would like to pick up one or two.

--- Erik wrote:
> Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does 
> samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry 
> over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The hindrances 
> may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & 
> jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue 
> during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions because 
> of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains 
> more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot more 
> than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because 
> kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that one 
> is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise.

You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha and the
arising of moments of insight.  If I understand correctly, that connection
is supported by the following reasoning:
-  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
-  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of
samatha
-  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, (and
not otherwise,??) insight can arise.

While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 propositions, the
3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however is
not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read.  I realise this is a
matter of interpretation, but I believe the reasoning given confuses the 2
kinds of bhavana.  The fact that we still have the anusaya surely does not
preclude the arising of awareness of a present reality?

> One of the things I am sensing in this dialogue is resistance to the 
> practice of shamatha. I am curious as to why there seems to be this 
> resistance to a practice heavily encuoraged by the Buddha. The 
> question I have is, does anyone really believe that cultivating 
> samatha isn't important or necessary? Even those stalking the elusive 
> khanika-samadhi won't have the conditions to experience absorption 
> with hindrances present. I guess I am trying to understand what, 
> specifically, is the objection to samatha as a necessary component of 
> the path? Again, I think of the Yugganaddah, the conjoined pair of 
> samatha & vipassana. Why are these a "conjoined" pair if not because 
> they are mutuality conditions for the arising of insight?

Speaking for myself, there is no resistance whatsoever to the development
of samatha.  But my own views as to what that development is, and the role
that samatha plays, may differ markedly from your own, Erik.  I do perhaps
disagree with many of the claims that are made regarding samatha, but am
happy to discuss the subject any time.

Your mention of the Yugganaddah Sutta reminds me that I have not yet
responded to an earlier post of yours where you mention this and other
suttas.  I mean to do so soon.  But just to make a general comment, the
Buddha's audience was often monks who had developed or were developing
high levels of samatha, so suttas directed to those monks will naturally
deal with the development of insight in that context.

Jon



 
5568 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:41pm
Subject: Re: Contradictions/Inconsistencies3

 
  Some of the meditation techniques of the jains are just fine, but to 
think they lead to liberation is mistaken.

Dan

> 3. The Vitakkasanthana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya and its 
parallels in
> Chinese translation recommend the praetising monk to 'restrain his 
thought
> with his mind, to coerce and torment it'. Exactly the same words 
are used
> elsewhere in the P�li canon (in the Mah�saccaka Sutta, 
Bodhir�jakum�ra Sutta
> and Sangarava Sutta) in order to describe the futile attempts of 
the Buddha
> before his enlightenment to reach liberation after the manner of 
the Jainas.
> Once again it is hard to see a better explanation than that these 
Jaina
> practices had come to be accepted by at least some Buddhists.

 
5569 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:53pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Jon

Erik:
> > Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does 
> > samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry 
> > over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The 
hindrances 
> > may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & 
> > jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue 
> > during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions 
because 
> > of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains 
> > more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot 
more 
> > than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because 
> > kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that 
one 
> > is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise.

Jon:
> You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha 
and the
> arising of moments of insight.  If I understand correctly, that 
connection
> is supported by the following reasoning:
> -  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
> -  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of
> samatha
> -  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, 
(and
> not otherwise,??) insight can arise.
> 
> While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 
propositions, the
> 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however 
is
> not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read.  

I don't think this is what Erik is saying at all. Insight does not 
arise BY samatha and suppressing the hindrances. However, samatha and 
suppressing the hindrances can condition a STRENTGTHENING of insight 
by allowing a clearer view to realities. To emphasize the first 
point: Even when samatha lifts a fog, sati and vipassana might still 
keep their eyes closed. When the fog is lifted, the landscape can be 
viewed with wisdom or not.

Jon:
> Speaking for myself, there is no resistance whatsoever to the 
development
> of samatha.  But my own views as to what that development is, and 
the role
> that samatha plays, may differ markedly from your own, Erik.  I do 
perhaps
> disagree with many of the claims that are made regarding samatha, 
but am
> happy to discuss the subject any time.

You are right to disagree with many claims made about samatha, but 
are your assumptions about what Erik is saying and what I am saying 
are just what you think we are saying? 

Dan

 
5570 From: Num 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Hi K.Sukin,

I tried a search on  http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm.  It's 
in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai Tipitaka.  Kom gave me this 
link.  I found it's easier to search on this site than on my CD rom.  I 
haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my cdrom yet.

I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta pitaka, majhima-nikaya, 
vol.13/45.  (146), anapanasati-bhavana, maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before 
chula-malungayabutta sutta.

Regards,

Num



 
5571 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Thanks, Num,

Sukin, here's an English translation (with Pali at the
same site):

"Rahula, when mindfulness of in breaths and out
breaths are developed and made much in this manner,
even the last breath leaves with your knowledge."

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha-rahulovada-e1.htm

--- Num wrote:

> Hi K.Sukin,
> 
> I tried a search on 
> http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm. 
> It's 
> in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai
> Tipitaka.  Kom gave me this 
> link.  I found it's easier to search on this site
> than on my CD rom.  I 
> haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my
> cdrom yet.
> 
> I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta
> pitaka, majhima-nikaya, 
> vol.13/45.  (146), anapanasati-bhavana,
> maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before 
> chula-malungayabutta sutta.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Num


 
5572 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/12/01 9:44:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> >        One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to deny
> > the 
> > importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An
> > important 
> > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination to
> > react 
> > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana, see
> > the 
> > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting it
> > build 
> > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the opposite.
> 
> I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution.  Could there be
> the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala?
> 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I don't follow you, Jon. There's no subtle idea involved here. To be 
watchful, to be on the lookout for the commencing of reacting to vedana, 
requires a constant vigilant exercise of mindfulness.
------------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> The function of awareness is to be aware of (=study) by direct experience
> the reality that appears at the present moment, so that the reality can be
> seen for what it is.
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes. Remembering to stay present, so that clear comprehension can come 
into play. (I assume that when you write 'awareness', that is your 
translation for 'sati'.)
----------------------------------------------------------------
   Awareness is not a means by which we can 'catch'
akusala inclinations at an early stage, since it cannot be directed to any
particular object.  If we have the expectation of some immediate or direct
result in terms of the level of akusala experienced in our lives, this is
probably no less an intervention of 'self' than is the idea that the
akusala can be suppressed. 
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Sorry. I don't get you here at all. I'm talking about staying mindful 
and observing with clear comprehension. The more microscopically and clearly 
we can see what actually arises, the more opportunity we have for exercising 
right effort. When we are not mindful, then reactions are automatic and 
inevitable. There is no question of expectations here or of instant fixes. 
What is involved here is the development of a habituated practice of stopping 
and looking as an alternative to going through life asleep. By stopping and 
seeing what really is happening, there is the opportunity for both the 
exercise of right effort (and also for the arising of wisdom). We have one 
primary choice: to be awake or to be asleep. To emphasize my main point, let 
me give here an excerpt abtained from the Access to Insight site: 

                      

                         Abandoning the wrong factors of the path


> "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html">right view</A>: 
> This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve 
> & to enter & remain in <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-sankappo.html">right resolve</A>: This is one's right mindfulness... 
> "One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vaca.html">right speech</A>
> : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong 
> action & to enter & remain in <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-kammanto.html">right action</A>: This is one's right 
> mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & 
> remain in <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ajivo.html">right livelihood</A>: This is one's right mindfulness..." 
> >> -- <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html">MN 117</A>
> 
--------------------------------------------------------
 Jon
===========================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         




 
5573 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 7:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Jon and Erik,

Just an aside (I think):

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

You make a very direct connection between the practice

of samatha and the arising of moments of insight.  If
I understand correctly, that connection is supported
by the following reasoning:
-  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
-  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the 
development of
samatha
-  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the

hindrances, (and not otherwise,??) insight can arise.

While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first

2 propositions, the 3rd is one of those persuasively
'logical' conclusions that however is
not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read.  I 
realise this is a matter of interpretation, but I
believe the reasoning given confuses the 2 kinds of
bhavana.  The fact that we still have the anusaya
surely does not preclude the arising of awareness of a
present reality?
---------------------------------------
I'm not arguing with either of you here, but Jon's
last question made me wonder if I've misunderstood
something.  As I (thought I) understood it, the medium
and coarse defilements (mental, verbal and physical),
not the anusaya, are supressed by samatha...?  Mental
kamma isn't considered latent, is it?

Thanks in advance,

mike


 
5574 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 8:21am
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Jon:
> I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution.  Could 
there be
> the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with 
akusala?

I'd argue non-subtly and even explicitly that awareness is a great 
means of dealing with akusala and that Abhidhamma concurs. For 
example, in the Sammappadhanavibhanga (Analysis of Right Striving, 
Vibh. 8): "The four right strivings--Herein a bhikkhu engenders wish, 
makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non-
arising of evil bad states that have not arisen; engenders wish, 
makes effort, arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the 
abandoning of evil bad states that have arisen;..." How to do so? Via 
the direct path for the purification of beings, viz. satipatthana, 
which is establishment of awareness. 

Dan

 
5575 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:17am
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god
> (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> serious the view is. 
I think about it just the opposite way! The concept of "grace of God" 
or "salvation by faith" is a crude version of anatta. This is sure to 
raise a lot of hackles, but try to understand my point before letting 
it condition too much dosa! Christian faith is all about putting the 
ego aside and letting actions be guided by the Holy Spirit. Any 
action -- even one that superficially looks very good -- that is 
guided by the personal will is at best non-effectual in salvation. 
Instead, Christian faith demands that the ego be put aside and faith 
in God be developed. If faith is strong enough, good works are done 
incessantly, cheerfully and without any nudging from the ego or the 
will or the atta. The view is not "anatta" per se but only that any 
activity governed by atta rather than God is necessarily akusala. 
What is "God"? Well, I'd say that it is a crutch that Christians use 
for understanding anatta. It can be reasonably effective in 
attenuating people's clinging to self, and as far as that goes it is 
helpful. Ultimately, though, liberation does require dropping that 
crutch. 

As for doing good works, I'm sure both Mother Theresa and Buddha 
would disagree that "good works" per se is the vehicle for salvation 
or enlightenment. Mother Theresa would say that faith is key: If 
faith is strong, the good works will naturally follow 
without "effort" and without direction from the will. Buddha would 
say that wisdom is key: If wisdom is strong, the good works will 
naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from any 
atta. Neither puts much stock in external good works. Both put much 
stock in purification of the mind. This is a very important point. 

Buddha did not have any prescription: "Do this and you will move 
toward enlightenment." He did not say: "Sit on a cushion and direct 
attention to the sensation of the breath on the area above the upper 
lip as that breath enters and leaves the nose. If you do so, you will 
be enlightened." Instead, he talked a lot about wisdom and gave lots 
of example of wise people doing this and lots of "good works", but it 
is the wisdom and not the work that is important. Bramajala sutta has 
a wonderful discussion of this point. Buddha talks about how 
superficial people praise him for his good works, but those who have 
a deeper understanding recognize that the good works flow from his 
wisdom rather than the other way around, and that it is his wisdom 
that is most deserving of praise.

"The Bondage of the Will" is a wonderful book that Martin Luther 
wrote about the Christian conception that any activity directed by 
the will is not only ineffectual for attaining salvation, it is 
downright sinful because it demonstrates a lack of faith in God---
shades of "sakaya ditthi is akusala" and "liberation by insight, not 
by ritual meditation or chanting or reading". 

Dan

 
5576 From: Darren Goh   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:20am
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Loke, 

There's really nothing wrong about being "converted" back to 
Christian. If one thinks that's the spiritual path he/she would take 
to find happiness, then he/she should do that. If the conditions are 
there, then it'll happen. You were simply presenting a topic for 
discussion, we all have to make our own interpretation, and come to 
our own understanding. Ultimately, whether we are Christians or 
Buddhists, Dhamma still be true, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Hopefully 
even with a little understanding of Dhamma, a bodhi seed would be 
planted and florish eventually. 

Sincerely, 
Darren


--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Dear all contributors and lurkers,
> 
> 		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and 
Buddhism...
> and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, 
something came
> into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
> Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and 
revert back
> to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in 
worse than
> avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise 
on my
> part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many 
reasons
> that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise 
the
> damage... Please give opinion
> 
> Sarah,
> 
> 	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to 
reply me
> off list..
> 
> Rgds,
> 
> Loke CL

 
5577 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Hi K. Num,
Thanks for your help. It is the the sutta I was looking for.
Also thanks for the Thai Tipitaka link, eventhough I don't read good
thai now, it might be useful in the future.
Metta,

Sukin.

Num wrote:

> Hi K.Sukin,
>
> I tried a search on  http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm.  It's
> in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai Tipitaka.  Kom gave me this
> link.  I found it's easier to search on this site than on my CD rom.  I
> haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my cdrom yet.
>
> I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta pitaka, majhima-nikaya,
> vol.13/45.  (146), anapanasati-bhavana, maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before
> chula-malungayabutta sutta.
>
> Regards,
>
> Num
>
>
>
>

 
5578 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  actually Darren, I mean when converting I should mentioning specifically
about practising wrong views and practises.. hences an akusala... vipaka of
raising an issue that cause the reaction towards wrong views.....

Loke

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Darren Goh 
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:20 AM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion
> 
> Loke, 
> 
> There's really nothing wrong about being "converted" back to 
> Christian. If one thinks that's the spiritual path he/she would take 
> to find happiness, then he/she should do that. If the conditions are 
> there, then it'll happen. You were simply presenting a topic for 
> discussion, we all have to make our own interpretation, and come to 
> our own understanding. Ultimately, whether we are Christians or 
> Buddhists, Dhamma still be true, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Hopefully 
> even with a little understanding of Dhamma, a bodhi seed would be 
> planted and florish eventually. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Darren
> 
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > Dear all contributors and lurkers,
> > 
> > 		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and 
> Buddhism...
> > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, 
> something came
> > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
> > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and 
> revert back
> > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in 
> worse than
> > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise 
> on my
> > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many 
> reasons
> > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise 
> the
> > damage... Please give opinion
> > 
> > Sarah,
> > 
> > 	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to 
> reply me
> > off list..
> > 
> > Rgds,
> > 
> > Loke CL
> 

 
5579 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Thankyou very much Mike, I did expect you to be the one if any
to find it for me.
Also very happy to hear you again after such a long gap, always
enjoy reading your posts.
Metta,

Sukin

"m. nease" wrote:

> Thanks, Num,
>
> Sukin, here's an English translation (with Pali at the
> same site):
>
> "Rahula, when mindfulness of in breaths and out
> breaths are developed and made much in this manner,
> even the last breath leaves with your knowledge."
>
> http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha-rahulovada-e1.htm
>
> --- Num wrote:
>
> > Hi K.Sukin,
> >
> > I tried a search on
> > http://dharma.school.net.th/buddhism/tsearch.htm.
> > It's
> > in Thai, you can search the whole 45 vol. of Thai
> > Tipitaka.  Kom gave me this
> > link.  I found it's easier to search on this site
> > than on my CD rom.  I
> > haven't compared the accuracy of the site to my
> > cdrom yet.
> >
> > I think the quote you mentioned is from suttanta
> > pitaka, majhima-nikaya,
> > vol.13/45.  (146), anapanasati-bhavana,
> > maha-rahulo-vada-sutta. Right before
> > chula-malungayabutta sutta.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Num
>
 
  
 
5580 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:44pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Herman.. you raised very interesting question.. Is Buddha a Buddhists ???
how should this question to be answered correctly and clearly... I am a bit
confused also... thanks for your help...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Herman [SMTP:Herman]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:11 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion
> 
> Dear CL,
> 
> I believe you need not worry. If it were possible to cause wrong view 
> to arise then it would also be posible to cause right view to arise, 
> in which case you would have done that a long time ago! 
> 
> Question: If that were really possible, would everyone be Buddhist?
> 
> Answer: Is Buddha Buddhist?
> 
> 
> Metta
> 
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > Dear all contributors and lurkers,
> > 
> > 		Recently I have spoken about Christianity and 
> Buddhism...
> > and all sorts of questions. Yesterday while reading the DSG, 
> something came
> > into my mind. If the topics that I raised in the DSG regarding the
> > Christianity issue, caused some Buddhists to doubt Buddhism and 
> revert back
> > to Christianity (which boils down to wrong view, which vipaka in 
> worse than
> > avici hell), then the accumulations of unwholesome karma will arise 
> on my
> > part... Tell me what do you think ? I think that is one of the many 
> reasons
> > that I requested to reply this issue off-list ... sort of minimise 
> the
> > damage... Please give opinion
> > 
> > Sarah,
> > 
> > 	I think this is one of the reasons that I chose people to 
> reply me
> > off list..
> > 
> > Rgds,
> > 
> > Loke CL

 
5581 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Awareness of Hindrances

 
  Dan

--- Dan wrote: > Dear Jon,
> Your passage from MN 10 is wonderful, but could you explain how this 
> confirms the view that development of awareness of the reality of the 
> present moment is the same whether the reality of that moment is one 
> of the hindrances or not? I just don't see any comparisons being made 
> between awareness of hindrances and awareness of other dhammas, much 
> less how the development of awareness is "the same" regardless of 
> object.


I see your point.  My comments were somewhat cryptic (or pithy, as I would
prefer to describe them!).

My reading of the passage is that whether the reality of the present
moment is a hindrance or is a reality other than a hindrance, the
development of mindfulness/awareness is the same, namely mindfulness of,
or understanding of, that present moment as it really is.

Interestingly, the passage on the seven enlightenment factors is in
exactly the same terms--

"Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as
mind-objects in terms of the seven enlightenment factors.  And how does a
bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the
seven enlightenment factors?  Here, there being the mindfulness
enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is the
mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; or there being no mindfulness
enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is no
mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'�"  [and similarly for the other 6
enlightenment factors].

Jon

Original passage--
"Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms
of the five hindrances.  And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating
mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances?  Here, there
being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is sensual
desire in me'; or there being no sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu
understands:  'There is no sensual desire in me' �
There being ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is ill-will in
me'; or there being no ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is
no ill-will in me' �
There being sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in him, a
bhikkhu understands:  'There is sloth and torpor, restlessness and
remorse, doubt in me'; or there being no sloth and torpor, restlessness
and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is no sloth and
torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'�"



 
5582 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  --- Dan wrote:

> Jon:
> > You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha 
> and the
> > arising of moments of insight.  If I understand correctly, that 
> connection
> > is supported by the following reasoning:
> > -  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
> > -  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development 
of
> > samatha
> > -  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the 
hindrances, 
> (and
> > not otherwise,??) insight can arise.
> > 
> > While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 
> propositions, the
> > 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that 
however 
> is
> > not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read.  
> 
> I don't think this is what Erik is saying at all. Insight does not 
> arise BY samatha and suppressing the hindrances. However, samatha 
and 
> suppressing the hindrances can condition a STRENTGTHENING of 
insight 
> by allowing a clearer view to realities. To emphasize the first 
> point: Even when samatha lifts a fog, sati and vipassana might 
still 
> keep their eyes closed. When the fog is lifted, the landscape can 
be 
> viewed with wisdom or not.

Right Dan. All I was getting at here is the following:

If the hindrances are present, insight cannot arise. Is insight alone 
sufficient to suppress the hindrances? For some, perhaps. But I have 
to say from my own experience that I need samatha, that insight 
practice alone does not work for me, because my mind remains 
unworkable, unpliant without it. For me the difference between 
samatha and no samatha is like night & day. Others' mileage may of 
course vary, but this is my own observation, for whatever it's worth.

 
5583 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Howard

Thanks for your comments and the references below.  

You mention towards the end of your post the opportunity for exercising
right effort.

As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to be
developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at moments of
true satipatthana.  At such moments, and at such moments only, the path
leading out of samsara is being developed.

When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their
particular 'path-factor' function.  In the case of right effort, that
function is the four-fold one so often encountered, and referred to in one
of Dan's recent posts as the 4 right strivings--

"The four right strivings--Herein a bhikkhu engenders wish,  makes effort,
arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad
states that have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy,
exerts the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have
arisen;..."

The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional kind,
because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though our aim
may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather the
effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana.

This of course puts a whole different gloss on the development of the
path, because it means that at moments of satipatthana all the necessary
factors are being developed, without the need for them to be developed
individually, as it were.  Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards
the senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises.

Jon


--- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a message dated 6/12/01 9:44:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jonothan Abbott writes:
> 
> 
> > Howard
> > 
> > >        One disclaimer to the foregoing: None of the preceding is to
> deny
> > > the 
> > > importance of guarding the senses and exercising right effort. An
> > > important 
> > > function of our practice of mindfulness is to catch the inclination
> to
> > > react 
> > > at an early stage, ideally at the point of the arising of vedana,
> see
> > > the 
> > > inclination to react clearly, and let it go, as opposed to letting
> it
> > > build 
> > > and proliferate. But this is not repression. It is just the
> opposite.
> > 
> > I hope you don't mind me coming in with a word of caution.  Could
> there be
> > the subtle idea here of awareness as a means of dealing with akusala?
> > 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I don't follow you, Jon. There's no subtle idea involved here. To
> be 
> watchful, to be on the lookout for the commencing of reacting to vedana,
> 
> requires a constant vigilant exercise of mindfulness.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > 
> > The function of awareness is to be aware of (=study) by direct
> experience
> > the reality that appears at the present moment, so that the reality
> can be
> > seen for what it is.
> > 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Yes. Remembering to stay present, so that clear comprehension can
> come 
> into play. (I assume that when you write 'awareness', that is your 
> translation for 'sati'.)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>    Awareness is not a means by which we can 'catch'
> akusala inclinations at an early stage, since it cannot be directed to
> any
> particular object.  If we have the expectation of some immediate or
> direct
> result in terms of the level of akusala experienced in our lives, this
> is
> probably no less an intervention of 'self' than is the idea that the
> akusala can be suppressed. 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Sorry. I don't get you here at all. I'm talking about staying
> mindful 
> and observing with clear comprehension. The more microscopically and
> clearly 
> we can see what actually arises, the more opportunity we have for
> exercising 
> right effort. When we are not mindful, then reactions are automatic and 
> inevitable. There is no question of expectations here or of instant
> fixes. 
> What is involved here is the development of a habituated practice of
> stopping 
> and looking as an alternative to going through life asleep. By stopping
> and 
> seeing what really is happening, there is the opportunity for both the 
> exercise of right effort (and also for the arising of wisdom). We have
> one 
> primary choice: to be awake or to be asleep. To emphasize my main point,
> let 
> me give here an excerpt abtained from the Access to Insight site: 

>                          Abandoning the wrong factors of the path
> 
> 
> > "One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in <A
> HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ditthi.html">right
> view</A>: 
> > This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong
> resolve 
> > & to enter & remain in <A
> HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-sankappo.html">right
> resolve</A>: This is one's right mindfulness... 
> > "One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in <A
> HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vaca.html">right
> speech</A>
> > : This is one's right mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong 
> > action & to enter & remain in <A
> HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-kammanto.html">right
> action</A>: This is one's right 
> > mindfulness... "One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter
> & 
> > remain in <A
> HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-ajivo.html">right
> livelihood</A>: This is one's right mindfulness..." 
> > >> -- <A
> HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html">MN
> 117</A>
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------
>  Jon
> ===========================
> With metta,
> Howard




 
5584 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:32pm
Subject: Re: Awareness of Hindrances

 
  > My reading of the passage is that whether the reality of the present
> moment is a hindrance or is a reality other than a hindrance, the
> development of mindfulness/awareness is the same, namely 
mindfulness of,
> or understanding of, that present moment as it really is.

Dogs and turtles are not the same even though they both breathe and 
have four legs. 

> Interestingly, the passage on the seven enlightenment factors is in
> exactly the same terms--
> 
> "Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as
> mind-objects in terms of the seven enlightenment factors.  And how 
does a
> bhikkhu abide contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in terms 
of the
> seven enlightenment factors?  Here, there being the mindfulness
> enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is the
> mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'; or there being no 
mindfulness
> enlightenment factor in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is no
> mindfulness enlightenment factor in me'�"  [and similarly for the 
other 6
> enlightenment factors].
> 
> Jon
> 
> Original passage--
> "Here a bhikkhu abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects 
in terms
> of the five hindrances.  And how does a bhikkhu abide contemplating
> mind-objects as mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances?  
Here, there
> being sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is 
sensual
> desire in me'; or there being no sensual desire in him, a bhikkhu
> understands:  'There is no sensual desire in me' �
> There being ill-will in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is ill-
will in
> me'; or there being no ill-will in him, a bhikkhu 
understands:  'There is
> no ill-will in me' �
> There being sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in 
him, a
> bhikkhu understands:  'There is sloth and torpor, restlessness and
> remorse, doubt in me'; or there being no sloth and torpor, 
restlessness
> and remorse, doubt in him, a bhikkhu understands:  'There is no 
sloth and
> torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt in me'�"
> 

 
5585 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Mike

Thanks for raising this question, and I don't think you've misunderstood
anything.  What you say about the manifestation of defilements, but not
the latent tendencies, being suppressed by jhana is quite correct
according to my understanding also.  

The problem perhaps lies in my choice of the term anusaya in the passage
below to mean our accumulated tendency for kilesa in general including
those that are classed as the hindrances (when they manifest - at other
times they are latent).  It would have been better if I had spelt out
exactly what I meant.

I hope I have understood your point correctly and that this has cleared it
up - if not, please say.

Jon

--- "m. nease"  wrote: > Jon and Erik,
> 
> Just an aside (I think):
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> You make a very direct connection between the practice
> 
> of samatha and the arising of moments of insight.  If
> I understand correctly, that connection is supported
> by the following reasoning:
> -  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
> -  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the 
> development of
> samatha
> -  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the
> 
> hindrances, (and not otherwise,??) insight can arise.
> 
> While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first
> 
> 2 propositions, the 3rd is one of those persuasively
> 'logical' conclusions that however is
> not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read.  I 
> realise this is a matter of interpretation, but I
> believe the reasoning given confuses the 2 kinds of
> bhavana.  The fact that we still have the anusaya
> surely does not preclude the arising of awareness of a
> present reality?
> ---------------------------------------
> I'm not arguing with either of you here, but Jon's
> last question made me wonder if I've misunderstood
> something.  As I (thought I) understood it, the medium
> and coarse defilements (mental, verbal and physical),
> not the anusaya, are supressed by samatha...?  Mental
> kamma isn't considered latent, is it?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> mike
> 



 
5586 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:04am
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dear Jon,
Again, we are not so far apart. You wrote:
> As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to 
be
> developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at 
moments of
> true satipatthana.  At such moments, and at such moments only, the 
path
> leading out of samsara is being developed.
> When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their
> particular 'path-factor' function.  

The conventional, everyday notions of "trying hard", "arousing 
energy", "making wish", "strives for the non-arising of [akusala]" 
etc. is indeed closely linked to atta or sakaya ditthi. 

But understanding of right striving can only come about when the veil 
of ignorance about the nature of conventional, everyday striving is 
lifted. By just talking about the imperfections of conventional 
striving we run the risk of dismissing or rejecting those 
conventional notions before understanding has grown strong enough to 
replace the conventional notions with the right ones in practice and 
everyday living. The result could too easily be a Jack Kerouac, 
Timothy Leary, Beat, superficial understanding of the concept with a 
feeling of relief that there's no one responsible for the kusala and 
akusala. It would not be beneficial to replace the conventional 
understanding of "engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, 
exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad states that 
have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy, exerts 
the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have 
arisen;..." with its conventional counterpart "does not engender 
wish, cannot arouse right energy, does not exert the mind, should not 
strive for the non-arising of evil bad states..." This miccha ditthi 
would be more along the lines of "...no fruit or result of good and 
bad actions; no this world, no other world...", which is so often and 
so easily more serious than the sakaya ditthi of conventional 
understanding of "striving". This miccha ditthi breeds a sense of 
complacency and a weakening of a sense of responsibility (ahiri and 
anottapa) that are not conducive to development of insight ["Oh, it 
is such a relief to know there is no one responsible for kusala and 
akusala".] 

This reminds of an encounter with my first meditation teacher in 
Thailand. When I was an undergraduate college student, I found 
classes pretty easy and I always tried to do just well enough to get 
an A-, which really wasn't difficult most of the time. After 
graduating, I went immediately to graduate school in pure math. 
Although I went to a fancy school for my undergraduate degree and a 
second tier graduate school, the quality of work expected in graduate 
school was so much higher than that expected in undergraduate school 
that I had tremendous difficulty keeping up because I never learned 
how to work when I was an undergraduate. Near the end of the first 
year, I was struggling to pass one of my classes and getting quite 
stressed about it. I then reflected briefly (and wrongly!) on 
some "Buddhist" and "Taoist" notions of "striving is unwholesome; not-
striving is wholesome". The answer was then oh-so-clear: Just skip 
the final! What a great sense of relief! I couldn't expect to pass 
the class, then, but the idea of caring about passing a class is just 
evidence of ego and clinging, so why should I care about the class?! 
Just forget about it instead! I was proud of this insight and told my 
monk teacher the story. He said [paraphrase]: "When are you going to 
learn to deal with difficult situations responsibly?" Oh my! How 
right he was! The idea is to remove the self from the striving, not 
to remove the striving, i.e. to make the striving "right striving" 
not by abandoning striving but by abandoning the wrongness of the 
striving. 

This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful use of language and 
why "path" means so much more than any single moment of consciousness 
and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to interpret the 
words in a conventional sense (good in the beginning), in a deeper 
philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in the deepest, 
liberating sense (good in the end). It is extraordinarily helpful to 
present these ideas in language that is so rich and has so much depth 
that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who are willing to 
listen, those who understand it all at just the conventional level 
and those who understand it at the deepest levels.

This highlights one of our differences. You wrote:
> The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional 
kind,
> because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though 
our aim
> may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather 
the
> effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana.

I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a master of 
language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful in his thinking 
that his statements can be interpreted on a number of different 
levels and they make sense on a number of different levels, depending 
on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd agree that the 
meaning of "effort" you are referring to is certainly a part of the 
teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich enough to make 
sense on a conventional level as well? If not, then why would he make 
such extensive use of conventional language without giving us an 
explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did not mean what they 
seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, intended solely for 
those who could understand the concepts at their deepest level? If 
so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it seems to me, but 
from my experience, any of my guesses about the depth of the teaching 
always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate to accept that the 
language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant to be taken on one 
level.

Dan

 
5587 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Jon,

That does clarify the point--thanks.

mike

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> I hope I have understood your point correctly and
> that this has cleared it
> up - if not, please say.



 
5588 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:07am
Subject: Re: In my opinion [Rob]

 
  Dear Robert,

You wrote:
> It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god
> (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> serious the view is. 
Isn't kamma more about the volition than the works? (AN iii, 415). 
Isn't it a path of purification rather than a prescriptive path 
of "do this good work" and "do that good work"?

Dan

 
5589 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:15am
Subject: testing

 
  Hi all, this is a very boring message I'm posting just to see if 
everything is working o.k. About 5 minutes ago I finished writing a 
message that took over an hour to write, posted it, and it hasn't 
showed up yet. I'm just checking to see if the server is working 
right.

 
5590 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Got it, Dan--thanks...

mike

--- Dan wrote:

["Oh, it 
is such a relief to know there is no one responsible 
for kusala and 
akusala".


 
5591 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Hi, Dan (and Jon) -

Hi, Dan -

In a message dated 6/13/01 1:43:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan writes in the second part of his post:
       

> This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful use of language and 
> why "path" means so much more than any single moment of consciousness 
> and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to interpret the 
> words in a conventional sense (good in the beginning), in a deeper 
> philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in the deepest, 
> liberating sense (good in the end). It is extraordinarily helpful to 
> present these ideas in language that is so rich and has so much depth 
> that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who are willing to 
> listen, those who understand it all at just the conventional level 
> and those who understand it at the deepest levels.
> 
> This highlights one of our differences. You wrote:
> > The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional 
> kind,
> > because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though 
> our aim
> > may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather 
> the
> > effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana.
> 
> I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a master of 
> language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful in his thinking 
> that his statements can be interpreted on a number of different 
> levels and they make sense on a number of different levels, depending 
> on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd agree that the 
> meaning of "effort" you are referring to is certainly a part of the 
> teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich enough to make 
> sense on a conventional level as well? If not, then why would he make 
> such extensive use of conventional language without giving us an 
> explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did not mean what they 
> seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, intended solely for 
> those who could understand the concepts at their deepest level? If 
> so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it seems to me, but 
> from my experience, any of my guesses about the depth of the teaching 
> always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate to accept that the 
> language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant to be taken on one 
> level.
> 
> Dan
> 
===============================
       I very much agree with you, Dan. The Buddha taught worldlings for the 
most part, some stream enterers, and far fewer higher attainers. Any people 
he taught had to commence their practice from where they were, not from the 
level of an arahant. The effort they had to put forward was, for the most 
part, conventional effort. Most of them came to practice with a well 
established sense of self and even a strong *belief* in self. But as they 
practiced, with the development of calm and insight, they came to glimpse the 
impersonality, insubstantiality, unsatisfactoriness, and impermanence of all 
the dhammas they observed, and slowly, the nature of their practice changed. 
       We begin where we are. Our world is a world of convention for a long, 
long time. If it needed to be otherwise for practice to proceed, then there 
would never be arahants in the world.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5592 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:44pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Awareness of Hindrances

 
  Hi, Dan (and Jon) -

In a message dated 6/13/01 1:52:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan writes:


> > My reading of the passage is that whether the reality of the present
> > moment is a hindrance or is a reality other than a hindrance, the
> > development of mindfulness/awareness is the same, namely 
> mindfulness of,
> > or understanding of, that present moment as it really is.
> 
> Dogs and turtles are not the same even though they both breathe and 
> have four legs. 
> 
> 
===============================
       I'm missing your point, Dan. Here the dogs and turtles are hindrances 
and non-hindrances. They are the dhammas that are objects of ones attention. 
I agree that they do condition that attention, but only in the sense that 
attending to one thing is not attending to another. Clear comprehension of 
exactly what is being observed, however, is the same whenever it exists - it 
is just clear comprehension. The development of mindfulness of whatever is 
arising is precisely that: developing the presence of mind needed to clearly 
comprehend, with equanimity, whatever it is that arises at any given time, 
regardless of what that might be.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5593 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Hi, all -

In a message dated 6/13/01 2:20:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes:


> Hi, Dan (and Jon) -
> 
> 
==============================
       Apologies for the double salutation! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5594 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:22am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/13/01 5:10:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> Howard
> 
> Thanks for your comments and the references below.  
> 
> You mention towards the end of your post the opportunity for exercising
> right effort.
> 
> As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to be
> developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together at moments of
> true satipatthana.  At such moments, and at such moments only, the path
> leading out of samsara is being developed.
> 
> When those factors arise at such moments they each perform their
> particular 'path-factor' function.  In the case of right effort, that
> function is the four-fold one so often encountered, and referred to in one
> of Dan's recent posts as the 4 right strivings--
> 
> "The four right strivings--Herein a bhikkhu engenders wish,  makes effort,
> arouses energy, exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad
> states that have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses energy,
> exerts the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have
> arisen;..."
> 
> The effort being referred to here is not effort of the conventional kind,
> because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even though our aim
> may be the development of the path as we understand it) but rather the
> effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana.
> 
> This of course puts a whole different gloss on the development of the
> path, because it means that at moments of satipatthana all the necessary
> factors are being developed, without the need for them to be developed
> individually, as it were.  Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards
> the senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises.
> 
> Jon
> 
=============================
       I understand what you are saying, but I believe that there are (at 
least) two senses of the (noble 8-fold) path, the higher being the 
supermundane path, and the lower being the mundane path. We start on the 
mundane path. We begin where we are, else there is no beginning, and hence no 
ending. The cultivation of all the factors of mindfulness starts on the 
mundane path. You write "Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards the 
senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises." But this arising of 
mindfulness is not a random occurrence - nothing comes from nothing, but 
results from practice, and that practice includes persistent mundane effort.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
5595 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:21am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Thank you again, Howard.

mn
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Dan (and Jon) -
> 
> Hi, Dan -
> 
> In a message dated 6/13/01 1:43:22 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> Dan writes in the second part
> of his post:
>        
> 
> > This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful
> use of language and 
> > why "path" means so much more than any single
> moment of consciousness 
> > and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to
> interpret the 
> > words in a conventional sense (good in the
> beginning), in a deeper 
> > philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in
> the deepest, 
> > liberating sense (good in the end). It is
> extraordinarily helpful to 
> > present these ideas in language that is so rich
> and has so much depth 
> > that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who
> are willing to 
> > listen, those who understand it all at just the
> conventional level 
> > and those who understand it at the deepest levels.
> > 
> > This highlights one of our differences. You wrote:
> > > The effort being referred to here is not effort
> of the conventional 
> > kind,
> > > because that inevitably involves the idea of a
> self (even though 
> > our aim
> > > may be the development of the path as we
> understand it) but rather 
> > the
> > > effort that accompanies a moment of
> satipatthana.
> > 
> > I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a
> master of 
> > language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful
> in his thinking 
> > that his statements can be interpreted on a number
> of different 
> > levels and they make sense on a number of
> different levels, depending 
> > on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd
> agree that the 
> > meaning of "effort" you are referring to is
> certainly a part of the 
> > teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich
> enough to make 
> > sense on a conventional level as well? If not,
> then why would he make 
> > such extensive use of conventional language
> without giving us an 
> > explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did
> not mean what they 
> > seem to mean? Was he talking in code language,
> intended solely for 
> > those who could understand the concepts at their
> deepest level? If 
> > so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it
> seems to me, but 
> > from my experience, any of my guesses about the
> depth of the teaching 
> > always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate
> to accept that the 
> > language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant
> to be taken on one 
> > level.
> > 
> > Dan
> > 
> ===============================
>        I very much agree with you, Dan. The Buddha
> taught worldlings for the 
> most part, some stream enterers, and far fewer
> higher attainers. Any people 
> he taught had to commence their practice from where
> they were, not from the 
> level of an arahant. The effort they had to put
> forward was, for the most 
> part, conventional effort. Most of them came to
> practice with a well 
> established sense of self and even a strong *belief*
> in self. But as they 
> practiced, with the development of calm and insight,
> they came to glimpse the 
> impersonality, insubstantiality, unsatisfactoriness,
> and impermanence of all 
> the dhammas they observed, and slowly, the nature of
> their practice changed. 
>        We begin where we are. Our world is a world
> of convention for a long, 
> long time. If it needed to be otherwise for practice
> to proceed, then there 
> would never be arahants in the world.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A
> star at dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
> a flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> Sutra)                    
>             



 
5596 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Hi, Jon (and Mike, and all) -

In a message dated 6/13/01 5:22:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes:


> The cultivation of all the factors of mindfulness starts on the mundane 
> 
==========================
This was an error. I meant to write "factors of enlightenment".

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5597 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Dear Sukin,

It's good to see you on list!

Any particular interest in this passage?

--- Sukinderpal Singh Narula  wrote: > Dear Group,
> Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context?
> 
> "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and 
> regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will 
> pass consciously,not unconsciously".


You wrote to me off-list and I wrote a reply which got lost, so if you don't
mind I'll add one or two short comments on list as I'm very rushed this week...

*********************************************************************
Sarah wrote:> Everytime we meet you in Bkk we're so impressed by your keen
interest and
> ability to listen very carefully (which is unusual).

Sukin wrote: 'Keen interest' maybe; but  'ability to listen very carefully', I
don't know. I
find that
my mind is perpetually clouded, something like thick rain clouds across the 
sky.
I feel like there is only moha, moha, moha everywhere,......" 
***************************************************************************

Join the club!  I think that beginning to realise that there really is moha at
every turn is a big step in the right direction! Usually we're just interested
in the dosa because it's so unpleasant but what about all the lobha and moha
that we're seldom interested in?

I find it so encouraging that sati really can arise at any time and know any
reality. So even when the mind seems so clouded there are realities to be
known. They may not be the ones we'd choose if we could, but they are what are
conditioned at that moment and are ripe for sati to be aware of. When we begin
to realise that even when listening to dhamma, there are so many different
moments of kusala and akusala and of course seeing, hearing and the other sense
door processes in between, it shows there is a beginning of understanding of
the Buddha's teachings.

*******************************
Sukin said "and sometimes
 I feel like there is
perpetual
anger." 
*********************************

As I mentioned to Cybele, it may seem that we've had a day, a week or a month
of unpleasantness and dosa. Of course we are most concerned about it because it
is unpleasant. Probably at any given time, everyone on the list is experiencing
some conventional difficulties- financial, health, family or whatever-  but of
course, really the problem is the moha and lack of understanding at any given
time.

****************************************************************************
Sukin said "I  know that I am not taking into consideration, moments when there
are
more kusala cittas. But when I come across posts of different members on this
and another list, by comparision I feel not only stupid, but also 'defiled'."
***************************************************************************

The comparison is conceit, mana, is it not? It's so common and I'm sure many of
us have similar thoughts from time to time, but it is just thinking about these
useless stories! In reality, no self but yes, lots of akusala citttas!

****************************************************************************
Sukin said "Therefore much of the time I don't feel that I  have anything
useful to add to
the discussions, though I do interpret what I read and tell myself that I
understand
and that I am able to keep up with the group. At other times I doubt the level 
of
understanding but do not know exactly where I'm at."
****************************************************************************

I don't think we have to try to work this out! Moments of doubt and worrying
are just that...they can also be known. At a moment of awareness (at any level)
and understanding, there is no doubt or thinking in this way. So glad you're
keeping up too!


********************************************************************************Sukin
said " I think your understading and mine are widely 
different,

I have a long way to go."
************************************************

We all have a long way to go..just one step at a time...

In fact I was going to say to Paul and others on the topic of 'having one's
kilesa on show as an example of Buddhism'....I don't try to defend the
unwholesome speech/acts,  but  say 'yes, I'm just a beginner,,,'

Look forward to hearing more!

Very best wishes,
Sarah

p.s. thanks for letting me reply on list to yr comments here







 
5598 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks RE Transfer of Merit to the Dead (boasting/dhana?)

 
  Dear Kom,

I've been busy...my last week of teaching for the school year. We'll be going
off  to Europe at the end of next week. Hence, lots of delays to posts!

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> This aspect of dhana is pretty interesting and delicate. 

I agree and also with all your points below.
> 
> 1) I found myself sometimes wondering about the motives of persons 
> telling me about their good deeds.  On the other hand, we know that 
> this doubt is most certainly the hearer's akusala, and that there 
> *must* be kusala for the giver at the moment of the actual dhana.  So 
> speculating about other people's motive at the time of the telling is 
> somewhat moot as we can almost never be certain (unless the person 
> really does it excessively?).
> 
> 2) I have listened to some tape made by T.A. Sujin talking about some 
> people who takes the dana up to a finer level: the person would 
> explain the details about the dana and sometimes actually showing the 
> other person the dana objects for the other to have the opportunity 
> to have even stronger (somannassa and piti) anumoddhana!

yes and wise reflection on dana (any dana, one's own or the other's) can give
rise to moments of samatha and to the development of samatha in daily life.
> 
> 3) There are many suttas about people in the suttas "raising their 
> flag" just because of one good quality/achievement they have.  We 
> know that mana can be the motive of such deed.
> 
> 4) It is almost as effective to tell of others' kusalas giving the 
> opportunities for others to rejoice.  I personally found the teller's 
> motive to be more often purer (not always!), and the hearer's 
> rejoicing to come easier.  Of course, there is always the problem 
> with the attachment to the associations of certain people (telling of 
> only my friend's good deeds but not others).

Both good points and I agree!
> 
> 5) For just observing her for the time that we spent with her, she 
> hardly needs to say what good deeds she has done as they come across 
> without being told!  Seeing it has much higher quality for rejoicing 
> than hearing about it.

Exactly! 

We've been considering this area in a very similar manner and i appreciated
your post.

Sarah



 
5599 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for taking time to reply and remind me of the essentials.
Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:

> Any particular interest in this passage?
> > Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context?
> >
> > "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and
> > regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will
> > pass consciously,not unconsciously".

I was thinking why Buddha gave such importance to mindfulness of
breath that he even talked about the last breath at the time of death.
But after reading the sutta, what I understood was that he mentioned it
at the very end to show that if the meditation is done regularly in the
correct manner, even the last breath, at the time of death, can be known.

> Join the club!  I think that beginning to realise that there really is moha at
> every turn is a big step in the right direction! Usually we're just interested
> in the dosa because it's so unpleasant but what about all the lobha and moha
> that we're seldom interested in?

I was thinking also in terms of not being clear enough to put into words the
prevailing state of mind and consequently feeling discouraged and then loosing
interest.

> I find it so encouraging that sati really can arise at any time and know any
> reality. So even when the mind seems so clouded there are realities to be
> known. They may not be the ones we'd choose if we could, but they are what are
> conditioned at that moment and are ripe for sati to be aware of. When we begin
> to realise that even when listening to dhamma, there are so many different
> moments of kusala and akusala and of course seeing, hearing and the other sense
> door processes in between, it shows there is a beginning of understanding of
> the Buddha's teachings.

This kind of understanding happens very rarely to me.

> As I mentioned to Cybele, it may seem that we've had a day, a week or a month
> of unpleasantness and dosa. Of course we are most concerned about it because it
> is unpleasant. Probably at any given time, everyone on the list is experiencing
> some conventional difficulties- financial, health, family or whatever-  but of
> course, really the problem is the moha and lack of understanding at any given
> time.

Sometimes I think that it is silly to complain about anything, but such moments a rare.

> The comparison is conceit, mana, is it not? It's so common and I'm sure many of
> us have similar thoughts from time to time, but it is just thinking about these
> useless stories! In reality, no self but yes, lots of akusala citttas!

Yes, and also to think that anything can be done to change the course of events.
But very very hard to see this.

> I don't think we have to try to work this out! Moments of doubt and worrying
> are just that...they can also be known. At a moment of awareness (at any level)
> and understanding, there is no doubt or thinking in this way.

I wish I can remember this more often.( the wish is not without lobha).

> In fact I was going to say to Paul and others on the topic of 'having one's
> kilesa on show as an example of Buddhism'....I don't try to defend the
> unwholesome speech/acts,  but  say 'yes, I'm just a beginner,,,'

If you can say that, then why can't I.

> Look forward to hearing more!

Thanks for the encouragement.

> Very best wishes,
> Sarah
>

Best wishes to you,
Sukin.

ps. I was wondering this morning. What was the future Buddha doing,
right up until the last moment before he attained enlightenment? I mean
particularly, when he decided on the last day, not to arise from his seat
until he arived at an understanding.

 
5600 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation

 
  Dear Gaopeng,

i was somewhat surprised that no one responded to your message about the group
in Taiwan offering free books:---  

Gaopeng wrote: 
> > 
> > The above website just established its website last
> > year [ 1st Dec 
> > 2000 ] here : [ But  it is written in Chinese
> > language :-)]
> > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/
> > 
> > You could surf this website for the catalogue of the
> > dhamma books free 
> > for distribution which are currently available:
> > 
> > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign
> > 
> > [I direct translated from the above website how to
> > request the dhamma 
> > books as it is only written in chinese :-)]

This was kind of you to help. Maybe if anyone asks for the books, if they have
any difficulties, you can help too.

all the dhamma books here are for FREE
> > distribution. 

I find it amazing.

> > [4]There is some very few limited items left which
> > are  not listed in 
> > the above website due to the small amount stock
> > left, this are 
> > reserved for those right ones to request, so it is
> > not convinience to 
> > list this items publicly, if you really need this
> > not listed items, 
> > you are welcome to request through phone, fax, post
> > or email to ask 
> > for further information.

Erik, you never know, they may be able to help you out:-))


> >     [c] apart from the above [a] & [b] for  foreign
> > language [english, 
> > sri lanka, vietname etc] dhamma books , please write
> > to 
> >    [overseas@ budaedu.org.tw ]
> > ====================================================
> > 
> > Normally the catalogue of the dhamma books available
> > are updated in a 
> > monthly basis. Below are some of the foreign
> > language books currently 
> > available I took from the above website as some of
> > the term are 
> > written in chinese:  
> > 
> > Foreign Language Dhamma Books (Updated :
> > 2001.May.01.)
> > 
> > Book Name     {Author}      [Language]      (Printed
> > Amount/units)
> > 
> > -DHAMMA VIVIENTE <Original English Name: LIVING
> > DHAMMA>{Ven. Ajahn 
> > Chan}[Spanish] (10,000 units)                       
> >                  
> > -BUDDHISM IN A NUTSHELL {Ven.NANDA} [English] (5,000
> > units)           
> > -THE BUDDHA'S ANCENT PATH [English] (5,000 units)
> > -MAY FLOWER II [English] (5,000 units)
> > -Pure-Land Zen , Zen Pure-Land [English] (5,000
> > units)
> > -BUDDHISM OF WISDOM & FAITH [English] (5,000 units)
> > -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [English] (3,000 units)

pls note anyone....!!!

> > -BUDDHISM AS AN EDUCATION [English] (5,000 units)
> > -THE WAY IT IS [English] (5,000 units)
> > -THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH [English] (4,000 units)
> > -BUDDHISM: THE WISDOM OF COMPASSION AND AWAKENING
> > [English] (10,000 
> > units)
> > -TO UNDERSTAND BUDDHISM [English] (10,000 units)
> > -AN ELEMENTARY PALI COURSE [English] (2,000 units)
> > -On Amidism,To Be Born in a Lotus,A Buddhist Goal
> > that can be 
> > [English] (4,000 units)
> > -EMPTY CLOUD: THE TEACHINGS OF XU YUN AND A
> > REMEMBRANCE OF THE GREAT 
> > CHINESE ZEN MASTER [English] (4,000 units)
> > -THE SUTRA OF BODHISATTYA KSITIGARBHA'S FUNDAMENTAL
> > VOWS [English] 
> > (5,000 units)
> > -THUS HAVE I HEARD [English] (5,000 units)
> > -CHANGING DESTINY [English] (10,000 units)
> > -VIPASSANA MEDITATION [German]
> > -VINAYA TIPITAKA [India Language] {3,000 units)
> > -WHY MEDITATION [India Language/Dialect Marathi]
> > -MINDFULNESS:THE PATH TO THE DEATH [Italy Language]
> > (10,000 units)
> > -THE FIELD OF MERIT [Loas Language] [10,000 units]
> > -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [Sri Lanka Pali Language]
> > (5,000 units)
> > -COMMENTARY ON THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [sri Lanka
> > Language] (5,000 
> > units)
> > -BUDDHISM: ETT LEVANDE BUDSKAP [Sweden Language]
> > (10,000 units)  
> > 10,000   

 
Gaopeng, thanks for your translation efforts and for mentioning this
organisation. Still hoping, you'll tell us a little more about yourself:-))

Sarah


 
5601 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Mike,

--- "m. nease"  wrote: 
> 
> I know what you mean.  It is an oddly liberating
> reflection that there's no one responsible for these
> unwholesome tendencies and that they can't be changed
> overnight (as a rule).  With the added bonus that they
> really are the 'fuel' for insight, it really is
> elating.  
> 
> Looking at it in this way also relieves a lot of the
> pressure to act in any particular way or to go around
> suppressing kilesa in order to look like a 'good
> Buddhist'.

Exactly! And isn't it just clinging to the self and mana (conceit) when we're
concerned about looking like the 'good Buddhist'?

Really appreciating your recent contributions and also Dan's and Howard's
excellent comments and considerations...sorry I can't  contribute more for now.

Sarah

p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in Sri Lanka with K.Sujin and
Nina that some Sri Lankans who looked like 'good Buddhists' said to KS that I
seemed very young and 'mischievous looking' to be so interested in the dhamma.
Her response was that the dhamma was for anyone who could appreciate it!

The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that he really acted and spoke
naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and graces at all.....



 
5602 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:27pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Hi Dan,

just to say you have me in stitches with your 'parodies' of what you hear...

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: -

"Yikes! By cultivating samatha I run the risk 
> of experiencing lots of pleasant sensations and generating lobha. And 
> since samatha is distinct from vipassana, and vipassana is better, 
> It's better not to sit because it's too risky." 

Thanks for all your well-thought out posts....speak soon!
Sarah


 
5603 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books

 
  Hi Dan & Erik,

--- Erik wrote: >
> Dan: "Ven. Narada has a "guide" to the Patthana that I haven't looked 
> at." 
> 
> Now I have something worth tracking down. This sort of text is 
> exactly what I have been hoping to locate.

As Rob said, this Guide is very clear and helpful indeed. You'll find it in the
PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty slim. Hey,
Erik, for a smart computer literate guy like you in New York, you'd only have
to sort out the computer problems of one idiot like myself to pay for it!!
Unlike Rob, i didn't even consider sending my texts in use!!

Just a short quote from the preface,xiii, (to make this post a little more
worthy)  to this book by U Narada on the Patthana (Book of Conditions):

'In essence, Pth. deals with conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed 9sankhata)
states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up
what are said to be animate and inanimate things.  These states arise dependent
on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any
being.  They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the
conditining forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions.  So
Pth. is the teaching of anatta.'

Must run (as Num would say),

Sarah



5604 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New Book

 
  Rob,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote: > Dear Group,
> I've just, with the great help of david, put chapters 1-6 The
> perfections leading to Enlightenment on the web . i'll put the
> remaining chapters on later . it still has some formatting and
> typos to correct.
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm

Good work and thanks for keeping us updated......Recommended!

S.


 
5605 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Darren,

--- Darren Goh  wrote:  
> You were simply presenting a topic for 
> discussion, we all have to make our own interpretation, and come to 
> our own understanding. Ultimately, whether we are Christians or 
> Buddhists, Dhamma still be true, anicca, dukkha and anatta. Hopefully 
> even with a little understanding of Dhamma, a bodhi seed would be 
> planted and florish eventually. 

Some good comments here. As you suggest, it's not the label that counts so much
as the understanding of realites.....Yes, we can discuss any topic with or
without some understanding. T

Good to hear from you and hope to hear more about your interest in dhamma.

Best wishes,

Sarah


 
5606 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Sarah,
I must object here!
""The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that he really
> acted and spoke
> naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and graces at
> all.....""
So I was  clumsy and rough? 
I was trying to act as graceful and as a good as Buddhist as I
could be - how come you weren't fooled?

> > p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in Sri
Lanka
> 
is that pretty young and in Sri lanka or pretty, young and in
Sri lanka?
robert


 
5607 From: wynn   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  Hi,

>
> --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula  wrote: > Dear Group,
> > Can anyone tell me where this is from and under what context?
> >
> > "If, Rahula, Mindfulness of Breathing has been cultivated and
> > regularily practiced, even the last in-breaths and out-breaths will
> > pass consciously,not unconsciously".
>
>

Majjhima Nikaya 62
Maha Rahulovada Sutta
http://www.wwzc.org/translations/mahaRahulovada.htm

".......If mindfulness of breath is practiced continuously, then your last
breath will be in knowing, not in unknowing."

=====

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-ma
ha-rahulovada-e1.htm

Or go to http://www.metta.lk/ and look for Majjhima Nikaya 62

"Rahula, when mindfulness of in breaths and out breaths are developed and
made much in this manner, even the last breath leaves with your knowledge "
*7).

7. When mindfulness of in breaths and out breaths are developed and made
much in this manner, even the last breath leaves with your knowledge.'eva.m
bhaavitaaya kho Raahula aanaapaanasatiyaa eva.m bahulikataaya yepi te
carimakaa assaasapassaasaa te; pi viditaava nirujjhanti no aviditaati.When
mindfulness of in and out breathing is developed in this manner, he becomes
mindful of even his last breath, at death.

 
5608 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:36pm
Subject: The graceful, good Buddhist - Rob

 
  Hi Rob,

Now here I was trying to pay you a compliment.....

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> I must object here!
> ""The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that he really
> > acted and spoke
> > naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and graces at
> > all.....""
> So I was  clumsy and rough? 
> I was trying to act as graceful and as a good as Buddhist as I
> could be - how come you weren't fooled?

Sorry about that :-)))  Let's say you weren't a 'statue'  or acting saint in
spite of all the meditation and attempts to fool us!  You were very, very
lively and vivacious with a strong NZ accent on the Pali words....but no, not
clumsy or rough at all......Bundles of enthusiasm for the dhamma as now.
> 
> > > p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in Sri
> Lanka
> > 
> is that pretty young and in Sri lanka or pretty, young and in
> Sri lanka?
> robert

take your pick!

S.


 
5609 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books

 
  > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear and helpful indeed. You'll 
find it in the
> PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty 
slim. Hey,

Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn 
that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and 
then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I 
have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at 
the PTS edition too. Thanks!


> Erik, for a smart computer literate guy like you in New York, you'd 
only have
> to sort out the computer problems of one idiot like myself to pay 
for it!!
> Unlike Rob, i didn't even consider sending my texts in use!!
> 
> Just a short quote from the preface,xiii, (to make this post a 
little more
> worthy)  to this book by U Narada on the Patthana (Book of 
Conditions):
> 
> 'In essence, Pth. deals with conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed 
9sankhata)
> states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and 
which make up
> what are said to be animate and inanimate things.  These states 
arise dependent
> on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy 
of any
> being.  They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes 
such as the
> conditining forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the 
Conditions.  So
> Pth. is the teaching of anatta.'
> 
> Must run (as Num would say),
> 
> Sarah

 
 
5610 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books

 
  Dan,

I just took this from the PTS website.
,
Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks 
... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, Vol. I, 1979
ISBN 198 X �23.50 Tape ca...
 99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf

my copy is hard copy but also 1979.

It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier to read or
refer to, I find).

(This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of Nettipakarana by
Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0


--- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear
and helpful indeed. You'll 
> find it in the
> > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty 
> slim. Hey,
> 
> Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn 
> that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and 
> then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I 
> have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at 
> the PTS edition too. Thanks!

Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and another
edition..? The one above only has 240 pages.

Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to become a member,
get yr discount and nominated free book for the year.

S.



 
5611 From: Herman 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Hi all,

Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth.

There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is to be 
reborn if it isn't there in the first place?

Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I 
know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, 
pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my 
breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at 
my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. 
But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or 
kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala 
or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is 
Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.

When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a 
single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is.

To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as 
arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both 
exist, thats reality. 

It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, 
whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the 
sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it 
makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with 
8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it 
makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor 
Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life 
there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness.


Herman
--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last week
> I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views that
> deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
> Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
> christains have wrong view in that they believe in the saving
> grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works lead
> to heaven: thus mother theresa.
> It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god
> (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> serious the view is. 
> robert
> 

 
5612 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 9:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Hi, Captain Akusala.
robert
--- Herman wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in
> rebirth.
> 
> There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is to
> be 
> reborn if it isn't there in the first place?
> 
> Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over
> them. I 
> know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know
> pain, 
> pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom
> of my 
> breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the
> sensations at 
> my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas,
> conceit. 
> But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala
> or 
> kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are
> kusala 
> or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know
> it is 
> Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> 
> When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the
> baby not a 
> single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all
> there is.
> 
> To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds
> is as 
> arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They
> both 
> exist, thats reality. 
> 
> It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples
> headstones, 
> whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To
> help the 
> sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala,
> it 
> makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will
> die with 
> 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or
> akusala, it 
> makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind
> nor 
> Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there
> is life 
> there is death, as long as there is being, there is
> nothingness.
> 
> 
> Herman
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last
> week
> > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views
> that
> > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
> > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
> > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the
> saving
> > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works
> lead
> > to heaven: thus mother theresa.
> > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of
> god
> > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> > serious the view is. 
> > robert
> > 



 
5613 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:03pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Herman,

--- Herman wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth.

Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions?  Do you 
*know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there *must* be 
condition for it to arise?   K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth may be 
absolutely provable at one's death.

> Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I 
> know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, 
> pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my 
> breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at 
> my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. 
> But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or 
> kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala 
> or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is 
> Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.

Do you know the different qualities of all those different dhammas as they 
really are?  Do you know the different qualities of the kusala dhammas and 
akusala dhammas?  

> 
> When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a 
> single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is.
> 
> To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as 
> arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both 
> exist, thats reality

I don't think we need to justify if this person is a bad person or a good 
person or if I am a good person or a bad person.   Do you believe that 
akusala bring only bad results to all that are involved and kusala brings 
only good results to all that are involved?  When one has akusala, one only 
brings troubles for oneself and others.  The kusala is the reverse.

> It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, 
> whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the 
> sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it 
> makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with 
> 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it 
> makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor 
> Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life 
> there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness.

The kusala and akusala have different qualties which are provable now.  
You can observe for yourself if akusala "tends to" bring trouble both 
internally and externally or not and if kusala "tends to" bring good results 
both internally and externally.

kom

 
5614 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books [Sarah]

 
  > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks 
> ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, 
Vol. I, 1979
> ISBN 198 X �23.50 Tape ca...
>  99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf
> 
> my copy is hard copy but also 1979.
> 
> It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier 
to read or
> refer to, I find).

O.K. The one I checked out of the library is a guide to pages 13-141 
and is 708 pages. Surprisingly, I couldn't find vol. 1. It would 
probably be better to start with the 200 page guide to the first 
twelve pages...

Dan

 
5615 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:22pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books [Sarah]

 
  Dan,
Volume one is much easier to read. i tried to buy vol 2 years
ago but PTS were out of stock; I got permission from them to
photocopy it if I could find a library that had a copy. In the
event Nina van gorkom brought it from Holland for me on a trip
to bangkok where I photocopied and had it bound. When I finally
got to studying the book I found it so complex: there are charts
everywhere. In book 1 he writes so clearly but I think he
figured anyone who gets to vol 2 must be some sort of genius.
maybe with your ability in mathematics you can figure it all
out- and if you do please rewrite it in a simpler way for
mortals like me, I just know it must be useful.
robert
--- Dan wrote:
> > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks 
> > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U
> Narada, 
> Vol. I, 1979
> > ISBN 198 X �23.50 Tape ca...
> >  99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf
> > 
> > my copy is hard copy but also 1979.
> > 
> > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT
> easier 
> to read or
> > refer to, I find).
> 
> O.K. The one I checked out of the library is a guide to pages
> 13-141 
> and is 708 pages. Surprisingly, I couldn't find vol. 1. It
> would 
> probably be better to start with the 200 page guide to the
> first 
> twelve pages...
> 
> Dan
> 


 
5616 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Sarah,
I'm glad to hear that you are not taking my posts "personally"! I 
don't have any idea whether you are thinking along the lines of the 
parodies (although I suspect you are not), and I won't speculate on 
it. The parodies are just the obvious, conventional interpretation of 
the words I hear. What makes the words have such a distinctly 
different tone from the Buddha's is that Buddha's words have 
important, sensible, helpful meanings on every level from the 
conventional to the ultimate. Of course, we don't aspire to be 
expositors on par with Buddha, but we should also be careful of 
underestimating the depth of his expositions by saying that the 
conventional, obvious, superficial interpretation of his discourses 
is "wrong", that the middling depth interpretations of his discourses 
is "wrong", and that only the ultimate level of interpretation of his 
discourses is "right". It is of course important to talk about and 
try to understand the deeper levels. That understanding is aided by 
transcending the conventional interpretations, but it is hampered by 
dismissing them.

Dan

P.S. Is my writing style of "Theorem: Discussion" offensive? It has a 
haughty feel to it, but it really is just an adaptation of the 
mathematical writing style that I have been trained in. Assert 
something as true and then discuss whether it really is or not.

Would it be more helpful to write in ter}s of "Question: Speculative 
answer"? 


> just to say you have me in stitches with your 'parodies' of what 
you hear...

> --- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: -
> 
> "Yikes! By cultivating samatha I run the risk 
> > of experiencing lots of pleasant sensations and generating lobha. 
And 
> > since samatha is distinct from vipassana, and vipassana is 
better, 
> > It's better not to sit because it's too risky." 
> 
> Thanks for all your well-thought out posts....speak soon!
> Sarah

 
5617 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books [Sarah]

 
  > maybe with your ability in mathematics you can figure it all
> out- and if you do please rewrite it in a simpler way...
It's not happening anytime soon! The conditions just aren't quite 
right...

Dan

 
5618 From: Jonothan Abbott 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Mike

Just a follow-up to my post yesterday, to give a reference to 
something I have come across.  The CMA (translation of the 
Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed. Bh Bodhi) confirms that the term 
anusaya can be used to mean all defilements (kilesa).  It says:  
"Though all defilements are, in a sense, anusayas, the seven 
mentioned here are the most prominent." [Ch. VII, Guide to #9]

In this regard it is much like the term 'defilements' (kilesa) itself, 
which is generally used to refer to any and all akusala 
tendencies but also has a specific meaning as a particular 
group of them (a group of 10).

This may seem puzzling at first (it was to me, anyway), as are the 
many different groups of unwholesome tendencies etc, until you 
consider that all defilements are actually one or other of the 14 
akusala cetasikas.  This means that whether we are talking 
about the anusaya or the hindrances, to take an example, we are 
talking about the same group of realities (ie. the unwholesome 
cetasikas).  As far as these 2 particular groups are concerned, 
there are in fact 4 cetasikas that are common to both (the 
cetasikas of moha, lobha, dosa and vicikiccha).

The different ways of classifying realities help us to see different 
aspects of those realities.  The classification of kilesa as 
anusaya reminds us that as long as the defilements have not 
been eradicated (by panna, at the path stages) they are bound to 
appear sooner or later.  As it explains in CMA--

"The latent dispositions (anusaya) are defilements which "lie 
along with" (anusenti) the mental process to which they belong, 
rising to the surface as obsessions whenever they meet with 
suitable conditions.  The term "latent dispositions" highlights the 
fact that the defilements are liable to arise so long as they have 
not been eradicated by the supramundane paths." [Ch. VII, Guide 
to #9]

The classification of kilesas as the hindrances, on the other 
hand, highlights the fact that akusala that has arisen and 
appeared is a hindrance to the attainment of the jhanas.  
Akusala that has arisen and is manifest is anathema to the 
calmness or tranquillity that is the goal of samatha, since its 
characteristic is agitation (even in the case of subtle lobha).  The 
latent tendencies of these same akusala are not, however, 
regarded as hindrances.

References to the hindrances being suppressed describe a 
situation where those particular akusala cetasikas do not arise 
in a person because of the 'power' of the kusala of that person's  
samatha.  But we need to remember that the development of that 
samatha in and of itself would have done nothing to eradicate 
the person's accumulations of those tendencies that lie latent, 
ie. the latent accumulation of those very same akusala 
tendencies that, when they appear, we call the hindrances.

As discussed earlier, the hindrances are regarded as 
'hindrances' only if and when they have arisen, and by the same 
token if they aren't arising right now they are not regarded as 
'hindrances' at this moment.  For example, at every moment of 
experience of an object through a sense door (moments of 
seeing, hearing etc.) occurring now, being vipaka citta, there is 
no akusala of any kind, and so no 'hindrance'.  Akusala cittas 
may of course arise in the processes following the moment of 
actual sense-door experience; but then so too may kusala, 
including awareness, if the conditions for its arising have been 
developed.

Mike, I have gone on more than was necessary for my follow-up, 
but some of this might be of general interest in the light of recent 
discussions

Jon

--- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> 
wrote:
> Jon,
> 
> That does clarify the point--thanks.
> 
> mike
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> > I hope I have understood your point correctly and
> > that this has cleared it
> > up - if not, please say.
> 
> 
> 

 
5619 From: Num 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:18pm
Subject: Ignorance and wrong view (Moha and ditthi)

 
  Hi Nina, Sarah and all,


I have been reading the book, Cetasika.  At first I plan to finish the book 
first then post a question. But I think, I better clarify something before I 
move on.

About moha and ditthi.  The difference and the quality of these two cetasikas 
are striking. From my general understanding, when there is no wrong view, 
there should be no ignorance but that is not the case.

Let me put throw in the definition of these two cetasikas, so everybody can 
talk on the same ground.

________________________________________________________

The quotes from the book,Cetasikas, which are from Atthasalini:

       Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic of blindness or 
opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or function of 
covering the intrinsic nature of object; the manifestation of being opposed 
to right practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise 
attention, and should be regarded as the root of all defilements. 

       Ditthi (wrong view) : ..it has unwise conviction as characteristic; 
perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to 
see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest 
fault.

___________________________________________________________

The Sotapanna eradicate ditthi ( and/or sakkaya-ditthi) completely, he/she is 
definitely on the ariyan path but still can be suffered from lobha, dosa and 
moha. The sotapanna still cling to birth, status etc.  I remember reading 
that Ven.Ananda cried in sadness after the buddha passed away. 

So wrong view does not always arise with every akusula citta, it coarises 
with only 4 lobha-mula-citta. There is no wrong view with dosa-mula-citta and 
moha-mula-citta, even in doubtful citta, (vicikiccha-sampayutta). So there 
can be an ignorance without a wrong view.  This is interesting.

So my point is even without wrong view, the suffer and ignorance are still 
there. So, I guess panna (understanding) is still a key in penetrating 
through the reality.

Thanks for recommending a book, Sarah.

Comments are appreciated.

Num





 
5620 From: Dan 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:30pm
Subject: Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Robert]

 
  Dear Robert,
> People sometimes ask me politely "how are you?" but really I am 
> fine for the past 10 years or so since realising what the
> objects for vipassana are. 
Great observation. Just remembering (sati) the objects can make lobha 
or dosa tuck tail and run, so irresponsible behavior is less 
tenacious. It becomes easier to drop a "pleasant" but unproductive 
activity in favor of a "less pleasant" but productive activity. Of 
course, such a view is moha-mula at one level, but kusala at a 
shallower level. This is householder kusala, which I spend a lot of 
time thinking about because I do have obligations to a lot of people. 

> it(the hindrance ) lasts, and so one is distracted by it and
> believes it has to be got rid of before insight can arise. 
Sharp insight can't arise as long as there is a steady stream of 
hindered cittas arising and passing away. Little moments of 
attenuated insight can certainly arise in the midst of flows of 
whatever akusala cittas are zooming by, and these moments of kusala 
are indeed precious.

> it has already gone even before one knows it is there - and then
> one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new
> conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance)
> does - clouds seeing these things. 
Yes, it is easy to see how avijja is a hindrance. Thanks for the 
clear explanation. Could you also explain so clearly how the other 
five nivarana are hindrances to insight? The texts clearly state that 
they are.

> In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for
> some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the
> hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are
> also being understood - at different levels. And this leads
> gradually to a turning away from those conditions. 
That's sounds right.

> Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of
> permanance and self and control. 
I don't think about insight so much in terms of ideas. I think of 
insight coming in short but striking flashes that have nothing to do 
with thinking or ideas or concepts at all. It's just "BOOM" and 
everything is crystal clear for an instant. The mind then tries to 
reorient itself to concept and understand what it saw at that instant 
and the moments before that instant. When the insight is stong 
enough, the idea of self is gone---sotapanna.

Trying to force out the idea of self and permanence by reading about 
it, talking about it, thinking about it, pondering it is only 
marginally helpful because the impact of self view and vipallasa on 
our lives is enormously deep, and reading and thinking involve so 
much pannati (even when camouflaged in Abhidhamma language--after all 
Abhidhamma language is still language) that seeing is bound to be 
clouded. Samatha can help uncloud the landscape, but what do we see 
when the landscape is clear? A trained naturalist will see a whole 
lot more than you or I when we look at a forest or a meadow.

Finally, I would not put the idea of "control" in the same category 
as self (atta) and permanence (nicca). The word "control" need not 
connote a sense of self---For example, do think the indriya should be 
called something besides "controlling faculties"? If you think about 
it, this is a fine translation because that is just what the indriya 
are--controlling faculties. The idea of "control" becomes akusala 
when it is rooted in a notion of self, and "out-of-control" is 
certainly not one of the fundamental lakkhana!

> of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense
> pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances
> except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview
> that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying
> to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . 
Yes, they will. But gradually, as understanding deepens, their grip 
becomes weaker and weaker.

> However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop
> up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of
> the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings-
> and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati,
> one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may
> not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in
> this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather
> looking for understanding).
Yup. 

> And strong akusala can arise even if understanding is firm- see
> the examples I gave recently about visakha and anathapindika.
Yup.

> Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the
> present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for
> kusala and that shifts one away from the present:
> 
> ""There can be just unawareness, no wrong practice."
Hmmm... Why can't there be wrong practice? For exapmle, what if one 
thinks that liberation comes about by ridding the world of inferior 
races. They concentrate very hard on trying to eliminate distractions 
in trying to reach final goal. They practice all sorts of methods of 
extermination and gradually the understanding of efficient 
extermination becomes more and more refined. This is unawareness to 
be sure, but it is also wrong practice. Of course the more subtle 
manifestations of wrong practice are the ones that we deal with more 
often in everyday living.

> "But if one
> thinks that one should rather have objects other than the
> present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will
> never study the object which appears now."
This is true. But in developing samatha, objects aren't necessarily 
chosen because the objects appear to be more wholesome. They are 
chosen because concentration on them is effective at helping 
condition samadhi.

> "And how can one know
> their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them?
> So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is
> more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire
> can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's
> desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no
> understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One
> has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha
> which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is
> lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one
> does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from
> developing right understanding of the present object."
This is well put. But does it say that it is not helpful to sit 
quietly in a corner, legs crossed, eyes closed, striving to 
concentrate on the sensation of the breath striking the rims of the 
nostrils as it passes in and out of the body with each breath? Not at 
all. What it says is that when there is no awareness of reality as it 
is, there is no development of right understanding. These are not the 
same at all.

> When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an
> object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). 
Being encouraged by hearing the true Dhamma is a sign of wisdom. 

> It took alot
> of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my
> life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid
> confrontations and many other things (and still could never get
> things quite right.) 
This does sound stressful indeed. Dhamma can certainly eradicate the 
clinging to such an approach.

> I still like to get away to quiet places
> and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there
> is not the pressure of thinking I MUST be in such situations. It
> seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. 
Right. One thing to think about, though, is what "relaxed" means. It 
has a number of different meanings, many of them akusala (e.g. lobha 
for relinquishing responsibilties, clinging to the dull pleasure of 
being lazy, etc.)

Dan

 
5621 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  >  Sukin wrote: 'Keen interest' maybe; but  'ability
to listen very carefully', I don't know. I  find that 
my mind is perpetually clouded, something 
>  like thick rain clouds across the  sky.  I feel
like there is only moha, moha, moha everywhere..." 

Dear Sukin,

I used to think of moha in exactly the same way--like
thick rain clouds across the sky.  Now I think of it
as an ocean covering the entire world, with lots of
other akusala and little bits of kusala bobbing about
in it.  Of course all this is just a lot of thinking.

I think Sarah's right in saying that recognizing how
many moments there are of moha  is a very good sign. 
How many people in the world really understand this? 
None of us could really understand this without having
heard the Dhamma and understood it to some degree. 
(By the way I've always held your posts in the highest
esteem and have missed them).

As Sarah has also pointed out, even people with some
understanding often pay little attention to moha and
lobha because they aren't painful--they would rather
get rid of dosa because it always comes with an
unpleasant feeling.  In my case, for example, I've
spent a huge amount of my time and effort cultivating
pleasant mental states, without a lot of attention to
whether they were kusala or akusala.  As Robert has
often and kindly pointed out, the danger of this is
that it's easy to form this habit (almost like a drug
addiction) and even worse, mistake it all for kusala
and sammaaditthi.  So you can run around all beatific
and loving and kind and pure and
more-compassionate-than-thou, playing the perfect Good
Buddhist while getting further and further from the
truth (and more and more conceited)...

Personally I don't like dejection and would try to get
rid of it (though I'm NOT recommending this as good
practice!)  Still the subject reminded me of something
I'd read a long time ago that I thought might fit in
here:

"Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be
pursued & not to be pursued. Grief is of two sorts: to
be pursued & not to be pursued. Equanimity is of two
sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. 

"'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be
pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in
reference to what was it said? When one knows of a
feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful
mental qualities increase, and skillful mental
qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be
pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I
pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline,
and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of
joy is to be pursued. And this sort of joy may be
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free
of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the
latter is the more refined. 'Joy is of two sorts, I
tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be
pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this
was it said. 

"'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued &
not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference
to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of
grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental
qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities
decline,' that sort of grief is not to be pursued.
When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue
this grief, unskillful mental qualities decline, and
skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of
grief is to be pursued. And this sort of grief may be
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free
of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the
latter is the more refined. 'Grief is of two sorts, I
tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was
it said. And in reference to this was it said. 

"'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be
pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in
reference to what was it said? When one knows of a
feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity,
unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful
mental qualities decline,' that sort of equanimity is
not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of
equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful
mental qualities decline, and skillful mental
qualities increase,' that sort of equanimity is to be
pursued. And this sort of equanimity may be
accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free
of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the
latter is the more refined. 'Equanimity is of two
sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.'
Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it
said. 

Digha Nikaya 21
Sakka-pa�ha Sutta
Sakka's Questions

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/21-sakkapanha-e2-part.htm
 

>  Sukin said "and sometimes I feel like there is
perpetual anger." 

I know that feeling well.  Of course as Sarah pointed
out, it isn't perpetual at all.  Its continuity, even
for a moment, is an illusion.  This can be 'seen' and
understood--at which moment there is no anger. 
'Seeing' its impersonality or unsatisfactoriness
clearly and understanding it--again at that moment, no
anger.

> Sukin said "I  know that I am not taking into
consideration, moments when there are more kusala
cittas. But when I come across posts of
> different members on this and another list, by
comparision I feel not only stupid, but also
'defiled'."

Sarah's right of course that this is just conceit, not
to mention self-view.  Still, sure--I IS stupid, and
defiled--it's the nature of  'I', isn't it?  (Though
when I say 'stupid' I know it's always the dosa
talking).

> Sukin said "Therefore much of the time I don't feel
that I  have anything useful to add to the
discussions, though I do interpret what I read
> and tell myself that I understand and that I am able
to keep up with the group. At other times I doubt the
level of understanding but do not 
> know exactly where I'm at."

Understanding is one thing and doubt is another.  Both
arise and subside in varying degrees of strength,
according to conditions and sometimes it seems like
there's a 'Sukin' there.  I know you're well aware
that there isn't, but forget from time to time--I
certainly do.

Hang in there Sukin--and beware the nivaranas!

mike


 
5622 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha: was Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott 
wrote:

> Exactly! And isn't it just clinging to the self and
> mana (conceit) when we're
> concerned about looking like the 'good Buddhist'?

Yep.

> p.s. Just remembered when I was pretty young and in
> Sri Lanka with K.Sujin and
> Nina that some Sri Lankans who looked like 'good
> Buddhists' said to KS that I
> seemed very young and 'mischievous looking' to be so
> interested in the dhamma.
> Her response was that the dhamma was for anyone who
> could appreciate it!

Hmm, pretty, young and mischievous--lucky I wasn't
there (I probably wouldn't have been a very Good
Buddhist...)

> The first time I met Rob too, I liked the way that
> he really acted and spoke
> naturally without any 'good Buddhist' airs and
> graces at all.....

That's so refreshing, and one of the qualities that
make Robert's posts so compelling.

mike


 
5623 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 2:18am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dear Jon,

Thanks again--this is all perfectly clear and just as
I understood it.  It really doesn't seem puzzling at
all to me.  The anusaya are the keystone to what
understanding I have of kamma and rebirth.  I really
should learn the details better.  I am learning them
(thanks to you all) but at about the rate of
nail-growth.

mike

p.s. Has anyone here every specifically addressed the
role of kamma and rebirth with regard to momentary
death?

--- Jon wrote:

> Mike
> 
> Just a follow-up to my post yesterday, to give a
> reference to 
> something I have come across.  The CMA (translation
> of the 
> Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed. Bh Bodhi) confirms that
> the term 
> anusaya can be used to mean all defilements
> (kilesa).  It says:  
> "Though all defilements are, in a sense, anusayas,
> the seven 
> mentioned here are the most prominent." [Ch. VII,
> Guide to #9]
> 
> In this regard it is much like the term
> 'defilements' (kilesa) itself, 
> which is generally used to refer to any and all
> akusala 
> tendencies but also has a specific meaning as a
> particular 
> group of them (a group of 10).
> 
> This may seem puzzling at first (it was to me,
> anyway), as are the 
> many different groups of unwholesome tendencies etc,
> until you 
> consider that all defilements are actually one or
> other of the 14 
> akusala cetasikas.  This means that whether we are
> talking 
> about the anusaya or the hindrances, to take an
> example, we are 
> talking about the same group of realities (ie. the
> unwholesome 
> cetasikas).  As far as these 2 particular groups are
> concerned, 
> there are in fact 4 cetasikas that are common to
> both (the 
> cetasikas of moha, lobha, dosa and vicikiccha).
> 
> The different ways of classifying realities help us
> to see different 
> aspects of those realities.  The classification of
> kilesa as 
> anusaya reminds us that as long as the defilements
> have not 
> been eradicated (by panna, at the path stages) they
> are bound to 
> appear sooner or later.  As it explains in CMA--
> 
> "The latent dispositions (anusaya) are defilements
> which "lie 
> along with" (anusenti) the mental process to which
> they belong, 
> rising to the surface as obsessions whenever they
> meet with 
> suitable conditions.  The term "latent dispositions"
> highlights the 
> fact that the defilements are liable to arise so
> long as they have 
> not been eradicated by the supramundane paths." [Ch.
> VII, Guide 
> to #9]
> 
> The classification of kilesas as the hindrances, on
> the other 
> hand, highlights the fact that akusala that has
> arisen and 
> appeared is a hindrance to the attainment of the
> jhanas.  
> Akusala that has arisen and is manifest is anathema
> to the 
> calmness or tranquillity that is the goal of
> samatha, since its 
> characteristic is agitation (even in the case of
> subtle lobha).  The 
> latent tendencies of these same akusala are not,
> however, 
> regarded as hindrances.
> 
> References to the hindrances being suppressed
> describe a 
> situation where those particular akusala cetasikas
> do not arise 
> in a person because of the 'power' of the kusala of
> that person's  
> samatha.  But we need to remember that the
> development of that 
> samatha in and of itself would have done nothing to
> eradicate 
> the person's accumulations of those tendencies that
> lie latent, 
> ie. the latent accumulation of those very same
> akusala 
> tendencies that, when they appear, we call the
> hindrances.
> 
> As discussed earlier, the hindrances are regarded as
> 
> 'hindrances' only if and when they have arisen, and
> by the same 
> token if they aren't arising right now they are not
> regarded as 
> 'hindrances' at this moment.  For example, at every
> moment of 
> experience of an object through a sense door
> (moments of 
> seeing, hearing etc.) occurring now, being vipaka
> citta, there is 
> no akusala of any kind, and so no 'hindrance'. 
> Akusala cittas 
> may of course arise in the processes following the
> moment of 
> actual sense-door experience; but then so too may
> kusala, 
> including awareness, if the conditions for its
> arising have been 
> developed.
> 
> Mike, I have gone on more than was necessary for my
> follow-up, 
> but some of this might be of general interest in the
> light of recent 
> discussions
> 
> Jon
> 
> --- "m. nease"
> <"m. nease"> 
> wrote:
> > Jon,
> > 
> > That does clarify the point--thanks.
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > 
> > > I hope I have understood your point correctly
> and
> > > that this has cleared it
> > > up - if not, please say.
> > 



 
5624 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 2:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ignorance and wrong view (Moha and ditthi)

 
  Dear Num,

Not sure what your question is--what you've said is
just as I see it (for what THAT'S worth).

I've been reading Cetasikas too.  I know it will take
years (if I live that long) to commit the important
details there to memory.  Meanwhile it's good to
continue to hear about them.

mike

--- Num wrote:
> Hi Nina, Sarah and all,
> 
> 
> I have been reading the book, Cetasika.  At first I
> plan to finish the book 
> first then post a question. But I think, I better
> clarify something before I 
> move on.
> 
> About moha and ditthi.  The difference and the
> quality of these two cetasikas 
> are striking. From my general understanding, when
> there is no wrong view, 
> there should be no ignorance but that is not the
> case.
> 
> Let me put throw in the definition of these two
> cetasikas, so everybody can 
> talk on the same ground.
> 
>
________________________________________________________
> 
> The quotes from the book,Cetasikas, which are from
> Atthasalini:
> 
>        Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic
> of blindness or 
> opposition to knowledge; the essence of
> non-penetration, or function of 
> covering the intrinsic nature of object; the
> manifestation of being opposed 
> to right practice or causing blindness; the
> proximate cause of unwise 
> attention, and should be regarded as the root of all
> defilements. 
> 
>        Ditthi (wrong view) : ..it has unwise
> conviction as characteristic; 
> perversion as function; wrong conviction as
> manifestation; the desire not to 
> see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be
> regarded as the highest 
> fault.
> 
>
___________________________________________________________
> 
> The Sotapanna eradicate ditthi ( and/or
> sakkaya-ditthi) completely, he/she is 
> definitely on the ariyan path but still can be
> suffered from lobha, dosa and 
> moha. The sotapanna still cling to birth, status
> etc.  I remember reading 
> that Ven.Ananda cried in sadness after the buddha
> passed away. 
> 
> So wrong view does not always arise with every
> akusula citta, it coarises 
> with only 4 lobha-mula-citta. There is no wrong view
> with dosa-mula-citta and 
> moha-mula-citta, even in doubtful citta,
> (vicikiccha-sampayutta). So there 
> can be an ignorance without a wrong view.  This is
> interesting.
> 
> So my point is even without wrong view, the suffer
> and ignorance are still 
> there. So, I guess panna (understanding) is still a
> key in penetrating 
> through the reality.
> 
> Thanks for recommending a book, Sarah.
> 
> Comments are appreciated.
> 
> Num 


 
5625 From: Gaopeng 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 3:51am
Subject: Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation

 
  Dear Sarah and the rest,

    Thanks for responding to my very previous post, :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5600

    As I set my yahoogroup mode to no mail, so I didn't really follow 
any thread of any groups right now into my personal email box and I 
also rarely read the post online now.

    I am 28 years male from Malaysia, a very beginner in Buddhism, 
not secterian but inclining theravada, plus some mahayana :-), 
melting pot . 

    As for the Corporate Body of The Buddha Education, the founder is 
venarable JingKong, a Pureland practioner monk in Taiwan. As far as I 
know, it's a non-profitable charity organisation which receiving 
donation from worldwide, then to print the dhamma books for free 
distribution worldwide. A glance to the dhamma catalog, no doubt there 
is mostly mahayana and chinese dhamma books , but this is not 
secterial actually, from time to time, the theravada and vajrayana 
dhamma books also will be printed out for free distribution.

    I only have a few encounterments with them, merely two or three 
times through requesting one or two dhamma books through emails. All i 
know is, if you really want a dhamma book, just write an email to 
them, read the above previous letter with details:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5600

    You only need to send ONE copy of email to ONE particular 
requesting-email address and don't cross-posting to multiple email, as 
this may lead to multiple copy requesting later, as may be different 
people will handle different request. As the Corporate Body of the 
Buddha Education is a charity organisation, they also lack of man 
power in work, so MOST of the time there WON'T have any reply [which 
saying that your request has been received] from them after you sent 
your request. Unless there is problem with your request, which most of 
the time won't have. Then, you just wait at home, the requesting 
dhamma books will arrive depends on the amount or the size of the 
books, if the parcel of the books is small in size, then may be they 
will send through air mail, which you will receive in one or two weeks 
time , depends your destiny. If the parcel is too heavy , then may be 
they will send through ship, it will need 1 to 2 months to reach it's 
destiny. I only speak this out through  few times encounterment with 
them, this may be wrong. That's it. When requesting book, please 
clearly state the title of the book, the amount [ please only do ask 
the neccesary amount ], your FULL name, and your mailling address 
clearly with postcode and country name.

   I just received  my Visuddhimagga [hard-cover] from them [ need 
more than 5 weeks time to receive], normally the books printed in 
Taiwan will have high quality.

   As for Erik, may be you could request a copy of the Visuddhimagga , 
The Path of Purification translated by Bhikku Nanamoli [original work 
by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa]. I am a very beginner in Buddhism, I 
don't know what the other books you mentioned about, you could try to 
ask them through email  [overseas@ 
budaedu.org.tw ], they are very pleased to send them over to you if 
they have a copy for free distribution. As for me, the Visuddhimaga is 
heavy enough to take time to digest and also to concentrate and to 
excel , :-). 

   The english version for the Corporate Body of The Buddha Education 
website will be out soon, may be in August or September.
http://www.budaedu.org.tw/
http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign

   Till then, bye.

   May you be well and happy !

   gaopeng

 
5626 From: Herman 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:31am
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Kom,

Thank you for your reply. I have interspersed your comments with some 
more comments.

--- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Herman,
> 
> --- Herman wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth.
> 
> Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions?  
Do you 
> *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there 
*must* be 
> condition for it to arise?   K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth 
may be 
> absolutely provable at one's death.

Yes, I believe in conditions, and the results of those conditions, 
and that all dhammas arise because of conditions. I also believe the 
conditions are unknowable, meaning neither causes or results can be 
fully known. Play a game of chess, and try and predict what the board 
will look like after one, two, three moves. Or try and determine the 
moves that caused the current state of the board. Impossible. With 
such a simple state of affairs , 2 players with sixteen or fewer 
pieces each you need to cover billions of permutations. How much more 
complex is this present reality, with infinite causes which are the 
result of infinite causes which are the result of infinite causes.

> 
> > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over 
them. I 
> > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know 
pain, 
> > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of 
my 
> > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations 
at 
> > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, 
conceit. 
> > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or 
> > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are 
kusala 
> > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it 
is 
> > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> 
> Do you know the different qualities of all those different dhammas 
as they 
> really are?  Do you know the different qualities of the kusala 
dhammas and 
> akusala dhammas?  

I do not know whether I know all the qualities. How will I know when 
I do? I know some qualities, I think, but I do not know whether I am 
deluded about them, ignorant or whatever. I know what other people 
say is kusala or akusala, but this isn't self-evident. The reality I 
am aware of is "x says this is kusala" not "x is kusala". When there 
is anger, there are conditions for anger. To then label that as 
akusala adds nothing except inhibition and the feeling that this 
anger is not acceptable, that it should not be, while the reality is 
that it just is. If you are aware of anger then you are aware of 
anger.



> 
> > 
> > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby 
not a 
> > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there 
is.
> > 
> > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is 
as 
> > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both 
> > exist, thats reality
> 
> I don't think we need to justify if this person is a bad person or 
a good 
> person or if I am a good person or a bad person.   Do you believe 
that 
> akusala bring only bad results to all that are involved and kusala 
brings 
> only good results to all that are involved?  When one has akusala, 
one only 
> brings troubles for oneself and others.  The kusala is the reverse.
> 

Because of the complexity of infinite causes, how can I know that 
this thought caused that result, this action caused that feeling? I 
really do not have the ability to make those discernments. I know "x 
says this is good, x says this is bad" I do not know "this is good, 
that is bad". Good and bad and in between are not absolutes, they are 
relative to a goal, a purpose. What is good for one person in one 
situation is bad for another. Over time I can start to believe that 
by smiling a lot I am influencing the course of the universe in a 
positive way. But am I ? And is that my goal?


> > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, 
> > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help 
the 
> > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it 
> > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die 
with 
> > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, 
it 
> > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind 
nor 
> > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is 
life 
> > there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness.
> 
> The kusala and akusala have different qualties which are provable 
now.  
> You can observe for yourself if akusala "tends to" bring trouble 
both 
> internally and externally or not and if kusala "tends to" bring 
good results 
> both internally and externally.

Kusala and akusala are tied to whatever goal is trying to be 
achieved. This may be trying to feel good or avoiding feeling bad, or 
escaping from Samsara or realising Nibbana or getting of the wheel of 
rebirths or whatever. How is it that we set out on a journey when we 
wouldn't recognise the destination if we tripped over it? And how is 
it that we "know" exactly what tools , what means , will get us to 
this destination?

This is not knowledge, this is faith. 


Kind regards


Herman



 
5627 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 10:18am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Kom,

	Rebirth proveable at one's death.... how in a more layman's way ? 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kom Tukovinit 
> Sent:	Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:04 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion
> 
> Dear Herman,
> 
> --- Herman wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in rebirth.
> 
> Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions?  Do you 
> *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there *must*
> be 
> condition for it to arise?   K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth may be 
> absolutely provable at one's death.
> 
> > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over them. I 
> > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know pain, 
> > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of my 
> > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations at 
> > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, conceit. 
> > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or 
> > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are kusala 
> > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it is 
> > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> 
> Do you know the different qualities of all those different dhammas as they
> 
> really are?  Do you know the different qualities of the kusala dhammas and
> 
> akusala dhammas?  
> 
> > 
> > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the baby not a 
> > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all there is.
> > 
> > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds is as 
> > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They both 
> > exist, thats reality
> 
> I don't think we need to justify if this person is a bad person or a good 
> person or if I am a good person or a bad person.   Do you believe that 
> akusala bring only bad results to all that are involved and kusala brings 
> only good results to all that are involved?  When one has akusala, one
> only 
> brings troubles for oneself and others.  The kusala is the reverse.
> 
> > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples headstones, 
> > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To help the 
> > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala, it 
> > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will die with 
> > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or akusala, it 
> > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind nor 
> > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there is life 
> > there is death, as long as there is being, there is nothingness.
> 
> The kusala and akusala have different qualties which are provable now.  
> You can observe for yourself if akusala "tends to" bring trouble both 
> internally and externally or not and if kusala "tends to" bring good
> results 
> both internally and externally.
> 
> kom


 
5628 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 11:21am
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  The story has it that if you are born as an opapatika (born whole, with all 
your parts), you could remember what happens in the last life.  This 
*may* explain why ghosts and devas in the suttas remember their last 
lives.

Unless you are again reborn as human or animals, then you are most likely 
will be reborn whole.  Somehow, I am led to believe that being reborn as a 
human in the next life is somewhat unlikely for most people.  

Beyond this absolute provability, you can only give explanations 
that "make sense" or are "logical".  Understandably, this doesn't work for 
everybody.

kom

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Dear Kom,
> 
> 	Rebirth proveable at one's death.... how in a more layman's 
way ? 
>

 
5629 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Kom,

born whole .. what do you mean... with all parts.... are human considered
not with all parts.... since you mentioned it, the probability of reborn a
human seems distant... like cherishing the human existence and ractise
Dhamma and the sort.... seems to be pointing that we ain't gonna be humans
again unless we have huge good accumulations....

what do you think ?

Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kom Tukovinit 
> Sent:	Friday, June 15, 2001 11:21 AM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion
> 
> The story has it that if you are born as an opapatika (born whole, with
> all 
> your parts), you could remember what happens in the last life.  This 
> *may* explain why ghosts and devas in the suttas remember their last 
> lives.
> 
> Unless you are again reborn as human or animals, then you are most likely 
> will be reborn whole.  Somehow, I am led to believe that being reborn as a
> 
> human in the next life is somewhat unlikely for most people.  
> 
> Beyond this absolute provability, you can only give explanations 
> that "make sense" or are "logical".  Understandably, this doesn't work for
> 
> everybody.
> 
> kom
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > Dear Kom,
> > 
> > 	Rebirth proveable at one's death.... how in a more layman's 
> way ? 
> > 


 
5630 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 4:05pm
Subject: Dan's 'Theorem:Discussion' style

 
  Dear Dan,

Sorry, but  'real' chat will have to wait til next week. Just want to reply
briefly to this:
--- Dan wrote: 

> P.S. Is my writing style of "Theorem: Discussion" offensive? It has a 
> haughty feel to it, but it really is just an adaptation of the 
> mathematical writing style that I have been trained in. Assert 
> something as true and then discuss whether it really is or not.
> 
> Would it be more helpful to write in terms of "Question: Speculative 
> answer"? 

I would think that we're all very used to your style (I hadn't associated it
with a mathematical style actually ;-)) and I'm quite sure it never causes
offence. Strong, direct, assertive, yes,  but it's always polite (and
challenging;-). 

Your explanation is interesting. Others may have different ideas, but I would
suggest you write in whatever style you're comfortable with and which comes
naturally. It would be boring if we all had the same style. Jon and I always
appreciate your posts.

Sarah

p.s. thanks, also, for keeping the subject headings updated - you win the prize
for this!

 



 
5631 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:53pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Mindfulness of Breathing

 
  To Mike, Wynn.
Thankyou Wynn for your links, I appreciate the difference in the translation.
Thankyou Mike for the very encouraging post.
Thanks everyone for supplying such good reading everyday.
May all grow in wisdom.

Sukin.

"m. nease" wrote:

> >  Sukin wrote: 'Keen interest' maybe; but  'ability
> to listen very carefully', I don't know. I  find that
> my mind is perpetually clouded, something
> >  like thick rain clouds across the  sky.  I feel
> like there is only moha, moha, moha everywhere..."
>
> Dear Sukin,
>
> I used to think of moha in exactly the same way--like
> thick rain clouds across the sky.  Now I think of it
> as an ocean covering the entire world, with lots of
> other akusala and little bits of kusala bobbing about
> in it.  Of course all this is just a lot of thinking.
>
> I think Sarah's right in saying that recognizing how
> many moments there are of moha  is a very good sign.
> How many people in the world really understand this?
> None of us could really understand this without having
> heard the Dhamma and understood it to some degree.
> (By the way I've always held your posts in the highest
> esteem and have missed them).
>
> As Sarah has also pointed out, even people with some
> understanding often pay little attention to moha and
> lobha because they aren't painful--they would rather
> get rid of dosa because it always comes with an
> unpleasant feeling.  In my case, for example, I've
> spent a huge amount of my time and effort cultivating
> pleasant mental states, without a lot of attention to
> whether they were kusala or akusala.  As Robert has
> often and kindly pointed out, the danger of this is
> that it's easy to form this habit (almost like a drug
> addiction) and even worse, mistake it all for kusala
> and sammaaditthi.  So you can run around all beatific
> and loving and kind and pure and
> more-compassionate-than-thou, playing the perfect Good
> Buddhist while getting further and further from the
> truth (and more and more conceited)...
>
> Personally I don't like dejection and would try to get
> rid of it (though I'm NOT recommending this as good
> practice!)  Still the subject reminded me of something
> I'd read a long time ago that I thought might fit in
> here:
>
> "Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be
> pursued & not to be pursued. Grief is of two sorts: to
> be pursued & not to be pursued. Equanimity is of two
> sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued.
>
> "'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be
> pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in
> reference to what was it said? When one knows of a
> feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful
> mental qualities increase, and skillful mental
> qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be
> pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I
> pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline,
> and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of
> joy is to be pursued. And this sort of joy may be
> accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free
> of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the
> latter is the more refined. 'Joy is of two sorts, I
> tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be
> pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this
> was it said.
>
> "'Grief is of two sorts, I tell you: to be pursued &
> not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference
> to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of
> grief, 'As I pursue this grief, unskillful mental
> qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities
> decline,' that sort of grief is not to be pursued.
> When one knows of a feeling of grief, 'As I pursue
> this grief, unskillful mental qualities decline, and
> skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of
> grief is to be pursued. And this sort of grief may be
> accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free
> of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the
> latter is the more refined. 'Grief is of two sorts, I
> tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was
> it said. And in reference to this was it said.
>
> "'Equanimity is of two sorts, I tell you: to be
> pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in
> reference to what was it said? When one knows of a
> feeling of equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity,
> unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful
> mental qualities decline,' that sort of equanimity is
> not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of
> equanimity, 'As I pursue this equanimity, unskillful
> mental qualities decline, and skillful mental
> qualities increase,' that sort of equanimity is to be
> pursued. And this sort of equanimity may be
> accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free
> of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the
> latter is the more refined. 'Equanimity is of two
> sorts, I tell you: to be pursued & not to be pursued.'
> Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it
> said.
>
> Digha Nikaya 21
> Sakka-pa�ha Sutta
> Sakka's Questions
>
> http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/21-sakkapanha-e2-part.htm
>
>
> >  Sukin said "and sometimes I feel like there is
> perpetual anger."
>
> I know that feeling well.  Of course as Sarah pointed
> out, it isn't perpetual at all.  Its continuity, even
> for a moment, is an illusion.  This can be 'seen' and
> understood--at which moment there is no anger.
> 'Seeing' its impersonality or unsatisfactoriness
> clearly and understanding it--again at that moment, no
> anger.
>
> > Sukin said "I  know that I am not taking into
> consideration, moments when there are more kusala
> cittas. But when I come across posts of
> > different members on this and another list, by
> comparision I feel not only stupid, but also
> 'defiled'."
>
> Sarah's right of course that this is just conceit, not
> to mention self-view.  Still, sure--I IS stupid, and
> defiled--it's the nature of  'I', isn't it?  (Though
> when I say 'stupid' I know it's always the dosa
> talking).
>
> > Sukin said "Therefore much of the time I don't feel
> that I  have anything useful to add to the
> discussions, though I do interpret what I read
> > and tell myself that I understand and that I am able
> to keep up with the group. At other times I doubt the
> level of understanding but do not
> > know exactly where I'm at."
>
> Understanding is one thing and doubt is another.  Both
> arise and subside in varying degrees of strength,
> according to conditions and sometimes it seems like
> there's a 'Sukin' there.  I know you're well aware
> that there isn't, but forget from time to time--I
> certainly do.
>
> Hang in there Sukin--and beware the nivaranas!
>
> mike

 
5632 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books

 
  Narada also wrote guide to patthana vol.2 but not published by PTS(pts have vol 1 only and two patthana text tran by him).I have the vol 2 printed in Myanmar which have tran. from Mulatika and anutika with charts,it is thicker than vol.1  which is just a beginner book.




-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:03:32 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books


> Dan,
> 
> I just took this from the PTS website.
> ,
> Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks 
> ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, Vol. I, 1979
> ISBN 198 X �23.50 Tape ca...
>  99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf
> 
> my copy is hard copy but also 1979.
> 
> It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT easier to read or
> refer to, I find).
> 
> (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of Nettipakarana by
> Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0
> 
> 
> --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear
> and helpful indeed. You'll 
> > find it in the
> > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's pretty 
> > slim. Hey,
> > 
> > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I learn 
> > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, and 
> > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the one I 
> > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to look at 
> > the PTS edition too. Thanks!
> 
> Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and another
> edition..? The one above only has 240 pages.
> 
> Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to become a member,
> get yr discount and nominated free book for the year.
> 
> S.


 
5633 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:00pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books

 
  Thanks for the explanation, Teng Kee. Clearly, I'm not quite ready 
for vol. 2 (probably not vol. 1 yet either, but since you 
say "beginner" book, there may be hope!). But vol. 2 still seems much 
less cryptic than Patthana itself.

Dan

> Narada also wrote guide to patthana vol.2 but not published by PTS
(pts have vol 1 only and two patthana text tran by him).I have the 
vol 2 printed in Myanmar which have tran. from Mulatika and anutika 
with charts,it is thicker than vol.1  which is just a beginner book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah Procter Abbott
> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:03:32 +0800 (CST)
> Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books
> 
> 
> > Dan,
> > 
> > I just took this from the PTS website.
> > ,
> > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks 
> > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, 
Vol. I, 1979
> > ISBN 198 X �23.50 Tape ca...
> >  99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf
> > 
> > my copy is hard copy but also 1979.
> > 
> > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT 
easier to read or
> > refer to, I find).
> > 
> > (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of 
Nettipakarana by
> > Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0
> > 
> > 
> > --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear
> > and helpful indeed. You'll 
> > > find it in the
> > > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's 
pretty 
> > > slim. Hey,
> > > 
> > > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I 
learn 
> > > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, 
and 
> > > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the 
one I 
> > > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to 
look at 
> > > the PTS edition too. Thanks!
> > 
> > Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and 
another
> > edition..? The one above only has 240 pages.
> > 
> > Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to 
become a member,
> > get yr discount and nominated free book for the year.
> > 
> > S.
> > 

 
5634 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Dan's 'Theorem:Discussion' style

 
  Thanks for your kind and encouraging words, Sarah. 

Dan

P.S. I think you must mean someone else in your "p.s." 

> I would think that we're all very used to your style (I hadn't 
associated it
> with a mathematical style actually ;-)) and I'm quite sure it never 
causes
> offence. Strong, direct, assertive, yes,  but it's always polite 
(and
> challenging;-). 
> 
> Your explanation is interesting. Others may have different ideas, 
but I would
> suggest you write in whatever style you're comfortable with and 
which comes
> naturally. It would be boring if we all had the same style. Jon and 
I always
> appreciate your posts.
> 
> Sarah
> 
> p.s. thanks, also, for keeping the subject headings updated - you 
win the prize
> for this!
> 

 
5635 From: robert 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:24pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear dan,
Some good points here. Rather than discuss them I will just add that 
today I listened to "Amazing Grace". We can listen and interpret it 
in our own way, in ways that accord with Dhamma, or ways that don't. 
Whichever way it is a moving song.
robert 


Dan wrote:
> > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god
> > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> > serious the view is. 
> I think about it just the opposite way! The concept of "grace of 
God" 
> or "salvation by faith" is a crude version of anatta. This is sure 
to 
> raise a lot of hackles, but try to understand my point before 
letting 
> it condition too much dosa! Christian faith is all about putting 
the 
> ego aside and letting actions be guided by the Holy Spirit. Any 
> action -- even one that superficially looks very good -- that is 
> guided by the personal will is at best non-effectual in salvation. 
> Instead, Christian faith demands that the ego be put aside and 
faith 
> in God be developed. If faith is strong enough, good works are done 
> incessantly, cheerfully and without any nudging from the ego or the 
> will or the atta. The view is not "anatta" per se but only that any 
> activity governed by atta rather than God is necessarily akusala. 
> What is "God"? Well, I'd say that it is a crutch that Christians 
use 
> for understanding anatta. It can be reasonably effective in 
> attenuating people's clinging to self, and as far as that goes it 
is 
> helpful. Ultimately, though, liberation does require dropping that 
> crutch. 
> 
> As for doing good works, I'm sure both Mother Theresa and Buddha 
> would disagree that "good works" per se is the vehicle for 
salvation 
> or enlightenment. Mother Theresa would say that faith is key: If 
> faith is strong, the good works will naturally follow 
> without "effort" and without direction from the will. Buddha would 
> say that wisdom is key: If wisdom is strong, the good works will 
> naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from any 
> atta. Neither puts much stock in external good works. Both put much 
> stock in purification of the mind. This is a very important point. 
> 
> Buddha did not have any prescription: "Do this and you will move 
> toward enlightenment." He did not say: "Sit on a cushion and direct 
> attention to the sensation of the breath on the area above the 
upper 
> lip as that breath enters and leaves the nose. If you do so, you 
will 
> be enlightened." Instead, he talked a lot about wisdom and gave 
lots 
> of example of wise people doing this and lots of "good works", but 
it 
> is the wisdom and not the work that is important. Bramajala sutta 
has 
> a wonderful discussion of this point. Buddha talks about how 
> superficial people praise him for his good works, but those who 
have 
> a deeper understanding recognize that the good works flow from his 
> wisdom rather than the other way around, and that it is his wisdom 
> that is most deserving of praise.
> 
> "The Bondage of the Will" is a wonderful book that Martin Luther 
> wrote about the Christian conception that any activity directed by 
> the will is not only ineffectual for attaining salvation, it is 
> downright sinful because it demonstrates a lack of faith in God---
> shades of "sakaya ditthi is akusala" and "liberation by insight, 
not 
> by ritual meditation or chanting or reading". 
> 
> Dan

 
5636 From: Jonothan Abbott 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 10:09pm
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dan

Enjoyed this post of yours with the story about your meditation 
teacher in Thailand.  I had not realised (or had forgotten, if you 
have mentioned it before) that you have a Thailand connection.  
Do tell us more about it sometime.

I agree with you about the need for conventional effort in life, and 
the value of conventional effort of the kusala kind.  I do not 
suggest that the Buddha wished to discourage anyone from 
conventional effort of the kusala kind.  But when it comes to 
bhavana (mental development), and I include here samatha as 
well as vipassana, I believe the suttas are not to be read in 
terms of convectional effort, ie, that that is not the meaning with 
which they were delivered.

If you want a reason as to why he did not spell things our more, 
my answer would be that he was talking to some very highly 
developed individuals and the message was appropriate for the 
particular listeners.  The spelling out is found in the 
commentaries and especially in the abhidhamma.

Jon

--- Dan wrote:
> Dear Jon,
> Again, we are not so far apart. You wrote:
> > As I understand it, right effort and the other factors that are to 
> be
> > developed are cetasikas (mental factors) that arise together 
at 
> moments of
> > true satipatthana.  At such moments, and at such moments 
only, the 
> path
> > leading out of samsara is being developed.
> > When those factors arise at such moments they each 
perform their
> > particular 'path-factor' function.  
> 
> The conventional, everyday notions of "trying hard", "arousing 
> energy", "making wish", "strives for the non-arising of 
[akusala]" 
> etc. is indeed closely linked to atta or sakaya ditthi. 
> 
> But understanding of right striving can only come about when 
the veil 
> of ignorance about the nature of conventional, everyday striving 
is 
> lifted. By just talking about the imperfections of conventional 
> striving we run the risk of dismissing or rejecting those 
> conventional notions before understanding has grown strong 
enough to 
> replace the conventional notions with the right ones in practice 
and 
> everyday living. The result could too easily be a Jack Kerouac, 
> Timothy Leary, Beat, superficial understanding of the concept 
with a 
> feeling of relief that there's no one responsible for the kusala 
and 
> akusala. It would not be beneficial to replace the conventional 
> understanding of "engenders wish, makes effort, arouses 
energy, 
> exerts the mind, strives for the non-arising of evil bad states 
that 
> have not arisen; engenders wish, makes effort, arouses 
energy, exerts 
> the mind, strives for the abandoning of evil bad states that have 
> arisen;..." with its conventional counterpart "does not engender 
> wish, cannot arouse right energy, does not exert the mind, 
should not 
> strive for the non-arising of evil bad states..." This miccha ditthi 
> would be more along the lines of "...no fruit or result of good 
and 
> bad actions; no this world, no other world...", which is so often 
and 
> so easily more serious than the sakaya ditthi of conventional 
> understanding of "striving". This miccha ditthi breeds a sense 
of 
> complacency and a weakening of a sense of responsibility 
(ahiri and 
> anottapa) that are not conducive to development of insight ["Oh, 
it 
> is such a relief to know there is no one responsible for kusala 
and 
> akusala".] 
> 
> This reminds of an encounter with my first meditation teacher 
in 
> Thailand. When I was an undergraduate college student, I 
found 
> classes pretty easy and I always tried to do just well enough to 
get 
> an A-, which really wasn't difficult most of the time. After 
> graduating, I went immediately to graduate school in pure 
math. 
> Although I went to a fancy school for my undergraduate degree 
and a 
> second tier graduate school, the quality of work expected in 
graduate 
> school was so much higher than that expected in 
undergraduate school 
> that I had tremendous difficulty keeping up because I never 
learned 
> how to work when I was an undergraduate. Near the end of the 
first 
> year, I was struggling to pass one of my classes and getting 
quite 
> stressed about it. I then reflected briefly (and wrongly!) on 
> some "Buddhist" and "Taoist" notions of "striving is 
unwholesome; not-
> striving is wholesome". The answer was then oh-so-clear: Just 
skip 
> the final! What a great sense of relief! I couldn't expect to pass 
> the class, then, but the idea of caring about passing a class is 
just 
> evidence of ego and clinging, so why should I care about the 
class?! 
> Just forget about it instead! I was proud of this insight and told 
my 
> monk teacher the story. He said [paraphrase]: "When are you 
going to 
> learn to deal with difficult situations responsibly?" Oh my! How 
> right he was! The idea is to remove the self from the striving, 
not 
> to remove the striving, i.e. to make the striving "right striving" 
> not by abandoning striving but by abandoning the wrongness 
of the 
> striving. 
> 
> This is part of the genious of Buddha's masterful use of 
language and 
> why "path" means so much more than any single moment of 
consciousness 
> and why the teaching is so deep: It makes sense to interpret 
the 
> words in a conventional sense (good in the beginning), in a 
deeper 
> philosophical sense (good in the middle), and in the deepest, 
> liberating sense (good in the end). It is extraordinarily helpful to 
> present these ideas in language that is so rich and has so 
much depth 
> that it can be helpful to all sorts of people who are willing to 
> listen, those who understand it all at just the conventional level 
> and those who understand it at the deepest levels.
> 
> This highlights one of our differences. You wrote:
> > The effort being referred to here is not effort of the 
conventional 
> kind,
> > because that inevitably involves the idea of a self (even 
though 
> our aim
> > may be the development of the path as we understand it) but 
rather 
> the
> > effort that accompanies a moment of satipatthana.
> 
> I disagree. In my understanding, Buddha was such a master of 
> language, such a master of Dhamma, and so careful in his 
thinking 
> that his statements can be interpreted on a number of different 
> levels and they make sense on a number of different levels, 
depending 
> on the capability of the hearer to comprehend. I'd agree that the 
> meaning of "effort" you are referring to is certainly a part of the 
> teaching, but don't you think the teaching is rich enough to 
make 
> sense on a conventional level as well? If not, then why would 
he make 
> such extensive use of conventional language without giving us 
an 
> explicit caveat that he did not mean his words did not mean 
what they 
> seem to mean? Was he talking in code language, intended 
solely for 
> those who could understand the concepts at their deepest 
level? If 
> so, then the teaching is not nearly so deep as it seems to me, 
but 
> from my experience, any of my guesses about the depth of the 
teaching 
> always turn out to be too shallow, so I hesitate to accept that 
the 
> language of "striving" and "energy" are only meant to be taken 
on one 
> level.
> 
> Dan

 
5637 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 10:45pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Loke,

Something is considered to be born whole when you appear "whole", with 
all your parts, at the moment of birth consciousness.  Humans are 
considered to have birth conciousness at the point of the conception (not 
9 months later!) and at that point, we were only a single-celled organism 
(about to multiply rapidly).

It is still not entirely clear to me why there appear to be very heavy 
considerations about the human existence while it seems that to be born a 
Deva, one must have even higher kamma to be born in such a plane.  The 
considerations I am talking about are:

1) The human planes are not too happy and it is not completely 
miserable.  Therefore, all kinds of dhammas appear that don't appear in 
other planes.
2) It is possible to develop all different levels of kusalas in the human 
plane.  It is hard to give (dana) in the deva planes.
3) Since human lives are so short comparing to other planes' existence, in  
this samsara, the time as a human is probably a very small percentage.
4) Sammasam buddha can only be a human.
5) Somehow, the commentaries mention that the results of killing an Ariya 
human are more severe than killing an ariya deva!

As long as we are stuck in this samsara, we will eventually be born as a 
human again.  It is just a question of how long since the different 
explanations say it is unlikely.


kom
--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Kom,
> 
> born whole .. what do you mean... with all parts.... are human 
considered
> not with all parts.... since you mentioned it, the probability of reborn a
> human seems distant... like cherishing the human existence and ractise
> Dhamma and the sort.... seems to be pointing that we ain't gonna be 
humans
> again unless we have huge good accumulations....
> 
> what do you think ?
> 
> Loke CL
>

 
5638 From: Dan Dalthorp   
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 11:13pm
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  > Enjoyed this post of yours with the story about your meditation 
> teacher in Thailand.  I had not realised (or had forgotten, if you 
> have mentioned it before) that you have a Thailand connection.  
> Do tell us more about it sometime.
I did send Sarah a note about it a few months ago. You are welcome to 
look at it if you'd like. If you have any other questions, I'd be 
happy to discuss them with you.
 
> well as vipassana, I believe the suttas are not to be read in 
> terms of convectional effort, ie, that that is not the meaning with 
> which they were delivered.
I think this is the heart of our disagreement. To me, one of the 
amazing things about the teachings is their great depth and their 
sensibility on so many levels. Buddha spoke to large and diverse 
audiences, yet the discourses have things to offer all the listeners. 
For example, in the anapansati sutta (MN 118), the Buddha addressed an 
audience of Bhikkhus, whose development ranged from Arahantship to 
non-Ariyan samatha meditators. What they had in common was an earnest 
desire to learn Dhamma. The difference in level of understanding 
between an Arahant and a non-Ariyan samatha meditator is immense 
(unfathomable for the likes of me). Do you suppose the Buddha's words 
would have the same meaning for all those different ears? I don't 
believe it for a minute.

> If you want a reason as to why he did not spell things our more, 
> my answer would be that he was talking to some very highly 
> developed individuals and the message was appropriate for the 
> particular listeners.  

Buddha was a truly great teacher, and I really doubt he was thinking 
so narrowly in his discourses. It is just too much of a coincidence 
that his teaching would make sense on so many levels and to so many 
people if he only intended it to have meaning on one level and in a 
way that is so different from the conventional meaning of the words he 
chose to use.

 
5639 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Hi, Robert (and Dan) -

       I agree with you in the following with regard to your praises for 
"Amazing Grace" and for Dan's excellent post. I find that my "Buddhism" has 
led to an increased appreciation of much that is to be found in other 
religions, including my birth religion of Judaism. I find that the Dhamma 
serves as a source of deep understanding for (what I consider to be) the best 
parts of those other religions.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 6/15/01 11:09:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> Dear dan,
> Some good points here. Rather than discuss them I will just add that 
> today I listened to "Amazing Grace". We can listen and interpret it 
> in our own way, in ways that accord with Dhamma, or ways that don't. 
> Whichever way it is a moving song.
> robert 
> 
> 
> Dan wrote:
> > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of god
> > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> > > serious the view is. 
> > I think about it just the opposite way! The concept of "grace of 
> God" 
> > or "salvation by faith" is a crude version of anatta. This is sure 
> to 
> > raise a lot of hackles, but try to understand my point before 
> letting 
> > it condition too much dosa! Christian faith is all about putting 
> the 
> > ego aside and letting actions be guided by the Holy Spirit. Any 
> > action -- even one that superficially looks very good -- that is 
> > guided by the personal will is at best non-effectual in salvation. 
> > Instead, Christian faith demands that the ego be put aside and 
> faith 
> > in God be developed. If faith is strong enough, good works are done 
> > incessantly, cheerfully and without any nudging from the ego or the 
> > will or the atta. The view is not "anatta" per se but only that any 
> > activity governed by atta rather than God is necessarily akusala. 
> > What is "God"? Well, I'd say that it is a crutch that Christians 
> use 
> > for understanding anatta. It can be reasonably effective in 
> > attenuating people's clinging to self, and as far as that goes it 
> is 
> > helpful. Ultimately, though, liberation does require dropping that 
> > crutch. 
> > 
> > As for doing good works, I'm sure both Mother Theresa and Buddha 
> > would disagree that "good works" per se is the vehicle for 
> salvation 
> > or enlightenment. Mother Theresa would say that faith is key: If 
> > faith is strong, the good works will naturally follow 
> > without "effort" and without direction from the will. Buddha would 
> > say that wisdom is key: If wisdom is strong, the good works will 
> > naturally follow without "effort" and without direction from any 
> > atta. Neither puts much stock in external good works. Both put much 
> > stock in purification of the mind. This is a very important point. 
> > 
> > Buddha did not have any prescription: "Do this and you will move 
> > toward enlightenment." He did not say: "Sit on a cushion and direct 
> > attention to the sensation of the breath on the area above the 
> upper 
> > lip as that breath enters and leaves the nose. If you do so, you 
> will 
> > be enlightened." Instead, he talked a lot about wisdom and gave 
> lots 
> > of example of wise people doing this and lots of "good works", but 
> it 
> > is the wisdom and not the work that is important. Bramajala sutta 
> has 
> > a wonderful discussion of this point. Buddha talks about how 
> > superficial people praise him for his good works, but those who 
> have 
> > a deeper understanding recognize that the good works flow from his 
> > wisdom rather than the other way around, and that it is his wisdom 
> > that is most deserving of praise.
> > 
> > "The Bondage of the Will" is a wonderful book that Martin Luther 
> > wrote about the Christian conception that any activity directed by 
> > the will is not only ineffectual for attaining salvation, it is 
> > downright sinful because it demonstrates a lack of faith in God---
> > shades of "sakaya ditthi is akusala" and "liberation by insight, 
> not 
> > by ritual meditation or chanting or reading". 
> > 
> > Dan
> 
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         
 
5640 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ignorance and wrong view (Moha and ditthi)

 
  op 14-06-2001 17:18 schreef Num op Num:

> Hi Nina, Sarah and all,>

> I have been reading the book, Cetasika.  At first I plan to finish the book
> first then post a question. But I think, I better clarify something before I
> move on.
> 
> About moha and ditthi.  The difference and the quality of these two cetasikas
> are striking. From my general understanding, when there is no wrong view,
> there should be no ignorance but that is not the case.
> 
> Let me put throw in the definition of these two cetasikas, so everybody can
> talk on the same ground.
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> 
> The quotes from the book,Cetasikas, which are from Atthasalini:
> 
> Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic of blindness or
> opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or function of
> covering the intrinsic nature of object; the manifestation of being opposed
> to right practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise
> attention, and should be regarded as the root of all defilements.
> 
> Ditthi (wrong view) : ..it has unwise conviction as characteristic;
> perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to
> see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest
> fault.
> 
> The Sotapanna eradicate ditthi ( and/or sakkaya-ditthi) completely, he/she is
> definitely on the ariyan path but still can be suffered from lobha, dosa and
> moha. The sotapanna still cling to birth, status etc.  I remember reading
> that Ven.Ananda cried in sadness after the buddha passed away.
> 
> So wrong view does not always arise with every akusula citta, it coarises
> with only 4 lobha-mula-citta. There is no wrong view with dosa-mula-citta and
> moha-mula-citta, even in doubtful citta, (vicikiccha-sampayutta). So there
> can be an ignorance without a wrong view.  This is interesting.
> 
> So my point is even without wrong view, the suffer and ignorance are still
> there. So, I guess panna (understanding) is still a key in penetrating
> through the reality.
> 
> Dear Num, what you got from my cetasika book is all right. Ignorance
accompanies each akusala citta and it conditions that citta, also the citta
with wrong view. Ignorance does not know realities, it does not know what is
kusala and akusala. When there is lobha or dosa there is ignorance of
realities, even if you have learnt the Dhamma. It seems it is all forgotten
at that moment. There are many moments of forgetfulness of realities in a
day; there may be moments of moha-mulacittas, when there is just ignorance,
not even lobha or dosa. But sometimes there may be awareness of sound as it
appears. Then we can learn the difference between the moments of sati and
the moments without sati, when there is ignorance of realities. Moha can be
an object of sati, its characteristic can be known when it appears.
Wrong view, ditthi, is a distorted view of reality, and it has many degrees.
One may really believe that there is my mind which lasts, or one may believe
that there is no difference between kusala and akusala, that these do not
bring their appropriate results. Such a view can lead to evil deeds harming
other people. Also wrong practice is a form of ditthi, someone may believe
that he can only be aware of realities when performing a special practice,
that it is not possible in daily life. Wrong view always goes together with
clinging as you remarked, one clings to that view. We have accumulated wrong
view, it is a latent tendency, anusaya, just as ignorance. Latent tendencies
do not arise with the akusala citta, they have been accumulated and are
carried on from moment to moment, but at any time they can condition the
arising of akusala citta.
Is this explanation sufficient for now? Nina.


 
5641 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:07am
Subject: right effort

 
  Dear friends,
I like very much Jon�s explanation of the four right efforts, stressing that
while there is satipatthana, there is the fulfilment of the four right
efforts (samma-padhana): there are conditions for avoiding akusala which has
not yet arisen,overcoming akusala which has arisen, developing kusala which
has not yet arisen and maintaining kusala which has arisen.
Then one is on the Middle Way, one does not force oneself in performing
difficult practices so as to supress akusala, nor is one indulgent and lax.
Some people find it a relief not to be responsible for their aksuala, since
it is conditioned already. Different types of citta may have such thoughts.
It may be akusala citta which does not see the disadvantage of akusala. But
if there is right understanding of conditions there is kusala citta: one may
not torment oneself by scrupulous thoughts and realize that akusala can be
an object of awareness, and at that moment there is kusala citta.Through
satipatthana one will have more understanding of the conditions for the
cittas which arise and one comes to see more the benefit of kusala and the
danger of akusala. Speaking in conventional words of responsibility, there
will be more sense of responsibilty for one�s actions. It is sati, not self
which realizes the danger of akusala.
The expression <suppressing the hindrances> may give rise to
misunderstandings. One may have associations with an idea of self who is
suppressing them. Wise people in the Buddha�s time who developed samatha
even to the degree of jhana developed this with pa~n~naa: this kind of
understanding knew the disadvantages of akusala and the right conditions for
calm. They knew how to be temporarily free from the hindrances by
concentrating on one of the meditation subjects. They could do this not by
forcing themselves to difficult practices, it was by pa~n~naa which knew the
right conditions to become temporarily free from the hindrances.
In the scriptures we read the Buddha spoke to people about the inception of
energy or effort. He spoke in conventional terms (according to the method of
the suttanta) to different people in order to help them to have a sense of
urgency. 
Santi Phantakeong explains about this subject in his Lexicon:

<One should practise as someone who has fire on his head... one should be
energetic today, who knows whether death comes tomorrow...There should be
energy and no laziness during day and night, one may have only one night to
practise.
The teaching of Dhamma in this way was the condition for the listeners who
had confidence to be inclined to the application of energy for kusala.
However, one should understand the Abhidhamma which teaches that all
dhammas, realities, are anatta, non-self. Otherwise there would be intention
or determination with an idea of self who has energy. Or, when energy
slackens and it is not as a person wishes or according to his expectations,
he may become impatient. This is not the way of practice the Buddha taught.
If someone has the firm understanding that all dhammas are anatta and he
hears words exhortatiing to the application of energy it may be a condition
for the arising of energy or it may not, it all depends on conditions. Then
he has no wrong understanding and he knows that energy or effort is only a
kind of reality, a dhamma. And this energy or effort the Buddha spoke of is
nothing other but energy for the study and awareness of the dhamma which is
appearing. Even if satipatthana does not arise, he does not worry about it,
but he sees the benefit of all levels of kusala and the disadvantage and
danger of all kinds of akusala. It depends on conditions whether kusala
citta or akusala citta arises.>
Thus we see that the study of the Abhidhamma is most helpful for the
understanding of the words of the sutta.
With Metta, Nina.

 
5642 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 2:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] right effort

 
  Dear Nina,

It has occurred to me that my own posts have tended to
lower the overall quality of the material here by
focusing on 'lower' rather than 'abhi' Dhamma.  A post
like this one, showing so clearly how the two work
together, is priceless to a remedial student like
myself.  Anumodanaa, Ma'am.

mike

p.s.  Thanks also for your superb books.

--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:

> It is sati, not self
> which realizes the danger of akusala.

Sati, not pa��aa?




 
5643 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:16am
Subject: Re: right effort

 
  Good explanation, Nina. Thanks.

And Mike:
> It has occurred to me that my own posts have tended to
> lower the overall quality of the material here by
> focusing on 'lower' rather than 'abhi' Dhamma.  
Nonsense! If that kind of reasoning were true, Buddha would never 
have spoken much of the suttas, would never have used conventional 
language, and would never have spoken to householders.

We delight in your words, Mike.

Dan

 
5644 From: Lim Tai Eng.   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 0:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _

 
  I would appreciate if you could email the e-file Beyond Belief by Bhante A.L
De Silva.  Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu.

Metta
LTE


----- Original Message -----
From: selamat 
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest
Number 434 _


> Dear Paul et. al.
>
> If you or someone need, we would deliver you personally (by direct email
> address) an e-file "Beyond Belief" by bhante A.L. De Silva. He wrote the
> book for the Buddhists whose saddha might be trembled by evangelist. It
also
> describe some Basic Important Buddhist concepts. Food for thought for
> Christians and Buddhists who like selling the concept of "God" which we
have
> already realized that There is no God in the ultimate reality; although
> "some/many Buddhists" have the concept.
>
> with metta,
> dhamma study group bogor
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Paul Bail>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 9:03 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest
Number
> 434 _
>
>
> > Dear Loke,
> >
> > If your Christian friends believe what you are talking about is the
doing
> of
> > Satan, then they probably will not listen to you. (Actually some early
> > Christians, including Origen--one of the original Christian "Church
> Fathers"
> > believed that there are a succession of lives--that a soul reincarnates.
> > Your friends probably don't know this. Unfortunately Origne's belief was
> > later condemned by one of the Church councils--but he is still
considered
> one
> > of the Church fathers.  Also the Hassidic Jews believe in
> > reincarnation--though whether their belief stems from the Judaism of
> Jesus's
> > period, or was a later addition from other sources, I do not know.  In
> India,
> > where Buddha was born, reincarnation was already a long established
> belief.
> > However, the Buddha's teaching of rebirth, I think, goes well beyond
that
> > because he describes a moment to moment process as well as a life to
life
> > process.  So maybe it is more important to explain the moment to moment
> > process to your friends.
> >
> > From a logical point of view, the problem with the Christian concept of
> > no-rebirth is that everything has to be decided in this life.  Unless
> > everyone goes to Heaven, some people will have to go to Hell
permanently.
> No
> > rebirth logically leaves Christians with an Eternal Hell as punishment.
> This
> > is difficult to reconcile with a concept of an All-Loving God.  Of
course,
> > they try to do so anyway, but I think it is a major weak point.
> >
> > I guess I wonder whether your friends are questioning you because (1)
they
> > are trying to convert you, (2) they like to argue, (3) they are giving
you
> a
> > hard time, or (4) they have a sincere wish to learn about these things.
> If
> > they don't have a sincere wish, maybe it is better to steer the
discussion
> > onto what you have in common (principles of loving-kindness, morality,
> etc.)?
> > If they continue to try an argue, explain why arguing isn't very useful.
> >
> > Paul Bail
> >
> >    From: "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> > Subject: RE: Digest Number 434
> >
> > Dear Pau Bail,
> >
> >         Actually it was not debate.... maybe I put it wrongly
> > however... people of Christian faiths question me about the rebirth...
how
> > then should I state this concept clearly and accurately as the
Christians
> > don't believe it and rather think it was something against God hence the
> > doing of Satan.... I know for myself that rebirth is an imminent process
> > till libration... but how do I put forth its concept and ideas and
> > workings.... ?
> >
> > rgds,
> > Loke CL
> >

 
5645 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dan

--- Dan Dalthorp  wrote: 
> > Enjoyed this post of yours with the story about your meditation 
> > teacher in Thailand.  I had not realised (or had forgotten, if you 
> > have mentioned it before) that you have a Thailand connection.  
> > Do tell us more about it sometime.
>
> I did send Sarah a note about it a few months ago. You are welcome to 
> look at it if you'd like. If you have any other questions, I'd be 
> happy to discuss them with you.

Thanks.  I will dig it out some time.
 
> > well as vipassana, I believe the suttas are not to be read in 
> > terms of conventional effort, ie, that that is not the meaning with 
> > which they were delivered.
>
> I think this is the heart of our disagreement. To me, one of the 
> amazing things about the teachings is their great depth and their 
> sensibility on so many levels. Buddha spoke to large and diverse 
> audiences, yet the discourses have things to offer all the listeners. 
> For example, in the anapansati sutta (MN 118), the Buddha addressed an 
> audience of Bhikkhus, whose development ranged from Arahantship to 
> non-Ariyan samatha meditators. What they had in common was an earnest 
> desire to learn Dhamma. The difference in level of understanding 
> between an Arahant and a non-Ariyan samatha meditator is immense 
> (unfathomable for the likes of me). Do you suppose the Buddha's words 
> would have the same meaning for all those different ears? I don't 
> believe it for a minute.

I have no argument with this, Dan.  I agree that the discourses are
intended to have meaning at different levels, for listeners of different
levels of understanding.  And I am sure we are all interested in
understanding the suttas at the deepest level of which we are capable.

But none of this is of any real use in ascertaining the meaning of a
particular sutta or passage (eg. in the present discussion, what is meant
by right effort).  For that I think we need the commentaries and the
abhidhamma.  Do you agree that these texts represent the best source of
information on this issue?

Jon


 
5646 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:37pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's questions on westerners and rebirth

 
  CL

I have something I think you might find of interest in your search for
reasons why westerners become interested in Buddhism, and how they handle
issues such as rebirth.

The other day I received an email from a former colleague, now several
years retired and living back in his home country.  Since leaving Hong
Kong he has become a Buddhist!  He gives a short explanation, which I will
quote below.  It seems that the question of rebirth was quite central to
his change of beliefs.  The conversation he mentions was I think the only
conversation I ever had with him on matters of religion, beliefs etc.

Here is what he writes:
I thought of it [Buddhism] as a curiosity until one day in Hong Kong.   
It was the day when I happened to be talking to you and I said something
like - "Isn't it the Buddhists who believe in reincarnation?"   And you
said - "So do the Christians - in their way".    That thought had such an
effect on me that shortly afterwards I concluded that I wasn't a
Christian.     I went and got various books - mainly by Christmas
Humphreys - and decided that his Theosophy or Buddhism made a great deal
of sense - and that a lot of Buddhist ideas make a great deal of sense.   
 Incidentally, I believe Voltaire once wrote - "It is no more surprising
to be born twice than it is to be born once."

So there's a first-hand account.  Does it answer any questions for you?

Jon


--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: > 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> > Sent:	Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM
> > > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> > 
> >  Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make
> > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of
> > slowly bringing one around. 
> > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _
> > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a
> > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated
> > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life
> > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who
> > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong
> > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the
> > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years.
> > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he
> > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a
> > pacceka buddha.
> > 
> > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in
> > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview
> > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically
> > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an
> > unpopular job. 
> > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that
> > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem
> > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the
> > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do
> > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we
> > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion
> > or slow our efforts to explain.
> > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
> > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed
> > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to
> > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only
> > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any
> > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana.
> > robert
> > 
> 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  robert I agree with your views ... and
> I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give example
> of
> the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince the wrong
> viewed party ?thank you in advance
> 
> 	Loke CL
> 



 
5647 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books

 
  Dear Dan,
I said the guide to patthana is a beginner book not the vol 1 text.It is not a must to study patthana in negative ,positive,dukapatthana,tikapatthana from 6 0r 5 vol of patthana.We need to study patthana as mentioned in visuddhimagga magga which is enough for us .i cannot remember all the numbers in VM until now.I think to study Yamaka and dhatukatha is enough for us.Yamaka already been translted in Myanmar (Eng).It is printed in Malaysia for free but  I cannot get any set for you at this moment.





-----Original Message-----
From: Dan
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:00:45 -0000
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books


> Thanks for the explanation, Teng Kee. Clearly, I'm not quite ready 
> for vol. 2 (probably not vol. 1 yet either, but since you 
> say "beginner" book, there may be hope!). But vol. 2 still seems much 
> less cryptic than Patthana itself.
> 
> Dan
> 
> > Narada also wrote guide to patthana vol.2 but not published by PTS
> (pts have vol 1 only and two patthana text tran by him).I have the 
> vol 2 printed in Myanmar which have tran. from Mulatika and anutika 
> with charts,it is thicker than vol.1  which is just a beginner book.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sarah Procter Abbott
> > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:03:32 +0800 (CST)
> > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Request for Books
> > 
> > 
> > > Dan,
> > > 
> > > I just took this from the PTS website.
> > > ,
> > > Pali Text Society, Ancillary Works, Paperbacks 
> > > ... in paperback. Guide to Conditional Relations, Ven. U Narada, 
> Vol. I, 1979
> > > ISBN 198 X �23.50 Tape ca...
> > >  99.9% URL: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/pdf_ver.pdf
> > > 
> > > my copy is hard copy but also 1979.
> > > 
> > > It's a guide to the 1st 12 pages of the Patthana (and a LOT 
> easier to read or
> > > refer to, I find).
> > > 
> > > (This is not to be confused with 'The Guide', translation of 
> Nettipakarana by
> > > Ven Nanamoli and also v.useful0
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- Dan wrote: > > As Rob said, this Guide is very clear
> > > and helpful indeed. You'll 
> > > > find it in the
> > > > > PTS catalogue and i'm sure it's not too expensive as it's 
> pretty 
> > > > slim. Hey,
> > > > 
> > > > Oh my! What did I just check out of the library then? First I 
> learn 
> > > > that there are TWO Narada's that write great Abhidhamma books, 
> and 
> > > > then I learn that there must be TWO Narada "Guides" because the 
> one I 
> > > > have is quite thick and out of print! I will indeed have to 
> look at 
> > > > the PTS edition too. Thanks!
> > > 
> > > Hmm..I don't know what your Narada Guide is..maybe the same and 
> another
> > > edition..? The one above only has 240 pages.
> > > 
> > > Erik, if you take the plunge and order from PTS, remember to 
> become a member,
> > > get yr discount and nominated free book for the year.
> > > 
> > > S.

 
5648 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Request for Books

 
  Thanks for more good suggestions, Teng Kee.

> I said the guide to patthana is a beginner book not the vol 1 text.
Right. 

>I think to study Yamaka and dhatukatha is enough for us.Yamaka 
already been translted in Myanmar (Eng).It is printed in Malaysia for 
free but  I cannot get any set for you at this moment.
> 
I did not know of the Yamaka translation. I've read a few lines of 
Yamaka, and it certainly was be more interesting than C.A.F. Rhys 
Davids' "valley of dry bones" comment about it would suggest. I'm 
glad to hear of an endorsement of the value of this little-read book. 
These books out of Myanmar are difficult to attain in the U.S., but 
now I have something to try to track down. 

Dan

 
5649 From: Dan 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:57pm
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  > I have no argument with this, Dan.  I agree that the discourses are
> intended to have meaning at different levels, for listeners of 
different
> levels of understanding.  And I am sure we are all interested in
> understanding the suttas at the deepest level of which we are 
capable.

O.K., good. I agree. 

> But none of this is of any real use in ascertaining the meaning of a
> particular sutta or passage (eg. in the present discussion, what is 
meant
> by right effort).  For that I think we need the commentaries and the
> abhidhamma.  Do you agree that these texts represent the best 
source of
> information on this issue?

I still think a chase for THE real meaning of the discourses is risky 
because it the natural outcome is an attitude of "This is the only 
right way. All other ways are wrong"--something we must be on guard 
against at all times.

I find the commentaries and Abhidhamma of great help in bringing out 
deeper and deeper meanings. I also find your penchant for always 
aiming at higher and higher levels of understanding refreshing and 
helpful as well. 
Dan

 
5650 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  --- Dan wrote:

> I still think a chase for THE real meaning of the discourses is 
risky 
> because it the natural outcome is an attitude of "This is the only 
> right way. All other ways are wrong"--something we must be on guard 
> against at all times.

In keeping with the Four Ties (from the Abhidhammattha 
Sangaha): "(iv) There are four (bodily) Ties (5): 1. Covetousness, 2. 
Ill will, 3. Adherence to rites and ceremonies, 4. Dogmatic belief 
that 'this alone is truth'."

Speaking of #3 (for our Thai contingent here), I got a big kick out 
of this article:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/newindex/today/160601_news03.html

 
5653 From: wynn   
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd:Questions)

 
  Hi Robert,

You wrote:

> After the scandal with Phra yantra (who was once
> thought to an arahant) it seems like Thais are now realising
> that arahants are not as common as some believed.



Tell me what you think about Phra Yantra after reading this.
Personally, I think maybe he is innocent after all.

=====

From The Buddhist Council of New South Wales
http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/Teaching_1.htm
http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/index.htm

U.S.A. JUDGE RULES THAI BUDDHIST MONK FACES PERSECUTION IN THAILAND
http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/AjahnYantra.htm

The Background to the Ajahn Yantra Conspiracy
http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/AjahnYantra_1.htm

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:A7k6homchR8:www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/phra
.htm+Phra+Yantra&hl=en

=====

http://www.jps.net/sunnataram/
http://www.jps.net/sunnataram/recovery/index.html

 
5654 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 0:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd:Questions)

 
  Dear Wyn,
I met Phra yantra and spent a whole day with him (we went to a
secluded beach with some other monks in a van). It is a very
long story. I didn't even try to reach a conclusion about it
all. I will say that the urls you give here give an very
one-sided picture. I feel exactly the same way now toward him as
before the scandal- which is to say he seemed a friendly enough
monk.
he was held out to be an arahant by so many though - and the
people who worshipped him were the very ones who now despise
him. Life's like that.
robert
--- wynn  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> > After the scandal with Phra yantra (who was once
> > thought to an arahant) it seems like Thais are now realising
> > that arahants are not as common as some believed.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what you think about Phra Yantra after reading this.
> Personally, I think maybe he is innocent after all.
> 
> =====
> 
> From The Buddhist Council of New South Wales
> http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/Teaching_1.htm
> http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/index.htm
> 
> U.S.A. JUDGE RULES THAI BUDDHIST MONK FACES PERSECUTION IN
> THAILAND
> http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/AjahnYantra.htm
> 
> The Background to the Ajahn Yantra Conspiracy
> http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/AjahnYantra_1.htm
> 
>
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:A7k6homchR8:www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/phra
> .htm+Phra+Yantra&hl=en
> 
> =====
> 
> http://www.jps.net/sunnataram/
> http://www.jps.net/sunnataram/recovery/index.html
> 




 
5655 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Ledi Sayadaw

 
  Hi, Abhidhamma Experts!

       I have begun to read the following work, which I am finding pleasant:
*************************************
The Patthanuddesa Dipani

The Buddhist Philosophy of Relations 

by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. 
**********************************************
       Could any of you let me have your opinion about Ledi Sayadaw and his 
work? I would appreciate it.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5656 From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:42am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ledi Sayadaw

 
  His work is excellent. Check out his work on Vipassana, too... "Manual of
Insight"... I think?

Metta...

----- Original Message -----
From: <Howard>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 1:16 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ledi Sayadaw


> Hi, Abhidhamma Experts!
>
>        I have begun to read the following work, which I am finding
pleasant:
> *************************************
> The Patthanuddesa Dipani
>
> The Buddhist Philosophy of Relations
>
> by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt.
> **********************************************
>        Could any of you let me have your opinion about Ledi Sayadaw and
his
> work? I would appreciate it.
>
> With metta,
> Howard
>
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)
>
 
 
 
5657 From: Num 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: In my opinion

 
  Hi Herman, Kom and all,

Herman, I am really entertained by your questions and the way you study 
reality.  


> I do not know whether I know all the qualities. How will I know when 
> I do? I know some qualities, I think, but I do not know whether I am 
> deluded about them, ignorant or whatever. I know what other people 
> say is kusala or akusala, but this isn't self-evident. The reality I 
> am aware of is "x says this is kusala" not "x is kusala". When there 
> is anger, there are conditions for anger. To then label that as 
> akusala adds nothing except inhibition and the feeling that this 
> anger is not acceptable, that it should not be, while the reality is 
> that it just is. If you are aware of anger then you are aware of 
> anger.        \
> 
> 
>    Good and bad and in between are not absolutes, they are 
> relative to a goal, a purpose. What is good for one person in one 
> situation is bad for another. Over time I can start to believe that 
> by smiling a lot I am influencing the course of the universe in a 
> positive way. But am I ? And is that my goal?>>>>


I think this is an excellent question.  At times I think, I can answer myself 
clearly but moha or ignorance is enormous for me to penetrate through. At 
times, I still doubt about this kind of circumstances.      I'd like to share 
my opinion that kusala or akusala is self-evident. Thing isn't kusala or 
akusala b/c someone calls it that way or akusala cannot be kusala even if 
someone keep telling us that it is.  Even the Buddha cannot change it's 
nature, reality is reality.   Dhamma or reality is real, the name or how we 
call it cannot change it's quality.  We still need concept for thinking and 
communication though.   Let me bring up the Piyajatika sutta "From the one 
who is dear", http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn087.html.       
The Buddha said this to the householder who his son just passed away, 
"'That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is -- for sorrow, 
lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come 
springing from one who is dear.'"  The householder was not delight in the 
buddha's words, he went on and share what he heard with the group of gamblers 
who also did not agree with what the buddha said.   Well, I can admit that at 
time I agree with the gambler not the Buddha.  The reason, I like this sutta 
and brought it up because I am too, when I run into some situations or 
activities, I ask myself is it kusala or akusala.  Is playing tennis, 
jogging, biking, bird watching, traveling or even studying kusala or it's 
akusala?  One of my friends asked me if I saw a man pointing a rifle to a big 
group of school kids and it happens that I have a gun in my pocket, would I 
shoot that man to save hundreds of kids.  

Kusula/akusula is not the same as right or wrong in conventional sense.  In 
the States we drive on the right, in Thailand I drive on the left. My friend 
said that I drive on the wrong side, I told him that I drive on the left side 
not a wrong side.  Let me paste another quote from Nina's books, Abhidhamma 
in Daily Life and Cetasikas :

_____________________________________________________________________

We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. The 'Atthasalini 
(Book I, Part I, Ch.1, 38) speaks about the meaning of the word 'kusala'. The 
word 'kusala' has many meanings;  it can mean 'of good health',  'faultless', 
 'skillful', 'productive of happy results'. When we perform dana 
(generosity), sila (morality) and bhavana (mental development), the citta is 
kusala. All different kinds of wholesomeness such as the appreciation of 
other people’s good deeds, helping others, politeness, paving respect, 
observing the precepts, studying and teaching Dhamma, samatha (tranquil 
meditation) and vipassana (development of ‘insight’), are included in dana, 
sila or bhavana. Kusala is ‘productive of happy results'; each good deed will 
bring a pleasant result. The 'Atthasalini' (Book I, Part I, Ch.I, 39) states 
about akusala:  

'Akusala' means 'not kusala'. Just as the opposite to friendship is enmity, 
or the opposite to greed, etc,. is disinterestedness, etc., so 'akusala' is 
opposed to 'kusala'...

Unwholesome deeds will bring unhappy results. Nobody wishes to experience an 
unhappy result, but many people are ignorant about the cause which brings an 
unhappy result, about akusala. They do not realize when the citta is 
unwholesome and they do not always know when they perform unwholesome deeds.    

____________________________________________________________________

Only these three mental phenomena when arise with citta, will cause that 
citta become akusala in nature,  :

Moha (delusion, ignorance) has characteristic of blindness or opposition to 
knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or function of covering the 
intrinsic nature of object; the manifestation of being opposed to right 
practice or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention, and 
should be regarded as the root of all defilements. 

Lobha(clinging or attachment):
...lobha has the characteristic of grasping an object, like birdlime (lit. 
'monkey lime'). Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is 
manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lampblack. Its proximate cause 
is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current 
of craving, it should be  regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of 
loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean

and Dosa (aversion):
..It has flying into anger or churlishness as characteristic, like a smitten 
snake; spreading of itself or writhing as when poison takes effect, as 
function; or, burning that on which it depends as function, like a 
jungle-fire; offending or injuring as manifestation, like a foe who has got 
his chance; having the ground of vexation as proximate cause, like urine 
mixed with poison.

________________________________________________________________________


I think all three are hard to really see and be aware of. I always take 
akusala for being kusala. Wrong view is very pervasive.  Dosa ; if it's 
intensity is pretty  severe may be easily observed b/c it always occurs with 
unpleasant feeling. Lobha can arise with neutral or pleasant feeling or even 
happiness or satisfaction (piti) and we usually like that feeling or state of 
emotion.  Thinking of these realities is different from being aware of or 
understanding of the reality.    These 3 realities have their own immediate 
effects as well as future effects. We don't have to wait their future 
effects.  Trying to suppress them without really understanding them, we may 
block them for a while. Smatha will block these temporary, like when you a 
rock on top of  the grass, it will stop growing, but as soon as you remove 
the stone, the grass will re-grow again.  

Come back to the question, that what kind of activity is kusala or akusala.  
Again, thinking is not a real moment of awareness.  Citta is very fast. When 
I play tennis, series of perception, different kinds of citta, feeling and 
emotion happens.  Kusala can happen in the middle of long series of 
unawareness of reality.  Nobody else can tell, what kind of citta(kusala, 
akusala or others) arise at that moment.  We can guess or think about it if 
we are not aware of it.

I don't think I really answer your question, just like to share my opinion.

Best wishes,

Num




      


5658 From: Dan 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 8:02am
Subject: Re: Ledi Sayadaw

 
  Hi Howard,
Ledi Sayadaw was the teacher of your teacher's teacher. Smart guy.

Dan

> Hi, Abhidhamma Experts!
> 
>        I have begun to read the following work, which I am finding 
pleasant:
> *************************************
> The Patthanuddesa Dipani
> 
> The Buddhist Philosophy of Relations 
> 
> by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. 
> **********************************************
>        Could any of you let me have your opinion about Ledi Sayadaw 
and his 
> work? I would appreciate it.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, 
a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond 
Sutra)                    
>             

 
5659 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 8:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ledi Sayadaw

 
  Dear Howard,
Ledi sayadaw is very good on many aspects of Dhamma - especially
his writing conditions samvega (urgency)- some great stuff on
the dangers of samsara. Then agan you can find bits and pieces
where he departs from the ancient tradition at times - whether
he is right or wrong in those places has been a matter of great
debate.
robert
--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Abhidhamma Experts!
> 
>        I have begun to read the following work, which I am
> finding pleasant:
> *************************************
> The Patthanuddesa Dipani
> 
> The Buddhist Philosophy of Relations 
> 
> by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. 
> **********************************************
>        Could any of you let me have your opinion about Ledi
> Sayadaw and his 
> work? I would appreciate it.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at
> dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a
> flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)    



 
5660 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ledi Sayadaw

 
  Hi, Robert -

In a message dated 6/16/01 8:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> Dear Howard,
> Ledi sayadaw is very good on many aspects of Dhamma - especially
> his writing conditions samvega (urgency)- some great stuff on
> the dangers of samsara. Then agan you can find bits and pieces
> where he departs from the ancient tradition at times - whether
> he is right or wrong in those places has been a matter of great
> debate.
> robert
> 
==========================
       Thanks a lot for your quick reply.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

5661 From: wynn   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 11:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re:Fwd:Questions)

 
  Hi,

Only Ajahn Yantra knows whether he was guilty or innocent. There was a
concerted effort by the Thai Government to discredit him and a lot of
the evidence that they produced was proven to be false. An example was
the woman who was supposed to be the mother of his nine year old child.
She later admitted that she was paid to make this claim. Another was the
credit card vouchers supposedly used by him in a Melbourne massage
parlour. the address on the credit slips for the parlour were of their
new address - several years after Ajahn Yantra was in Melbourne.

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was
Re:Fwd:Questions)


> Dear Wyn,
> I met Phra yantra and spent a whole day with him (we went to a
> secluded beach with some other monks in a van). It is a very
> long story. I didn't even try to reach a conclusion about it
> all. I will say that the urls you give here give an very
> one-sided picture. I feel exactly the same way now toward him as
> before the scandal- which is to say he seemed a friendly enough
> monk.
> he was held out to be an arahant by so many though - and the
> people who worshipped him were the very ones who now despise
> him. Life's like that.
> robert

 
5662 From: Herman 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 4:06pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Num, 

Thank you for your reply. I would like to make some comments on one 
section of your reply. I have delted the rest for the sake of brevity.

--- Num wrote:
> Hi Herman, Kom and all,
> 
  Let me paste another quote from Nina's books, Abhidhamma 
> in Daily Life and Cetasikas :
> 
> 
_____________________________________________________________________
> 
> We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. 
The 'Atthasalini 
> (Book I, Part I, Ch.1, 38) speaks about the meaning of the 
word 'kusala'. The 
> word 'kusala' has many meanings;  it can mean 'of good 
health',  'faultless', 
>  'skillful', 'productive of happy results'. When we perform dana 
> (generosity), sila (morality) and bhavana (mental development), the 
citta is 
> kusala. All different kinds of wholesomeness such as the 
appreciation of 
> other people’s good deeds, helping others, politeness, paving 
respect, 
> observing the precepts, studying and teaching Dhamma, samatha 
(tranquil 
> meditation) and vipassana (development of ‘insight’), are 
included in dana, 
> sila or bhavana. Kusala is ‘productive of happy results'; each 
good deed will 
> bring a pleasant result. The 'Atthasalini' (Book I, Part I, Ch.I, 
39) states 
> about akusala:  
> 
> 'Akusala' means 'not kusala'. Just as the opposite to friendship is 
enmity, 
> or the opposite to greed, etc,. is disinterestedness, etc., 
so 'akusala' is 
> opposed to 'kusala'...
> 
> Unwholesome deeds will bring unhappy results. Nobody wishes to 
experience an 
> unhappy result, but many people are ignorant about the cause which 
brings an 
> unhappy result, about akusala. They do not realize when the citta 
is 
> unwholesome and they do not always know when they perform 
unwholesome deeds.    
> 

> Best wishes,
> 
> Num
> 


From these definitions it would appear that only from a result can it 
be known if a deed or thought was kusala or akusala. And therefore 
there needs to be knowledge of what caused what, and that is just 
guesswork for me, or a matter of belief at best.

Each breath keeps me alive. Is it akusala to breathe because it is 
sustaining akusala activity?

I had terrible feelings of guilt when my first son was born. I took 
the responsibility of his existence on my shoulders. I had caused it. 
( a bit conceited, isn't it)All the pain and suffering and ill that 
would ever come upon him and his children was my fault, and all the 
good things as well. I don't think that way anymore.

I have the privilege of two wonderful children, and they have taught 
me more than any one else. And they weren't even trying.

All the best to you Num



Herman

 
5663 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Dan

--- Dan wrote: >  
> 
> I still think a chase for THE real meaning of the discourses is risky 
> because it the natural outcome is an attitude of "This is the only 
> right way. All other ways are wrong"--something we must be on guard 
> against at all times.

Thanks for this reminder (something familiar to those in academic circles,
I'm sure!).

However, I'm not sure it is correct to associate this attitude
particularly with a deepening knowledge of the dhamma.  Is it not more a
matter of an individual's predispositions/accumulated tendencies?  Someone
with little or no understanding could be as prone to it as anyone else. If
right understanding is developed, the effect should be to the contrary.

I accept of course that we never come to know the *real* meaning of a
discourse, even though we may sometimes talk in those terms.  We can only
ever hope to understand the teachings at the level we are currently
capable of and not more.  We should not forget that that level is
beginner's level (speaking for myself, anyway).

Jon


 
5664 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Dan

Sorry, it's me again.

[Jon]
> > You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha 
> and the
> > arising of moments of insight.  If I understand correctly, that 
> connection
> > is supported by the following reasoning:
> > -  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
> > -  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of
> > samatha
> > -  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, 
> (and
> > not otherwise,??) insight can arise.
> > 
> > While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 
> propositions, the
> > 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however 
> is
> > not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read. 
 
[Dan]
> I don't think this is what Erik is saying at all. Insight does not 
> arise BY samatha and suppressing the hindrances. However, samatha and 
> suppressing the hindrances can condition a STRENTGTHENING of insight 
> by allowing a clearer view to realities 

I take your point here, Dan.  It does read as though I was suggesting
that.

What I in fact was trying to indicate was that, according to this
reasoning, insight is much more likely to arise, (or perhaps could only
arise,) in close temporal proximity to the practice of samatha, or in one
who regularly practices samatha, the reason being that at such times the
hindrances are in a subdued state from the influence of the samatha.

(I think in subsequent posts you have both indicated that while the
practice of samatha is not regarded as absolutely essential, it is
certainly a great influence for the better when it comes to insight.)

I have been looking at quite a few passages on the hindrances lately.  I
have yet to come across anything that makes a connection between
suppression of the hindrances by samatha and the development of
satipatthana/arising of insight.  If you or Erik have anything along these
lines I would be interested to see it.

Jon

--- Dan wrote: > Jon
> 
> Erik:
> > > Jonothan, I believe you're missing one thing here. When one does 
> > > samatha and uses that as a basis for vipassana, the effects carry 
> > > over into every activity outside of formal meditation. The 
> hindrances 
> > > may only be suppressed to a high degree during actual samatha & 
> > > jhana. However, the side-effects of samatha & vipassana continue 
> > > during all hours. The mind is "armored" against afflictions 
> because 
> > > of its increased mindfulness and mental clarity. The mind remains 
> > > more or less in equanimity at all times--or at least a whole lot 
> more 
> > > than it would otherwise, and that is a very good thing, because 
> > > kusala & akusala are mutually exclusive, and this signifies that 
> one 
> > > is creating more kusala than one would be otherwise.
> 
> Jon:
> > You make a very direct connection between the practice of samatha 
> and the
> > arising of moments of insight.  If I understand correctly, that 
> connection
> > is supported by the following reasoning:
> > -  the hindrances 'weaken' insight
> > -  the hindrances are (temporally) suppressed by the development of
> > samatha
> > -  therefore by developing samatha and suppressing the hindrances, 
> (and
> > not otherwise,??) insight can arise.
> > 
> > While I have absolutely no disagreement with the first 2 
> propositions, the
> > 3rd is one of those persuasively 'logical' conclusions that however 
> is
> > not, in my view, how the teachings are to be read.  
> 
> I don't think this is what Erik is saying at all. Insight does not 
> arise BY samatha and suppressing the hindrances. However, samatha and 
> suppressing the hindrances can condition a STRENTGTHENING of insight 
> by allowing a clearer view to realities. To emphasize the first 
> point: Even when samatha lifts a fog, sati and vipassana might still 
> keep their eyes closed. When the fog is lifted, the landscape can be 
> viewed with wisdom or not.
> 
> Jon:
> > Speaking for myself, there is no resistance whatsoever to the 
> development
> > of samatha.  But my own views as to what that development is, and 
> the role
> > that samatha plays, may differ markedly from your own, Erik.  I do 
> perhaps
> > disagree with many of the claims that are made regarding samatha, 
> but am
> > happy to discuss the subject any time.
> 
> You are right to disagree with many claims made about samatha, but 
> are your assumptions about what Erik is saying and what I am saying 
> are just what you think we are saying? 
> 
> Dan
> 



 
5665 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 10:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] seeing the danger of akusala

 
  op 15-06-2001 20:37 schreef m. nease op m. nease:
> 
> --- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> 
>> It is sati, not self
>> which realizes the danger of akusala.
> 
> Sati, not pa~n~naa?
>
Dear Mike, There are different levels of realizing the danger of akusala.
Sati is non-forgetful of kusala, and it is heedful, it prevents akusala. As
you can read in the "Expositor", sati searches well the courses of dhammas,
advantageous and disadvantageous:-< these states are advantageous, those
disadvantageous, these states are serviceable, those not serviceable>- and
then removes the disadvatageous and takes up the advantageous>. In the
Questions of King Milinda (Book II, under sati) sati is compared to a
confidential adviser of the King, instructing him in good and evil:<These
things are bad for the king and these good, these helpful and these are the
reverse.> And thus the king makes the evil in himself die out, and keeps up
the good.
There can be the observing of sila without pa~n~naa. It is sati which keeps
one from evil, it is non-forgetful, heedful. There are also other wholesome
cetasikas which perform their task such as shame,hiri, which shrinks back
from evil and fear of blame, ottappa, there is confidence in kusala,
saddhaa, there are many other sobhana cetasikas, each performing their own
function. In the case of abstaining from evil deeds, the cetasikas which are
the abstentions (virati cetasikas) perform their functions. They all realize
the danger of akusala, but each in their own way, performing their own
function. 
Khun Sujin gave once an example of someone who was about to speak an angry
word, she had opened her mouth, but sati kept her from speaking and thus she
did not speak. When I was at the very beginning to learn the Dhamma and
speaking about abstaining from alcohol, Khun Sujin said:<It is not you who
abstains, it is sati that keeps you from drinking>. This impressed me very
much, I had not looked at it that that way.
As I said, there are different levels of seeing the danger of akusala, sila
can also be observed without pa~n~naa. Would one abstain from killing if one
had not realized its danger and disadvantage? But pa~n~naa, understanding,
clearly knows the characteristic of kusala and akusala, which can be
intellectual understanding, considering. When it has been developed by
satipatthana,it can be direct understanding of the true nature of kusala and
akusala as non-self. Understanding can be developed so that it becomes
lokuttara pa~n~naa, supramundane understanding which eradicates defilements
stage by stage. It can become understanding which sees evermore the danger
even of subtle clinging, and of moments without awareness. Understanding is
the condition for the accompanying wholesome cetasikas to prevent the
arising of akusala, to be heedful as to the six doorways. For example, hiri,
shame, can shrink back also from more subtle defilements, it can be shame of
moments of forgetfulness of nama and rupa.Thus, understanding is the
condition for realizing ever more deeply the danger of akusala. It
conditions all the accompanying cetasikas to be more effective in the
performing of their tasks.
It is amazing how all the cetasikas work together. If the Buddha had not
taught this we would never have known, and considering this is Buddhanusati,
a meditation subject of samatha in daily life. It can come very naturally.
When we begin to be mindful of a nama or rupa, there can be Buddhanusati. I
was very glad Robert reminded us in one of his posts about meditation
subjects of samatha in daily life, such as Dhammanusati. He quoted from Khun
Sujin's book Wholesome Deeds I had translated, and even when something I
have translated has been quoted, it is again a special reminder for me. I am
grateful for any reminder.
Nina.

 
5666 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 11:12pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Herman,

--- Herman wrote:
> > Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those conditions?  
> Do you 
> > *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, there 
> *must* be 
> > condition for it to arise?   K. Sujin has mentioned that rebirth 
> may be 
> > absolutely provable at one's death.
> 
> Yes, I believe in conditions, and the results of those conditions, 
> and that all dhammas arise because of conditions. I also believe the 
> conditions are unknowable, meaning neither causes or results can be 
> fully known. Play a game of chess, and try and predict what the board 

Are they truly unknowable even at the intellectual understanding?  We 
hear that in order to see, there must be the following conditions:
1) Eyesense - you can't see if you are blind
2) Consciousness - you can't see if you are asleep
3) Something to see
4) Enough light

Without those, seeing doesn't occur.  I think many (although not all, 
certainly not for me!) conditions can't be thought of in this particular 
manner.  For example, the grasping to the 5 sense objects---visible object, 
sound, taste, smell, tactile objects---can only occur if there are contact of 
the mind and the sense objects, and also the feelings that co-arise with 
such experiences.   

Are these causes-results purely just faith for you or does it make sense for 
you as well?  I have faith that at some level along the path, that some of 
these elementary (not all that is taught) relationship will turn into "this is 
proven for me" because of direct experiences.  My confidence in the 
teaching increases ever so slightly each time I notice (not even at the 
satipathana level) something that match the teachings.

> will look like after one, two, three moves. Or try and determine the 
> moves that caused the current state of the board. Impossible. With 
> such a simple state of affairs , 2 players with sixteen or fewer 
> pieces each you need to cover billions of permutations. How much more 
> complex is this present reality, with infinite causes which are the 
> result of infinite causes which are the result of infinite causes.

As far as the 24 conditions expounded in Abhidhamma, I would certainly 
agree with you.  As I understand how realities condition one another, how 
one reality (such as panna) arises is enormously complex that it may 
appear to somebody as being very close to random.  I don't think even if 
we become enlightened that these conditions will be fully known---I have 
heard this is in the realm of the Buddha's panna only.

On the other hand, if you agree with me in some of the points made 
above, we would both agree that things don't just arise in a random 
fashion.  There must be specific causes in order to have specific effects.  
It just happens that the Buddha indicates that kamma is one of these 
causes in many phenomenons, even if it is not absolutely proveable to you 
and I yet.

> > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over 
> them. I 
> > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know 
> pain, 
> > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom of 
> my 
> > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the sensations 
> at 
> > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, 
> conceit. 
> > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala or 
> > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are 
> kusala 
> > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know it 
> is 
> > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.

Nina and Num have discussed what is akusala recently.  My brief 
understanding is that that they are qualities, if developed, bring only 
unhappy results.  But yet we are not masters of causes and results, so we 
cannot draw such conclusion ourself.   However, the Buddha said this, I 
believe it, and it makes sense to me.  With that state of mind, then I can 
study what are the different qualities and characteristics of the different 
akusala realities, even just so as I know what is meant by kusala and 
akusala, and what I believe will bring good or bad results.

> Because of the complexity of infinite causes, how can I know that 
> this thought caused that result, this action caused that feeling? I 

I think we can only draw conclusion in simple cases.

> really do not have the ability to make those discernments. I know "x 
> says this is good, x says this is bad" I do not know "this is good, 
> that is bad". Good and bad and in between are not absolutes, they are 
> relative to a goal, a purpose. What is good for one person in one 
> situation is bad for another. Over time I can start to believe that 
> by smiling a lot I am influencing the course of the universe in a 
> positive way. But am I ? And is that my goal?

I believe there are absolute qualities of those realities, even if the are 
heavily conditioned by the co-arising realities and other pre-arising 
realities.  I also believe that those qualties bring results.   Although I think 
there are many goals that people pursue when studying Buddhism, but I 
think one result that is unique to Buddhism only, the end of all suffering, is 
a worthwhile goal to have.

> Kusala and akusala are tied to whatever goal is trying to be 
> achieved. This may be trying to feel good or avoiding feeling bad, or 
> escaping from Samsara or realising Nibbana or getting of the wheel of 
> rebirths or whatever. How is it that we set out on a journey when we 
> wouldn't recognise the destination if we tripped over it? And how is 
> it that we "know" exactly what tools , what means , will get us to 
> this destination?

As I believe that there are absolute qualities of realities that can be 
observed, it's the only way to prove it to ourself whether or not something 
is what we think it is or not.  This doesn't mean that one can prove 
everything, but it means that the most important things will be provable.

I categorises my "faith" in Buddhism into three different categories: 1) 
faith arising because of the teaching's self-consistency, 2) faith arising 
because it makes sense to me based on my personal experiences/pre-
disposition, and 3) faith arising because the realities can be 
experienced/proven now.  If you call all these things as being pure faith, 
then so be it.

kom

 
5667 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ledi Sayadaw

 
  Hi, Dan -

In a message dated 6/17/01 2:35:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan writes:


> Hi Howard,
> Ledi Sayadaw was the teacher of your teacher's teacher. Smart guy.
> 
> Dan
> 
==========================
       Hmm, interesting! Thanks. Surprising, though - the monk whom I see is 
Thai, not Burmese. Of course, they are bordering countries, so it is 
understandable. (I would've talked to "my monk", Maha Wan, about the Sayadaw, 
but Maha Wan is currently in Thailand.) Thanks again for the info, Dan.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5668 From: Dan 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 0:05am
Subject: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  > I accept of course that we never come to know the *real* meaning of 
a
> discourse, even though we may sometimes talk in those terms.  

I don't think there is ONE real meaning. It seems that the discourses 
have meanings on several levels and that they were intended to have 
meanings on several levels. To choose the level at which you happen 
to be thinking of at a given time as THE meaning and that the other 
levels of meaning are WRONG is a danger.

> We can only
> ever hope to understand the teachings at the level we are currently
> capable of and not more.  We should not forget that that level is
> beginner's level (speaking for myself, anyway).

So the level you are thinking of is "beginner's level". Do people who 
do not have the depth of understanding that you have, then have NO 
understanding, not even a beginner's understanding and are therefore 
just plain wrong?

Dan

 
5669 From: Dan 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 0:14am
Subject: Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  > (I think in subsequent posts you have both indicated that while the
> practice of samatha is not regarded as absolutely essential, it is
> certainly a great influence for the better when it comes to 
insight.)

Again, Jon, I don't think you follow our argument (or mine, anyway). 
Samatha is NOT NECESSARILY a great influence for the better when it 
comes to insight, but it CAN BE a great influence.

> I have been looking at quite a few passages on the hindrances 
lately.  I
> have yet to come across anything that makes a connection between
> suppression of the hindrances by samatha and the development of
> satipatthana/arising of insight.  If you or Erik have anything 
along these
> lines I would be interested to see it.

Only the ones I posted earlier along with the logic that if the 
arising of hindrances weaken insight, then it makes sense that by the 
non-arising, insight may be strenghtened. Also, Buddha frequently 
speaks approvingly of development of samatha and even makes direct 
and explicit exhortations to his disciples to practice samatha (e.g. 
MN 152). Why practice? Because it feels good? I don't think so! 
Because it can be a tool for strengthening insight.

 
5670 From: Dan 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 0:17am
Subject: Re: seeing the danger of akusala

 
  Dear Nina,
You posts are a great addition to the group. I'm very grateful you 
are here.

Dan

--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> op 15-06-2001 20:37 schreef m. nease op "m. nease":> > 
> > --- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> > 
> >> It is sati, not self
> >> which realizes the danger of akusala.
> > 
> > Sati, not pa~n~naa?
> >
> Dear Mike, There are different levels of realizing the danger of 
akusala.
> Sati is non-forgetful of kusala, and it is heedful, it prevents 
akusala. As
> you can read in the "Expositor", sati searches well the courses of 
dhammas,
> advantageous and disadvantageous:-< these states are advantageous, 
those
> disadvantageous, these states are serviceable, those not 
serviceable>- and
> then removes the disadvatageous and takes up the advantageous>. In 
the
> Questions of King Milinda (Book II, under sati) sati is compared to 
a
> confidential adviser of the King, instructing him in good and 
evil:<These
> things are bad for the king and these good, these helpful and these 
are the
> reverse.> And thus the king makes the evil in himself die out, and 
keeps up
> the good.
> There can be the observing of sila without pa~n~naa. It is sati 
which keeps
> one from evil, it is non-forgetful, heedful. There are also other 
wholesome
> cetasikas which perform their task such as shame,hiri, which 
shrinks back
> from evil and fear of blame, ottappa, there is confidence in kusala,
> saddhaa, there are many other sobhana cetasikas, each performing 
their own
> function. In the case of abstaining from evil deeds, the cetasikas 
which are
> the abstentions (virati cetasikas) perform their functions. They 
all realize
> the danger of akusala, but each in their own way, performing their 
own
> function. 
> Khun Sujin gave once an example of someone who was about to speak 
an angry
> word, she had opened her mouth, but sati kept her from speaking and 
thus she
> did not speak. When I was at the very beginning to learn the Dhamma 
and
> speaking about abstaining from alcohol, Khun Sujin said:<It is not 
you who
> abstains, it is sati that keeps you from drinking>. This impressed 
me very
> much, I had not looked at it that that way.
> As I said, there are different levels of seeing the danger of 
akusala, sila
> can also be observed without pa~n~naa. Would one abstain from 
killing if one
> had not realized its danger and disadvantage? But pa~n~naa, 
understanding,
> clearly knows the characteristic of kusala and akusala, which can be
> intellectual understanding, considering. When it has been developed 
by
> satipatthana,it can be direct understanding of the true nature of 
kusala and
> akusala as non-self. Understanding can be developed so that it 
becomes
> lokuttara pa~n~naa, supramundane understanding which eradicates 
defilements
> stage by stage. It can become understanding which sees evermore the 
danger
> even of subtle clinging, and of moments without awareness. 
Understanding is
> the condition for the accompanying wholesome cetasikas to prevent 
the
> arising of akusala, to be heedful as to the six doorways. For 
example, hiri,
> shame, can shrink back also from more subtle defilements, it can be 
shame of
> moments of forgetfulness of nama and rupa.Thus, understanding is the
> condition for realizing ever more deeply the danger of akusala. It
> conditions all the accompanying cetasikas to be more effective in 
the
> performing of their tasks.
> It is amazing how all the cetasikas work together. If the Buddha 
had not
> taught this we would never have known, and considering this is 
Buddhanusati,
> a meditation subject of samatha in daily life. It can come very 
naturally.
> When we begin to be mindful of a nama or rupa, there can be 
Buddhanusati. I
> was very glad Robert reminded us in one of his posts about 
meditation
> subjects of samatha in daily life, such as Dhammanusati. He quoted 
from Khun
> Sujin's book Wholesome Deeds I had translated, and even when 
something I
> have translated has been quoted, it is again a special reminder for 
me. I am
> grateful for any reminder.
> Nina.

 
5671 From: Dan 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 0:21am
Subject: Re: Ledi Sayadaw

 
  >        Hmm, interesting! Thanks. Surprising, though - the monk whom 
I see is 
> Thai, not Burmese. Of course, they are bordering countries, so it 
is 
> understandable. (I would've talked to "my monk", Maha Wan, about 
the Sayadaw, 
> but Maha Wan is currently in Thailand.) Thanks again for the info, 
Dan.

I'm sorry, Howard. I was talking about Ledi => U Ba Khin => Goenka, 
mistakenly assuming you were a follower of Goenka. "Never assume 
anything!"

 
 
5672 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 8:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon]

 
  Hi, Jon (and Dan) -

In a message dated 6/17/01 8:58:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:

                                        <snip>

> I take your point here, Dan.  It does read as though I was suggesting
> that.
> 
> What I in fact was trying to indicate was that, according to this
> reasoning, insight is much more likely to arise, (or perhaps could only
> arise,) in close temporal proximity to the practice of samatha, or in one
> who regularly practices samatha, the reason being that at such times the
> hindrances are in a subdued state from the influence of the samatha.
> 
> (I think in subsequent posts you have both indicated that while the
> practice of samatha is not regarded as absolutely essential, it is
> certainly a great influence for the better when it comes to insight.)
> 
> I have been looking at quite a few passages on the hindrances lately.  I
> have yet to come across anything that makes a connection between
> suppression of the hindrances by samatha and the development of
> satipatthana/arising of insight.  If you or Erik have anything along these
> lines I would be interested to see it.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
=======================================
       I am appending five suttas obtained from the Access to insight site 
that have some bearing on this, I believe. I will comment a bit on the last 
two of these, which I take take to be the most definitive on this issue:


#1
Anguttara Nikaya II.29



Vijja-bhagiya Sutta



A Share in Clear Knowing

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity 
(samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what 
purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, 
what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, 
what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is 
developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned." 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----
#2


Anguttara Nikaya IV.170



Yuganaddha Sutta



In Tandem

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 
On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. 
There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. 
Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment 
of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of 
four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight 
preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, 
the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he 
follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, 
his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has 
developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity 
preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, 
pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the 
case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he 
develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows 
that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & 
pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. 
"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning 
the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes 
a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified 
& concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, 
pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or 
nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it 
by means of one or another of these four paths." 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3


Anguttara Nikaya IV.94



Samadhi Sutta



Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 
"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in world. 
Which four? "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal 
tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened 
discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained 
insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal 
tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has 
attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into 
phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the 
individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight 
into phenomena through heightened discernment. "The individual who has 
attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena 
through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has 
attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 
'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How 
should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he 
has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. 
Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen 
in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who 
has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena 
through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained 
insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal 
tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained 
internal tranquillity of awareness...and ask him, 'How should the mind be 
steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How 
should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has 
seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should 
be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. 
The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] 
will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & 
insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual 
who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into 
phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual 
who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into 
phenomena through heightened discernment...and ask him, 'How should the mind 
be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? 
How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How 
should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other 
will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be 
steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The 
mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this 
way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be 
investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with 
insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained 
both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through 
heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained both internal 
tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened 
discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those 
very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the 
(mental) fermentations. "These are four types of individuals to be found 
existing in world." 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#4



Samyutta Nikaya XII.23



Upanisa Sutta



Prerequisites

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. <A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html">Read an alternate translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi</A> 
Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who 
knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For 
one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is 
form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its 
origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its 
origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their 
origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its 
origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one 
who knows in this way & sees in this way. "The knowledge of ending in the 
presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a 
prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? 
Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is 
not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... 
Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are 
present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... 
Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... 
Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... 
Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are 
not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance, it 
should be said. "Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite,
consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite,
name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite,
the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite,
contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite,
feeling has contact as its prerequisite,
craving has feeling as its prerequisite,
clinging has craving as its prerequisite,
becoming has clinging as its prerequisite,
birth has becoming as its prerequisite,
stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite,
conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite,
joy has conviction as its prerequisite,
rapture has joy as its prerequisite,
serenity has rapture as its prerequisite,
pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite,
concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite,
knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration 
as its prerequisite,
disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present 
as its prerequisite,
dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite,
release has dispassion as its prerequisite,
knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite. "Just as when the gods 
pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, 
flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. 
When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little 
ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big 
lakes are full, they fill the little rivers. When the little rivers are full, 
they fill the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great 
ocean. In the same way: "Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite,
consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite,
name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite,
the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite,
contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite,
feeling has contact as its prerequisite,
craving has feeling as its prerequisite,
clinging has craving as its prerequisite,
becoming has clinging as its prerequisite,
birth has becoming as its prerequisite,
stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite,
conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite,
joy has conviction as its prerequisite,
rapture has joy as its prerequisite,
serenity has rapture as its prerequisite,
pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite,
concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite,
knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration 
as its prerequisite,
disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present 
as its prerequisite,
dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite,
release has dispassion as its prerequisite,
knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite." 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Note that in the Upanisa Sutta it is said that "knowledge & vision of 
things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite" 
and that "concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite". Assuming that the 
word 'prerequisite' is the correct translation of the Pali, this strikes me 
as rather definitive. 
      I also obtained the following from the Access to Insight site:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------
#5

       When gold is debased by these five impurities, it is not pliant, 
malleable, or luminous. It is brittle and not ready to be worked. Which five? 
Iron, copper, tin, lead, & silver...But when gold is not debased by these 
five impurities, it is pliant, malleable, & luminous. It is not brittle and 
is ready to be worked. Then whatever sort of ornament one has in mind -- 
whether a belt, an earring, a necklace, or a gold chain -- it would serve 
one's purpose. In the same way, when the mind is debased by these five 
impurities, it is not pliant, malleable, or luminous. It is brittle and not 
rightly concentrated for the ending of the effluents. Which five? Sensual 
desire, ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and 
uncertainty...But when the mind is not debased by these five impurities, it 
is pliant, malleable, & luminous. It is not brittle and is rightly 
concentrated for the ending of the effluents. Then whichever of the six 
higher knowledges [<A HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/2d.html#64">�64</A>] one turns one's mind to know & realize, one can 
witness 
> -- A.V.23 
> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------
       Now, this last material points out that the hindrances are hindrances 
to concentration. The previous material of the Upanisa Sutta points out the 
prerequisite status of samatha for vipassana. Together, I think these may 
provide an answer to this issue.
 

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5673 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ledi Sayadaw

 
  Hi, Dan -

In a message dated 6/17/01 12:51:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan writes:


> >        Hmm, interesting! Thanks. Surprising, though - the monk whom 
> I see is 
> > Thai, not Burmese. Of course, they are bordering countries, so it 
> is 
> > understandable. (I would've talked to "my monk", Maha Wan, about 
> the Sayadaw, 
> > but Maha Wan is currently in Thailand.) Thanks again for the info, 
> Dan.
> 
> I'm sorry, Howard. I was talking about Ledi => U Ba Khin => Goenka, 
> mistakenly assuming you were a follower of Goenka. "Never assume 
> anything!"
> 
=============================
       Ahh! I understand. Well, yes, I *did* attend a 10-day Goenka retreat, 
and in that sense one could say that he is "my teacher". So you were not 
wrong. 
       I guess I have many teachers. The one I fully rely on is the Buddha, 
as seen through the tipitaka, and also through the eyes of all those 
teachers, ancient and modern - mainly, but not exclusively, Theravadin - 
whose explanations seem to be clearest and most helpful to me at any given 
time. (And what is clearest and most helpful to me changes with changing 
conditions.)

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5674 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 4:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] seeing the danger of akusala

 
  Dear Nina,

Far too many excellent points to reply to at once.  An
especially interesting point that sati can prevent
akusala even without pa��aa--like so many of your
points, it seems obvious AFTER you've pointed it out. 


I don't have The Expositor or The Questions, but can
see how valuable they must be in shedding light on the
meanings of the discourses.

I'll be reading this post many more times and will
probably respond again later.

Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed and
illuminating response.

mike


 
5675 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:49am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Qu estions)

 
  Is this Phra Yantra = Phra Ajahn Yantra ? If so, can anyone tell me the
length of the scandal... didn't caught wind of it ... thanks

Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 16, 2001 9:45 PM
> Subject:	Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Revealing the defilements (was Re:
> Fwd: Questions)
> 
> That article mildy surprised me. I tell you Erik, things have
> changed in the last few years in thailand.  I am not referring
> to these rituals but rather that the monks who do them are now
> being critised. After the scandal with Phra yantra (who was once
> thought to an arahant) it seems like Thais are now realising
> that arahants are not as common as some believed.
> I have been to the temple in Khon khaen where lungpoor Khoon
> stays (saw him ). It is in the middle of a vast desolate plain
> with scant houses but is the most beautiful temple I've ever
> seen. Really nice but ven. khoon is a promoter of amulets etc.
> What is more surprising is that Phra mahabua is being critised
> in a national paper - he used to be held sacred.
> robert 
> --- Erik wrote:
> > --- Dan wrote:
> > 
> > > I still think a chase for THE real meaning of the discourses
> > is 
> > risky 
> > > because it the natural outcome is an attitude of "This is
> > the only 
> > > right way. All other ways are wrong"--something we must be
> > on guard 
> > > against at all times.
> > 
> > In keeping with the Four Ties (from the Abhidhammattha 
> > Sangaha): "(iv) There are four (bodily) Ties (5): 1.
> > Covetousness, 2. 
> > Ill will, 3. Adherence to rites and ceremonies, 4. Dogmatic
> > belief 
> > that 'this alone is truth'."
> > 
> > Speaking of #3 (for our Thai contingent here), I got a big
> > kick out 
> > of this article:
> > 
> > http://www.bangkokpost.com/newindex/today/160601_news03.html
> > 

 
5676 From: B.Kassapa 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 6:07pm
Subject: Re: seeing the danger of akusala

 
  Please excuse me, but are you the same person that has a book 
published on Dhamma Study Group web site, this is my reply to a Mrs 
Amara on Dhamma List.

Amara
I think there is nothing new in Nina Van Gorkom's new book, except 
for the fact that she has extracted most of her work from many 
Buddhists sites including Nibana.com. Please advise Ms Gorkom of this 
fact and I hope Lawsuits don't follow from the offended parties. It 
is not advisable to publish new books on Buddhism, as personal views 
tend to distort actual Buddhist practices by oversimplifying them. It 
is better to study the Dhamma than trying to show everybody what a 
cleaver Buddhist you are by writing a Book about something you know 
nothing about, you go about it just by taking the facts form others. 
It is not something we should be proud of.

Metta
B.Kassapa


--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> op 15-06-2001 20:37 schreef m. nease op "m. nease":
> > 
> > --- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> > 
> >> It is sati, not self
> >> which realizes the danger of akusala.
> > 
> > Sati, not pa~n~naa?
> >
> Dear Mike, There are different levels of realizing the danger of 
akusala.
> Sati is non-forgetful of kusala, and it is heedful, it prevents 
akusala. As
> you can read in the "Expositor", sati searches well the courses of 
dhammas,
> advantageous and disadvantageous:-< these states are advantageous, 
those
> disadvantageous, these states are serviceable, those not 
serviceable>- and
> then removes the disadvatageous and takes up the advantageous>. In 
the
> Questions of King Milinda (Book II, under sati) sati is compared to 
a
> confidential adviser of the King, instructing him in good and 
evil:<These
> things are bad for the king and these good, these helpful and these 
are the
> reverse.> And thus the king makes the evil in himself die out, and 
keeps up
> the good.
> There can be the observing of sila without pa~n~naa. It is sati 
which keeps
> one from evil, it is non-forgetful, heedful. There are also other 
wholesome
> cetasikas which perform their task such as shame,hiri, which 
shrinks back
> from evil and fear of blame, ottappa, there is confidence in kusala,
> saddhaa, there are many other sobhana cetasikas, each performing 
their own
> function. In the case of abstaining from evil deeds, the cetasikas 
which are
> the abstentions (virati cetasikas) perform their functions. They 
all realize
> the danger of akusala, but each in their own way, performing their 
own
> function. 
> Khun Sujin gave once an example of someone who was about to speak 
an angry
> word, she had opened her mouth, but sati kept her from speaking and 
thus she
> did not speak. When I was at the very beginning to learn the Dhamma 
and
> speaking about abstaining from alcohol, Khun Sujin said:<It is not 
you who
> abstains, it is sati that keeps you from drinking>. This impressed 
me very
> much, I had not looked at it that that way.
> As I said, there are different levels of seeing the danger of 
akusala, sila
> can also be observed without pa~n~naa. Would one abstain from 
killing if one
> had not realized its danger and disadvantage? But pa~n~naa, 
understanding,
> clearly knows the characteristic of kusala and akusala, which can be
> intellectual understanding, considering. When it has been developed 
by
> satipatthana,it can be direct understanding of the true nature of 
kusala and
> akusala as non-self. Understanding can be developed so that it 
becomes
> lokuttara pa~n~naa, supramundane understanding which eradicates 
defilements
> stage by stage. It can become understanding which sees evermore the 
danger
> even of subtle clinging, and of moments without awareness. 
Understanding is
> the condition for the accompanying wholesome cetasikas to prevent 
the
> arising of akusala, to be heedful as to the six doorways. For 
example, hiri,
> shame, can shrink back also from more subtle defilements, it can be 
shame of
> moments of forgetfulness of nama and rupa.Thus, understanding is the
> condition for realizing ever more deeply the danger of akusala. It
> conditions all the accompanying cetasikas to be more effective in 
the
> performing of their tasks.
> It is amazing how all the cetasikas work together. If the Buddha 
had not
> taught this we would never have known, and considering this is 
Buddhanusati,
> a meditation subject of samatha in daily life. It can come very 
naturally.
> When we begin to be mindful of a nama or rupa, there can be 
Buddhanusati. I
> was very glad Robert reminded us in one of his posts about 
meditation
> subjects of samatha in daily life, such as Dhammanusati. He quoted 
from Khun
> Sujin's book Wholesome Deeds I had translated, and even when 
something I
> have translated has been quoted, it is again a special reminder for 
me. I am
> grateful for any reminder.
> Nina.

 
5677 From: robert 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 6:26pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: New Page

 
  ---  Robert wrote:
--- 
Dear B. Kassapa,
Welcome to the forum (I think this is your first post?). It is 
pleasing to see your concern over distortions creeping into the 
sublime Dhamma. 
Have you read all of Cetasikas? It is a 400 page book and was only 
put on the web today - but perhaps you read it in its print version 
which has been out since the beginning of 1999. I had a manuscript 
copy since 1990, before the internet began, so I think it was not 
plagiarised from Nibbana.com. Her first book was published in the 
1960's.
 You might have read the book Concepts and Realities on Nibbana.com 
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/sujin3.htm ,
which is one by Nina's teacher, Sujin Boriharnwanaket. Nina actually 
did the translation(although it is not mentioned on  the web) so her 
style of writing may seem familiar to you.
I think Nina will be pleased that you find nothing new in her book. 
She is very careful to follow the letter and meaning of the Dhamma - 
although she does relate it to our daily life. Thus her writings 
include so many quotes from the Tipitaka and as you say there is 
nothing new in this. Nina said to me once that the Dhamma is not hers 
or mine or anyone's - it is the way things are, exactly as the 
SammasamBuddha described, he left it for us to study.
robert

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=014202113112099031171098203004129208071 wrote:
> Amara
> I think there is nothing new in Nina Van Gorkom's new book, except 
> for the fact that she has extracted most of her work from many 
> Buddhists sites including Nibana.com. Please advise Ms Gorkom of 
this 
> fact and I hope Lawsuits don't follow from the offended parties. It 
> is not advisable for Laypersons to publish new books on Buddhism, 
as 
> personal views tend to distort actual Buddhist practices by 
> oversimplifying them. It is better to study the Dhamma. 
> metta 
> B.Kassapa
> 
> ---  "Amara"  wrote:
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > We are uploading Nina van Gorkom's book 'Cetasikas' to the 
> > intermediate section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , do take a 
> look 
> > if you have time!  Comments will be much appreciated, 
> > 
> > Enjoy,
> > 
> > Amara
--- End forwarded message ---

 
5678 From: Moderators 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Moderators' message (was: Re: seeing the danger of akusala)

 
  Dear B.Kassapa

Please note that the guidelines for members of this list do not 
allow messages of this tone or content.  If in doubt, please check 
the guidelines at the group's homepage at: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Dham
maStudyGroup%20Guidelines.htm

Jon & Sarah Abbott

--- B.Kassapa wrote:
> Please excuse me, but are you the same person that has a 
book 
> published on Dhamma Study Group web site, this is my reply 
to a Mrs 
> Amara on Dhamma List.
> 
> Amara
> I think there is nothing new in Nina Van Gorkom's new book, 
except 
> for the fact that she has extracted most of her work from many 
> Buddhists sites including Nibana.com. Please advise Ms 
Gorkom of this 
> fact and I hope Lawsuits don't follow from the offended parties. 
It 
> is not advisable to publish new books on Buddhism, as 
personal views 
> tend to distort actual Buddhist practices by oversimplifying 
them. It 
> is better to study the Dhamma than trying to show everybody 
what a 
> cleaver Buddhist you are by writing a Book about something 
you know 
> nothing about, you go about it just by taking the facts form 
others. 
> It is not something we should be proud of.
> 
> Metta
> B.Kassapa

 
5679 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: seeing the danger of akusala

 
  Dear B.,

Welcome to dsg.  Amara, Nina, B. Kassapa, Mike,
Nibana.com, lawsuits, laypersons--all just concepts
without substance, pa��ati--devoid of any of the
foundations of mindfulness.  A false accusation is
akusala and will have akusala results.  What  dhammas
condition such speech (or any speech)?  These dhammas
may be known and may be the basis for the arising of
understanding--pa��ati can't (though some of the
conditions even for pa��ati can).  Even without
understanding, mindfulness can prevent wrong speech
(and its unfortunate results).

Best Wishes,

mike


 
5680 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Fw: Cetasikas

 
  Dear members,

Amara asked me to forward the following announcement to this list.

Jim

>Dear friends,
>
>We are uploading Nina van Gorkom's book 'Cetasikas' to the intermediate
>section of <http://www.dhammastudy.com/> , do take a look if you have time!
>Comments will be much appreciated,
>
>Enjoy,
>
>Amara
>
>



 
5681 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: New Page

 
  --- robert wrote: 
> Have you read all of Cetasikas? It is a 400 page book and was only 
> put on the web today - but perhaps you read it in its print version 
> which has been out since the beginning of 1999. I had a manuscript 
> copy since 1990, before the internet began, so I think it was not 
> plagiarised from Nibbana.com. Her first book was published in the 
> 1960's.


........many of us started receiving manuscipt copies of 'Cetasikas' in the
late 70s and indeed we bound and distributed these worldwide for many years at
that time......

This is truly one of the most useful books I have and I'm delighted anyone has
web access now.

Sarah


 
5682 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:37pm
Subject: Joining Realities into a "Whole" (From 'Cetasikas')

 
  Hi, Nina (and all) -

         I have started reading (and thoroughly enjoying) 'Cetasikas'. In the 
introduction, you write the following:

Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise and fall away extremely rapidly. 
When right understanding has not been developed we cannot distinguish between 
different objects experienced through the different doorways. We are inclined 
to join different realities together into a 'whole", and thus we cannot 
realize their arising and falling away, their impermanence, and their nature 
of non-self. 

         I am trying to understand *where* the attempted joining of different 
realities occurs. If cittas truly occur as separate, discrete states, then it 
would seem that such a "joining" would have to occur within a single citta, 
in which case it is a processing of *memories* of preceding cittas and their 
cetasikas. Is this so?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         





 
5683 From: Dan 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:46am
Subject: Question

 
  Q: What happens when a Buddhist becomes totally absorbed with the 
computer he is working with?
A: He enters Nerdvana.

 
5684 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 5:33am
Subject: Re: Question

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> Q: What happens when a Buddhist becomes totally absorbed with the 
> computer he is working with?
> A: He enters Nerdvana.

I thought that was the name of a techno-trance-grunge band out of 
Redmond.

 
5685 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott  <Moderators> 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 6:12am
Subject: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Tom wrote: 
> Subject: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup 

> 
> Thank you. I used to practise TM (transcendental
> meditation). Their
> newsgroups are really kind of frightening. I began
> the practice of Zen about
> 20 years ago and moved about 8 years later into
> Theravada studies. I am also
> interested in Tibetan Buddhism, but so far haven't
> made any arrangements
> with any of the local Lamas.
> 
> Thank you so much for this newsgroup.
> 
> Tom.




 
5686 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 6:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Dear Tom,

Tom wrote: 
> > Subject: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup 
> 
> > 
> > Thank you. I used to practise TM (transcendental
> > meditation). Their
> > newsgroups are really kind of frightening. I began
> > the practice of Zen about
> > 20 years ago and moved about 8 years later into
> > Theravada studies. I am also
> > interested in Tibetan Buddhism, but so far haven't
> > made any arrangements
> > with any of the local Lamas.
> > 
> > Thank you so much for this newsgroup.

Thank you for your message and you're very welcome here!

That's interesting about the TM newsgroups..do hope this never becomes
'frightening'! You're in good company here with others who have also studied
and practised Zen for many years and also Tibetan Budddhism.

Looking forward to hearing more from you. Where do you live?

Best wishes and thanks,
Sarah


 
 
5687 From: Tom Anderson  <Tom 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:37am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Thank you for your message and you're very welcome here!

That's interesting about the TM newsgroups..do hope this never becomes
'frightening'! 
	I doubt it will. It is just one of the side-effects of TM, I think.
You're in good company here with others who have also studied
and practised Zen for many years and also Tibetan Budddhism.

Looking forward to hearing more from you. Where do you live?
TORONTO

Best wishes and thanks,
Sarah

 
5688 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:17am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ? Or others ?

Thanks,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tom Anderson 
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 19, 2001 7:37 AM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup 
> 
> Thank you for your message and you're very welcome here!
> 
> That's interesting about the TM newsgroups..do hope this never becomes
> 'frightening'! 
> 	I doubt it will. It is just one of the side-effects of TM, I think.
> You're in good company here with others who have also studied
> and practised Zen for many years and also Tibetan Budddhism.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing more from you. Where do you live?
> TORONTO
> 
> Best wishes and thanks,
> Sarah
> 

 
5689 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:04am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dan

--- Dan wrote: > > (I think in subsequent posts you
have both indicated that while the
> > practice of samatha is not regarded as absolutely essential, it is
> > certainly a great influence for the better when it comes to 
> insight.)
> 
> Again, Jon, I don't think you follow our argument (or mine, anyway). 
> Samatha is NOT NECESSARILY a great influence for the better when it 
> comes to insight, but it CAN BE a great influence.

This was actually how I read you - the practice of samatha can be a great
influence for the better when it comes to insight, because it moderates
the hindrances.  Thanks for articulating the point with more particularity
than I had.

> > I have been looking at quite a few passages on the hindrances 
> lately.  I
> > have yet to come across anything that makes a connection between
> > suppression of the hindrances by samatha and the development of
> > satipatthana/arising of insight.  If you or Erik have anything 
> along these
> > lines I would be interested to see it.
> 
> Only the ones I posted earlier along with the logic that if the 
> arising of hindrances weaken insight, then it makes sense that by the 
> non-arising, insight may be strenghtened. Also, Buddha frequently 
> speaks approvingly of development of samatha and even makes direct 
> and explicit exhortations to his disciples to practice samatha (e.g. 
> MN 152). Why practice? Because it feels good? I don't think so! 
> Because it can be a tool for strengthening insight.

I of course agree that the Buddha always spoke highly approvingly of the
development of samatha, and at times exhorted this particular form of
kusala.

I question only the further connection that is frequently made between
this and satipatthana, namely that for one who sees the importance of
satipatthana the practice of samatha will help subdue the hindrances and
this can be a great influence for the better in terms of the satipatthana.
 I do not find this connection explicitly stated in the suttas,
commentaries or abhidhamma, and it contradicts my understanding of the
conditions for the arising of satipatthana (as found in the texts) --
these do not in my view include the suppression of the hindrances that
comes with the development of samatha (yes, even though the hindrances are
said to 'weaken insight').

Dan, I hope this clarifies my supposed 'anti-samatha' position.

Jon


 
5690 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 3:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Howard

Thanks for coming in with these interesting sutta references and comments.

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Dan) -
> 
> In a message dated 6/17/01 8:58:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jonothan Abbott writes:

> > What I in fact was trying to indicate was that, according to this
> > reasoning, insight is much more likely to arise, (or perhaps could
> only
> > arise,) in close temporal proximity to the practice of samatha, or in
> one
> > who regularly practices samatha, the reason being that at such times
> the
> > hindrances are in a subdued state from the influence of the samatha.

> > I have been looking at quite a few passages on the hindrances lately. 
> I
> > have yet to come across anything that makes a connection between
> > suppression of the hindrances by samatha and the development of
> > satipatthana/arising of insight.  If you or Erik have anything along
> these
> > lines I would be interested to see it.

> =======================================
>        I am appending five suttas obtained from the Access to insight
> site 
> that have some bearing on this, I believe. I will comment a bit on the
> last 
> two of these, which I take take to be the most definitive on this issue:

I am not able to comment in detail right now, but hope to do so later.  On
a quick reading, I must say I do not find the passages particularly useful
in understanding the extent to which if at all the suppression of the
hindrances by samatha is or can be of direct use as far as satipatthana is
concerned.  But perhaps further reading will help clarify this.

> #1
> Anguttara Nikaya II.29
> Vijja-bhagiya Sutta
> A Share in Clear Knowing
> 
> #2
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> Yuganaddha Sutta
> In Tandem
> 
>
> #3
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.94
> Samadhi Sutta
> Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)

> #4
> Samyutta Nikaya XII.23
> Upanisa Sutta
> Prerequisites
> Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one
�
> knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite." 

>        Note that in the Upanisa Sutta it is said that "knowledge &
> vision of 
> things as they actually are present has concentration as its
> prerequisite" 
> and that "concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite". Assuming that
> the 
> word 'prerequisite' is the correct translation of the Pali, this strikes
> me 
> as rather definitive. 

See my comments below.

>       I also obtained the following from the Access to Insight site:
> #5
>        When gold is debased by these five impurities, it is not pliant, 
�
> concentrated for the ending of the effluents. Then whichever of the six 
> higher knowledges [<A
> > -- A.V.23 
> > 

>        Now, this last material points out that the hindrances are
> hindrances 
> to concentration.

Agreed.

 The previous material of the Upanisa Sutta points out
> the 
> prerequisite status of samatha for vipassana

This point I need to consider.  I am wondering if you are perhaps equating
concentration with samatha.  The 2 are not always used synonymously
(although sometimes they are).  Concentration is the normal translation
for samadhi, the cetasika that is one of the Universals.  Samatha is
usually translated as tranquillity, calmness or the like, since that is
its distinguishing feature.  Of course, it is developed by concentration
on an appropriate subject (kammatthana), but it is a particular kind of
development of concentration, accompanied by panna and leading to the
tranquillity that comes from being temporarily freed from kilesa.

References to concentration are sometimes references to concentration of
the particular kind that accompanies panna of the level of vipassana. 
This is possibly how your last reference is to be read (concentration that
is �for the ending of the effluents�).

I will see if my translation has any useful commentary on the Upanisa
Sutta and report back.  Thanks for the material to consider.

Jon


 
5691 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dear howard and jon,
Could I quote a sutta which may have bearing on your
conversation>
> > 
> >       HOward:  Now, this last material points out that the
> hindrances are
> > hindrances 
> > to concentration.

> JON:Agreed.
> 
>  Howard: The previous material of the Upanisa Sutta points out
> > the 
> > prerequisite status of samatha for vipassana
_____
> 
Jon:  This point I need to consider.  I am wondering if you are
> perhaps equating
> concentration with samatha.  The 2 are not always used
> synonymously
> (although sometimes they are).  Concentration is the normal
> translation
> for samadhi, the cetasika that is one of the Universals. 
> Samatha is
> usually translated as tranquillity, calmness or the like,
> since that is
> its distinguishing feature.  Of course, it is developed by
> concentration
> on an appropriate subject (kammatthana), but it is a
> particular kind of
> development of concentration, accompanied by panna and leading
> to the
> tranquillity that comes from being temporarily freed from
> kilesa.
> 
> References to concentration are sometimes references to
> concentration of
> the particular kind that accompanies panna of the level of
> vipassana. 
> This is possibly how your last reference is to be read
> (concentration that
> is �for the ending of the effluents�).
_______________________________________________
I think Jon has explained this correctly. Here is the samadhi
sutta. Note the different types of concentration. (the 3rd type
is that associated with satipatthana and the last type with
advanced stages of vipassana)
Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
Samadhi Sutta
Concentration


----------------------------------------------------------------
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which
four? There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now. There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is
the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued,
leads to the ending of the effluents. 

1."And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from
withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With
the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters &
remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of
composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought &
evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he
remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive
to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which
the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a
pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain --
as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he
enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development
of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a
pleasant abiding in the here & now. 

2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception
of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any
hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is
the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he
develops a brightened mind. This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
attainment of knowledge & vision. 

3."And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is
the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
mindfulness & alertness. 

4."And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There
is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling
away with reference to the five aggregates for
sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such
its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such
its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such
its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination,
such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
ending of the effluents. 

"These are the four developments of concentration. 

"And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's
Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn V.3]: 

'He who has fathomed
the far & near in the world,
for whom there is nothing
perturbing in the world -- 
    his vices evaporated,
    undesiring, untroubled,
        at peace -- 
he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
            aging.'" 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




 
5692 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Rob and Howard

Thanks for this very pertinent sutta, Rob.

It also brings out another point about your post, Howard.  Reference to
'knowledge and vision', as in the Upanisa Sutta, is often a reference to a
level of samatha, rather than the vipassana it sounds so much like.  This
can be a trap for the casual reader.

In the 2nd of the 4 types of concentration in the Samadhi Sutta quoted
below, the reference is I think to samatha (subject to checking the
commentary!).

Jon

--- Robert Kirkpatrick  wrote: > Dear
howard and jon,
> Could I quote a sutta which may have bearing on your
> conversation>
.....
. Here is the samadhi
> sutta. Note the different types of concentration. (the 3rd type
> is that associated with satipatthana and the last type with
> advanced stages of vipassana)
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
> Samadhi Sutta
> Concentration
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which
> four? There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is
> the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued,
> leads to the ending of the effluents. 
> 
> 1."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
> sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
> remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from
> withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With
> the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters &
> remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of
> composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought &
> evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he
> remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive
> to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which
> the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a
> pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain --
> as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he
> enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
> mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development
> of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a
> pleasant abiding in the here & now. 
> 
> 2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception
> of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any
> hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is
> the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he
> develops a brightened mind. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> attainment of knowledge & vision. 
> 
> 3."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is
> the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
> known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
> known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
> subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
> persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
> mindfulness & alertness. 
> 
> 4."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There
> is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling
> away with reference to the five aggregates for
> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination,
> such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
> origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> ending of the effluents. 
> 
> "These are the four developments of concentration. 
> 
> "And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's
> Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn V.3]: 
> 
> 'He who has fathomed
> the far & near0in the world,
> for whom there is nothing
> perturbing in the world -- 
>     his vices evaporated,
>     undesiring, untroubled,
>         at peace -- 
> he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
>             aging.'" 
> 




 
5693 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  TM (transcendental meditation) is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's way of 
bilking folks out of both trust and money. TM is a mantra meditation. 
One thinks the mantra as easily as any other thought: the result is, 
like samatha, a sense of quietness, at which point, one comes back to 
the mantra at that quieter sense of thought. 

Trouble is, this leads to a very dissociated mental condition, a 
spacey feeling, a slight disorientation, a dreamy kind of approach to 
what others consider ordinary reality. (A safer form is Dr. Benson's 
Relaxation Response; but the dissociative tendency is still a part of 
the problem.) 

There are several sites that take a very critical look at TM. I can 
post them if you are interested. Initially, TM feels good and seems 
to be quite helpful, but one is increasingly drawn (by these 
feelings) into a desire for more involvement. [Hence, into greater 
dissociation from the concerns of life and concerns for others.]

Maharishi has turned this into a $3+billion enterprise! Presently, he 
is trying to establish his own soverign nation in a poor South 
American country. 

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ? Or 
others ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Loke CL
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Tom Anderson > > Sent:	Tuesday, June 19, 2001 7:37 AM
> > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to 
dhammastudygroup 
> > 
> > Thank you for your message and you're very welcome here!
> > 
> > That's interesting about the TM newsgroups..do hope this never 
becomes
> > 'frightening'! 
> > 	I doubt it will. It is just one of the side-effects of TM, I 
think.
> > You're in good company here with others who have also studied
> > and practised Zen for many years and also Tibetan Budddhism.
> > 
> > Looking forward to hearing more from you. Where do you live?
> > TORONTO
> > 
> > Best wishes and thanks,
> > Sarah
> >

 
5694 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Very interesting, Tom. There are many types of concentration
meditation and it seems to me that it is not so hard to develop
wrong concentration(which comes with pleasant or neutral
feeling) - but which is attached to the object of meditation.
This can appear as genuine detachment because the old objects of
attachment - family, career etc. - now seem less important than
this new practice. 
I think this can also happen with Buddhist practice,and so it
takes  real inquiry to distinguish right from wrong; but I feel
you know this already.
thanks
robert 


--- <> wrote:
> TM (transcendental meditation) is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's way
> of 
> bilking folks out of both trust and money. TM is a mantra
> meditation. 
> One thinks the mantra as easily as any other thought: the
> result is, 
> like samatha, a sense of quietness, at which point, one comes
> back to 
> the mantra at that quieter sense of thought. 
> 
> Trouble is, this leads to a very dissociated mental condition,
> a 
> spacey feeling, a slight disorientation, a dreamy kind of
> approach to 
> what others consider ordinary reality. (A safer form is Dr.
> Benson's 
> Relaxation Response; but the dissociative tendency is still a
> part of 
> the problem.) 
> 
> There are several sites that take a very critical look at TM.
> I can 
> post them if you are interested. Initially, TM feels good and
> seems 
> to be quite helpful, but one is increasingly drawn (by these 
> feelings) into a desire for more involvement. [Hence, into
> greater 
> dissociation from the concerns of life and concerns for
> others.]
> 
> Maharishi has turned this into a $3+billion enterprise!
> Presently, he 
> is trying to establish his own soverign nation in a poor South
> 
> American country. 
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ?
> Or 
> others ?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Loke CL
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Tom Anderson > > > Sent:	Tuesday, June 19, 2001 7:37 AM
> > > > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to 
> dhammastudygroup 
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your message and you're very welcome here!
> > > 
> > > That's interesting about the TM newsgroups..do hope this
> never 
> becomes
> > > 'frightening'! 
> > > 	I doubt it will. It is just one of the side-effects of
> TM, I 
> think.
> > > You're in good company here with others who have also
> studied
> > > and practised Zen for many years and also Tibetan
> Budddhism.
> > > 
> > > Looking forward to hearing more from you. Where do you
> live?
> > > TORONTO
> > > 
> > > Best wishes and thanks,
> > > Sarah


 
5695 From: Herman 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:30pm
Subject: Re: In my opinion

 
  Dear Kom,

Thank you, as always, for the time you have taken to provide further 
food for thought.

--- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Herman,
> 
> --- Herman wrote:
> > > Do you believe in conditions, and the result of those 
conditions?  
> > Do you 
> > > *know* as it really is that in order for a dhamma to arise, 
there 
> > *must* be 
> > > condition for it to arise?   K. Sujin has mentioned that 
rebirth 
> > may be 
> > > absolutely provable at one's death.
> > 
> > Yes, I believe in conditions, and the results of those 
conditions, 
> > and that all dhammas arise because of conditions. I also believe 
the 
> > conditions are unknowable, meaning neither causes or results can 
be 
> > fully known. Play a game of chess, and try and predict what the 
board 
> 
> Are they truly unknowable even at the intellectual understanding?  
We 
> hear that in order to see, there must be the following conditions:
> 1) Eyesense - you can't see if you are blind
> 2) Consciousness - you can't see if you are asleep
> 3) Something to see
> 4) Enough light
> 

You bring up very interesting and very relevant points, Kom.

At a real level, there is no doubt about anything. There is no doubt 
about seeing, hearing, smelling, bodily sensation, thinking etc. 
Words, concepts are not required at this level.

But at the conceptual level, doubt beckons everywhere. If I reduce 
the refresh rate on my video card to around 50 Hz, there is a slight 
flicker in my peripheral vision. I do not doubt the flickering. It is 
real. Conceptually it means that there are 50 new images drawn on my 
monitor every second, and there is a very small, vague awareness of 
change in my case when this happens. I do not know this, but accept 
(believe, have faith) that this is so. To me it means that the 
apparatus of vision in my case is able to discern changes at about 
1/50th of a second. 

Some things which I read on forums such as these, suggest to me that 
it ought to be possible to be aware of each refresh of the screen as 
it happens, awareness of each moment as it happens. This is a matter 
of grave doubt for me.

When I strike the middle A on my piano, I hear a sound. No doubt 
there. Conceptually, this note is actually a vibration, vibrating at 
440 cycles a second. 440 rarefactions and condensations per second. 
But all I hear is a constant sound at a particular pitch. Again, 
sometimes I read things here that make me believe that it ought to be 
possible to hear the reality as it is conceived, 440 rarefactions and 
condensations per second . Again, grave doubt.

Is it all my stored akusala, or ignorance, or fetters, or hindrances, 
or cankers, that prevents me from hearing 440 cycles, seeing 50 
refreshes. Or is there such a thing as a biological limit?

I hope to .... (oops, nearly said God :-)) that to be enlightened 
doesn't mean I can no longer hear Bach, but must hear cycles of 
rarefactions and condensations.

> Without those, seeing doesn't occur.  I think many (although not 
all, 
> certainly not for me!) conditions can't be thought of in this 
particular 
> manner.  For example, the grasping to the 5 sense objects---visible 
object, 
> sound, taste, smell, tactile objects---can only occur if there are 
contact of 
> the mind and the sense objects, and also the feelings that co-arise 
with 
> such experiences.   
> 
> Are these causes-results purely just faith for you or does it make 
sense for 
> you as well?  I have faith that at some level along the path, that 
some of 
> these elementary (not all that is taught) relationship will turn 
into "this is 
> proven for me" because of direct experiences.  My confidence in the 
> teaching increases ever so slightly each time I notice (not even at 
the 
> satipathana level) something that match the teachings.

My fiancee works in a centre where seriously injured people are 
rehabilitated. One of the common anguishes of amputees is phantom 
pain. They feel pain in limbs they do not have, when there is no rupa 
within cooee. Touch a totally unrelated part of their body, and they 
feel it in their phantom limb. This suggests to me that bodily sense 
cannot be realised by anyone, it all happens in the mind/brain. When 
I am aware of seeing, hearing, feeling (bodily sense) tasting and 
thinking the reality that it reflects has already expired. The 
present moment is a concept, a matter of faith, and thus subject to 
doubt. Awareness is the realisation that there is no present moment 
to know.
Seeing, hearing, tasting etc is real, the present moment is a memory.

> 
> > will look like after one, two, three moves. Or try and determine 
the 
> > moves that caused the current state of the board. Impossible. 
With 
> > such a simple state of affairs , 2 players with sixteen or fewer 
> > pieces each you need to cover billions of permutations. How much 
more 
> > complex is this present reality, with infinite causes which are 
the 
> > result of infinite causes which are the result of infinite causes.
> 
> As far as the 24 conditions expounded in Abhidhamma, I would 
certainly 
> agree with you.  As I understand how realities condition one 
another, how 
> one reality (such as panna) arises is enormously complex that it 
may 
> appear to somebody as being very close to random.  I don't think 
even if 
> we become enlightened that these conditions will be fully known---I 
have 
> heard this is in the realm of the Buddha's panna only.
> 
> On the other hand, if you agree with me in some of the points made 
> above, we would both agree that things don't just arise in a random 
> fashion.  There must be specific causes in order to have specific 
effects.  
> It just happens that the Buddha indicates that kamma is one of 
these 
> causes in many phenomenons, even if it is not absolutely proveable 
to you 
> and I yet.

I read in some suttas (I'm sorry I cannot quote the source, if you 
disagree that this is really based on a sutta, I will happily retract)
that to be born beautiful/handsome, wealthy, healthy, would be the 
result of good deeds in previous lives. This tends to create the 
illusion that beauty is an absolute thing, but I am here to tell you 
that what is admired in one culture is derided in another. Some 
cultures take pride in frugality , while others are ostentatious to 
the max. Wealth is a very subjective matter. To me these suttas re 
kamma reinforce indiscriminate stereotypes, not wisdom. I therefore 
doubt their absolute value.


> 
> > > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over 
> > them. I 
> > > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know 
> > pain, 
> > > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the 
bottom of 
> > my 
> > > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the 
sensations 
> > at 
> > > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas, 
> > conceit. 
> > > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things 
akusala or 
> > > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are 
> > kusala 
> > > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know 
it 
> > is 
> > > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> 
> Nina and Num have discussed what is akusala recently.  My brief 
> understanding is that that they are qualities, if developed, bring 
only 
> unhappy results.  But yet we are not masters of causes and results, 
so we 
> cannot draw such conclusion ourself.   However, the Buddha said 
this, I 
> believe it, and it makes sense to me.  With that state of mind, 
then I can 
> study what are the different qualities and characteristics of the 
different 
> akusala realities, even just so as I know what is meant by kusala 
and 
> akusala, and what I believe will bring good or bad results.

Again on kamma, I have read, that a wholesome thing done may not bear 
it's fruit for countless years or lives. Same with an unwholesome 
thing. Far be it for me to connect one cause to a result somewhere 
else.
> 
> > Because of the complexity of infinite causes, how can I know that 
> > this thought caused that result, this action caused that feeling? 
I 
> 
> I think we can only draw conclusion in simple cases.
> 
> > really do not have the ability to make those discernments. I 
know "x 
> > says this is good, x says this is bad" I do not know "this is 
good, 
> > that is bad". Good and bad and in between are not absolutes, they 
are 
> > relative to a goal, a purpose. What is good for one person in one 
> > situation is bad for another. Over time I can start to believe 
that 
> > by smiling a lot I am influencing the course of the universe in a 
> > positive way. But am I ? And is that my goal?
> 
> I believe there are absolute qualities of those realities, even if 
the are 
> heavily conditioned by the co-arising realities and other pre-
arising 
> realities.  I also believe that those qualties bring results.   
Although I think 
> there are many goals that people pursue when studying Buddhism, but 
I 
> think one result that is unique to Buddhism only, the end of all 
suffering, is 
> a worthwhile goal to have.
> 
> > Kusala and akusala are tied to whatever goal is trying to be 
> > achieved. This may be trying to feel good or avoiding feeling 
bad, or 
> > escaping from Samsara or realising Nibbana or getting of the 
wheel of 
> > rebirths or whatever. How is it that we set out on a journey when 
we 
> > wouldn't recognise the destination if we tripped over it? And how 
is 
> > it that we "know" exactly what tools , what means , will get us 
to 
> > this destination?
> 
> As I believe that there are absolute qualities of realities that 
can be 
> observed, it's the only way to prove it to ourself whether or not 
something 
> is what we think it is or not.  This doesn't mean that one can 
prove 
> everything, but it means that the most important things will be 
provable.
> 
> I categorises my "faith" in Buddhism into three different 
categories: 1) 
> faith arising because of the teaching's self-consistency, 2) faith 
arising 
> because it makes sense to me based on my personal experiences/pre-
> disposition, and 3) faith arising because the realities can be 
> experienced/proven now.  If you call all these things as being pure 
faith, 
> then so be it.

Reality is the only thing that doesn't require faith. It also doesn't 
require discussion or verification via suttas or whatever.

Having said that, I immensely enjoy being part of this group, and 
always look forward to cranking up the old modem. (Clinging, I know, 
but I don't care)

I am not critical of you or anyone else. If I was you I would say 
what you have said, if you were me , likewise.

Kind regards, Kom


> 
> kom

 
5696 From: Herman 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:39pm
Subject: Captain Akusala

 
  Dear Robert,

So what is reborn? If that is a leading question, feel free to 
paraphrase it.

I ask the question in the light of not-self. What is born, what is 
reborn?

And you really believe it would be better to have bombed Hiroshima 
than to not believe in rebirth?

You obviously have a strong conviction about this.

Kind regards

Herman



--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Hi, Captain Akusala.
> robert
> --- Herman wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in
> > rebirth.
> > 
> > There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is to
> > be 
> > reborn if it isn't there in the first place?
> > 
> > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell over
> > them. I 
> > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I know
> > pain, 
> > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the bottom
> > of my 
> > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the
> > sensations at 
> > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg gas,
> > conceit. 
> > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things akusala
> > or 
> > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas are
> > kusala 
> > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't know
> > it is 
> > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> > 
> > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the
> > baby not a 
> > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats all
> > there is.
> > 
> > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral grounds
> > is as 
> > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They
> > both 
> > exist, thats reality. 
> > 
> > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples
> > headstones, 
> > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To
> > help the 
> > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or kusala,
> > it 
> > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they will
> > die with 
> > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or
> > akusala, it 
> > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither Mind
> > nor 
> > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as there
> > is life 
> > there is death, as long as there is being, there is
> > nothingness.
> > 
> > 
> > Herman
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> >  wrote:
> > > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view last
> > week
> > > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala. Views
> > that
> > > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
> > > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
> > > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the
> > saving
> > > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good works
> > lead
> > > to heaven: thus mother theresa.
> > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace of
> > god
> > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to  how
> > > serious the view is. 
> > > robert
> > > 

 
5697 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Captain Akusala

 
  --- Herman wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> So what is reborn? If that is a leading question, feel free to
> 
> paraphrase it.
> 
> I ask the question in the light of not-self. What is born,
> what is 
> reborn?
> 
> And you really believe it would be better to have bombed
> Hiroshima 
> than to not believe in rebirth?
> 
> You obviously have a strong conviction about this.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > Hi, Captain Akusala.
> > robert
> > --- Herman wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in
> > > rebirth.
> > > 
> > > There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is
> to
> > > be 
> > > reborn if it isn't there in the first place?
> > > 
> > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell
> over
> > > them. I 
> > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I
> know
> > > pain, 
> > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the
> bottom
> > > of my 
> > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the
> > > sensations at 
> > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg
> gas,
> > > conceit. 
> > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things
> akusala
> > > or 
> > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas
> are
> > > kusala 
> > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't
> know
> > > it is 
> > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> > > 
> > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the
> > > baby not a 
> > > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats
> all
> > > there is.
> > > 
> > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral
> grounds
> > > is as 
> > > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They
> > > both 
> > > exist, thats reality. 
> > > 
> > > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples
> > > headstones, 
> > > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To
> > > help the 
> > > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or
> kusala,
> > > it 
> > > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they
> will
> > > die with 
> > > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or
> > > akusala, it 
> > > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither
> Mind
> > > nor 
> > > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as
> there
> > > is life 
> > > there is death, as long as there is being, there is
> > > nothingness.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Herman
> > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> > >  wrote:
> > > > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view
> last
> > > week
> > > > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala.
> Views
> > > that
> > > > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
> > > > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
> > > > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the
> > > saving
> > > > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good
> works
> > > lead
> > > > to heaven: thus mother theresa.
> > > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace
> of
> > > god
> > > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to 
> how
> > > > serious the view is. 
> > > > robert
> > > > 



 
5698 From: Ong Teng Kee   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Jonothan Abbott
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:04:53 +0800 (CST)
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

Dear Jon,
I think you didn't understand satipatthana sutta ,its com and sub com.First you need to know that some people have enough parami of samatha ,so in this life he not need to emerge from jhana(as a sukkhavipassaka).Some must emerge from jhana to attain his fruition(as a samathayanika).
In satipatthana sutta  mentions vedana,citta and dhamma without mentioning jhana,that doesn't mean that we can do vedana anupassana without emerging from jhana because in com we have samathayanika doing anupassana after emerging from jhana on vedana with kasina as objeat first.We even find dhamma anupassana has practice of buddhanusati jhana.
When Buddha said ekayano-the only way in satipattana sutta,it couldn't be meaning samatha is not included in this very important sutta .It couldn't be meaning the direct way as tran by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his tran.This is a totally wrong tran.There are even people thinking satipattana sutta is for sukkhavipassaka only for all subjects .


> 


> 
> I question only the further connection that is frequently made between
> this and satipatthana, namely that for one who sees the importance of
> satipatthana the practice of samatha will help subdue the hindrances and
> this can be a great influence for the better in terms of the satipatthana.
>  I do not find this connection explicitly stated in the suttas,
> commentaries or abhidhamma, and it contradicts my understanding of the
> conditions for the arising of satipatthana (as found in the texts) --
> these do not in my view include the suppression of the hindrances that
> comes with the development of samatha (yes, even though the hindrances are
> said to 'weaken insight').
> 
> Dan, I hope this clarifies my supposed 'anti-samatha' position.
> 
> Jon
> 

 
5699 From: Tom Anderson 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Thanks for your reply, Robert. Your summation of the difficulty with 
TM is very apt, quite to the point. This, to me, seems to be the core 
element of the "cult" mentality that differentiates TM and other 
"cults" from genuine spiritual practise and aspiration. 

Finding this newsgroup has been quite helpful for me. I have looked 
at a number of the TM newsgroups in an effort to try to understand 
what was wrong with TM (it gives results, but they are not 
necessarily what one wants to be stuck with -- and they do stick). 
The idea being that understanding what is wrong will assisting in 
finding a cure. I already, of course, had the cure in my own practise 
of samatha/vipassana. But this group has really helped to understand 
that.

Many thanks, again, for your insightful response.

Tom.

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Very interesting, Tom. There are many types of concentration
> meditation and it seems to me that it is not so hard to develop
> wrong concentration(which comes with pleasant or neutral
> feeling) - but which is attached to the object of meditation.
> This can appear as genuine detachment because the old objects of
> attachment - family, career etc. - now seem less important than
> this new practice. 
> I think this can also happen with Buddhist practice,and so it
> takes  real inquiry to distinguish right from wrong; but I feel
> you know this already.
> thanks
> robert 
> 
> 
> --- <> wrote:
> > TM (transcendental meditation) is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's way
> > of 
> > bilking folks out of both trust and money. TM is a mantra
> > meditation. 
> > One thinks the mantra as easily as any other thought: the
> > result is, 
> > like samatha, a sense of quietness, at which point, one comes
> > back to 
> > the mantra at that quieter sense of thought. 
> > 
> > Trouble is, this leads to a very dissociated mental condition,
> > a 
> > spacey feeling, a slight disorientation, a dreamy kind of
> > approach to 
> > what others consider ordinary reality. (A safer form is Dr.
> > Benson's 
> > Relaxation Response; but the dissociative tendency is still a
> > part of 
> > the problem.) 
> > 
> > There are several sites that take a very critical look at TM.
> > I can 
> > post them if you are interested. Initially, TM feels good and
> > seems 
> > to be quite helpful, but one is increasingly drawn (by these 
> > feelings) into a desire for more involvement. [Hence, into
> > greater 
> > dissociation from the concerns of life and concerns for
> > others.]
> > 
> > Maharishi has turned this into a $3+billion enterprise!
> > Presently, he 
> > is trying to establish his own soverign nation in a poor South
> > 
> > American country. 
> > 
> > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> > wrote:
> > > what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ?
> > Or 
> > others ?
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Loke CL
> > > 

 
5700 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 8:58pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Rebirth- Captain Akusala

 
  Dear Herman,
The process of rebirth according to the Tipitaka is happening
even now. 

As you know said  that there is no permanent self, that what we
call a person is a conventional term for momentary arisings of
countless groups of subatomic matter (kalapas) and even briefer
moments of mental states which immediately after their presence
fall away.  Thus it has to be explained how, if matter and mind
are momentary, there is still continuity even in this life.  The
reason given is that the present matter and mind are conditioned
and in turn they condition more matter and mind.  If there were
no conditions the mind and matter would cease.  When Buddhists
speak of rebirth of persons, this is only for convenience and is
not to be taken in the sense of ultimate truth.  The words "I"
and "you" are expressions found useful in speech, but do not
designate realities.  What Buddhism calls the next life (or next
second, for that matter) is a conventional term for the
continuation of moments of mind and matter.  There is continuity
without identity, persistence without a persisting substance. 
 
No doer of the deeds is found, No one who ever reaps their
fruits
Empty phenomena roll on.  This only is the correct view.
No God nor Brahma can be called the maker of this wheel of life
Empty phenomena roll on, Dependent on conditions all.  
Visuddhimagga (Davids (ed.) 1920)

Among the conditions for the continuation of phenomena are the
same greed, hatred and delusion that obsess the mind now:
consequently at death, assuming these factors haven't been
eradicated, rebirth will ensue.  According to Buddhist texts the
transition from one life to another normally wipes out memories
of the earlier existence.  It doesn't, however, eliminate deep
character tendencies.  For instance if one had developed the
strong habit of kindness this would be carried over to the next
life.  In agreement with science, the texts acknowledge the
effect of the parent's genetic material and the environment but
put forward mental conditions  as  additional factors.  One is
born as a human (and as male or female, clever or not etc.)
because the genetic matter at conception is the most suitable
base for the individual stream of mentality to arise with at
that time.  This is said to be why even identical twins, having
the same genetic makeup and brought up in the same family, have
some differing characteristics. 
The most common analogy given in Buddhist texts to explain
rebirth is that of an oil-lamp.  The flame of the lamp is, in
one sense, the same hour after hour.  But we know that it is in
reality different each moment.  .  The wick, oil and air are
needed to keep it going and it is burning up these up.  However
the continuum � one moment of flame links with the next moment �
is happening so fast that we can�t see that each moment is
entirely different.  When the oil is almost exhausted the flame
may be used to light another lamp.  Is it a different flame now?
In one sense yes, the supply of oil and the wick are different. 
In another sense it is the same flame. In this simile the oil of
the lamp is like the body of a person.  The wick is the body
that functions as the support for the process of consciousness. 
The air and oxygen are the objects of sense (colour, sound,
smell etc.) and the flame is like consciousness and other mental
factors.  When the person dies that is the same as the first
lamp ending.  The transference of the flame to the next lamp is
the same as the arising of consciousness in the new body.

To understand conditionality, the crucial aspect of anatta, we
must understand that mind and matter (nama and rupa) can't
simply cease to arise while the conditions for them - greed,
aversion and delusion are present. If we believe that the stream
of mind and matter ends at death - no matter whetehr one is a
monster or a saint - then we are caught in self view of the type
that is anihilation view, a serious wrong view. 
This type of view means that one could well decide that it
doesn't matter what anyone does. One could be a killer but when
one dies one is exactly the same as Mother Theresa (by this
thinking). 
On the question of Hiroshima?; the one who understands
conditionality and kamma and rebirth would sooner stick their
head in a fire than commit such a deed.
robert

--- Herman wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> So what is reborn? If that is a leading question, feel free to
> 
> paraphrase it.
> 
> I ask the question in the light of not-self. What is born,
> what is 
> reborn?
> 
> And you really believe it would be better to have bombed
> Hiroshima 
> than to not believe in rebirth?
> 
> You obviously have a strong conviction about this.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> > Hi, Captain Akusala.
> > robert
> > --- Herman wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in
> > > rebirth.
> > > 
> > > There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is
> to
> > > be 
> > > reborn if it isn't there in the first place?
> > > 
> > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell
> over
> > > them. I 
> > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I
> know
> > > pain, 
> > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the
> bottom
> > > of my 
> > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the
> > > sensations at 
> > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg
> gas,
> > > conceit. 
> > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things
> akusala
> > > or 
> > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas
> are
> > > kusala 
> > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't
> know
> > > it is 
> > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> > > 
> > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the
> > > baby not a 
> > > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats
> all
> > > there is.
> > > 
> > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral
> grounds
> > > is as 
> > > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They
> > > both 
> > > exist, thats reality. 
> > > 
> > > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples
> > > headstones, 
> > > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To
> > > help the 
> > > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or
> kusala,
> > > it 
> > > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they
> will
> > > die with 
> > > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or
> > > akusala, it 
> > > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither
> Mind
> > > nor 
> > > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as
> there
> > > is life 
> > > there is death, as long as there is being, there is
> > > nothingness.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Herman
> > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> > >  wrote:
> > > > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view
> last
> > > week
> > > > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala.
> Views
> > > that
> > > > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
> > > > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
> > > > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the
> > > saving
> > > > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good
> works
> > > lead
> > > > to heaven: thus mother theresa.
> > > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace
> of
> > > god
> > > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to 
> how
> > > > serious the view is. 
> > > > robert
> > > > 



 
5701 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Dear Tom,

I appreciated Robert's reply too (as always).  Selling
concentrative bliss is an ancient business--maybe was
ancient in the Buddha's day (not sure about this). 
Here in the US it seems like another mega-guru hits
the best-seller lists every few years, recycling (and
selling) various bits and pieces of Indian religion.

I used to get mad at these guys.  Of course they're
really not to blame at all--just ignorance, aversion
and desire.  Which makes me all the more grateful for
the Budhhadhamma--and this list.  Welcome to dsg.

mike


 
5702 From: Tom 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:01pm
Subject: Re: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book

 
  --- "Amara"  wrote:
> Hi Everybody,

Firstly apologies for not posting anything since I registered to 
become a part of this group. I have had a look at some discussions of 
which some makes absolutely no sense whilst others I can understand 
amounts of.

I am actually 23 (doesn't time fly Sarah?!) and graduated from 
University last year with a degree in Sociology (like Sarah)which is 
part of the reason why I do not blindly accept things - I was brought 
up also into a Christian Society and attended Christian School. The 
analysis below about what I do and don't know about is essentially 
correct, although I did read some Buddhist readings on Consciousness 
and Social construction of the Self for a Philosophy course as a part 
of my degree.

I have a book called 'Teach yourself Buddhism' which I am gradually 
working through. My interest at present is purely investigative 
though this may not remain the case.

Tom
> 
> > The heading is to get Tom's attention. Tom is my 21yr
> > old nephew in England. He's completely new to
> > Buddhism, Betty, but he has joined the list recently
> > and is lurking in the background to see if he can
> > learn anything.
> 
> 
> Dear Tom,
> 
> A warm welcome from your aunt's Thai friend!  If there are any 
> questions I can help you with I shall be most happy to!
> 
> 
> > Betty, before you went to Turkey (hope you had a good
> > trip btw), you asked for suggestions for a book for
> > raw beginners. There wasn't much (any?) response,
> > probably because it was around the same time Erik made
> > his grand debut.
> 
> 
> Dear Sarah and Betty,
> 
> I think one other reason no one answered was because Betty was 
going 
> abroad, and after that we probably got so involved with other 
issues. 
> I think now is a great time to tackle this, especially since Tom is 
> there now also.  Betty has been a much loved teacher to her 
students 
> (and friends!  Are we still roommates for India?) for most of her 
> life, Tom, you're lucky she's on the list! 
> 
> 
> > I'm just trying to read Tom's mind a little, to see if
> > this helps give you any clues:
> > 
> > 1. He would know no pali words at all
> > 2. he probably knows a little about the life story of
> > the buddha
> > 3. He's probably heard about nibbana, maybe the noble
> > truth of suffering and I doubt much else.
> > 4. He would know something about the Dalai Lama
> > 
> > He'd probably like to hear about:
> > 
> > 1. What are the 'core' teachings in brief
> > 2. What is different from other religions
> > 3. Why people like his aunt (who he seldom sees) were
> > brought up strictly as Christians and then became
> > Buddhists
> > 4. Whether all kinds of Buddhism are the same
> > 5. How it helps in life, especially when one doesn't
> > have any special problems
> > 
> 
> I would like to ask Betty to begin with
> 
> 1. the meanings of the word dhamma
> 2. how it is divided into nama and rupa
> 3. how that is categorized into the 4 paramatthadhamma
> 
> for a firm basis first, and work from there.  This is how I see the 
> ideal beginner's book starting with!
> 
> What do you think, Betty?
> 
> Amara

 
5703 From: Erik 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

Robert,

> "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which
> four? There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is
> the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued,
> leads to the ending of the effluents. 
> 
> 1."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
> sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
> remains in the first jhana:

This is pretty unambiguous. Jhana always = pleasant abiding here & 
now. Nothing new here.

> 2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception
> of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any
> hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is
> the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he
> develops a brightened mind. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> attainment of knowledge & vision. 

Here is talks about "brightened mind." One side-effect of samatha and 
vipassana is this very "brightened mind." Samatha & vipassana 
condition the six yuggalas, mental and bodily tranquility, agility, 
pliancy, workableness, proficiency, and uprightness (passadhi, 
lahuta, muduta, kammannanta, pagunnata, ujukata). These 
characteristics are all hallmarks of a well-developed 
samatha/vipassana practice. This is almost appearing, if interpreted 
this way, as saying that insight can only arise this way, through 
this combination (the combination of samatha & vipassana being 
implied). Unless vipassana alone can engender this sort of mental 
brightness, without the support of samatha. But this brings me to a 
question. It is well-documented that one side-effect fo developing 
jhana meditation is "lightness" and "mental plinacy." This becomes 
very evident only a little way into a successful practice of jhana, 
just as things start cooking at the "bliss-bunny" stage of jhana 
meditation where it's all fun and new (and this elation can last 
months). So to me this passage appears to speak directly to this. If 
so, then pure vipassana should produce the same mental pliancy and 
lightness over time. Is this the case, though? I haven't heard of 
sukkhavipassaka practitioner talk about this sort of "lightness" 
and "pliancy," but that may only reflect my own considerable 
ignorance of this.

> 3."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is
> the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
> known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
> known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
> subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
> persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
> mindfulness & alertness. 
> 
> 4."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There
> is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling
> away with reference to the five aggregates for
> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination,
> such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
> origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> ending of the effluents. 

This is a somewhat confusing passage to me, given cultivating 
knowledge & vision are listed separately from terminating the asavas. 
The above mention about knowledge and vision TO ME represent the 
actual insight that abandons the fetters. This last passage discusses 
strategies that help one overcome the effluents, but are not the same 
as knowledge & vision (if I am interpreting this correctly). In other 
words, how are the asavas overcome? The Sabbasava Sutta lists several 
strategies apart from insight for doing away with the asavas: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn002.html

The last passsage you qouted, if taken literally, seems to imply that 
one can merely observe the arising and passing away of dhammas, that 
that alone is sufficient for release. But is it? If so, why then 
is "knowledge and vision" listed as a separate category among these 
four types up above?

In terms of terminating the asavas, the Sabbasava Sutta notes:

"There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be 
abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be 
abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to 
be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing."

Note "seeing" here refers to yoniso manasikara, not panna, from my 
reading of the Sutta.

In terms of awakening, the Sabbasava Sutta lists the bojjhangas:

"And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There 
is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops 
mindfulness as a factor of awakening dependent on 
seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go. He 
develops analysis of qualities as a factor of awakening...persistence 
as a factor of awakening...rapture as a factor of 
awakening...serenity as a factor of awakening...concentration as a 
factor of awakening...equanimity as a factor of awakening dependent 
on seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go. The 
fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to 
develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. 
These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing."

Just a quick question. My guess here is the dhamma-vicaya 
(investigation of dharmas) is a synonym for the type of insight 
meditation fo vipassana. If not, can someone please clarify for me?

I am curious to piece all these various factors together, the ridding 
of the asavas along with knowledge & vision, how they relate. It is 
becoming clearer and clearer that the idea of lokuttara-nana as some 
magic "silver bullet" is a pipe-dream if we wish to do away with 
dukkha here and now. In other words, insight alone is insufficient 
for happiness here and now, even if it is lokuttara (pre arahata-
magga anyway). This is confirmed by the scriptures; nowhere does it 
imply dukkha is terminated until arahata-magga. So there have to be 
other ways to get rid of dukkha that work in the relative world. This 
is my reading of these instructions, that we have to apply all these 
myriad antidotes in the course of development.

My only comment from my own experience is that watching the arising 
and pasing away of dhamma has been the most effective tool I have 
found to deal with panic attacks for example. This enabled me to 
conquer this nasty problem, by feeling the dhammas as mere 
physiological sensations separate from the psychological associations 
that normally create the panic-loop. Also to deal with may unpleasant 
sensations (though I still confess I have been overwhelmed at times, 
especially lately), I have found this to really help. As far as being 
a basis for deep insight, not yet, though I imagine if I could 
practice this in a retreat setting I may get more insight into how 
this works at the level you suggest.

 
5704 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:24pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book

 
  Tom

Welcome to the list, and thanks for the 'coming out' post.  Sarah will be
delighted when she sees.

--- Tom wrote: 
> --- "Amara"  wrote:
> > Hi Everybody,
> 
> Firstly apologies for not posting anything since I registered to 
> become a part of this group. I have had a look at some discussions of 
> which some makes absolutely no sense whilst others I can understand 
> amounts of.

I know what you mean.  Some of us get a bit carried away with obstruse
points, but I'm glad this has not deterred you.  Always feel free to come
in and ask or say anything - chances are there are several 'lurkers'
wanting to know or say the same thing.

> I am actually 23 (doesn't time fly Sarah?!) and graduated from 
> University last year with a degree in Sociology (like Sarah)which is 
> part of the reason why I do not blindly accept things - I was brought 
> up also into a Christian Society and attended Christian School. The 
> analysis below about what I do and don't know about is essentially 
> correct, although I did read some Buddhist readings on Consciousness 
> and Social construction of the Self for a Philosophy course as a part 
> of my degree.
> 
> I have a book called 'Teach yourself Buddhism' which I am gradually 
> working through. My interest at present is purely investigative 
> though this may not remain the case.

Do bring up any points from your reading, and we look forward to hearing
more from you.

Jon



 
5705 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dear Erik,
good questions . The second type of concentration - where it
talks about "knowledge and vision' is confusing as we might
think it refers to insight. I think the commentaries (as I
remember - don't have a reference handy) say that this refers to
the type of special power developed after the jhanas are
mastered where one can see all kinds of things (devas etc.) that
are now hidden to us. It is quite different from vipassana and
is rather a result of perfected samatha practice. if someone can
check the commentary on this it would be helpful.
robert
--- Erik wrote:
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> 
> Robert,
> 
> > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration.
> Which
> > four? There is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here
> &
> > now. There is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> > vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There
> is
> > the development of concentration that, when developed &
> pursued,
> > leads to the ending of the effluents. 
> > 
> > 1."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here
> &
> > now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
> > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
> > remains in the first jhana:
> 
> This is pretty unambiguous. Jhana always = pleasant abiding
> here & 
> now. Nothing new here.
> 
> > 2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> > vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the
> perception
> > of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at
> any
> > hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night
> is
> > the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered,
> he
> > develops a brightened mind. This is the development of
> > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> > attainment of knowledge & vision. 
> 
> Here is talks about "brightened mind." One side-effect of
> samatha and 
> vipassana is this very "brightened mind." Samatha & vipassana 
> condition the six yuggalas, mental and bodily tranquility,
> agility, 
> pliancy, workableness, proficiency, and uprightness (passadhi,
> 
> lahuta, muduta, kammannanta, pagunnata, ujukata). These 
> characteristics are all hallmarks of a well-developed 
> samatha/vipassana practice. This is almost appearing, if
> interpreted 
> this way, as saying that insight can only arise this way,
> through 
> this combination (the combination of samatha & vipassana being
> 
> implied). Unless vipassana alone can engender this sort of
> mental 
> brightness, without the support of samatha. But this brings me
> to a 
> question. It is well-documented that one side-effect fo
> developing 
> jhana meditation is "lightness" and "mental plinacy." This
> becomes 
> very evident only a little way into a successful practice of
> jhana, 
> just as things start cooking at the "bliss-bunny" stage of
> jhana 
> meditation where it's all fun and new (and this elation can
> last 
> months). So to me this passage appears to speak directly to
> this. If 
> so, then pure vipassana should produce the same mental pliancy
> and 
> lightness over time. Is this the case, though? I haven't heard
> of 
> sukkhavipassaka practitioner talk about this sort of
> "lightness" 
> and "pliancy," but that may only reflect my own considerable 
> ignorance of this.
> 
> > 3."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There
> is
> > the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
> > known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions
> are
> > known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as
> they
> > subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as
> they
> > persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
> > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
> > mindfulness & alertness. 
> > 
> > 4."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> > developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents?
> There
> > is the case where a monk remains focused on arising &
> falling
> > away with reference to the five aggregates for
> > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination,
> such
> > its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination,
> such
> > its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination,
> such
> > its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their
> origination,
> > such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
> > origination, such its disappearance.' This is the
> development of
> > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> > ending of the effluents. 
> 
> This is a somewhat confusing passage to me, given cultivating 
> knowledge & vision are listed separately from terminating the
> asavas. 
> The above mention about knowledge and vision TO ME represent
> the 
> actual insight that abandons the fetters. This last passage
> discusses 
> strategies that help one overcome the effluents, but are not
> the same 
> as knowledge & vision (if I am interpreting this correctly).
> In other 
> words, how are the asavas overcome? The Sabbasava Sutta lists
> several 
> strategies apart from insight for doing away with the asavas: 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn002.html
> 
> The last passsage you qouted, if taken literally, seems to
> imply that 
> one can merely observe the arising and passing away of
> dhammas, that 
> that alone is sufficient for release. But is it? If so, why
> then 
> is "knowledge and vision" listed as a separate category among
> these 
> four types up above?
> 
> In terms of terminating the asavas, the Sabbasava Sutta notes:
> 
> "There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to
> be 
> abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using,
> those to be 
> abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding,
> those to 
> be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by
> developing."
> 
> Note "seeing" here refers to yoniso manasikara, not panna,
> from my 
> reading of the Sutta.
> 
> In terms of awakening, the Sabbasava Sutta lists the
> bojjhangas:
> 
> "And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing?
> There 
> is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops 
> mindfulness as a factor of awakening dependent on 
> seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go.
> He 
> develops analysis of qualities as a factor of
> awakening...persistence 
> as a factor of awakening...rapture as a factor of 
> awakening...serenity as a factor of awakening...concentration
> as a 
> factor of awakening...equanimity as a factor of awakening
> dependent 
> on seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting
> go. The 
> fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were
> not to 
> develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops
> them. 
> These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by
> developing."
> 
> Just a quick question. My guess here is the dhamma-vicaya 
> (investigation of dharmas) is a synonym for the type of
> insight 
> meditation fo vipassana. If not, can someone please clarify
> for me?
> 
> I am curious to piece all these various factors together, the
> ridding 
> of the asavas along with knowledge & vision, how they relate.
> It is 
> becoming clearer and clearer that the idea of lokuttara-nana
> as some 
> magic "silver bullet" is a pipe-dream if we wish to do away
> with 
> dukkha here and now. In other words, insight alone is
> insufficient 
> for happiness here and now, even if it is lokuttara (pre
> arahata-
> magga anyway). This is confirmed by the scriptures; nowhere
> does it 
> imply dukkha is terminated until arahata-magga. So there have
> to be 
> other ways to get rid of dukkha that work in the relative
> world. This 
> is my reading of these instructions, that we have to apply all
> these 
> myriad antidotes in the course of development.
> 
> My only comment from my own experience is that watching the
> arising 
> and pasing away of dhamma has been the most effective tool I
> have 
> found to deal with panic attacks for example. This enabled me
> to 
> conquer this nasty problem, by feeling the dhammas as mere 
> physiological sensations separate from the psychological
> associations 
> that normally create the panic-loop. Also to deal with may
> unpleasant 
> sensations (though I still confess I have been overwhelmed at
> times, 
> especially lately), I have found this to really help. As far
> as being 
> a basis for deep insight, not yet, though I imagine if I could
> 
> practice this in a retreat setting I may get more insight into
> how 
> this works at the level you suggest.
> 
> 
> 



 
5706 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:52pm
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dear Roberts,

The commentaries translated in Thai says the same thing.

kom

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:
> Dear Erik,
> good questions . The second type of concentration - where it
> talks about "knowledge and vision' is confusing as we might
> think it refers to insight. I think the commentaries (as I
> remember - don't have a reference handy) say that this refers to
> the type of special power developed after the jhanas are
> mastered where one can see all kinds of things (devas etc.) that
> are now hidden to us. It is quite different from vipassana and
> is rather a result of perfected samatha practice. if someone can
> check the commentary on this it would be helpful.
> robert

 
5707 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:57pm
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Corrections: 

--- "Kom Tukovinit"  wrote:
> Dear Roberts,
> 
> (I remember) The commentaries translated in Thai says the same thing.
> 
> kom

 
5708 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Thanks Kom,
I would much appreciate if someone can give a translation of the
commentary - pali or Thai to this. I have seen the sort of
confusion that Erik noted with other serious students of Dhamma
on this point.
 We often have similar cofusions in English because so few of
the commentaries are translated and thus people reach their own
conclusions.
robert
--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:
> Corrections: 
> 
> --- "Kom Tukovinit" 
> wrote:
> > Dear Roberts,
> > 
> > (I remember) The commentaries translated in Thai says the
> same thing.
> > 
> > kom
> 



 
5709 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Revealing the defilements (was Re: Fwd: Questions)

 
  Howard

Thanks for this post.  I must apologise (and to others also) for my
slowness in getting back on posts -- I'm afraid I've not been able to keep
up lately (but I'm enjoying the stimulating discussion).

--- Howard wrote:
 > Hi, Jon -
>        I understand what you are saying, but I believe that there are
> (at 
> least) two senses of the (noble 8-fold) path, the higher being the 
> supermundane path, and the lower being the mundane path. 

Yes, this is my understanding also.  The supramundane path refers to the
lower stages of enlightenment that lead to final enlightenment.  This is
the Noble Eightfold path properly so called.  The mundane path refers to a
moment of satipatthana (awareness) arising in one who has not attained to
any of the stages of enlightenment.

> We start on the
> mundane path. We begin where we are, else there is no beginning, and
> hence no 
> ending. The cultivation of all the factors of mindfulness starts on the 
> mundane path. 

Absolutely.  And this is a very useful reminder.

> You write "Thus it is mindfulness that is watchful (guards the 
> senses) and 'exercises' effort - when it arises." But this arising of 
> mindfulness is not a random occurrence - nothing comes from nothing, but
> results from practice, and that practice includes persistent mundane
> effort.

True.  But mundane effort is still not the same as conventional effort. 
The factors of the mundane path, at a moment of satipatthana, also perform
their 'path-factor' functions, but at the mundane level.  This includes in
the case of viraya (effort) cetasika the fourfold endeavour in relation to
the arising and maintaining of kusala etc.

As you said above, we begin where we are.  Part of the 'where we are' is a
person with lots of akusala and very little accumulated understanding.  So
we know that any moments of awareness that arise are bound to be weak and
fleeting -- but even one such moment is of inestimable value.  If we have
an appreciation of the urgency and importance of the task, this can
condition the arising of the necessary effort, but only of course if we
have a correct understanding of the development of satipatthana in the
first place.

Jon


 
5710 From: Tom Anderson 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 0:00am
Subject: wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  I think it is extremely difficult to remain grateful to the guru 
types who daily try to get us to subscribe to their methods of 
enriching them! But you are so right. If H. H. the Dalai Lama can be 
grateful to Mao, then, surely all these petty thieves are sent to us 
to help us see the Way more clearly.

Sometimes I ruminate on some aspect of the greed-drived guru-types 
out to rip off the ignorant masses and then find in that some little 
thing the Buddha said. Increasingly I am overwhelmed by the 
brilliance of the elegant insight of the Dharma. 

This news group is such a blessing.

Thanks.

--- "m. nease" <"m. nease"> wrote:
> Dear Tom,
> 
> I appreciated Robert's reply too (as always).  Selling
> concentrative bliss is an ancient business--maybe was
> ancient in the Buddha's day (not sure about this). 
> Here in the US it seems like another mega-guru hits
> the best-seller lists every few years, recycling (and
> selling) various bits and pieces of Indian religion.
> 
> I used to get mad at these guys.  Of course they're
> really not to blame at all--just ignorance, aversion
> and desire.  Which makes me all the more grateful for
> the Budhhadhamma--and this list.  Welcome to dsg.
> 
> mike
> 

 
5711 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 1:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joining Realities into a "Whole" (From 'Cetasikas')

 
  op 18-06-2001 21:37 schreef Howard op Howard:

> Hi, Nina (and all) -
> 
> I have started reading (and thoroughly enjoying) 'Cetasikas'. In the
> introduction, you write the following:
> 
> Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise and fall away extremely rapidly.
> When right understanding has not been developed we cannot distinguish between
> different objects experienced through the different doorways. We are inclined
> to join different realities together into a 'whole", and thus we cannot
> realize their arising and falling away, their impermanence, and their nature
> of non-self. 
> 
> I am trying to understand *where* the attempted joining of different
> realities occurs. If cittas truly occur as separate, discrete states, then it
> would seem that such a "joining" would have to occur within a single citta,
> in which case it is a processing of *memories* of preceding cittas and their
> cetasikas. Is this so?
Dear Howard,
Joining realities into a whole.
 
Does this not happen time and again in our life? We read unpleasant or sad
news and immediately we think with aversion about the story we read, or
about the person who wrote to us, we are distressed by concepts. Or, we read
good news and we are carried away by the story, are delighted. In reality
there is seeing which sees just colour or visible object. Seeing is vipaka,
result of kamma, but seeing only knows colour, it does not know whether the
object is pleasant or unpleasant. Then there are after seeing has fallen
away other types of cittas which recognize the meaning of the letters and
other ones which think of the story that was written, and the thinking goes
on and on. It seems that everything is known in one moment, seeing and
recognizing the letters and knowing the meaning, but this is not so. We join
as it were many different phenomena into a whole: the world, we, ourselves
who are unhappy or happy. Indeed, sa~n~naa, remmebrance, which accompanies
each citta plays an important part, but also other cetasikas.
We may have read many times in the Kindred Sayings on Sense (K. IV, Ch 3, �
82) the sutta on the World, but it is always new, always fresh since it
reminds us of the truth:
Then a certain brother came to see the Exalted One...Seated at one side that
brother said to the Exalted One:-
� �The world!The world!� is the saying,lord. How far, lord, does this saying
go?�
�It crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called �the world.� What
crumbles away? The eye... objects...eye-consciousness...etc. It crumbles
away, brethren. Therefore, it is called �the world� �
It is so good to be reminded of realities, it can help us in times of
disease, suffering, affliction, loss of dear people. When there is
satipatthana the world starts to crumble away: only one object through one
doorway at a time appears.That is reality, no use to dwell on and on on what
has fallen away.  
A long time ago when I was in India with Khun Sujin, Sarah, Jonothan and
others we were having tea in a garden in Benares, discussing the Dhamma
(happy surprise, several of them are on this list, it is like meeting old
friends again). Afterwards we were thinking of the story of the garden and
all the people in it drinking tea, but, as Khun Sujin explained, there is
only one moment of citta thinking of this story, this whole, and when the
thinking falls away, the story is over; where are all the people? It is a
kind of death. At the last moment of life the dying-consciousness falls away
and then also the story of our life we found so important is gone. The late
Phra Dhammadharo kept on reminding us of this. (By the way, this is
mindfulness of death, marana sati, Robert was referring to this as something
that is always with him. Please, Robert, I like a reminder, can you add
something?)
 Past experiences have been accumulated and since each citta is succeeded by
a following one they can be remembered vividly, even now. I still remember
so clearly the garden in Benares, sitting there talking Dhamma.
After a long stay in Sri Lanka Sarah brought me to the airport and since I
was sad to take leave she reminded me of the Benares story: all the people
in Sri Lanka we met during these weeks are a story we are thinking of, just
a moment of citta which thinks, and then the story disappears with the citta
which falls away. No more.
Thus, if we realize that there are in the ultimate sense only elements, no
people, no world, we may begin to understand the difference between the
moments we think of concepts and the moments that just one reality appears
at a time.
For more explanation you may like to read the article on Zolag web
Understanding Reality, about eating a duck�s foot. We think, I am eating a
duck�s foot but there are many different realities: seeing, visible object,
attention to shape and form, tasting, thinking of flavour.
Nina.   
       

 
5712 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1....

 
  Hi, Robert (and Jon) -

In a message dated 6/19/01 4:20:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:


> Dear howard and jon,
> Could I quote a sutta which may have bearing on your
> conversation>
> > > 
> > >       HOward:  Now, this last material points out that the
> > hindrances are
> > > hindrances 
> > > to concentration.
> 
> > JON:Agreed.
> > 
> >  Howard: The previous material of the Upanisa Sutta points out
> > > the 
> > > prerequisite status of samatha for vipassana
> _____
> > 
> Jon:  This point I need to consider.  I am wondering if you are
> > perhaps equating
> > concentration with samatha.  The 2 are not always used
> > synonymously
> > (although sometimes they are).  Concentration is the normal
> > translation
> > for samadhi, the cetasika that is one of the Universals. 
> > Samatha is
> > usually translated as tranquillity, calmness or the like,
> > since that is
> > its distinguishing feature.  Of course, it is developed by
> > concentration
> > on an appropriate subject (kammatthana), but it is a
> > particular kind of
> > development of concentration, accompanied by panna and leading
> > to the
> > tranquillity that comes from being temporarily freed from
> > kilesa.
> > 
> > References to concentration are sometimes references to
> > concentration of
> > the particular kind that accompanies panna of the level of
> > vipassana. 
> > This is possibly how your last reference is to be read
> > (concentration that
> > is ‘for the ending of the effluents’).
> _______________________________________________
> I think Jon has explained this correctly. Here is the samadhi
> sutta. Note the different types of concentration. (the 3rd type
> is that associated with satipatthana and the last type with
> advanced stages of vipassana)
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
> Samadhi Sutta
> Concentration
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which
> four? There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is
> the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued,
> leads to the ending of the effluents. 
> 
> 1."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
> sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
> remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from
> withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With
> the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters &
> remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of
> composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought &
> evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he
> remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive
> to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which
> the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a
> pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain --
> as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he
> enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
> mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development
> of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a
> pleasant abiding in the here & now. 
> 
> 2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception
> of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any
> hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is
> the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he
> develops a brightened mind. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> attainment of knowledge & vision. 
> 
> 3."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is
> the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
> known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
> known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
> subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
> persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
> mindfulness & alertness. 
> 
> 4."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There
> is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling
> away with reference to the five aggregates for
> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination,
> such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
> origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> ending of the effluents. 
> 
> "These are the four developments of concentration. 
> 
> "And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's
> Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn V.3]: 
> 
> 'He who has fathomed
> the far & near in the world,
> for whom there is nothing
> perturbing in the world -- 
>     his vices evaporated,
>     undesiring, untroubled,
>         at peace -- 
> he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
>             aging.'" 
> 
> 
=================================
       Thank you (both) for the valid points. For some reason, I have not yet 
seen the post of yours, Jon, that Robert quotes here.
       With regard to concentation and calm not being one and the same, I 
certainly realize that. But they typically co-occur, and they are mutually 
supportive. Hence the association. The point of my post was that suppressing 
the hindrances leads to calm, which fosters concentration, which in turn 
enables further calm and further suppression of he hindrances, and the 
concentration is prerequisite for the development of insight, and, hence - 
bottom line - samatha and supression of hindrances lead to insight.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5713 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 5:43am
Subject: Those pesky hindrances again...

 
  I found this posted elsewhere:

"Bhikkhus, like a man would borrow some money to engage in some 
business. When that business prospered, he would pay off the debt and 
would have some money remaining for his wife and children. So he 
would reflect, earlier I borrowed this money and engaged in this 
business. It prospered. I paid off the debt and now I have some money 
remaining to attend to my wife and children. He gains joy and 
pleasure on account of it.Or like a man who was seriously ill, not 
desiring even to take food, and in the meantime he would get over the 
illness Food too will become agreeable to him and he would regain his 
bodily strength. So he reflects, earlier I was seriously ill, food 
was not agreeable to me. Now I have overcome that illness, food is 
agreeable, and now I have regained my bodily strength. Recalling this 
he gains joy and pleasure. Or like a man, released from prison. Happy 
and without fear and not losing his wealth. He reflects, earlier I 
was a prisoner, now am free and happy. I have not lost my wealth and 
now I live without fear. Recalling that he gains pleasure and joy. Or 
like a man who was a slave under another's power, not in his own 
power, not able to go where he liked. Released he is no more under 
another's power, using his power, freed from slavery would go where 
he liked. He reflects, earlier, I was a slave, under another's power, 
not in my own power. Now I `m free, in my own power, free to go where 
I like. On account of that he gains joy and pleasure. Or like a man 
in a desert with his wealth. Would safely cross the desert without 
loss of wealth. He would reflect, I entered the desert path with all 
my wealth and crossed the desert safely without loss of life or 
wealth and he gains pleasure and joy on account of it. In the same 
manner the bhikkhu sees himself as though in debt, with an illness, 
in prison, as a slave, and as in a desert path when the five 
hindrances are not dispelled, When they are dispelled he sees himself 
as the debt paid off, the illness subsided, released from prison, 
released from slavery, and as having crossed the desert path."

MN Mahaassapurasutta

 
5714 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:46am
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dear Jon,
You wrote:
> I question only the further connection that is frequently made 
between
> this and satipatthana, namely that for one who sees the importance 
of
> satipatthana the practice of samatha will help subdue the 
hindrances and
> this can be a great influence for the better in terms of the 
satipatthana.
>  I do not find this connection explicitly stated in the suttas,
> commentaries or abhidhamma, and it contradicts my understanding of 
the
> conditions for the arising of satipatthana (as found in the texts) -
-
> these do not in my view include the suppression of the hindrances 
that
> comes with the development of samatha (yes, even though the 
hindrances are
> said to 'weaken insight').
> 
> Dan, I hope this clarifies my supposed 'anti-samatha' position.

Let me make sure I get this right. I think that samatha can support 
and help strengthen insight. And do you say that samatha CAN'T 
support and strengthen satipatthana? I don't see it. Can you share 
your understanding of the conditions for the arising of satipatthana 
and how by that understanding you see that it it is impossible for 
samatha to support and strengthen satipatthana?

Dan

 
5715 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott  <Moderators> 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:25am
Subject: Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  --- jlsallis  wrote: 


> Hi, group -
> I've been on dhamma-list for a while, and am
> following Amara's dhamma study.
> I thought I might learn some more here.  I've been
> practicing for quite a
> while, but only started study about a year or so
> ago.  My meditation is
> mostly mindfulness of the breath.  I don't consider
> that I belong to any
> particular tradition,though.
> I'll probably lurk for a while and get my bearings.
> Thanks for the welcome -
> Judy Sallis
> >
> >All new members are invited to consider posting a
> short �Hello�.  Other
> members would be interested to know something about
> you, your interest in
> Buddhism and how you found your way here!



 
5716 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Hi, Judy,

Thanks for joining and giving a short intro..we all like to see these and find
out a little more about new members.

I sincerely hope you do learn more here. Please don't feel overwhelmed by some
of the detailed posts and we hope to hear plenty from you, so don't lurk too
long ;-))

Where do you live by the way?

Best wishes,
Sarah

jlsallis  wrote: 
> > Hi, group -
> > I've been on dhamma-list for a while, and am
> > following Amara's dhamma study.
> > I thought I might learn some more here.  I've been
> > practicing for quite a
> > while, but only started study about a year or so
> > ago.  My meditation is
> > mostly mindfulness of the breath.  I don't consider
> > that I belong to any
> > particular tradition,though.
> > I'll probably lurk for a while and get my bearings.
> > Thanks for the welcome -
> > Judy Sallis



 
5717 From: Howard 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 5:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was, Re: Discouraging (1....

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/19/01 7:49:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jonothan Abbott writes:


> It also brings out another point about your post, Howard.  Reference to
> 'knowledge and vision', as in the Upanisa Sutta, is often a reference to a
> level of samatha, rather than the vipassana it sounds so much like.  This
> can be a trap for the casual reader.
> 
> In the 2nd of the 4 types of concentration in the Samadhi Sutta quoted
> below, the reference is I think to samatha (subject to checking the
> commentary!).
> 
===========================
       Hmm! Interesting. Easy to make a mistake here I see. Thanks, Jon!

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5718 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dan

> Let me make sure I get this right. I think that samatha can support 
> and help strengthen insight. And do you say that samatha CAN'T 
> support and strengthen satipatthana? I don't see it. Can you share 
> your understanding of the conditions for the arising of satipatthana 
> and how by that understanding you see that it it is impossible for 
> samatha to support and strengthen satipatthana?
> 
> Dan

I will try and give my understanding about this in as simple terms as
possible.

Satipatthana is the development of awareness/mindfulness of a reality
appearing at the present moment.

The prerequisites for the arising of awareness are:
-  having met the dhamma, listened to it and considered it at length
-  having understood correctly what awareness is, its function and
characteristic and what can be the object of awareness
-  applying what one has heard and correctly understood.

The main obstacle to the arising of awareness is not recognising one�s
wrong view about its development.

As regards samatha, if we see the importance and urgency of studying the
reality of the present moment, it is not necessary to think in terms of a
specific role for samatha in that studying, any more than it is to think
in terms of a role for dana or sila.  This of course is not to deny the
great kusala that dana, sila and samatha are.  Every opportunity for the
development of kusala of any kind is to be welcomed, and any kusala
developed will be a support for the future development of awareness. 
There is a connection, but it is a question as to exactly what that
connection is.

That�s it in a nutshell for me.  Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on
this subject.

Jon

--- Dan wrote: > Dear Jon,
> You wrote:
> > I question only the further connection that is frequently made 
> between
> > this and satipatthana, namely that for one who sees the importance 
> of
> > satipatthana the practice of samatha will help subdue the 
> hindrances and
> > this can be a great influence for the better in terms of the 
> satipatthana.
> >  I do not find this connection explicitly stated in the suttas,
> > commentaries or abhidhamma, and it contradicts my understanding of 
> the
> > conditions for the arising of satipatthana (as found in the texts) -
> -
> > these do not in my view include the suppression of the hindrances 
> that
> > comes with the development of samatha (yes, even though the 
> hindrances are
> > said to 'weaken insight').
> > 
> > Dan, I hope this clarifies my supposed 'anti-samatha' position.
> 
> Let me make sure I get this right. I think that samatha can support 
> and help strengthen insight. And do you say that samatha CAN'T 
> support and strengthen satipatthana? I don't see it. Can you share 
> your understanding of the conditions for the arising of satipatthana 
> and how by that understanding you see that it it is impossible for 
> samatha to support and strengthen satipatthana?
> 
> Dan
> 



 
5719 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:58am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  this sounds pretty scary... especially about the soverign nation..... it has
doomsday occult written all over it.......or money making machine....

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tom Anderson 
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 19, 2001 6:38 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
> 
> TM (transcendental meditation) is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's way of 
> bilking folks out of both trust and money. TM is a mantra meditation. 
> One thinks the mantra as easily as any other thought: the result is, 
> like samatha, a sense of quietness, at which point, one comes back to 
> the mantra at that quieter sense of thought. 
> 
> Trouble is, this leads to a very dissociated mental condition, a 
> spacey feeling, a slight disorientation, a dreamy kind of approach to 
> what others consider ordinary reality. (A safer form is Dr. Benson's 
> Relaxation Response; but the dissociative tendency is still a part of 
> the problem.) 
> 
> There are several sites that take a very critical look at TM. I can 
> post them if you are interested. Initially, TM feels good and seems 
> to be quite helpful, but one is increasingly drawn (by these 
> feelings) into a desire for more involvement. [Hence, into greater 
> dissociation from the concerns of life and concerns for others.]
> 
> Maharishi has turned this into a $3+billion enterprise! Presently, he 
> is trying to establish his own soverign nation in a poor South 
> American country. 
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ? Or 
> others ?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Loke CL
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Tom Anderson > > > Sent:	Tuesday, June 19, 2001 7:37 AM
> > > > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: RE: Welcome to 
> dhammastudygroup 
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your message and you're very welcome here!
> > > 
> > > That's interesting about the TM newsgroups..do hope this never 
> becomes
> > > 'frightening'! 
> > > 	I doubt it will. It is just one of the side-effects of TM, I 
> think.
> > > You're in good company here with others who have also studied
> > > and practised Zen for many years and also Tibetan Budddhism.
> > > 
> > > Looking forward to hearing more from you. Where do you live?
> > > TORONTO
> > > 
> > > Best wishes and thanks,
> > > Sarah

 
5720 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 0:10pm
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> great kusala that dana, sila and samatha are.  Every opportunity for the
> development of kusala of any kind is to be welcomed, and any kusala
> developed will be a support for the future development of awareness. 
> There is a connection, but it is a question as to exactly what that
> connection is.

I would be grateful if you expand on what this connection is.

kom

 
5721 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:04pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book

 
  Dear all,

I too would like to know some of the below especially the Christians
part....
	> > 3. Why people like his aunt (who he seldom sees) were
	> > brought up strictly as Christians and then became
	> > Buddhists
	> 1. the meanings of the word dhamma
	> 2. how it is divided into nama and rupa
	> 3. how that is categorized into the 4 paramatthadhamma

	thanks in advance

	Loke CL

 
5722 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:12pm
Subject: Paying Respect

 
  Dear list,

	Something struck me this morning while I was on my motorcycle on my
way to work..... Although I had been a practising Buddhist for almost 13
years.... something came across that I couldn't seem to understand fully....
the question is 


	"Why do we kneel and bring our foreheads down to the back of our
hands to pay respects to monks and our teachers....?"


Since it was done without knowing in the beginning .... or understanding and
now the need to understand arises.. ok ok I was asked by a friend and I
couldn't seems to be able to provide a satisfactory answer. Certain friends
told me this is to cultivate humility... but is that all ? What other
reasons for this actions ? I initially thought it to be some kind of
tradition and practise.... But I am sure there is more to it... 

Any takers ?

May all of you be well and happy always,

Loke CL

 
5723 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:54pm
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's questions on westerners and rebirth

 
  not really... I mean what goes on in a person's mind when the voncersion
takes place.. does he sees the negativity and how wrong his birth religion
wise.. or maybe he sees it a realisation ... The key question here is what
change ?

Thanks,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jonothan Abbott [SMTP:Jon]
> Sent:	Saturday, June 16, 2001 5:38 PM
> Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's questions on westerners and
> rebirth
> 
> CL
> 
> I have something I think you might find of interest in your search for
> reasons why westerners become interested in Buddhism, and how they handle
> issues such as rebirth.
> 
> The other day I received an email from a former colleague, now several
> years retired and living back in his home country.  Since leaving Hong
> Kong he has become a Buddhist!  He gives a short explanation, which I will
> quote below.  It seems that the question of rebirth was quite central to
> his change of beliefs.  The conversation he mentions was I think the only
> conversation I ever had with him on matters of religion, beliefs etc.
> 
> Here is what he writes:
> I thought of it [Buddhism] as a curiosity until one day in Hong Kong.   
> It was the day when I happened to be talking to you and I said something
> like - "Isn't it the Buddhists who believe in reincarnation?"   And you
> said - "So do the Christians - in their way".    That thought had such an
> effect on me that shortly afterwards I concluded that I wasn't a
> Christian.     I went and got various books - mainly by Christmas
> Humphreys - and decided that his Theosophy or Buddhism made a great deal
> of sense - and that a lot of Buddhist ideas make a great deal of sense.   
>  Incidentally, I believe Voltaire once wrote - "It is no more surprising
> to be born twice than it is to be born once."
> 
> So there's a first-hand account.  Does it answer any questions for you?
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)"  wrote: > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Robert Kirkpatrick [SMTP:robert]
> > > Sent:	Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:32 PM
> > > > > Subject:	RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: questions
> > > 
> > >  Especially when it comes to kamma and rebirth I try to make
> > > every effort to convince - if I think there is any chance of
> > > slowly bringing one around. 
> > > There are five actions that inevitably lead one to avicci hell _
> > > these are splitting the sangha, killing an arahant, wounding a
> > > Buddha, killing ones father or mother. However, these are rated
> > > as being less serious kamma than the wrong view that thinks life
> > > ends simply upon death- because this view denies kamma. One who
> > > holds this view is said to go to apaya. And it is also strong
> > > wrong view that particularly pertains to the simile of the
> > > turtle poking his head through the ring every hundred years.
> > > Devadatta wounded the buddha and split the sangha - however he
> > > didn't have strong wrong view and is predicted to become a
> > > pacceka buddha.
> > > 
> > > We can see the danger of such views. Would one who believed in
> > > kamma and rebirth have bombed hiroshima. I read an interview
> > > with an abortion doctor who felt that he was acting heroically
> > > by doing so many (well-paid) abortions a day when it was an
> > > unpopular job. 
> > > When I hear wrong view I really feel concerned for those that
> > > hold to it. They feel attached to their view and it may seem
> > > rude to disagree with another; but if we think of the
> > > consequences if they don't change it will motivate us to do
> > > anything we can to help. If we can't help that is fine- but we
> > > should be wary of any thinking that might hinder our compassion
> > > or slow our efforts to explain.
> > > I have consistently found that even when someone strongly
> > > disagrees about rebirth and kamma if one gives enough detailed
> > > explanantion a slight positive impact is made- just enough to
> > > dislodge a smidgen of clinging. This can be built on. Not only
> > > that but understanding kamma and vipaka is essential for any
> > > higher level of understanding - let alone satipatthana.
> > > robert
> > > 
> > 	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  robert I agree with your views ... and
> > I share your sentiment onthe subject... would you care to give example
> > of
> > the explanation used in detailed form..... to better convince the wrong
> > viewed party ?thank you in advance
> > 
> > 	Loke CL

 
5724 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 4:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Dear Tom,
Mike will remember a long discussion thread that we all found
helpful. It was a translation of the Vangakas - cheating
dhammas- written by an esteemed sri lankan monk and translated
by Gayan (a group member). These are states of mind that look
kusala(wholesome) but are imitations and are in fact akusala.
You can go to this page
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POSTS%20LINKS
and go to "cheating" where you will find links to these posts
3543, 3544, 3545
I sent some of the notes to Sujin Boriharnwanaket and she asked
the pali commitee to translate the original commentary (a very
pithy summary which the monk used for his expanded work).
You can see this at http://www.dhammastudy.com/vancaka.html
robert



 
5725 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 5:42pm
Subject: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  Dear Erik, Dan, Herman, C.L., Tom A, Num and all,

Firstly, many thanks everyone for all the recent great posts which I've really
appreciated! I have dozens that I would like to respond to but simply don't
have time before our trip on Friday. (We'll be in Europe, Jon for 2wks and me
for 4..will be checking in when we have the chance and not at the top of a
Swiss mountain!)

Back to my ambitious heading...... It is only through the Buddha's teachings
that we have the chance to understand more and more precisely the difference
between wholesome (kusala) mental states and unwholesome (akusala) ones and to
know these as not-self.  We could not learn these details in Christianity.

At any moment of wholesomeness (whether sila, dana, samatha or vipassana) there
is awareness (sati) which is mindful of the wholesome state. In order for
wholesome states to be developed, there has to also be the understanding of
these realities (either at the level of samatha or vipassana) from the very
beginning.

At this moment, after seeing an object, is there any knowing whether the mental
states which follow are kusala or akusala? When we give a present or show
kindness, how much understanding is there of what is skilful and what is
unskilful? 

For most of us, most the time, there is very, very little. There may be some
concern about the dosa (aversion) or strong lobha (attachment), but how much
understanding is there of the moments with moha (ignorance)? This is why I said
to Sukin that just realizing there is 'moha, moha, everywhere' shows there is
some real appreciation of the truth! Most the time, the realities are clouded
over and we live in a world of stories and concepts as Nina just discussed.

In the commentary to the Brahmajala Sutta (B.Bodhi transl p.141) there are
comments on the reasons for wrong views (ditthigata) and how they result in
'dogmas' :

'What are the eight standpoints (i.e. grounds for views)?  The aggregates,
ignorance, contact, perception, initial thought, unwise reflection, evil
friends, and the voice of another....'

'"....They (the standpoints) are 'thus misapprehended' (evamparamattha) i.e.
apprehended again and again with an unquestioning mind and consummated with the
conclusion 'This alone is truth, any other view is false'. "

(Note this last phrase relates to wrong views only!).

One of the (wrong) doctrines discussed is that of 'The doctrines of endless
equivocation'. This is' equivocation through endless views and speech' in one
who 'does not himself declare anything as wholesome or unwholesome' and who
does not understand the courses of wholesome and unwholesome kamma. I like this
quote (p.166):

'When asked: 'Is this wholesome?", he says: 'I do not take it thus.' Asked:
'What, 's it then unwholesome?', he says: 'I do not take it that way.'  Asked;
'is it then something other than these two?', he says: 'Nor do I take it in
some other way.' Asked; 'If it is neither of these three, what is your
opinion?", he says: 'I do not say that it is not.'  Asked : 'In your opinion is
it neither this nor that?' he says: 'Nor do I say that it is neither this nor
that.'  Thus he resorts to equivocation and does not take a stand on any single
side.'

Many very highly 'intelligent' friends of mine hold similar views and do not
accept that even strong anger is necessarily unwholesome. We read that all
wrong views are bound up with the idea of self and thus it is only the
sotapanna who has eradicated the wrong view of self and all other wrong views.

If there is no understanding of the difference between any moments of kusala
and akusala, it is very easy to follow a concentration practice (TM or any
supposedly Buddhist practice) and to obtain many apparent benefits and altered
mental states. However, in order for it to be the development of samatha or
vipassana at any given moment, the mental states must be wholesome and panna
(rt understandingat the respective level) has to be present. 

Like Rob, I find there are many moments of reflection on death in a day, not by
any special trying, but just by conditions because of reading and hearing
useful comments. Death can come at any moment and all the possessions and
people and other objects of attachment can be lost at any time. Indeed fire is
on our heads and this may be a condition for panna (wisdom) to arise. 

There may be wholesome mental states when we reflect like this but  not
necessarily. There can also be concentrating on the topic of death or breath or
any other object of samatha in a quiet placeand it may seem that samatha is
being developed. 

But even at the very beginning, such as now, is there really any knowing of
which moments are wholesome and calm and which aren't? Personally, speaking, I
find it very easy to be deluded, to concentrate with a deep-rooted idea of self
and to take the pleasant experiences for being the development of calm.

Erik, when we are concerned to get rid of 'dukkha' doesn't this show the
clinging? In an absolute sense all realities are unsatisfactory (dukkha), even
the blissful ones, and for this reason we need to know and develop detachment
not just from those we find unpleasant but from whatever is conditioned now.

With this in mind, even though there can of course be moments of kusala and
even of wisdom when one takes any kind of intoxicants or mind-altering drugs, 
the reason it is strongly advised against is because it makes the job harder
and there are likely for most people to be more conditions for other kinds of
unwholesomeness. There are fewer conditons for hiri and otappa (moral shame and
dread) and other wholesome states to arise at these times.

When we listen to a piece of music by Bach or Beethoven, it will depend on what
musical understanding we have as to how it is appreciated and whether it is
appreciated in the way the composer intended or not. And so when we read a
sutta, what is understood now with some appreciation of abhidhamma may be
different from before or it may just be a little deeper. Along the way,
understanding is bound to see some wrong views and interpretations we have,
however, and this is really a cause for joy to my mind!

I hope I haven't jumped around too much. I may not be able to write anything
more except for short simple notes 'til my return, but  you're all in very good
company and I look forward to enjoying all the posts while I'm away.  (At this
stage of total home and office chaos, I'd be just as happy to stay put , but
those are some proliferations which are not worth pursuing!!

Best wishes,
Sarah




 
5726 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 5:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sarah's nephew TOM & Betty's book

 
  Dear Tom P.,

--- Tom wrote: >
> 
> Firstly apologies for not posting anything since I registered to 
> become a part of this group. I have had a look at some discussions of 
> which some makes absolutely no sense whilst others I can understand 
> amounts of.

Super! It may be helpful for you to read the posts under the title 'New to the
List and new to Buddhism' where several people gave good advice to someone else
in a similar postion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL%20POST%20LINKS

others her may have recommended books for beginners with a webpage link (Rob or
Binh?)
. The 
> analysis below about what I do and don't know about is essentially 
> correct, although I did read some Buddhist readings on Consciousness 
> and Social construction of the Self for a Philosophy course as a part 
> of my degree.

Interesting and you've always reflected a lot I know.
> 
> I have a book called 'Teach yourself Buddhism' which I am gradually 
> working through. My interest at present is purely investigative 
> though this may not remain the case.

This is a healthy approach and I look f/w to chatting more when I see you very
soon in Sussex!!

There is a glossary for the pali terms:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/glossary_of_pali_terms.htm

but just read what makes some sense and any questions, however basic (usually
the best) will be very welcome by everyone....:(as Jon said, for every question
asked there will be many lurkers with the same one in mind at any time I'm
sure!)

love,
Sarah



 
5727 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Dear Tom A,

--- Tom Anderson wrote: > I think it is extremely difficult to
remain grateful to the guru 
> types who daily try to get us to subscribe to their methods of 
> enriching them! But you are so right. If H. H. the Dalai Lama can be 
> grateful to Mao, then, surely all these petty thieves are sent to us 
> to help us see the Way more clearly.
> 
> Sometimes I ruminate on some aspect of the greed-drived guru-types 
> out to rip off the ignorant masses and then find in that some little 
> thing the Buddha said. Increasingly I am overwhelmed by the 
> brilliance of the elegant insight of the Dharma. 
> 
> This news group is such a blessing.

Great contributions to the list!
.....and don't we listen to and follow whatever teachings seem 'right' at the
time? Again, 'our' wrong views and ignorance that are the real problem....not
the guru or Mao.

Obviously there were conditions and understanding to turn away from TM and join
us here...it's a blessing for many of us!

Sarah


 
5728 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loke's Christian Friends (was RE: Digest Number 434 _

 
  Hi  Tai Eng,

Hope you got help with this and perhaps you would let us know what your
interest is!
--- "Lim Tai Eng."  wrote: > I would appreciate if you
could email the e-file Beyond Belief by Bhante A.L

You also wrote to us off-list about a problem you're having with the
'itinerary' for Binh message which seemed to be sent by you but wasn't!!:

>Sorry to bother you again.  Just to caution the list that I have recently
received the message again.  This is the fourth time I received the message and
the sender is myself.  This time it contain virus.  This was detected by the
computer system.  I just would hope that they do not sent to the dsg list
again.
I do not know whether it is possible to find out who the actual sender is.  I
am in the process of finding out.

Anyway, it hasn't been sent to the list again and I hope you sort out your
problem. I know nothing about technical problems! 

In the meantime, perhaps you'd tell us a little about yourself. Are you in
Australia in perth (as on the itinerary0 or where? Tell us about your group.

Best wishes,
Sarah

p.s hope this goes to the real 'you' and not the fake sender!



 
5729 From: Tom Anderson 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  Mondy-making machine would be my first guess. Dooms-Day groups tend 
not to be profitable ;0) -- Increasingly, from what I can discern 
from the internet, the organization is attracting fewer members (no 
doubt because it costs about 1,000 USD to learn the initial 
technique -- it used to cost about 35 USD). TM bears many 
resemblances to Buddhist ideas. But Mahesh claimed to have gotten the 
inspiration for TM whilst visiting the shrine of Lakshmi in southern 
India. [This was published in a book by Joyce Collins-Smith "Call No 
Man Master".] You can check out the activities of the organization at 
TranceNet. 

There are many guru-types of characters endeavouring to be as 
successful as Mahesh (he is extremely charming in public and can be 
ruthless in private). It might not be such a bad idea to be aware of 
how they have borrowed/distorted the Buddhadhamma for their own 
purposes.

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> this sounds pretty scary... especially about the soverign 
nation..... it has
> doomsday occult written all over it.......or money making 
machine....
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to 
dhammastudygroup
> > 
> > TM (transcendental meditation) is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's way of 
> > bilking folks out of both trust and money. TM is a mantra 
meditation. 
> > One thinks the mantra as easily as any other thought: the result 
is, 
> > like samatha, a sense of quietness, at which point, one comes 
back to 
> > the mantra at that quieter sense of thought. 
> > 
> > Trouble is, this leads to a very dissociated mental condition, a 
> > spacey feeling, a slight disorientation, a dreamy kind of 
approach to 
> > what others consider ordinary reality. (A safer form is Dr. 
Benson's 
> > Relaxation Response; but the dissociative tendency is still a 
part of 
> > the problem.) 
> > 
> > There are several sites that take a very critical look at TM. I 
can 
> > post them if you are interested. Initially, TM feels good and 
seems 
> > to be quite helpful, but one is increasingly drawn (by these 
> > feelings) into a desire for more involvement. [Hence, into 
greater 
> > dissociation from the concerns of life and concerns for others.]
> > 
> > Maharishi has turned this into a $3+billion enterprise! 
Presently, he 
> > is trying to establish his own soverign nation in a poor South 
> > American country. 
> > 
> > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> > wrote:
> > > what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ? Or 
> > others ?
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Loke CL
> > > 

 
5730 From: Erik 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:55pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:

> Erik, when we are concerned to get rid of 'dukkha' doesn't this 
show the
> clinging?

To follow the same logic, when the Buddha taught a path for 
eradicating dukkha that he was promoting clinging.

 In an absolute sense all realities are unsatisfactory (dukkha), even
> the blissful ones, and for this reason we need to know and develop 
detachment
> not just from those we find unpleasant but from whatever is 
conditioned now.

Of course. However you miss one important point. When akusala arises 
to such a strong degree it wipes out all your lofty aspirations, what 
then? Unless we are arahants, there will be dukka, very much so in 
the conventional sense. How do we deal with this?

There have to be ways of dealing with dukkha *right now* that let you 
simply cope until the strength to overcome them fully through 
insight. And insight will never have cause to arise when the mind is 
constantly overwhelmed by the hindrances. Impossible! Hence, the 
Buddha taught the instructions as found in the Sabbasava Sutta, 
examples like "tolerating" etc.

> With this in mind, even though there can of course be moments of 
kusala and
> even of wisdom when one takes any kind of intoxicants or mind-
altering drugs, 
> the reason it is strongly advised against is because it makes the 
job harder
> and there are likely for most people to be more conditions for 
other kinds of
> unwholesomeness. There are fewer conditons for hiri and otappa 
(moral shame and
> dread) and other wholesome states to arise at these times.

"Drugs" is an awfully broad category, Sarah. Do you include serotonin 
and dopamine as drugs (scientists certainy do)? These are native 
neurotransmitters, and have a very big impact on mood, for example. 
And yet I am not aware that serotonin is a cause for ahirika or 
anottapa. Alcohol, and most stupifacient drugs, certainly. And that 
fits, because the precept against intoxicants mentions anything 
causing heedlessness.

But stupifacient drugs operate under a completely different mechanism 
than the ones I mention, which include MDMA, LSD, psilocybin, 
mescaline and their very near cousins. If anything hiri and ottapa 
and sati are increased with the class of drugs known as psychedelics. 
Furthermore, it becomes possible to expose deep layers of 
psychological holding and release them through this practice, which 
is how I have used them the past twenty years or so. In the case of 
MDMA, I consider this a perfect adjunct to practice, because it is so 
versatile. 

For example, if you know what you're doing you can use this as a very 
nice way to spend several hours meditating on the Bhrahma viharas, 
streaming tears of gratitude for your teachers and sending tidal 
waves of metta to everyone around you--and if that isn't 
extraordinarily high kusala I don't know what is. Those effects carry 
over long beyond the session itself, and can leave one with something 
like a "benchmark" for what really super-powerful metta feels like. 
That practice was one of the practices that helped me get rid of 
scads of ragged, nasty karma and even more anger I'd been carryng for 
years (therapists were using MDMD to help patients get past painful 
emotional blockages until it was made illegal in the '80s to further 
the revolting War on Some Drugs), and acted as a support condition 
for my learning samatha as well as the meaning of conventional 
Bodhicitta. And, it served as a support conditions feeding into 
mental and bodily pliancy, thus served as a direct support for 
samatha ("training wheels" I call it).

I am not advocating anyone else do what I've done here because this 
has come about after 20 years of research into traditional uses of 
drugs like this (which stretch back 7,000 years in North America--the 
peyote cults, for example). This is very much a legitimate area of 
spirituality and will only become moreso as people lose their wrong 
views about thise things. Huston Smith has a wonderful new book out 
discussing pharmacology & spiritual experience. Since the mind and 
body mutually condition one another, using a chemical route is just 
as legitimate as any other if done with Right View.

 
5731 From: Tom Anderson 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:54pm
Subject: wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  One of the difficulties upon which I often find myself dwelling is 
exactly that: in the beginning of TM I felt so blesssed to have, as 
it were, gotten into something so incredibly wonderful at the 
beginning! (Mahesh had only been teaching about 10 years when I 
started.) It took a long time before I began to feel I had made quite 
a blunder; but by this time Mahesh had begun to change the original 
teaching: he started "selling" siddhis (and trandmarked the 
misspelling 'sidhi' for the purpose).

But I also developed a keen sense of suspicion as a result. I hold my 
own observational abilities as suspect as any guru/teacher I 
encounter. Like the man from Missouri, I really have a strict "show 
me" policy.

I can therefore be grateful to Mahesh. Perhaps, in a similar kind of 
way, it is possible to be grateful for all the wrongs into which I 
have blundered, owing to karma or lack of awareness or faulty 
discernment. It hasn't been easy. It has been painful. But I have 
found myself in this company: how fortunate I am, indeed!

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  
wrote:
> Dear Tom A,
> 
> --- Tom A wrote: > I think it is extremely difficult 
to
> remain grateful to the guru 
> > types who daily try to get us to subscribe to their methods of 
> > enriching them! But you are so right. If H. H. the Dalai Lama can 
be 
> > grateful to Mao, then, surely all these petty thieves are sent to 
us 
> > to help us see the Way more clearly.
> > 
> > Sometimes I ruminate on some aspect of the greed-drived guru-
types 
> > out to rip off the ignorant masses and then find in that some 
little 
> > thing the Buddha said. Increasingly I am overwhelmed by the 
> > brilliance of the elegant insight of the Dharma. 
> > 
> > This news group is such a blessing.
> 
> Great contributions to the list!
> .....and don't we listen to and follow whatever teachings 
seem 'right' at the
> time? Again, 'our' wrong views and ignorance that are the real 
problem....not
> the guru or Mao.
> 
> Obviously there were conditions and understanding to turn away from 
TM and join
> us here...it's a blessing for many of us!
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 

 
 
 
 
5732 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Kom

--- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > 
> 
> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > great kusala that dana, sila and samatha are.  Every opportunity for
> the
> > development of kusala of any kind is to be welcomed, and any kusala
> > developed will be a support for the future development of awareness. 
> > There is a connection, but it is a question as to exactly what that
> > connection is.
> 
> I would be grateful if you expand on what this connection is.
> 
> kom

I'm not sure that I could do this!

My intention was merely to suggest that, while the 2 are not totally
unconnected, the relationship between samatha and satipatthana is nowhere
near as direct or immediate as I understand Dan to be suggesting.

I believe there are a number of ways in which present kusala can be
conditioned by past kusala, but I think you would be better able than I am
to suggest what they are.  Let's hear it, Kom!

Jon



 
5733 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:11pm
Subject: Thailand - july 28 to August 3 or 4

 
  Dear group,
Cybele just mentioned to me that a very kind friend of hers
would like to visit Thailand one day. So as I am going on the
dates above (and possibly in september too) if anyone is
thinking of going in the near future I would love to meet you
there. I'll be meeting with Khun Sujin and other friends and all
are welcome to join in the discussions - plus dinner in the
evening etc.
best wishes
robert


 
5734 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: Paying Respect

 
  Dear Loke,

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> 	"Why do we kneel and bring our foreheads down to the back of 
our
> hands to pay respects to monks and our teachers....?"

The form of paying respects are not as important as the mental states of 
the person paying the respects.  Different people pay the respects 
differently (including Anjali, doing what you said, doing what the Thais doi, 
doing what the Nepalese do, giving flowers, incense, flags, etc.)

We pay respects for people deserving of respects, meaning anybody with 
wholesome qualities, and anybody who are our benefactors.  We give the 
highest respect to the Buddha  because of his unparalleled wholesome 
qualities and beneficiency.  We pay respects to our parents because there 
are no higher benefactors to us.

kom

 
5735 From: Dan 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:39pm
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana [Jon]

 
  Dear Jon,
Please be patient with me, Jon. I may not be the brightest bulb in 
the drawer, but I do want to understand. You seem to disagree that 
samatha can support and strengthen awareness, i.e. that it is 
impossible for samatha to help sharpen awareness. I really must 
apologize for my thick skull, but I just don't see how what you wrote 
supports the argument that it is impossible for samatha to help 
sharpen awareness.

> The prerequisites for the arising of awareness are:
> -  having met the dhamma, listened to it and considered it at length
> -  having understood correctly what awareness is, its function and
> characteristic and what can be the object of awareness
> -  applying what one has heard and correctly understood.

Or, "The voice of another and wise attention." According to 
Visudhimagga, the proximate cause for understanding is concentration 
(Vism. XIV). Also, the hindrances obscure reality, making it 
difficult to discern the lakhana in dhammas. Samatha entails 
cultivation of concentration and temporarily dissipates the 
hindrances, making it easier to discern lakhana, thereby sharpening 
awareness, provided your "prerequisites" are also met. In this 
fashion, samatha supports and strengthens awareness. I can't see how 
this contradicts what you wrote. There MUST be a contradiction, 
though, for your contention to stand.

> As regards samatha, if we see the importance and urgency of 
studying the
> reality of the present moment, it is not necessary to think in 
terms of a
> specific role for samatha in that studying, any more than it is to 
think
> in terms of a role for dana or sila.  

This is beside the point. There is marked difference between "not 
necessary to think in terms of a specific role for samatha" 
and "impossible for samatha to sharpen awareness." 

> There is a connection, but it is a question as to exactly what that
> connection is.

That's right. There is a connection, and that connection is more 
than "no connection." What do you say the connection is?

Dan

 
5736 From: robert 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 11:39pm
Subject: Fwd: Nibbana As A Stimulus Can Condition Re: Robert Kirkpatrick's Reply To Steve

 
  ---  <> wrote:


Dear Robert

How are you? You are right. Nibbana as a stimulus can 
condition us.

The only thing I could add to your message is that nibbana is
not only the object of the transworldly consciousness 
(lokuttara citta), but also a stimulus for our sensuous healthy 
minds with wisdom (kamavacara �anasampayuttam kusala cittam).

�ana here could be cintamaya �ana or anumana �ana.

You might like to read the verse 1 of Metta Suttam, Kuddakapaatha, 
Khuddakanikaya.

The relevant clause in the verse 1 of Metta Suttam is as follows.

"yanta santam padam abhisamecca", padam being nibbana.

The concept of nibbana, when it is a stimulus for our natural minds, 
could motivate us to strive for it (sammavayama). That is how nibbana 
conditions our thinking, actions and other path-specific mental 
components at the worldly level.

You might like also to double check "aramana paccayo" in Patthana.

You should find "sabbe dhamma manovi��anadhatuya ....", nibbana
being one of dhamma as stimuli.


With regards


Suan Lu Zaw


http://www.bodhiology.org/





---  Robert wrote:
> I just thought: when I said "Nibbana is unconditioned and 
> unconditioning"; certainly the unconditioned is correct but as it 
is 
> an object for the lokuttara citta it must be conditioning in some 
> ways.
> I think it conditions the (future) end of conditions.
> robert
> 
> 
>  Robert wrote:
> > ---  "Stephen Parfitt"  wrote:
> > > 
> > > I've read what Nina has to say about kiriyacittas several times 
> and 
> > she says that they are neither cause nor result, to my simple 
mind 
> > this suggests that they are unconditioned and unconditioning, but 
> > these adjectives apply only to the paramattha dhamma of Nibbana, 
> > don't they?
> > _______________\
> > Dear Steve,
> >  Hope you don't mind me adding a little to Amara's answer.
> > There are different types of cittas -some are resultant, vipaka 
> > (sorry for the pali, Dan). Others, the akusala and kusala cittas, 
> are 
> > causal - they are those during which new kamma is being made. 
There 
> > are also kiriya cittas which arise during every mind process 
which 
> > are neither causal nor resultant - the kiriya cittas.
> > However, this does not mean they are unconditioned or 
> unconditioning, 
> > which only applies to Nibbana as you say. The Buddha explained 
> > Abhidhamma in detail and in the Patthana we learn of 24 
conditions. 
> > The kiriya citta are conditioned by several of these conditions 
and 
> > likewise condition other cittas. But they are not vipaka, nor are 
> > they akusala or kusala. 
> > Very useful to study this to see how absolutely anatta 
> > (uncontrollable and conditioned) are all these moments.
> > robert
--- End forwarded message ---

 
5737 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 0:21am
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  Dear Jon,

Unfortunately, I only have some suspicion about this connection.  I will 
give you some logics, and then anyone can draw their own conclusion:

1) Alala (the Jhana teacher of the Buddha) had the wisdom to develop 
Jhana and concentration to the highest degree, had the accumulation such 
that had he listened from the Buddha, he would have penetrated the true 
characteristics of dhamma, but yet he didn't.  (Jhana Samadhi + enough 
accumulated panna from the past != enlightenment w/o the teacher's 
agitation of that accumulated panna in the present life)

2) There are stories about those Bikkhu who had developed Jhana to the 
highest degree, had listened to the Buddha in that life, but yet didn't 
penetrate the characteristics of dhamma (Jhana Samadhi + not enough 
acumulated panna != enlightenment)

3)  There are stories about those who penetrated the dhamma while 
listening to the Buddha through the following series:
a) The buddha/disciple explained the topics related to what the audience 
will be inclined to hearing to condition the kusala mental states of the 
audience
b) The buddha/disciple explained the 4 noble truths or something related 
allowing the audience to penetrate the true characteristics.
(maliable mental states + enough past accumulated panna + agitation of 
that panna = enlightenment)

4) I believe there are suttas that exhort people to do all different levels of 
kusala (Sila, Dana, Bhavana) because they are factors to Vimokha.

5) By way of patthana, these kusala dhammas (one-pointedness + pana) 
during satipathanna are very intertwined in causing each other to arise 
and supporting each other.  Without one, the other doesn't arise.  I have 
no doubt that they must support one another.

Hence, my suspicion is this: it is obvious that without understanding and 
penetration of what dhammas (and the path) truly is, it is impossible to 
attain enlightenment even if you have samathi at the highest level.  
However, kusala at all levels supports the development of the path.  Then, 
it is important to develop panna first, and then does any levels of kusala 
as long as you know (be honest to yourself) that it is kusala.

kom




--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Kom
> 
> --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote: > 
> > 
> > --- Jonothan Abbott  
wrote:
> > > great kusala that dana, sila and samatha are.  Every opportunity for
> > the
> > > development of kusala of any kind is to be welcomed, and any 
kusala
> > > developed will be a support for the future development of 
awareness. 
> > > There is a connection, but it is a question as to exactly what that
> > > connection is.
> > 
> > I would be grateful if you expand on what this connection is.
> > 
> > kom
> 
> I'm not sure that I could do this!
> 
> My intention was merely to suggest that, while the 2 are not totally
> unconnected, the relationship between samatha and satipatthana is 
nowhere
> near as direct or immediate as I understand Dan to be suggesting.
> 
> I believe there are a number of ways in which present kusala can be
> conditioned by past kusala, but I think you would be better able than I 
am
> to suggest what they are.  Let's hear it, Kom!
> 
> Jon

 
5738 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 0:29am
Subject: Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  The other thought that occured to me is that these conditions are 
intricate, and only the Buddha can fully know how these dhammas (panna 
and samathi) support one another.  I am suspicious that I will never find a 
fully-satisfactory answer to this question.  All I can do is:
1) Believe in my own experience or conviction
2) Believe in others

Both of them are prone to faulty logics and wrong accumulation.  In my 
mind, however, there is no dispute that panna is the leading factor in the 
enlightenment.

kom

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Kom
> to suggest what they are.  Let's hear it, Kom!
> 
> Jon

 
5739 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 4:09am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] wrong concentration(Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  --- Tom Anderson wrote:

> Increasingly I am overwhelmed by the brilliance of 
> the elegant insight of the Dharma. 
> This news group is such a blessing.

Couldn't agree more, Tom--good to see you here.

mike


 
5740 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 4:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joining Realities into a "Whole" (From 'Cetasikas')

 
  Hi, Nina -

       Thank you for the detailed reply. I do understand you. My main point, 
I think, was the role of memory in grouping of mind-phases and their objects 
into a conceptual whole.

With metta,
Howard



> op 18-06-2001 21:37 schreef Howard op Howard:
> 
> > Hi, Nina (and all) -
> > 
> > I have started reading (and thoroughly enjoying) 'Cetasikas'. In the
> > introduction, you write the following:
> > 
> > Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise and fall away extremely 
> rapidly.
> > When right understanding has not been developed we cannot distinguish 
> between
> > different objects experienced through the different doorways. We are 
> inclined
> > to join different realities together into a 'whole", and thus we cannot
> > realize their arising and falling away, their impermanence, and their 
> nature
> > of non-self. 
> > 
> > I am trying to understand *where* the attempted joining of different
> > realities occurs. If cittas truly occur as separate, discrete states, 
> then it
> > would seem that such a "joining" would have to occur within a single 
> citta,
> > in which case it is a processing of *memories* of preceding cittas and 
> their
> > cetasikas. Is this so?
> Dear Howard,
> Joining realities into a whole.
> 
> Does this not happen time and again in our life? We read unpleasant or sad
> news and immediately we think with aversion about the story we read, or
> about the person who wrote to us, we are distressed by concepts. Or, we read
> good news and we are carried away by the story, are delighted. In reality
> there is seeing which sees just colour or visible object. Seeing is vipaka,
> result of kamma, but seeing only knows colour, it does not know whether the
> object is pleasant or unpleasant. Then there are after seeing has fallen
> away other types of cittas which recognize the meaning of the letters and
> other ones which think of the story that was written, and the thinking goes
> on and on. It seems that everything is known in one moment, seeing and
> recognizing the letters and knowing the meaning, but this is not so. We join
> as it were many different phenomena into a whole: the world, we, ourselves
> who are unhappy or happy. Indeed, sa~n~naa, remmebrance, which accompanies
> each citta plays an important part, but also other cetasikas.
> We may have read many times in the Kindred Sayings on Sense (K. IV, Ch 3, §
> 82) the sutta on the World, but it is always new, always fresh since it
> reminds us of the truth:
> Then a certain brother came to see the Exalted One...Seated at one side that
> brother said to the Exalted One:-
> Œ ³The world!The world!² is the saying,lord. How far, lord, does this saying
> go?¹
> ŒIt crumbles away, brethren. Therefore it is called ³the world.² What
> crumbles away? The eye... objects...eye-consciousness...etc. It crumbles
> away, brethren. Therefore, it is called ³the world² Œ
> It is so good to be reminded of realities, it can help us in times of
> disease, suffering, affliction, loss of dear people. When there is
> satipatthana the world starts to crumble away: only one object through one
> doorway at a time appears.That is reality, no use to dwell on and on on what
> has fallen away.  
> A long time ago when I was in India with Khun Sujin, Sarah, Jonothan and
> others we were having tea in a garden in Benares, discussing the Dhamma
> (happy surprise, several of them are on this list, it is like meeting old
> friends again). Afterwards we were thinking of the story of the garden and
> all the people in it drinking tea, but, as Khun Sujin explained, there is
> only one moment of citta thinking of this story, this whole, and when the
> thinking falls away, the story is over; where are all the people? It is a
> kind of death. At the last moment of life the dying-consciousness falls away
> and then also the story of our life we found so important is gone. The late
> Phra Dhammadharo kept on reminding us of this. (By the way, this is
> mindfulness of death, marana sati, Robert was referring to this as something
> that is always with him. Please, Robert, I like a reminder, can you add
> something?)
> Past experiences have been accumulated and since each citta is succeeded by
> a following one they can be remembered vividly, even now. I still remember
> so clearly the garden in Benares, sitting there talking Dhamma.
> After a long stay in Sri Lanka Sarah brought me to the airport and since I
> was sad to take leave she reminded me of the Benares story: all the people
> in Sri Lanka we met during these weeks are a story we are thinking of, just
> a moment of citta which thinks, and then the story disappears with the citta
> which falls away. No more.
> Thus, if we realize that there are in the ultimate sense only elements, no
> people, no world, we may begin to understand the difference between the
> moments we think of concepts and the moments that just one reality appears
> at a time.
> For more explanation you may like to read the article on Zolag web
> Understanding Reality, about eating a duck¹s foot. We think, I am eating a
> duck¹s foot but there are many different realities: seeing, visible object,
> attention to shape and form, tasting, thinking of flavour.
> Nina.   
>        
> > 
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5741 From: jlsallis   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  >Hi, Judy,
>
>Where do you live by the way?


---Denver, Colorado, USA.  And I'm sure I'll learn a lot!
Judy



>Best wishes,
>Sarah

 
5742 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 4:56am
Subject: Copy of a Post Mailed Thirty-Two hours Ago

 
  Hi, all -

       I mailed the following yesterday, but I haven't seen it yet. My 
apologies to any of you who have already seen this:
************************************

Hi, Robert (and Jon) -

In a message dated 6/19/01 4:20:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert writes:



> Dear howard and jon,
> Could I quote a sutta which may have bearing on your
> conversation>
> > > 
> > > � � � � � � HOward: � Now, this last material points out that the
> > hindrances are
> > > hindrances 
> > > to concentration.
> 
> > JON:Agreed.
> > 
> > � Howard: The previous material of the Upanisa Sutta points out
> > > the 
> > > prerequisite status of samatha for vipassana
> _____
> > 
> Jon: � This point I need to consider. � I am wondering if you are
> > perhaps equating
> > concentration with samatha. � The 2 are not always used
> > synonymously
> > (although sometimes they are). � Concentration is the normal
> > translation
> > for samadhi, the cetasika that is one of the Universals. 
> > Samatha is
> > usually translated as tranquillity, calmness or the like,
> > since that is
> > its distinguishing feature. � Of course, it is developed by
> > concentration
> > on an appropriate subject (kammatthana), but it is a
> > particular kind of
> > development of concentration, accompanied by panna and leading
> > to the
> > tranquillity that comes from being temporarily freed from
> > kilesa.
> > 
> > References to concentration are sometimes references to
> > concentration of
> > the particular kind that accompanies panna of the level of
> > vipassana. 
> > This is possibly how your last reference is to be read
> > (concentration that
> > is ‘for the ending of the effluents’).
> _______________________________________________
> I think Jon has explained this correctly. Here is the samadhi
> sutta. Note the different types of concentration. (the 3rd type
> is that associated with satipatthana and the last type with
> advanced stages of vipassana)
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
> Samadhi Sutta
> Concentration
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which
> four? There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is
> the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued,
> leads to the ending of the effluents. 
> 
> 1."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
> now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
> sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
> remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from
> withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With
> the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters &
> remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of
> composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought &
> evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he
> remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive
> to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which
> the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a
> pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain --
> as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he
> enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
> mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development
> of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a
> pleasant abiding in the here & now. 
> 
> 2. "And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
> vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception
> of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any
> hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is
> the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he
> develops a brightened mind. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> attainment of knowledge & vision. 
> 
> 3."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is
> the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
> known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
> known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
> subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they
> persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
> mindfulness & alertness. 
> 
> 4."And what is the development of concentration that, when
> developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There
> is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling
> away with reference to the five aggregates for
> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such
> its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination,
> such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
> origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of
> concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the
> ending of the effluents. 
> 
> "These are the four developments of concentration. 
> 
> "And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's
> Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn V.3]: 
> 
> 'He who has fathomed
> the far & near in the world,
> for whom there is nothing
> perturbing in the world -- 
> � � � his vices evaporated,
> � � � undesiring, untroubled,
> � � � � � � � at peace -- 
> he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
> � � � � � � � � � � � aging.'" 
> 
> 


=================================
� � � � � � Thank you (both) for the valid points. For some reason, I have not yet 
seen the post of yours, Jon, that Robert quotes here.
� � � � � � With regard to concentation and calm not being one and the same, I 
certainly realize that. But they typically co-occur, and they are mutually 
supportive. Hence the association. The point of my post was that suppressing 
the hindrances leads to calm, which fosters concentration, which in turn 
enables further calm and further suppression of he hindrances, and the 
concentration is prerequisite for the development of insight, and, hence - 
bottom line - samatha and supression of hindrances lead to insight.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5743 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:30am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup

 
  pleaseelaborate more about the ruthless in private thingy....

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tom Anderson 
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 20, 2001 6:42 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup
> 
> Mondy-making machine would be my first guess. Dooms-Day groups tend 
> not to be profitable ;0) -- Increasingly, from what I can discern 
> from the internet, the organization is attracting fewer members (no 
> doubt because it costs about 1,000 USD to learn the initial 
> technique -- it used to cost about 35 USD). TM bears many 
> resemblances to Buddhist ideas. But Mahesh claimed to have gotten the 
> inspiration for TM whilst visiting the shrine of Lakshmi in southern 
> India. [This was published in a book by Joyce Collins-Smith "Call No 
> Man Master".] You can check out the activities of the organization at 
> TranceNet. 
> 
> There are many guru-types of characters endeavouring to be as 
> successful as Mahesh (he is extremely charming in public and can be 
> ruthless in private). It might not be such a bad idea to be aware of 
> how they have borrowed/distorted the Buddhadhamma for their own 
> purposes.
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> wrote:
> > this sounds pretty scary... especially about the soverign 
> nation..... it has
> > doomsday occult written all over it.......or money making 
> machine....
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:	Tom A [SMTP:Tom A]
> > > Sent:	Tuesday, June 19, 2001 6:38 PM
> > > > Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Fwd: RE: Welcome to 
> dhammastudygroup
> > > 
> > > TM (transcendental meditation) is Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's way of 
> > > bilking folks out of both trust and money. TM is a mantra 
> meditation. 
> > > One thinks the mantra as easily as any other thought: the result 
> is, 
> > > like samatha, a sense of quietness, at which point, one comes 
> back to 
> > > the mantra at that quieter sense of thought. 
> > > 
> > > Trouble is, this leads to a very dissociated mental condition, a 
> > > spacey feeling, a slight disorientation, a dreamy kind of 
> approach to 
> > > what others consider ordinary reality. (A safer form is Dr. 
> Benson's 
> > > Relaxation Response; but the dissociative tendency is still a 
> part of 
> > > the problem.) 
> > > 
> > > There are several sites that take a very critical look at TM. I 
> can 
> > > post them if you are interested. Initially, TM feels good and 
> seems 
> > > to be quite helpful, but one is increasingly drawn (by these 
> > > feelings) into a desire for more involvement. [Hence, into 
> greater 
> > > dissociation from the concerns of life and concerns for others.]
> > > 
> > > Maharishi has turned this into a $3+billion enterprise! 
> Presently, he 
> > > is trying to establish his own soverign nation in a poor South 
> > > American country. 
> > > 
> > > --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> > > wrote:
> > > > what is this TM ... what is it like ? Samatha ? Vipassana ? Or 
> > > others ?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Loke CL
> > > > 

 
5744 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:36am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Paying Respect

 
  Dear Kom,

	While as a practising Buddhist that pay respect out of our reverance
for the persons quality ... and the sort.... however... how do you explain
this (to the person asking's satisfaction and layman's plus non Buddhist or
atheist point of view) ? As in why do we do it ? How do you know that the
person is worthy ? I think I am referring to the Thera. Anjali practise...
Thank you for your time in replying....

May all of you be well and happy always

Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kom Tukovinit 
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:02 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Paying Respect
> 
> Dear Loke,
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
> > 	"Why do we kneel and bring our foreheads down to the back of 
> our
> > hands to pay respects to monks and our teachers....?"
> 
> The form of paying respects are not as important as the mental states of 
> the person paying the respects.  Different people pay the respects 
> differently (including Anjali, doing what you said, doing what the Thais
> doi, 
> doing what the Nepalese do, giving flowers, incense, flags, etc.)
> 
> We pay respects for people deserving of respects, meaning anybody with 
> wholesome qualities, and anybody who are our benefactors.  We give the 
> highest respect to the Buddha  because of his unparalleled wholesome 
> qualities and beneficiency.  We pay respects to our parents because there 
> are no higher benefactors to us.
> 
> kom

 
5745 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 10:11am
Subject: Re: Paying Respect

 
  Dear Loke,

You ask many questions not to answer your own questions but to 
answer others'.  Personally, if I fully understand why certain things are 
followed or why they are done, then I know:
1) when not to answer when the differences in understanding are too 
big or there is not enough time/patience to explain/hear it.
2) when to answer if it can be explained
3) how to explain by knowing the understanding and the inclinationation 
of the other party.  

Without all the ingredients, you may not be able to answer a question 
satisfactorily for the other person.  If you remember some of the suttas, 
even the Buddha, who had sappanuyutta-nanna, cannot explain certain 
concepts to everybody.

--- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > 
> ... how do you explain
> this (to the person asking's satisfaction and layman's plus non 
Buddhist or
> atheist point of view) ? As in why do we do it ? 

If you can't explain the concept of wholesome qualities, and why it is 
good to remind ourself of those good qualities, then you can't answer 
this question.

> How do you know that the
> person is worthy ? 

This is totally a personal judgement.  It is *possible* to be paying 
respect to somebody who is not worthy of such respects, since we can 
only make judgement on people on their *outward* appearances.  
Given some time, this worthiness would be clearer.  On the other hand, 
we can often be wrong.

For example, you may say "anumoddhana" to my efforts of writing this 
answer.  On the other hand, how do you know I am not writing this 
message out of conceit, coarse or subtle?  You don't: you can only guess.

> I think I am referring to the Thera. Anjali practise...

I don't know the historical traditions of this practice and why it is done in 
such a way, so I can't answer this question...

kom

 
5746 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:03am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Paying Respect

 
  Dear Kom,

	I trully understand your point of view but if you were trying to get
someone close to you to follow the Middle Path and Dhamma and to embrace the
Buddha's teaching... you tend to try your utmost best to answer all those
question (of course there are previous vipaka that might be hampering this
effort.....and we might not have control over it) and we will try every
means to lead them out of wrong views... try and fail but never fail to
try... of course there is always a limit... but are you telling me to give
up just like that... I am not about to ... considering I am still not
perfect with all my defilements and attachments.... so it will be helpful if
I can ideas and advice from Dhamma friends around the globe.... Thank you

p/s as I have no connection to the net in the office.... can provide the
suttas excerpt for me ?

Rgds,
Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kom Tukovinit 
> Sent:	Thursday, June 21, 2001 10:11 AM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Paying Respect
> 
> Dear Loke,
> 
> You ask many questions not to answer your own questions but to 
> answer others'.  Personally, if I fully understand why certain things are 
> followed or why they are done, then I know:
> 1) when not to answer when the differences in understanding are too 
> big or there is not enough time/patience to explain/hear it.
> 2) when to answer if it can be explained
> 3) how to explain by knowing the understanding and the inclinationation 
> of the other party.  
> 
> Without all the ingredients, you may not be able to answer a question 
> satisfactorily for the other person.  If you remember some of the suttas, 
> even the Buddha, who had sappanuyutta-nanna, cannot explain certain 
> concepts to everybody.
> 
> --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" > 
> > ... how do you explain
> > this (to the person asking's satisfaction and layman's plus non 
> Buddhist or
> > atheist point of view) ? As in why do we do it ? 
> 
> If you can't explain the concept of wholesome qualities, and why it is 
> good to remind ourself of those good qualities, then you can't answer 
> this question.
> 
> > How do you know that the
> > person is worthy ? 
> 
> This is totally a personal judgement.  It is *possible* to be paying 
> respect to somebody who is not worthy of such respects, since we can 
> only make judgement on people on their *outward* appearances.  
> Given some time, this worthiness would be clearer.  On the other hand, 
> we can often be wrong.
> 
> For example, you may say "anumoddhana" to my efforts of writing this 
> answer.  On the other hand, how do you know I am not writing this 
> message out of conceit, coarse or subtle?  You don't: you can only guess.
> 
> > I think I am referring to the Thera. Anjali practise...
> 
> I don't know the historical traditions of this practice and why it is done
> in 
> such a way, so I can't answer this question...
> 
> kom

 
 
5747 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 11:32am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, sa matha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  have a safe and enjoyable holiday.....

Loke CL

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Sarah Procter Abbott [SMTP:Sarah ]
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 20, 2001 5:43 PM
> Subject:	[DhammaStudyGroup] kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view,
> samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!
> 
> Dear Erik, Dan, Herman, C.L., Tom A, Num and all,
> 
> Firstly, many thanks everyone for all the recent great posts which I've
> really
> appreciated! I have dozens that I would like to respond to but simply
> don't
> have time before our trip on Friday. (We'll be in Europe, Jon for 2wks and
> me
> for 4..will be checking in when we have the chance and not at the top of a
> Swiss mountain!)
> 
> Back to my ambitious heading...... It is only through the Buddha's
> teachings
> that we have the chance to understand more and more precisely the
> difference
> between wholesome (kusala) mental states and unwholesome (akusala) ones
> and to
> know these as not-self.  We could not learn these details in Christianity.
> 
> At any moment of wholesomeness (whether sila, dana, samatha or vipassana)
> there
> is awareness (sati) which is mindful of the wholesome state. In order for
> wholesome states to be developed, there has to also be the understanding
> of
> these realities (either at the level of samatha or vipassana) from the
> very
> beginning.
> 
> At this moment, after seeing an object, is there any knowing whether the
> mental
> states which follow are kusala or akusala? When we give a present or show
> kindness, how much understanding is there of what is skilful and what is
> unskilful? 
> 
> For most of us, most the time, there is very, very little. There may be
> some
> concern about the dosa (aversion) or strong lobha (attachment), but how
> much
> understanding is there of the moments with moha (ignorance)? This is why I
> said
> to Sukin that just realizing there is 'moha, moha, everywhere' shows there
> is
> some real appreciation of the truth! Most the time, the realities are
> clouded
> over and we live in a world of stories and concepts as Nina just
> discussed.
> 
> In the commentary to the Brahmajala Sutta (B.Bodhi transl p.141) there are
> comments on the reasons for wrong views (ditthigata) and how they result
> in
> 'dogmas' :
> 
> 'What are the eight standpoints (i.e. grounds for views)?  The aggregates,
> ignorance, contact, perception, initial thought, unwise reflection, evil
> friends, and the voice of another....'
> 
> '"....They (the standpoints) are 'thus misapprehended' (evamparamattha)
> i.e.
> apprehended again and again with an unquestioning mind and consummated
> with the
> conclusion 'This alone is truth, any other view is false'. "
> 
> (Note this last phrase relates to wrong views only!).
> 
> One of the (wrong) doctrines discussed is that of 'The doctrines of
> endless
> equivocation'. This is' equivocation through endless views and speech' in
> one
> who 'does not himself declare anything as wholesome or unwholesome' and
> who
> does not understand the courses of wholesome and unwholesome kamma. I like
> this
> quote (p.166):
> 
> 'When asked: 'Is this wholesome?", he says: 'I do not take it thus.'
> Asked:
> 'What, 's it then unwholesome?', he says: 'I do not take it that way.'
> Asked;
> 'is it then something other than these two?', he says: 'Nor do I take it
> in
> some other way.' Asked; 'If it is neither of these three, what is your
> opinion?", he says: 'I do not say that it is not.'  Asked : 'In your
> opinion is
> it neither this nor that?' he says: 'Nor do I say that it is neither this
> nor
> that.'  Thus he resorts to equivocation and does not take a stand on any
> single
> side.'
> 
> Many very highly 'intelligent' friends of mine hold similar views and do
> not
> accept that even strong anger is necessarily unwholesome. We read that all
> wrong views are bound up with the idea of self and thus it is only the
> sotapanna who has eradicated the wrong view of self and all other wrong
> views.
> 
> If there is no understanding of the difference between any moments of
> kusala
> and akusala, it is very easy to follow a concentration practice (TM or any
> supposedly Buddhist practice) and to obtain many apparent benefits and
> altered
> mental states. However, in order for it to be the development of samatha
> or
> vipassana at any given moment, the mental states must be wholesome and
> panna
> (rt understandingat the respective level) has to be present. 
> 
> Like Rob, I find there are many moments of reflection on death in a day,
> not by
> any special trying, but just by conditions because of reading and hearing
> useful comments. Death can come at any moment and all the possessions and
> people and other objects of attachment can be lost at any time. Indeed
> fire is
> on our heads and this may be a condition for panna (wisdom) to arise. 
> 
> There may be wholesome mental states when we reflect like this but  not
> necessarily. There can also be concentrating on the topic of death or
> breath or
> any other object of samatha in a quiet placeand it may seem that samatha
> is
> being developed. 
> 
> But even at the very beginning, such as now, is there really any knowing
> of
> which moments are wholesome and calm and which aren't? Personally,
> speaking, I
> find it very easy to be deluded, to concentrate with a deep-rooted idea of
> self
> and to take the pleasant experiences for being the development of calm.
> 
> Erik, when we are concerned to get rid of 'dukkha' doesn't this show the
> clinging? In an absolute sense all realities are unsatisfactory (dukkha),
> even
> the blissful ones, and for this reason we need to know and develop
> detachment
> not just from those we find unpleasant but from whatever is conditioned
> now.
> 
> With this in mind, even though there can of course be moments of kusala
> and
> even of wisdom when one takes any kind of intoxicants or mind-altering
> drugs, 
> the reason it is strongly advised against is because it makes the job
> harder
> and there are likely for most people to be more conditions for other kinds
> of
> unwholesomeness. There are fewer conditons for hiri and otappa (moral
> shame and
> dread) and other wholesome states to arise at these times.
> 
> When we listen to a piece of music by Bach or Beethoven, it will depend on
> what
> musical understanding we have as to how it is appreciated and whether it
> is
> appreciated in the way the composer intended or not. And so when we read a
> sutta, what is understood now with some appreciation of abhidhamma may be
> different from before or it may just be a little deeper. Along the way,
> understanding is bound to see some wrong views and interpretations we
> have,
> however, and this is really a cause for joy to my mind!
> 
> I hope I haven't jumped around too much. I may not be able to write
> anything
> more except for short simple notes 'til my return, but  you're all in very
> good
> company and I look forward to enjoying all the posts while I'm away.  (At
> this
> stage of total home and office chaos, I'd be just as happy to stay put ,
> but
> those are some proliferations which are not worth pursuing!!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Sarah
> 

 
5748 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:31am
Subject: Another Question on Material from the Intro to Cetasikas

 
  Hi, Nina (and all) -

         In the introduction to Cetasikas, there is discussed a "sense door 
process" and a subsequent "mind door process" as follows:
************************
Summarizing the cittas which perform their function in a sense door process 
and then in a the mind-door process  when a rupa impinges on one of the 
sense-doors: 
> atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) 
> bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) 
> bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the 
> object is experienced through the sense  door) 
> five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pancadvaravajjana citta) 
> sense-cognition (dvi-pancavinnana, seeing-consciousness, etc.) 
> receiving-consciousness (sampaticchana-citta) 
> investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) 
> determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) 
> 7 javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of 
> non-arahats), 
> 2 registering-consciousness (tadarammana-cittas which may or may not arise).
> 

Then there are bhavanga-cittas and the last two of these, arising before the 
object is experienced through the mind-door, are specifically designated by a 
name. The process runs as follows: 
> bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) 
> bhavangupaccheda (which is in this case the mind-door through which the 
> cittas of the mind-door process will experience the object) 
> mind-door-adverting-ccnsciousnes (mano-dvaravajjana-citta) 
> 7 javanacitta 
> 2 tadarammana-cittas (which may or may not arise) .

After the mind-door process has been completed there are bhavanga-cittas 
again.  
*************************
       What is the ontological status of these processes, these sequences of 
cittas? Each citta is a so-called "ultimate reality". What about each entire 
process? Is it just the referent of a concept? Is it "less real" than the 
cittas which make it up? In what sense is the referent of a 
(grounded/non-imaginary) concept less real than the "ultimate realities" it 
subsumes? Is it just that the conceptual object is *constructed* by the mind 
from directly observed "ultimate realities" which are interrelated in some 
fashion? If that is, in fact, the answer, then it seems to me that it is not 
quite the case that the conceptual object is less *real* as much as it is the 
case that it is less *basic*, being reducible to ultimate objects. (All 
conditioned dhammas, of course, even the "ultimate realities", have a 
somewhat "compromised" reality in that they are not independent, separate 
entities, but are dependently arisen, empty of self.) What are your thoughts 
on this? 

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5749 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 5:18pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fwd: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational Foundation

 
  Dear Gaopeng,

--- Gaopeng wrote: > Dear Sarah and the rest,
> 
>     Thanks for responding to my very previous post, :

>     I am 28 years male from Malaysia, a very beginner in Buddhism, 
> not secterian but inclining theravada, plus some mahayana :-), 
> melting pot . 
> 
There are a few Malaysians in dsg..whereabouts do you live? If you're reading
Visuddhimagga, you're obviously quite serious in your studies and many people
here have a 'melting pot' background....

Many thanks for all your kind info about the group in Taiwan and i'm glad
you've had success in obtaining the books. I haven't looked at the website, but
it sounds as though they're very generous. Your notes and translation is very
helpful to anyone here who doesn't have the funds to purchase these books.

Hope to hear more from you and any comments from the Vism or other books you're
reading.

Sarah



 
5750 From: Erik 
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Paying Respect

 
  --- "Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)" 
wrote:
> Dear Kom,
> 
> 	I trully understand your point of view but if you were trying 
to get
> someone close to you to follow the Middle Path and Dhamma and to 
embrace the
> Buddha's teaching... 

Loke, please take the following comments in the appropriate spirit--
as an observation, not a criticism.

Why would you wish to do such a thing? Proselytizing as I understand 
it (which is what it seems you're suggesting) isn't the way of the 
Buddha. If a person has the appropriate accumulations, and comes, 
though experience, to comprehend dukkha, then THAT is their entry 
into the Dhamma. If they are sincerely asking you about the Dharma 
after awakening to this fact, beacuse they are really serious about 
getting out of the mess they just realize they've found themselves 
in, then that's another story. If this is the case, then please 
disregard my entire message.

But to me, when I hear "trying to get someone...to follow [my path]" 
I am concerned. "Who" is "trying" to do the "getting" here? What is 
the motivation, the REAL motivation, behind trying to convince 
another to join up?

As far as skillfully encouraging altruism and ethics whenever the 
opportunity arises, that's another story, and a great way to share 
the Dharma (especially if you do this by example) without atempting 
to coerce someone into another viewpoint they may not be ready (or 
able) to accept. And in practice that is about the best we can do.

Form someone the very best route in thes life ma be Christianity. Who 
are we to judge another's accumulations such that we can discern if 
the Buddha's Dharma is their game in this life? If it is, it will 
assuredly manifest, ASSUREDLY! I know. I;'ve seen to many "meaningful 
coincidences" around this stuff to ever believe finding the Dhamma is 
a random activity.

 
5751 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another Question on Material from the Intro to Cetasikas

 
  Dear Howard,

Really glad you asked this.  I've wondered about the
same thing and come up with various vague similes and
hypotheses but have never managed to formulate the
question so well as you've done here.  Hope you don't
mind if I take a stab at it.

The sense-door and mind-door processes both arise and
subside so rapidly (as I understand it) that they are
subjectively (conventionally) meaningless--as Hermann
pointed out recently 'we' can't really experience
them--only equally brief mental factors--cittas and
cetasikas--can do so.  If subsequent, cognizable
referents (ideas?  pa��ati?), constructed from
previous moments of experience known only to
instantaneous naamas, are the only means by which
these moments can be intellectually (ontologically)
considered, then which are the less abstract (or more
'real'?)

To me the answer lies in how the word 'real' is used. 
In this context I think something is called 'real'
just because can be taken as an object by sati, that
is, it can be a foundation of mindfulness.  The
subsequent ideas are not called 'real' because they
are an after-the-fact construction which can't be
taken as an object by sati.  (By the way, in my
personal opinion, there IS an important, conventional
kind of insight which can be derived from pa��ati but
which is NOT vipassanaa).

Also in my personal opinion, it's all-important what
we think about and how we think about it.  I think
that's why the discourses are spoken in conventional
language, as if addressed to people who exist and have
the power to decide, think, speak and act.  So the
question of the relationship between (infinitessimal)
moments of (present) experience and how 'we' think
about them (after the fact) is really crucial (hence
abhidhamma?) 

Do you remember the 'Masterpiece' thread?

"...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a
masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that
masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed,
monks, the mind is even more artistic than that 
masterpiece.'"

Gaddula Sutta, SN XXII.100 (S ii 151-2) from Nina's
AIDL

Jim and Gayan both had some really interesting
comments (3974 & ?) that I think are pertinent to
these questions.

The absolutely convincing nature of this ever-changing
'masterpiece' is, I think, the central problem of
view.  The other day I was sitting in the sun and a
dragonfly landed on my hand.  I sat there thinking of
this sutta and trying to convince myself that this was
just an illusion, a "masterpiece".  I stared intently
at this dragonfly for several minutes--suddenly, it
bent its abdomen slightly, then suddenly POOPED on the
back of my hand!  It stayed there for a few minutes,
then bang! it was gone.

Who could've made that up?  What was real?  I couldn't
even begin to get past the 'story' of the pooping
dragonfly.  Does it help to intellectually conceive of
the sense-door and mind-door processes that preceded
and left the traces which were the raw material for
the 'story'?  I honestly don't know.  So I guess this
isn't an answer to your question...

Please excuse the rambling.

mike
 
--- Howard wrote:

>    What is the ontological status of these
> processes, these sequences of 
> cittas? Each citta is a so-called "ultimate
> reality". What about each entire 
> process? Is it just the referent of a concept? Is it
> "less real" than the 
> cittas which make it up? In what sense is the
> referent of a 
> (grounded/non-imaginary) concept less real than the
> "ultimate realities" it 
> subsumes? Is it just that the conceptual object is
> *constructed* by the mind 
> from directly observed "ultimate realities" which
> are interrelated in some 
> fashion? If that is, in fact, the answer, then it
> seems to me that it is not 
> quite the case that the conceptual object is less
> *real* as much as it is the 
> case that it is less *basic*, being reducible to
> ultimate objects. (All 
> conditioned dhammas, of course, even the "ultimate
> realities", have a 
> somewhat "compromised" reality in that they are not
> independent, separate 
> entities, but are dependently arisen, empty of
> self.) What are your thoughts 
> on this? 
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A
> star at dawn, a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
> a flickering lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> Sutra)                    



 
5752 From: bruce   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 9:13pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another Question on Material from the Intro to Cetasikas

 
  in a week of many posts, this one really shines...thanks mike, you made my
day, made me smile, and provide some excellent foodforthought...

bruce



At 05:40 2001/06/21 -0700, you wrote:
> Dear Howard,
> 
> Really glad you asked this.  I've wondered about the
> same thing and come up with various vague similes and
> hypotheses but have never managed to formulate the
> question so well as you've done here.  Hope you don't
> mind if I take a stab at it.
> 
> The sense-door and mind-door processes both arise and
> subside so rapidly (as I understand it) that they are
> subjectively (conventionally) meaningless--as Hermann
> pointed out recently 'we' can't really experience
> them--only equally brief mental factors--cittas and
> cetasikas--can do so.  If subsequent, cognizable
> referents (ideas?  pa��ati?), constructed from
> previous moments of experience known only to
> instantaneous naamas, are the only means by which
> these moments can be intellectually (ontologically)
> considered, then which are the less abstract (or more
> 'real'?)
> 
> To me the answer lies in how the word 'real' is used. 
> In this context I think something is called 'real'
> just because can be taken as an object by sati, that
> is, it can be a foundation of mindfulness.  The
> subsequent ideas are not called 'real' because they
> are an after-the-fact construction which can't be
> taken as an object by sati.  (By the way, in my
> personal opinion, there IS an important, conventional
> kind of insight which can be derived from pa��ati but
> which is NOT vipassanaa).
> 
> Also in my personal opinion, it's all-important what
> we think about and how we think about it.  I think
> that's why the discourses are spoken in conventional
> language, as if addressed to people who exist and have
> the power to decide, think, speak and act.  So the
> question of the relationship between (infinitessimal)
> moments of (present) experience and how 'we' think
> about them (after the fact) is really crucial (hence
> abhidhamma?) 
> 
> Do you remember the 'Masterpiece' thread?
> 
> "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a
> masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that
> masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed,
> monks, the mind is even more artistic than that 
> masterpiece.'"
> 
> Gaddula Sutta, SN XXII.100 (S ii 151-2) from Nina's
> AIDL
> 
> Jim and Gayan both had some really interesting
> comments (3974 & ?) that I think are pertinent to
> these questions.
> 
> The absolutely convincing nature of this ever-changing
> 'masterpiece' is, I think, the central problem of
> view.  The other day I was sitting in the sun and a
> dragonfly landed on my hand.  I sat there thinking of
> this sutta and trying to convince myself that this was
> just an illusion, a "masterpiece".  I stared intently
> at this dragonfly for several minutes--suddenly, it
> bent its abdomen slightly, then suddenly POOPED on the
> back of my hand!  It stayed there for a few minutes,
> then bang! it was gone.
> 
> Who could've made that up?  What was real?  I couldn't
> even begin to get past the 'story' of the pooping
> dragonfly.  Does it help to intellectually conceive of
> the sense-door and mind-door processes that preceded
> and left the traces which were the raw material for
> the 'story'?  I honestly don't know.  So I guess this
> isn't an answer to your question...
> 
> Please excuse the rambling.
> 
> mike
>  
> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> >    What is the ontological status of these
> > processes, these sequences of 
> > cittas? Each citta is a so-called "ultimate
> > reality". What about each entire 
> > process? Is it just the referent of a concept? Is it
> > "less real" than the 
> > cittas which make it up? In what sense is the
> > referent of a 
> > (grounded/non-imaginary) concept less real than the
> > "ultimate realities" it 
> > subsumes? Is it just that the conceptual object is
> > *constructed* by the mind 
> > from directly observed "ultimate realities" which
> > are interrelated in some 
> > fashion? If that is, in fact, the answer, then it
> > seems to me that it is not 
> > quite the case that the conceptual object is less
> > *real* as much as it is the 
> > case that it is less *basic*, being reducible to
> > ultimate objects. (All 
> > conditioned dhammas, of course, even the "ultimate
> > realities", have a 
> > somewhat "compromised" reality in that they are not
> > independent, separate 
> > entities, but are dependently arisen, empty of
> > self.) What are your thoughts 
> > on this? 
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 
> > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A
> > star at dawn, a bubble 
> > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
> > a flickering lamp, a 
> > phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> > Sutra)                    
> 

 
5753 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 9:19pm
Subject: Maranasati - meditation on death (Nina, Erik)

 
  Dear Nina,
I saw your note asking for reminders about death so am planning
to say something on this.
Dear Erik,
I thought I would tie it into your note about awareness of
dhammas and panic attacks.
However, I am a little overwhemled with work (plus go to Tokyo
on Sunday to give a talk) so it is going to take a few days.
In the meantime here is  a note I wrote to david on d-l which
has a little bearing.
 
--Dear Dave,
Deja vue. I developed fear of just about everything a few  years

after I began Buddhist practice. I was so scared of death and
being 
lost in samsara away from Dhamma. Especially when flying I would

break out in a cold sweat and strange sensations would course up
and 
down my body. 
For sure we cannot control where we will be reborn. We cannot
even 
control the next moment- can you arrange which object will
present 
itself next � seeing, hearing, smelling, touch , feeling,
mindobject? 
If we study the present correctly we will that the idea of
control is 
an illusion. And this is exactly what the Dhamma elucidates when
in 
the Abhidhamma it details the complex conditions that are needed
for 
each moment to arise .
 The idea of no control seems frightening but it is the key to
the 
Dhamma and also the way to overcoming all fears. It seems
fearful 
because this is where the sense of self is tied to. 

Kammasakata-nana , the understanding of kamma and its results 
at its 
most basic it is simply a belief that if we do good we get good.
At 
deeper levels it applies to every moment: now there is seeing
and 
seeing consciousness is vipaka, conditioned by past kamma. Is
the 
object pleasant now? Yes, at this moment we are reading Dhamma �
and 
that is because we must have fukfilled the beneficial conditions
that 
make this happen. Is there understanding now? If so this is not 
vipaka (result) but cause (kamma) and this will bring pleasant 
results in the future sometime; we don't know when. It also 
conditions more understanding to arise on and on. This sort of
study 
now � of the present moment � gradually wears away the sense of
a 
self who can control. There are many other conditions apart from

kamma and they can be undersatood too. 
Fear is also a conditioned dhamma. If we see it in this way it 
becomes not our fear but simply an object for study and 
investigation, something we can learn from. Fear comes with 
unpleasant feelings � but feelings are not us or ours they are
just 
conditioned dhammas. They should be investigated. 

On the intellectuallisation ? Well we have to know what the
Dhamma is 
before it can be applied. But only real application works.
Sometimes 
I think "there is no-self, everything is anatta", but even while

thinking this there is a hidden belief in "me" who is thinking
so.

No fast path to understanding , at least in my case. When I was
in a 
plane I took a Dhama book. This didn't stop the fear but while
reading it I could see 
moments of kusala (wholesome ) coming in between the fear. And
too I 
learnt to accept the fear and unpleasant feelings and study them
with 
detachment . Also reflecting often on how kamma has already been
done 
long ago: if it is time to die it will happen � whether on the
ground 
or in the air. 
And somehow confidence grew that doing all this was very kusala 
kamma � and that if I did die at least I was doing the best
thing 
that could be done.

 robert





 
5754 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 0:20am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  > For example, if you know what you're doing you can use this as a 
very 
> nice way to spend several hours meditating on the Bhrahma viharas, 
> streaming tears of gratitude for your teachers and sending tidal 
> waves of metta to everyone around you--and if that isn't 
> extraordinarily high kusala I don't know what is. 

Lobha, or alobha? Samma-vayama?

 
5755 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 9:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another Question on Material from the Intro to Cetasikas

 
  Hi, Mike -

       I think the "stab" you take at this question in the following is 
excellently executed. There certainly is an obvious sense of conceptual 
referents being "less real" in that concepts are derivative and 
non-foundational because of being *constructed* from directly observed, 
ultimate phenomena. I hesitate, though, to use the "R-word" of 'reality' in 
this matter, only because to do so might be misleading. 
       I think of concepts as derivative and indirect, but still giving 
knowledge that is unavailable without them. Yes, ultimately there is no tree 
in my backyard - ultimately, there is no tree, no backyard, and, in fact, no 
separate entities at all. Nonetheless, there are patterns of relationships 
among directly observed phenomena which are captured by the shorthand of 
concepts, with these relations being a part of "reality" in the larger sense. 
My point here is that conventional notions such as those of 'tree', 'car', 
'person' etc, do carry real semantic value in that they capture relations and 
relational patterns. Without this, Ibelieve there would be a gap in our 
knowledge. I don't think we should short-change convention! ;-)) But, of 
course, we can make grave errors with conventional notions. We can treat such 
conceptual objects as if they were on the same ontological level as the 
"ultimate realities", which is a mixing of levels and a conflating of 
'fundamental' with 'derivative'. I think that what is important is for us to 
be able to *distinguish* between ultimate/fundamental and 
derivative/constructed/reducible. When we can distinguish these easily, 
consistently, and clearly, we needn't worry too much about "reality" vs 
"non-reality". A more basic mistake we can make, I think, is in attributing 
*independent* reality/ essence/ entityness to *any* dhammas, whether 
derivative or fundamental. All conditioned dhammas have only dependent 
existence, being dependently arisen and bearing relations to other concurrent 
dhammas, and, hence, being nothing *in and of themselves*. Even the truly 
ultimate dhamma, nibbana, the unconditioned element, bears a relation, it 
would seem, to the conditioned dhammas. If there were no such relation, then 
there would either be a strict duality between two unbridgeable absolute 
realities, the "world" of conditions and nibbana, or there would be something 
along the lines of Advaita Vedanta wherein the world of conditions is 
absolutely nonexistent and nibbana is a SELF. Neither of these positions, of 
course, is the middle way of Buddhism wherein *all* dhammas are not-self.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 6/21/01 9:04:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
m. nease writes:


> Dear Howard,
> 
> Really glad you asked this.  I've wondered about the
> same thing and come up with various vague similes and
> hypotheses but have never managed to formulate the
> question so well as you've done here.  Hope you don't
> mind if I take a stab at it.
> 
> The sense-door and mind-door processes both arise and
> subside so rapidly (as I understand it) that they are
> subjectively (conventionally) meaningless--as Hermann
> pointed out recently 'we' can't really experience
> them--only equally brief mental factors--cittas and
> cetasikas--can do so.  If subsequent, cognizable
> referents (ideas?  pa��ati?), constructed from
> previous moments of experience known only to
> instantaneous naamas, are the only means by which
> these moments can be intellectually (ontologically)
> considered, then which are the less abstract (or more
> 'real'?)
> 
> To me the answer lies in how the word 'real' is used. 
> In this context I think something is called 'real'
> just because can be taken as an object by sati, that
> is, it can be a foundation of mindfulness.  The
> subsequent ideas are not called 'real' because they
> are an after-the-fact construction which can't be
> taken as an object by sati.  (By the way, in my
> personal opinion, there IS an important, conventional
> kind of insight which can be derived from pa��ati but
> which is NOT vipassanaa).
> 
> Also in my personal opinion, it's all-important what
> we think about and how we think about it.  I think
> that's why the discourses are spoken in conventional
> language, as if addressed to people who exist and have
> the power to decide, think, speak and act.  So the
> question of the relationship between (infinitessimal)
> moments of (present) experience and how 'we' think
> about them (after the fact) is really crucial (hence
> abhidhamma?) 
> 
> Do you remember the 'Masterpiece' thread?
> 
> "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a
> masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that
> masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed,
> monks, the mind is even more artistic than that 
> masterpiece.'"
> 
> Gaddula Sutta, SN XXII.100 (S ii 151-2) from Nina's
> AIDL
> 
> Jim and Gayan both had some really interesting
> comments (3974 & ?) that I think are pertinent to
> these questions.
> 
> The absolutely convincing nature of this ever-changing
> 'masterpiece' is, I think, the central problem of
> view.  The other day I was sitting in the sun and a
> dragonfly landed on my hand.  I sat there thinking of
> this sutta and trying to convince myself that this was
> just an illusion, a "masterpiece".  I stared intently
> at this dragonfly for several minutes--suddenly, it
> bent its abdomen slightly, then suddenly POOPED on the
> back of my hand!  It stayed there for a few minutes,
> then bang! it was gone.
> 
> Who could've made that up?  What was real?  I couldn't
> even begin to get past the 'story' of the pooping
> dragonfly.  Does it help to intellectually conceive of
> the sense-door and mind-door processes that preceded
> and left the traces which were the raw material for
> the 'story'?  I honestly don't know.  So I guess this
> isn't an answer to your question...
> 
> Please excuse the rambling.
> 
> mike
> 
> --- Howard wrote:
> 
> >    What is the ontological status of these
> > processes, these sequences of 
> > cittas? Each citta is a so-called "ultimate
> > reality". What about each entire 
> > process? Is it just the referent of a concept? Is it
> > "less real" than the 
> > cittas which make it up? In what sense is the
> > referent of a 
> > (grounded/non-imaginary) concept less real than the
> > "ultimate realities" it 
> > subsumes? Is it just that the conceptual object is
> > *constructed* by the mind 
> > from directly observed "ultimate realities" which
> > are interrelated in some 
> > fashion? If that is, in fact, the answer, then it
> > seems to me that it is not 
> > quite the case that the conceptual object is less
> > *real* as much as it is the 
> > case that it is less *basic*, being reducible to
> > ultimate objects. (All 
> > conditioned dhammas, of course, even the "ultimate
> > realities", have a 
> > somewhat "compromised" reality in that they are not
> > independent, separate 
> > entities, but are dependently arisen, empty of
> > self.) What are your thoughts 
> > on this? 
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> > 
> > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A
> > star at dawn, a bubble 
> > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
> > a flickering lamp, a 
> > phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond
> > Sutra)                    
> 



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5756 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:10am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> > For example, if you know what you're doing you can use this as a 
> very 
> > nice way to spend several hours meditating on the Bhrahma 
viharas, 
> > streaming tears of gratitude for your teachers and sending tidal 
> > waves of metta to everyone around you--and if that isn't 
> > extraordinarily high kusala I don't know what is. 
> 
> Lobha, or alobha? Samma-vayama?

The proof of the pudding is in the (one) tasting.

 
5757 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:38am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  Extraordinarily intense lobha but oh-so-pleasant.

 
5758 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:54am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Dan wrote:

> Extraordinarily intense lobha but oh-so-pleasant.

It depends on motivation and the degree of accumulate wisdom, I 
suppose. For example, tantrikas are renowned for transforming even 
poisons into the purest amrit. I love the domain of alchemy.

 
5759 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:53am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  > > Extraordinarily intense lobha but oh-so-pleasant.
> 
> It depends on motivation and the degree of accumulate wisdom, I 
> suppose. 
I doubt it. Isn't that the point?

 
5760 From: Num 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 2:00am
Subject: Drug and alcohol

 
  Hi all,

Well, I have seen couple posts recently about drug and alcohol use.  I know 
it's personal but please be careful and use wise and careful attention plus 
wisdom. The positive effects of drug are always very short but the negative 
consequences stay for much longer time and it's usually pervasive and 
pernicious. Not everyone get addicted to drug and alcohol when he uses, but a 
lot of people do and then they have to keep "chasing" for something they will 
never get.

Let me just cut and paste section from Nina's Cetasika, which she quoted it 
from Visuddhimagga and Atthasalini regarding Lobha or attachment or clinging.

______________________________________________________________________________

_________

The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: 

        greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like "monkey 
lime". 
        Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is 
manifested 
        as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. In proximate cause is 
        seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the 
        current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it 
to 
        states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. 

      The Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives a similar 
definition 
      (1 See also Dhammasangani 389).
  
           Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. Monkey 
      lime was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the 
Kindred 
      Sayings (V, Maha-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, 7, The monkey) that a 
hunter 
      sets a trap of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from "folly and 
      greed" do not get trapped. We read: 

            .....But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and 
handles it 
        with one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I'll 
free 
        my paw, he seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To 
        free both paws he seizes them with one foot,. and that too sticks 
fast. 
        To free both paws and the one foot, he lays hold of them with the 
other 
        foot, but that too sticks fast. To flee both paws and both feet he 
lays 
        hold of them with his muzzle: but that too sticks fast. 
            So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, 
thus 
        fallen on misfortune...

      In this way the hunter can catch him and roast him over the fire. The 
      Buddha explained to the monks that the monk who is not mindful gets 
      trapped by the "five sensual elements ": visible object, sound, scent, 
      savour and tangible object. When one is taken in by these objects, 
"Mara 
      gets access" (2 Mara is that which is evil, akusala, and a wider sense: 
      everything which is bound up with dukkha.). Clinging is dangerous, it 
      leads to one's own destruction. Are we at this moment taken in by one 
of 
      the "five sensual elements"? Then we are in fact "trapped". At the 
moment 
      of lobha we enjoy the object of clinging and we do not see that lobha 
      makes us enslaved, we do not see the danger of lobha. Therefore it is 
said 
      that the proximate cause of lobha is seeing enjoyment in things that 
lead 
      to bondage. Growing into a river of craving, lobha takes us to the 
"states 
      of loss". Lobha can motivate unwholesome deeds which are capable of 
      producing an unhappy rebirth. So long as lobha has not been eradicated 
we 
      are subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. 
______________________________________________________________________________

__________


Best wishes,

Num



 
5761 From: jlsallis   
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 7:07am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another Question on Material from the Intro to Cetasikas

 
  Hi, group -
well, although I said I would lurk for a while, I do have a question.  Have
also started to read "Cetasikas".  I have been mulling over phassa for a
while, and even after reading that section, am still stuck.  I can see
phassa as two possibilities - (1) as a description of the process of contact
between the sense base, the object, and the sense consciousness  - i.e. the
"union" of the three of these is contact.  Or (2) As an enabler - something
called "contact" enables the union of the sense base, object, and sense
consciousness.  Neither of these seems satisfactory, but as I said, even
after reading the "phassa" chapter, I still can't figure this out.
Any ideas?
thanks
Judy

 
 
5762 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:14am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> > > Extraordinarily intense lobha but oh-so-pleasant.
> > 
> > It depends on motivation and the degree of accumulate wisdom, I 
> > suppose. 
> I doubt it. Isn't that the point?

Not clear what you're saying. Are you suggesting that intense lobha 
is the ONLY possibly outcome, or only one (or more) person's 
experience? What I was suggesting is that the wisdom and 
understanding of the person applying this practice is the most 
important ingredient. That is the only point I see of any relevance 
here.

 
5763 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:29am
Subject: Re: Drug and alcohol

 
  --- Num wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Well, I have seen couple posts recently about drug and alcohol 
use.  I know 
> it's personal but please be careful and use wise and careful 
attention plus 
> wisdom. 

Absolutely. Wisdom and caution are vital whenever you tweak your 
neurons. You can kill yourself if you don't know what you're doing. 
So know what you're doing! (easier sad than done; it takes a lot of 
training to learn how to work effectively with medicines).

> The positive effects of drug are always very short but the negative 
> consequences stay for much longer time and it's usually pervasive 
and 
> pernicious. 

Please be very specific which drug you're talking about. Do you mean 
capsicum (in hot chili)? Caffeine? Nicotine? Alcohol? Psilocybin? 
Methamphetamine? Dextromethorphan? All of these drugs operate in 
totally different ways and in totally different neural pathways, some 
fostering addiction, some working directly against addictive thinking 
(psychedelic drugs for example).

> Not everyone get addicted to drug and alcohol when he uses, but a 
> lot of people do and then they have to keep "chasing" for something 
they will 
> never get.

That is where proper training and ritualized use comes in--the 
traditional way of doing it, the way the Native Americans do. Many 
have succcessfully used peyote this way to cure alcoholism (the 
scourge of Amerindians), and Bill Wilsom, founder of AA, strongly 
encouraged LSD as a treatment for addiction (he used it himself for 
this purpose).

Given these realities, this is much more complicated topic than the 
sound-bite propagandists of the War on Some Drugs would have us 
believe. There has been too much misinformation, and far too much 
confusion about "drugs," comparing apples and oranges. Heroin and LSD 
couldn't be more different in terms of function, yet many people lump 
them into the same category, simply because they're all illegal.

 
5764 From: Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)   
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 9:33am
Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Paying Respect

 
  [Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  Dear Ripka,

> If a person has the appropriate accumulations, and comes, 
> though experience, to comprehend dukkha, then THAT is their entry 
> into the Dhamma. If they are sincerely asking you about the Dharma 
> after awakening to this fact, beacuse they are really serious about 
> getting out of the mess they just realize they've found themselves 
> in, then that's another story. If this is the case, then please 
> disregard my entire message.
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  agree with what you say

> But to me, when I hear "trying to get someone...to follow [my path]" 
> I am concerned. "Who" is "trying" to do the "getting" here? What is 
> the motivation, the REAL motivation, behind trying to convince 
> another to join up?
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  as for the motivation, well from my
viewpoints, knowing the effects of certain actions and its kamma is my
motivation and push to let the person that I am trying to talk know the
cause and effects of things and when they do ask about Buddhist practise ..
then I feel I should try my best to explain why Buddhist does things this
way or that.

> As far as skillfully encouraging altruism and ethics whenever the 
> opportunity arises, that's another story, and a great way to share 
> the Dharma (especially if you do this by example) without atempting 
> to coerce someone into another viewpoint they may not be ready (or 
> able) to accept. And in practice that is about the best we can do.
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  Showing by example is one thing... I
think sometime there arise a need to explain ourselves and share with people
our ideas and concepts when they ask of course...

> Form someone the very best route in thes life ma be Christianity. Who 
> are we to judge another's accumulations such that we can discern if 
> the Buddha's Dharma is their game in this life? If it is, it will 
> assuredly manifest, ASSUREDLY! I know. I;'ve seen to many "meaningful 
> coincidences" around this stuff to ever believe finding the Dhamma is 
> a random activity.
> 
	[Loke ChaiLiang (EWMA/MEO2)]  this has nothing to do with the
Christianity issue.... I think I have been asking way too much question
about Christianity that I am somehow pulled towards it everytime a question
comes up though it may not be linked.... :>)

	Rgds,
	Loke CL

 
5765 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 9:44am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Erik wrote:
> --- Dan wrote:
> > > > Extraordinarily intense lobha but oh-so-pleasant.
> > > 
> > > It depends on motivation and the degree of accumulate wisdom, I 
> > > suppose. 
> > I doubt it. Isn't that the point?
> 
> Not clear what you're saying. Are you suggesting that intense lobha 
> is the ONLY possibly outcome, or only one (or more) person's 
> experience? What I was suggesting is that the wisdom and 
> understanding of the person applying this practice is the most 
> important ingredient. That is the only point I see of any relevance 
> here.

No discernment of alobha vs. lobha => no wisdom. Isn't the indulgence 
done out of lobha for the sake of lobha? 

If there is wisdom, then there is no need for the drug. If there is 
no wisdom, then the drug delivers only lobha.

 
5766 From: Herman 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 2:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Rebirth- Captain Akusala

 
  Dear Robert,

Thank you for your very clear elaboration. Sorry for the gap between 
replies, there are presently a lot of things taking my attention.

In essence we are in agreement. If I may just highlight some 
differences.

--- Robert Kirkpatrick 
 wrote:

> Dear Herman,


> Among the conditions for the continuation of phenomena are the
> same greed, hatred and delusion that obsess the mind now:

I tend to think that each mental state is a seed for its 
reappearance, whethere wholesome or unwholesome. Hate will thus , 
cannot thus, ever lead to anything else but hate. And the wholesome 
states will never be the source of anything but wholesome states. 


> consequently at death, assuming these factors haven't been
> eradicated, rebirth will ensue.  According to Buddhist texts the
> transition from one life to another normally wipes out memories
> of the earlier existence.  It doesn't, however, eliminate deep
> character tendencies.  For instance if one had developed the
> strong habit of kindness this would be carried over to the next
> life.  

I cannot see how this could be given we both agree there is not 
this "one". I am perhaps being confused at a language level only. 
There is kindness, but it is not my kindness or your kindness. True 
enough, kindness will engender kindness, but not as a permanent 
quality which is transferred from one five fold mass to another to 
own, in my opinion. The notion of personal kamma is very misleading , 
I think.

> The most common analogy given in Buddhist texts to explain
> rebirth is that of an oil-lamp.  The flame of the lamp is, in
> one sense, the same hour after hour.  But we know that it is in
> reality different each moment.  .  The wick, oil and air are
> needed to keep it going and it is burning up these up.  However
> the continuum � one moment of flame links with the next moment �
> is happening so fast that we can't see that each moment is
> entirely different.  When the oil is almost exhausted the flame
> may be used to light another lamp.  Is it a different flame now?
> In one sense yes, the supply of oil and the wick are different. 
> In another sense it is the same flame. In this simile the oil of
> the lamp is like the body of a person.  The wick is the body
> that functions as the support for the process of consciousness. 
> The air and oxygen are the objects of sense (colour, sound,
> smell etc.) and the flame is like consciousness and other mental
> factors.  When the person dies that is the same as the first
> lamp ending.  The transference of the flame to the next lamp is
> the same as the arising of consciousness in the new body.

This is is very good simile. What continues is consciousness. Hate 
fosters hate, engenders hate, and there is no powerful magic that 
will suddenly end this, no matter what happens to five fold masses or 
other concomitants of mind. But it is not my hate. There is no self 
owning this hate. But as long as there is hate, there will be more 
hate.

> 
> To understand conditionality, the crucial aspect of anatta, we
> must understand that mind and matter (nama and rupa) can't
> simply cease to arise while the conditions for them - greed,
> aversion and delusion are present. If we believe that the stream
> of mind and matter ends at death - no matter whetehr one is a
> monster or a saint - then we are caught in self view of the type
> that is anihilation view, a serious wrong view. 
> This type of view means that one could well decide that it
> doesn't matter what anyone does. One could be a killer but when
> one dies one is exactly the same as Mother Theresa (by this
> thinking). 

Again I may be being confused at a language level, but in reality 
there is no killer or Mother Theresa that own the qualities of sinner 
or saint. There are five fold masses, which are just conditions and 
then, conditions, conditions, conditions. Can Mother Theresa do any 
different than she does? Can the person who killed deliberately do 
differently?


> On the question of Hiroshima?; the one who understands
> conditionality and kamma and rebirth would sooner stick their
> head in a fire than commit such a deed.

Hiroshima required the entire history of the entire universe before 
it could take place. To isolate the pilot who released the bomb as 
the culprit is surely not your intention. Hiroshima is the result of 
infinite causes, and they roll on, endlessly. Personal kamma has no 
heuristic value, at best it may arouse fear. Unless there is seeing 
the emptiness of Hiroshima as seeing the emptiness of a beautiful 
garden as seeing the emptiness of ....... whatever , there will 
continue to be a severe reality conflict for the foreseeable 
eternities.

If there is no stepping off the wheel of rebirth now, it will never 
happen.

Kind Regards

Herman


> robert
> 
> --- Herman wrote:
> > Dear Robert,
> > 
> > So what is reborn? If that is a leading question, feel free to
> > 
> > paraphrase it.
> > 
> > I ask the question in the light of not-self. What is born,
> > what is 
> > reborn?
> > 
> > And you really believe it would be better to have bombed
> > Hiroshima 
> > than to not believe in rebirth?
> > 
> > You obviously have a strong conviction about this.
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > 
> > Herman
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> >  wrote:
> > > Hi, Captain Akusala.
> > > robert
> > > --- Herman wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > 
> > > > Call me Captain Akusala if you wish, I don't believe in
> > > > rebirth.
> > > > 
> > > > There is no identity now, no substantial anything, what is
> > to
> > > > be 
> > > > reborn if it isn't there in the first place?
> > > > 
> > > > Furthermore, I wouldn't know akusala or kusala if I fell
> > over
> > > > them. I 
> > > > know sloth , hatred, love, anger, anxiety, generosity. I
> > know
> > > > pain, 
> > > > pleasure, craving, aversion, the top of my breath , the
> > bottom
> > > > of my 
> > > > breath, the sensations at the bottom of my breath, the
> > > > sensations at 
> > > > my philtrum when I think of Mum, red, green, rotten egg
> > gas,
> > > > conceit. 
> > > > But nowhere have I seen a line that makes these things
> > akusala
> > > > or 
> > > > kusala in themselves. Cetasikas don't know whether cittas
> > are
> > > > kusala 
> > > > or akusala, cittas don't know themselves. Panna doesn't
> > know
> > > > it is 
> > > > Panna. Nibbana doesn't know itself.
> > > > 
> > > > When the doctor asks you whether to save the mother or the
> > > > baby not a 
> > > > single sutta will assist you. You do what you do, thats
> > all
> > > > there is.
> > > > 
> > > > To take reality, and divide and categorise it on moral
> > grounds
> > > > is as 
> > > > arbitrary as choosing between the red and blue teams. They
> > > > both 
> > > > exist, thats reality. 
> > > > 
> > > > It is neither good nor bad to change dates on peoples
> > > > headstones, 
> > > > whether to prolong life or shorten it, people will die. To
> > > > help the 
> > > > sick so they die three years later, call it akusala or
> > kusala,
> > > > it 
> > > > makes no difference, give food to the poor so that they
> > will
> > > > die with 
> > > > 8 teeth in their mouth instead of 3, call it kusala or
> > > > akusala, it 
> > > > makes no difference, just do what you do, because neither
> > Mind
> > > > nor 
> > > > Deep Blue knows the consequence of anything. As long as
> > there
> > > > is life 
> > > > there is death, as long as there is being, there is
> > > > nothingness.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Herman
> > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > > One thing I wanted to add. in my post about wrong view
> > last
> > > > week
> > > > > I said how extreme wrong view is the highest akusala.
> > Views
> > > > that
> > > > > deny kamma and rebirth come under this. 
> > > > > Christianity may not necessarily fit here because while
> > > > > christains have wrong view in that they believe in the
> > > > saving
> > > > > grace of a god, many of them also believe that good
> > works
> > > > lead
> > > > > to heaven: thus mother theresa.
> > > > > It really depends how much weight they put on the "grace
> > of
> > > > god
> > > > > (wrong view)" versus "doing good works (ie kamma) as to 
> > how
> > > > > serious the view is. 
> > > > > robert
> > > > > 

 
5767 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 5:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another Question on Material from the Intro to Cetasikas

 
  Dear Judy,

I'm glad to see your interest and excellent question. I don't have time to
discuss further (but I'm sure someone else will).

In the meantime, you may like to look at a post I wrote on phassa,
no.5253...maybe you can see if this helps at all first.

Look forward to checking in when i can to see what else comes up!

Sarah

--- jlsallis  wrote: > Hi, group -
> well, although I said I would lurk for a while, I do have a question.  Have
> also started to read "Cetasikas".  I have been mulling over phassa for a
> while, and even after reading that section, am still stuck.  I can see
> phassa as two possibilities - (1) as a description of the process of contact
> between the sense base, the object, and the sense consciousness  - i.e. the
> "union" of the three of these is contact.  Or (2) As an enabler - something
> called "contact" enables the union of the sense base, object, and sense
> consciousness.  Neither of these seems satisfactory, but as I said, even
> after reading the "phassa" chapter, I still can't figure this out.
> Any ideas?
> thanks
> Judy
> 



 
5768 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 6:58pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> --- Erik wrote:
> > --- Dan wrote:

> > Not clear what you're saying. Are you suggesting that intense 
lobha 
> > is the ONLY possibly outcome, or only one (or more) person's 
> > experience? What I was suggesting is that the wisdom and 
> > understanding of the person applying this practice is the most 
> > important ingredient. That is the only point I see of any 
relevance 
> > here.
> 
> No discernment of alobha vs. lobha => no wisdom. Isn't the 
indulgence 
> done out of lobha for the sake of lobha? 


Hey Dan,

Your choice of the word "indulgence" tells me everything I need to 
know. What I am hearing is the sound of an Inner Puritan waiting to 
get out! :)

You are making prima facie assumptions about others' motivations and 
understanding here. If you think only in terms of "indulgence," 
yidams help you. In my own case, about 50% of my trips have been what 
most people consider "bad" trips (which were the very best trips for 
me of all, because they let me face my demons directly). Given this 
fact, how can you suggest that "bad trips" engender lobha, that this 
is some sort of indulgence? Look me in the virtual eye and tell me 
you aren't kidding when you use the word "indulgence."

This kind of practice is anything BUT indulgence. It's about directly 
facing your deepest, darkest fears and hidden corners. This is not 
for the faint of heart. This is not in any sense "indulgence." It is 
brutal, painful, difficult WORK. Each time I've gone in it's been 
with deep apprehension and fear of knowing just how difficult it's 
gonna get (not with MDMA, rather LSD or psilocybin).

> If there is wisdom, then there is no need for the drug. 

If there is SUFFICIENT wisdom and mental development, then there is 
no need for any "external" supports (kutis, seclusion, even certain 
drugs).

> If there is 
> no wisdom, then the drug delivers only lobha.

What drug delivers lobha inherently? Please elaborate on how this is 
possible. 

Yours in heresy,
Erik

 
5769 From: Herman 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:17pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  Dear Erik,

What prevents you from facing some of the less conventional demons? 
Death would be interesting, don't you think? And serious hard work!
Try drinking a litre of sulphuric acid, with a pinch of salt and an 
olive. It'll do the trick for sure.

For the fundamentalists among us, I am not soliciting Erik's demise. 
I am just suggesting to him that fear of the demise of the self is 
the lurking demon behind every little demon that manifests itself. 

I enjoy your posts, Erik, as well as Dan's.

Catch ya later, dudes

Herman



--- Erik wrote:
> --- Dan wrote:
> > --- Erik wrote:
> > > --- Dan wrote:
> 
> > > Not clear what you're saying. Are you suggesting that intense 
> lobha 
> > > is the ONLY possibly outcome, or only one (or more) person's 
> > > experience? What I was suggesting is that the wisdom and 
> > > understanding of the person applying this practice is the most 
> > > important ingredient. That is the only point I see of any 
> relevance 
> > > here.
> > 
> > No discernment of alobha vs. lobha => no wisdom. Isn't the 
> indulgence 
> > done out of lobha for the sake of lobha? 
> 
> 
> Hey Dan,
> 
> Your choice of the word "indulgence" tells me everything I need to 
> know. What I am hearing is the sound of an Inner Puritan waiting to 
> get out! :)
> 
> You are making prima facie assumptions about others' motivations 
and 
> understanding here. If you think only in terms of "indulgence," 
> yidams help you. In my own case, about 50% of my trips have been 
what 
> most people consider "bad" trips (which were the very best trips 
for 
> me of all, because they let me face my demons directly). Given this 
> fact, how can you suggest that "bad trips" engender lobha, that 
this 
> is some sort of indulgence? Look me in the virtual eye and tell me 
> you aren't kidding when you use the word "indulgence."
> 
> This kind of practice is anything BUT indulgence. It's about 
directly 
> facing your deepest, darkest fears and hidden corners. This is not 
> for the faint of heart. This is not in any sense "indulgence." It 
is 
> brutal, painful, difficult WORK. Each time I've gone in it's been 
> with deep apprehension and fear of knowing just how difficult it's 
> gonna get (not with MDMA, rather LSD or psilocybin).
> 
> > If there is wisdom, then there is no need for the drug. 
> 
> If there is SUFFICIENT wisdom and mental development, then there is 
> no need for any "external" supports (kutis, seclusion, even certain 
> drugs).
> 
> > If there is 
> > no wisdom, then the drug delivers only lobha.
> 
> What drug delivers lobha inherently? Please elaborate on how this 
is 
> possible. 
> 
> Yours in heresy,
> Erik

 
5770 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  I'm confident that the hallucinogen way is not the Buddha's way. Even 
if you experience the most passionate fear or "compassion" 
or "appreciation" while tripping, the question is how much attachment 
arises either to the various mental phenomena arising at the time, or 
in recollecting the trips, or anticipating them, or dreading them, or 
even in defense of the ritual. There is a danger of not recognizing 
these attachments as attachments (akusala) when they arise. In my 
understanding, LSD and MDMA work by creating very strong attachments 
to various mental phenonema when they arise. The attachments are born 
of attention--even a very close and sensitive and detailed attention--
but it is ayoniso because of the attachment. 

> Look me in the virtual eye and tell me 
> you aren't kidding when you use the word "indulgence."

Of course I'm not kidding. Regardless of how passionate your tripping 
may be, indulging in hallucinagens is not path. It's an emotional 
game that confuses attachment with wisdom. I don't know the cetasikas 
that will follow the 'hearing' of these words, but I do hope they 
condition some reflection on how trips are so enmeshed with 
attachment (POSSIBLY even inherently).

> What drug delivers lobha inherently? Please elaborate on how this 
is 
> possible. 

When consciously indulged, LSD inherently delivers attachment (either 
lobha or dosa). It does by blocking seratonin and thereby 
intensifying attention. With the increased attention, all kinds of 
mental phenomena that normally reside in the background take center 
stage. That's the point of the exercise. But this increased attention 
is accompanied by attachment--not just an ordinary attachment, but a 
strong attachment. This is also the point of the exercise--the 
intense emotional experiences while tripping, and that is attachment. 

Dan

 
5771 From: bruce   
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hindrances and Satipatthana (was Re: Discouraging (1.1) [Jon])

 
  hi jon, hi all

i, of course, have the thickest skull of anyone on this list (mana!), re:
 
> Satipatthana is the development of awareness/mindfulness of a reality
> appearing at the present moment.
> 
> The prerequisites for the arising of awareness are:
> -  having met the dhamma, listened to it and considered it at length
> -  having understood correctly what awareness is, its function and
> characteristic and what can be the object of awareness
> -  applying what one has heard and correctly understood.

i just don't get this, as usual....how does one "apply" what one has heard?
what is being done? how does one "consider" what one has heard?  these
sound so active and choice-driven ....is this "applying" and "considering"
something that one can choose to do?  do you do it, jon? does anyone on the
list do it? if so, please, i'd really like a description of and details
about how-to-do such an activity, as an "activity"  is certainly what it
sounds like ....or am i unable to see the forest out of the molehills?

(sorry for all the quotes, and if the above sounds abrupt; it's not
intended to be....i guess i just feel like i'm rapidly losing fluency in
english these past few weeks...)

bruce

 
5772 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  Dear Dan,
 I don't have a strong anti-drug position, as I think alcohol is
the more damaging to hiri and otappa. But your explanation seems
most insightful.
robert
--- Dan wrote:
> I'm confident that the hallucinogen way is not the Buddha's
> way. Even 
> if you experience the most passionate fear or "compassion" 
> or "appreciation" while tripping, the question is how much
> attachment 
> arises either to the various mental phenomena arising at the
> time, or 
> in recollecting the trips, or anticipating them, or dreading
> them, or 
> even in defense of the ritual. There is a danger of not
> recognizing 
> these attachments as attachments (akusala) when they arise. In
> my 
> understanding, LSD and MDMA work by creating very strong
> attachments 
> to various mental phenonema when they arise. The attachments
> are born 
> of attention--even a very close and sensitive and detailed
> attention--
> but it is ayoniso because of the attachment. 
> 
> > Look me in the virtual eye and tell me 
> > you aren't kidding when you use the word "indulgence."
> 
> Of course I'm not kidding. Regardless of how passionate your
> tripping 
> may be, indulging in hallucinagens is not path. It's an
> emotional 
> game that confuses attachment with wisdom. I don't know the
> cetasikas 
> that will follow the 'hearing' of these words, but I do hope
> they 
> condition some reflection on how trips are so enmeshed with 
> attachment (POSSIBLY even inherently).
> 
> > What drug delivers lobha inherently? Please elaborate on how
> this 
> is 
> > possible. 
> 
> When consciously indulged, LSD inherently delivers attachment
> (either 
> lobha or dosa). It does by blocking seratonin and thereby 
> intensifying attention. With the increased attention, all
> kinds of 
> mental phenomena that normally reside in the background take
> center 
> stage. That's the point of the exercise. But this increased
> attention 
> is accompanied by attachment--not just an ordinary attachment,
> but a 
> strong attachment. This is also the point of the exercise--the
> 
> intense emotional experiences while tripping, and that is
> attachment. 
> 
> Dan
> 



 
5773 From: Erik 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:26pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Dan wrote:

> I'm confident that the hallucinogen way is not the Buddha's way. 

So am I. I have never suggested there is even a "hallucinogen way." I 
am a Dhammist, not anythign else. I know for sure they can serve as 
wonderful aids on the path for those with the appropriate 
understanding and accumulations. But this is true for any activity 
done with right understanding and motivation. 

> Even 
> if you experience the most passionate fear or "compassion" 
> or "appreciation" while tripping, the question is how much 
attachment 
> arises either to the various mental phenomena arising at the time, 
or 
> in recollecting the trips, or anticipating them, or dreading them, 
or 
> even in defense of the ritual. 

How much attachment arises to any practice, anticipating it, 
dreading it, or in defense of it?

>There is a danger of not recognizing 
> these attachments as attachments (akusala) when they arise. In my 
> understanding, LSD and MDMA work by creating very strong 
attachments 
> to various mental phenonema when they arise.

What you suggest is untenable, because it implies there is some 
inherent property of these drugs that "creates" attachment. How does 
attachment arise? What are the conditions for lobha? Can the words of 
the Abhidhamma (whicn divorced from actual practice) be a condition 
for unhealthy attachment, for example?

Other than pointing out the very obvious danger that we can get 
attached to things, anything, if we lack appropriate attention and 
understanding, I'm not really sure what your point is.

 
5774 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:30pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Rebirth- Captain Akusala

 
  Dear Herman,

Sorry for interupting here, but I am a bit concerned about the views being 
expressed here.  My impression from your posts is that faith doesn't seem 
to play a significant role in your views.  On the other hand, there are some 
basic doctrines of Buddhism, regardless of your faith and convictions, that 
without understanding them, you may mis-interpret somebody's (and 
Buddha's) saying in a significant way.

--- Herman wrote:
> I tend to think that each mental state is a seed for its 
> reappearance, whethere wholesome or unwholesome. Hate will thus , 
> cannot thus, ever lead to anything else but hate. And the wholesome 
> states will never be the source of anything but wholesome states. 

Do you know that by parlay of the Abhidhamma saying, even 
unwholesome mental states can condition the rising of wholesome states, 
given the proper attention?  The reverse is also true, wholesome mental 
states can condition the rising of unwholesome states, given the improper 
attention.

Satipatthana (wholesome) can cognize unwholesome states.  In this case, 
an unwholesome state conditions the rising of the wholesome states.  
When I first start learning about the dhamma in a more serious way, I was 
motivated to come to the temple to get some food and was curious to see 
how  a person who is not a monk would teach the dhamma.  Again, 
unwholesome states indirectly condition the rising of the wholesome 
states (or I assume!.)

You may also notice that it is very easy to be attached to the wholesome 
mental states as well.  Some people give because it makes them feel 
good.  Do you think this is a form of attachment or non-attachment?  We 
may be attached to all kind of wholesome qualities from any levels of 
kusala except at the supra-mundane levels: you can be attached to mental 
qualities (calm, peace, insights, piti [rapture], upekha [indifferent feeling]) 
of sila, dana, samatha meditation, satipathana, etc, all without even 
knowing it.

Unwholesome states, at their worst, bring only bad results if much 
developed.  This is the laws of kamma, of causes and results, one of the 
most fundamental doctrines in Buddhism.  There are more than one 
references of this law from all (I believe) the three baskets: not believing 
in it is said to be a micha-ditthi that can only gets one to be reborn in hell.  

> > consequently at death, assuming these factors haven't been
> > eradicated, rebirth will ensue.  According to Buddhist texts the
> > transition from one life to another normally wipes out memories
> > of the earlier existence.  It doesn't, however, eliminate deep
> > character tendencies.  For instance if one had developed the
> > strong habit of kindness this would be carried over to the next
> > life.  

> 
> I cannot see how this could be given we both agree there is not 
> this "one". I am perhaps being confused at a language level only. 
> There is kindness, but it is not my kindness or your kindness. True 
> enough, kindness will engender kindness, but not as a permanent 
> quality which is transferred from one five fold mass to another to 
> own, in my opinion. The notion of personal kamma is very misleading , 
> I think.

Both wholesome and unwholesome states are accumulated 
as "tendencies".   These same qualities tend to rise again in the future if 
one is arising now.   Any moments of unwholesome qualities add to the 
tendencies that they will rise again in the future.  You don't even have to 
believe in the last life, this life, and the next life to see this.  "Habits" are 
the closest conventional explanation to this.  Have you ever read the 
suttas that directly talk about the habits that are carried from one life to 
another?  Have you noticed you own actions that form habits?

When we are saying something like, this is not self and this is not mine.   
Do you see that this can be explained by the assertions that all 
conditioned dhammas are rising and falling away extremely rapidly 
because of conditions?   As soon as you tag onto (identify) one of these 
phenomena as self, that reality has already fallen away a long long time 
ago.  On the other hands, it is clear that the phenomena now are 
conditioning the rising of the next phenomena.  This is why we are easily 
mistaken into identifying things as self because the pheonomena a second 
ago feel exactly like the phenomena arising now.

The example to this would be, if you burn your hand now on a stove, you 
still remain burned even a second from now.  The previous materials that 
made up your hand a moment ago are conditioning the materials that 
make up your hand now.  They are not the same materials (and hence not 
self), but yet ones condition the others.  This is the same as mental 
states.   The mental states a moment ago is conditioning the mental 
states arising now.  In fact, if you look at the explanations carefully, the 
conditioning of the mental states now are not just limited by the mental 
states a moment ago.  It is conditioned by all sorts of conditions from the 
past, even a long long time ago including past lives, with the example 
being the accumulated tendencies and kamma.

> This is is very good simile. What continues is consciousness. Hate 
> fosters hate, engenders hate, and there is no powerful magic that 
> will suddenly end this, no matter what happens to five fold masses or 
> other concomitants of mind. But it is not my hate. There is no self 
> owning this hate. But as long as there is hate, there will be more 
> hate.

Do you believe in the Buddha, the dhamma and the path, and the 
Sangha?  They are what we associate with the end of suffering.  They 
have all seen (or is) the end of suffering, including hate.  Don't you think 
this is truly amazing and magical?  I don't see how anyone could 
be "practicing" Buddhism without believing these or at least holding that 
they are possibilities.   Without them, you are only taking bits and pieces 
of the teachings, incorporating them into your own beliefs, maybe all 
without really trying to understand what the Buddha's teachings 
fundamentally are.  You don't have to believe in all the teachings, but you 
will need to understand the fundamenatals to understand what other 
people say, and to see whether or not what other people say matches the 
teachings (and not your own beliefs) or not.

> 
> > 
> > To understand conditionality, the crucial aspect of anatta, we
> > must understand that mind and matter (nama and rupa) can't
> > simply cease to arise while the conditions for them - greed,
> > aversion and delusion are present. If we believe that the stream
> > of mind and matter ends at death - no matter whetehr one is a
> > monster or a saint - then we are caught in self view of the type
> > that is anihilation view, a serious wrong view. 
> > This type of view means that one could well decide that it
> > doesn't matter what anyone does. One could be a killer but when
> > one dies one is exactly the same as Mother Theresa (by this
> > thinking). 
> 
> Again I may be being confused at a language level, but in reality 
> there is no killer or Mother Theresa that own the qualities of sinner 
> or saint. There are five fold masses, which are just conditions and 
> then, conditions, conditions, conditions. Can Mother Theresa do any 
> different than she does? Can the person who killed deliberately do 
> differently?

This is the view that concerns me.  I believe you are veering toward the 
view of there are no causes and effects, even if you are not convinced of 
the law of kamma yet.  

> > On the question of Hiroshima?; the one who understands
> > conditionality and kamma and rebirth would sooner stick their
> > head in a fire than commit such a deed.
> 
> Hiroshima required the entire history of the entire universe before 
> it could take place. To isolate the pilot who released the bomb as 
> the culprit is surely not your intention. Hiroshima is the result of 
> infinite causes, and they roll on, endlessly. Personal kamma has no 
> heuristic value, at best it may arouse fear. Unless there is seeing 
> the emptiness of Hiroshima as seeing the emptiness of a beautiful 
> garden as seeing the emptiness of ....... whatever , there will 
> continue to be a severe reality conflict for the foreseeable 
> eternities.
> 
> If there is no stepping off the wheel of rebirth now, it will never 
> happen.

The kamma that the pilot had committed is fully his own.  He cannot 
blame anybody for it.  He had the choice, even if the choice may have 
been being executed for military disobediences.   Again, this is the point I 
am trying to make.  Even if you don't think the law of kamma holds true, 
you may want to at least understand how the Buddha explains how it 
works.  Otherwise, you will not understand what Robert is saying about 
somebody with the conviction of such laws, he would rather stick his head 
in the fire rather than commiting such a serious kamma.

Although I don't really hope to convince anybody anything that something 
is true, at least I think we should come to terms what the differences 
are.    I believe I am referencing what the Buddha is teaching (certainly 
with some mistakes), what do you base your convictions and ideas on? 

kom

 
5775 From: Dan 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:54pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  > Other than pointing out the very obvious danger that we can get 
> attached to things, anything, if we lack appropriate attention and 
> understanding, I'm not really sure what your point is.

It is very easy to mistake a drug-induced intensified attention and 
the attachment associated with that attention as wisdom when it is 
really delusion. The drug makes discernment more difficult because 
the attention (manasikara) is artificially intensified without the 
benefit of increased awareness (sati); it is easier to see more 
things but more difficult to see them with detachment--an obstacle to 
the path. Thanks for helping make this clearer to me.

Dan

 
5776 From: Joe 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 11:31pm
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  Howdy from Todos Santos,

One thing I'd like to point out in this discussion -- and it's not 
intended to be either in support of or against the use of 
psychedelics -- is that all our perceptions are chemically 
conditioned, whether by the food we eat and the air we breathe, or 
the herbal cough syrup we slurped in the middle of the night. LSD may 
be less subtle, but the result is the same -- chemically induced 
perceptions. Some people's brains excrete more serotonin, some less. 
A few folks I've met seem to be tripping all the time, "naturally", 
for better or worse.

Second, correct practice of dhamma increases attention, does it not? 
Does attachment automatically follow?

Finally, does Guru Tipitaka have anything to say on this topic? Could 
both positions (pro, anti) be just idle speculation?

Joe


--- Dan wrote:
> > Other than pointing out the very obvious danger that we can get 
> > attached to things, anything, if we lack appropriate attention 
and 
> > understanding, I'm not really sure what your point is.
> 
> It is very easy to mistake a drug-induced intensified attention and 
> the attachment associated with that attention as wisdom when it is 
> really delusion. The drug makes discernment more difficult because 
> the attention (manasikara) is artificially intensified without the 
> benefit of increased awareness (sati); it is easier to see more 
> things but more difficult to see them with detachment--an obstacle 
to 
> the path. Thanks for helping make this clearer to me.
> 
> Dan

 
 
 
5777 From: Erik 
Date: Sat Jun 23, 2001 0:18am
Subject: Re: kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

 
  --- Dan wrote:
> > Other than pointing out the very obvious danger that we can get 
> > attached to things, anything, if we lack appropriate attention 
and 
> > understanding, I'm not really sure what your point is.
> 
> It is very easy to mistake a drug-induced intensified attention and 
> the attachment associated with that attention as wisdom when it is 
> really delusion. The drug makes discernment more difficult because 
> the attention (manasikara) is artificially intensified without the 
> benefit of increased awareness (sati); it is easier to see more 
> things but more difficult to see them with detachment--an obstacle 
to 
> the path. Thanks for helping make this clearer to me.

I am not seeing any of the clarity you suggest you've found. One 
thing you should be aware of: it is an incontrovertible fact that the 
a practice combining LSD+MDMA and samatha & vipassana has _directly_ 
resulted in sotapatti-nana. It's a fait accompli, in other words, 
whether you choose to accept that or not. I mean, it's entirely 
possible I am either deluded or a liar, but let's say for the sake of 
argument I'm not. That means in no uncertain terms that this is none 
other than the ariyan Dhamma, my friend.

Regardless of your own views as to the integrity of what I've just 
said, every one of your arguments is founded on a number of 
assumptions not supported anywhere in the Tipitaka. For example, you 
imply (even say directly) that these drugs _inherently_ produce 
clinging, so there isn't even any need to go further than analyzing 
these very arguments to test their integrity when scrutinized in 
light of anatta and paticca samuppada.

I am curious how any view that suggests inherent existence (as you've 
done) can be anything other than miccha-ditthi. Is there a single 
phenomenon you can point to in the triple-realm that has such an 
essence that it is always akusala, that it will always promote 
clinging in EVERYONE, regardless of accumulations? Second, your 
arguments ingnore how reality arises: 1) in dependence on conditions; 
2) in dependence on parts; and 3) IN DEPENDENCE ON THE MIND LABELING 
THEM.

This last items is the key. If you accept the Buddha's position that 
all follows on from mind, that our accumulations shape our 
perceptions of phenomena, then your argument entails the absurd 
consequence of saying that these particular phenomena ("drugs") exist 
apart from the mind congizing them, that they are somehow the SOLE 
exception to the law of anatta.

That is an untenable view. For example, by asserting that "drugs" 
have an _inherently_ akusala nature, it entails the absurd 
consequence of eternalism--that things possess fixed nature 
independent of the mind cognizing them. If that's sammaditthi, I'm a 
monkey's uncle. Nagarjuna would have a field-day refuting such 
arguments. Come on Dan, I know you can do MUCH better than this, 
because this is anatta 101. :)

And regardless of your personal experiences or opinions, I can say I 
know FOR SURE I am a MUCH better person today as a result of this 
practice, my understanding fo the Dhamma is far better, my 
relationships are far better, and the intensity and committment to 
living the Dhamma has increased RADICALLY as a direct result of the 
beneficial influence of these tools. So believe what you will, the 
proof of the pudding is, as always, in the tasting.

(As an aside, this is my very mostest favoritist debate in the whole 
wide world! :) :) :) --I've found few things force careful 
investigation into the nature of Dhammas better than controversies 
like this one!).

 
5778 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Rebirth- Captain Akusala

 
  Hi, Herman (and Robert) -

       I hope you and Robert don't object to my entering your conversation. 
In a message dated 6/22/01 2:36:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Herman writes:


> Dear Robert,
> 
> Thank you for your very clear elaboration. Sorry for the gap between 
> replies, there are presently a lot of things taking my attention.
> 
> In essence we are in agreement. If I may just highlight some 
> differences.
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick 
>  wrote:
> 
> > Dear Herman,
> 
> 
> > Among the conditions for the continuation of phenomena are the
> > same greed, hatred and delusion that obsess the mind now:
> 
> I tend to think that each mental state is a seed for its 
> reappearance, whethere wholesome or unwholesome. Hate will thus , 
> cannot thus, ever lead to anything else but hate. And the wholesome 
> states will never be the source of anything but wholesome states. 
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I agree, but with the proviso that not all seeds bear fruit. Without 
the proper associated conditions, a seed may be unproductive, and, in fact, 
certain conditions could render the seed impotent.
--------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> 
> > consequently at death, assuming these factors haven't been
> > eradicated, rebirth will ensue.  According to Buddhist texts the
> > transition from one life to another normally wipes out memories
> > of the earlier existence.  It doesn't, however, eliminate deep
> > character tendencies.  For instance if one had developed the
> > strong habit of kindness this would be carried over to the next
> > life.  
> 
> I cannot see how this could be given we both agree there is not 
> this "one". I am perhaps being confused at a language level only. 
> There is kindness, but it is not my kindness or your kindness. True 
> enough, kindness will engender kindness, but not as a permanent 
> quality which is transferred from one five fold mass to another to 
> own, in my opinion. The notion of personal kamma is very misleading , 
> I think.
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I agree that there is no underlying something, there is no self. 
However, according to the Buddha - and I can only take this on faith at the 
moment - the complex of conditions on which we impute a "person" consists of 
co-occuring conditions which remain together in a lawfully changing stream 
which constitutes the conventional being.
-------------------------------------------------------------------


> 
> > The most common analogy given in Buddhist texts to explain
> > rebirth is that of an oil-lamp.  The flame of the lamp is, in
> > one sense, the same hour after hour.  But we know that it is in
> > reality different each moment.  .  The wick, oil and air are
> > needed to keep it going and it is burning up these up.  However
> > the continuum – one moment of flame links with the next moment –
> > is happening so fast that we can't see that each moment is
> > entirely different.  When the oil is almost exhausted the flame
> > may be used to light another lamp.  Is it a different flame now?
> > In one sense yes, the supply of oil and the wick are different. 
> > In another sense it is the same flame. In this simile the oil of
> > the lamp is like the body of a person.  The wick is the body
> > that functions as the support for the process of consciousness. 
> > The air and oxygen are the objects of sense (colour, sound,
> > smell etc.) and the flame is like consciousness and other mental
> > factors.  When the person dies that is the same as the first
> > lamp ending.  The transference of the flame to the next lamp is
> > the same as the arising of consciousness in the new body.
> 
> This is is very good simile. What continues is consciousness.
------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes, except here we need to be careful. There is no "thing", no 
"substance" called consciousness that continues. The Buddha warned against 
terminology to the effect that "it is this self-same consciousness that is 
reborn". There is just the next step in a process of discerning, conditioned 
by the current state of mind.
------------------------------------------------------------
  Hate 
> fosters hate, engenders hate, and there is no powerful magic that 
> will suddenly end this, no matter what happens to five fold masses or 
> other concomitants of mind. But it is not my hate. There is no self 
> owning this hate. But as long as there is hate, there will be more 
> hate.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes ... but. Other factors come into play. It isn't a matter of  
clockwork determinism. It isn't a matter of a ball of string rolling along 
fatalistically until fully unravelled, as the simile of a competing school at 
the time of the Buddha went. If it were, then there would be no fourth noble 
truth, no path to freedom.
----------------------------------------------------------

> 
> > 
> > To understand conditionality, the crucial aspect of anatta, we
> > must understand that mind and matter (nama and rupa) can't
> > simply cease to arise while the conditions for them - greed,
> > aversion and delusion are present. If we believe that the stream
> > of mind and matter ends at death - no matter whetehr one is a
> > monster or a saint - then we are caught in self view of the type
> > that is anihilation view, a serious wrong view. 
> > This type of view means that one could well decide that it
> > doesn't matter what anyone does. One could be a killer but when
> > one dies one is exactly the same as Mother Theresa (by this
> > thinking). 
> 
> Again I may be being confused at a language level, but in reality 
> there is no killer or Mother Theresa that own the qualities of sinner 
> or saint. There are five fold masses, which are just conditions and 
> then, conditions, conditions, conditions.
> 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Agreed.
---------------------------------------------------------------
  Can Mother Theresa do any 
> different than she does? Can the person who killed deliberately do 
> differently?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Do you mean in the future? Do you mean "Can things change?"? Yes.
--------------------------------------------------------------



> 
> 
> > On the question of Hiroshima?; the one who understands
> > conditionality and kamma and rebirth would sooner stick their
> > head in a fire than commit such a deed.
> 
> Hiroshima required the entire history of the entire universe before 
> it could take place. To isolate the pilot who released the bomb as 
> the culprit is surely not your intention. Hiroshima is the result of 
> infinite causes, and they roll on, endlessly.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Among these causes is human volition.
------------------------------------------------------------
  Personal kamma has no 
> heuristic value, at best it may arouse fear. Unless there is seeing 
> the emptiness of Hiroshima as seeing the emptiness of a beautiful 
> garden as seeing the emptiness of ....... whatever , there will 
> continue to be a severe reality conflict for the foreseeable 
> eternities.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I miss your meaning here, Herman. Kamma/intention/intentional action 
has kammic consequence, kamma vipaka. 
---------------------------------------------------------------

> 
> If there is no stepping off the wheel of rebirth now, it will never 
> happen.
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       It is always "now". But conditions change, and the cultivation of 
useful conditions can lead to the exact and complete pattern of conditions 
needed for stepping off the wheel.
----------------------------------------------------------------

> Kind Regards
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
===================================
With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
5779 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Jun 23, 2001 0:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Rebirth- Captain Akusala

 
  Dear Herman and Kom,

--- Herman wrote:

> I cannot see how this could be given we both agree
> there is not this "one". 

Hermann, I really appreciate your frankness regarding
your views.  I was a little shocked at first but none
of us gets to decide what we do and don't believe--all
our beliefs arise and subside according to conditions,
as I understand it.

That said, I must agree with Kom's points here, as
well as I'm able to understand them.  I would go
further and say that, a view without kamma and rebirth
as a central feature may be some form of 'Buddhism'
but is definitely not Buddhadhamma.

I think the mistake here is in thinking that rebirth
implies a self which is reborn.  Mistaking what is
born and dies for self is absolutely central to
Buddhadhamma as I understand it.  But throwing out
kamma and rebirth along with self-view is a really big
mistake, I think.  

Hermann, I don't take you for "an uninstructed,
run-of-the-mill person". I know you're extremely
well-informed and maybe I've completely misunderstood
your points.  If so, my apologies--no offense
intended.  

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is
the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that
fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill
person, touched by the feeling born of contact with
ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of
that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated,
dependently co-arisen. That craving...That
feeling...That contact...That ignorance is inconstant,
fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing &
seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end
to the effluents. 

"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self...but he may
have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as
the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant,
lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This
eternalist view is a fabrication...Or...he may have a
view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would
there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will
there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a
fabrication...Or...he may be doubtful & uncertain,
having come to no conclusion with regard to the true
Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, &
coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication. 

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is
the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that
fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill
person, touched by what is felt born of contact with
ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of
that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated,
dependently co-arisen. That craving...That
feeling...That contact...That ignorance is inconstant,
fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing &
seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end
to the effluents." 

Samyutta Nikaya XXII.81
Palileyyaka Sutta
At Palileyyaka

http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/samyutta/sn22-81.html

Yo paticcasamuppadam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yo Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppadam passati.

One who sees paticcasamuppada
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppada.

[M.I.191]

Best wishes,

mike


 
5780 From: Num 
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drug and alcohol

 
  Hi all,

Thanks Dan for your concise points.  Erik, your last couple mails sound 
somewhat tangential.  I have some difficulty trying to follow your points.

A tight definition of substance of addiction can be somewhat elusive.  A lot 
of people use various terms for various meanings and purposes.  One substance 
e.g. Morphine, called a medication when use for medical indication, a great 
pain killer esp. postoperative.  But when it was abused and used to served 
addiction it's called drug or street drug.  The terms are interchangeably, 
Chemical, Substance, Psychoactive substance, Drug with some differences.   
Legality or illegality is not the whole point of addiction, alcohol, 
nicotine(tobacco) and caffeine are legal in the States but they still can 
also cause addiction.  Also the definition of use, abuse, dependence and 
addiction are somewhat complicated. 

When "drug" or "substance" mentioned, it usually refereed to Alcohol, 
Amphetamine and it derivative, Caffeine, Cannabis, Cocaine, Hallucinogen e.g. 
LSD, Inhalants, Nicotine, Opioids, PCP and related substance e.g. Ketamine, 
Sedative, hypnotics, or anxiolytic and misc. e.g anabolic hormone, steroid, 
anticholinergic medication etc.

The final common path of all substances above is, it can activate rewarding 
circuitry in nervous system. If you use it long enough, usually it will cause 
permanent brain change(plasticity) or brain damage.  As I mentioned in my 
previous mail with analogy of monkey lime and lobha.  Not thing last forever, 
the drug effect as well, so we have to keep chasing and obtaining them.  It's 
pretty definite that those substances give positive short-live effect but 
also the longer consequences.  Most if car accidents are alc. and marijuana 
related. Some planes crashes are secondary mj use.  A very strong risk 
factors for complete suicide or homicide is substance use.  A lot of heart 
attacks or strokes are secondary to cocaine or amphetamine use.  HIV risk 
with huggy drug use and sharing needle.  Alc is with the most pervasive 
effect, accident, malnutrition, seizure, dementia, seual and physical abuses, 
fetal alcohol syndrome. Substanc