33000

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 2:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from Brazil

 	
Dear Gabriel,

Thank you for your kind words.

--- Gabriel Nunes Laera <zopatenzin@h...> wrote: 
> I was introduced to the Dhamma in 2001, soon after the 11th September 
> attacks I decided to research how peace is understood and teached in all
> the 
> world religions. <...>
...
S: Very impressive - you must have been only about 16 then. Reminds me of
our friend Anders not heard from for some time.
....
<...>
In January I`ve been to
> the 
> Buddhadipa Thai Temple, it was a sunday, and there was a novice who
> received 
> me had a very nice talk about what is Dhamma and how can we practice it
> in 
> our daily lives. Basically he spoke of anicca, anatta and dukkha, this
> was 
> for me very clarifying and inspiring!
....
S: I’m glad you had such an inspiring encounter. You may find it helpful
to also look at Nina’s book: “Buddhism in Daily Life” which can be found
on line here I think:
http://www.zolag.co.uk/
....
<....> 
> As I study Economics I decided to look for a way to use the dhamma in my
> study of such amazing science which is directly originated from the
> human 
> society relations and organization. Some months ago I found a very 
> interesting text written by a thailandian monk called "Buddhist
> Economics", 
> and I have now the objective of making a new proposal of economics based
> in 
> this text and in the buddhist ethics principles.
> 
> I hope I can learn a lot from you in this group, and I invite any
> interested 
> in helping me with the "Buddhist Economics"!
....
S: I liked Icaro’s suggestion of the Mahavamsa. I was also thinking of the
commentary to the first chapter of the Parinibbana sutta which details how
the Vajjis lived so harmoniously. The sutta can be found here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html

For the commentary, there’s a small book available from the pali text
society, ‘The Buddha’s Last Days’.

We read about how ‘only prosperity, not decline is to be expected for the
Vajjis’ who assemble frequently, hear messages from all directions,
adjourn together harmoniously etc. 

“If when someone’s work is failing, the rest of the kings send their
brothers and sons and support his work; and if when some king arrives [as
a guest], they do not direct him to such and such a house, but all provide
hospitality toether; and if when one has an occasion for celebration, or a
disease, or some other occasion for happiness or unhappiness of that kind
has arisen, they all share it as companions, then it is called ‘The Vajjis
do their business in harmony.’ 

It also discusses taxes and punishments and justice, so that people don’t
become irritated and prosperity is experienced. There is lots more and
then it’s followed by the commentary on conditions for the welfare of the
Sangha along similar lines of assembling frequently, living harmoniously
and following the Patimokkha rules, rehearsing the teachings.

It’s very long and detailed. If there are any parts you’d like me to check
and quote, please ask.

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33001

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 2:52am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

 	
Hi Ken H,

> However, I still like to wonder if there 
> might be some vast, fundamental difference between moments of 
kusala 
> consciousness that are unconnected with the Dhamma and moments 
of 
> kusala consciousness that are pariyatti – that is, connected with 
> the Dhamma at an intellectual level.
> -------------------

Do you mean the difference between kusala of dana, sila and samatha 
bhavana, and panna of the level of pariyatti? I think they are completely 
different. Though the latter depends to a good extent on development of 
the former to reach fruition in pativedha, in itself it is far more valuabl= 
e. 
Kusala of other kinds is quite common, both out there in the form of 
teachings of other religions, as well as possible arising in human and 
other higher realms. But knowledge of Dhamma even of the pariyatti 
level is extremely rare. A Buddha Sasana is just a fraction compared to 
the times without it, and in a day we can see how little right view arises = 

even though we have the Teachings and some good teachers ;-), to 
remind us again and again. This I think is because the propensity to 
wrong view and attachment to `self' is so great and that in the process, 
we happily identify with the lesser form of kusala. 

It seems that even the majority Buddhists doesn't really appreciate this 
most important teaching given by the Buddha, namely Anatta, and are in 
fact quite satisfied with those other kusala. When pressed on the 
question of anatta, some just want to run away. I think in the end it 
boils down to how much one has really heard about these things 
accumulated from countless lifetimes. If panna is too weak to see the 
importance of eradicating ignorance, then one will prefer to develop 
other levels of kusala. 

And I think this corresponds with seeing the importance of the 
development right view on the one hand and seeking a short cut 
through different practices on the other. If one really saw the 
importance of Right View, then it is the `intellectual understanding' that = 

one will naturally seek to have each time one notices how little panna 
there is. Ironically it seems that those who have heard much see the 
importance of more listening and study, whereas those who have not 
heard enough to see this believe that they now can `do' things to 
condition patipatti. :-/

Of course, conditions are very complex and all kinds of accumulations 
approach the Teachings, and I have the habit of generalizing and this 
may be an oversimplification :-(. However, there is also another group 
who I label as materialists. These don't believe in rebirth and existence 
of other realms and their understanding of kamma is quite limited. 
Some of them even go so far as to propose that kusala and akusala are 
relative. Their interpretation of the Teachings is based on what 
they `perceive' in the conventional world. I think that some of them 
are `too clever'; they have good knowledge of worldly matters and trust 
so much their judgement, that anything which cannot be proven within 
the framework of such knowledge, is seen as being merely symbolic. 
Rebirth is interpreted as only this momentary rise and fall of citta, and 
deva realms are symbolic of mental states. And though they may 
appear profound when they talk about momentary birth and death, in 
reality they really believe in `self' and situations. If pressed, some will= 

admit that the goal in life is to be `happy'! And when this is the case, 
then naturally they will see Buddha's and other teachings as being mere 
strategies to this end. I am not sure who is in a better position though!? = 


This is already too much proliferation, so enough I think for today. :-)

Metta,
Sukin.
	
33002

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 2:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea

 	
Hi Phil (Kom* & Sukin** & Dan***),

Good to read your feedback;-)

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> Ph: I think this would be true for something subtle, like choosing 
> between harsh speech and gentle speech, or between daydreaming of 
> something unwholesome or staying in the moment to examine realities, 
> but when it comes to gross defilements like being interested in war 
> footage, I would disagree and say something can and should be done 
> about it. We DO have an option with the crude excesses, I'm thinking -
> with subtle or latent defilements it's a different story. 
....
S: Like Kom* was stressing:
Kom: ‘none other than the Buddha can teach about the anattaness of all
realities. It is not only the conceptual understanding of anattaness that
the Buddha taught, but ultimately, it is the reality arising now, and the
wisdom that realizes it directly, what anattaness is all about.’ 

We think ‘we’ have lots of options , but these too are conditioned moments
of thinking. Does this mean that we just follow the war footage and be
overcome by the ‘crude excesses’? That would not be right either. An
understanding of anatta or conditioned dhammas means there is more
knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states, not less. Whether kusala or
akusala cittas arise now or whether there is enough restraint to abstain
from clicking on www. Iraq.com, however, depends on many conditions, none
of which include ‘Self-Option’, though a wrong view about ‘Self-Option’
and thinking in this will in itself be a condition for further wrong views
in future.
....
> Ph: Yes, it's not an attachment to believing that the other option 
> is more fertile, but I really have to believe that allowing onself to 
> be further polluted by certain kinds of media - pronography, for 
> example - in the belief that it is an equally valid way of examining 
> rupa and nama could be a trap for a beginner like myself to fall 
> into. 
....
S: That’s not quite how I'd put it. My point was that whatever cittas,
cetasikas or rupas are appearing now, by conditions, can be known. If
there is an idea that another activity or nama or rupa has to occur first,
then it’s wrong. If we think that ‘Oh well, might just as well look at the
disturbing news or porn because they’re all namas and rupas just the
same”, that would be equally wrong.
.....
>I think the idea you're expressing above is more valid for 
> people who have made progress in clearing out the crudest defilements.
....
S: Whether or not there has ever been any ‘progress’ or insight, dhammas
are still conditioned and the only way for there to be any ‘clearing out’
is by the development of understanding of present dhammas.
....
> Let's think of the citta stream as an actual river. I'm talking 
> about clearing out rotten logs and old bicycles and washing machines 
> that are blocking the flow. 
....
S: Who does the clearing out? There are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas
as you know.
....
>When that's done, the time will come to 
> take a more refined, less self-directed approach. That's the way I'm 
> seeing it now. I wonder if anyone else agrees that there is the need 
> for self to do some heavy work at the beginning to prepare for the 
> release of self? 
...
S: Don’t worry - the Great Majority will be on the ‘need for self’ side
anywhere you look;-).
....
Kind of like hiring a fellow to work without telling 
> him that the work he will be doing will be the preliminary stages of 
> a process that will lead to his being laid off!
....
S: :-)I love the analogy (and all the others you give in other posts). 
The problem is that the more you rely on this fellow and the more he seems
to be the answer to your prayers, the harder it’ll be to ever lay him off
or to see the need to do so. In other words, self-view just leads to more
self-view. It never leads to insight.
....
> Ph: I can see the truth here. I guess I am impatient as always for 
> results in this lifetime. 
....
S: Exactly. Clinging to results leads us down all sorts of blind alleys I
think.
....
I should wait until right understanding 
> gradually leads me away from bad habits. But you know, my attachment 
> to the media is so unwholesome that I can clearly feel the benefits 
> from even one day without. 
....
S: So there’s nothing wrong in following the regimen you’re following -
switching off, cycling and so on. Whatever one does, there can be sati and
panna. The point is that each citta, each moment of thinking, each
intention or reflection on kusala and akusala is conditioned and only
panna can know this. Seeing and the visible object seen now cannot be any
other way. We have no idea what will be conditioned next.
...
>I go cycling, and stay in the moment, or 
> at worst think of dhamma topics - but if I go cycling after devouring 
> news, I think of Iraq, and find myself calculating how much harm Bush 
> has suffered from this, and ridiculous things like that. I wouldn't 
> want to die with that kind of hostility at work in me, though I know 
> of course that it is rising in a conditioned way and that the roots 
> of it can't be removed by sheer abstinence. I just feel so much 
> lighter and less irritable when I avoid watching the news.
....
S: All by conditions, not by self.
Here’s an amusing post by Dan on the topic I think***:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8754
And a quote from the same Ven Dhammadharo that Azita was talking about:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6683
Also an excerpt from the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta on the process of
eating without a self:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16728.html
....
> I appreciate you feedback and will be rereading it.
....
S: Likewise.

I really appreciated this quote from Sukin**, so I’m using your post as an
excuse to quote it and sign off;-)
....
Sukin: When I first heard about saccannana, I realized how different it is
for someone who has developed wisdom to the level of `not being drawn'
into any elaborate mental chatter "about" dhamma, but instead seeing more
the importance of knowing the arising dhamma in the moment. Someone of
this level would be one who really listens deeply and with respect. But
those like me, hardly hear a sentence, and already are driven to write a
commentary :-(.

I think I've written a commentary too :-(

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33003

From: nana_palo <nana_palo@c...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 6:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] PHOTOS from the April 2004 meeting

 	
Dear Group,

I am invited by a group to present Buddhism in relation with Leadership. I
should be grateful if anyone from this group could inform me the resources
or any other materials, or if please, could send personally to my personal
email selamat@d... or nana_palo@c...

anumodana,

selamat rodjali
----- Original Message -----
From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 2:39 AM
Subject: [dsg] PHOTOS from the April 2004 meeting


> Dear Group,
>
> Tom and Bev Westheimer (from New Hamshire) :-)) have added a couple
> of photos to the DSG Meetings photo folder:
> http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst
>
> The first photo shows Bev, Betty and K. Sujin. The second photo is
> of the Foundation taken from the carpark.
>
> Click on the '3DSG Meetings' folder, click on 'show all' and then
> click on the thumbnail photo to enlarge.
>
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33004

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 6:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] my vacation

 	
Hello Nina, and all

Nina: > Also a reminder that the Element of Water,
> cohesion or fluidity does NOT appear through the bodysense, that it 
is not
> tangible object. The Hautes Fagnes, Ardennes, is very marshy. I 
slipped and
> landed on my back in a pool while going along a stream without a 
proper path
> ( heavy going on stones, etc) and noticed (by inference, not by 
direct
> awareness) how soft water is and then there was some cold. 


Ph: Weclcome back Nina. I thought of this post yesterday because 
while walking in the park I stopped to take a look at a little man- 
made brook that runs through the park. Sat at a place where the 
stream ran through two boulders and thought I'd try to "see" the 
water. So I had a close look at it and was intellectually aware of 
seeing consciousness and the visible object. And then realized that I 
couldn't actually see the visible object "water" - water is 
transparent- but instead was seeing light that was reflecting, and 
movement of rushing through the gap between the rocks, and the dark 
shape of the rocks. So it was a kind of first step at seeing how 
visual object is not always what we think. 
And then I remembered your post and decided to slip and land in the 
water to see if it was tangible or not.... ;) Seriously, I'm glad you 
weren't hurt.

Metta,
Phil
	
33005

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation.

 	
Dear Htoo,
I did not go to your web, just immersed in my own projects. But one remark:
these hetus are so relevant to daily life, we can never discuss them enough.
With examples from our own life! I would like people to see that they are
not theory. They can all be verified.
Nina. 
op 12-05-2004 20:47 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@y...:

> In that page, root condition or hetu paccaya is explained to some extent.
> There are 6 roots or 6 hetus. They are lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and
> amoha.
	
33006

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

 	
Dear Philip, Icaro, Azita and all,
op 12-05-2004 20:01 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...:
> The first sentence of Cittuppaada-ka.n.da.m:
>> kaamaavacara a.t.tha mahaacittaani.
> Let's Go!!!!
N: Philip, you wrote about some problems connected with surfing on the web
war program. It is a very human situation and with the Dhammasangani in hand
I would like to make some practical observations.
We all have troubling accumulations with regard to different things,
depending on the individual. But we can learn from them. We can learn more
about our deeply accumulated akusala. Only lokuttara citta can eradicate
latent tendencies. But we can develop more understanding, we can learn that
kusala citta as well as akusala citta are conditioned. What has happened has
happened and it is of no use to have regret, then you only accumulate more
aversion. Let's just consider the present now. We cannot plan or select
anything with regard to the future which has not come yet, but we can
understand conditions.
With Icaro I am studying the first kusala citta, mentioned in the
Dhammasangani: 
"Which dhammas are kusala? At a time when kusala citta of the sensesphere
has arisen, accompanied by happy feeling and associated with understanding,
referring to any object..."
Then we read about all the accompanying cetasikas, the universals, the
particulars and all the sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas that have rushed in to
assist the kusala citta.
They all arose together, at a certain moment in time. This is a very
impressive, terse reminder going straight to the heart, because it is so
true. It shows us that many conditions have to cooperate to enable kusala
citta to arise. It is really amazing. And it arises before we can blink our
eyes. 
It is the same with akusala citta, it arises already before we can do
anything. 
But there can be a change from akusala to kusala, although it is momentary
so long as akusala is not yet eradicated. We read in the Co to the Dhmsg,
the Expositor (p. 100):
<A person thinking: 'I ought to do meritorious deeds,' has his mind
'determined' for moral acts, 'bent' only on moral acts by inhibiting immoral
acts, well 'trained' by constant practice of good. And has 'laid to heart'
through such sufficing conditions as residence in a suitable place,
(assistance from or) dependence on good associates, hearing the good Law
(Dhamma), merit performed in former existences, etc. ...
For this first class of consciousness is accompanied by joy, because a
desirable object having arisen, abundance of such factors as faith are
reasons for joy...Therefore abundance of faith, purity of views, seeing
advantage in merit, should be understood as factors for this consciousness
in making it accompanied by joy.
Eleven states also conduce to the production of zest ( or rapture) as a
factor of wisdom, namely, recollection of the Buddha, of the Law (Dhamma),
of the Order, of the precepts, of self-sacrifice, of spirits (devas), of
peace, avoidance of rough (i.e., ill-tempered ) persons, serving meek
persons, reflection on a Suttanta which instills faith and a tendency to all
this. It is thus that 'accompanied by joy' should be understood.>
I read part of this to Lodewijk at luncheon, but he likes it so much that I
have to read it again at dinner. This is stimulating talk from Buddhaghosa.
We can prove all this: when our confidence has become stronger happy feeling
and enthusiasm (piti) can arise with the kusala citta. At the same time we
need panna, because lobha with happy feeling is bound to arise in
alternation with kusala citta. Wihout panna we may easily delude ourselves.
As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into.
There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right
conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a
condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks, we
all need these in times of trouble. The Abhidhamma guides us so that we come
to know the akusala cittas and kusala cittas arising in our life.
Philip, you asked what to do, how to prevent akusala. Azita gave us a good
reminder: <just recently A. Sujin said something that made me think - are we
Kalyanamitta for others?>
Thank you, Azita, wonderful.
Kalyanamitta, a good friend. Philip, some time ago you wrote to me that you
wanted to give a gift to show your appreciation of the Dhamma. Here is
another way that is even better: be a good Dhamma friend for others. But you
are already, I know. Being a beginner, it does not matter, we all are
beginners. You also listened to the Dhamma in past lives. Your confidence is
growing, you will see more the value of kusala, expressed in words and
deeds. This will make conditions change. I can predict that you will be so
busy with helping others (remember, life is too short), that there is simply
no time for watching 'I do not know what' on the web. It is just that
conditions work out by themselves. It is important to help others by
stimulating talk, helping them to see the value of kusala and especially the
development of understanding.
Once in the U.S.A. I heard a teacher say that most people live under the
standard of their capacities, thus, everybody could do so much more than
they actually do. This impressed me, I have always remembered this.
A kalyanamitta: in the teachings an enlightened person is a real
kalyanamitta. The sotapanna understands through direct experience kamma and
vipaka. Thus also that the worldly conditions of praise and blame etc. are
just moments of vipaka, produced by kamma. I sway too much by the worldly
conditions, I must confess. I have still much to learn, I always need to
develop the perfection of truthfulness, and to be guided by the Abhidhamma.
Philip, I am so glad you brought up this very daily example, it is so useful
to consider. 
Nina.
	
33007

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 7:11am
Subject: Looking for two quotes. Help requested.

 	
Hello All

I'm trying to find two quotes that are probably located in either the 
Majjhima, Samyutta, or Anguttara Nikays. Just in case anyone happens to have read 
them recently and or remembers where they are, I thought I'd take a shot to see 
if anyone knows where they are. I can only paraphrase the quotes and my 
paraphrasing may be more in line with the PTS translations than the Wisdom 
translations.

The first one has the phrase something like...

“Entangled (trapped) in a person�

I believe the idea it is expressing is that self-view traps one in samsara.

The second one is phrased something like...

“If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from it. But as it 
is not a self, there is an escape from it.�

Thanks for your time in reading this.

TG


	
33008

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 1:17pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation.

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
Dear Htoo,
I did not go to your web, just immersed in my own projects. But one 
remark:

With examples from our own life! I would like people to see that they 
are not theory. 
Nina.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Nina,

Thanks for your reply and your good remark. I do know that you have 
been busy with the site/s you involve. Sujin also wants people to see 
patthana are not theory but there are examples in our daily life and 
in our own life, I think. 

I first wrote as files and put them on different groups. There is 
hardly any comment with the exceptions of some people who are real 
dhamma learners not just to show their abilities.

To the worse, some group moderator/s angrily sent me email/s to 
remove my files. I just smiled and I removed at once.

Sarah who is the owner of this site has a good mood and a good 
understanding on me. But she has space problems with her site. So I 
stopped sending more file. She advised me to write as a series at 
this site. But what I feel here is that the messages will be sparsed 
and may be worse than my 60 messages spread with different headings 
while they are in tandem messages.

Patthana dhamma that I am trying to write is discussion. I just write 
them and to discuss any point of interest. So I just put them on the 
net instead of series messages.

If you have small tiny bit of time, I would like to invite you to my 
group JourneyToNibbana. And discuss some matter of these. My group is 
not so active like DSG :-). Once I told Sarah that I received 100 
emails from her group and I stopped for a while then. I hope you can 
manage to come to my group and discuss dhamma.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

PS: I will be looking forward to hearing from you. At this site or 
through my direct email address. htootintnaing@y...
	
33009

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Looking for two quotes. Help requested.

 	
Hello TG, all,

Not sure if this will be of any help at all. 

TG: "Entangled (trapped) in a person"

The only reference to 'tangle' or 'entangle' that I recall is in the 
1.Devataasamyutta 23 (3) Tangle (Jata Sutta)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-006.html

TG: "If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from 
it. But as it
is not a self, there is an escape from it."

It has an echo of "Malunkhyaputta, with the view, the soul and body 
is the same, a holy life is not lead, even with the view the soul is 
different from the body, a holy life is not lead. Malunkhyaputta, 
with the view, the soul and body is the same or even with the view 
the soul is different from the body, there is birth, decay, death, 
grief, lament, unpleasantness and displeasure, I declare he is 
destroyed here and now."
http://tinyurl.com/2mssd 

Also sounds a little like:
http://www.cains.com/bucha/Anatta.htm

Hope someone finds the exact reference for you,
metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote:
> Hello All
> 
> I'm trying to find two quotes that are probably located in either 
the 
> Majjhima, Samyutta, or Anguttara Nikays. Just in case anyone 
happens to have read 
> them recently and or remembers where they are, I thought I'd take 
a shot to see 
> if anyone knows where they are. I can only paraphrase the quotes 
and my 
> paraphrasing may be more in line with the PTS translations than 
the Wisdom 
> translations.
> 
> The first one has the phrase something like...
> 
> “Entangled (trapped) in a person�
> 
> I believe the idea it is expressing is that self-view traps one in 
samsara.
> 
> The second one is phrased something like...
> 
> “If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from 
it. But as it 
> is not a self, there is an escape from it.�
> 
> Thanks for your time in reading this.
> 
> TG
	
33010

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 11:15am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for two quotes. Help requested.

 	
Hi Christine

Thanks for the references. The first one may actually be the one I was 
looking for or one directly related to it. "Entangled in an entanglement" is a 
better way of saying "trapped in a person" which is probably more along the lines 
of a PTS rendering.

I don't think the other quotes are exactly what I was looking for but they 
are excellent quotes and thanks for the help.

TG


	
33011

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 8:59pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

 	
Sukin,

Thanks for keeping the conversation going – sorry for being a bit 
slow on the up-take.

-------------------
S: > Do you mean the difference between kusala of dana, sila and 
samatha bhavana, and panna of the level of pariyatti? 
--------------------

Well, yes, but does pariyatti always have panna? (That brings us 
back to the beginning of our discussion.) Can there be kusala 
Dhamma study without panna? If I hear a bird-song without 
attachment, aversion or heedlessness, but also without panna, that 
is sila, I think. If I hear the Dhamma in the same way, is that the 
same? Or, does the object of my consciousness (the Dhamma) make it 
fundamentally different in some way?

I think the answer is slowly dawning on me! I think you and Sarah 
have been telling me that pariyatti (which, strictly speaking, knows 
only concepts) always has panna if only of the kind that knows 
kusala from akusala. We don't need to speculate on which exact 
citta panna arises in -- in between cittas that conceptualise the 
Dhamma there may be moments in which panna takes paramattha dhamma 
as object. So, pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand.

It's a shame to have to snip any of your post, but I'll move on to 
another point you make:
-------------------
S: > It seems that even the majority Buddhists doesn't really 
appreciate this most important teaching given by the Buddha, namely 
Anatta, and are in fact quite satisfied with those other kusala. 
When pressed on the question of anatta, some just want to run away. 
-------------------

Yes, members of the Non Action Group (as we have been called) might 
not have more kusala than the Action Group -- sometimes a lot less --
but we do love the doctrine of anatta.

---------------
<snip>
S: > Ironically it seems that those who have heard much see the 
importance of more listening and study, whereas those who have not 
heard enough to see this believe that they now can `do' things to 
condition patipatti. :-/
--------------

I remember apologising to a dsg friend if I seemed to be telling 
him, "been there, done that!" No one likes to be told that about 
their venerated meditation experiences: words 
like, `smug' `pretentious' ` patronising' and `twit' spring to their 
minds :-) But, as you imply, there does seem to be a one-way 
process: A lot of us have come from formal-practice to the anatta-
centred view of Buddhism, but have any of us gone the other way?

--------------------
S: > However, there is also another group 
who I label as materialists. These don't believe in rebirth and 
existence of other realms and their understanding of kamma is quite 
limited. Some of them even go so far as to propose that kusala and 
akusala are relative. Their interpretation of the Teachings is based 
on what they `perceive' in the conventional world. I think that some 
of them are `too clever'; they have good knowledge of worldly 
matters and trust so much their judgement, that anything which 
cannot be proven within the framework of such knowledge, is seen as 
being merely symbolic. 
Rebirth is interpreted as only this momentary rise and fall of 
citta, and deva realms are symbolic of mental states. And though 
they may appear profound when they talk about momentary birth and 
death, in reality they really believe in `self' and situations. If 
pressed, some will admit that the goal in life is to be `happy'! 
----------------------

I seem to remember subscribing to those views. When there is no 
knowledge of Abhidhamma, we can't know that the Buddha was talking 
about things that are absolutely real. As a result, everything is 
seen, as you said, as relative. Even anatta is seen as relative. 
(Heaven forbid!)

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33012

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 11:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for two quotes. Help requested.

 	
Hi TG (& Chris),

--- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hello All
> The second one is phrased something like...
> 
> ‘If this body/mind was a self, there could be no escape from it. But
> as it 
> is not a self, there is an escape from it.’?
....
S: How about this Udana?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03a.html
“Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying near Savatthi in the
Jeta Wood at Anathapindika's monastery. On that occasion the Lord was
instructing... the bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbana, and
those bhikkhus... were intent on listening to Dhamma. 

Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion
this inspired utterance: 

There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a
not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born,
not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be
discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But
since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a
not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born,
brought-to-being, made, conditioned.”

From the commentary (Masefield transl):

Udana comy 395 :

“ ‘Monks, if there were not’ that unconditioned element having as its own
nature that which is unborn and so on, ‘there could not be made known’,
there could not be discovered,there could not be witnessed, ‘here’, in
this world, ‘the escape’, allayment without remainder, ‘for that which is
conditioned’ reckoned as the khandha-pentad of form and so on that has as
its own nature (sabhava) being born and so forth. For states associated
with the ariyan path, such as right view and so on, as they proceed making
nibbana their object, extirpate the defilements without remainder. In this
way, there is made known in this connection the non-occurrence of, the
disappearance of, the escape from, the entire dukkha belonging to the
cycle...”


Metta,

Sarah
p.s Thanks to Chris, Nina and RobM for the hell realm references
====================== 


	
33013

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 13, 2004 11:31pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation.

 	
Hi Htoo,

--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: 
> I first wrote as files and put them on different groups. There is 
> hardly any comment with the exceptions of some people who are real 
> dhamma learners not just to show their abilities.
....
S: I’m posting p.30 on roots below so that Nina and others who are busy
can read it easily. It's beautifully presented at the link and I can't
copy the pictures of course. I’m rushed now, but will also look at it more
carefully over the weekend - an important and difficult subject. Just
because people don’t make comments doesn’t mean it’s not read or not of
interest. It’s the same with our Vism or other series - few comments at
the time, but many people tell me they find it intereresting and helpful.
For others it’s too detailed, just as when we went through the
Satipatthana commentary and Nina’s ADL. 

If you wish to continue posting pages from 30, pls do, perhaps one a week,
but don’t be deterred by how many or few responses you have. I’ll try to
follow and comment/discuss/question if possible as well. 

Also, most people give priority to posts particularly addressed to them,
so maybe you can join in some other threads, like the Vism one too, giving
assistance or adding comments/queeries.
....
> Patthana dhamma that I am trying to write is discussion. I just write 
> them and to discuss any point of interest. So I just put them on the 
> net instead of series messages.
...
S: I think friends like Nina or myself are more likely to read extracts on
the list here. As you say, it’s busy and so we may not follow your links
often. Pls continue to join in any of our discussions on DSG, Htoo. We
value your input.

Metta,

Sarah
=====
<apologies for any formatting problems>
Htoo - PATTHANA  DHAMMA
                                                                            
30
>Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are one
of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 roots or
6 hetus. All these 6 roots or hetus are cetasika dhamma. They are lobha,
dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha.
Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and
amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with
abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. Lobha is also known as
tanha, upadana, samudaya and so on. Moha is sometimes called avijja.
Alobha is sometimes refered to dana or offering but it is non-attachment.
Adosa is metta or loving kindness. Amoha is pannindriya cetasika and
simply called panna and is sometimes called vijja.
There are 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Among these 89 cittas,
18 cittas do not have any hetu or root with them. They are called ahetuka
cittas and they are not conditioned by root condition. These 18 cittas are
10 pancavinnana cittas, 5 akusala and 5 kusala in origin, 2 sampaticchana
cittas or receiving consciousness again akusala and kusala, 2 upekkha
santirana cittas, akusala and kusala, and 1 kusala somanassa santirana 
citta. These 15 cittas are vipaka cittas and they are called ahetuka
vipaka cittas.
There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. They are pancadvaravajjana citta,
manodvaravajjana citta, and somanassa hasituppada citta. 15 ahetuka vipaka
cittas and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas are not supported by root condition.
These 18 cittas are ahetuka cittas while all other cittas are called as
sahetuka cittas. There are 71 sahetuka cittas. They are 2 ekahetuka
cittas, 22 dvihetuka cittas, and 47 tihetuka cittas.
All these 71 sahetuka cittas are supported by root condition and this
condition is called as hetu paccaya. Hetu serves as the root for the whole
tree. The root of a tree gives water to the whole tree, supports nutriment
to the whole tree. Like a tree, the whole tree of nama-rupa are supported
by stated 6 hetus. As these 6 hetus are present, they support the stem
citta, all the branches cetasikas and all the leaves rupa dhamma.
Ekahetuka cittas are 2 moha mula cittas. In these 2 cittas, there is no
other hetu but just moha hetu. So these cittas are called ekahetuka
cittas. Eka means one and that single hetu is moha. 2 moha mula cittas are
upekkha samagatam uddhacca sampayutta citta and upekkha sahagatam
vicikiccha sampayutta citta. The root is moha hetu. The stem is uddhacca
citta and vicikiccha citta.
There are cetasika branches in the whole tree of nama-rupa. In uddacca
citta, there are 1.phassa or contact, 2. vedana or feeling, 3. cetana or
volition, 4. sanna or perception, 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness, 6.
jivitindriya or mental life, 7. manasikara or attention, 8. vitakka or
initial application, 9. vicara or sustained application, 10. viriya or
effort, 11. adhimokkha or decisiveness, 12. ahirika or shamelessness, 13.
anottappa or fearlessness, 14. uddhacca or spreading. In that tree of
uddhacca there are a total of 15 cetasikas including the root moha. Leaves
are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa where uddhacca citta has to depend on that
is hadaya vatthu, and utuja rupa and aharaja rupa are also so there.
In the tree of vicikiccha, the root that is a single root is moha as well.
The stem is vicikiccha citta. There are cetasika branches. In vicikiccha
citta, as it cannot decide anything there does not arise adhimokkha. So
there will be 14 cetasikas that arise in uddhacca citta. But in vicikiccha
citta an extra cetasika is vicikiccha cetasikas. So there are a total of
15 cetasikas in the vicikiccha tree. The root is moha. The stem is
vicikiccha citta. The branches are 14 cetasikas ( with moha there will be
15 cetasikas ). Leaves are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa hadaya vatthu, utuja
rupa and aharaja rupa.In both trees, moha is the chief. Moha supports as
root conditions to all those dhamma cited above. This condition is called
root condition. This is hetu paccaya.<
========================================
                                         

	
33014

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 2:39am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

 	
Hi Ken H (and * for Sarah)

> -------------------
> S: > Do you mean the difference between kusala of dana, sila and 
> samatha bhavana, and panna of the level of pariyatti? 
> --------------------
> Ken: 
> Well, yes, but does pariyatti always have panna? (That brings us 
> back to the beginning of our discussion.) Can there be kusala 
> Dhamma study without panna? If I hear a bird-song without 
> attachment, aversion or heedlessness, but also without panna, that 
> is sila, I think. If I hear the Dhamma in the same way, is that the 
> same? Or, does the object of my consciousness (the Dhamma) make 
it 
> fundamentally different in some way?

OK, now I get you. Once I wondered about distinguishing between 
moments of vipaka and javana in relation to hearing or reading 
Dhamma, I am still not clear. It seems though that recognizing that the 
sound or written word is Dhamma at all, this must be kusala, no? What 
is pariyatti, is it the words recited from the Tipitaka, or is it the meaning 
understood? I think it is the understanding (panna), which qualifies 
anything heard or read as Dhamma. *So Sarah, your commentaries 
are `pariyatti' as far as I am concerned ;-). 

>Ken: I think the answer is slowly dawning on me! I think you and 
Sarah 
> have been telling me that pariyatti (which, strictly speaking, knows 
> only concepts) always has panna if only of the kind that knows 
> kusala from akusala. We don't need to speculate on which exact 
> citta panna arises in -- in between cittas that conceptualise the 
> Dhamma there may be moments in which panna takes paramattha 
dhamma 
> as object. So, pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand.

I am not sure, but sometime back I had the thought that if after 
conceptually considering the Dhamma, there follows a sense of 
detachment, it may be because there is weak level of insight into 
anicca, dukkha or anatta. Do you think am I exaggerating? :-( 

> -------------------
> S: > It seems that even the majority Buddhists doesn't really 
> appreciate this most important teaching given by the Buddha, namely 
> Anatta, and are in fact quite satisfied with those other kusala. 
> When pressed on the question of anatta, some just want to run away. 
> -------------------
> 
> Ken: Yes, members of the Non Action Group (as we have been called) 
might 
> not have more kusala than the Action Group -- sometimes a lot less --
> but we do love the doctrine of anatta.
> 
> ---------------

Yes I used to think that because we concentrate more on getting the 
facts right, little attention is given to other forms of kusala, so that at 
any given moment, that NAGs would appear less `religious' than other 
Buddhists. 

> <snip>
> S: > Ironically it seems that those who have heard much see the 
> importance of more listening and study, whereas those who have not 
> heard enough to see this believe that they now can `do' things to 
> condition patipatti. :-/
> --------------
> 
>Ken: I remember apologising to a dsg friend if I seemed to be telling 
> him, "been there, done that!" No one likes to be told that about 
> their venerated meditation experiences: words 
> like, `smug' `pretentious' ` patronising' and `twit' spring to their 
> minds :-) But, as you imply, there does seem to be a one-way 
> process: A lot of us have come from formal-practice to the anatta-
> centred view of Buddhism, but have any of us gone the other way?
> --------------------

Lol. Just this morning I was reading a post on another list and I got the 
impression that this poster was quite judgemental. But immediately, I 
was reminded about my own posts here. I reflected on how such 
language may create more negative influence than any positive. I mean, 
can we learn anything from judging ourselves even? Only kusala citta is 
useful and effective isn't it? But then I ask myself, what can I do? 
Answer, no-control, no one can predict conditions and as long as 
accumulations of akusala far exceeds panna, then this kind of preachy 
language on my part will continue to be. Blame it on accumulations. ;-) 
Besides, I thought about Sarah's and especially Nina's writings, that 
theirs are generally kind and gentle, yet often it doesn't make any 
difference, some people won't agree anyway. So I concluded that it 
must be OK to have all sort of styles including mine, on dsg. 

> S: > However, there is also another group 
> who I label as materialists. These don't believe in rebirth and 
> existence of other realms and their understanding of kamma is quite 
> limited. Some of them even go so far as to propose that kusala and 
> akusala are relative. Their interpretation of the Teachings is based 
> on what they `perceive' in the conventional world. I think that some 
> of them are `too clever'; they have good knowledge of worldly 
> matters and trust so much their judgement, that anything which 
> cannot be proven within the framework of such knowledge, is seen as 
> being merely symbolic. 
> Rebirth is interpreted as only this momentary rise and fall of 
> citta, and deva realms are symbolic of mental states. And though 
> they may appear profound when they talk about momentary birth and 
> death, in reality they really believe in `self' and situations. If 
> pressed, some will admit that the goal in life is to be `happy'! 
> ----------------------
> 
> Ken: I seem to remember subscribing to those views. When there is 
no 
> knowledge of Abhidhamma, we can't know that the Buddha was 
talking 
> about things that are absolutely real. As a result, everything is 
> seen, as you said, as relative. Even anatta is seen as relative. 
> (Heaven forbid!)

Yes, I had the same views too. And I remember that prior to this stage, 
I thought religion in general including Buddhism, was for the weak!!! My 
memory of what I was fifteen years ago, makes it seem quite 
unbelievable that, that person then, would be here today discussing 
these things. :-)

Don't feel any obligation to respond quickly, I have a response to 
Howard to make, which I will probably do tomorrow. :-)

Metta,
Sukin
	
33015

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 10:06am
Subject: Re: Self-views (was: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana)

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Suravira (Andrew & All),
> 
> >As regards my current focus on the 
> > dharma, I am preparing a series of scripts (for broadcast on our 
> > local public access channel) on the practices of Dana & Sila. On 
the 
> > advise of Venerable Bhikkhu Buddha Rakkhita, the program series 
on 
> > Buddhism is following the general sequence of teachings given by 
> > Buddha to lay practioners - 1st Dana, next Sila and then Bhavana.
> ...
> S: thank you very much for telling us about the program series 
which
> sounds very interesting and a lot of work. Pls be sure to tell us,
> especially the American members, when these are broadcast and so 
on.

[Suravira] If you wish, I can provide transcripts of the shows for 
distribution within this group. It would likely prove to be a great 
benefit to me to have feedback on the transcripts from participants 
in this group (prior to final broadcast recording).

Tapes of the shows will be distributed throughout the Public 
Broadcast television system. If they choose to pick up the show, 
local channels will schedule it within thier programming at their 
discression. In all likelihood, the dates and times of their 
broadcasts will be unknown to me.

> Another (Australian) friend of ours mentioned recently that he is
> producing a television series based on `What the Buddha Taught'.
> 
[Suravira] It is a real priviledge to obtain permission to produce a 
television series based upon that dharma book.

> I'm also finding your discussions with Andrew useful. Can we say 
that
> whatever the date or culture, all self-views consist of the same 20
> sakkaya-ditthi* and that all other wrong views as we read about in 
the
> Brahmajala Sutta are based on these same self-views that have to be
> understood and eradicated first?
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah

[Suravira] Yes, whatever the date or culture, the same 20 must be 
understood and eradicated. The challenge when sharing the profound 
and subtle wisdom contained within the Brahmajala Sutta is 
expressing it in a manner that does not defile it - by that I mean 
avoiding the cultivation of further or ancilliary false views that 
arise in the audience member in response to the 20 sakkaya-ditthi.

> * From Nyantiloka's dict:
> sakkáya-ditthi
> 
> 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). 
> 
> It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-
winning
> (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). 
> 
> There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by 
applying 4
> types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence 
(khandha): 
> 
> * (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, 
perception,
> mental formations or consciousness; 
> * (6-10) to be contained in them; 
> * (11-15) to be independent of them; 
> * (16-20) to be the owner of them (M.44; S.XXII.1). 
> 
> =======================================
> 
> 

With Metta,
Suravira
	
33016

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 10:58am
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta

 	
Hello Andrew,

Sorry about the delay in my response, but I have been very busy 
assisting my clients - feduciary responsibilities take precidence.

> 
> > [Suravira] Seeing how the phrase "false views of individuality" 
is 
> > helpful stems from understanding the typical person's response 
to 
> > the terms 'not-self,' 'non-self' or 'no-self.' Most people who 
> > encounter these's terms immediately doubt their credibility - 
which 
> > is unfortunate. In distinct contrast, most people are amenable 
to 
> > entertaining the concept that they, or that we, may have false, 
or 
> > mistaken, views of our own individuality. In that this "false 
views 
> > of individuality" is more amenable, it is easier to continue to 
> > share with them teachings relating to anatta.
> 
> Andrew: I think what you are saying is that the definition "false 
> views of individuality" is pedagogically more efficient. I 
probably 
> made a similar point to Ken H not so long ago regarding absolute 
and 
> conventional realities. Perhaps this was a result of attending 
> fiction writing courses which push the idea that "you've gotta 
> hook 'em [the readers] on the first page or you've lost 'em"? 
Have 
> you and I adopted this approach for our Dhamma discussions? Are 
we 
> thinking less about the accuracy of our Dhamma views and more 
about 
> the appeal to other worldlings of our Dhamma views? Hmm ... I'll 
> have to think about that one. Many suttas contain reference to 
the 
> monks being "roused" with a Dhamma talk, but I like to think that 
> this invigorating aspect is due to the Dhamma's truth rather than 
any 
> stylistic language that might have been used in its delivery. 
> Furthermore, how can we ever KNOW what language will prompt a 
> listener towards the Dhamma? The language used is only one of 
many 
> conditions that play a part. Sometimes negative language does the 
> trick. A friend of mine was moved to look into Buddhism when he 
read 
> a Christian book describing all the terrible "nonsense" that those 
> poor deluded Buddhists believe in. To him, the "nonsense" sounded 
> great! And he spent a large part of his life thereafter studying 
> Dhamma.
> 
> [Suravira] As regards one's capacity to dispel the notion 
> of "I", "me" 
> > and "mine", that capacity is a function of the heart moreso than 
> the 
> > intellect. It is a function of the heart in that one gradually 
> > becomes dispassionate about "I" "me" and "mine" and the dramas 
that 
> > whirl around them.
> > 
> > Once the heart is more peaceful in relation to that whirling 
drama, 
> > the mind opens of its own accord to this dharma of anatta.
> 
> Andrew: Your point above is not clear to me, I'm sorry. I am 
> confused by your mention of intellect, heart and mind. Most 
people 
> intellectually rebel against anatta, don't they? It is a 
confronting 

[Suravira] I suspect that the intellectual rebellion is fired by 
fear - that the intellectual rebellion is merely a symptom of an 
underlying fear - an emotion. While it is sometimes convenient to 
consider intellect, and emotions as uncoupled, it is my view that 
the two are tightly integrated and interdependent.

When our sense of self is recognized, or even glimpsed, as being 
false (in any aspect), the typical response is (fear, or more 
accurately) FEAR.


> teaching that challenges everything we had taken for granted. So 
> intellectually examining the notion of a permanent self is a very 
> important process, I think. In the last sentence, you seem to be 

[Suravira] Yes, analytical contemplation is an important process. 
However, that process is subordinate to direct realization of anatta 
through the practice of bhavana.

> saying that tranquility of consciousness leads to wisdom. My 

[Suravira] Not that it leads, but that it is a contributing factor.

> understanding is that they arise together in some beautiful 
> consciousness moments but not all. That being so, linking one to 
the 
> other causatively may not be entirely accurate.
> 
> [Suravira] > to apply these exercises in an analytical method is 
> somewhat 
> > beneficial, but it is not possible to directly realize anatta 
with 
> > the intellect.
> 
> Andrew: Agreed. But I suspect it's not possible to directly 
realise 
> anatta when the intellect is in uproar against it, too. Could be 
> wrong on that one, so don't quote me.
> 
> [Suravira] What definition of "self" are you proposing?
> 
> Andrew: I wasn't proposing at all (said the bishop to the 
actress). I 
> see "self" as a concept. In absolute reality, it can only be the 
5 
> khandhas in the present moment.
> 

[Suravira] Hmmm. Consider that the experience of a perception of 
being in time/space is not a concept - it is an intimate matter of 
life and death. The 5 khandhas is merely a model, an abstract 
representation, of the experience.



> > [Suravira] What do you find lacking in its use? Let me 
> > also define individuality as the experience of being in 
time/space, 
> > and a "view of individuality" is defined as a perception of the 
> > experience of being in time/space.
> 
> Andrew: "Individuality" is a conventional term with similar power 
> to "self" and "ego". It doesn't make anatta any easier for me. 
For 
> others, it might.
> 

[Suravira] Well, on the upside, such great doubt can prove to be a 
strong motivating factor for engaging in the practice of bhavana.


With metta,

Suravira

> > [Suravira] Yes. "Bass ackward" is twist on the phrase for "ass 
> > backward"
> 
> Andrew: Where I come from, an "ass" has four legs and can be very 
> stubborn. But I get what you're getting at all the same...
> 
> > [Suravira] The importance of providing a bullet-proof definition 
of 
> > the term "self" is critical within pluralistic cultures - such 
as 
> > those that exist in contemporary western societies. This is so 
in 
> as 
> > much as it is reckless to assume that everyone in the audience 
has 
> > the same understanding of self. For example, most Christians 
would 
> > equate (or even base) the notion of self on a soul, while 
aetheists 
> > would not. 
> > 
> > As regards the presentation of anatta in the cited sutta by the 
> > Buddha, I offer no criticism of his conduct. Yet, as I 
understand 
> > the background of his discourse, the audience was a homogeneous 
> > culture (was composed of 5 monks) in which atta was well defined 
> and 
> > about which a uniform concensus existed. Hence, because of these 
> two 
> > factors, perhaps the Buddha did not need to first establish a 
> > definition of atta for his audience's benefit. As I understand 
the 
> > referenced sutta, the Buddha negated form, feeling, perception, 
> > mental fabrications, and consciousness as equivalents of "self". 
In 
> > addition he asserted that anything which is impermanent is also 
> > unsuitable as an equivalent of "self". In that none of the 5 
monks 
> > raised a concern about some other equivalent for "self" it is 
safe 
> > to infer that they shared the same cultural consensus of 
> what "self" 
> > was conventionally understood to be. Such a consensus does not 
> exist 
> > in contemporary western civilization, nor is an audience hearing 
a 
> > discourse on anatta a homogeneous culture - instead it is more 
than 
> > likely pluralistic (heterogeneous).
> 
> Andrew: I have to question the notion that contemporary western 
> civilization is more pluralistic than India at the time of the 
> Buddha - a time the historians tell us saw the melding of 2 
cultures 
> (after the Aryan invasion some centuries before). My reading 
> suggests quite the opposite! There was also widespread and 
distant 
> trade (without the comfort of having a McDonalds at every 
> crossroads). Take ideas on "permanent self", for example, there 
was 
> a very wide array of definitions of "atman", ranging from a little 
> man who lived in your heart and who popped out every time you went 
to 
> sleep, to some sort of ethereal soul. I don't really know, but 
I'm 
> not prepared to accept that the Buddha's listeners were a 
culturally 
> homogenous bunch until I get a lot more evidence. I'm also 
reminded 
> of that sutta (name escapes me) where the Buddha talks about the 
> different dialects and how one should relate to people who don't 
use 
> your dialect words.
> 
> Best wishes
> Andrew
	
33017

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 11:10am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana

 	
> This sounds fascinating! I teach a weekly class introducing 
> Abhidhamma at our local temple in Kuala Lumpur (my class notes are 
> included in the files section of DSG). 
> 
> I would be very interesting in reading your scripts. There are 
many 
> westerners (I am Canadian) on DSG who could give valuable input.
> 
> My guess is that the script for a 28 minute show would be too long 
to 
> be posted as a single message; perhaps you could break each script 
> into multiple segments. Alternatively, you could get permission 
from 
> Sarah & Jon to upload the scripts to the files section of DSG.
> 
> If you do not want to put the scripts into the public domain at 
this 
> time, then perhaps you could email them to me at rob.moult@j... 
> and we could discuss them together off-line.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

Hello Rob,

Thank you for your offer to review the transcripts. All of the ideas 
you mentioned are worth investigating. And, as you inferred, the 
transcripts would have to be de-constructed into smaller segments.

I have reserved a domain name (www.deerparksangha.org) for 
publishing the full transcripts and DVDs of the programs, but that 
website has not yet been published.

Perhaps the easiest thing to do is to publish increments of the 
transcripts over time at www.deerparksangha.org and solicite 
feedback via an email account.

Let me know what your take on this approach is.

With metta,
Suravira.
	
33018

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 11:39am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation.

 	
Dear Htoo,
thank you for your kind words and invitation to your group, but I am really
in time trouble, having also Pali yahoo, and sometimes Jim's Pali study. And
ongoing projects, translations and so on.
I think it is a good idea to post small parts of your writings. There is a
lot of meaning even in a few sentences as regards these subjects. And some
people here would enjoy it too.
People do not read long mails in general, but what about ten sentences or
so? We read it, contemplate and then we can react to it, write down some
thoughts. 
The fact that you did not receive many reactions does not mean people do not
read it. 
Nina. 
op 13-05-2004 22:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:

> If you have small tiny bit of time, I would like to invite you to my
> group JourneyToNibbana. And discuss some matter of these. My group is
> not so active like DSG :-). Once I told Sarah that I received 100
> emails from her group and I stopped for a while then. I hope you can
> manage to come to my group and discuss dhamma.
	
33019

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 11:39am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation

 	
Dear Philip,
op 13-05-2004 15:58 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:>
Seriously, I'm glad you
> weren't hurt.
N: It was fun. An adventure combined with Dhamma.
I thought of another book. Since you like the Metta book, you may want to
try another one: A. Sujin Wholesome Deeds, also on Zolag. This is Q. and
Answer between A. Sujin and Kh Wandana about the ten kinds of kusala kamma.
It shows how satipatthana can inspire all kinds of kusala.
Nina.
	
33020

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 9:15am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana

 	
Suravira,

I am in the process of writing an article for a newspaper's InterFaith column 
about Dana. I would be interested in trading notes on this topic. Send me 
what you have and I'll send you what I have.

Jack H.


	
33021

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 2:47pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana

 	
Hi Suravira,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" <cbclifford@e...> 
wrote:
> Thank you for your offer to review the transcripts. All of the 
ideas 
> you mentioned are worth investigating. And, as you inferred, the 
> transcripts would have to be de-constructed into smaller segments.
> 
> I have reserved a domain name (www.deerparksangha.org) for 
> publishing the full transcripts and DVDs of the programs, but that 
> website has not yet been published.
> 
> Perhaps the easiest thing to do is to publish increments of the 
> transcripts over time at www.deerparksangha.org and solicite 
> feedback via an email account.
> 
> Let me know what your take on this approach is.

My suggestion is to publish a transcript on the website 
www.deerparksangha.org and then post a message on DSG (and other 
discussion groups in which you may participate) alerting us that new 
material is available for review. DSG would then be used as a forum 
to post our reviews and discuss the reviews.

I am looking forward to reviewing the first transcript. Please let us 
know at DSG when it is available!

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33022

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 3:06pm
Subject: Dana

 	
Hi Jack,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote:
> Suravira,
> 
> I am in the process of writing an article for a newspaper's 
InterFaith column 
> about Dana. I would be interested in trading notes on this topic. 
Send me 
> what you have and I'll send you what I have.

There is a wealth of information on Dana at 
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm

Here is a summary (extracted from various authors on this website):

Introduction
============
In the teaching of the Buddha, the practice of giving claims a place 
of special eminence. It is the foundation and seed of spiritual 
development. Whenever the Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience 
who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, he would start 
by emphasizing the value of giving. Only after his audience had come 
to appreciate this virtue would he introduce other aspects of his 
teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the benefits in 
renunciation, and only after all these principles had made their 
impact on the minds of his listeners would he expound to them the 
Four Noble Truths.

Strictly speaking, giving does not appear in its own right among the 
factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, nor does it enter among the 
other requisites of enlightenment. It serves as a basis and 
preparation which underlies and quietly supports the entire endeavor 
to free the mind from defilements. Besides appearing as the first 
topic in the graduated exposition of the Dhamma, the practice of 
giving also figures as the first of the three bases of meritorious 
deeds, as the first of the four means of benefiting others, and as 
the first of the ten paramis or "perfections" (sublime virtues to be 
cultivated by all aspirants to enlightenment).

Giving can also be identified with generosity. Generosity is the 
inward disposition to give, a disposition which is strengthened by 
acts of giving and makes possible more demanding acts of self-
sacrifice. Generosity is included among the essential attributes of 
the good or superior person, along with other qualities as faith, 
morality, learning and wisdom. The goal of the path is the 
destruction of greed, hate, and delusion. The cultivation of 
generosity directly debilitates greed and hate, while facilitating 
that pliancy of mind that allows for the eradication of delusion.

The Practice of Giving
======================
By itself, dana brings wholesome kamma. When coupled with morality, 
concentration and insight, dana leads to liberation from saµsara. 
Giving yields benefits in the present and future lives, even when we 
are not aware of this fact, but when the volition is accompanied by 
understanding, we can greatly increase the merits.

The amount of merit gained varies according to three factors: the 
quality of the donor's motive, the spiritual purity of the recipient 
and the kind and size of the gift. In the practice of giving, we 
should keep our mind pure in the act of giving, select the worthiest 
recipients available, and choose the most appropriate and generous 
gifts one can afford.

The Factor of Volition
======================
The volition of the donor before, during and after the act of 
generosity is the most important of the three factors involved in the 
practice of giving. Buddhist teaching devotes special attention to 
the psychological basis of giving, distinguishing among the different 
states of mind with which one may give. A fundamental distinction is 
made between acts of giving that lack wisdom and those that are 
accompanied by wisdom. Generosity associated with wisdom before, 
during and after the act is the highest type of giving. Examples of 
wise giving are: 
- Giving with the understanding that the generous act will bring 
beneficial results in the future according to the law of kamma;
- Giving while aware that the gift, the recipient and the giver are 
all impermanent
- Giving with the aim of enhancing one's efforts to become enlightened

As the giving of a gift takes a certain amount of time, a single act 
of giving may be accompanied by each of these three types of 
understanding at a different stage in the process.

The best motive for giving is the intention to attain Nibbana. 
Liberation is achieved by eliminating the mental defilements 
(kilesa), rooted in the delusion of a controlling and lasting "I." 
Once this illusion is eradicated, selfish thoughts can no longer 
arise. As we progress, the volition involved in giving will assist us 
by improving the pliancy of the mind, an essential asset in 
developing concentration and wisdom, the prime requisites of 
liberation.

Sotapanna always give with pure volition because their minds function 
on the basis of wisdom. Those below this level sometimes give 
carelessly or disrespectfully. In the practice of giving, as in all 
bodily and verbal conduct, it is the volition accompanying the act 
that determines its moral quality. If one is offering something to a 
monk, doing so without adopting a respectful manner would not be 
proper. Throwing a coin to a beggar in order to get rid of him would 
also be considered a defilement of giving. One should think carefully 
about the relevance of a gift for it to bring the best results. A 
gift given through an intermediary detracts from the value. If one 
gives without realizing the law of kamma, the act of giving 
diminishes in meritorious potency. If one only plans on giving a 
donation but does not fulfill one's plan, the merit earned will be 
very slight. If, after having given a gift, we regret our action, 
much of the merit of the deed will be lost.

A moral person gives politely and respectfully. Whether the gift is 
spontaneous or planned, they will ensure that the timing and contents 
of the gift are appropriate for the receiver. 

One might contribute to a certain cause from fear that friends would 
disapprove if one did not give. Giving in response to such social 
pressures will have weak, though still beneficial, results. 
Charitable actions undertaken to gain a good reputation are selfish 
and not a valuable kind of giving (this is like paying a debt). It is 
not praiseworthy when one gives merely to return a favor or in 
expectation of a reward (this is like a bribe). We must be most 
careful of our own attitude while giving, as our attitude is the 
factor over which we have most control.

The Recipient of Gifts
======================
The purity of the recipient is the second factor that determines the 
kammic fruitfulness of a gift. The worthiest recipients of gifts are 
the ariyans, the noble ones (Sotapanna, etc.); for it is their purity 
of mind, attained by wisdom, that makes the act of giving capable of 
yielding abundant benefits. Gifts to a Bhikkhu who strives for the 
state of a noble one, or to a Buddhist meditator who lives by the 
Five Precepts, will also yield bountiful results.

When ariyans accept offerings, they do so to provide an opportunity 
for the donor to earn merit. Anagami and Arahants have eliminated 
desire for sense objects. Thus when they are given gifts their minds 
remain detached from the objects presented and their minds are filled 
with compassion for the giver.

Giving to one who is not spiritually advanced is also beneficial. If 
the donor's intention is good, then even though the receiver is 
immoral, the donor will earn merit and by his act of giving, he will 
strengthen his own disposition to renunciation. A gift mentally 
offered to the Sangha but physically presented to a monk who is 
morally corrupt will still bear great fruit.

The Objects to be Given
=======================
The third factor involved in giving is the gift itself, which can be 
either material or immaterial. Dhamma-dana, the gift of the noble 
teachings, excels all other gifts. Those who expound the Dhamma, 
monks who preach sermons and teachers of meditation practice the 
highest kind of generosity. Those who are not qualified to teach the 
Dhamma can give the gift of the Dhamma in other ways. We can donate 
Dhamma books or pay for publications. We can discuss the Dhamma 
informally and encourage others to keep precepts or to take up 
meditation. We might write an explanation of some aspect of the 
Dhamma for the benefit of others. Giving cash or labor to a 
meditation center or helping support a meditation teacher can also be 
considered the gift of the Dhamma, as the purpose of the center and 
the teacher is the transmission of the Buddha's teaching.
The most common type of gift is material things. A material object 
need not have a high monetary value for it to bring great results. If 
a poor man gives a monk the cup of rice that was to be his only food 
for the day, the man is making a great donation. If a prosperous 
merchant were to give the same small portion of rice, he would reap 
meager fruits. We should try to give things whose quality is at least 
as good as those we use ourselves. Many people in Burma buy the best 
fruits on the market as gifts for the monks although these fruits are 
much too expensive for them to consume themselves.

Gifts to the Sangha may consist of food, robes, medicine, or 
monasteries. Lay people who understand the rules of the Vinaya can 
earn vast merit by donating the proper things at the proper time to 
the order of monks and nuns.

Material gifts of a religious nature would include contributions 
towards the erection of a new temple or shrine or the purchase of a 
Buddha statue for a temple. The recipients of such gifts are the 
general public, whoever comes to the temple or worships before the 
Buddha image.

Mundane gifts to the citizens would include donations to welfare 
organizations. If one does not merely contribute funds for such 
projects but provides physical labor as well, the kammic results will 
be even greater. Gifts of this sort can be quite meritorious if 
preceded, accompanied and followed by pure mental volitions.

The Perfection of Giving
========================
The motive of renunciation prompts giving which disregards the 
qualities of the recipient and the mundane fruits of the merit 
acquired by giving. Renunciation is the thought of eliminating one's 
attachment to one's possessions, and thus aims at giving away the 
dearest and most difficult gifts. Bodhisattvas give in this manner in 
order to fulfill the dana parami, the "perfection of giving", the 
first of the ten perfections they must cultivate to the highest 
degree in order to attain Buddhahood. 

A Bodhisattva's work to complete the perfection of giving demands 
much more than other beings could emulate. Many Jataka tales relate 
how the Bodhisattva who was to become the Buddha Gotama gave things 
away with no thought of himself or of the mundane benefits that might 
follow. A Bodhisattva's purpose in practicing generosity is to 
fulfill the requirements for Buddhahood.

A Bodhisattva must give more difficult gifts than material goods to 
fulfill the highest form of the perfection of generosity. He must 
freely give the parts of his body, his children, his wife, and even 
his own life. As King Sivi, our Bodhisattva plucked out both his eyes 
with his bare hands and gave them to Sakka, the king of the gods. 
Sakka had come to Sivi in the guise of a blind old man, just to 
provide him with the opportunity to make this remarkable gift. Sivi 
did this with no hesitation prior to the act, nor with any reluctance 
during the act, nor with any hint of regret afterwards. He said that 
this gift was made "for the sake of Awakening itself. The two eyes 
were not disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I 
gave my eyes".

Another time the Bodhisattva took birth as a wise hare. That 
existence came to an end when he invited a famished Brahmin (again, 
Sakka in disguise) to eat him roasted and jumped into a fire. Because 
of the purity of the Bodhisattva's mind while making this highest 
gift of his entire body and life, the blazing fire did not hurt him. 
In relating the story he said that the fire had calmed him and 
brought him peace as if it had been cool water because he had 
accomplished the complete perfection of giving.

The Ultimate Goal of Giving
===========================
The practice of giving will aid us in our efforts to purify the mind. 
Generous gifts accompanied by wholesome volition help to eradicate 
suffering in three ways:
- When we decide to give something of our own to someone else, we 
simultaneously reduce our attachment to the object; to make a habit 
of giving can thus gradually weaken the mental factor of craving, one 
of the main causes of unhappiness. 
- Giving accompanied by wholesome volition will lead to happy future 
births in circumstances favorable to encountering and practicing the 
pure Buddha Dhamma.
- When giving is practiced with the intention that the mind becomes 
pliant enough for the attainment of Nibbana, the act of generosity 
will help us to develop virtue, concentration and wisdom (Sila, 
Samadhi, Panna). These make up the Noble Eightfold Path which leads 
to the extinction of suffering.

The motivation of working for liberation is far superior to that of 
aiming at mundane happiness in future births. This is because a gift 
made with the desire for pleasure is accompanied by the unwholesome 
root craving (tanha). The merits earned by such gifts are exhausted 
in transient pleasure. Gifts untainted by craving and attachment can 
only be made during a Buddha Sasana, the period when the teachings of 
a Buddha are available. So when we give now, during such a time, we 
should do so with the aim of putting an end to craving.

Function of Giving
==================
Giving is of prime importance in the Buddhist scheme of mental 
purification because it is the best weapon against greed (lobha), the 
first of the three unwholesome roots (akusala mèla). Greed is based 
on egoism and selfishness; we hold our personalities and our 
possessions as "I" and "mine". Giving is the antidote to cure the 
illness of egoism and greed.

Giving is like a battle. One has to fight the evil forces of greed 
before one can decide to give away something dear. A man lacking in 
spiritual strength finds it hard to practice giving. A small quail 
can die when it gets entangled in a creeper. Though weak, a creeper 
is a great bond for the small bird. But even an iron chain is not too 
big a bond for a strong elephant. Similarly, a man of weak character 
would find it difficult to part with his meager belongings, while a 
king with a strong character will even give up a kingdom once 
convinced of the dangers of greed.

Miserliness is not the only hindrance to giving. Carelessness and 
ignorance of the working of kamma also hinder giving. If one knows 
the advantages of giving, one will be vigilant to seize opportunities 
to practice this great virtue. The Buddha said that if people only 
knew the value of giving as he does, they would not take a single 
meal without sharing their food with others.

Qualities of the Donor
======================
The Suttas employ a number of terms to describe the qualities of a 
donor. He is a man with faith (saddha), he has faith in the nobility 
of a morally sound life, in the teachings of kamma and survival after 
death. He believes in the possibility of the moral and spiritual 
perfection of man. In short, he is not a materialist, and he has 
faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. The donor is also 
described as one who keeps an open house for the needy. He is 
interested in sharing his blessings with others. He is a 
philanthropist who understands the difficulties of the poor. He is 
open-handed and is ready to comply with another's request. He takes 
delight in distributing gifts to the needy and has a heart bent on 
giving. Such are the epithets used in the Suttas to describe the 
qualities of the liberal-minded. 

A noble giver is happy before, during and after giving. Before giving 
he is happy anticipating the opportunity to be generous. While 
giving, he is happy that he is making another happy. After giving he 
is satisfied that he has done a good deed. The Suttas list generosity 
as one of the qualities that go to make a gentleman. The Buddha 
compares the man who righteously earns his wealth and gives of it to 
the needy to a man who has both eyes, whereas the one who only earns 
wealth but does no merit is like a one-eyed man. The wealthy man who 
enjoys his riches by himself without sharing is said to be digging 
his own grave.

The Donation
============
Practically anything useful can be given as a gift. It is not 
necessary to have much to practice generosity; one can give according 
to one's means. Gifts given from meager resources are considered very 
valuable. If a person ekes out a bare existence, leads a righteous 
life and looks after his family, but makes it a point to give from 
his limited stores, his generosity is worth more than a thousand 
sacrifices. Alms given from wealth righteously earned is greatly 
praised by the Buddha.

Even if one gives a small amount with a heart full of faith one can 
gain happiness hereafter. The Dakkhainavibhanga Sutta states that an 
offering is purified on account of the giver when the giver is 
virtuous, on account of the recipient when the recipient is virtuous, 
on account of both the giver and the recipient if both are virtuous, 
by none if both happen to be impious.

The Anguttara Nikaya mentions five great gifts which have been held 
in high esteem by noble-minded men from ancient times. These great 
gifts are the meticulous observance of the Five Precepts. By doing so 
one gives fearlessness, love and benevolence to all beings. If 
someone can give security and freedom from fear to others by his 
behavior, that is the highest form of dana one can give.

The Recipient
=============
There is a recurrent phrase in the Suttas describing those who are 
particularly in need of public generosity. They are recluses, 
Brahmins, destitutes, wayfarers, wanderers and beggars. Recluses and 
Brahmins are religious persons who do not earn wages. They give 
spiritual guidance to the laity and the laity is expected to support 
them. The poor need the help of the rich to survive and the rich 
become spiritually richer by helping the poor. At a time when 
amenities for travelers were not adequately organized, the public had 
to step in to help the wayfarer. It is a person's moral obligation to 
give assistance to these types of people.

The Buddha describes three groups of people who should be tended with 
care and honor:
- Parents
- Wife, children, employees and dependents
- Religious persons who have either attained the goal of Arahantship 
or have embarked on a course of training for the elimination of 
negative mental traits

King Kosala asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given. The Buddha 
replied that alms should be given to those by giving to whom one 
becomes happy. Then the king asked to whom alms should be offered to 
obtain great fruit. The Buddha replied that alms offered to the 
virtuous bear great fruit. He clarified that offerings yield great 
fruit when made to virtuous recluses who have eliminated the five 
mental hindrances and cultivated moral habits, concentration, wisdom, 
emancipation and knowledge and vision of emancipation.

Just as seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful 
crops, alms given to the virtuous established on the Noble Eightfold 
Path yield great results. The Dhammapada maintains that fields have 
weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and desire are the 
blemishes of people and therefore what is given to those who have 
eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit. The results of 
generosity are measured more by the quality of the field of merit 
represented by the recipient than by the quantity and value of the 
gift given.

The Anguttara Nikaya records the fabulous alms-giving conducted by 
the Bodhisattva when he was born as a Brahmin named Velama. But this 
open-handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was 
concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is more 
meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream-enterer 
(Sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama. It 
is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream-
enterers. Next in order come non-returners, Arahants, Paccekabuddhas 
and Sammasambuddhas.

Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding 
the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a 
monastery for the general use of the Sangha. Taking refuge in the 
Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five 
Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation 
of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into 
impermanence, which leads to Nibbana.

The Motivation for Giving
=========================
The Suttas record various motives for exercising generosity: 
- One gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient, 
or with the idea of insulting him
- Fear also can motivate a person to make an offering
- One gives in return for a favor done to oneself in the past
- One also may give with the hope of getting a similar favor for 
oneself in the future
- One gives because giving is considered good
- "I cook, they do not cook. It is not proper for me who cooks not to 
give to those who do not cook." Some give urged by such altruistic 
motives
- Some give alms to gain a good reputation
- Still others give alms to adorn and beautify the mind

Favoritism, ill will and delusion are also listed as motives for 
giving. Sometimes alms are given for the sake of maintaining a long-
standing family tradition. Giving can be motivated by a desire to be 
reborn in heaven after death. Giving pleases some and they give with 
the idea of winning a happy frame of mind. But it is maintained in 
the Suttas that alms should be given without any expectations. Nor 
should alms be given with attachment to the recipient. If one gives 
with the idea of accumulating things for later use, that is an 
inferior act of giving. If one gives with the hope of enjoying the 
result thereof after death, that is also an inferior act of giving. 
The only valid motive for giving should be the motive of adorning the 
mind, to rid the mind of the ugliness of greed and selfishness.

The Manner of Giving
====================
The Suttas emphasize the manner of giving. The attitude of the donor 
in the act of giving is important for the goodwill between the donor 
and recipient irrespective of the value of the gift. 
- Alms should be given in such a way that the recipient does not feel 
humiliated, belittled or hurt. The needy ask for something with a 
sense of embarrassment and it is the duty of the donor not to make 
him feel more embarrassed. 
- Alms should be given with consideration and respect. The recipient 
should be made to feel welcome. One should not give in a callous 
manner that makes the recipient not feel like coming again. When a 
gift is given with warmth, a cohesive friendliness emerges between 
the donor and recipient. 
- The personal involvement in the act of giving is very beneficial. 
This promotes rapport between the donor and recipient and that is the 
social value of giving. Society is welded in unity with care and 
concern for one another when generosity is exercised with a sense of 
personal involvement.
- One should give only what is useful and appropriate. One should not 
give as alms what is only fit to be thrown away. 

The Value of Giving
===================
Giving promotes social cohesion and solidarity. It is the best means 
of bridging the psychological gap, much more than the material 
economic gap, that exists between haves and have-nots. Hate is 
eliminated when one is established in generosity.

Generosity without morality does not ensure a positive rebirth. 
Limited generosity and morality, without meditation, causes an 
unfortunate birth in the human world. Considerable generosity and 
morality, without mediation, causes a fortunate human birth. 
Considerable generosity and morality coupled with mediation causes 
rebirth in one of the heavens.

Giving with faith results in riches and beauty. If one gives with 
deference, one also gets children, wives, subordinates and servants 
who are obedient, dutiful and understanding. Giving alms at the 
proper time ensures timely fulfillment of needs. Giving alms with the 
genuine desire to help others results in the inclination to enjoy the 
best of sense pleasures. By giving alms without hurting oneself and 
others, one gains security from dangers such as fire, floods, 
thieves, kings and unloved heirs.

Giving to an animal brings a reward a hundredfold. Giving to a person 
of poor moral habit yields a reward a thousand-fold; giving to a 
virtuous person yields a reward a hundred thousand-fold. When a gift 
is given to a person who is without attachment to sense pleasures, 
the yield is a trillion-fold. When a gift is given to one on the path 
to stream-entry the yield is incalculable. There is immeasurable 
merit accrued when six conditions are met:
- The donor should be happy before, during and after the act
- The recipient should be free from lust, hatred and delusion (or 
have embarked on a course of training to this end)

The Buddha once explained that it is a meritorious act even to throw 
away the water after washing one's plate with the generous 
thought: "May the particles of food in the washing water be food to 
the creatures on the ground."

Giving alone is not sufficient for one to make an end of suffering. 
Anathapindika, who was pronounced by the Buddha as the foremost among 
almsgivers, became only a stream-enterer. Dana has to be fortified by 
Sila, morality, to produce good results.

Buddhism teaches a gradual process of emptying oneself. It starts 
with giving away one's external possessions. When the generous 
dispositional trait sets in and is fortified by the deepening insight 
into the real nature of things, one grows disenchanted with sense 
pleasures. At this stage one gives up household life and seeks 
ordination. Next comes the emptying of sensory inputs by guarding the 
sense doors. Through meditation (bhavana) one empties oneself of deep-
seated defilements and fills oneself with positive noble qualities. 
But this whole process of bailing out negativities starts with dana, 
the practice of giving. 

Giving from the Heart
=====================
The Sangha is described as "an unequalled field of merit-making for 
the world," meaning that the merit gained by giving to the Sangha is 
unequalled. Some may react to this notion with a degree of 
indignation. Such misgivings may be understandable, but can be 
countered by a proper explanation, and will not take root provided 
the Sangha is patently seen to be well conducted.

The Buddhist community consists of four groups: monks, nuns, male and 
female lay followers. The relation between the Sangha and the laity 
is one of symbiosis. The Sangha has a priceless gift to give. 
Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all 
other gifts". Members of the Sangha have an obligation to live 
according to the Vinaya and to strive continuously for enlightenment. 
Only by so doing can they claim to be "an unequalled field of merit-
making". If they fail in this obligation they are letting down 
themselves and the laity who support them. A monk or nun who cannot 
observe the rules should, and in certain cases must, leave the Order.

If we receive something pleasant, this is Vipaka, the result of 
previous meritorious conduct. It is nice while it lasts, but when it 
is finished, its virtue is exhausted. To give is kusala kamma which 
will produce pleasant Vipaka. Buddhism gives a technical meaning to 
the biblical statement, "it is more blessed to give than to receive". 
It is true that the "blessing" remains purely mundane and limited, 
but as all our actions are habit-forming, giving once inclines us to 
give again, so that the result is cumulative. Giving can lead on to 
other things, and dana is listed as the first among the ten paramis 
or "perfections," coming even before sila (morality). It is possible 
for an immoral person to be generous.

Generosity: The Inward Dimension
================================
If we only observe outward deeds we do not know if we are being 
sincerely generous. We should study our motivation for our deeds. 
True generosity is difficult. Motives for giving may not all be pure. 
We may give with selfish motives - expecting something in return, 
hoping to be liked by the receiver or wanting to be known as a 
generous person. There may be different thoughts at different 
moments, some generous, and others having different motives.

We experience different moments of consciousness (citta), which arise 
one at a time and fall away immediately. Each citta is accompanied by 
several mental factors (cetasikas). Unwholesome cittas are 
accompanied by unwholesome cetasikas (attachment, stinginess, 
aversion, etc.). Wholesome cittas are accompanied by beautiful 
cetasikas (generosity, kindness, compassion, etc.).

Unwholesome cetasikas have many degrees. We may know that there is 
attachment when we are greedy for food. We may not realize that there 
is also attachment when we enjoy scenery or beautiful music. We 
cannot force ourselves not to like beautiful things; there are 
conditions for the arising of attachment. We can learn to know the 
difference between the moments which are wholesome and the moments 
which are unwholesome. Selfishness persists, even in moments of 
subtle attachment. These are different from selfless moments of 
consciousness accompanied by generosity, when we do not think of our 
own enjoyment. Each wholesome citta is rooted in non-attachment 
(generosity) and non-aversion (kindness) and it may be rooted in 
understanding (wisdom) as well. Attachment cannot exist at the same 
time as generosity. When one is truly generous, one gives impartially 
and does not restrict one's generosity to people one likes. The 
Buddha taught that wisdom can eradicate the clinging to the idea of 
self, but if one does not learn to get rid of stinginess and clings 
to one's possessions, one cannot give up the clinging to self.

When we see that generosity is beneficial and that selfishness and 
stinginess are harmful, we would like to have more moments of 
generosity. However, in spite of our wishes, we notice that 
unwholesome types of consciousness often arise. Then we are 
disappointed with ourselves. We should understand what conditions the 
arising of unwholesome consciousness. We must have been full of 
attachment, aversion and ignorance in the past, even in past lives. 
Such tendencies have become deeply rooted; they have been 
accumulated. What is past has gone already, but the unwholesome 
tendencies that have been accumulated can condition the arising of 
unwholesome consciousness at the present time. We have accumulated 
not only tendencies to evil but also inclinations to the wholesome. 
That is why there can also be moments of generosity and kindness at 
the present time. When an unwholesome type of consciousness arises we 
accumulate more unwholesomeness; when a wholesome type arises we 
accumulate more wholesomeness.

The Buddha taught the ways to develop wholesomeness. Learning about 
these ways conditions more wholesomeness. We find opportunity for 
generosity, while we are giving, before the giving (when we buy the 
gift) and afterwards (when we recollect our giving). We may notice 
that before, during and after the giving, opportunities for 
generosity are spoilt by unwholesome consciousness. We may get tired 
when we are shopping for the gift and aversion arises. At first we 
may have been generous, but afterwards we may find that the gift was 
too expensive and regret having spent our money. The receiver may not 
respond to our gift in the way we expected and then we may be 
disappointed. When we have right understanding of what wholesomeness 
is, we should be concerned only with developing wholesome states of 
mind and not with the reactions of other people. Before learning the 
Dhamma, we did not consider generosity in this way and we did not pay 
attention to the moments of consciousness. When one has accumulated 
the tendency to stinginess it is difficult to be generous, but 
through the understanding of what the Buddha taught inclinations can 
be changed.

We may find it difficult to part with our possessions, but when we 
die we cannot take them with us. Life is short, so when we have an 
opportunity for generosity we should use it to combat selfishness. 
Each moment of generosity will condition the arising of generosity in 
the future.

Stinginess can bring about, either in this life or in a future life, 
the very result we fear: loss of possessions. Generosity can bring 
about prosperity. When we perform acts of generosity we should not 
cling to pleasant results; clinging is unwholesome. Kamma will 
produce its appropriate result whether we think of it or not. While 
we are giving we should have right understanding of kamma and its 
result, without clinging. We may do good deeds with the understanding 
of what wholesomeness is. When understanding accompanies the 
wholesome consciousness, it increases the degree of wholesomeness. We 
cannot make understanding arise at will; it arises when there are 
conditions for it. Learning what the Buddha taught is a condition for 
greater understanding.

The appreciation of other people's good deeds is also a type of 
generosity. When we notice that someone else is doing a good deed we 
can appreciate his wholesomeness, and we may express this with words 
of praise. Just as we should not be stingy with our possessions, we 
should not be stingy with words of praise.

Another type of generosity is the "sharing" of one's wholesome deeds 
with others. This does not mean that other people can receive the 
pleasant results of our good deeds. The Buddha taught that beings 
are "heirs" to their deeds. We each receive the results of the deeds 
we have done ourselves. Sharing wholesomeness with others means that 
our good deeds can be the condition for the arising of wholesome 
consciousness in others when they rejoice in our good deeds. We can 
share wholesomeness even with beings in other planes of existence, 
provided they are in planes where they can receive the benefits. It 
can become our custom to share wholesomeness with others; we need not 
even specify to whom we wish to dedicate it.

Good deeds are usually classified as threefold: generosity, morality 
and mental development. This classification should not be considered 
a rigid one. Morality, or abstinence from evil deeds, can also be 
seen as an aspect of generosity, as an act of kindness to others. 
Abstaining from evil deeds gives other beings the opportunity to live 
in peace, free from harm. To develop generosity, we should not 
neglect mental development, the development of wholesome states of 
mind.

The Sotapanna eradicates the wrong view of self and stinginess can 
never arise again. An ordinary person may be able to suppress 
stinginess temporarily, for example, at the time of giving, but 
stinginess is bound to arise again so long as its accumulated 
tendency remains. The stream-winner, through right understanding, has 
eradicated the tendency to stinginess.

The Perfection of Giving
========================
The perfection of giving is to be practiced by benefiting beings by 
relinquishing one's happiness, belongings, body, and life to others, 
by dispelling their fear, and by instructing them in the Dhamma. 
Giving is threefold by way of the object to be given: the giving of 
material things, the giving of fearlessness, and the giving of the 
Dhamma. The object to be given can be internal or external. When the 
Bodhisattva gives, he gives whatever is needed to whoever needs it. 
He gives it even unasked, much more when asked. He gives 
sufficiently, not insufficiently. He does not give because he expects 
something in return. When there is not enough to give sufficiently to 
all, he distributes evenly whatever can be shared. He does not give 
things that issue in affliction for others, such as weapons, poisons, 
and intoxicants. He does not give amusements, which are harmful and 
lead to negligence. He does not give unsuitable food or drink to a 
person who is sick, even though he might ask for it, and he does not 
give what is suitable beyond the proper measure.

When asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for 
householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to 
all without causing pain to anyone. Having promised an excellent 
gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because he 
desires gain, honor, or fame, or because he expects something in 
return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme 
enlightenment. He does not give detesting the gift or those who ask. 
He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to 
unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him. He gives with care, 
with a serene mind, full of compassion. He does not give through 
belief in superstitious omens: but he gives believing in kamma and 
its fruit. When he gives he does not those who ask do homage to him. 
He gives only with an undefiled mind. He does not give a gift with 
harsh words or a frown, but with words of endearment, congenial 
speech and a smile on his face.

Whenever greed for a particular object becomes excessive, the 
Bodhisattva recognizes his greed, quickly dispels his greed and gives 
away the object. He will not give his kingdom to those intent on the 
harm, suffering, and affliction of the world, but he would give it 
away to righteous men who protect the world with Dhamma. This is the 
way to practice the giving of external gifts.

The internal gift should be understood in two ways. 
- A Great Man surrenders himself to another and enters into 
servitude, placing himself at the disposal of others. 
- Whatever limbs or organs of his might be needed by others the Great 
Man gives them away to those who need them.

Thus the Great Man relinquishes an internal object in two ways: for 
the enjoyment of others or for his own self-mastery. In this matter 
he is completely generous, and thinks: "I will attain enlightenment 
through non-attachment." Herein, giving an internal gift, he gives 
only what leads to the welfare of the recipient, and nothing else. 
Thus the giving of the internal gift should be understood.

The giving of fearlessness is the giving of protection to beings when 
they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, 
water, enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts. 

The giving of the Dhamma is an un-perverted discourse on the Dhamma 
given with an undefiled mind; methodical instruction conducive to 
good in the present life, to good in the life to come, and to 
ultimate deliverance. By means of such discourses, those who have not 
entered the Buddha's Dispensation enter it, while those who have 
entered it reach maturity therein. This is the method: In brief, he 
gives a talk on giving, on virtue, and on heaven, on the un-
satisfactoriness and defilement in sense pleasures, and on the 
benefit in renouncing them. 

When he gives a material gift, the Great Man gives food 
thinking: "May I, by this gift, enable beings to achieve long life, 
beauty, happiness, strength, intelligence, and the supreme fruit of 
unsullied bliss." He gives drink wishing to allay the thirst of 
sensual defilements; garments to gain the adornments of shame and 
moral dread and the golden complexion of a Buddha; vehicles for 
attaining the modes of psychic potency and the bliss of Nibbana; 
scents for producing the sweet scent of virtue; garlands for 
producing the beauty of the Buddha-qualities; seats for producing the 
seat on the terrace of enlightenment; bedding for producing the bed 
of a Tathagata's rest; dwellings so he might become a refuge for 
beings; lamps to obtain the five eyes. He gives sounds for producing 
the Brahma-like voice of a Buddha; tastes for endearing himself to 
all the world; and tangibles for acquiring a Buddha's elegance. He 
gives medicines so he might later give the ageless and deathless 
state of Nibbana. He gives blameless amusements and enjoyments in 
order to produce delight in the true Dhamma. He gives gifts of gold, 
gems, etc., in order to achieve the major marks of physical beauty 
characteristic of a Buddha's body and gifts of the diverse means of 
beautification in order to achieve the minor features of physical 
beauty. He gives his treasuries as a gift in order to obtain the 
treasury of the true Dhamma; the gift of his kingdom in order to 
become the king of the Dhamma; the gift of monasteries, parks, ponds, 
and groves in order to achieve the Jhanas, etc.; the gift of his feet 
in order that he might be marked with the auspicious wheels; the gift 
of his hands in order that he might give to beings the rescuing hand 
of the true Dhamma to help them across the four floods; the gift of 
his ears, nose, etc., in order to obtain the spiritual faculties of 
faith, etc.; the gift of his eyes in order to obtain the universal 
eye; the gift of his flesh and blood with the thought: "May my body 
be the means of life for all the world! May it bring welfare and 
happiness to all beings at all times, even on occasions of merely 
seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!" And he gives 
the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the world.

Bountiful and liberal, he gives things together with a bonus. For 
when he gives food, thinking: "I will give this along with a bonus," 
he gives garments, etc., as well. And when he gives garments, 
thinking: "I will give this along with a bonus," he gives food, etc., 
as well. The same method with gifts of vehicles, etc. And when he 
gives a gift of one of the sense objects, such as visible forms, he 
gives the other sense objects also as a bonus.

The gift of sounds should be understood by way of the sounds of 
drums, etc. One gives a gift of sound by giving its base. Thus he 
makes a gift of sound by presenting a musical instrument, such as 
drums, to the Triple Gem; or by giving medicine for the voice to 
preachers of the Dhamma; or by announcing a lecture on the Dhamma, 
chanting the scriptures, giving a discourse on the Dhamma, holding a 
discussion, or expressing appreciation for the good deeds of others.

The gift of scents is made when, after getting a delightfully scented 
object, considering it in terms of its scent, thinking to make a gift 
of scent, he offers it to the Triple Gem. He relinquishes a scented 
object such as sandalwood, for the purpose of making an offering of 
scent.

The gift of tastes is made when, after getting a delightfully 
flavored object, such, considering it in terms of its taste, thinking 
to make a gift of taste, he gives it to worthy recipients. Or he 
relinquishes a flavorful object, such as grain, cows, etc.

Having gained some soft, delightful, blameless tangible object such 
as a bed, chair, cushion, pillow, undergarment, or upper garment, 
considering it in terms of its tangible qualities, thinking to make a 
gift of a tangible item, he gives it to worthy recipients; having 
gained the aforesaid tangible objects, he relinquishes them.

The gift of mental objects (Dhamma dana) should be understood by way 
of nutriment, drink, and life, since it is the mental-object base 
which is here intended. Having gained a delightful object such as 
nutriment, considering it as part of the mental-object base, thinking 
to make a gift of a non-sensory object, he gives nutriment -- i.e., 
ghee, butter, etc., or a drink; or, considering it a gift of life, he 
gives a ticket-meal or a fortnightly meal, etc., gets doctors to wait 
upon the sick and afflicted, liberates animals from a net, has a 
fishing net or bird-cage destroyed, releases prisoners from prison, 
causes an injunction to be given forbidding the slaughter of animals, 
or undertakes any action of a similar nature for the sake of 
protecting the life of beings.

This entire accomplishment in giving he dedicates to the welfare and 
happiness of the whole world, and to his own unshakable emancipation 
through supreme enlightenment. He dedicates it to the attainment of 
inexhaustible desire for the good, inexhaustible concentration, 
ingenuity, knowledge, and emancipation. In practicing the perfection 
of giving the Great Being should apply the perception of impermanence 
to life and possessions. He should consider them as shared in common 
with many, and should constantly and continuously arouse great 
compassion towards beings. Just as, when a house is blazing, the 
owner removes all his property of essential value and himself as well 
without leaving anything important behind, so does the Great Man 
invariably give, without discrimination and without concern.

When the Great Man has made a mental determination to completely 
relinquish whatever possessions come his way, there are four shackles 
to giving which he must overcome:
- When the Bodhisattva possesses objects that can be given and 
suppliants are present, but his mind does not leap up at the thought 
of giving and he does not want to give, he should conclude: "I have 
not been accustomed to giving in the past, therefore a desire to give 
does not arise now in my mind. So that my mind will delight in giving 
in the future, I will give a gift. Let me now relinquish what I have 
to those in need."
- When the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great 
Being reflects: "Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at 
present my requisites are defective. Therefore, though it pains me, 
let me give whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and 
inferior. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the 
perfection of giving."
- When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of 
the object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: "Good 
man, haven't you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, 
the loftiest and most superior of all states? Well then, for the sake 
of enlightenment, it is proper for you to give excellent and 
beautiful objects as gifts."
- When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the 
object being given, he reflects thus: "This is the nature of material 
possessions. They are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, 
it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my 
possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a 
gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the 
future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving."

Reflecting upon them thus in whatever way is appropriate is the means 
for dispelling the harmful shackles to the perfection of giving. The 
same method used for the perfection of giving also applies to the 
perfection of virtue and the other perfections.


Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33023

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 3:13pm
Subject: The Perfect Gift

 	
Hi All,

Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could 
know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, 
without any other possible motives.

Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient 
cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of 
gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic value 
to a gift of blood. 

Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than 
blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During 
the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of the 
donor.

The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of 
gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person 
receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even 
a case of life or death.

You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think 
that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us 
celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less 
fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33024

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: Vism.XIV 78

 	
"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XIV

78. Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is 'physical
basis, not door'; sensitive matter is 'both physical basis and door' the
rest are 'neither physical basis nor door'. So it is of four kinds
according to the physical basis tetrad.
	
33025

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 4:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation

 	
Hello Nina, and all

I will look for that book, Nina. As it happens, I was just 
reading the chapter on wholeseome deeds in Buddhism in Daily Life and 
a question arose. The chapter ends with this: "Helping other people 
with kind words and deeds alone is not enough. When it is the right 
moment we can help other in a deeper and more effective way, that is, 
helping them to understand who they are, why they are in this world 
and what the aim of their life in this world is. This way of helping 
is included in bhavana or mental development." In another thread, you 
spoke of the gift we can give others by encouraging them towards an 
understanding of kusala and akusala andI will be responding to that 
thread tonight, but right now I only have time to ask about the end 
of the above sentence. In what way is this way of helping included in 
bhavana? Is it through brahma-viharas? Recently I have been greatly 
impressed and really had my way of thinking about metta shifted by 
your writing on how we can help people to feel calm, perhaps, but 
only for that moment. I loved your description of your kindness to 
Lodjewik - I am sorry as always for not having learned to spell his 
name yet - when he came home from work irritable from a hard day- and 
the way your good humour conditioned happiness for him. And in your 
case, you could continue on from there and have a wholesome 
discussion based in right understanding over dinner. But for most 
people who do not have the accumulations for those kind of 
discussions. Real and lasting wellbeing can only come through their 
right understanding which is not something we can impart just by 
being kind. Well, I won't get into what I want to post about in my 
reply to the "global chaos" thread tonight, but in the meantime if 
you have a moment to expand a bit on the above sentence I'd be very 
grateful. 

How is helping others towards right understanding included in 
bhavana? Thanks! 

Metta,
Phil


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Philip,
> op 13-05-2004 15:58 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:>
> Seriously, I'm glad you
> > weren't hurt.
> N: It was fun. An adventure combined with Dhamma.
> I thought of another book. Since you like the Metta book, you may 
want to
> try another one: A. Sujin Wholesome Deeds, also on Zolag. This is 
Q. and
> Answer between A. Sujin and Kh Wandana about the ten kinds of 
kusala kamma.
> It shows how satipatthana can inspire all kinds of kusala.
> Nina.
	
33026

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 4:25pm
Subject: Theravada Buddhism Web Directory and Portal

 	
Hello All,

Members may be interested in this site with 913 links in its 
database:
Academic - 32
Education - 17
News and Events - 13
Organizations - 460
Pilgrimage - 16
Software - 9
Audio-Visual - 42
Introduction to Theravada Buddhism - 16
Non-English (Burmese, Chinese, Czech, Dutch, Estonian, French ...) - 
68
Pali - 30
Publications - 14
Traditions Mahasi Sayadaw, Sayagyi U Ba Khin, Thai Forest - 20
Discussions, Forums, Mailing Lists - 31
Meditation - 16
Non-Organizationals - 18
Personalities - 31
Readings - by email, Digital Libraries, Inter-Religion, Online 
Books, Tipitaka - 69
Web Directories - 11

Sadhu! - The Theravada Buddhism Web Directory and Portal
http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/modules/mylinks/

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33027

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri May 14, 2004 6:48pm
Subject: Vism.XIV 78 (corrected)

 	
"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV

78. Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is 'physical
basis, not door' (see DhsA. 82f.); the two intimations are 'door, not
physical basis'; sensitive matter is 'both physical basis and door'; the
rest are 'neither physical basis nor door'. So it is of four kinds
according to the physical basis tetrad.
	
33028

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 4:43am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

 	
Hi Ken H,

> >Ken: I think the answer is slowly dawning on me! I think you and 
> Sarah 
> > have been telling me that pariyatti (which, strictly speaking, knows 
> > only concepts) always has panna if only of the kind that knows 
> > kusala from akusala. We don't need to speculate on which exact 
> > citta panna arises in -- in between cittas that conceptualise the 
> > Dhamma there may be moments in which panna takes paramattha 
> dhamma 
> > as object. So, pariyatti and patipatti go hand in hand.
> 
> I am not sure, but sometime back I had the thought that if after 
> conceptually considering the Dhamma, there follows a sense of 
> detachment, it may be because there is weak level of insight into 
> anicca, dukkha or anatta. Do you think am I exaggerating? :-( 

Sukin:
I asked K. Sujin about this. But as often is the case, I had my own 
attachments to deal with, so I am not sure that her message came 
through to me as intended. She tried to show me my attachment and all 
the while I was struggling against it in the name of `wanting to get the 
facts right'. In the end my understanding is that if there is any `sati' of= 
a 
paramattha dhamma, then panna must *know* it, at least enough to 
know the difference between this and when there is not this kind of sati. 
I wondered, and Ivan seemed to have the same idea too, whether if the 
strength of sati was a matter of number of moments following or the 
intensity of the particular citta. My reason for asking was to find out if = 

perhaps one or a few cittas arose with paramattha dhamma as object, 
only because it was so fleeting that doubt and other realities followed to = 

hide the fact. She then pointed to whether doubt was known or it 
was `thinking about doubt'. Then she also showed us the difference 
between thinking about realities and thinking about thinking….!! :-/ 

Anyway, why struggle to get a definite answer. How is this going to 
help? If there is no sati to know the difference between dhamma and 
concept, then we have a long, long way to go. Besides, the path is 
about "development", not about getting results. And the goal every 
moment is to be detached. But `lobha' is all the time ready to lead us off = 

track, that even the idea of detachment can be taken by the self to 
involve `letting go'. So many potential traps and so fortunate we are to 
have good friends show them to us, isn't it? :-)

Metta,
Sukin
	
 	
 	
33029

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:10am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

 	
Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Thank you for providing the notes.
> 
> So given the notes you provided, does that mean that breaths are
not 
> bodily fabrications?
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

Well I don’t think the notes I provided shed much light on
kaya-sankhara. What they suggest is that the 3-fold meaning of
sankhara as kaaya-s, vacii-s and citta-s has no particular connection
to sankhara in its more usual meaning of the five aggregates/all
conditioned dhammas.

However, if you see a connection to my original statement (The
dhammas/five aggregates spoken of in the suttas do not include
'breath'), I'd be happy to hear it.

Regarding sankhara as the 3-fold classification of kaaya-sankhara/the
bodily formation (elaborated as being in-and-out breathing),
vacii-sankhara/the verbal formation (applied thought and sustained
thought) and citta-sankhara/the mental formation (perception and
feeling), I know only what appears in your quote from M. 44. I
believe the sutta goes on to mention how these 3 sankhara are
relevant to the attainment of cessation.

Jon


	


	


33030

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Nina

I enjoyed this post a lot, especially the passage from the Expositor.
Like Lodewijk, I wanted to read it again!

Thanks.
Jon

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: > Dear Philip, Icaro,
Azita and all,
...
We read in the Co to the Dhmsg, the Expositor (p. 100):

<A person thinking: 'I ought to do meritorious deeds,' has his mind
'determined' for moral acts, 'bent' only on moral acts by inhibiting
immoral acts, well 'trained' by constant practice of good. And has
'laid to heart' through such sufficing conditions as residence in a
suitable place, (assistance from or) dependence on good associates,
hearing the good Law (Dhamma), merit performed in former existences,
etc. ...

For this first class of consciousness is accompanied by joy, because
a desirable object having arisen, abundance of such factors as faith
are reasons for joy...Therefore abundance of faith, purity of views,
seeing advantage in merit, should be understood as factors for this
consciousness in making it accompanied by joy.

Eleven states also conduce to the production of zest ( or rapture) as
a factor of wisdom, namely, recollection of the Buddha, of the Law
(Dhamma), of the Order, of the precepts, of self-sacrifice, of
spirits (devas), of peace, avoidance of rough (i.e., ill-tempered )
persons, serving meek persons, reflection on a Suttanta which
instills faith and a tendency to all this. It is thus that
'accompanied by joy' should be understood.>

I read part of this to Lodewijk at luncheon, but he likes it so much
that I have to read it again at dinner. This is stimulating talk from
Buddhaghosa.


	
33031

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:31am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (again)

Icaro

--- icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon
...
-----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > Jon:
> > Yes, this is interesting. Thanks.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Don't fret, sir!
> Reading carefully the Anapasati Sutta gives you not only sound 
> doctrine but it is better than Valium or Prozac! HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Sounds like you're speaking from experience there ;-)).

Of course, there was no question of anyone falling asleep in the
circumstances of the Anapanasati Sutta. The monks to whom the sutta
was delivered contained 'many well-known elder disciples' including
Vens. Sariputta, Maha Moggallana, Maha Kassapa, Maha Kaccana, Maha
Kotthita, Maha Kappina, Maha Cunda, Revata, Ananda (and other
well-known elder disciples too!). The Buddha described the assembly
as the sort of assembly that 'it is rare to see in the world, the
sort of assembly that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking
along provisions, in order to see'.

Jon

	
33032

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 8:46am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Hi Jon,

So are breaths bodily fabrications or not?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > Thank you for providing the notes.
> > 
> > So given the notes you provided, does that mean that breaths are
> not 
> > bodily fabrications?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> 
> Well I don't think the notes I provided shed much light on
> kaya-sankhara. What they suggest is that the 3-fold meaning of
> sankhara as kaaya-s, vacii-s and citta-s has no particular 
connection
> to sankhara in its more usual meaning of the five aggregates/all
> conditioned dhammas.
> 
> However, if you see a connection to my original statement (The
> dhammas/five aggregates spoken of in the suttas do not include
> 'breath'), I'd be happy to hear it.
> 
> Regarding sankhara as the 3-fold classification of kaaya-
sankhara/the
> bodily formation (elaborated as being in-and-out breathing),
> vacii-sankhara/the verbal formation (applied thought and sustained
> thought) and citta-sankhara/the mental formation (perception and
> feeling), I know only what appears in your quote from M. 44. I
> believe the sutta goes on to mention how these 3 sankhara are
> relevant to the attainment of cessation.
> 
> Jon
	
33033

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation.

Dear Htoo,
I just add a few things little by little.
I like the rupas being branches at the tree!!
I try to put myself in the average reader's mind, the reader who is somewhat
impatient and critical of Abhidhamma, who thinks of it as a dry set of
concepts that cannot be verified in life. We want to make Abhidhamma come to
life for them, don't we? Sarah posted here a whole page which is rather
compact. I think afterwards you will explain about the hetus in life, I know
you do. I remember what you wrote about the cetasikas as good or bad
advisers of citta, the minister. But I would suggest that for the sake of
the average reader you illustrate and explain about hetus already after each
paragraph, or after a few sentences. The reader may not understand things
and stop reading soon. Some readers may not know about classifications, it
may all be new to them. They may stumble on all the terms that are used.
Also, it may be better to post a quarter of a page at a time, because with
the explanations it would be enough for one post at a time. The reader gets
confused very soon when there are terms he does not understand. The
Abhidhamma is very precious, very beneficial. We should give it spoonful by
spoonful, very gently. What do you think about this?
I try to add a little, but I think even this may be already too much for the
reader. 

> --- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
> Htoo - PATTHANA  DHAMMA
> Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and
> amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with
> abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus.
N: For some people it is useful to explain again what is abyaakata: these
are neither kusala nor akusala. In the Patthana all dhammas are classified
in a triple classification: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and abyaakata
dhamma. In the case of abyaakata hetus: they arise with vipaakacitta and
with the kiriyacitta of the arahat.
As to abyaakata roots, these are always sobhana. The arahat has instead of
kusala cittas kiriyacittas accompanied by beautiful roots. Some vipakacittas
are ahetuka (as you state below) and some are sahetuka. The rupa-jhana and
arupa-jhana vipakacittas are always accompanied by three roots, by alobha,
adosa and amoha or panna. As to sahetuka vipakacitta of the sense-sphere,
rebirth-consciousness may be accompanied by non-attachment and non-aversion,
or by non-attachment, non-aversion and panna, depending on the kamma which
produced it. Thus, this shows that people are born with different
capacities. All bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum) and the dying-consciousness
are of the same type of citta. If a person is born with panna and he
cultivates panna during his life he may be able to attain jhana or
enlightenment. 
Hetus or roots influence our whole life. When we think, speak, write, read,
walk, whatever we do, hetus arise with the citta. They arise at this moment
and they are more often akusala hetus, unwholesome roots than kusala hetus,
wholesome roots. 
Nina.
	
33034

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg]to Sukin, action, non-action.

Dear Sukin,
op 14-05-2004 11:39 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...:

> Yes I used to think that because we concentrate more on getting the
> facts right, little attention is given to other forms of kusala, so that at
> any given moment, that NAGs would appear less `religious' than other
> Buddhists. 
N: Lodewijk cautions me time and again and he is afraid that certain phrases
may create misunderstandings. We discussed together for example the present
moment, thinking of a story, the word story, etc. Also non-action. He thinks
this term rather unfortunate.
Of course I know what you mean. At the Dhamma sessions we hear what we had
not heard before on satipatthana and anatta. The development of satipatthana
is very subtle, we have to listen, consider and absorb it. We have to hear
about paramattha dhammas so that we cling less to self. We learn more about
our many vices and faults. A. Sujin helps us to see how deeply rooted
clinging to self is. When we are listening and discussing it may seem to
newcomers that there is little attention to all the other kinds of kusala in
daily life, but in fact, satipatthana inspires to so many, many ways of
kusala. Kusala with less self-involvement. To avoid akusala, to perform
kusala and to purify the mind, this saying of the Dhammapada is often
quoted. But through satipatthana there can be purification of the mind, and
this is necessary to avoid akusala and to perform kusala.
Satipatthana does not lead to non-action, no, on the contrary. A. Sujin
visits the sick, just like the Buddha, pays attention to people's needs,
thinks of making them happy, also in many small ways, she often goes to
cremations to confort bereaved people. I just recommended her <Wholesome
Deeds> to Philip. It is on Zolag.
I heard from her: feeling tired is just clinging to self. My last day in Bgk
she encouraged me, saying, when doing more kusala the body gets stronger.
Lodewijk said, why does Sukin speak of non-action, he is a very
compassionate and active person. People who do not know you may get the
wrong picture of you. I know that you help others with great generosity. We
have to learn to apply the Dhamma in our social life and many of my friends
give good examples.
I hope you can make it to India so that we can discuss these things. Can we
not ban the word NAG? Let us give each other stimulating talk for all sorts
of kusala!!! Of course understanding is always needed so that we learn not
to take it for self.
Nina.
	
33035

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 3:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation

Hello Nina and all

This morning I realized that the next chapter in Buddhism in 
Daily Life is "mental development" and that I could have found the 
answer to the question I posted here. One should always take a look 
at the table of contents when setting out on a book I guess! 

I found this: "Studying the Buddha's teachings and explaining them 
to others is kusala kamma included in bhavana..(snip)..Teaching 
dhamma to other people is kusala kamma of a high degree. In this way 
one not only helps others to have more understanding about their life 
one develops one's own understanding as well. Teaching Dhamma is the 
most effective way of helping other people to develop kusala and to 
eradicate kusala."

So I think this is what you were referring to when you wrote that 
helping others is included in bhavana. I will be writing more about 
this in the other thread when I have time but for now I wanted to 
spare you from the need to answer the question below. Thanks again 
for everything. I am feeling very rooted in my dhamma study these 
days. The last lines of Chapter 6: "We take our refuge in the Buddha 
when we have confidence in his teachings and we consider it the most 
important thing in life to practice what he taught." This is 
certainly true in my case these days so I suppose I may have taken 
refuge in some way without having formally done so.

Metta
Phil

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> 
> Hello Nina, and all
> 
> I will look for that book, Nina. As it happens, I was just 
> reading the chapter on wholeseome deeds in Buddhism in Daily Life 
and 
> a question arose. The chapter ends with this: "Helping other 
people 
> with kind words and deeds alone is not enough. When it is the right 
> moment we can help other in a deeper and more effective way, that 
is, 
> helping them to understand who they are, why they are in this world 
> and what the aim of their life in this world is. This way of 
helping 
> is included in bhavana or mental development." In another thread, 
you 
> spoke of the gift we can give others by encouraging them towards an 
> understanding of kusala and akusala andI will be responding to that 
> thread tonight, but right now I only have time to ask about the end 
> of the above sentence. In what way is this way of helping included 
in 
> bhavana?
	
33036

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 4:38pm
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta

Hello Suravira

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" <cbclifford@e...> 
wrote:
> Hello Andrew,
> 
> Sorry about the delay in my response, but I have been very busy 
> assisting my clients - feduciary responsibilities take precidence.

I understand. I see from your other posts that you are very busy 
with projects and I wish you success with them.


[snip] > [Suravira] I suspect that the intellectual rebellion is 
fired by 
> fear - that the intellectual rebellion is merely a symptom of an 
> underlying fear - an emotion. While it is sometimes convenient to 
> consider intellect, and emotions as uncoupled, it is my view that 
> the two are tightly integrated and interdependent.
> 
> When our sense of self is recognized, or even glimpsed, as being 
> false (in any aspect), the typical response is (fear, or more 
> accurately) FEAR.

[Andrew] I see what you are saying and tend to agree. However, in 
Abhidhamma terms, 'fear' may equate, at least in part, to the 
cetasika 'uddhacca' or 'restlessness' which "has the characteristic 
of disquietude, like water whipped up by the wind" (CMA p 83). As 
far as I can see, there is no actual mental factor translated 
as 'fear'. I think the restlessness/agitation would be primarily 
conditioned by moha (delusion).
I think you make a very valid point about interdependence, too. When 
intellectually studying Dhamma, we are very much 'unscrambling an 
omelette' and should always remember that. We are dissecting an 
integrated process as an aid to directly experiencing it.

> [Suravira] .. analytical contemplation is an important process. 
> However, that process is subordinate to direct realization of 
anatta 
> through the practice of bhavana.

[Andrew] I agree but would avoid using a word like 'subordinate' as 
it has connotations of the forceful arranging of a conditioned 
process. I look at the definition of 'pariyatti' in Nyanatiloka's 
Buddhist Dictionary including " ... (1) learning the wording of the 
doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it (patipatti), (3) penetrating 
it (pativedha) and realising its goal ..."
I think some people (not you) skip (1) - perhaps believing it is 
subordinate to practice and penetration - but, in so doing, miss the 
goal completely.

[snip]> [Suravira] Hmmm. Consider that the experience of a perception 
of 
> being in time/space is not a concept - it is an intimate matter of 
> life and death. The 5 khandhas is merely a model, an abstract 
> representation, of the experience.

[Andrew] Any description using language will just be an abstract 
representation of a process, will not be penetration. But are you 
saying that there is something *more than* the 5 khandhas in the 
present moment? Didn't the Buddha describe them as "the all"?

[snip]> [Suravira] Well, on the upside, such great doubt can prove to 
be a 
> strong motivating factor for engaging in the practice of bhavana.

[Andrew] Seeing doubt for what it is can be conducive to the arising 
of wisdom. But doubt itself is proximately caused by unwise 
attention. You mention "practice" as a noun. Don't you think that, 
in English, it carries heavy connotations of *someone* practising? 
I'd be interested to hear how you explain to seekers this idea of 
action but no actor ie anatta.

With Best Wishes
Andrew
	
33037

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 4:52pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo, Hetu Paccaya Initiation.

Dear Nina,

Thanks for your suggestion. It is the best idea that you give. I once 
experienced the events as you said. 

Once I explain dhamma to people when conditions are suitable like new 
year day, vesak day, abhidhamma day, and so on.

Sometimes we had got face to face discussion. As you said when there 
are a lot of new terminology, the listeners became tired of words and 
said, 'Thanks Htoo. These are good but we have to be familiar with 
these big words.'

Once, I experienced a man went rebound. That is when he was told that 
was good thing and that was bad thing. At first he was delighted and 
complied with dhamma. But at a time when he was released from dhamma, 
he himself think he was freed and liberated and then he did all he 
wanted. That is rebound.

It is time management and time allotment. So now I just put all as 
packed as possible and put them on the net and just link them. When 
there arise questions then I will take that apportunity.

I understand that abhidhamma is precious and it should reflect our 
daily life. Yes, we all should try it to reflect daily life.

Asevana paccaya is one of my favourite paccaya. When I first read 
English version of dhamma for the reason to communicate dhamma 
friends of different nationalities and different cultures, I found 
difficult. Because I faced many new words even though I knew most of 
them in Myanmar or in Pali.

But as in asevana paccaya, that if one thing is repeatedly done, the 
first done and the second done and the third done will not be the 
same even though all are the same but successively much much more 
proficient, precious, valuable and so on. If a statue is sprayed with 
fragnance, later and later spray cause much much more sweeter smell. 
In learning, repeated studying also add to easy understandability.

If the letters A to Z are not known, it will be almost impossible to 
teach advanced grammar. I know that. But I will try if time permits.

Thanks for your kind wish. And If there anything I made wrong, please 
let me be aware of it. All I did will not be perfect. Because most 
were released after single check. And my pages 'Patthana Dhamma' are 
not teaching. They are just discussion as I intend. Cetasikas and 
ministers were just my idea. But this may probably arose from my past 
reading possibly which I forgot. I wrote in that style and once 
someone told me that it is written in 'Atthasalini'. This time 
branches and leaves are my idea. But roots are in Tipitaka.

Thanks again keeping in contact.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:

Dear Htoo,

I just add a few things little by little.
I like the rupas being branches at the tree!!
I try to put myself in the average reader's mind, the reader who is 
somewhat impatient and critical of Abhidhamma, who thinks of it as a 
dry set of concepts that cannot be verified in life. We want to make 
Abhidhamma come to life for them, don't we? Sarah posted here a whole 
page which is rather compact. I think afterwards you will explain 
about the hetus in life, I know you do. I remember what you wrote 
about the cetasikas as good or bad advisers of citta, the minister. 
But I would suggest that for the sake of the average reader you 
illustrate and explain about hetus already after each paragraph, or 
after a few sentences. The reader may not understand things and stop 
reading soon. Some readers may not know about classifications, it may 
all be new to them. They may stumble on all the terms that are used. 
Also, it may be better to post a quarter of a page at a time, because 
with the explanations it would be enough for one post at a time. The 
reader gets confused very soon when there are terms he does not 
understand. The Abhidhamma is very precious, very beneficial. We 
should give it spoonful by spoonful, very gently. What do you think 
about this? I try to add a little, but I think even this may be 
already too much for the reader.
	
33038

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 5:21pm
Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 01 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

This is to expand or to explain the message on the page 30 from the 
site that I put in. It is 
http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html 

From 1st page to 29th page are all about paramattha dhamma to some 
detail but in a compact form. Page 30 is Hetu Paccaya just initiated.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PATTHANA  DHAMMA
                          30
Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccayas. They 
are one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There 
are 6 roots or 6 hetus. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo: 

Hetu here needs to be explained for average readers. Hetu originally 
means a cause, reason , condition and paccaya also means support, 
reason, cause , ground. But later hetu is refered to mula or root 
condition. There are 6 mulas or 6 roots or 6 hetus.Mula = root = hetu

Because as in the case of a tree, root support the whole tree by 
giving nutrition, supplying minerals and water from the ground and 
root totally support the whole tree and if roots are eradicated that 
is they are derooted then the whole tree has to die. In dhamma that 
behave like root are 6 dhamma. They are called 6 hetus. 6 mulas. 6 
roots. The condition related to this support system is called root 
condition or 'hetu paccaya'. This support system is working among 
paramattha dhamma that is citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------------------------------------------------------

All these 6 roots or 6 mulas or 6 hetus are cetasika dhamma. These 
cetasikas are 1.lobha,2.dosa, 3.moha, 4.alobha, 5.adosa, and 6.amoha.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo: They have appeared in 'Cetasika As Designers Or Helpers (01 ) 
to ( 06 ) earlier in this list.

To short, lobha is a cetasika that have strong attractive power and 
it is craving. It is like thirsty. As long as thirsty, drinking will 
not be stopped if water or fluid is available. This means lobha will 
never be in satiety. Dosa is a cetasika which has hurting in nature. 
Anger, fury, hatred, aversion, repent, jealousy, stingy, envy, are 
all have hurting in nature. But not all dosa have repent or jealousy 
or stinginess, each of which has another quality other than dosa. 

Moha is like a blind looking for a colour. He will never see a 
colour. Moha will never see wisdom and wisdom-related dhamma because 
he is blind. Blind are in the dark. Moha is dark. Moha is ignorance. 
Moha is delusion. moha is illusion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	
33039

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 5:45pm
Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 )

PATTHANA  DHAMM
30
Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are 
one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 
roots or 6 hetus. All these 6 roots or hetus are cetasika dhamma. 
They are lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo:

Alobha is a cetasika. It is non-attachment. When we have a good 
chance to offer that is when we have enough for ourselves and there 
are oversufficient properties and when there happen to offer when the 
receivers are already at hand then we all do offering. Even when we 
do not have enough for ourselve we still do offering whenever we have 
a good chance to offer. At that time, there is no attachment to the 
properties-to-be-released at least if our offering are pure. We will 
feel happy as we are doing kusala or wholesome thing. That releasing 
or that detachment that is non-attachment is alobha cetasika. It can 
be also called dana or offering. But non-attachment will be much more 
appropriate.

Adosa is a cetasika. It is non-hurting nature. When we want people 
healthy we have adosa cetasika. This can be seen in case of parents 
who have children and who do not have any disease. But parent still 
have non-hurting mind adosa on their children as 'may they be 
healthy'. Adosa can also be called metta. But adosa will be much more 
appropriate for any case.

Amoha is one of 6 hetus or 6 mulas or 6 roots. It is pannindriya 
cetasika. Panna is wisdom. Indriya is faculty. Pannindriya is the 
faculty of wisdom. As there is panna or wisdom, it can throw light 
into any matter to be seen clearly. It is opposite of moha. So it is 
called amoha. It can also be called panna.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and
amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with
abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo:

Abyakata are dhamma that are not akusala nor kusala dhamma. So vipaka 
are all abyakata dhamma. Kiriya are all abyakata dhamma.

Vipaka are resultant dhamma. If we offered much in our past lives, we 
own a good kamma and that kamma can give rise us richness. When we 
are rich, that richness is vipaka. In terms of citta, if we did good 
in our past lives for example if we refrained from killing in our 
past lives, we will be disease-less and live long in this life and 
future if kamma give their effect. When effects come, all those 
effects are called vipaka. What we see now, what we hear now and 
smell, taste, touch now are all vipaka.

Kiriya are dhamma that are just performance without any kamma 
potentials. All the actions of arahats are kiriya. When arahats are 
conscious that is awake all they do, all they speak, all they think 
are all just performing and their actions do not give rise to future 
kamma in this life or any future life. So all are kiriya. when they 
are in bhvanga cittas that is while they are sleeping and while they 
are not actively doing, speraking, thinking they will be in bhavanga 
cittas and these bhavanga cittas are vipaka cittas. Vipaka cittas 
arise in both arahats and non-arahats. But kiriya cittas arise only 
in arahats. Both vipaka and kiriya cittas are abyakata dhamma. That 
is they do not have future kamma potentials.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	
33040

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 7:30pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]to Sukin, action, non-action.

Dear Nina and All,

> Can we not ban the word NAG? Let us give each other stimulating 
talk for all sorts
> of kusala!!! Of course understanding is always needed so that we 
learn not
> to take it for self.

I don't know about banning, but I will not use the term, and I am 
sure others who read this post will also do the same. :-) 

Actually, when Ken O first proposed it, I had some reservations and 
he too probably would have discontinued using it, were it not for my 
own and others' repeated use of the term. In fact when Victor posted 
regarding `right effort' with reference to NAGs, at that time I 
wanted to propose a change of this to perhaps NFPG (non formal 
practice group). But this is another label, and generally I have a 
bit of reservation with regards to labels. Of course most of us use 
NAG just for convenience, but as you say, it can create 
misunderstanding in others. And I would even go on to suggest that 
because the development of sati and panna is still so very weak, 
that unreflecting use of any term at all, may have a negative 
influence even on myself. Lobha is so pervasive; any identification 
with a group or method of study or practice will easily become its 
object. And the result may be that we become very one-sided. 

I do believe quite firmly that only panna can condition what is 
right, and that without it, any idea of developing kusala will be 
taken by `self' as something `to do'. I also believe that if the 
practice is correct, then all kinds of kusala will also be 
developed, and if one insists so much on Rt. View and anatta but at 
the same time other kusala is not being developed, then I must 
question if indeed the practice is right. What we all can never have 
enough of, is reminders about all kinds of kusala, particularly the 
reference to the parami. So Nina, thanks for all your good reminders 
and do continue with them, I also very much appreciate remarks 
Lodewijk makes, and please convey my thanks to him. :-)

With regard to India, I do wish I could go. However the timing is 
not good for me. But conditions rule, so who knows what it will 
favour. :-)

Metta,
Sukin.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Sukin,
> op 14-05-2004 11:39 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op 
sukinder@k...:
> 
> > Yes I used to think that because we concentrate more on getting 
the
> > facts right, little attention is given to other forms of kusala, 
so that at
> > any given moment, that NAGs would appear less `religious' than 
other
> > Buddhists. 
> N: Lodewijk cautions me time and again and he is afraid that 
certain phrases
> may create misunderstandings. We discussed together for example 
the present
> moment, thinking of a story, the word story, etc. Also non-action. 
He thinks
> this term rather unfortunate.
> Of course I know what you mean. At the Dhamma sessions we hear 
what we had
> not heard before on satipatthana and anatta. The development of 
satipatthana
> is very subtle, we have to listen, consider and absorb it. We have 
to hear
> about paramattha dhammas so that we cling less to self. We learn 
more about
> our many vices and faults. A. Sujin helps us to see how deeply 
rooted
> clinging to self is. When we are listening and discussing it may 
seem to
> newcomers that there is little attention to all the other kinds of 
kusala in
> daily life, but in fact, satipatthana inspires to so many, many 
ways of
> kusala. Kusala with less self-involvement. To avoid akusala, to 
perform
> kusala and to purify the mind, this saying of the Dhammapada is 
often
> quoted. But through satipatthana there can be purification of the 
mind, and
> this is necessary to avoid akusala and to perform kusala.
> Satipatthana does not lead to non-action, no, on the contrary. A. 
Sujin
> visits the sick, just like the Buddha, pays attention to people's 
needs,
> thinks of making them happy, also in many small ways, she often 
goes to
> cremations to confort bereaved people. I just recommended her 
<Wholesome
> Deeds> to Philip. It is on Zolag.
> I heard from her: feeling tired is just clinging to self. My last 
day in Bgk
> she encouraged me, saying, when doing more kusala the body gets 
stronger.
> Lodewijk said, why does Sukin speak of non-action, he is a very
> compassionate and active person. People who do not know you may 
get the
> wrong picture of you. I know that you help others with great 
generosity. We
> have to learn to apply the Dhamma in our social life and many of 
my friends
> give good examples.
> I hope you can make it to India so that we can discuss these 
things. Can we
> not ban the word NAG? Let us give each other stimulating talk for 
all sorts
> of kusala!!! Of course understanding is always needed so that we 
learn not
> to take it for self.
> Nina.
	
33041

From: Gabriel Nunes Laera <zopatenzin@h...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]Bus, questions and a nice Sunday!

Icaro,

Thank you very much for your recommendations in studying Suttas related to 
the Buddhist Economics.And I invite anyone who is interested in such subject 
to help me developing a more profound study on this pratical potential of 
Dhamma.

The bus number is 382, you can get it every forty-five minutes on 
copacabana's beach from 8 am to 22 pm. This used to be the bus I used to 
catch.

I have a simple question about buddhist culture (if I can call it so!): How 
is seen marriage and relationship between a lay man and a lay woman from the 
buddhist perspective and culture.I would like you to understand thsi doubt 
since I live in a country where I have any contact with buddhist immigrants 
family, and after studying buddhism and its philosophy I do feel much more 
comfortable to think of sharing a lay-buddhist life with someone who at 
least understand and respect what I believe and practice.

Have a nice Sunday you all!

Metta,

Gabriel Laera

ICQ:56458224
MSN Messenger: zopatenzin@h...

"Evitar todo o mal,cultivar o bem,purificar a própria mente: esse é o 
Ensinamento dos Buddhas." Dhp 183.





----Original Message Follows----
From: "icarofranca" <icarofranca@y...>
Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from Brazil
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:36:06 -0000

Caro Gabriel!!!

(I will try to keep a bilingual communication to benefit all members
of this group)

> I hope I can learn a lot from you in this group, and I invite any
interested
> in helping me with the "Buddhist Economics"!

Gabriel, eu li com interesse o web site que você indicou e gostei
muito. Ainda está incompleto mas o fato de ter como membro um monge
do Butão é uma garantia de boa e legítima linhagem Kagyu, muito mais
do que atualmente no Tibete!

Gabriel, I've read with interest the Web site you recommend and I
liked it very much. It's still incomplete but just the fact to keep a
Bhutan's Monk is a good, sound and legitimate Kagyu tradition
guarantee, better that one can find nowadays at Tibet!

"Economia Budista"... se você pensar em economia como um nivel de
commodities com flutuações para mais ou para menos, você começara a
perceber que o Caminho do Meio Budista encontra também tais
aplicações. Na escola theravada existem suttas que tratam de tais
problemas ( como um rei deve gerenciar seu reino, como a guerra deve
ser conduzida para nào prejudicar a economia - cf. o Mahavamsa, que
mesmo não sendo exatamente do Cânon clássico, tem passagens
interessantes sobre estes assuntos! - e muito mais).

"Buddhist Economics"... if you begin to think out Economics as a
certain comoddities' level with deviations and fluctuations for more
and for less, you will perceive that the Noble Middle Path has also
such applications. At Theravada Canon you will find many suttas about
these questions ( How a King ought to manage his kingdom, how war
must be conducted without harm economics - Cf. The Mahavamsa: despite
the fact it is not at classical canon, it has interesting quotes
about these issues! - and more)

<.......>
	
33042

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 10:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> So are breaths bodily fabrications or not?
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

As I have already acknowledged, in the context of the 3-fold sankhara
(bodily, verbal and mental), in-and-out breathing is the bodily
sankhara.

And as I've also mentioned, I don't see any contradiction between
this and my original statement that 'breath' is not one of the
dhammas that constitute the five aggregates.

Jon


	
33043

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:23pm
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta

Dear Suravira

The very last question to you in my previous post - about anatta - 
sounds a bit daft given that we were originally discussing your 
alternative definition of "false views of individuality". This time, 
however, I am trying to leave the succinct definitions behind and ask 
you about how you see the process of "experience" operating without a 
self. It seems to me that Abhidhamma is a systematic dissection of 
that process and how it works. True, there needs to be reflection on 
this and ultimately, direct experience of it.
But anyway, how do *you* explain the working of the process to people 
who are new to anatta?
Thought I best explain myself. (Crawls back under rock).

Best wishes again
Andrew
	
33044

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:39pm
Subject: Kilesa (defilements)

Dear Group,

Lately a few things have made me realise how different individuals 
can have completely different reactions to the same phenomena. 
Recently, a person had a strong reaction to a post elsewhere, and I 
couldn't see a connection between what was being discussed and what 
the person was aggressively saying in response.

This set me thinking again about the Kilesa (Defilements) and how 
they really rule our lives.

"The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all 
mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any one 
time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so they 
are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, 
speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person is 
almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are there 
and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring 
our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic 
perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and 
endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under 
the baneful influence of kilesas." 
http://www.fsnewsletter.net/36/wisdom.htm

The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do 
it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those 
questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on 
knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe 
or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I 
think?) 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33045

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 15, 2004 11:53pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Hi Jon,

So breath, in-&-out breathing, is bodily fabrication.

Is in-&-out breathing, a bodily fabrication, inconstant, dukkha, not 
self?

Metta,
Victor



--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > So are breaths bodily fabrications or not?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> 
> As I have already acknowledged, in the context of the 3-fold 
sankhara
> (bodily, verbal and mental), in-and-out breathing is the bodily
> sankhara.
> 
> And as I've also mentioned, I don't see any contradiction between
> this and my original statement that 'breath' is not one of the
> dhammas that constitute the five aggregates.
> 
> Jon
	
33046

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 0:19am
Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Christine and all,

The way to eradicate defilements is the Noble Eightfold Path. Just 
knowing the unwholesome/unskillful that take place is not enough.

"What to do (to eradicate defilements, to abandon the unskillful)?" 
and "How to eradicate defilements, abandon the unskillful?" are 
valid and relevant questions.

Metta,
Victor



--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> Lately a few things have made me realise how different individuals 
> can have completely different reactions to the same phenomena. 
> Recently, a person had a strong reaction to a post elsewhere, and 
I 
> couldn't see a connection between what was being discussed and 
what 
> the person was aggressively saying in response.
> 
> This set me thinking again about the Kilesa (Defilements) and how 
> they really rule our lives.
> 
> "The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all 
> mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any 
one 
> time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so 
they 
> are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, 
> speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person 
is 
> almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are 
there 
> and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, 
colouring 
> our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic 
> perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and 
> endless other things are all distorted, because they all come 
under 
> the baneful influence of kilesas." 
> http://www.fsnewsletter.net/36/wisdom.htm
> 
> The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do 
> it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those 
> questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on 
> knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe 
> or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I 
> think?) 
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33047

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 0:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Christine,

S: Just quickly passing by on return from a trip to the beach* on a very
hot and sunny day here:

--- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote: 
> The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do 
> it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those 
> questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on 
> knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe 
> or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I 
> think?) 
.....
S: I just checked Jon’s recipe quotes in escribe and found this 'gem'
(imho of course) which maybe what you have in mind:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18655.html

Jon: >My sense of the teachings is that the path to the goal of
enlightenment lies in the development of insight into presently arising
realities (dhammas). It is by the arising of this
insight(wisdom/understanding) that the kilesas such as ego, fear, desire
and so on that you mention are weakened and, upon attaining enlightenment,
finally eradicated. 

So we could think of the weakening of the kilesas as in a sense a
by-product of the development of insight, as something the pace and order
of which is not of our choosing.

I mention this because I have noticed that many people seem to hold the
view that 'practice' has to do with effort directed towards the reduction
of kilesas, and that progress in the development of insight is to be
measured by the extent to which the kilesas are absent. 
Now, the eradication of the kilesas is of course something mentioned
frequently in the suttas, including as 1 of the benefits/advantages of the
development of insight. In terms of the actual path, however, the
emphasis to my reading is on knowing all dhammas as they truly are. There
is no recipe or technique given for reducing (in the sense of eradicating)
the kilesas as such.

I suspect that many people would also regard the aspiration to have more
kusala and less akusala as itself kusala, but this is not necessarily so; 
it could just as easily be our old friends conceit(mana) and wrong view
(ditthi) popping up again.<
*****
S: I know he and others will be happy to pick the thread up again if there
are any further comments.

Metta,

Sarah
* a bit of good luck/kusala vipaka (??) - After swimming and changing on
the beach, we went off by bus to the nearest village for lunch. I realised
I'd lost an ear-ring. After lunch, poor Jon was dragged back to the by-now
very crowded beach to have a quick look for it. Unbelievably, we found
it;-). Maybe a few brief moments of kusala vipaka through the eye-door
(but who knows?), but far, far more moments of thinking with lots of
pleasant feeling about the concepts and stories of the lost and found
ear-ring. 
======


	
33048

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 1:38am
Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hello Victor, and all,

It seems there a few categories of kilesa, and differing ways to 
abandon them - according to the Sabbasava Sutta MN 2 "All the 
Fermentations"

"When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing have 
been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned 
by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his fermentations 
that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, his 
fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been 
abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be abandoned 
by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations that 
should be abandoned by destroying have been abandoned by destroying, 
his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been 
abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells 
restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has 
severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right 
penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html

Do you have any sutta links for Defilements?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Christine and all,
> 
> The way to eradicate defilements is the Noble Eightfold Path. 
Just 
> knowing the unwholesome/unskillful that take place is not enough.
> 
> "What to do (to eradicate defilements, to abandon the 
unskillful)?" 
> and "How to eradicate defilements, abandon the unskillful?" are 
> valid and relevant questions.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
	
33049

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 1:40am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kilesa (defilements)

Hello Sarah, and all,

How lovely that you found the ear-ring. :-) It is NOT hot and sunny 
here - I'm glad you are having days on the beach. Here, the human 
has a head cold, and the dog has the heater. (He has arthritis). 
Does the kusala from the good deed outweigh occasionally regretting 
of it? :-) :-) 

Yes, that's the post by Jon that I was thinking of. Good one, 
hey! 

In the quote to Victor, there is the line - "He has severed 
craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right 
penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress." 
Conceit seems to play a large role in everything - even in my 
hesitating to ask just how, in case you or RobK has explained it in 
detail before, and I've not retained the memory. :-) Is it that we 
are only irritated, fearful etc. if we, firstly, have a sense that 
there is a self, and that the self we feel we have is important?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Christine,
> 
> S: Just quickly passing by on return from a trip to the beach* on 
a very
> hot and sunny day here:
> 
> --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote: 
> > The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do 
> > it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that 
those 
> > questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is 
on 
> > knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no 
recipe 
> > or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I 
> > think?) 
> .....
> S: I just checked Jon's recipe quotes in escribe and found 
this 'gem'
> (imho of course) which maybe what you have in mind:
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18655.html
> 
> Jon: >My sense of the teachings is that the path to the goal of
> enlightenment lies in the development of insight into presently 
arising
> realities (dhammas). It is by the arising of this
> insight(wisdom/understanding) that the kilesas such as ego, fear, 
desire
> and so on that you mention are weakened and, upon attaining 
enlightenment,
> finally eradicated. 
> 
> So we could think of the weakening of the kilesas as in a sense a
> by-product of the development of insight, as something the pace 
and order
> of which is not of our choosing.
> 
> I mention this because I have noticed that many people seem to 
hold the
> view that 'practice' has to do with effort directed towards the 
reduction
> of kilesas, and that progress in the development of insight is to 
be
> measured by the extent to which the kilesas are absent. 
> Now, the eradication of the kilesas is of course something 
mentioned
> frequently in the suttas, including as 1 of the 
benefits/advantages of the
> development of insight. In terms of the actual path, however, the
> emphasis to my reading is on knowing all dhammas as they truly 
are. There
> is no recipe or technique given for reducing (in the sense of 
eradicating)
> the kilesas as such.
> 
> I suspect that many people would also regard the aspiration to 
have more
> kusala and less akusala as itself kusala, but this is not 
necessarily so; 
> it could just as easily be our old friends conceit(mana) and wrong 
view
> (ditthi) popping up again.<
> *****
> S: I know he and others will be happy to pick the thread up again 
if there
> are any further comments.
> 
> Metta,
	
33050

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 1:45am
Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Christine and All,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Lately a few things have made me realise how different individuals 
> can have completely different reactions to the same phenomena. 
> Recently, a person had a strong reaction to a post elsewhere, and I 
> couldn't see a connection between what was being discussed and what 
> the person was aggressively saying in response.
> 
> This set me thinking again about the Kilesa (Defilements) and how 
> they really rule our lives.
> 
> "The kilesas are there in the heart, and Dhamma is there also, all 
> mixed up; it depends on circumstances which one dominates at any 
one 
> time. These kilesas are there in the heart all the time, and so 
they 
> are continually flowing out and displaying themselves in action, 
> speech and thought. In fact, we could say that the average person 
is 
> almost entirely the kilesas. It is not that sometimes they are 
there 
> and sometimes they are not - they are there all the time, colouring 
> our outlook, causing our understanding to be deluded. Our basic 
> perceptions of the world, other people, ourselves, religion and 
> endless other things are all distorted, because they all come under 
> the baneful influence of kilesas." 
> http://www.fsnewsletter.net/36/wisdom.htm
> 
> The first consideration is always 'what to do?' and 'how to do 
> it?' - but, I was taught a long time ago on this List, that those 
> questions are "wrongly put", that the emphasis in the suttas is on 
> knowing all dhammas as they truly are, and that there is no recipe 
> or technique for eradicating the kilesas. (I'm quoting Jon, I 
> think?) 

If you are focusing on kilesas, you are seeing only half the story. 
The Abhidhamma explains that the "law of nature" that allows kilesas 
to influcence our current mental state is called "Natural Decisive 
Support Condition" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works 
as a condition when one of the following factors is present:
- Strong past concepts
- Strong past citta / cetasika
- Strong past rupa

"Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but 
also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika 
or rupa can be "strong" when:
- It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit)
- It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences 
your reaction to something else in the next moment) 
- It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong 
past impression or a solemn vow)

"Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the 
conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of 
conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 
cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other 
words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every 
mental state. 

The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. 
Christine, you focused on kilesas, but the same law of nature applies 
to wholesome states as well. If we do metta meditation each morning, 
our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel 
drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in 
a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life 
as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we 
have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife 
of the Buddha in many previous existences). If we have a "talent" in 
music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives.

There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where 
the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations 
from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's 
accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants 
and others do not have this ability).

At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn 
vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced 
the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were 
chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the 
Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this 
was the role that they wanted to play.

An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive 
support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma:
- We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This 
searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a 
wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done 
with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should 
review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits 
of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good 
accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good 
deeds in the future.
- When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with 
mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is 
constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of 
mental proliferation (papa¾ca); the multiplication of unwholesome 
states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of 
mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the 
unwholesome state.
- We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To 
increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is 
clear and not troubled by restlessness.

The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the 
future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape 
from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as 
they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three 
characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). 

We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". 
Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an 
understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does 
not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. 
Natural decisive support is also a law of nature.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33051

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 2:13am
Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hello RobM :-), and all,

Thank you for this post - 
I'm trying to read about Upanissaya-Paccaya (Decisive Support-
Condition)on p. 60 of Nina's "Conditions - An outline of the twenty-
four paccaya".
I think I recall Sarah discussing this with K. Sujin early this year 
or late last year - but unfortunately I didn't get the tapes. Maybe 
Sarah can remember the gist of the discussion? I'll read your post 
a few times and think it, and Nina's chapter, over - the mental 
processes are a little slow tonight because of the head cold (who am 
I kidding? :-)) and I may come back to you tomorrow, if that's 
O.K. ...

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Christine and All,
> 
> If you are focusing on kilesas, you are seeing only half the 
story. 
> The Abhidhamma explains that the "law of nature" that allows 
kilesas 
> to influcence our current mental state is called "Natural Decisive 
> Support Condition" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support 
works 
> as a condition when one of the following factors is present:
> - Strong past concepts
> - Strong past citta / cetasika
> - Strong past rupa
> 
> "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but 
> also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / 
cetasika 
> or rupa can be "strong" when:
> - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit)
> - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment 
influences 
> your reaction to something else in the next moment) 
> - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong 
> past impression or a solemn vow)
> 
> "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the 
> conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of 
> conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 
89 
> cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other 
> words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of 
every 
> mental state. 
> 
> The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. 
> Christine, you focused on kilesas, but the same law of nature 
applies 
> to wholesome states as well. If we do metta meditation each 
morning, 
> our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we 
feel 
> drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma 
in 
> a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this 
life 
> as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because 
we 
> have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the 
wife 
> of the Buddha in many previous existences). If we have a "talent" 
in 
> music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives.
> 
> There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries 
where 
> the character or circumstances of a person is linked to 
accumulations 
> from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's 
> accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants 
> and others do not have this ability).
> 
> At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a 
solemn 
> vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow 
influenced 
> the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana 
were 
> chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the 
> Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that 
this 
> was the role that they wanted to play.
> 
> An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive 
> support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma:
> - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. 
This 
> searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a 
> wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done 
> with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should 
> review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the 
merits 
> of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and 
good 
> accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good 
> deeds in the future.
> - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it 
with 
> mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is 
> constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of 
> mental proliferation (papa¾ca); the multiplication of unwholesome 
> states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of 
> mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the 
> unwholesome state.
> - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To 
> increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind 
is 
> clear and not troubled by restlessness.
> 
> The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the 
> future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape 
> from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things 
as 
> they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three 
> characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). 
> 
> We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". 
> Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an 
> understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does 
> not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of 
nature. 
> Natural decisive support is also a law of nature.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33052

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 2:18am
Subject: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

Here's where it's necessary to understand the distinction between the
different meanings of 'sankhara'.

A. Sankhara as all conditioned dhammas.
In the context of the statement 'All sankhara are anicca, all
sankhara are dukkha, all dhammas anatta', sankhara means all
conditioned dhammas. This is meaning No. 4 in Nyanatiloka's
'Buddhist Dictionary' list of meanings -- see below, particularly
where it says:
"This meaning applies to the well-known passage, "All formations are
impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhára aniccá ...
dukkhá)."

B. Sankhara as the bodily-, verbal- and mental-formation.
This is meaning No. 2 in the list below. Here the context is
'nirodha-samaapatti', the cessation of perception and feeling.

As I'm sure you know, nirodha-samaapatti is (Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist
Dictionary' again):
"The temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity.
The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to
be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions, as well as the previous
attainment of Anágámi or Arahatship."

The context of nirodha-samaapatti can be seen from the passage in M.
44 that follows the one in your quote. The speaker (who is the
arahant bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa) is asked by Visaakha in what order
the 3 formations cease when attaining nirodha-samaapatti and she
answers (using the MLDB translation):
17. "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of
perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the
bodily formation, then the mental formation."

This I take to mean that the function of speech ceases first, then
bodily actions (typified by breathing) cease, and finally all mental
functions (exemplified by perception and feeling) cease.

As I think is clear from the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist
Dictionary', we cannot just take one of the meanings of sankhara and
substitute that in another of the meanings, without understanding
exactly what the application is in each case.

To my reading, references in the teachings to conditioned dhammas/the
five aggregates do not include a specific dhamma of 'breath'. What
we take for breath is in fact a number of different conditioned
dhammas. It is only these dhammas to which the characteristics of
anicca/dukkha/anatta are applicable.

Jon

***********
Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'
'Sankhaara':
1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, sankhára
has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome
or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech
(vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.).
2. The aforementioned three terms, káya-, vací- and citta-s. are
sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily
function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal
function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3)
mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44).
3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhárakkhandha),
and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to
'karmically forming' consciousness or not.
4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata) and
conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all
phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known
passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering"
(sabbe sankhára aniccá ... dukkhá).
***********

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> So breath, in-&-out breathing, is bodily fabrication.
> 
> Is in-&-out breathing, a bodily fabrication, inconstant, dukkha,
> not self?
> 
> Metta,
> Victor


	
33053

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi RobM, Chris & All,

Rob, your wise comments reminded me of some useful feedback I received
from a good friend (off-list) and I hope you may be able to add more. The
friend feels that too much is written here by some of us on “no-control”
and that perhaps we don’t really ‘live’ in the Dhamma. Actually, the
friend’s position reminds me of some of our former discussions about
‘willing’ wholesome states to arise and a live conversation with both of
you in Hong Kong and on list. 

Even though the willing is anatta, it can still appear to arise and ‘will’
sati, panna and so on to arise. The friend gave the example of Ananda who
had no more self-view but ‘willed’ sati to arise just before the first
council and became an arahant as a result.To suggest there cannot be such
willing may even sound like it’s a hopeless cause.

Of course, we know as you (Rob) reminded us, that past and present causes
are very intricate. Ananda joined the Sangha in the second year of the
Buddha’s teachings and spent a considerable amount of time listening to
the teachings as well as assisting the Buddha. Of course we also read
about the conditions being developed over numerous lifetimes before this
in the Jatakas and elsewhere. In the commentary to the Theraagathaa, we
read about the zeal and insight that were developed prior to his becoming
an arahant the night before the Great Council and the sense of urgency and
reminders given to him by the deva (SN9:5 Aananda) and by Maha Kassapa in
the Parinibbana Sutta.
.....
--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote: 
> We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". 
> Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an 
> understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does 
> not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. 
> Natural decisive support is also a law of nature.
...
S: This is a good conclusion. Understanding a little more about conditions
helps a lot. The momentary arising now of sati and other wholesome states
will also condition more of the same in the future, so there is nothing
fatalistic about the teaching of anatta. As Kom wrote, ‘without that [the
importance of the dhamma now] conditioning the arising of dhamma in the
future...then no development of panna/kusala dhamma is possible.’ It
should help us to see the urgency and power of present moments of sati,
whilst at the same time appreciating that it’s not in anyone’s control.
....
‘The Discourse on the Not-Self characteristic’ (~Naa,namoli transl)

‘Bhikkhus, material form is not self. If material form were self, this
material form would not lead to affliction, and it could be had of
material
form: Let my material form be thus; let my material form be not thus. And
it
is because material form is not self that it leads to affliction, and that
it
cannot be had of material form: Let my material form be thus: let my
material
form be not thus...
‘Feeling is not self...
‘Perception is not self...
‘Formations are not self...
Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness
would not lead to affliction and it could be had of consciousness: let my
consciousness be thus; let my consciousness be not thus. And it is because
consciousness is not self that it therefore leads to affliction, and that
it
cannot be had of consciousness: Let my consciousnes be thus; let my
consciousness be not thus...........’ (Vin, Mv. Kh; cf S.X11,59)<end
quote>
*****
S: In other words, dhammas lead to affliction because they are anatta and
cannot be willed to be a certain way. If they could be, then Ananda and
anyone else would not need to develop satipatthana over countless
lifetimes and listen to the teachings again and again. All the wholesome
states along with sati and panna, such as right effort, right thinking,
right concentration and so on cannot arise just from the wishing or
willing, but only by the development of the right conditions. As we know,
these conditions are the hearing, considering, applying and the
accumulations from past and present.

Rob & Chris, I know you’ve both considered what has often been written
here about ‘no-control’ a lot and I’d be glad if you could add any of your
reflections or links to assist other friends further. 

Indeed, it takes courage, patience, good cheer and wisdom to appreciate
the following quote that Nina gave without there being any idea of a self
that is ‘determined’ or ‘bent’ and this may be just what my other friend
was trying to indicate:

We read in the Co to the Dhmsg, the Expositor (p. 100):

<A person thinking: 'I ought to do meritorious deeds,' has his mind
'determined' for moral acts, 'bent' only on moral acts by inhibiting
immoral acts, well 'trained' by constant practice of good. And has
'laid to heart' through such sufficing conditions as residence in a
suitable place, (assistance from or) dependence on good associates,
hearing the good Law (Dhamma), merit performed in former existences,
etc. ...

<...>
******
In the Introductory chapter of the same text (p.31) we read about how the
bhikkhu who is ‘ill-trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea’, especially
with regards the references to persons and other conventional truths,
taking these for realities. It also stresses how the bhikkhu who is
‘oll-trained in the Abhidhamma makes his mind run to excess in
metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he
gets mental distraction. It concludes by saying that the bhikkhu ‘ill
tained in the three Pitakas in due course arrives at failure of different
sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement.’ These
reminders follow the section about the three kinds of study: the study
concerning the way of (badly)catching a snake, the study for salvation and
the study of a treasurer. 

I’ve mentioned it before, but I’d like to stress that I really learn a lot
from considering the varied comments and responding to those who have
different understandings here. Repeatedly questioning our study and
carefully reflecting leads to sati and insight naturally as I see it.

I look forward to any further comments.

Metta,

Sarah
p.s Christine, this was a report of the discussion I had on
pakatuupanissaya paccaya that you may be referring to. It was concerning
the references to concepts under this condition (rather technical).
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22304.html
====


	
33054

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi KenH, Sukin (& Rob Ep),

I came across this old classic from our friend, Mike, whilst looking for
another post for Chris. I know you’ll both appreciate its contribution to
your discussions;-).
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2458

Mike:> I think that it's relatively easy to embrace anatta on a conceptual
level, because, with a little understanding, it's easy to see how much
unhappiness springs from the illusion of self (among other reasons). So we
can reject atta out of plain old dosa...

The idea of 'freedom'--meaning 'freedom of choice'--is
MUCH harder to relinquish--especially (ironically)
among those of us for whom 'liberation' is the central
issue. I think this line of thinking usually goes
something like this: "If 'I' can't choose patipada
over pariyatti, or pariyatti over panyatti, If 'I'
can't choose vipassana- over samatha-bhavana, If 'I'
can't choose to investigate dhammas rather than to
ignore them, to hear buddhadhamma rather than not to
hear it, If 'I' can't choose to think, speak and act*
in a wholesome way, then 'I' can never cultivate the
eightfold path and attain liberation.

So, 'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so
long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive
the credit)...!

Whether pariyatti or patipada or panyatti arises,
whether samatha or vipassana bhavana is cultivated,
whether dhammas are investigated or not, or
buddhadhamma listened to or ignored, even whether
kusala or akusala kamma is committed, NO ONE IS THERE
in the arising, or the cultivation, or the
investigation, listening, ignoring, thinking, speaking
or acting. If there is no chooser, how can there be,
or have been, a choice? Just wisdom or ignorance, in
any possible situation, tipping the scale one way or
the other depending on how much of each has
accumulated.

I think that's why right effort is defined by its
outcomes, rather than its intent. It leads to:

the going down of unskilled states already arisen;
the non-arising unskilled states as yet unarisen;
the arising of skilled states as yet unarisen; and
the continuation, development and perfection of
skilled states already arisen.

(sorry I can't cite the source of this translation)

No one choosing or intending in any of these--just
cause, and effect.

So it really doesn't make much sense to argue about
whether we'll meditate or not, or study abhidhamma or
not, or contemplate our breath rather than aggregates
or bases or elements. 'We' will do what conditions,
internal and external, allow us to do, and not
otherwise--ever. If sufficient wisdom has accumulated
for us to think, say and do intelligent things, and
not to think, say or do stupid things, that's just
wisdom at work--not 'us'.<
*****

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33055

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation

Dear Philip,
It gives me much pleasure to correspond with you.
op 15-05-2004 01:21 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
"Helping other people
> with kind words and deeds alone is not enough. When it is the right
> moment we can help other in a deeper and more effective way, that is,
> helping them to understand who they are, why they are in this world
> and what the aim of their life in this world is. This way of helping
> is included in bhavana or mental development."
N: Studying the Dhamma and explaining it is included in mental development.
When you explain, it takes two people: the explainer and the listener. The
person who explains Dhamma has to consider carefully himself or herself, it
deepens the understanding to explain. You see, the benefit is on both sides.
You both grow in the Dhamma. Isn't this a wonderful thing of the Dhamma? I
feel this benefit so much while having Dhamma discussions with Lodewijk.
Today I was reading just a little from an old talk of mine (only typed,
never on computer) Buddhism and Social Life. While I read I also benefit
myself, it is about metta. How the understanding of anatta is not a
hindrance for thinking with metta about people; no, on the contrary, it
helps. 
Ph: In another thread, you
> spoke of the gift we can give others by encouraging them towards an
> understanding of kusala and akusala
N: It is again about the same: about Dhamma. Two sides benefit. We can also
notice this while writing posts for dsg. Sarah often mentions this.
Ph: (snip) Recently I have been greatly
> impressed and really had my way of thinking about metta shifted by
> your writing on how we can help people to feel calm, perhaps, but
> only for that moment. I loved your description of your kindness to
> Lodjewik - I am sorry as always for not having learned to spell his
> name yet - when he came home from work irritable from a hard day- and
> the way your good humour conditioned happiness for him.
N: It comes naturally, nothing special. It just illustrates that different
moments alternate: metta and lobha, or Dhamma talk and lobha. Lobha and
laughing is not forbidden. We let it all come naturally.
Ph: And in your 
> case, you could continue on from there and have a wholesome
> discussion based in right understanding over dinner.
N: More on vacation,when we have more time, but at home just a little bit. I
joke to him: you will die soon, we better have a Dhamma discussion. But
Dhamma also makes the body stronger as A. Sujin said.
Ph: But for most 
> people who do not have the accumulations for those kind of
> discussions. Real and lasting wellbeing can only come through their
> right understanding which is not something we can impart just by
> being kind. 
N: Let it come by conditions.

Nina.
	
33056

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:53am
Subject: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor, and Rob Ep

Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered in
part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue has
been raised by him in recent posts.

Victor:
Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination."

Jon:
Context is everything. In the sutta, these words come at the end of
the description of the occasion on which the discourse was given. It
is helpful to look at the occasion to get a proper understanding of
the teaching being given. I have set out below the relevant part of
the 'occasion' description, which is often overlooked (people like to
jump straight in at the passage you have quoted). The text is taken
from ATI; I have added paragraph numbers so that I can cross refer
more easily.

The first point to note is that the assembly of monks to which the
sutta is given is an extremely illustrious one. This is indicated by
the roll-call of 'well-known elder disciples' [1], the glowing
description of the assembly by the Buddha [7] and the description of
different levels of attainment of those present, who included:
[8] Arahants, 
[9] non-returners
[10] once-returners
[11] stream-enterers
[12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames
of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble
eightfold path'
[13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will...
compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the]
foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. 
[14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'.


Note the reference at [12] to monks who 'remain devoted to' the
development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for
Awakening... the noble eightfold path'. This I take to mean monks
who are well advanced in the development of insight (vipassana
bhavana).

Now regarding the monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of
in-&-out breathing' [14], these are the monks to whom the passage we
are now considering is addressed in particular. I see 2 things of
significance.

The first is that these monks are already skilled in the development
of samatha with breath as object; the second is that they are not yet
to be counted among those who are 'devoted to the development of the
four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the
noble eightfold path' at [12], i.e., as being firmly established in
the development of insight.

Now let's look again at your passage, in the light of this
background. It reads [15]:
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, ... 
[J: as being developed by those just described at [14]]
when developed & pursued, ... 
[J: i.e., developed and pursued in the particular way to be described
later in this sutta]
brings the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for
Awakening ...clear knowing & release to their culmination." 
[J: i.e., as for the persons described at [12], who are well
established in insight]

So I see this passage as extolling the development of insight, in
tandem with the further development of samatha with breath as object,
for those who have already developed samatha with breath as object.

I do not see in this particular passage the message that people
wishing to development insight are advised to do so by also
developing samatha with breath as object.

A final point of interest is that the assembly includes monks who are
skilled in samatha with other objects such as the 4 brahma-viharas,
foulness of the body, and the perception of impermanence [13]. 
However, no special instruction is given here (or elsewhere, that I'm
aware of) for the concurrent development of insight for these
disciples. I suspect this reflects the fact that enlightenment based
on jhana with breath as object is of particular difficulty, and is a
course that is suitable for Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas and the great
disciples, i.e., for the very greatest of beings.

Jon

Anapanasati Sutta (M. 118)
*******************************
[1] I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying
at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother,
together with many well-known elder disciples -- with Ven. Sariputta,
Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha
Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven.
Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. ...

[6] Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the
full-moon night of the White water-lily month, the fourth month of
the rains -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by
the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he
addressed them: 

[7] "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle
chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community
of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that is worthy
of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of
respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this
community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly to
which a small gift, when given, becomes great, and a great gift
greater: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The
sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world: such is this
community of monks, such is this assembly -- the sort of assembly
that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along
provisions, in order to see. 

[8] "In this community of monks there are monks who are Arahants,
whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done
the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally
destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right
gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks. 

[9] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total
ending of the first set of five fetters, are due to be reborn [in the
Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from
that world: such are the monks in this community of monks. 

[10] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the
total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation
of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who -- on
returning only one more time to this world -- will make an ending to
stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. 

[11] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the
total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners,
steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for
self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. 

[12] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted
to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right
exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the
five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble
eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. 

[13] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted
to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation...
equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the
perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of
monks. 

[14] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted
to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. 

[15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued,
is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out
breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of
references to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when
developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their
culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed &
pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: 
> Hi Jon,
> 
> Commentaries, ancient or modern, on anapanasati may be helpful to 
> one who develops anapanasati(being mindful with breath).
> 
> Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
> great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, 
> when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination."
> 
> Developing & pursuing anapanasati is a "doing" and a skillful one. 
> 
> And by "doing" I mean kamma/action. It is the "doing" that leads
to 
> the cessation of "doing."
> 
> There is nothing wrong spending certain amount of time a day 
> dedicating to developing and pursuing anapanasati.
> 
> Why does one want to sit down folding his legs crosswise, holding 
> his body erect? 
> 
> Speaking from my own understanding, because it is a stable posture 
> that keeps the body still, conducive for calming the bodily and 
> mental fabrications and arousing energy.
> 
> While in the suttas (references would be helpful) there may be many
> instances of people, including lay-followers, becoming enlightened 
> while listening to the Buddha's discourses, it does not mean that 
> these people did not spending time on developing & pursuing 
> anapasati.
> 
> As I see it, anapanasati is being mindful of and with in-&-out 
> breathing.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor


	
33057

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 4:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi, Jon (and Victor) -

In a message dated 5/16/04 5:59:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jonoabb@y... writes:

> To my reading, references in the teachings to conditioned dhammas/the
> five aggregates do not include a specific dhamma of 'breath'. What
> we take for breath is in fact a number of different conditioned
> dhammas. It is only these dhammas to which the characteristics of
> anicca/dukkha/anatta are applicable.
> 
=======================
I agree with you Jon. That is certainly the primary meaning and 
application throughout. For example there is the following:

---------------------------

Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.82



Loka Sutta



The World

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 
Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed 
down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed 
One: "'The world, the world (loka),'[1] it is said. In what respect does the word 
'world' apply? "Insofar as it disintegrates (lujjati), monk, it is called the 
'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. 
Consciousness at the eye consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the eye 
disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye 
-- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too 
disintegrates. "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... "The nose 
disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... 
"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... "The intellect 
disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness 
disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is 
that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as 
pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "Insofar as it 
disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'" 
*********************************

And there is also the following:
________________________

Anguttara Nikaya X.60



Girimananda Sutta



To Girimananda

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by Piyadassi Thera. 

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, 
in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. And on that occasion Ven. 
Girimananda was diseased, in pain, severely ill. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed 
One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was 
sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, Ven. Girimananda is diseased, in 
pain, severely ill. It would be good if the Blessed One would visit Ven. 
Girimananda, out of sympathy for him." "Ananda, if you go to the monk Girimananda 
and tell him ten perceptions, it's possible that when he hears the ten 
perceptions his disease may be allayed. Which ten? The perception of inconstancy, the 
perception of not-self, the perception of unattractiveness, the perception of 
drawbacks, the perception of abandoning, the perception of dispassion, the 
perception of cessation, the perception of distaste for every world, the 
perception of the undesirability of all fabrications, mindfulness of in-&-out 
breathing. [1] "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a 
monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty 
building -- reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, 
perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' 
Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. 
This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy. [2] "And what is the 
perception of not-self? There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the 
wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'The 
eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; 
the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are 
not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect 
is not-self, ideas are not-self.' Thus he remains focused on not-selfness 
with regard to the six inner & outer sense media. This is called the perception 
of not-self. 

<snip of remainder of sutta>
**********************************
However, one can also truthfully say, but derivatively, conv
entionally, and abbreviationally, that breath, too, is anicca, dukkha, and anatta. It is 
just that one should be very careful and very clear in one's mind as to 
exactly what is meant when that is said. The sense in which anicca and anatta, 
especially, apply to conventional objects is their applying to the actual 
phenomena that underlie them. As the underlying phenomena arise and cease, the 
conventional object appears to change.
Dukkha, however, applies not only derivatively to conventional 
objects, but also directly, because dukkha depends on mind. There is the following:
__________________________
> ... association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is 
> dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha
----------------------------------------------
I do believe that the "things" that are unloved etc are conventional 
objects, including persons. Grief can arise, for example, at least as strongly 
with regard to the loss of a fictitious entity believed to be real as with 
regard to an actual phenomenon.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 



	
33058

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 8:19am
Subject: Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your notes.

So is breath/in-&-out breathing inconstant, dukkha, not self?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> Here's where it's necessary to understand the distinction between 
the
> different meanings of 'sankhara'.
> 
> A. Sankhara as all conditioned dhammas.
> In the context of the statement 'All sankhara are anicca, all
> sankhara are dukkha, all dhammas anatta', sankhara means all
> conditioned dhammas. This is meaning No. 4 in Nyanatiloka's
> 'Buddhist Dictionary' list of meanings -- see below, particularly
> where it says:
> "This meaning applies to the well-known passage, "All formations 
are
> impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhára aniccá ...
> dukkhá)."
> 
> B. Sankhara as the bodily-, verbal- and mental-formation.
> This is meaning No. 2 in the list below. Here the context is
> 'nirodha-samaapatti', the cessation of perception and feeling.
> 
> As I'm sure you know, nirodha-samaapatti is 
(Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist
> Dictionary' again):
> "The temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity.
> The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said 
to
> be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions, as well as the 
previous
> attainment of Anágámi or Arahatship."
> 
> The context of nirodha-samaapatti can be seen from the passage in 
M.
> 44 that follows the one in your quote. The speaker (who is the
> arahant bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa) is asked by Visaakha in what order
> the 3 formations cease when attaining nirodha-samaapatti and she
> answers (using the MLDB translation):
> 17. "Friend Visaakha, when a bhikkhu is attaining the cessation of
> perception and feeling, first the verbal formation ceases, then the
> bodily formation, then the mental formation."
> 
> This I take to mean that the function of speech ceases first, then
> bodily actions (typified by breathing) cease, and finally all 
mental
> functions (exemplified by perception and feeling) cease.
> 
> As I think is clear from the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist
> Dictionary', we cannot just take one of the meanings of sankhara 
and
> substitute that in another of the meanings, without understanding
> exactly what the application is in each case.
> 
> To my reading, references in the teachings to conditioned 
dhammas/the
> five aggregates do not include a specific dhamma of 'breath'. What
> we take for breath is in fact a number of different conditioned
> dhammas. It is only these dhammas to which the characteristics of
> anicca/dukkha/anatta are applicable.
> 
> Jon
> 
> ***********
> Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'
> 'Sankhaara':
> 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, 
sankhára
> has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. 
wholesome
> or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), 
speech
> (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.).
> 2. The aforementioned three terms, káya-, vací- and citta-s. are
> sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily
> function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal
> function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3)
> mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44).
> 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhárakkhandha),
> and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to
> 'karmically forming' consciousness or not.
> 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata) 
and
> conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all
> phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-
known
> passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering"
> (sabbe sankhára aniccá ... dukkhá).
> ***********
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > So breath, in-&-out breathing, is bodily fabrication.
> > 
> > Is in-&-out breathing, a bodily fabrication, inconstant, dukkha,
> > not self?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> 



33059

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 8:27am
Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 03 )

PATTHANA  DHAMMA
30

Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are 
one of 24 conditions that can be seen in patthana dhamma. There are 6 
roots or 6 hetus. All these 6 roots or hetus are cetasika dhamma. 

They are lobha,dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha.

Lobha, dosa, and moha are called akusala hetus and alobha, adosa, and
amoha are called kusala hetus. These latter 3 hetus if they arise with
abyakata dhamma they are called abyakata hetus. 

Lobha is also known as tanha, upadana, samudaya and so on. Moha is 
sometimes called avijja. Alobha is sometimes refered to dana or 
offering but it is non-attachment. Adosa is metta or loving kindness. 
Amoha is pannindriya cetasika and simply called panna and is 
sometimes called vijja.

There are 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Among these 89 
cittas,18 cittas do not have any hetu or root with them. They are 
called ahetuka cittas and they are not conditioned by root condition. 

These 18 cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 5 akusala and 5 kusala in 
origin, 2 sampaticchana cittas or receiving consciousness again 
akusala and kusala, 2 upekkha santirana cittas, akusala and kusala, 
and 1 kusala somanassa santirana citta. These 15 cittas are vipaka 
cittas and they are called ahetuka vipaka cittas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo:
10 pancavinnana cittas are sense-consciousness. Panca means 'five'. 
Vinnana is made up of 'vi' and 'nana'. Nana is knowledge. Vi means 
particular or distinguishing or special or especial. Vinnana means a 
special kind of knowledge or consciousness.

Cakkhuvinnana or eye-consciousness is a kind of knowledge or 
consciousness that knows or that is aware of sense that is sight that 
appears at eye sense door.

If words are repeatedly studied then they become familiar words. Now 
that cakkhuvinnana has been explained. It is just knowledge of sight 
that arises at eye. It is a citta. It is a vinnana. It is 
cakkhuvinnana. So whenever cakkhuvinnana is met, there needs not be 
panic. Whether it is 'Cakkhuvinnana' or 'eye-consciousness' or 'sight-
consciousness' or just 'CV' that is Cakkhu-Vinnana is used, the 
essence is the same. But originality is Cakkhu-Vinnana. Cakkhu here 
is eye. By the same token, sota is related to ear, ghana is related 
to nose, jivha is related to tongue, and kaya is related to body.

CV, SV, GV, JV, and KV are vinnana. There are wholesome CV which is 
the result of good kamma and unwholesome Cv due to bad kamma. So 
there will be 2 CV, 2 SV, 2GV, 2JV, and 2 KV each has akusala and 
kusala vinnana cittas. So there are 10 vinnana cittas. As these 10 
arise one of 5 dvaras or doors, they are called pancavinnana citta. 
As each have 2 vinnana cittas they are collectively called 
dvipancavinnana cittas. Dvi means 2 or double.

Sampaticchana citta is receiving mind. Citta just lasts a moment. In 
a satt, life starts with patisandhi citta. Satta means 'being'. 
Patisandhi is made up of 'pati' and 'sandhi'. Pati means 'again'. 
Sandhi means 'to link'. It links cuti citta of past live and the 
first bhavanga citta of present life. It stays in the middle. After 
the first bhavanga citta there are countless cittas and the life of a 
satta or being ends with arising of cuti citta which is dying 
consciousness. So between patisandhi citta or linking consciousness 
and cuti citta or dying consciousness, there are countless cittas 
and all these constitute a life including patisandhi and cuti cittas.

After the first bhavanga citta there follows many cittas. Bhavanga is 
made up of 'Bhava' and 'Anga'. Bhava is life or existence and 'Anga' 
means part or a part or a portion or a piece or a component. After 
1st bhavanga citta BC, there follows many BCs. At a time there hit a 
sense impression and vithi cittas arise. Vithi 
means 'serial' 'order'. Vithi cittas come in exact order and so all 
cittas that come in that order are called vithi cittas.

The order is

1. 1st Pancadvaravajjana citta
2. 2nd Pancavinnana citta
3. 3rd Sampaticchana citta
4. 4th Santirana citta
5. 5th Votthapana citta
6. 6th Javana citta
7. 7th Tadarammana citta

All pancadvara vithi cittas come in that exact order and they always 
follow the rule of citta niyama.

Pancadvara means 5-doors. Pancadvaravajjana means 5-doors-
contemplating. Pancadvaravajjana citta is a citta that contemplates 
on 5 sense doors. When a sense impression arises, as both sense ( for 
example sight ) and eye ( cakkhu pasada rupa ) are just in their 
infancy and a citta passed away. That citta is past BC or Atita BC or 
A-BC. Another citta arises without knowing that sight sense but just 
the same object of BC and it is another BC called Bhavanga Calana 
Citta or C-BC. Calana means shaking, reverbrating, rippling. 2 citta 
moments lapses. 3rd citta arises. That citta is just going to release 
its own object that is object of BC and just going to grasp a new 
object that is sight which has now been 3 citta moments. Still the 
3rd citta is BC and its object is that of BC. It is called arresting 
BC or Bhavangupaccheda or U-BC. Upaccheda means 'cut 
out' 'stop' 'arrest'. Next arises 4th citta. This citta is vithi 
citta. It is pancadvaravajjana citta. BCs have passed away. A citta 
arises. But that citta does not know what the sense is. So that citta 
contemplates on one of five doors and then it falls away. As it 
contemplates that is it looks for which door the sense is coming in, 
it is called pancadvara-avajjana citta. Avajjana has two 
parts. 'Arammana' or 'A' and 'Vajjana'. Vajjana is 'to contemplate'.

So avajjana is contemplation on arammana. Pancadvaravajjana citta 
contemplates on which arammana is arising at which door. It just 
falls away without knowledge of what the sense is. But it knew which 
door the sense came in. As it knows the door already, next arising 
citta exactly arise depending on the door. So pancadvaravajjana citta 
is like turning the attention to one of a specific sense door. If the 
sense is from eye, cakkhuvinnana CV arises. If ear it is SV and if 
nose GV, if tongue JV, and if body KV arise. As these are from 5 
sense doors they all are collectively called Pancavinnana citta.

Pancavinna cittas just know their correspondind sense. But they do 
not know what their implications are. Pancavinnana citta just passes 
away. Immediately arises is sampaticchana citta. It is receiving mind.

Sampaticchana is made up of 'sam' and 'paticchana'. 'sam' means well, 
neatly, tidily, exactly, accurately. 'paticchana' means 'to receive'. 
This citta just receives the sense that was just sensed by 
pancavinnana. It just knows and just receives and hands over to the 
next arising citta. Sampaticchana does not fully know what the 
implications of that sense are.

Next arises santirana citta. Santirana means 'to investigate' 'to 
explore' 'to test'. While sampaticchana just receives the sense, 
santirana investigates what the sense is like. Next arises votthapana 
citta. When santirana did investigation, votthapana citta determines 
or decides how to feel or how to sense in full effect. But it still 
does not feel or sense in full length but just decides.

Next arises the 1st javana citta. Javana 
means 'rapid' 'quick' 'fast'. There will follow 7 successive citta 
after votthapana citta. As citta last only just a moment, this 
successive arising of 7 same cittas seems to be very very fast. So 
they all are called javana citta. They fully know the sense. They 
fully sense the sense. But in the 1st vara the sense is not that of 
full realisation. Vara means 'turn' 'timing'.

after the 1st javana citta passes away, next arise 2nd javana citta. 
It knows more than the 1st. And this happen till the 7th javana citta.

Next arise 1st Tadarammana citta. Tada means 'then'. Arammana means 
object. Tadarammana citta takes the same object of 7th javana citta. 
So it is called then-object or tadarammana. It seems retention of the 
object of javana citta, which all 7 javana cittas have sensed fully 
and tadarammana just retents. Next arise 2nd Tadarammana citta. After 
passing away of this 2nd tadarammana, no vithi citta can arise as 
sense impression of existing rupa has passed away.

There are

1. A-BC ( Atita Bhavanga Citta )
2. C-BC ( Bhavnga Calana Citta )
3. U-BC ( BhavangUpaccheda Citta )
4. P-AC ( PancaDvaraAvajjana Citta )
5. P-VC (PancaVinnana Citta )
6. S-PC ( SamPaticchana Citta )
7. S-TC ( SanTirana Citta )
8. M-VC ( ManodvaraVajjana Citta ) which is votthapana citta
9. F-JC ( First Javana Citta )
10.Sc-JC ( SeCond Javana Citta )
11.T-JC ( Third Javana Citta )
12.Fo-JC ( FOurth Javana Citta )
13.Fi-JC ( FIfth Javana Citta )
14.Si-JC ( SIx Javana Citta )
15.Sv-JC ( SeVen Javana Citta )
16.F-TdC ( First TaDarammana Citta )
17.S-TdC ( Second TaDarammana Citta )

Rupa has a life of 17 citta moments. So next follows uncounted 
bhavanga cittas.

Whenever the sense impression is very clear, cittas arise in this 
exact order.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	

 	 

	
33060

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 9:23am
Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

Let me respond in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor, and Rob Ep
> 
> Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered in
> part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue has
> been raised by him in recent posts.



What exactly is the issue in discussion?



> 
> Victor:
> Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
> great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
> when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
> their culmination."
> 
> Jon:
> Context is everything. In the sutta, these words come at the end 
of
> the description of the occasion on which the discourse was given.




So you said that context is everything, and you tried to put these 
words
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination."
in context.







It
> is helpful to look at the occasion to get a proper understanding of
> the teaching being given. 




Is the issue about proper understanding of the teaching being given?




I have set out below the relevant part of
> the 'occasion' description, which is often overlooked (people like 
to
> jump straight in at the passage you have quoted). 




Relevant to what? In other words, you tried to bring out a 
context. However, the question is:

What is the issue or question to be discussed? 



The text is taken
> from ATI; I have added paragraph numbers so that I can cross refer
> more easily.
> 
> The first point to note is that the assembly of monks to which the
> sutta is given is an extremely illustrious one. 




So what is the point?




This is indicated by
> the roll-call of 'well-known elder disciples' [1], the glowing
> description of the assembly by the Buddha [7] and the description 
of
> different levels of attainment of those present, who included:
> [8] Arahants, 
> [9] non-returners
> [10] once-returners
> [11] stream-enterers
> [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four 
frames
> of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble
> eightfold path'
> [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will...
> compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the]
> foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. 
> [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out 
breathing'.
> 
> 
> Note the reference at [12] to monks who 'remain devoted to' the
> development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors 
for
> Awakening... the noble eightfold path'. This I take to mean monks
> who are well advanced in the development of insight (vipassana
> bhavana).
> 
> Now regarding the monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of
> in-&-out breathing' [14], these are the monks to whom the passage 
we
> are now considering is addressed in particular. I see 2 things of
> significance.
> 
> The first is that these monks are already skilled in the 
development
> of samatha with breath as object; the second is that they are not 
yet
> to be counted among those who are 'devoted to the development of 
the
> four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the
> noble eightfold path' at [12], i.e., as being firmly established in
> the development of insight.
> 
> Now let's look again at your passage, in the light of this
> background. It reads [15]:
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, ... 
> [J: as being developed by those just described at [14]]
> when developed & pursued, ... 
> [J: i.e., developed and pursued in the particular way to be 
described
> later in this sutta]
> brings the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for
> Awakening ...clear knowing & release to their culmination." 
> [J: i.e., as for the persons described at [12], who are well
> established in insight]
> 
> So I see this passage as extolling the development of insight, in
> tandem with the further development of samatha with breath as 
object,
> for those who have already developed samatha with breath as object.
> 
> I do not see in this particular passage the message that people
> wishing to development insight are advised to do so by also
> developing samatha with breath as object.



What does this point of yours, and I am not saying whether it is 
right or wrong in itself, have to do with the passage:

Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination."

the passage you tried to put in context in the first place?

What does it get to do with the message that you responded?



> 
> A final point of interest is that the assembly includes monks who 
are
> skilled in samatha with other objects such as the 4 brahma-viharas,
> foulness of the body, and the perception of impermanence [13]. 
> However, no special instruction is given here (or elsewhere, that 
I'm
> aware of) for the concurrent development of insight for these
> disciples. I suspect this reflects the fact that enlightenment 
based
> on jhana with breath as object is of particular difficulty, and is 
a
> course that is suitable for Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas and the great
> disciples, i.e., for the very greatest of beings.




Again, what is the issue? And how is it relevant to the message and 
passage that you responded? 



> 
> Jon

Metta,
Victor
	
33061

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 6:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana

In a message dated 5/14/04 3:49:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rob.moult@j... writes:
There is a wealth of information on Dana at 
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/dana.htm

Here is a summary (extracted from various authors on this website):
==========
Rob,

Many thanks. There were lots of good ideas in your quotes that I can use.

Jack


	
33062

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 10:56am
Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Christine (& Howard),

Re MN 2: "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by 
seeing have
been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned
by restraining have been abandoned by restraining"

There are many interesting notes on this sutta in B. Bodhi's trans. 
Apparently "seeing" here means seeing nibbana and is meant to 
represent stream entry.

Also apparently restraining the senses is a matter of interpretation 
(sanna/sati)rather than simply not looking. It is restraining the 
proliferation of interpretation that tends toward seeing the 
impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasant, not self as self, 
and the foul as beautiful. Tracing this through Vism. I,53-55 & note 
14 we see that this ties into Udana 8 ("The seen shall be merely the 
seen".) Using the example of the Elder Maha Tissa who saw a beautiful 
girl as merely a group of bones I would say there is still 
considerable mental formation. The Elder didn't say all I say was 
colors. Conventional experience is still at work here. 

Howard, since you have expressed an interest in the restraint of the 
senses, I wonder if you have any thoughts on this? 

Larry
	
33063

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 7:29am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi, Larry (and Christine) -

In a message dated 5/16/04 1:59:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> Hi Christine (& Howard),
> 
> Re MN 2: "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by 
> seeing have
> been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be abandoned
> by restraining have been abandoned by restraining"
> 
> There are many interesting notes on this sutta in B. Bodhi's trans. 
> Apparently "seeing" here means seeing nibbana and is meant to 
> represent stream entry.
> 
> Also apparently restraining the senses is a matter of interpretation 
> (sanna/sati)rather than simply not looking. It is restraining the 
> proliferation of interpretation that tends toward seeing the 
> impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasant, not self as self, 
> and the foul as beautiful. Tracing this through Vism. I,53-55 &note 
> 14 we see that this ties into Udana 8 ("The seen shall be merely the 
> seen".) Using the example of the Elder Maha Tissa who saw a beautiful 
> girl as merely a group of bones I would say there is still 
> considerable mental formation. The Elder didn't say all I say was 
> colors. Conventional experience is still at work here. 
> 
> Howard, since you have expressed an interest in the restraint of the 
> senses, I wonder if you have any thoughts on this? 
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
============================
I think that restraining the senses is really restraining the mind - 
attending mindfully and avoiding mental proliferation, reification, craving, 
and aversion; that is, avoiding harmful reaction. In this regard, please see the 
sutta at ATI with the following url: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-191.html This sutta also makes crysal clear, I believe, that 
ill is not inherent in objects of experience but in our reactions to them.
Largely, restraining the senses amounts to noting and letting go. It 
is a process of mindful attending and relinquishing. The "not grasping of 
details" often referred to does not, as I see it, mean not observing details 
carefully, but, rather, seeing them extremely clearly for what they actually are, 
not clinging to them, and not emotionally and cognitively embellishing them.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33064

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation

Dear Philip,
I like very much what you write here. Refuge is not outward, the inner
attitude is what matters. Your growing confidence. It grows when there is
more understanding.
Nina. 
op 16-05-2004 00:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> The last lines of Chapter 6: "We take our refuge in the Buddha
> when we have confidence in his teachings and we consider it the most
> important thing in life to practice what he taught." This is
> certainly true in my case these days so I suppose I may have taken
> refuge in some way without having formally done so.
	
33065

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 4:31pm
Subject: Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Christine and all,

I think the quote you provided is excellent and to the point. 

I find the following discourse relevent:

Anguttara Nikaya III.70
Muluposatha Sutta
The Roots of the Uposatha
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-070.html

Let me quote a passage from it:

"And what is the Uposatha of the Noble Ones? It is the cleansing of 
the defiled mind through the proper technique. And how is the 
defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? 

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects 
the Tathagata, thus: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly 
self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an 
expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those 
people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, 
awakened, blessed.' As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is 
calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, 
just as when the head is cleansed through the proper technique. And 
how is the head cleansed through the proper technique? Through the 
use of cosmetic paste & clay & the appropriate human effort. This is 
how the head is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same 
way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And 
how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There 
is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the 
Tathagata... As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is 
cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. 
He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the 
Brahma-Uposatha. He lives with Brahma [= the Buddha]. It is owing to 
Brahma that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever 
defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the 
mind is cleansed through the proper technique. 

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello Victor, and all,
> 
> It seems there a few categories of kilesa, and differing ways to 
> abandon them - according to the Sabbasava Sutta MN 2 "All the 
> Fermentations"
> 
> "When a monk's fermentations that should be abandoned by seeing 
have 
> been abandoned by seeing, his fermentations that should be 
abandoned 
> by restraining have been abandoned by restraining, his 
fermentations 
> that should be abandoned by using have been abandoned by using, 
his 
> fermentations that should be abandoned by tolerating have been 
> abandoned by tolerating, his fermentations that should be 
abandoned 
> by avoiding have been abandoned by avoiding, his fermentations 
that 
> should be abandoned by destroying have been abandoned by 
destroying, 
> his fermentations that should be abandoned by developing have been 
> abandoned by developing, then he is called a monk who dwells 
> restrained with the restraint of all the fermentations. He has 
> severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right 
> penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress."
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html
> 
> Do you have any sutta links for Defilements?
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
[snip]
	
33066

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Howard,

I agree there's no defilement in the object. However, I think both sutta
and abhidhamma specifies inherently undesirable, moderately desirable,
and very desirable objects. That's where the notion of foulness comes
from. When the beautiful woman encountered and laughed at the Elder
Maha-Tissa he said all he saw was a group of bones because all he saw
was her teeth, and they weren't pretty. The way I read this is that a
beautiful woman is indeed desirable but her parts are undesirable
(foul). If a monk were to see a beautiful woman and think her
undesirable that would be a perversion (vipallasa). But if a monk were
to see a beautiful woman as a group of foul parts that would not be a
perversion. For a doctor I think we would have to look closer at the
parts and say if they are health they are desirable and if unhealthy
they are undesirable. See p.172 in CMA for further details.

Larry
-----------------------
Howard: "I think that restraining the senses is really restraining the
mind - attending mindfully and avoiding mental proliferation,
reification, craving, and aversion; that is, avoiding harmful reaction.
In this regard, please see the sutta at ATI with the following url: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-191.html This
sutta also makes crysal clear, I believe, that ill is not inherent in
objects of experience but in our reactions to them. 
              Largely, restraining the
senses amounts to noting and letting go. It is a process of mindful
attending and relinquishing. The "not grasping of details" often
referred to does not, as I see it, mean not observing details carefully,
but, rather, seeing them extremely clearly for what they actually are,
not clinging to them, and not emotionally and cognitively embellishing
them."
	
33067

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 5:30pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip: my vacation

Hello Nina, and all

Thank you for your encouraging words, Nina. As it happens I had 
another insight into the concept of refuge this morning. 

There are some very ugly and frightening issues arising (again) 
on my wife's side of the family. There is a tendency for me to want 
to hide away in my dhamma books and take refuge in an unwholesome 
sense of the word. I'm sure some people at the early stages of 
developing understanding use their deepening interest in the Buddha's 
teaching to hide away from life's problems, crouching down with one's 
nose in a book or sitting on a cushion with one's attention on the 
breath until the storm passes. True refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma 
and the Sangha will help me to deal with life's problems in a 
confident calm way, right out in the storm and able to weather with 
it more wisely and, perhaps, help provide guidance to other people 
caught in it as well. 

I could also take the dhamma and say that everything is 
conditioned, so there is nothing that can be done to help the people 
in question. I think there is an element of truth in that in many 
situations, but the Buddha didn't want us to take it to extremes. 

I will take refuge but be sure not to do it in a way that allows me 
to hide from life's problems.

Metta,
Phil

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Philip,
> I like very much what you write here. Refuge is not outward, the 
inner
> attitude is what matters. Your growing confidence. It grows when 
there is
> more understanding.
> Nina. 
> op 16-05-2004 00:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
> 
> > The last lines of Chapter 6: "We take our refuge in the Buddha
> > when we have confidence in his teachings and we consider it the 
most
> > important thing in life to practice what he taught." This is
> > certainly true in my case these days so I suppose I may have taken
> > refuge in some way without having formally done so.
	
33068

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 6:45pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea

?@Hello Sarah, Kom and all

Time now to catch up with this thread. Thank you for your feedback.. 
I must admit that I missed Kom?fs reply. My apologies for that. I 
think I will have to return to receiving e-mails rather than just 
checking at the board because I miss things. 

> > Ph: I think this would be true for something subtle, like 
choosing 
> > between harsh speech and gentle speech, or between daydreaming of 
> > something unwholesome or staying in the moment to examine 
realities, 
> > but when it comes to gross defilements like being interested in 
war 
> > footage, I would disagree and say something can and should be 
done 
> > about it. We DO have an option with the crude excesses, I'm 
thinking -
> > with subtle or latent defilements it's a different story. 
> ....
> S: Like Kom* was stressing:
> Kom: `none other than the Buddha can teach about the anattaness of 
all
> realities. It is not only the conceptual understanding of 
anattaness that
> the Buddha taught, but ultimately, it is the reality arising now, 
and the
> wisdom that realizes it directly, what anattaness is all about.?E
> 
> We think wehave lots of options , but these too are conditioned 
moments
> of thinking. Does this mean that we just follow the war footage and 
be
> overcome by the crude excesses? That would not be right either. An
> understanding of anatta or conditioned dhammas means there is more
> knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states, not less. Whether 
kusala or
> akusala cittas arise now or whether there is enough restraint to 
abstain
> from clicking on www. Iraq.com, however, depends on many 
conditions, none
> of which include self-Option?E though a wrong view about self-
Option?E> and thinking in this will in itself be a condition for 
further wrong views
> in future.

Ph: Even in the short time since starting this thread I am starting 
to have better understanding of how my unwholesome interest in this 
is conditioned and how in the end it will be right understanding 
rather than will power that leads me out of the bad habit. Kom?fs 
sentence ?g..there is more knowledge of the danger of unwholesome 
states.?h Is what it will come down to, not will power. I can see 
that this is what happened with another bad habit that I have pretty 
much eradicated (it would be unwise to claim complete victory.) I 
would vow to stop, and have backslides, and regrets, and vow to stop 
again and have more backslides. Each time the period of abstinence 
grew longer and the backslide period shorter and now I am able to 
believe that there will not be more backslides. Through this process 
it was not that my will was getting stronger, it was that my 
?gknowledge of the danger of unwholesome states?h was getting 
clearer. The same thing is already happening with my unwholesome 
interest in the news. It took long years &#8211; maybe 10- to eradicate 
the other bad habit. I?fve only had this unwholesome interest in the 
news for a couple of years so it will take time.

....
> > Ph: Yes, it's not an attachment to believing that the other 
option 
> > is more fertile, but I really have to believe that allowing 
onself to 
> > be further polluted by certain kinds of media - pronography, for 
> > example - in the belief that it is an equally valid way of 
examining 
> > rupa and nama could be a trap for a beginner like myself to fall 
> > into. 
> ....
> S: That?fs not quite how I'd put it. My point was that whatever 
cittas,
> cetasikas or rupas are appearing now, by conditions, can be known. 
If
> there is an idea that another activity or nama or rupa has to occur 
first,
> then it?fs wrong. If we think that oh well, might just as well look 
at the
> disturbing news or porn because they?fre all namas and rupas just 
the
same?E that would be equally wrong.
Ph: I see what you mean now. And by being known, the cittas and 
cetasikas can leads me a step further towards the right understanding 
of ?gthe knowledge of the danger of unwholesome states.?h 



P; > > Let's think of the citta stream as an actual river. I'm 
talking 
> > about clearing out rotten logs and old bicycles and washing 
machines 
> > that are blocking the flow. 

Ph: I should have said that the big pieces of junk divert the flow 
into boggy areas rather than blocking the flow. 


> S: Who does the clearing out? There are only cittas, cetasikas and 
rupas
> as you know.
> ....
> >When that's done, the time will come to 
> > take a more refined, less self-directed approach. That's the way 
I'm 
> > seeing it now. I wonder if anyone else agrees that there is the 
need 
> > for self to do some heavy work at the beginning to prepare for 
the 
> > release of self? 
> ...
> S: Don?ft worry - the Great Majority will be on the need for self?E
side
anywhere you look;-).

Ph: The confusing thing for me - but not in a troubling way - is that 
even within the Theravada community there seems to be a view that the 
mind can be directed in a wholesome direction. For example, this from 
Ayya Khema: ?gInstead of thinking about this and that, allowing the 
defilements to arise we could also *direct* the mind towards 
something beneficial such as investigating our likes and dislikes, 
our desires and rejections our ideas and views. When the mind 
inquires, it doesn?ft get involved in its own creations. It can?ft do 
both at the same time. As it becomes more and more observant, it 
remain objective for longer periods of time.?h My stress on ?gdirect" 
Of course it could be said that she means the mind is directed by 
right understanding that gradually comes, and probably that?fs what 
she does mean. But the talks I took this from were to novice nuns, I 
think, and she may have used ?gdirect the mind?h in an active sense 
because she believed it could be of value for people with an early 
degree of understanding. That?fs my take on it. There are many cases 
where she does this, as does Ajahn Chah - though who knows if it isn?f
t the translation that might give that impression. 
Let me tell you about an exercise that I have been doing in the 
light of the above quotation. When I walk home from the station, I am 
tired and hungry and walk through a fairly barren stretch of joyless 
industrial wasteland.. There has been a tendency for my mind to latch 
onto unwholesome fantasies to kill time during this 20 minute walk.. 
They used to be sexual in nature, but I seem to have eradicated the 
worst of that, so now they are related to either the thrilling 
horrors of war or the beauties of baseball. I decided to use the time 
to stay as tuned as possible into the realities of the moment as 
possible. Looking at rupa and nama in my beginner?fs way. It is an 
intentional practice and for those 20 minutes my mind is not 
permitted to churn up crud or when crud arises it is released. And I 
find now that when I walk anywhere there are moments when I feel the 
same objectivity arising . I feel this is a result of having set that 
practice. Now it is probably true that this practice arose in a 
conditioned way. I see that. But whether is it conditioned or not 
there is directing of the mind involved. And when that directing 
happens it is a remnant of self that thinks it is doing it, if you 
know what I mean. I don?ft know if that makes any sense.

Ph: > > him that the work he will be doing will be the preliminary 
stages of 
> > a process that will lead to his being laid off!
> ....
> S: :-)I love the analogy (and all the others you give in other 
posts). 
> The problem is that the more you rely on this fellow and the more 
he seems
> to be the answer to your prayers, the harder it'll be to ever lay 
him off
> or to see the need to do so. In other words, self-view just leads 
to more
> self-view. It never leads to insight.

Ph: I must say I like this analogy too and will be thinking about it 
more. I also keep getting the image of the remnant of self being a 
person getting dressed in a beautiful way for a ceremony in which he 
will be sacrificed gently. Self becoming more purified, and 
wholesome, in order that it can be released, or dissolved even, in 
the light of true Dhamma. Christmas Humphries, who I understand was 
one of the people who helped to bring Buddhism to the West, wrote 
about self, Self and SELF, I remember, but I can?ft remember just 
what. The final SELF suggests a mistaken belief in something like an 
Atman, I guess, but I?fm interested in the idea that before self is 
fully understood to be a fiction, and is released, it can become a 
more refined fiction, a more wholesome fiction.
As Sarah said this belief could lead to make it harder to finally 
let the fiction of self go, but I think that underestimates the power 
of the Buddha?fs teaching.. Constant exposure to the Buddha?fs 
teaching and good Dhamma friends would lead one eventually to waking 
up from the fiction, but there could be benefits in making the 
fiction more wholesome before closing the book on it. Possibly. It 
could also be that as a person who has an interest in writing 
stories, the fiction of self is accumulated in a way for me in a way 
that makes it so attractive that I have to finish the story in a good 
way before closing the book.. 

Well, I don?ft have time now to respond to the rest of the post, 
but I?fll be saving it and reading it carefully again.

Metta,
Phil
	
33069

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 7:17pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Sarah, Christine and All

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi RobM, Chris & All,
> 
> Rob, your wise comments reminded me of some useful feedback I 
received
> from a good friend (off-list) and I hope you may be able to add 
more.

Sometimes an activity is a good way of driving home a point. Try the 
following:
Take a piece of paper and write down all the letters of the alphabet 
(a - z)

It probably took you less than 30 seconds and you didn't have 
to "fire too many neurons" to accomplish this task.

Now write the letters of the alphabet (a - z) using "mirror writing" 
(the way that Leonardo DaVinci wrote, backwards so that the letters 
appear correct when viewed in a mirror).

Unless you are DaVinci, it probably took you a lot longer than 30 
seconds and you probably had to do a lot of thinking to get it 
correct (even then, you probably made a few mistakes).

This activity drives home how ingrained habits are. Applying this to 
natural decisive support condition, we can see how pervaisive are our 
accumulations (both good and bad) in directing our lives.

When we sit in meditation, we naturally perceive "mind" and "object" 
as separate entities. From this perspective, it is not too difficult 
to conceptualize anatta; there is no "self" in the object and there 
is no "self" in the mind, the mind works according to natural 
processes.

Now we get up from meditation and notice our kid's room is messy. All 
of that mind / object dichotomy goes out the window and it is 
replaced by a strong sense of self, "*I* am angry. You have made *ME* 
angry, etc..

We all have problems maintaining the mind / object during daily life, 
but the underlying realities have not changed. What has changed is 
our perspective.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33070

From: m. nease <mlnease@z...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 7:43pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Hi Jon,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonothan Abbott" <jonoabb@y...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)


> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
...

> you might find the following quote helpful:
> "Now, lady, what are fabrications?"
> "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications,
> verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications."
> "But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What
> are mental fabrications?"
> "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought &
> evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental
> fabrications."

(Jon):

> From what I've been able to find out, 'fabrications' ('sankhaaras')
> in your quoted passage does not carry either of its more usual
> meanings of (a) all conditioned dhammas (i.e. the five aggregates),
> or (b) the mental states comprising the fourth aggregate
> ('sankhaara-khandha'). Instead it carries a more specialised meaning
> that has relevance in the context of the attainment of cessation (as
> M. 44 goes on to deal with).
>
> According to the introductory note to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of
> the Majjhima Nikaya ('Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha', p55):
>
> <<<
> The word 'sankhaara' occurs in four major contexts in the Pali
> suttas:
> (1) As the second factor in the formula of dependent origination it
> is used to mean volitional actions ...
> (2) As the fourth of the five aggregates the 'sankhaaras' comprise
> all the mental factors not included in the other three mental
> aggregates ...
> (3) 'Sankhaara' is also used in a very comprehensive sense to
> signify everything produced by conditions. In this sense it
> comprises all five aggregates ...
> (4) In still another context the word 'sankhaara' is used in
> relation to 'kaaya', 'vacii' and 'citta' -- body, speech and mind --
> to mean the bodily formation, which is in-and-out breathing; the
> verbal formation, which is applied thought and sustained thought; and
> the mental formation, which is perception and feeling. ...
> 'Sankhaara' is also employed outside these major contexts ..."
>
> A similar set of meanings is given in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist
> Dictionary' (copied below). Both writings make reference to M. 44 in
> the context of the definition appropriate to your quoted passage (No
> 4 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's, No 2 in Nyanatiloka's).
>
> Of interest on the general subject of 'dhammas' etc. is that in
> Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes he adds, in relation to the third meaning given
> above:
> "This usage comes close in meaning to the ontological use of
> 'dhamma', except that the latter is wider in range since it includes
> the unconditioned element Nibbaana and concepts ('pannatti'), both of
> which are excluded from 'sankhaara'."
>
> I hope this helps resolve any apparent disparity in my statement and
> your sutta quote.

In my opinion it not only does so, but is also a nice bit of homework,
showing the potential ambiguities in various translations of 'sankhaara'.
Confusing the different meanings of this word in different contexts is
potentially disastrous, I think.

mike
	
33071

From: m. nease <mlnease@z...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 8:53pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Appreciating Abhidhamma (was abhidhamma and citta #2206)

Hi Again Kom,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kom Tukovinit" <komb@s...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Appreciating Abhidhamma (was abhidhamma and citta #2206)

> A friend reminded me responding to my previous post that what I 
> should have said was that materiality or mentality rises because of 
> its conditions, performs its individual functions together with its 
> own characteristics, and then falls away. 

A good friend indeed in my opinion.

mike
	
33072

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 9:24pm
Subject: Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Howard,

Breaths/in-&-out breathings are inconstant, dukkha, not self, and it 
is to be seen as it actually is thus: inconstant, dukkha, not 
self. 

Breaths/in-&-out breathings are bodily fabrications, and bodily 
fabrications are conditioned, not unconditioned.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Jon (and Victor) -
[snip]
> However, one can also truthfully say, but derivatively, conv
> entionally, and abbreviationally, that breath, too, is anicca, 
dukkha, and anatta. It is 
> just that one should be very careful and very clear in one's mind 
as to 
> exactly what is meant when that is said. The sense in which anicca 
and anatta, 
> especially, apply to conventional objects is their applying to the 
actual 
> phenomena that underlie them. As the underlying phenomena arise 
and cease, the 
> conventional object appears to change.
> Dukkha, however, applies not only derivatively to 
conventional 
> objects, but also directly, because dukkha depends on mind. There 
is the following:
> __________________________
> > ... association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from 
the loved is 
> > dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha
> ----------------------------------------------
> I do believe that the "things" that are unloved etc are 
conventional 
> objects, including persons. Grief can arise, for example, at least 
as strongly 
> with regard to the loss of a fictitious entity believed to be real 
as with 
> regard to an actual phenomenon.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33073

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 10:58pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Dear Sukin,
Thank you for your response. I see I am now behind a few posts in
this thread -- hope I can catch up. 

I am going straight to your comment below on meditation, after making
an overall comment on the earlier part of your post, which I have snipped.

I understand your objections to my characterization of pariyatti as an
activity. My reason for doing so is not because of a continued
misunderstanding of the word "practice" but because I have tried to
show that anything we do with an intention will carry the expectations
of that intention, and that sutta study, even for Right Understanding,
necessarily has an intention.

Leaving that point aside, however, you make a very valid argument that
sutta study has an unique characteristic, which is that of basic
intellectual understanding, and that without such understanding there
can be no Right View. I think this and the point you make below about
meditation are the crux of the matter between us, so I will focus on
them for this part of the post. 

The matter comes down to whether intellectual understanding of the
suttas is indeed the primary foundation for Right View, and to what
extent that is the baseline involvement that leads to mindfulness,
wisdom and enlightenment. The meditative traditions do indeed feel
that direct discernment of realities is more important that sutta
study, in that reality is before one, not primarily in a book, and
that after a basic understanding of the suttas, too much involvement
in intellectual study can actually be a block to discernment of
realities. I would say that a healthy balance is what is called for,
so that one does not develop wrong ideas, but also doesn't depend on
right ideas that are primarily of the intellect.

I tend to look at things practically, and to my understanding what we
do defines our way of thinking. If we spend most of our time reading
books, our outlook will be "bookish." Our personalities are malleable
enough that we will be shaped by the environment to which we are
subjected to a good extent. If we spend time sitting silently
observing realities we will be more inclined to pay attention to the
moment and begin to see what is in front of our nose. I know you
don't think that "looking" gives a correct approach in and of itself,
and I respect your view, but I do not totally agree with it. I agree
to the extent that sitting around looking with the mind focussed on
achievement would bolster the ego -- I can understand that argument. 
But what I cannot understand is that you seem to negate any positive
impact of sitting and discerning the moment, even though this is
supposed to be the actual activity of mindfulness. This does not make
sense to me. The argument that having this purpose to improve
mindfulness will block mindfulness and lead to akusala perceptions and
results, also only makes sense to me up to a point. If one looks at
even one's own intentions for achievement and treats them to the same
discernment as any other arising reality, this seems to me to at least
partially solve that problem, or at least move in that direction. You
seem to give the possibility of having a "pure" approach to direct
discernment absolutely no credence or chance of success. I don't
understand what seems to be a blanket prejudice towards such an action.

I admit that without some sutta study to understand what the four
noble truths, eightfold path and mechanisms by which mindfulness
develops, it would be very difficult to function properly on the path.
but the question is, how centered is the path in this one area, and
what else is included in the path.

Now let me go to your comment below:

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula"
<sukinder@k...> wrote:

> Formal meditation may or may not be one such experience, however 
> since it usually relates to what we understand by `right practice',
this 
> makes it quite unlikely that satipatthana will ever arise. Because 
it is fed 
> with the idea that an object other than what is arising now in the 
> moment, is more suitable. 

This I do not understand at all. Meditation is just the opposite of
what you describe. Rather than looking for another object that is
more suitable to arise, all of the meditation approaches that I am
familiar with have the intention of discerning exactly what is
currently arising, not to replace it with something else. You could
not allow for the value of the jhanas, which the Buddha certainly saw
as a valuable asset on the path, or any other direct development of
concentration or discernment without seeing the possibility of
meditation that is not motivated by akusala motives, but is in line
with the principles of direct undestanding of cittas. It has to be a
possibility, otherwise anything we do that is geared towards
understanding realities will have the same flaw.

i don't know what your understanding of meditation is, or if you have
ever practiced it yourself, but it seems inaccurate to me. Buddhist
meditation is Buddhist meditation because it is founded in Buddhism. 
It is not against the principles of Buddhism, it is derived from them
and is the expression of them. Buddhist meditation does not try to
elevate one's state or replace it with another. Like all things in
Buddhism it looks at them directly in the moment to discern their reality.

With such an idea also one can't avoid self-
> view, the root of all wrong views. 

Why do you assume this is true of meditation? With all we have said
you have provided no rationale why this is more so in meditation than
in any of the involvements that you think are more kusala. You don't
like me to compare meditation to sutta study but I have seen no
rationale for why the same prejudices that can arise in regard to
meditation cannot be equally hampering in sutta study. It seems to me
that you ar basing your view on sutta study being better than
meditation as a way to reach understanding. You have said that it is
not the activity but the View which gives rise to kusala or akusala
results, yet you wind up saying that meditation itself is more prone
to akusala because it promotes an akusala attitude and so you are back
to comparing the activities rather than the View. 

So no matter what we then say to 
> justify our practice, it will be chained to `self'. And there can't be 
> any `release of expectation', because this may be hidden. Besides there 
> is no one who does this, only panna (even if this be on the level of 
> pariyatti) does not expect. 

I still don't see how this evil only arises with respect to
meditation. This seems like a prejudice against the activity to me. 
And not true to my experience. [taking "my" as a convention of course.]

> We may see the difference between pariyatti and patipatti, and know 
> that compared to the latter, the former is indeed limited. And we may 
> also realize how much precious time is being wasted, `not practicing'. 
> But what can be done? I mentioned in my last post to Ken H and Sarah 
> about a level of intellectual understanding called `sacca nnana'. When 
> panna develops to the level of being firm in the understanding of the 
> 4NT, where proliferation through the six sense doors is seen over and 
> over again and understood, only this panna can condition repeated 
> going back to the arising dhamma. 

You describe going back to the arising dhamma over and over again, but
simply rule out meditation which was founded in Buddhism for this very
reason. It defies understanding why this exact mechanism that is
meant for this purpose would be the one practice that would be
stricken from your list of skillful means.

And this would be the constant 
> mindfulness which some of us hope to achieve but which many think 
> they have when they `sit'. 

Why do you assume that the meditator has this presumption? They are
"hoping to achieve it" somewhere down the road just as anyone is.

And even then, the experience will be very 
> sporadic since kilesas have not been eradicated. In fact even for a low 
> level ariyan, the mindfulness is interspersed with moha and other 
> akusala and kusala. And `insight' which is what is being developed, 
> happens in flashes. But is this the kind of experience of a
meditator? I 
> don't think so. 
> 
> I know Rob, that I have only made bold statements. I did make notes on 
> paper to reply in text, but decided against it because it would have
been 
> too long. I hope you don't mind that on receiving a response from
you, I 
> decide for some reason to drop this discussion. I have only so much 
> stamina I think.
> 
> Metta,
> Sukin.

Okay. Well, I appreciate your effort, and thanks for the conversation.

Best,
Robert
	
33075

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:14pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula"
<sukinder@k...> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
> 
> Yesterday a couple of things were disturbing me, both of which lasted 
> till the end of the day. Today things are different, so I look back
at my 
> post I wrote to you yesterday with some regret. I take back what I said 
> in the end about possibly not wanting to continue this thread, sorry
for 
> that. :-)

No problem. I am catching up after the fact, so forgive me for that.
I have already replied to your other post, so I will continue from there.

> > I am still looking for a principled reason why reading in order to
> > understand is inherently different in intent or character from sitting
> > in order to understand. Why is intellectual understanding as an
> > intention better than sitting to follow Buddha's words and allow
> > discernment to arise? To the same extent that one can allow
> > intellectual understanding to arise and allow moments of direct
> > understanding, however weak, to arise, same can be said for sitting to
> > allow observation and discernment to take place. So what is the
> > inherent difference, assuming that one can have Right View or Wrong
> > View in either case?
> 
> I have the following view; let me know what you think.
> The reason that we need to listen to or read about dhammas, is that it 
> provides us with a level of understanding about the nature of
realities. 

So far I agree.

I 
> believe we are constantly interpreting our experiences; however there 
> is always some lingering doubt with regard to whether or not we really 
> understand. 

Agreed.

And this seems to reach out to and cover other aspects of 
> life. So for me, reading is done with the idea that there is a better 
> explanation about the nature of experience. 

this is understandable and a good explanation of how we reach out for
greater wisdom than we have. Thankfully, the Buddha is there.

Like most people, I had 
> been satisfied with all kinds of explanations evolving from wrong view. 
> The Buddha's teachings, particularly the Abhidhamma aspect of it, are 
> not only the most convincing explanation so far, but it points to
present 
> moment experiences which can to some degree be verified. It is not just 
> a theory that I need to project on to experiences, as every other 
> teaching has been. Here it is *understanding* which is accompanied by 
> a level of detachment, whereas other teachings and theories only 
> causes to be further caught in conceptualizations and always with a 
> degree of attachment.

Well I will say that the breakdown of the mechanism of consciousness
in Abhidhamma is certainly one of the most thorough, and gives a
strong basis for understanding what may constitute present realities.

> The understanding is `conceptual', but they point to this moment of 
> experience, and this already makes a world of a difference in terms of 
> confidence and ground for further understanding. And this is why 
> any "doing" in time and involving the illusory `self' is seen as being 
> misguided. 

Everything you say up to the last sentence is very clear and sensible.
The conclusion however does not seem to follow. You have not laid a
basis for saying that "any doing in time" must involve the illusory
"self", or that "any doing in time is therefore misguided. Again, it
would be the view or thought process that accompanies the doing in
time that would make it misguided or not misguided. This would go for
anything, even misguided sutta study. i know I am horribly repeating
this point over and over again, but it is the point to be dealt with i
think.

> But what about paying attention now? Well, when the idea comes to the 
> mind about paying attention to the momentary phenomena, even this is 
> an `idea', a concept "about" now. The moment has already fallen away, 
> but we want to catch it. What dominates at this point is the desire 
> to `see', and here we have planted the seed for the illusion of
result. If 
> our practice is all about `understanding', then it understands 
> what "appears" and does not seek more. If this happens only for a 
> fraction of a second, followed by the usual set of akusala, then we
must 
> understand that this is how it is and supposed to be, given the
unlimited 
> store of akusala. And what appears may be the `thought' about
realities, 
> and so this can be known too! 

There is absolutely no reason why one cannot do all of the above in
meditation. the buddhist meditation I am familiar with from several
schools would have you do exactly what you describe: discern current
realities, and if an akusala thought process arises, just discern that
as well. the term "choiceless awareness" is even used in some
meditation practices.

> However because desire always points to something other than what is 
> the arising dhamma, this `thinking' will not be seen. Instead we have 
> been caught in the story which is the object of this thinking. And
this can 
> be thinking about thinking even. And with the expectation of seeing the 
> Tilakkhana and other characteristics, we will perceive a conceptual 
> expression of these. This is possible, just as we cannot deny that 
> objects don't last and beings are born and die, so too when thoughts, 
> feelings, sounds and so on appear to arise and subside, the knowledge 
> is formed. 
> However, this is not the development of panna, because this too is just 
> concept, though because it seems micro compared to the macro births 
> and deaths in the conventional world, if we mistake these as being the 
> actual perception of rise and fall of namas and rupas, then we are
going 
> to be fooled for a long time. 

Well I hate to say this, but it seems to me that this may be a very
great danger in the practice of Abhidhamma, which seems to give a very
good breakdown of realities in great detail and gives as its goal the
direct discerment of not only the object of citta but its accompanying
mechanisms and attributes. Isn't it a strong possibilty that we will
attempt to see all these things and constantly mistake an intellectual
object for a real one? Or at least keep trying to "capture" a real
object with our intellectual udnerstanding? And by the way, what is
the alternative? If we are not "fast" enough to catch the mechanism
taking place or to see a rupa up close with complete discernment, what
in fact are we doing in Abdhidhamma? Just reading and understanding?
If there is no "moment" in the practice in which reality is
discerned, there is little hope of activating the Noble Eightfold Path
or even getting close.

> And when one talks about `allowing things to happen' or `being without' 
> expectations, even these are ideas centered on self. The self can't 
> decide to be detached; this is the function of panna when on 
> understanding a dhamma, sees nothing to hold on to. Any such idea 
> about `letting go' and so on, is an instance of wrong view which does 
> not see that dhammas can't be held on to, to begin with. If panna
arises 
> and knows attachment for instance, it does not need to be told to `let 
> go'.
> 
> So how are the two different, reading and listening on the one hand, 
> and formal meditation and trying to catch realities on the other? 
> Intellectual understanding implies also that this is different from
direct 
> understanding of realities. It understands on this level that
realities arise 
> and fall in an instant. That sati and panna arises not because of any 
> concentrated activity, these being vague `conceptual ideas' formed as a 
> result of either not knowing intellectually about the nature of
realities 
> and/or sincerely believing that the Buddha taught such a practice.
As an 
> intended activity it approaches written words or sound without any 
> expectation of what these will convey. But more importantly what 
> is `understood' subsequently is seen as purely conceptual with no 
> thought that the `real' thing is known. Formal meditation does not 
> acknowledge this kind of distinction; it believes that it directly
knows 
> realities, when in fact it does not. 

I think meditation thinks that it intends to know realities, but does
not arrogantly assume that it does. I think you give too little
credit to the committed Buddhist meditator. He seems to be a kind of
very unschooled person who doesn't know the first thing about
Buddhism, whereas he could even be an Abhidhammika who also believes
in meditating, like Howard.

> And now I will leave it to you to figure out what the implications
of this 
> are. ;-)
> 
> This I think is enough for now. I may write more tomorrow. 
> 
> Metta,
> Sukin.

Thank you Sukin. I think we are into a very important and frustrating
area where the rubber meets the road so to speak. At the altar of
reality, we have to be willing to give up all our treasured notions. 
Perhaps I will wind up devoting myself to study, why you must take up
the meditation cushion -- just punishment for us both!! 

Best,
Robert
	
33077

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:25pm
Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Sukin (and Rob) -
> 
> In a message dated 5/11/04 5:54:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> sukinder@k... writes:
> 
> > I have the following view; let me know what you think.
> > The reason that we need to listen to or read about dhammas, is
that it 
> > provides us with a level of understanding about the nature of
realities.
> > 
> ----------------------------------------
> Howard:
> We don't know that for a fact. What it provides us with is a
level of 
> belief, as does any other theory.
> ----------------------------------------

check.

> I > 
> > believe we are constantly interpreting our experiences; however there 
> > is always some lingering doubt with regard to whether or not we
really 
> > understand. And this seems to reach out to and cover other aspects of 
> > life. So for me, reading is done with the idea that there is a better 
> > explanation about the nature of experience. Like most people, I had 
> > been satisfied with all kinds of explanations evolving from wrong
view. 
> > 
> ------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> The detailed picture painted by Abhidhamma is one of many 
> "explanations". For that matter, so is the picture painted by the
Sutta Pitaka, but what 
> is emphasized there is a training program that one may try in order
to "come 
> and see," directly, for oneself.
> -------------------------------------------

check.

> > The Buddha's teachings, particularly the Abhidhamma aspect of it, are 
> > not only the most convincing explanation so far, but it points to
present 
> > moment experiences which can to some degree be verified. It is not
just 
> > a theory that I need to project on to experiences, as every other 
> > teaching has been. Here it is *understanding* which is accompanied by 
> > a level of detachment, whereas other teachings and theories only 
> > causes to be further caught in conceptualizations and always with a 
> > degree of attachment.
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Here we are in agreement.
> ---------------------------------------------

me too, although I don't think it's totally exclusive.

> > The understanding is `conceptual', but they point to this moment of 
> > experience, and this already makes a world of a difference in
terms of 
> > confidence and ground for further understanding. And this is why 
> > any "doing" in time and involving the illusory `self' is seen as
being 
> > misguided. 
> > 
> -------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> There *must* be doing, whether we put 'doing' in quotes or
not. If 
> nothing special is done, then one is merely left with belief, and
belief will not 
> liberate.
> -------------------------------------------

thank you for making this point so succinctly. you seem clearer than
me these days, Howard. I'll have to go on a meditation retreat. : )

> > 
> > But what about paying attention now? Well, when the idea comes to the 
> > mind about paying attention to the momentary phenomena, even this is 
> > an `idea', a concept "about" now. The moment has already fallen away, 
> > but we want to catch it. What dominates at this point is the desire 
> > to `see', and here we have planted the seed for the illusion of
result.
> > 
> ------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> We have also planted the seed to be constantly mindful,
guarding the 
> senses, and not just playing an impossible game of "catch up". To be
mindful, 
> attentive, and clearly comprehending requires intention, effort, and
vigilence.
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> If > 
> > our practice is all about `understanding', then it understands 
> > what "appears" and does not seek more. If this happens only for a 
> > fraction of a second, followed by the usual set of akusala, then
we must 
> > understand that this is how it is and supposed to be, given the
unlimited 
> > store of akusala. And what appears may be the `thought' about
realities, 
> > and so this can be known too! 
> > 
> > However because desire always points to something other than what is 
> > the arising dhamma, this `thinking' will not be seen. Instead we have 
> > been caught in the story which is the object of this thinking. And
this can 
> > be thinking about thinking even. And with the expectation of
seeing the 
> > Tilakkhana and other characteristics, we will perceive a conceptual 
> > expression of these. This is possible, just as we cannot deny that 
> > objects don't last and beings are born and die, so too when thoughts, 
> > feelings, sounds and so on appear to arise and subside, the knowledge 
> > is formed. 
> > However, this is not the development of panna, because this too is
just 
> > concept, though because it seems micro compared to the macro births 
> > and deaths in the conventional world, if we mistake these as being
the 
> > actual perception of rise and fall of namas and rupas, then we are
going 
> > to be fooled for a long time. 
> > 
> ----------------------------------------
> Howard:
> If what you are saying here is that mentally rehearsing what is 
> supposed to be the nature of what one is observing is no substitute
for intent 
> observing, itself, then I agree.
> --------------------------------------

and intent observing must also take place, not just the rehearsal.

> > 
> > And when one talks about `allowing things to happen' or `being
without' 
> > expectations, even these are ideas centered on self. The self can't 
> > decide to be detached; this is the function of panna when on 
> > understanding a dhamma, sees nothing to hold on to. Any such idea 
> > about `letting go' and so on, is an instance of wrong view which does 
> > not see that dhammas can't be held on to, to begin with. If panna
arises 
> > and knows attachment for instance, it does not need to be told to
`let 
> > go'.
> > 
> > So how are the two different, reading and listening on the one hand, 
> > and formal meditation and trying to catch realities on the other? 
> > 
> -------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> When meditating, formally or otherwise, one doesn't (or
shouldn't) try 
> to "catch realities". One simply attends to the flow of experience,
with some 
> degree or other of restrictedness, and with as much intent, energy, 
> mindfulness, and attention as one can muster. With the cooperation
of other conditions, 
> this cultivates the mind, strengthening useful mental factors.
> -------------------------------------------

check.

> > Intellectual understanding implies also that this is different
from direct 
> > understanding of realities. It understands on this level that
realities 
> > arise 
> > and fall in an instant. That sati and panna arises not because of any 
> > concentrated activity, these being vague `conceptual ideas' formed
as a 
> > result of either not knowing intellectually about the nature of
realities 
> > and/or sincerely believing that the Buddha taught such a practice.
> > 
> ------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Please excuse my bluntness on this point, but I think this is 
> nonsense. The Buddha most assuredly taught practices for cultivating
the mind, and 
> sati and pa~n~na do not develop and strengthen randomly. Of course
"realities 
> arise 
> and fall in an instant," but they always arise and fall due to
conditions, 
> not randomly, and the Buddha most explicitly provided techniques for
us to 
> practice, genuine *actions* (!) to carry out, to cultivate such
conditions.
> -------------------------------------------

check.

> As an > 
> > intended activity it approaches written words or sound without any 
> > expectation of what these will convey. But more importantly what 
> > is `understood' subsequently is seen as purely conceptual with no 
> > thought that the `real' thing is known. Formal meditation does not 
> > acknowledge this kind of distinction; it believes that it directly
knows 
> > realities, when in fact it does not. 
> > 
> -----------------------------------
> Howard:
> Formal meditation does nothing of the sort - "it" does not
believe 
> that it "directly knows realities" or anything else. Formal
meditation is a 
> cultivating activity, pure and simple. The results will be what they
will be. The 
> proof is in the pudding. Ehipassika.
> ------------------------------------
> 
> > And now I will leave it to you to figure out what the implications
of this 
> > are. ;-)
> > 
> > This I think is enough for now. I may write more tomorrow. 
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Sukin.
> > 
> =========================
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 



Howard, 
I appreciate the clarity of your points. 

Best,
Robert Ep.
	
33078

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Sun May 16, 2004 11:29pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau"
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:

> -------------------
> S: > But today, I was reminded by Betty with regard to another 
> question of mine, about the need to have a `definite answer'. Why is 
> there not enough confidence to leave it all to sati and panna to 
> shed the light?
> ----------------------
> 
> So we should we stick to the curriculum? :-)
> 
> -------------------------
> S: > If there is no panna to know the fact now, at least we can 
> remember to have patience, courage and good cheer. ;-)
> ------------------------
> 
> I appreciate the reminder. And, of course, there is no self who can 
> have patience, courage and good cheer or even remember to have them. 
> So there is no obligation -- the Dhamma is a blessing, not a burden.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Ken H

This is really nicely put Ken. It is kind of....liberating. Thanks
for saying this.

Best,
Robert Ep.
	
33080

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 0:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Self-views (was: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana)

Hi Suravira (Jack &RobM*, Andrew**),

--- Suravira <cbclifford@e...> wrote:
> [Suravira] If you wish, I can provide transcripts of the shows for 
> distribution within this group. It would likely prove to be a great 
> benefit to me to have feedback on the transcripts from participants 
> in this group (prior to final broadcast recording).
....
S: It would be interesting to see them and as you suggest, you may get
some useful feedback and of course you can pick and choose what feedback
to take not of;-). I’ve no idea how long your transcripts are, but if the
segments are more than a couple of pages, I suggest you break them into
different posts as they’re more likely to be read and commented on that
way.

*Jack, I’m sure we’d all be interested to read your article on Dana too. I
agree that RobM’s summary contained a wealth of useful info. Again, if
yours is a long one like his, I’d suggest breaking it into a few
manageable chunks spread over a few days or even weeks as many people just
scroll through posts quickly and miss a lot otherwise.
....
> [Suravira] Yes, whatever the date or culture, the same 20 must be 
> understood and eradicated. The challenge when sharing the profound 
> and subtle wisdom contained within the Brahmajala Sutta is 
> expressing it in a manner that does not defile it - by that I mean 
> avoiding the cultivation of further or ancilliary false views that 
> arise in the audience member in response to the 20 sakkaya-ditthi.
......
S: Yes, it is a challenge which I think very much depends on our own
(limited) understanding. “Now, householder, as to those divers views that
arise in the world,.....and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the
Brahmajaala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if
the personality view exists not, they do not exist.” (S.1V.7.3).

Btw, do you have a copy of B.Bodhi’s translation of the sutta and
commentaries? It’s a wonderful text from the BPS. **Andrew, do you have
it?

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33081

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:31am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 )

Hi Htoo & All,

I found your two ‘Hetu Paccaya Initiation’ extracts 1 and 2 with your
extra explanations to be clear and helpful. The format and length were
just right and they were easier to ‘digest’. Please keep up the
Initiations for us average folk here;-).

Some of your comments reminded me of these from CMA (ed by B.Bodhi),
Compendium of the Miscellaneous, Guide to #5:

‘Analysis of roots: In this section all types of consciousness are
classified by way of their concomitant ‘hetus’ or ‘roots’. In the Suttas
the word ‘hetu’ is used in the general sense of cause or reason
(kaara.na). There it is synonymous with the word ‘paccaya’, condition,
with which it is often conjoined, and it applies to any phenomenon that
functions as a cause or reason for other things. In the Abhidhamma,
however, ‘hetu’ is used exclusively in the specialized sense of root
(‘muula), and it is restricted in application to six mental factors
representing ethically significant qualities.

“Formally defined, a root is a mental factor which establishes firmness
and stability in the cittas and cetasikas with which it is associated. 
for it is said that those cittas that possess roots are firm and stable,
like trees, while those that are rootless are weak and unstable, like moss
(Vism XV11,70).”
*****
S: I’d just like to add a couple of further comments:
1)
--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: > 

> Adosa is a cetasika. It is non-hurting nature. When we want people 
> healthy we have adosa cetasika. This can be seen in case of parents 
> who have children and who do not have any disease. But parent still 
> have non-hurting mind adosa on their children as 'may they be 
> healthy'. Adosa can also be called metta. But adosa will be much more 
> appropriate for any case.
....
S: I think that by your last sentence you are meaning to stress that adosa
has a wider meaning. While it may appear as metta when the proximate cause
is seeing beings as lovable, adosa does not necessarily have beings as
object and there is not always metta when the cittas are sobhana
(beautiful). On the other hand, adosa is one of the 19 sobhana cetasikas
that always arise with sobhana cittas. For example, if there is awareness
of visible object or patience with unpleasant objects, there is
non-aversion (adosa) present. Again from CMA, Compendium of Mental
Factors, Guide to #5:

“Non-hatred (adosa): Non-greed has the characteristic of lack of ferocity,
or of non-opposing. its function is to remove annoyance, or to remove
fever, and its manifestation is agreeableness. Non-hatred comprises such
positive virtues as loving-kindness, gentleness, amity, friendliness,
etc.”
*****
2)> Vipaka cittas 
> arise in both arahats and non-arahats. But kiriya cittas arise only 
> in arahats. 
.....
S: I think that here you are referring to the kiriya cittas in the javana
processes of the arahant which take the place of kusala and akusala
cittas. As you said, they are ‘without any kamma potential’. Of course
there are other kiriya cittas in both the arahant and non-arahant: i.e the
asobhana kiriya cittas which are the pa~nca-dvaaraavajjana-citta (five
sense door adverting consciousness), the mano-dvaaraavajjana-citta (mind
door adverting consciousness) and the hasituppaada citta (smile producing
consciousness) just in the arahant. Of course these are ahetuka (without
roots) and I think you were referring in context to just the kiriya cittas
with roots in arahants.

When we were last in Bangkok we were discussing more about rebirth
consciousness with no roots, two roots and three roots. Perhaps you can
discuss it further. A human being can be born with rebirth consciousness 
which is ahetuka (rootless) or accompanied by two roots (alobha and adosa)
or 3 roots (+amoha). Insight can only be developed for those born with 3
roots.

Nina gives more detail in her book, ADL, ch11, ‘Different Types of
Pa.tisandhi Citta’. Even if the rebirth consciousness (and all subsequent
bhavanga cittas and the cuti citta - death consciousness) are not
accompanied by these beautiful roots, 
these cittas are still kusala vipaka (results of good deeds). These people
have various defects from conception such as blindness or deafness. Only
one kind of rebirth consciousness is akusala vipaka and it only arises in
woeful planes which include the animal plane, the peta plane, the asura
plane and the hell planes. These akusala vipaka cittas (rebirth and
subsequent bhavanga and cuti citta) are also ahetuka (without roots). I
hope I’ve got all that right.

So what was being stressed was that in the human realm, there are only a
very few kinds of akusala vipaka (I think just the 5 sense-door
experiencing consciousness, and the following receiving and investigating
consciousness, all of which are ahetuka and may be kusala or akusala
vipaka). On the contrary, kusala cittas bring many kinds of results, with
and without roots. Again, I find it helpful as it’s a reminder of how very
few and brief the moments of akusala vipaka are and how ‘magnified’ they
are by the subsequent akusala cittas in the javana process.

Htoo, now I’ve also written a compact post with far too much detail but
I’ve found it helpful to reflect further and I thank you for this.

I’ll look forward to any of your comments or corrections and to your
further hetu paccaya initiation series.

Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33082

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] A Wandering Mind

Hi Larry (Sukin & Ken H)

I meant to say that what you wrote below (to Michelle) rang many bells and
I agreed with all your comments:

--- LBIDD@w... wrote: 
> Recently I have been taking thinking as an object of contemplation. I
> see that I am attached to thinking. I like to figure things out and see
> things in a new way and I like to anticipate any problems I might have
> in my day and solve those problems in my mind. This attachment
> invariably leads to anger and unpleasant feeling when things don't work
> out as I had hoped. The fault is not so much with the thinking but
> rather with the attachment to thinking. This attachment is greedy,
> craving pleasant feeling which never lasts and always wants more. Plus
> there is a certain amount of fear; what will I do if I don't think??? I
> might make a mistake, fail somehow, or, worse still, become bored. All
> of these fears come with nothing but painful feeling. The only solution
> to all this fear is just to let go of it. Be here with whatever arises.
....
Once when K.Sujin was visiting me in England, we were taking a walk in Kew
Gardens as I recall. I was asking what I thought were rather profound
questions and I recall her saying: “Khun Sarah, you think too much.” It
rather stopped me in my track and had a big impact on me. I had thought
the Dhamma needed to all be thought and thought about and I’m sure there
was (and still is) a lot of attachment and fear involved as you suggest.
But as Sukin and Ken H have been discussing too, thinking about thinking
is not the same as awareness of thinking. K.Sujin didn’t mean that I
should try to think less (it’s conditioned just as it is already), but was
encouraging me (or rather sati) to be aware of thinking momentarily,
instead of clinging to it and having some idea that there could be any
development by thinking on and on about various concepts. Just a moment of
awareness of this or any other reality is so very precious and really is
like a very magical healing balm .

Slowly understanding can begin to know the difference between such
moments with and without awareness and again this is different from
conceptually considering and trying to work it all out. I think again this
is the point that Sukin was making after his discussion with K.Sujin in
which she was stressing the attachment involved when he was ‘wanting to
get the facts right’;-). As he said, ‘lobha is all the time ready to lead
us off-track’. 

Thank you again for your kind comments above which resonated so much with
my experience.

Metta,

Sarah
========


	
33083

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 2:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Christine,

--- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote: > Hello Sarah, and
all,
> 
> How lovely that you found the ear-ring. :-) It is NOT hot and sunny 
> here - I'm glad you are having days on the beach. Here, the human 
> has a head cold, and the dog has the heater. (He has arthritis). 
> Does the kusala from the good deed outweigh occasionally regretting 
> of it? :-) :-) 
....
:-) it’s at this time of year for the next few months that we’d happily
trade some sun, heat and humidity for a few cool breezes. And yes, being
very susceptible to gain and loss of material goods like ear-rings, it did
put me in a rather good mood. Perhaps Victor can give me some reminders
about being ensnared by such attachments.....
.....
> 
> Yes, that's the post by Jon that I was thinking of. Good one, 
> hey! 
> 
> In the quote to Victor, there is the line - "He has severed 
> craving, thrown off the fetters, and -- through the right 
> penetration of conceit -- has made an end of suffering & stress." 
....
S: In note 50 to the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl we are told that ‘The
‘penetration of conceit’ (maanaabhisamaya) means seeing ‘through’ conceit
and abandoning it, which are both accomplished simultaneously by the path
of arahantship.’
.....
> Conceit seems to play a large role in everything - even in my 
> hesitating to ask just how, in case you or RobK has explained it in 
> detail before, and I've not retained the memory. :-) Is it that we 
> are only irritated, fearful etc. if we, firstly, have a sense that 
> there is a self, and that the self we feel we have is important?
...
S: I like your example of conceit playing its large role at every turn,
‘even in my hesitating to ask.....’. Good example. When we feel
embarrassed or shown up in some way or our ignorance or other kilesa are
on display, conceit causes the concern and unhappy feelings on account of
the importance we place on our self-image I think. 

We are concerned with ourselves and how we are perceived at these times.
The banner is flying. It is this attachment with conceit that is so easily
followed by the irritation or fear you mention when the image is dented. I
think examples of hesitating to ask for help are good ones. Of course
there may be other more noble motives at any time for the hesitation, such
as not wanting to trouble someone for example. But,I know for myself too,
that conceit comes into the equation very often. I can almost feel myself
blushing sometimes when I ask a question in Bangkok that I know I’ve asked
many times before (and also not retained the answer) or when I read over a
post I’ve written and find lots of typos for example. 

Of course, when we are irritated, it is bound to be conditioned by
attachment to self and our sense experiences. Nina mentioned the example
K.Sujin gives about feeling tired even. It doesn’t mean there is
necessarily and wrong self-view involved at these times however. A
sotapanna has a long way to go until attachment with and without conceit
is eradicated, but no self-view (sakkaya ditthi).

Again, I think it’s only awareness with understanding that can know at any
moment what the reality is and whether it’s just attachment to oneself or
conceit or some kind of self view. Obviously from your ‘hesitating to ask’
example, the characteristic of conceit is becoming apparent and we can
begin to see how very common it is. As you also said in your other post,
different people have different reactions to the same phenomena and we can
only know for ourselves what the truth at any moment really is.

Does this help at all? Please don’t hestitate to raise questions any
number of times. You do us all a favour. 

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33084

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/17/04 12:50:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> 
> Breaths/in-&-out breathings are inconstant, dukkha, not self, and it 
> is to be seen as it actually is thus: inconstant, dukkha, not 
> self. 
> 
> Breaths/in-&-out breathings are bodily fabrications, and bodily 
> fabrications are conditioned, not unconditioned.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
===========================
I understand that you don't make the actual-versus-conventional 
distinction. I do make that distinction. I understand what you say above as true, 
but you and I don't view it in exactly the same way. So it is.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33085

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 )

Typo:

--- Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:

>Again from CMA, Compendium of Mental
> Factors, Guide to #5:
> 
> “Non-hatred (adosa): Non-greed has the characteristic of ....
.....
should read:

"Non-hatred (adosa): Non-hatred has the characteristic of......

	
33086

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Rob Ep (& Howard),

--- Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> wrote: >
> 
> thank you for making this point so succinctly. you seem clearer than
> me these days, Howard. I'll have to go on a meditation retreat. : )
.....
....Or hang around more regularly on DSG like Howard does :-)

Metta,

Sarah
======

	
33087

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 7:15am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

The purpose of my post was to discusses the passage from the
Anapanasati Sutta that you quoted in your earlier post. The only
'issue' here, as far as I'm concerned, is the meaning of that
utterance by the Buddha. As you may recall, the same passage has
been mentioned a number of times by different members lately, so it
is quite topical.

My comments are directed to the meaning of the passage in general,
and are not meant to be a response to your statement in particular
(although it seems to me that our reading of the passage differs). 
As I say, the passage has been the subject of comments from a number
of different members lately, and these have no doubt played a part in
my present interest in the matter.

I'd be very happy to hear your views on this general area. Hoping to
hear back from you soon.

Jon

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Let me respond in context.
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
> <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> > Victor, and Rob Ep
> > 
> > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered
> in
> > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue
> has
> > been raised by him in recent posts.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is the issue in discussion?
> 
> 


	
33088

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 7:48am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

So what does the passage 

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of 
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, 
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to 
their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & 
pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. 
The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring 
clear knowing & release to their culmination."

mean, given the context that you provided?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> The purpose of my post was to discusses the passage from the
> Anapanasati Sutta that you quoted in your earlier post. The only
> 'issue' here, as far as I'm concerned, is the meaning of that
> utterance by the Buddha. As you may recall, the same passage has
> been mentioned a number of times by different members lately, so it
> is quite topical.
> 
> My comments are directed to the meaning of the passage in general,
> and are not meant to be a response to your statement in particular
> (although it seems to me that our reading of the passage differs). 
> As I say, the passage has been the subject of comments from a 
number
> of different members lately, and these have no doubt played a part 
in
> my present interest in the matter.
> 
> I'd be very happy to hear your views on this general area. Hoping 
to
> hear back from you soon.
> 
> Jon
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > Let me respond in context.
> > 
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
> > <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> > > Victor, and Rob Ep
> > > 
> > > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I 
answered
> > in
> > > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue
> > has
> > > been raised by him in recent posts.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > What exactly is the issue in discussion?
	
33089

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch I, no 1

Perseverance in Dhamma,
Chapter I, no 1. 

Respect to the Buddha

The venerable Bhikkhu asked Acharn Sujin: ³Where can I find a statue of the
Buddha in the Foundation building so that I can pay respect to the Buddha. I
went around looking everywhere for a statue, but I could not find it. In
every temple all over the world one can see Buddha statues, and people
attach great importance to them.²
Acharn Sujin answered: ²It may happen that people who attach importance to a
Buddha statue are inclined to believe that the Buddha will protect them when
they pay respect. They may be attached to ceremonies. But, the understanding
of the teachings is what is most important in our life. The Buddha gave us
his teachings so that we can develop understanding of all phenomena of our
life and eradicate defilements completely. We actually pay respect to the
Buddha at any time we understand the teachings. In the Foundation there is
no a statue, but relics of the Buddha are being kept here. An image of the
Buddha or his relics can remind us of his excellent qualities, of his
wisdom, his purity and his compassion.²
The venerable Bhikkhu asked whether one can be sure about the relic being a
genuine relic of the Buddha. Acharn Sujin answered that this does not
matter. We may wonder about it and speculate about it, but what really
matters is the kusala citta that pays respect to the Buddha. We can pay
respect with understanding of his teachings and this will condition great
confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. The venerable Bhikkhu
remarked that in this world there is only a very small group of people who
value the benefit of developing right understanding of the Buddha¹s
teachings. Acharn Sujin answered that people are inclined to follow
tradition, but that it takes courage being a real buddhist. The Buddha
showed the Path leading to the realization of the arising and falling away
of conditioned realities. We need perseverance to continue developing this
Path. 
The venerable Bhikkhu showed us a book with texts he used for the
performance of ceremonies that were requested by people who visited his
temple. He said that people are greatly attached to rituals and that they
liked to hear recitations of the Pali texts, even though they did not
understand the meaning of the texts. He recited for us the first sentence of
the ³Måtikå², the Summary of the Dhammasangani, the first Book of the
Abhidhamma:
³kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyåkata dhamma².
Our whole life is contained in these words. Avyåkata, indeterminate, are all
dhammas not included in kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. It comprises:
vipåkacitta (citta that is result of kamma) and the accompanying cetasikas
(mental factors), kiriyacitta (inoperative citta) and the accompanying
cetasikas, rúpa (physical phenomena) and nibbåna. The simplicity of this
text is
very impressive, and it is so deep.
When we are sick, all kinds of rúpas and vipåkacittas are arising and
falling away and these are included in avyåkata dhamma. Hardness or heat
may impinge on the bodysense and then painful feeling may arise. Then our
reactions to what we experience are included in kusala dhamma or akusala
dhamma. We are worried about the sickness of others, we have many problems
in life regarding our work or our relationship with others. We are absorbed
in concepts and on account of these, moments of happiness and misery
alternate. When it is time to depart from this life all these stories will
be forgotten. Where is "our important personality"? There are only dhammas
just lasting for a moment and then gone. They are only kusala dhamma,
akusala dhamma, avyåkata dhamma. This can comfort us in times of sickness
and misery. As Acharn Sujin often says: ³Most important in life is
understanding reality. Otherwise all phenomema of life are still ŒI¹, and
the cycle of birth and death will continue.²
*****
Nina.
	
33090

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma

Dear all,
I shall post in small sections at a time my Dhamma Report of six chapters on
the discussions held in Thailand, Jan./Febr this year. Later on I shall send
this text to Zolag Web.
Nina.
	
33091

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am
Subject: Vis 78 and Tiika

Vis 78 and Tiika

Intro to Vis. XIV, 78. This section deals first with the rupas that are
physical base and doorway in a sense-door process. A physical base, vatthu,
is the place where a particular citta originates. Seeing originates at the
eye-base, for example. The doorway is the means through which citta
experiences an object. The eyesense is the doorway for citta that
experiences visible object impinging on that doorway. Kamma produces the
sense organs that are bases as well as doorways for the cittas concerned and
also the heart-base. These rupas produced by kamma are conditions for citta,
they condition it by way of dependence-condition (nissaya-paccaya).
It may seem that we can see and hear at the same time, but the study of the
Abhidhamma can help us to understand that seeing and hearing arise dependent
each on a different base and experiencing a different object through the
appropriate dooway. When we have more understanding of the conditions for
seeing, hearing and the other cittas arising in a process, we shall
understand the meaning of anatta. There is no self in the experiencing. We
should not forget that the goal of our study is the understanding of the
present moment. 
As to bodily intimation and speech intimation which are not concrete matter
but an alteration in the elements, these are originated by citta. They are
doorways of kamma. Kamma can be performed through body, speech and mind.
When we stretch out our hand to give, there is kusala kamma through the
body-door. When we speak falsehood there is akusala kamma through speech. We
read in the Expositor (p.1220: <The action of one speaking falsehood, etc.,
by a sign of the hand is an act of speech, but the door is that of the body.
Thus an immoral act of speech also arises in the body-door.>

Text Vis. 78. Here, however, what is called materiality of the heart is
'physical
basis, not door' (see DhsA. 82f.); the two intimations are 'door, not
physical basis'; sensitive matter is 'both physical basis and door'; the
rest are 'neither physical basis nor door'. So it is of four kinds
according to the physical basis tetrad.

Tiika 78: English:(See my remarks interspersed and the note below. For
Pali-English scroll down.)

Consciousness and mental factors abide here, they occur here, thus, it is a
base, 
materiality that has become a support (base) for the cittas that are
connected with it.
This is sixfold. 
N: The five sense-bases that are bases for the sense-cognitions and the
heartbase that is base for all other cittas.
Text: Here the materiality of the heartbase is only a base for mind-element
and mind-consciousness element.
N: Mind-element (mano-dhaatu): adverting-consciousness (first citta in a
sense-door process) and the two types of receiving-consciousness,
sampaticchana-citta, one being kusala vipaaka-citta and one akusala
vipaaka-citta, arising after the sense-cognitions.
Mind-consciousness-element (mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu): all cittas, except the
five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as
mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as
well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely,
rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas, dying-consciousness.

Text: It is not a doorway for those (cittas) that have another support such
as in the case of the eye.

N: The heart-base is not the mind-door. The mind-door is the last
bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door process begins.

Text: In as far as the eye etc. is concerned, this is a doorway for the
receiving-consciousness and so on in the process, but this is not so in the
case of the heartbase.
Therefore it is said: ³Here, however, what is called materiality of the
heart is physical basis, not door²
The two intimations are doorways, because they are the doors of kamma.

N: Kamma can be performed by the doorways of body, speech and mind. Bodily
intimation and speech intimation are the doorways of kusala kamma and
akusala kamma. However, kamma through the body can also be performed without
bodily intimation *.
Text: They are not base because there is no citta arising in dependence on
them. 
The materiality that are the sense organs are base for seeing-consciousness
and so on, which are thus dependent on that base itself,
and doorway for the receiving-consciousness and so on that are dependent on
another base. 


N: A sense organ such as eyesense is base as well as doorway for seeing. The
eyesense functions as doorway for all the cittas of the eye-door process,
such as receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness and so on. The
doorway is the means through which they experience visible object. However,
eyesense it is not the physical base for them, they are dependent on the
heart-base. 

Text: The remaining twentyone rupas on the contrary are neither doorway nor
base. 

N: The five sense-bases, the heart-base and the two intimations are eight
kinds. The remaining rupas among the twentyeight rupas are thus twentyone
rupas.

***** 
* Note on kamma performed through the body: Translated from the Thai, Dhamma
Issues: <We should carefully consider the different cases of kamma performed
through the body. The groups of rúpa originating from citta that motivates
kamma through the body may be without viññatti rúpa (bodily intimation). In
that case the undecad of lightness (a group of eleven rúpas) arises; this
group includes the three vikåra rúpas (rupas of changeability) arising
together with the four great Elements, and then the Element of Wind,
våyo-dhåtu, can condition motion. However, the vikåra rúpas are not the
doorway. Whereas when viññatti rúpa is the doorway of kamma, this happens
when an intention is displayed through the body which is in that case the
condition for the performing of kamma.
With regard to the section on killing, it has not been explained in the
texts that there must necessarily be a wish to display a meaning by means of
bodily intimation. The types of kamma performed through the body are
diverse. Thus, the citta that motivates kamma performed through the body
does not always produce kåya viññatti, bodily intimation. When it does
produce kåya viññatti, this rúpa is the doorway of kamma, for example, when
a command to kill is given through the body. >
*****
Pali English text:

Vis 78 Pali: 
ya.m panettha hadayaruupa.m naama, ta.m vatthu na dvaara.m.
vi~n~nattidvaya.m dvaara.m na vatthu. pasaadaruupa.m vatthu ceva dvaara~nca.
sesa.m neva vatthu nadvaaranti eva.m vatthaadicatukkavasena catubbidha.m.

Tiika: Vasanti ettha cittacetasikaa pavattantiiti vatthu,
cittata.msampayuttaana.m aadhaarabhuuta.m ruupa.m.
Consciousness and mental factors abide here, they occur here, thus, it is a
base, 
materiality that has become a support (base) for the cittas that are
connected with it.

Ta.m pana chabbidha.m.
This is sixfold. 

Tattha hadayaruupa.m vatthu eva manodhaatumanovi~n~naa.nadhaatuuna.m
nissayabhaavato. 
Here the materiality of the heartbase is only a base for mind-element and
mind-consciousness element.

Na dvaara.m a~n~nanissayaana.m cakkhaadi viya.
It is not a doorway for those (cittas) that have another support such as in
the case of the eye.

Yathaa hi cakkhaadiini sampa.ticchanaadiina.m pavattiyaa dvaara.m honti, na
eva.m hadayavatthu.
In as far as the eye etc. is concerned, this is a doorway for the
receiving-consciousness and so on in the process, but this is not so in the
case of the heartbase.

Tena vutta.m ³ya.m panettha hadayaruupa.m naama, ta.m vatthu, na dvaaran²ti.
Therefore it is said: ³Here, however, what is called materiality of the
heart is physical basis, not door²

Vi~n~nattidvaya.m dvaara.m kammadvaarabhaavato.
The two intimations are doorways, because they are the doors of kamma.

Tannissitassa cittuppaadassa abhaavato na vatthu.
They are not base because there is no citta arising in dependence on them.

Pasaadaruupa.m vatthu ceva attasannissitassa cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadikassa,
The materiality that are the sense organs are base for seeing-consciousness
and so on, which are thus dependent on that base itself,

dvaara~nca a~n~nanissitassa sampa.ticchanaadikassa.
and doorway for the receiving-consciousness and so on that are dependent
another base. 

Sesa.m ekaviisatividha.m ruupa.m vuttavipariyaayato neva vatthu na ca
dvaara.m.
The remaining twentyone rupas on the contrary are neither doorway nor base.
*******
Nina.
	
33092

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:23am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi Victor,
I like this.
<As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is
> calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned..>
The recollection of the Buddha is one of the four meditations for every
occasion during the day. (the others are metta, foulness of the body,
death). Yes we can often recollect the Buddha, such as when I visit my
father and have sometimes a hard time. I think of the Buddha. Or when
studying the teachings and sometimes there is a moment of beginning of
awareness. It is thanks to the Buddha. It can come very naturally.
Nina. 
op 17-05-2004 01:31 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...:
> Anguttara Nikaya III.70
> Muluposatha Sutta
There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects
> the Tathagata, thus: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly
> self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an
> expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those
> people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings,
> awakened, blessed.' As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is
> calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned...
	

	


33093

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:50am
Subject: Re: [dsg] A Wandering Mind

Sarah: "Just a moment of awareness of this or any other reality is so 
very precious and really is like a very magical healing balm ."

Hi Sarah,

I've been thinking the same thing today. A moment of awareness of any 
kind of panic is sort of a protection against that panic, magical 
armor. As you say there is no need to figure things out, analyze, or 
even conceptually identify. The panic may continue to be unpleasant 
but in the context of that awareness it is obviously not me. Just a 
little flicker of awareness now and then really is magical. 

Larry
	
33094

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Vis 78 and Tiika

Hi Nina,

When kamma is performed through the body without intimation what is 
the door? Why isn't life faculty included? Can we say doors only 
accomodate one way traffic? The five senses passively opening in and 
the two intimations plus body (not body sensitivity) actively opening 
out? What delimits in and out? space? When I focus my eye on a 
particular thing is that kamma performed through the body? Are body 
parts (hands, feet etc.) produced by temperature rather than kamma? 

Larry
----------------------------
N: Note on kamma performed through the body: Translated from the 
Thai, Dhamma
Issues: <We should carefully consider the different cases of kamma 
performed
through the body. The groups of rúpa originating from citta that 
motivates
kamma through the body may be without viññatti rúpa (bodily 
intimation). In
that case the undecad of lightness (a group of eleven rúpas) arises; 
this
group includes the three vikåra rúpas (rupas of changeability) arising
together with the four great Elements, and then the Element of Wind,
våyo-dhåtu, can condition motion. However, the vikåra rúpas are not 
the
doorway. Whereas when viññatti rúpa is the doorway of kamma, this 
happens
when an intention is displayed through the body which is in that case 
the
condition for the performing of kamma.
With regard to the section on killing, it has not been explained in 
the
texts that there must necessarily be a wish to display a meaning by 
means of
bodily intimation. The types of kamma performed through the body are
diverse. Thus, the citta that motivates kamma performed through the 
body
does not always produce kåya viññatti, bodily intimation. When it does
produce kåya viññatti, this rúpa is the doorway of kamma, for 
example, when
a command to kill is given through the body. >
*****
	
33095

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:44pm
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry

Hello Andrew, et al

> [Andrew] ... But are you 
> saying that there is something *more than* the 5 khandhas in the 
> present moment? 

[Suravira] No, that assertion is not being proposed.

> [Andrew] Seeing doubt for what it is can be conducive to the 
arising 
> of wisdom. But doubt itself is proximately caused by unwise 
> attention. 

[Suravira] In as much as doubt (in the efficacy of the dharma) and 
false views of individuality are resolved upon stream entry, doubt 
can motivate one to engage in the discipline of bhavana with the aim 
of directly realizing the dharma of anatta. In a manner of speaking 
one makes a strong determination to resolve their doubt and 
(spiritual) ignorance related to views of individuality. That strong 
determination aids in one's commitment to the discipline of bhavana.

> You mention "practice" as a noun. Don't you think that, 
> in English, it carries heavy connotations of *someone* 
practising? 

[Suravira] Practice is more accurately understood to be a function. 

> I'd be interested to hear how you explain to seekers this idea of 
> action but no actor ie anatta.
> 

[Suravira] I do not offer a teaching of "action but no actor." Not 
wishing to change the subject, but that idea, or slogan, is another 
catch phrase that does (in my view) a dis-service to disseminating 
the dharma of anatta. Moreover, that slogan frequently flies back at 
teachers of the dharma when teachings on karma are offered - in the 
worst cases it is used as an excuse for not assuming responsiblity 
for the choices one makes and for the consequences that arise from 
those choices.

I see the catch phrases of "action but no actor", "no-self", "not 
self" etc, as tactical errors that have occured as the dharma of 
anatta has been distributed into contemporary western civilization. 
In my view, this dharma of anatta can be spoken to directly, and it 
is best to abandon such slogans since they add nothing constructive 
to the mix.

Andrew, because of your earnest inquiries, what follows is an 
extract of one of my TV scripts - one that focuses on anatta 
(copyright is retained by the show's producer) - it is offered for 
your consideration:

...

The Buddha negated false views of individuality, false views of the 
personal perception of khandhas. He did not negate individuality. He 
did not negate the existential postulate that a personal perception 
of life is experienced. He did, however, negate false views of 
individuality. These are two very important points to clarify when 
presenting to Americans Buddha's negation of false views of 
individuality. If your dhamma talk, given to Americans, negates 
soul, then the American will infer that you are negating mind as 
well, which they will conclude as meaning that you are negating 
their personal perception of their life experience – that you are 
negating self.

So, we need to be mindful to guard our speech so that we do not 
present dhamma as negating individuality, that we do not present 
dhamma as negating the reality of the experience of the perception 
of life – the reality of the perception of khandhas.

Now let's consider the first fetter from the context of Samadhi and 
from stream entry. To support this effort, a minimum amount of 
western psychology will be introduced. 

As an aside, sila can be viewed to be a conscious intention to 
restrain and purify our thoughts, feelings, words and actions in 
order to cultivate a personal psychological base for cultivating 
Samadhi.

Normally, our awareness is fully absorbed within the personal stream 
of thoughts, feelings, sensations and memories. This propensity of 
awareness to be so absorbed is extremely strong and robust. This 
natural absorption of awareness is a necessity because we are social 
creatures. We each need to figure out how to survive and live. No 
exceptions to that rule are granted. So, this natural absorption of 
awareness within the stream of our personal khandhas is a Universal 
adaptation by all human beings – by all senscient beings, on this 
planet. Psychology has come to call this natural adaptation ego – 
ego with a big E.

To ensure our survival, nature selected to create, cultivate and 
maintain ego without need of any conscious effort on our part. As a 
consequence, our personal ego isn't of the highest quality – nature 
did not need ego to attain more than its normal level. Ego only 
needs to be of sufficient quality to ensure our survival to 
reproductive age, and thereby ensure the continuation of the species.

Our ego does not develop in a vacuum. Through the unconscious 
imitation of others around us, it collected the raw materials needed 
to fabricate its structure. When we encounter wholesome objects or 
events, we fabricate a representation of it and link to it our 
feeling about that object or event representation. When we encounter 
unwholesome objects or events, we do the exact same thing.

In that we accomplished such actions without aware effort, they 
reside within the anusaya, where they remain until suitable causes 
present themselves, thereby stimulating the arising of corresponding 
thoughts, feelings and memories. Typically, they arise from anusaya 
into pariyutthàna (nasal n). It is within pariyutthana that our 
awareness is merged with and absorbed into the arising thoughts, 
feelings and memories. In a manner of speaking, awareness is thereby 
enslaved in that stream. 

When these thoughts, feelings and memories pass from pariyutthana to 
arise to vãtikkama, they motivate bodily and verbal actions. If what 
reaches vãtikkama is wholesome, then our bodily and verbal actions 
are wholesome. If what reaches vãtikkama is unwholesome, and if we 
are not mindful, then our bodily and verbal actions are unwholesome. 
The Buddha described these unwholesome thoughts, feelings and 
memories as hindrances and fetters. Please note that even though 
they may not be activated in a given moment; they persist within 
anusaya – well past the point in time of stream entry. This is a 
critically important fact to remember when investigating the jhànas. 
However, they can be atrophied by mindfulness and held at abeyance 
by Samadhi.

So if we look at this process of ego fabrication generically and 
consider only one instance of either an object or event 
representation production, we can see that there is a generic triad 
that is the fundamental constituent of ego. There is a subject and 
there is an object. There is a subject-object duality. Inherent in 
this duality is relationship – the sticky part of the duality. A 
relation always arises whenever a subject-object pair arises. The 
primary characteristic of this relation and what makes it sticky is 
its feeling – its emotion – which is in aspect pleasant, unpleasant 
or neutral.

Because of impermanence, ego structure is, fortunately, a dynamic, 
ever-adapting, mutually-interdependent, integrated, schema of 
triads – a collection of subject/object/feeling triads. 
Collectively, these triads constitute the conventional sense of 
self – of personal individuality.

This collection provides us with a sense of boundary within space 
and through time; a boundary that dissipates at stream entry – but 
which, gratefully, subsequently reconstitutes, thanks to kamma, as 
Samadhi wanes.

However, on the down side, this beautiful aspect of humanity, our 
awareness, can not reach its greatest level of development so long 
as it remains absorbed in our individuality – in our personal 
experience of thoughts, feelings, sensations and memories. To 
cultivate a higher development of awareness we take up the 
discipline of Samadhi.

When we cultivate Samadhi, we consciously choose a suitable and 
wholesome mind-object, and place our awareness on it – we fabricate 
a wholesome, neutral and unfettered triad. We aspire to penetrate 
that mind-object – to absorb or merge our awareness with it. 

Samadhi practice is, in a very practical sense, a means of producing 
a very high quality, minimalist, ego structure. Let's call it a 
supra-ego – ego with a very tiny e. Because it is wholesome, this 
supra-ego structure is distilled of any hindrance or fetter. It is 
the absolute, bear minimum, pared to the bone, ego structure with a 
single triad. It is a vehicle suited for the supra-mundane highway.

Now, when we try to cultivate awareness by taking up the discipline 
of Samadhi, why is it so incredibly hard to do the practice? Why is 
it so difficult to unfetter awareness from our personal stream of 
individuality, and place it on an object of our choosing? Why, after 
having placed our awareness on that object, is it so difficult to 
hold it on that object? 

The Buddha's explanation for these difficulties is contained within 
the teachings of the 5 hindrances and the 10 fetters. They are 
referred to as hindrances because they obscure and envelope 
awareness – they defile its luminous purity. On a personal level, 
they directly hamper our spiritual development and by so doing, 
impair our ability to verify if awareness is in reality luminous 
purity.

To gain insight into this nature of awareness, this luminous purity, 
we must practice Samadhi and manifest jhàna. The hindrances and 
fetters are barriers to our personal manifestation of jhana. To 
manifest jhàna, we must dismantle these barriers. To do that, we 
must become skilled in certain tools, techniques and methods.

If you prefer, you can think of hindrances and fetters as being like 
governors we place on an engine. With the governor in place, the 
full power of the engine can not be expressed.

However, we can cultivate Samadhi and unfetter awareness. We can 
learn to place awareness where we want to place it. We can learn to 
hold it on that point – for as long as we desire. And, we can learn 
to take it off that point and re-position it anywhere at will. 

By holding our awareness on the supra-ego, the awareness penetrates 
it, is absorbed in it, and the duality of subject and object 
evaporates … temporarily.

The art of merging awareness with the object of meditation is not 
mystical – nor unnatural … in any regard. Awareness is naturally 
merged and absorbed into mental-objects. The art is just mindfully 
utilizing this natural propensity of awareness to merge and absorb. 
However, in the art of Samadhi, because of the minimalist nature of 
the produced triad, when the merging occurs awareness is not 
enslaved or oppressed … as it is with Ego. In distinct difference to 
Ego, the Samadhi triad (supra-ego) is so minimalist that it is not 
capable of providing awareness with any semblance of bounded space. 
Therefore, when awareness penetrates and merges with the Samadhi 
triad awareness enters the stream as clear luminosity – with no 
semblance of bounded space and therefore, no semblance of a 
conventional sense of self. Poetically, this transition in states of 
awareness is expressed as `opening the wisdom eye.'

Now, in most cases, when the wisdom eye opens, it blinks shut 
relatively quickly. The reason why this is so is that, for almost 
everyone, shortly after this transition in the state of awareness, 
fear and anxiety arise quite naturally. After all, perception 
habitually occurs within the boundary of the conventional sense of 
self. And, it is really quite alarming to experience awareness that 
is not bounded by space … that is not enslaved by the Ego structure.

Let me be clear about this point. The wisdom eye opens temporarily 
and then shuts as the Ego structure re-consolidates.

The special energy produced by the body to support this transition 
in states of awareness will be spent, and you will likely not have 
enough of that energy left to dive back into the dhamma stream – to 
open the wisdom eyelid. But you will have enough reserve to practice 
mindfulness of the hindrances and fetters that will inevitably arise 
… be present … and dissipate.

And you will hold a valid view of individuality. And, you will be 
free of spiritual doubt regarding the clear, luminous, boundless 
nature of awareness. And, if you ever did believe that adherences to 
rules and rituals can bring purification of the defilements, you 
will abandon that fetter as well.

By way of advice, after the initial experience of the wisdom eye 
blink, the struggle continues. So, be on the lookout for màna, 
fetter number 8 – spiritual pride.

My hope is that we come to understand that, after all that hard 
work, only the tip of our big toe got wet in the dhamma stream.


....

The balance of the TV script will be available at a later point in 
time.

With metta,

Suravira
	
33096

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 10:30am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Do or not do something

In a message dated 5/13/04 12:23:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:
> Second, you ask what is unconditioned mind and self-determination. The
> Buddha 
> does talk about conditioned mind and unconditioned mind. 
....
S: I think the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbana. All other dhammas are
conditioned. Do you have anything else in mind? You mentioned that ‘one
can make decisions out of unconditioned mind’. I’d be glad if you’d 
elaborate as this is something new to me.
==============
Sarah and others (I would also be especially interested in comments from 
Howard and Steve as well as anyone else),

I don't know how my statement above translates into Abhidhamma language. I 
suspect it doesn't. My Zen work with koans centered around breaking through 
conditioning and answering from clear mind. I became convinced that one can do 
this without reaching full enlightenment.

Then, I switched to Thera and came across Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. BB was a Thai 
monk who, in my opinion, is the foremost Thera writer and thinker in the last 
century. BB taught that we might reach "partial" nibbana many times in a week. 
We don't stay there so it isn't nibbana or enlightenment. But, for that brief 
time, we get a taste of a life without suffering and without defilements. As 
we progress in our practice we have more and more of these moments. Then, 
eventually we might reach full enlightenment.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa makes distinctions in nibanna that might interest you. The 
first kind of nibanna he calls tadanga nibanna which is our natural state and 
might arise with help from favorable surroundings such as listening to Mozart 
or observing a sunset. It happens to us if we are open to it. The second kind 
he calls vikkhambhana nibanna which happens when we suppress defilements 
through our meditation. It is the same as tadanga nibanna except it is controlled 
through our practice. The third and highest kind of nibanna is samuccheda 
nibanna which happens when we completely uproot ignorance and fetters. This third 
form of nibanna unlike the other two is not dependent upon conditions. Once we 
/get there/, we never go back. 


BB sometimes broke loose of traditional interpretations of the suttas. But, 
his was always interpretations of what the Buddha taught not his own brand of 
Buddhism. I have looked at several references to nibbana and find that many of 
them can be interpreted in a way that accommodates this temporary nibbana. 
There is nothing in the suttas I could find that could not also only mean the 
traditional nibbana.

jack

Howard, I notice from my database that we traded emails on this subject in 
1997. How time flies.


	
33097

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 3:42pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Self-views (was: Not entering the Stream in Mahayana)

Hi Sarah,

> Btw, do you have a copy of B.Bodhi's translation of the sutta and
> commentaries? It's a wonderful text from the BPS. **Andrew, do you 
have
> it?
> 
[Suravira] No I do not have a sopy of B. Bodhi's translation and 
commentary. I will search for it.

With metta,
Suravira
	
33098

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 4:21pm
Subject: Dana & Sila TV Script 1

Sarah,

Thank you for your generous offer of submitting portions of my TV 
scripts on Dana & Sila to your Dhamma Study Group.

I have selected a extract that follows after the program series' 
introduction. It lays out the general game plan for the program 
series. If you judge its content to be unsuitable for this study 
group then let me know.

The producer of the TV series holds the copyright of the content 
that follows - it is not offered for general distribution to the 
public, instead it is offered to solicite constructive feedback from 
the members of this group.

Please understand that the writing is a transcript of spoken words 
intended for a TV audience. Moreover, repetition of the English 
meaning of Pali words is required to aid the audience in building 
their vocabulary of Pali words.

With Metta,
Suravira

...


Dharma-vinaya

The Buddha called the teaching he founded Dharma-vinaya, "the 
doctrine and discipline." The popular term for this religion is 
Buddhism; however, Buddhists call it the Dharma.

The teachings offered by the Buddha are a gradual teaching that has 
three pillars of practice: Dana, Sila and Bhavana. 

Dana is a Pali word that has many meanings. The meaning of Dana 
includes such ideas as generosity, charity and almsgiving. Dana: 
generosity, charity, almsgiving – is the most fundamental spiritual 
act a person or a community can engage in. As such, the practice of 
Dana is the cornerstone of all Buddhist practice and every Buddhist 
society. When the Buddha encountered a community for the first time, 
and the members of that community expressed a desire to be taught, 
he first transmitted to them the teachings on the discipline of 
Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving. 

Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving - enables us to co-create 
the fabric of a humane society through mutually interdependent, 
intimate, wholehearted acts of giving and receiving, based upon an 
appropriate level of respect for one another. The simple act of 
giving food, clothing, or money as an act of charity cultivates 
within one self an open heart, a gentle kindness, towards others. 
Both of these qualities (an open heart and gentle kindness), are 
integral to a spiritual path. 

The Buddha next gave teachings on Sila: virtue, morality and ethics. 
Sila is another Pali word that has many meanings. The meaning of 
Sila includes such ideas as virtue, morality and ethics. Sila 
depends upon Dana: generosity, charity and almsgiving - as its 
cornerstone. However, Sila goes further down the spiritual path. 
Sila: virtue, morality and ethics - cultivates harmony within 
ourselves and it cultivates harmony within this world in which we 
are immersed, and interdependent.

Sila: virtue, morality and ethics - empowers us to strengthen our 
relationships, and to increase their flexibility, resiliency, and 
warmth through spontaneous wisdom, friendliness, and compassion. If 
we engage this discipline of Sila throughout all aspects of our 
life, both public as well as private, we will discover the greatest 
depth of well being we are capable of. In addition, we will have 
laid a solid foundation for the Buddhist discipline of Bhavana: 
meditation. 

After offering teaching on Dana and Sila, the Buddha gave teachings 
on Bhavana. Bhavana is a Pali word that refers to mental 
development; but is properly called meditation. We will cover the 
practice of meditation in a separate program series. In this program 
series, we will be exploring the spiritual practices of Dana: 
generosity, charity and almsgiving - and Sila: virtue, morality and 
ethics. In addition, we will come to recognize how these two 
spiritual practices are inter-dependent and how they reinforce each 
other.

The approach to teaching the dharma used by the Buddha – first 
teaching Dana, then Sila and lastly Bhavana - is very different from 
how Buddhism spread throughout western civilization after World War 
II. When Buddhism entered western civilization, it first encountered 
the intelligentsia and the avant-garde who were interested in 
teachings on the discipline of Bhavana, meditation. Therefore, those 
were the teachings that were transmitted. 

However, since the 80's Buddhist teachers here in the West have 
begun to appreciate the need for offering teachings on Sila: virtue, 
ethics and morality - and to integrate these teachings into the 
lives of their members. In addition, to a lesser degree, the 
discipline of Dana: generosity, charity, almsgiving - is now being 
transmitted within some western Buddhist groups. While it is 
encouraging to see the spread of teachings on Dana and Sila, they 
still are not generally being transmitted in the order that the 
Buddha shared them. This is unfortunate, because there is a lot of 
wisdom reflected in the teaching sequence he used. In the Deer Park 
Sangha, here in Charlotte, North Carolina we follow the teaching 
sequence that the Buddha used, and so the TV programs sponsored by 
the Deer Park Sangha follow that sequence.

Yet the approach we will follow in teaching Dana and Sila is not the 
traditional Asian approach, by that I mean we will not present just 
the sayings of the Buddha, or the teachings of other seminal 
Buddhist teachers. Certainly, these teachings of the Buddha will be 
presented, but we will also introduce ideas from science, 
psychology, western philosophy and from the teachings of Jesus of 
Nazareth. These additional teachings will serve as a bridge that 
takes us from our beliefs conditioned by this contemporary American 
culture towards the ancient eastern religion of Buddhism. Without 
this bridge, we cannot get there from here.

Our western beliefs about generosity, charity, virtue, morality and 
ethics are the "here," they are the ground we stand on. However, I 
am not going to assume that you and I share the same beliefs about 
these topics. Since we are, in a manner of speaking, taking a 
journey of exploration together, I am going to spend the majority of 
the first three programs describing "here" – describing our point of 
departure - in detail. 

Clearly, generosity, charity, virtue, morality and ethics are an 
immensely complex terrain. To avoid any misunderstandings, we are 
not going to take the 10,000-foot view of the terrain. Instead, we 
are going to hug the tree line. Let me give you fair warning: the 
ground we stand on is going to be described in detail and in depth. 
Consequently, this will involve a significant amount of analysis. If 
you are not given to analyzing things, this will appear to be very 
scholarly, intellectual, and perhaps dry – I hope that the analysis 
actually peaks your interest and gets you thinking about these 
topics in new ways. 

To describe this ground, I will be using western philosophy, western 
psychology and the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. The key to this 
approach is to make it clear when a point being made is from 
science, psychology, western philosophy, or from the teachings of 
Jesus and when an aspect of Buddhist doctrine is being presented - 
I'll do my best to point out these demarcations.

If it were possible to avoid this preliminary task, I would. While 
there is certainly something to be said for keeping things simple, 
there is also the real risk of dumbing things down so that, in 
effect, you end up treating the audience as if they were simpletons. 
This program series is for adults - it is intended for adults who 
have a serious interest in living a moral and ethical life that 
accords with the Buddha dharma. I prefer to put my trust in the 
basic intelligence of the American public.

After studying and practicing the Buddha dharma for close to forty 
years now, I have seen many Buddhist teachers skip this critically 
important preliminary task. Therefore, significant misunderstandings 
needlessly proliferate among western students and practitioners of 
Buddhism. The coverage of the topics in the first three programs is 
intended to address the most common misunderstandings that western 
students encounter. At minimum, the coverage will form a basis for 
discussions aimed at resolving these misunderstandings.

I am sure that you have all heard the phrase "Everyone who holds the 
pen adds their own perspective". You see, regardless of the topic, 
or the person, everyone has their own perspective of that topic, and 
that perspective is shaped by their personal experiences, by their 
family traditions and by the greater society they are a part of. 
This is true, as well, of me in regards to this program series.

This presentation of Buddhist virtue, morality and ethics includes 
Theravada, Mahayana Zen and Vajrayana teachings. Since I have 
elected not to become ordained in a particular lineage, I am not 
obligated to promote one particular tradition. Instead, I am free to 
create a hybrid of these traditions in a manner I hope will appeal 
to a broad segment of the American public and by so doing, share the 
dharma with a wider audience. 

...

This ends the first program extract.

Thank you for your considered response to this transcript.

With metta,
Suravira
	
33099

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 4:34pm
Subject: Deeds of Merit, Chapter One (Generosity)

Hello all

I am trying a new study method. I'm reading a book "Deeds of 
Merit" by Acharn Sujin that Nina recommended and instead of printing 
it out and highlighting it as I usually do, I thought I would share 
some passages from it with you. The passages I selected are based 
entirely on my own accumulations of course. I've added some of my own 
comments, and a question, which is helpful for me. I recommend 
skipping my comments unless you have a lot of time on your hands! 
If I'm not mistaken, the book is not available in print yet but can 
be found online. 

The first chapter will certainly be of interest to the group 
members who mentionned that they are doing research on dana.



Chapter 1 Generosity

S. : Each time we give something away we should know whether, as a 
consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or 
whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas [1. 
If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we 
give something away, I think that it would be better to give 
something else which can be a condition for the arising of more 
kusala cittas than akusala cittas. 
People who do not have any understanding of cause and result in life 
may make a great effort to give, or, on the contrary, they may have 
no inclination to give at all. If they are ignorant of cause and 
result and if they have no understanding of the kusala cittas or 
akusala cittas which arise after the giving, they will either be 
overdoing generosity or, on the other hand, be negligent. In both 
cases there will be sorrow afterwards. 


(ph: As for akusala and kusala related to giving, I have not 
thought eneough about it. I am not one who gives a lot in the 
material sense. I talk about giving my full presence when teaching. 
That is a significant gift I believe- and one which most people do 
not give when listening to others I sense. But I want to continue to 
think more about the material aspect of dana. For example, I wanted 
to give a gift to the Dhamma Foundation because I am reading so many 
of Nina?fs books for free. And I could, but it would involve a but of 
a tussle with the Finance Minister who lives in my house. :) So I am 
just having that intention for now. In a small way the fact that I 
still have that intention is a sign that I am thinking about dana.) 


S. : Someone is lax (in generosity) if he has misgivings about 
giving anything at all, and then he has very little kusala by way of 
generosity. Or, if he is able to give he only gives as little as 
possible and that very seldom. Such a person does not understand that 
at each moment of generosity there is elimination of avarice and of 
clinging to possessions, which are defilements accumulated in the 
citta. 

(ph: There is a Buddhist monk who stands in front of a station I 
pass by twice a week, accepting alms. Despite my interest in 
Buddhism, I have never thought of giving him something, because I am 
aware of how wealthy temple families are in Japan and I don?ft know 
if he is legitimate. That is stinginess. Also I am embarrassed and 
shy about it. That is being lax. We?fll see if one morning giving 
arises. I would feel better about giving him food but I think in 
Japan he would take that as an insult. Part of me wants to see what 
would happen if I gave him an onigiri rice ball. But I know that 
that curiosity is unwholesome so I let go of it. 
Also, I am lax about giving souvenirs from my trip to students and co-
workers the way that is expected in Japan. I have always thought it 
felt obligatory, and resisted, but that shows laxness on my part and 
laziness because it is troublesome. The Japanese tradition of 
?gomiyage?h- these souvenirs - must have Buddhist roots. )


S. : The word kusala refers to the nature of the citta which is 
good and beautiful, and such citta brings a pleasant result, thus, it 
causes us to receive what is pleasant. When someones citta is 
wholesome there are no attachment, anger, ignorance or jealousy, no 
pride, conceit or other defilements arising at that moment. Even if 
someone has no things he can give away there can be kusala citta. 
There are many other kinds of kusala besides the giving away of 
things. 

(ph: Thich Nhat Hahn wrote about this and said that we can give our 
presence our stability our freedom (meaning ways of finding joy free 
from affliction) our freshness, our peace, and space. These concepts 
are very conceptual and airy but they helped me a lot to be a better 
teacher. I need to think more about the way I give them or fail to 
give them to Naomi my wife. I tend to think more about my students 
than I do Naomi. That is neither good not bad but something to think 
about. What will I give her this morning when she wakes up? Will I 
leave my attachment to this dhamma activity to go and spend more time 
with her? Will I give her my full presence or will part of my mind be 
occupied by what I was writing here? (Did I get it right? Did I sound 
wise and insightful?) 

S. : There are not all the time kusala cittas with generosity, but 
even at the moments we are not actually giving away things we can 
continue to develop generosity, which is conditioned by the acts of 
generosity we have performed. We can transfer our kusala to others by 
letting them know about our good deeds so that they, in their turn, 
can have kusala cittas with appreciation of our good deeds. They 
rejoice in the kusala we have performed. When we make known our 
kusala to others, we perform a deed of generosity which is called 
transference of merit, in Paali: pattidaana. Thus, if one has 
performed deeds of generosity there is an opportunity to have kusala 
cittas arising once again by transference of merit, by helping others 
to have kusala cittas with appreciation of ones good deeds. 

(ph:?gWe can transfer out kusala to others by letting them know 
about our good deeds so that they in their turn can have kusala 
cittas with appreciation of our good deeds?h
Well this is certainly interesting. It goes against the usual 
thinking that our good deeds should be done without calling attention 
to them. Of course it should be done subtly. It brings about mudita. 
Obviously it would be easy to misinterpret the above. )

S. : The person who did not perform wholesome deeds himself, but 
who rejoices in the wholesome deeds of someone else, has kusala 
cittas, cittas without attachment, anger, jealousy or other 
defilements. The appreciation of someone elses kusala is another way 
of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else. 
This way of kusala is called in Paali: pattanumodana [5. At such a 
moment there is kusala citta with anumodana, appreciation of someone 
elses kusala. Therefore, even if someone cannot perform a wholesome 
deed himself he can still have kusala citta. When he has cittas 
without jealousy and when he rejoices in someone elses wholesome 
deed, his cittas are kusala cittas without necessarily giving away 
things himself to someone else. 

(ph: I will give this a shot now and tell you that I decided to 
share passages of this book with you as a way of performing dana. I 
knew that Nina is fond of this book because she has mentioned it 
several times so as a way of thanking her for her books I decided to 
share this one. I think this in some small way is a performance of 
dana - as well as a way of deepening my understanding of wholesome 
deeds, of course.
So, are you feeling kusala in appreciation of any kusala I have 
from sharing this book with you? :)

S: Besides the above mentioned ways of kusala there is still another 
way. When we have performed a deed of generosity there can again be 
kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on the daana or generous 
deed we have performed with cittas which are calm and pure. Thus, 
when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform 
deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the 
cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. 

(ph: This is very interesting. Again it seems to go against my 
conventional thinking that it could create attachment to one?fs deeds 
as self, and a self-pleased feeling, with the emphasis on self. 
Wouldn?ft letting go of the good deed with faith in the Buddha?fs 
teaching that wholesome deeds lead to more of the same be the way to 
go?)

Those are just a few passages from Chapter One.

Metta,
Phil
	
33100

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 4:53pm
Subject: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Hi, Jack, and Sarah and all -

In a message dated 5/17/2004 5:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1 writes:

> The third and highest kind of nibanna is samuccheda
> nibanna which happens when we completely uproot ignorance and fetters. This third
> form of nibanna unlike the other two is not dependent upon 
> conditions. Once we
> /get there/, we never go back.
==========================
In this regard, I would be very interested in hearing peoples' ideas on exactly what it means to say that nibbana (in the traditional sense) is unconditioned and non-arising. I think there may be several ways of understanding this, and perhaps more than one of them are valid.
I take nibbana to be the complete absence of confusion/ignorance, craving, and aversion, and hence of dukkha. Given that as the meaning, what does it mean for it to be unconditioned and non-arising? 
Is it unconditioned in the sense that from the perspective of the absence of ignorance, there simply are no separate, self-existent conditions, but instead a vast net of interdependencies wherein nothing that is self-existent ever arises or ceases? Or is it unconditioned (and non-arising and nonceasing) in the sense that, in principle, the ultimate emptiness of nibbana is a permanent reality in the same way that a canvas is, in and of itself, empty of paint even when covered by paint, and the removal of that paint doesn't *produce* an empty canvas, but *reveals* it? (Here, the "paint" is the three poisons.)
I'd be particularly interested in hearing what the commentaries have to say with regard to the unconditionedness and permanence of nibbana.

With metta,
Howard
	
33101

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Hi Howard

In a message dated 5/17/2004 4:57:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
upasaka@a... writes:
I take nibbana to be the complete absence of confusion/ignorance, craving, 
and aversion, and hence of dukkha. Given that as the meaning, what does it mean 
for it to be unconditioned and non-arising? 
Yes but there are two types of Nibbana, that "with residue" and that "without 
residue." The former kind can still experience dukkha, the later kind 
cannot. Although I suppose its the "residue" aspect that is still subject to 
dukkha, not the Nibbana part. In both cases, as you say, ignorance and its 
co-arising factors: craving, aversion, (and any sense-of-self) are eradicated.

Is it unconditioned in the sense that from the perspective of the absence 
of ignorance, there simply are no separate, self-existent conditions, but 
instead a vast net of interdependencies wherein nothing that is self-existent 
ever arises or ceases? 
If I'm understanding your question properly, I would say that this "vision" 
is the insight that eventually leads to Nibbana but is not Nibbana "itself."

Or is it unconditioned (and non-arising and nonceasing) in the sense that, in 
principle, the ultimate emptiness of nibbana is a permanent reality in the 
same way that a canvas is, in and of itself, empty of paint even when covered by 
paint, and the removal of that paint doesn't *produce* an empty canvas, but 
*reveals* it? (Here, the "paint" is the three poisons.)
I'd be particularly interested in hearing what the commentaries have to 
say with regard to the unconditionedness and permanence of nibbana.

I like your paint and canvas analogy. (Whether or not its accurate.)

Seems to me the questions are... is there a permanent empty state that is 
Nibbana? Or, is Nibbana the abscence states? Regarding the later case, I think 
its clear that Nibbana is the abscence of dukkha related states. Especially 
since it means extinction or extinguish. And although the Buddha did call it 
-- 'the highest happinesss,' there is not enough evidence in the suttas to 
indicate to me it is a "actual state." Even if it is an "actual state," I wonder 
if entertaining any theoretical framework of it as such is going to be a 
hindrance to actually achieving it.

Below is a listing from the Patisambhidamagga of comparative terms. This 
list is a little more extensive than the ones found in the Suttas. The 
parenthesized explainations, next to a few terms, are my own and can be disregarded as 
such. However, one definition of unconditioned here is "not empty" at that 
would contradict the Suttas unless it is looked at such as I have done below. 
There is also the term "core" below for unconditioned which again if taken 
literally, points to a "canvas" underlying events. 

My sense is the Buddha either didn't want us to know about a "canvas" as it 
may be harmful to making progress, or that there is no canvas. (I lean toward 
the latter.) Otherwise, there would be no reason to have it an enigma. Then 
again I may have mis-understood your questions. Either way, I don't think we 
will ever know until we are there (or not there). 

Conditions: 
Unconditioned:
a disease 
health
a boil 
no boil
a dart 
no dart
a calamity 
no calamity
an affliction 
no affliction
alien 
independent of others
disintegrating 
not disintegrating
a plague 
no plague
a disaster 
no disaster
a terror 
non-terror
a menace 
no menace
fickle 
un-fickle
perishable 
un-perishable
un-enduring 
enduring
no protection 
protection
no shelter 
shelter
no refuge 
refuge
empty (of satisfaction) 
not empty (of satisfaction)
vain 
not vain
void 
the ultimate voidness
not self 
as the ultimate meaning of not self
a danger 
without danger
subject to change 
not subject to change
having no core (of deliverance) the 
core (of deliverance)
the root of calamity 
not the root of calamity
murderous 
not murderous
to be annihilated 
not to be annihilated
subject to cankers 
free from cankers
formed 
unformed
materialistic 
un-materialistic
connected with the state of birth the 
unborn
connected with the state of aging the 
un-aging
connected with the state of ailment the 
un-ailing
connected with the state of death the 
deathless
connected with the state of sorrow without 
sorrow
connected with the state of lamentation without 
lamentation
connected with the state of despair without 
despair
(The Path of Discrimination, (Patisambhidamagga), pg. 402 – 403, Treatise on 
Insight)

With metta,
Howard
Take care. TG


	
33102

From: bodhi2500 <seisen_@h...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:59pm
Subject: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Jack, All,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote:
> Bhikkhu Buddhadasa makes distinctions in nibanna that might 
interest you. The 
> first kind of nibanna he calls tadanga nibanna which is our natural 
state and 
> might arise with help from favorable surroundings such as listening 
to Mozart 
> or observing a sunset. It happens to us if we are open to it. 

" When one has understood the impermanence of form, of feeling, of 
perception, of volitional formations, of consciousness, its change, 
fading away, and cessation, and when one sees as it really is 
(yathaabhuuta.m) with correct wisdom (sammappa~n~na) thus: `In the 
past and also now all consciousness is impermanent, suffering, and 
subject to change,' then sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and 
dispair are abandoned. With their abandonment, one does not become 
agitated. Being unagitated, one dwells happily. A bhikkhu who dwells 
happily is said to be `quenched in that respect' (tadaganibbuto). 
(Samuttanikaya, Khandhavagga, 43, With yourselves as an Island.)

Bhikkhu Bodhis notes on the occurrence of tadaganibbuto in the above 
Sutta are:

Tadanganibbuto ti vuccati. Though nibbuto is the past participle 
generally used to describe one who has attained Nibbana, the 
prefix `tadanga-` qualifies that sense, suggesting he has not 
actually attained Nibbana but has only approximated its attainment. 
One might have rendered this expression "one who has attained Nibbana 
in that respect,"i.e., only in respect of a particular freedom. Spk
(Commentary): He is "quenched in that respect" because of the 
quenching of the defilements with respect to (or: through the factor 
of) insight. In this sutta it is just insight (vipassana va) that is 
discussed.

My understanding on this would be that "Tadanganibbuto" is a 
temporary quenching (nibbuto) of the defilements at a moment of 
insight/vipassana/satipatthana. And this could possibly happen many 
times a week or while listening to Mozart or watching a sunset as 
Buddhadasa Bhikhhu says. It seems `Nibbuto' is being used in the 
sense of quenched, and is not referring to the unconditioned Nibbana 
dhatu.
I'm not sure how Buddhadasa Bhikhhus "natural state of mind" fits in 
with this though.


Steve.

P.S. Sarah , I'm going to drop the Jhana and discernment of 
kusala/akusala thread for now. Your last post on the subject gave me 
some things to think about. Thanks for the replies.
	
33103

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 6:00pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch I, no 1

AS: "Most important in life is understanding reality. Otherwise all
phenomema of life are still 'I', and the cycle of birth and death will
continue."

Hi Nina,

I like this. Another way to say the same thing with different emphasis
is the most important is nibbana.

Larry
	
33104

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 7:28pm
Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Hi Howard,

This is a classic question. Is nibbana a mere absence or a thing in
itself? If a thing in itself, is it here already only obscured? 

At this point I'm favoring a thing in itself here already. ("Thing" is
pretty crude but probably any term would be crude.) My reasoning is that
in abhidhamma and in a few hints in sutta, nibbana is a reality with a
characteristic (peace). I don't see how an absence could be considered a
reality; it seems like a concept. There are no elephants in my room but
can I be conscious of that? The reason I say here already is because
where else would it be? Also nibbana seems to be distinctly different
from the khandhas. The Buddha could have said nibbana is the good
khandhas or the neutral khandhas, but he didn't. 

Of course the Buddha didn't say much about nibbana anyway. Also this
here/now reality puts me in the mahayana crowd that believes in Buddha
Nature (tathagatagarba). It seems to me they have gone way too far with
all sorts of imaginings; so that makes me a little doubtful of my own
view.

Larry
	
33105

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 3:37pm
Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Hi, TG -

In a message dated 5/17/04 8:56:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
TGrand458@a... writes:

> Hi Howard
> 
> In a message dated 5/17/2004 4:57:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> upasaka@a... writes:
> I take nibbana to be the complete absence of confusion/ignorance, craving, 
> and aversion, and hence of dukkha. Given that as the meaning, what does it 
> mean 
> for it to be unconditioned and non-arising? 
> Yes but there are two types of Nibbana, that "with residue" and that 
> "without 
> residue." The former kind can still experience dukkha, the later kind 
> cannot. Although I suppose its the "residue" aspect that is still subject 
> to 
> dukkha, not the Nibbana part. In both cases, as you say, ignorance and its 
> co-arising factors: craving, aversion, (and any sense-of-self) are 
> eradicated.
> 
------------------------------------------
Howard:
I believe that there is more than one way to understand "nibbana with 
residue", but in any of those ways I do not understand dukkha as still an 
element of experience. I do not belive that a living arahant experiences dukkha in 
the sense of suffering. An arahant is fully and always equanimous.
------------------------------------------

> 
> Is it unconditioned in the sense that from the perspective of the absence 
> of ignorance, there simply are no separate, self-existent conditions, but 
> instead a vast net of interdependencies wherein nothing that is 
> self-existent 
> ever arises or ceases? 
> If I'm understanding your question properly, I would say that this "vision" 
> is the insight that eventually leads to Nibbana but is not Nibbana "itself."
> 
------------------------------------------
Howard:
I agree that it is not nibbana itself. Nibbana itself is the absence 
of the three poisons. I believe that this vision is a consequence of the 
realization of nibbana, most specifically the realization of amoha.
------------------------------------------

> 
> Or is it unconditioned (and non-arising and nonceasing) in the sense that, 
> in 
> principle, the ultimate emptiness of nibbana is a permanent reality in the 
> same way that a canvas is, in and of itself, empty of paint even when 
> covered by 
> paint, and the removal of that paint doesn't *produce* an empty canvas, but 
> *reveals* it? (Here, the "paint" is the three poisons.)
> I'd be particularly interested in hearing what the commentaries have to 
> say with regard to the unconditionedness and permanence of nibbana.
> 
> I like your paint and canvas analogy. (Whether or not its accurate.)
> 
> Seems to me the questions are... is there a permanent empty state that is 
> Nibbana? Or, is Nibbana the abscence states? Regarding the later case, I 
> think 
> its clear that Nibbana is the abscence of dukkha related states. Especially 
> 
> since it means extinction or extinguish. And although the Buddha did call 
> it 
> -- 'the highest happinesss,' there is not enough evidence in the suttas to 
> indicate to me it is a "actual state." Even if it is an "actual state," I 
> wonder 
> if entertaining any theoretical framework of it as such is going to be a 
> hindrance to actually achieving it.
> 
--------------------------------------
Howard:
I suspect that will neither help nor hurt. The eightfold path, and its 
cultivation, are what count, it seems to me.
-------------------------------------

> 
> Below is a listing from the Patisambhidamagga of comparative terms. This 
> list is a little more extensive than the ones found in the Suttas. The 
> parenthesized explainations, next to a few terms, are my own and can be 
> disregarded as 
> such. However, one definition of unconditioned here is "not empty" at that 
> would contradict the Suttas unless it is looked at such as I have done 
> below. 
> There is also the term "core" below for unconditioned which again if taken 
> literally, points to a "canvas" underlying events. 
> 
-------------------------------------------
Howard:
I didn't mean my canvas metaphor to suggest an underlying reality in a 
substantialist sense. I simply meant to indicate the defiling poisons as 
being adventitious and removable, so that "the mind" is not inherently defiled. If 
it were inherently defiled, like a canvas *composed* of paint, then nibbana 
would not only not be a permanent fact, but would not even be achievable.
---------------------------------------------

> 
> My sense is the Buddha either didn't want us to know about a "canvas" as it 
> may be harmful to making progress, or that there is no canvas. (I lean 
> toward 
> the latter.) Otherwise, there would be no reason to have it an enigma. 
> Then 
> again I may have mis-understood your questions. Either way, I don't think 
> we 
> will ever know until we are there (or not there). 
> 
> Conditions: 
> Unconditioned:
> a disease 
> health
> a boil 
> no boil
> a dart 
> no dart
> a calamity 
> no calamity
> an affliction 
> no affliction
> alien 
> independent of others
> disintegrating 
> not disintegrating
> a plague 
> no plague
> a disaster 
> no disaster
> a terror 
> non-terror
> a menace 
> no menace
> fickle 
> un-fickle
> perishable 
> un-perishable
> un-enduring 
> enduring
> no protection 
> protection
> no shelter 
> shelter
> no refuge 
> refuge
> empty (of satisfaction) 
> not empty (of satisfaction)
> vain 
> not vain
> void 
> the ultimate voidness
> not self 
> as the ultimate meaning of not self
> a danger 
> without danger
> subject to change 
> not subject to change
> having no core (of deliverance) the 
> core (of deliverance)
> the root of calamity 
> not the root of calamity
> murderous 
> not murderous
> to be annihilated 
> not to be annihilated
> subject to cankers 
> free from cankers
> formed 
> unformed
> materialistic 
> un-materialistic
> connected with the state of birth the 
> unborn
> connected with the state of aging the 
> un-aging
> connected with the state of ailment the 
> un-ailing
> connected with the state of death the 
> deathless
> connected with the state of sorrow without 
> sorrow
> connected with the state of lamentation without 
> lamentation
> connected with the state of despair without 
> despair
> (The Path of Discrimination, (Patisambhidamagga), pg. 402 – 403, Treatise on 
> 
> Insight)
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> Take care. TG
> 
=========================
Great to "talk" with you, TG.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33106

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 )

Dear Htoo,
I join Sarah, I also found this way of presenting much more helpful, and
easier for the reader.
Nina. 
op 17-05-2004 10:31 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:

> I found your two Hetu Paccaya Initiation’ extracts 1 and 2 with your
> extra explanations to be clear and helpful. The format and length were
> just right and they were easier to digest’. Please keep up the
> Initiations for us average folk here;-).
	
33107

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 5:46pm
Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Hi, Larry -

In a message dated 5/17/04 10:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> Hi Howard,
> 
> This is a classic question. Is nibbana a mere absence or a thing in
> itself? If a thing in itself, is it here already only obscured? 
> 
> At this point I'm favoring a thing in itself here already. ("Thing" is
> pretty crude but probably any term would be crude.) My reasoning is that
> in abhidhamma and in a few hints in sutta, nibbana is a reality with a
> characteristic (peace).
> 
-----------------------------------------------
Howard:
I agree completely that Abhidhamma presents nibbana as a paramattha 
dhamma. The Sutta Pitaka, when it speaks of unmanifestive consciousness, perhaps 
is also suggestive of that, though largely nibbana in the suttas is presented 
as an absence - the ultimate emptiness, in fact. Now, I think that 
interpreting unmanifestive consciousness as nibbana is a mistake. Unmanifestive 
consciousness, as I see it, is the way experience is when freed of the three poisons. 
It is experience freed of reification, of subject-making, of object-making, of 
craving, aversion, and clinging. It is experience in which awareness of 
interdependent origination is immediate (i.e., unmediated). That mode of experience 
is not nibbana, it is the way experience is when nibbana has been realized. 
-----------------------------------------

I don't see how an absence could be considered a> 
> reality; it seems like a concept. There are no elephants in my room but
> can I be conscious of that?
----------------------------------------
Howard:
If there *had* been elephants in your room, and then - poof - they 
disappeared, you would then indeed be aware of their absence. Their absence would 
have been *realized*. But, in a sense, the room sans elephants - that is the 
room per se - existed even before the elephants disappeared. You just didn't 
notice it then. The room populated with elephants was like the canvas covered 
with paint. 
In any case, I think it is not so certain that an absence could not be 
a reality. What is wisdom? Is it not the absence of confusion? Or, if you 
don't like that, what is confusion? Is it not the absence of wisdom? Are not 
confusion and wisdom both realities? I don't think we should be overly certain 
about what is real and what is not.
------------------------------------------------
The reason I say here already is because> 
> where else would it be? Also nibbana seems to be distinctly different
> from the khandhas. The Buddha could have said nibbana is the good
> khandhas or the neutral khandhas, but he didn't. 
> 
-------------------------------------------------
Howard:
The absence of defilements is not a khandha. So no problem there.
------------------------------------------------

> 
> Of course the Buddha didn't say much about nibbana anyway. Also this
> here/now reality puts me in the mahayana crowd that believes in Buddha
> Nature (tathagatagarba). It seems to me they have gone way too far with
> all sorts of imaginings; so that makes me a little doubtful of my own
> view.
> 
> Larry
> 
======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33108

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:53pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit, Chapter One (Generosity)

Hi Phil,

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 

> (ph: I will give this a shot now and tell you that I decided to 
> share passages of this book with you as a way of performing dana. I 
> knew that Nina is fond of this book because she has mentioned it 
> several times so as a way of thanking her for her books I decided to 
> share this one. I think this in some small way is a performance of 
> dana - as well as a way of deepening my understanding of wholesome 
> deeds, of course.
> So, are you feeling kusala in appreciation of any kusala I have 
> from sharing this book with you? :)
...
S: I'm definitely appreciating this dana and I'm glad you included this
comment. Anumodanaa! (that means rejoicing or appreciating your dana).

It's a very nice way to show your thanks to Nina too and I really enjoy
all your reflections and commentary ;-). I'll look forward to more. Maybe
you can slowly go through the whole piece in this way and then any others
you find of interest.

Metta,

Sarah
=====

	
33109

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Mon May 17, 2004 11:56pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" 
<epsteinrob@Y...> wrote:
> 
> i don't know what your understanding of meditation is, or if you 
have
> ever practiced it yourself, but it seems inaccurate to me. 
Buddhist
> meditation is Buddhist meditation because it is founded in 
Buddhism. 
> It is not against the principles of Buddhism, it is derived from 
them
> and is the expression of them. Buddhist meditation does not try to
> elevate one's state or replace it with another. Like all things in
> Buddhism it looks at them directly in the moment to discern their 
reality.
>

Hi Rob Ep,

This is the way I look at it: (Sorry if it's a bit one-eyed.) ;-)
Imagine that a Buddhist teacher was able to place a number of mental 
and physical phenomena in front of you and tell you, "That is you!" 
It is logically impossible of course but, even so, imagine your 
reaction; "Is that all there is? This can't be right!"

That is what the Buddha was able to do for people who were ready to 
know the truth. Even now, we can learn the same lesson to the 
extent alowed by our accumulated wisdom. We can read suttas in 
which the Buddha describes the all: he says there are a couple of 
rupas (eye-base and eye object) a slightly larger number of namas 
(eye consciousness and its associated mental factors including 
contact and feeling) and that is all. 

The Abhidhamma is there for those of us who want to know as much as 
possible about those, and any other namas and rupas that may arise 
(e.g., those that arise in a moment of hearing or in a moment of 
sleeping). 

May I respectfully suggest that formal practice is there for those 
of us who do not want to hear about the all? It is a later 
development of populist Buddhism that appeals to our sense of self. 
It offers the ideal of a `selfless self' – a self-sacrificing hero, 
stoically and magnificently on the path to enlightenment.

Whether we like it or not, there is no such hero. In the 
conditioned world, there are only fleeting, unworthy, impersonal, 
mental and physical phenomena. They arise, perform their functions 
(which include conditioning their successors) and then they cease. 
In the unconditioned world, there is only Nibbana.

If we are not ready to hear the truth about the all, then we are 
free to ignore it. We are even free, regrettably, to insist that 
the Buddha taught something else. However, for the time being at 
least, the evidence is still there in the Pali Canon and its ancient 
commentaries. 

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33110

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 0:19am
Subject: Quiet James

Dear Friends,

In case anyone is wondering, I haven't fallen off the face of the 
planet ;-)) Not yet, anyway. ;-). I haven't been posting lately 
because, frankly, I don't have anything else to say. I have covered 
just about all of the significant areas of Buddhism I wanted to 
cover, have made my positions known and clear, and feel that any 
more posting would be overkill. But please understand, I have not 
lost my enthusiasm for the dhamma and I spend most of my free time 
studying and meditating. Also, I have not lost my interest, 
concerns, and connection with my dhamma friends in this group. I 
wish you all health, prosperity, and happiness. So, James is quiet 
but James is not gone. ;-) 

Metta, James
	
33111

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea

Hi Phil (Rob Ep & Kom), 

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> Ph: The confusing thing for me - but not in a troubling way - is that 
> even within the Theravada community there seems to be a view that the 
> mind can be directed in a wholesome direction. 
.....
S: I liked your earlier comment with regard to your 20minute walk:

“Now it is probably true that this practice arose in a conditioned way. I
see that. But whether it is conditioned or not there is directing of the
mind involved. And when that directing happens it is a remnant of self
that thinks it is doing it....”. 

Your comments made good sense to me, Phil. Whether we call it a Big Self
or a Little Self, a refined Self or a Non-Self, the illusion that there
can be and is any dhamma apart from the conditioned cittas, cetasikas or
rupas arising and falling away at this moment is hindering the development
of insight.
.....
Ph> The final SELF suggests a mistaken belief in something like an 
> Atman, I guess, but I’m interested in the idea that before self is 
> fully understood to be a fiction, and is released, it can become a 
> more refined fiction, a more wholesome fiction.
....
S: Never a ‘wholesome fiction’ when it is based on sakkaya ditthi
(self-view).
.....
> As Sarah said this belief could lead to make it harder to finally 
> let the fiction of self go, but I think that underestimates the power 
> of the Buddha’s teaching.. Constant exposure to the Buddha’s 
> teaching and good Dhamma friends would lead one eventually to waking 
> up from the fiction, 
.....
S: I’d like to pick up on a point that I think Rob Ep was making too. We
cannot assume that ‘constant exposure....’ will lead to eventual waking up
unless it is accompanied by the development of wisdom. There can be the
wrong handling of the snake and one can miss the point whilst reading the
suttas, taking the people and things as being realities rather than
conventional truths and one can memorise all the charts and details in the
Abhidhamma, becoming quite insane in the process.

From the Introductory discourse in the Atthasaalinii (transl as The
Expositor, PTS) referred to briefly the other day and also to be found in
MN, Alagadduupamaa Sutta:

“ ‘Just as, bhikkhus, a person desirous of catching a snake goes out in
search of one. He sees a big snake and catches it either by the body or
the tail. And the snake turning back bites him on the hand, the arm, or
any other part of the body big or small. On that account he dies or
suffers pain approaching death. And why? Because, bhikkhus, of his bad
catching of the snake. In the same way, bhikkhus, in the religion some
good-for-nothing persons improperly study the doctrine in its various
branches. Having studied the doctrine they do not intelligently consider
the meaning of the text. And the meaning not being considered with
understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves to close
insight. Those people study the doctrine for the purpose of annoying
others or of freeing themselves from the criticism or scoffing of others.
For whatever Good right-minded people study the doctrine, that Good these
good-for-nothing people do not experience; and the doctrines being badly
acquired are conducive to their disadvantage and misery for a long time.
Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being badly acquired.’ “

It continues to say how the reverse is true when the doctrines are well
acquired.
.....
>but there could be benefits in making the 
> fiction more wholesome before closing the book on it. 
>Possibly. It 
> could also be that as a person who has an interest in writing 
> stories, the fiction of self is accumulated in a way for me in a way 
> that makes it so attractive that I have to finish the story in a good 
> way before closing the book.. 
....
S: The sooner the fiction is seen for what it is -- however attractive
and alluring -- and discarded, the better.

We can also begin to see that the value in hearing the Buddha’s teachings
is to understand realities and to discard wrong views, rather than to just
create conditions whereby there is less akusala in a day. For example,
rebirth in the arupabrahma plane results from the development of the
highest jhana states. However, the latent tendency of wrong view is still
there for one who hasn’t become a sotapanna and there cannot be any
knowing or reduction of this wrong view during that life-time because
there cannot be any hearing or seeing of the Dhamma (no rupas
experienced). So one cannot become a sotapanna during that life. 

Ignorance and wrong view with respect to rupas as well as namas have to
arise and be experienced in order for them to be known and the latent
tendency eradicated. So the idea of just trying to have more kusala and
less akusala in a day does not lead to insight. This is why we have a very
precious opportunity in this life to be able to really hear, read and
consider the teachings which is also not possible for all humans even if
they are surrounded by texts and good friends.

Phil, that was a bit more of a rave than I had intended and I may have
touched on a few controversial ponts. 

In an earlier message I had also wished to give a link to a very early
letter of Jon’s (1976) about making decisions. I still can’t find the
complete letter, but here RobK quotes from it:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13214.html

Metta,

Sarah
p.s If you or anyone else thinks you may have missed mails, you could
periodically type your name (‘Phil’ and ‘Philip’ in your case) in the
search at escribe to check (though escribe periodically misses posts too):
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/
I also find it works well to have an email account just for posts here.
======


	
33112

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] A Wandering Mind

Hi Larry,

> I've been thinking the same thing today. A moment of awareness of any 
> kind of panic is sort of a protection against that panic, magical 
> armor. As you say there is no need to figure things out, analyze, or 
> even conceptually identify. The panic may continue to be unpleasant 
> but in the context of that awareness it is obviously not me. Just a 
> little flicker of awareness now and then really is magical. 
.....
Thank you for sharing this. It’s nice to be in agreement and the
development of satipatthana is the only real protection or armor as you
suggest. Of course during the panic there are various namas and rupas
involved - the experiencing of the rupas through the body-sense, the
various feelings, the thinking with fear and so on. As you say, ‘just a
little flicker of awareness now and then really is magical’ and we don’t
have to pin-point or analyze these moments. This is how an appreciation of
‘refuge’ which Nina and Philip were discussing grows - by knowing how the
moments of awareness are different from moments without awareness. 

By understanding the various namas and rupas and the moments of momentary
awareness when they arise, there will be less and less attachment to other
methods or ways of development I think. Of course, when there’s so little
awareness in a day, there’s bound to be attachment to it or the idea of a
self who wants to keep it or make it last longer, but again, awareness can
be aware of this attachment or wrong view too. 

However many times we might read or talk about awareness, it’s not the
same as when it arises and is known and when it and other realities begin
to be seen for what they are as anatta.

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33113

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 2:51am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 )

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Htoo,
> I join Sarah, I also found this way of presenting much more 
helpful, and
> easier for the reader.
> Nina. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Nina,

Thanks for your encouragement. I will try to my best in presenting 
discussion of dhamma in different ways so that the deepest 
understanding may taken out from these discussion messages.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33114

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 3:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 02 )

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Htoo & All,
> 
> I found your two `Hetu Paccaya Initiation' extracts 1 and 2
with 
your
> extra explanations to be clear and helpful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sarah and All,

I am discussing hetu paccaya. So 18 cittas are left. Only 71 cittas 
are with roots. So vipaka and kiriya that you quoted from my message 
is right. I was talking on javana kiriya.

Regarding adosa, what you said are all right. I prefer adosa as 
cetasika and when talking in that sense it comprises its own meaning 
metta or non-hurting nature. Metta as used by daily term needs satta 
pannatta as an object. But adosa does not as you said. That is why I 
prefer adosa.

Thanks for your encouragement and support. I will try to my best.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33115

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 3:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesa (defilements)

Hi RobM & All,

Thank you for your additional comments and lively, helpful examples. I’m
sure I speak for everyone when I say that we really appreciate it when
you’re around to assist and share.

--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
> This activity drives home how ingrained habits are. Applying this to 
> natural decisive support condition, we can see how pervaisive are our 
> accumulations (both good and bad) in directing our lives.
....
S: Yes. From the Visuddhimagga on latent tendencies(XXII, 60) 
... For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent
tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising
of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again."

Also from the Cetana sutta we’ve discussed before, SN12:38 (Bodhi transl):

“If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still
has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance
of consciousness........Such is the origin of this whole mass of
suffering.”

“Spk: this refers to a moment when there is no occurrence of [wholesome
and unwholesome] volition of the three planes, and no occurrence of the
mental fabrications of craving and views. ‘but one still has a tendency’:
by this the underlying tendencies are included because they have not been
abandoned here in the resultants of the three planes........As long as the
underlying tendencies exist, they become a condition for the kammic
consciousness, for there is no way to prevent its arising.”
....
<....>
R:> We all have problems maintaining the mind / object during daily life, 
> but the underlying realities have not changed. What has changed is 
> our perspective.
...
S: Of course, in truth there is no mind or object that can be maintained.
Conditioned dhammas, including awareness or any other wholesome states
arise and fall by conditions. Why do we wish to maintain them or who or
what does the maintaining? A friend pointed out (off-list) that there are
determination, willing, control, exertion, and striving, but that they are
not-self. 

This was a good point. To take the example of willing, from ‘Summary &
Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma’ (PTS), ch2:

“Volition (cetanaa) is what wills; it directs itself and associated
dhammas onto the object, or it achieves the task of forming what is
formed.........Volition has the characteristic of willing. It should be
seen as like a senior apprentice or a master carpenter, etc, who
accomplishes others’ work as well as his own.”

While I'm at it, from the same text, let me give brief definitions on
determination/decision (adhimokkha) and effort/vigour (viriya):

"Decision (adhimokkha) is deciding. It has the characteristic of definite
conclusion. Because of its not wavering about the object, it should be
seen as like a royal gate-post.

"Vigour (viriya) is the state of heroes (viira), or the appropriate
(vidhinaa) action that needs to be carried out (iirayitabba), needs to be
performed; it is endeavour. It has the characteristic of supporting the
conascent [dhammas]. by means of vigour they do not exist in a feeble
condition....."
*****
So of course it’s not correct to say there is no willing etc when clearly
there are various mental states which perform these functions and are not
self. Furthermore, of course we have to use ‘we’ and ‘self’ in our
discussions. However, if we’re just interested in understanding these
conditioned states as they are and appreciate that ‘willing’ or cetana,
for example, arises with every single citta, including all akusala cittas,
perhaps there will be less concern with ‘maintaining’, ‘controlling’ or
‘willing’. In other words, I think it’s a valid point that we shouldn’t
always pounce on the idea of a self idea being around when these words are
used, but we also have to appreciate that it’s a path of detachment from
what arises. If it isn’t the time or there aren’t the conditions now for
any of the eightfold path factors to arise, so be it. 

I was also reminded by the friend of the Bodhisatta’s Great Determination
and perfection of the Paramis which should encourage us to develop ‘the
determination and exertion for practicing mindfulness immersed in the body
without alluding to any idea of a self that determines or exerts thus.’
(Also see the quote at end of post).

It’s true that without allusion to any idea of a self, we can read about
and reflect on the Paramis (Perfections) and appreciate these qualities to
be developed. Again, only mindfulness (sati) can be aware of wholesome and
unwholesome variations of these states and only understanding (pa~n~naa)
can know when they arise with detachment and when they arise with
attachment, which of course is most of the day for us. I’m also not sure
why there would be any determination or exertion ‘for practicing
mindfulness immersed in the body’ rather than developing awareness of any
conditioned nama or rupa which will most definitely be accompanied by
wholesome determination (adhimokkha) and right effort or exertion, surely?

I think it’s very useful to consider from an Abhidhamma point of view what
exactly is meant by ‘determination, willing, control, exertion, and
striving’ and to find out for ourselves whether there is any idea of self
involved and to learn to appreciate the distinctions between these states
arising with wholesome and unwholesome moments of consciousness. I’m
always very glad to be reminded of the Paramis and of these qualities
perfected by the Bodhisatta. 

Again I’m reminded of how profound the teachings are and how easy it is
for there to be misunderstandings due to our ignorance and misguided
views.

I look forward to any further comments.

Metta,

Sarah
======

>
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/2-dukanipata/001-Vassupanayikavaggo-e.htm
> 
> Bhikkhus, you should acquire knowledge in these two things. Such as
> dissatisfaction in meritorious thoughts and the non hindering exertion
> in meritorious thoughts. Bhikkhus, such was my exertion in meritorious
> thoughts. If it is so, may my skin, veins and bones remain. May the
> whole body dry up with flesh and blood. Without attaining what has to
> be attained with manly strength, effort and vigour I will not give up
> effort. Bhikkhus, then I quickly attained enlightenment and the end of
> unpleasantness.
> 
> Bhikkhus, you too should exert in meritorious thoughts. If it is so,
> may my skin, veins and bones remain. May the whole body dry up with
> flesh and blood. Without attaining what has to be attained with manly
> strength, effort and vigour I will not give up effort. Bhikkhus, if
> you do so, you too before long will attain the noble end of the holy
> life, for which sons of clansmen rightfully leave the household and
> become homeless. You will realize it here and now and abide in it.
> 
> Therefore bhikkhus, you should train. If it is so, may my skin, veins
> and bones remain. May the whole body dry up with flesh and blood.
> Without attaining what has to be attained with manly strength, effort
> and vigour I will not give up effort. This is the fifth.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------


	
33116

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 3:35am
Subject: Hetu Paccaya Initiation ( 04 )

PATTHANA  DHAMMA
30
Hetu paccaya or root conditions are one of patthana paccaya. They are 
one of 24 conditions ...
...These 18 cittas are 10 pancavinnana cittas, 5 akusala and 5 kusala 
in origin, 2 sampaticchana cittas or receiving consciousness again 
akusala and kusala, 2 upekkha santirana cittas, akusala and kusala, 
and 1 kusala somanassa santirana citta. These 15 cittas are vipaka 
cittas and they are called ahetuka vipaka cittas.

There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. They are pancadvaravajjana citta,
manodvaravajjana citta, and somanassa hasituppada citta. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo:

Kiriya citta do not have kamma potential and if these cittas arise 
they do not give rise to any kamma. We will not have any good or bad 
kamma due to maodvaravajjana citta. And so does pancadvaravajjana 
citta. Samanassa sahagatam ahetuka hasitappada citta is kiriya citta 
of arahats including The Buddha. It also does not give rise to kamma. 
But it does not have any root as in 71 cittas. This hasituppada citta 
does not have chanda or wish as an accompanying cetasika.

Hasitupada has two parts. Hasita means smiling or humour. Upada means 
arising. Smileing just arises. As it is rootless citta, arahats can 
smile. But they will never laugh out loud. And they will not even 
laugh with voicing. They just smile and this smiling is a rare event 
in arahats. The Buddha smiled when Minister Sansati boozed on the 
elephant because that satta is just going to be liberated soon even 
though he at the time of drunkeness was just a puthujana.

Puthujana means ordinary sattas. Puthu means countless, enormous, 
many, etc etc. Jananam means causing. Puthujana means those who are 
causing countless defilements.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

15 ahetuka vipaka cittas and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas are not 
supported by root condition.

These 18 cittas are ahetuka cittas while all other cittas are called 
as sahetuka cittas. 

There are 71 sahetuka cittas. They are 2 ekahetuka cittas, 22 
dvihetuka cittas, and 47 tihetuka cittas.

All these 71 sahetuka cittas are supported by root condition and this
condition is called as hetu paccaya. Hetu serves as the root for the 
whole tree. The root of a tree gives water to the whole tree, 
supports nutriment to the whole tree. 

Like a tree, the whole tree of nama-rupa are supported
by stated 6 hetus. As these 6 hetus are present, they support the stem
citta, all the branches cetasikas and all the leaves rupa dhamma.

Ekahetuka cittas are 2 moha mula cittas. In these 2 cittas, there is 
no other hetu but just moha hetu. So these cittas are called ekahetuka
cittas. 

Eka means one and that single hetu is moha. 2 moha mula cittas are
upekkha saha gatam uddhacca sampayutta citta and upekkha sahagatam
vicikiccha sampayutta citta. The root is moha hetu. The stem is 
uddhacca citta and vicikiccha citta.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Htoo:

Upekkha is equanimous feeling. Saha means together or along with. 
Gata means 'to go'. Vicikiccha is indecisiveness. It disbelieves in 
Dhamma and not sure whether there is a way to be liberated. 
Sampayutta means megre with. Uddhacca is spreading. It is 
restlessness. It is restless thinking as in case of thinking when 
face with great loss.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There are cetasika branches in the whole tree of nama-rupa. In uddacca
citta, there are 1.phassa or contact, 2. vedana or feeling, 3. cetana 
or volition, 4. sanna or perception, 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness, 
6.jivitindriya or mental life, 7. manasikara or attention, 8. vitakka 
or initial application, 9. vicara or sustained application, 10. 
viriya or effort, 11. adhimokkha or decisiveness, 12. ahirika or 
shamelessness, 13.anottappa or fearlessness, 14. uddhacca or 
spreading. 

In that tree of uddhacca there are a total of 15 cetasikas including 
the root moha. Leaves are cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa where uddhacca 
citta has to depend on that is hadaya vatthu, and utuja rupa and 
aharaja rupa are also so there.

In the tree of vicikiccha, the root that is a single root is moha as 
well. The stem is vicikiccha citta. There are cetasika branches. In 
vicikiccha citta, as it cannot decide anything there does not arise 
adhimokkha. So there will be 14 cetasikas that arise in uddhacca 
citta. But in vicikiccha citta an extra cetasika is vicikiccha 
cetasikas. So there are a total of 15 cetasikas in the vicikiccha 
tree. The root is moha. The stem is vicikiccha citta. The branches 
are 14 cetasikas ( with moha there will be 15 cetasikas ). Leaves are 
cittaja rupa, kammaja rupa hadaya vatthu, utuja rupa and aharaja 
rupa.In both trees, moha is the chief. 

Moha supports as root conditions to all those dhamma cited above. 
This condition is called root condition. This is hetu paccaya.
>========================================

Htoo:

This is end of page 30. Actually most words have been explained in 
the earlier pages. But here they are re-written so that they can be 
easily understood.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33117

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:28am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi, Ken -

In a message dated 5/18/04 3:11:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kenhowardau@y... writes:

> Imagine that a Buddhist teacher was able to place a number of mental 
> and physical phenomena in front of you and tell you, "That is you!" 
> It is logically impossible of course but, even so, imagine your 
> reaction; "Is that all there is? This can't be right!"
> 
> That is what the Buddha was able to do for people who were ready to 
> know the truth. Even now, we can learn the same lesson to the 
> extent alowed by our accumulated wisdom. We can read suttas in 
> which the Buddha describes the all: he says there are a couple of 
> rupas (eye-base and eye object) a slightly larger number of namas 
> (eye consciousness and its associated mental factors including 
> contact and feeling) and that is all. 
> 
> The Abhidhamma is there for those of us who want to know as much as 
> possible about those, and any other namas and rupas that may arise 
> (e.g., those that arise in a moment of hearing or in a moment of 
> sleeping). 
> 
> May I respectfully suggest that formal practice is there for those 
> of us who do not want to hear about the all? It is a later 
> development of populist Buddhism that appeals to our sense of self. 
> It offers the ideal of a `selfless self' – a self-sacrificing hero, 
> stoically and magnificently on the path to enlightenment.
> 
> 
===========================
From my reading of the suttas, this suggestion would be news to the 
Buddha!

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33118

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:30am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

It's good to hear you, "quiet James"!

With metta,
Noisy Howard

In a message dated 5/18/04 3:49:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
buddhatrue@y... writes:

> Dear Friends,
> 
> In case anyone is wondering, I haven't fallen off the face of the 
> planet ;-)) Not yet, anyway. ;-). I haven't been posting lately 
> because, frankly, I don't have anything else to say. I have covered 
> just about all of the significant areas of Buddhism I wanted to 
> cover, have made my positions known and clear, and feel that any 
> more posting would be overkill. But please understand, I have not 
> lost my enthusiasm for the dhamma and I spend most of my free time 
> studying and meditating. Also, I have not lost my interest, 
> concerns, and connection with my dhamma friends in this group. I 
> wish you all health, prosperity, and happiness. So, James is quiet 
> but James is not gone. ;-) 
> 
> Metta, James
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33119

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 9:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

Dear Howard!

> It's good to hear you, "quiet James"!
> 
> With metta,
> Noisy Howard

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah!!!
The weather is getting warm and love is in the air (!?)...meet your 
perfect match in the acclaimed 3-minute time trials! 
Have you all ever heard about Speed Dating ?
It's a clever tradition on Cambridge, even for Noble Dhamma 
Students as ours!!!
(It's also reminding me the old cartoon "Fracturated Fairy Tales, 
narrated by Edward Everett Horton")

Mettaya, Ícaro (hee hee hee hee...)






> 
> In a message dated 5/18/04 3:49:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> buddhatrue@y... writes:
> 
> > Dear Friends,
> > 
> > In case anyone is wondering, I haven't fallen off the face of the 
> > planet ;-)) Not yet, anyway. ;-). I haven't been posting lately 
> > because, frankly, I don't have anything else to say. I have 
covered 
> > just about all of the significant areas of Buddhism I wanted to 
> > cover, have made my positions known and clear, and feel that any 
> > more posting would be overkill. But please understand, I have 
not 
> > lost my enthusiasm for the dhamma and I spend most of my free 
time 
> > studying and meditating. Also, I have not lost my interest, 
> > concerns, and connection with my dhamma friends in this group. I 
> > wish you all health, prosperity, and happiness. So, James is 
quiet 
> > but James is not gone. ;-) 
> > 
> > Metta, James
> > 
> 
> 
> /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, 
a bubble 
> in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering 
lamp, a 
> phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond 
Sutra) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>33120

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 2

Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 2

The conversation between the venerable Bhikkhu and Acharn Sujin took place
last time I visited Thailand. A group of Dhamma friends from different
countries were together for a few days and we all met in the building of the
³Foundation for the Study and Preservation of Dhamma². We had several
sessions in English and after my friends had left I had more sessions in
Thai. 
The weekend program in the Foundation is very balanced, it comprises: the
study of Suttas with commentaries, of Abhidhamma, of Vinaya and dialogues
about satipatthåna. Sutta reading may seem to be easy when one only pays
attention to the stories and the conventional terms such as birth, old age
and death, by means of which the Buddha explained the four noble Truths and
the Dependent Origination. However, without the study of the Abhidhamma
which explains the details of realities, we cannot understand the deep
meaning of what is contained in the sutta. All the suttas actually contain
Abhidhamma and are pointing to vipassanå, the way to develop right
understanding of dhammas occurring in daily life.
On Sundays, one hour is spent with the reading of the rules of the Vinaya
and discussions about them. These rules pertain to the monk¹s behaviour and
speech in his daily life and explain the different degrees of defilements
that occur and that should be discerned. Also laypeople can apply the Vinaya
in their own situation. Many defilements are unnoticed, but understanding
developed through satipatthåna can investigate their true nature, and this
will lead to their eradication. Several teachers are assisting Acharn Sujin
and I was impressed by their thorough and detailed study of the texts and
their dedication. After a full day of Dhamma discussion on Sunday with only
one hour in between for luncheon, there is another session of two more hours
of studying and discussing subtle points of the teachings and the
consultation of the Pali texts. All those sessions were greatly inspiring to
me and they helped me to have more confidence in the Dhamma.
Khun Duangduen, with her abundant hospitality, gave a luncheon in her house
as she always does on Sundays. Even while taking the food at the buffet
table we could exchange observations on the difficult nature of
satipatthåna, and remind each other that we should not become discouraged.
Also Mom Betty Bongkojpriya and Sukinderpal who are residents of Bangkok
gave a luncheon for the whole group of foreign friends. During my last days
in Bangkok, Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid invited us for luncheon,
there was no limit to their hospitality and kindness.
At the weekend people bring flowers to be placed in front of the relics of
the Buddha. They were so kind to hand them to me, so that I had many times
an opportunity to kneel in front of the relics and pay respect. When Acharn
Sujin also knelt next to me to pay respect, I had an opportunity to pay
respect to her at her feet. With this gesture I expressed respect and
gratefulness for learning through her to develop understanding of the
Dhamma.
****
Nina.
	
33121

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis 78 and Tiika

Hi Larry,

op 17-05-2004 21:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:
> 
> When kamma is performed through the body without intimation what is
> the door? 
N: Let me give an example. You can pay respect to the Buddha through body,
speech and mind. it is kusala kamma. Through the body: you bend your head,
fold your hands, or kneel down. This is not like a ritual, everybody pays
respect in the way that suits his culture or inclination. Through speech:
you say Buddha.m sarana.m gacchaami (I go for refuge to the Buddha). Through
the mind: in your working situation, for example, you can pay respect
inwardly, thinking of his excellent qualities.
Kamma is volition, cetanaa. Through the Bodydoor: this is explained by way
of conventional terms, through movement of body or hands, head, etc. See
above. 
Door of kamma: the means through which kamma is being performed.
L:Why isn't life faculty included?
N: You think of the groups of rupa, and the groups produced by kamma, which
include life-faculty. This is another aspect, not dealing with the above.
All groups of rupa are arising and falling away when we say: kneeling down.
Remember: when the groups produced by kamma move, all the groups produced by
citta, nutrition and temperature move.
L:Can we say doors only
> accomodate one way traffic?
N: When we speak about kamma performed through doorways we think of the
cetanaa of the person who performs it, thus you would say, one way traffic,
but this expression may be confusing. Kamma is performed by means of body,
speech or mind. 
L: The five senses passively opening in and
> the two intimations plus body (not body sensitivity) actively opening
> out? What delimits in and out? space?
N:
The sense-doors: we should not drive this simile too far, thinking of a door
that is opening. The outer object,(outer ayaatana or sensefield, meets the
inner ayaatana, the senseorgan that is sensedoor, so that a sense object can
be experienced. A door is simply a means by way of which an object is
experienced. Sometimes in the Tipitaka closing the doorways is used,
meaning, not paying attention with akusala. Does this make sense to you?
L: When I focus my eye on a particular thing is that kamma performed
through the body? 
N: No, no movement of the body or gesture.
L: Are body parts (hands, feet etc.) produced by temperature rather than
kamma? 
N: The groups of rupa produced by the four factors are included in what we
call hands, feet. Not just temperature.
Nina.
	
33122

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Deeds of Merit, no 1.

Dear Philip,
Excellent idea. 
Your idea prompted me to take it out and use it also for Lodewijk (just say
Louis, is easier) for our "edifying reading" at mealtimes. A suggestion:
people who are short of time find this post too long. What if you just cut
it up in small sections? I shall do now just one section.

op 18-05-2004 01:34 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> Chapter 1 Generosity
(snip)
> If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we
> give something away, I think that it would be better to give
> something else which can be a condition for the arising of more
> kusala cittas than akusala cittas.
> 
> Ph: As for akusala and kusala related to giving, I have not
> thought eneough about it. I am not one who gives a lot in the
> material sense. I talk about giving my full presence when teaching.
N: while teaching there are many different cittas, kusala cittas and akusala
cittas. You can teach with generosity, wanting to help, but there are not
only kusala cittas. Here is a situation of teaching, but there are many
different cittas.
Ph: For example, I wanted
> to give a gift to the Dhamma Foundation.... but it would involve a but of
> a tussle with the Finance Minister
N: I sensed this and that is why I hesitated to give you the info about the
Foundation. Un peu contrecoeur.
That is why A. S. said:< it would be better to give
> something else which can be a condition for the arising of more
> kusala cittas than akusala cittas.>
The idea is not that you have to get yourself into trouble and as a
consequence akusala cittas. As you read, dana does not only include giving
material things, but many other ways of giving. Knowing about these helps us
to perform kusala. What kind of giving depends on conditions, the situation,
the citta at that moment, etc. You know that also forgiving is a kind of
dana? 

> S. : Someone is lax (in generosity) if he has misgivings about
> giving anything at all... Such a person does not understand that
> at each moment of generosity there is elimination of avarice and of
> clinging to possessions, which are defilements accumulated in the
> citta. 
> 
Ph: There is a Buddhist monk who stands in front of a station I
> pass by twice a week... I don?ft know
> if he is legitimate. That is stinginess.
N: No. We have to consider what we give and to whom. Not just give without
thinking. We are not supposed to give money to a monk, this is even wrong,
but we should help the monk to observe Vinaya.

Ph: Also, I am lax about giving souvenirs from my trip to students and co-
> workers the way that is expected in Japan. I have always thought it
> felt obligatory, and resisted, but that shows laxness on my part ...
N: It all depends on the citta. Giving because people expect it may not be
kusala. One does not want to become impopular, is that kusala? A. Sujin also
said: giving is difficult. We have to take many things into consideration:
do we give something useful for the other person, etc. The sotapanna does
not give away all his money, one has to be practical. And it is not right to
get your spouse or family into trouble.
No need to find fault with yourself, we have to be reasonable.
This is all for now.
I was thinking of your family problems. A. Sujin is an example showing how
satipatthana helps in daily life. She is very practical and knows the right
thing to do for all parties. She also had to talk with her family about
money matters, heritage, and so on. I saw a Sutta in Grad. S. about the wise
person being practical, but have no time to check it.
Nina.
	



33123

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:34am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana and Perseverance.

Hi Larry and Howard,
op 18-05-2004 03:00 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:

> AS: "Most important in life is understanding reality. Otherwise all
> phenomema of life are still 'I', and the cycle of birth and death will
> continue."
> I like this. Another way to say the same thing with different emphasis
> is: the most important is nibbana.
N: Nibbana is only a word to us. But there is a Path! Better emphasize the
way leading to it: develop understanding of dhamma now. Thinking of nibbana
that is only a word distracts from understanding of dhamma now.
Howard wanted to know about Co. In the Tipitaka and Co. there are not many
details about nibbana. Neither are there many details about the stages of
insight leading to it, or about the lokuttara cittas that experience
nibbana. When panna reaches stages of insight or even becomes lokuttara
panna, no words are needed. Panna realizes the truth directly.
I can give some references here and there.
T.G. gave some references from the Patisambhida Magga, I was also thinking
of that. 
More: Dsgn, at end, p. 341: Rupa and nibbana are without objects of thought.
Thus, nibbana is nama but not citta (see the Mahayana: luminous mind, this
is a different idea.) And appendix II about the unconditioned.
Its Co, the Expositor II, p. 501: nibbana is nama; because of the dominant
influence of object it bends sobhana dhammas on to itself. (Discussed here
before). Namati is to bend.
and p. 518: as freedom. gone away from the jungle of craving.
Expositor I, p. 67: it is leading out.
Path of Discrimination, p. 361: voidness (su~n~natta) < this occurrence of
eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises>, and so on for the other
senses and the mind. N: Thus, no more arising at rebirth of eye, etc. .
There are many aspects of su~n~natta mentioned here.
U Narada, Conditional Relations: concept and nibbana as object: both are
timeless. And p. 138, the chart: nibbana as the conditioning dhamma for the
8 supramundane consciousnesses.
As said, I am not inclined to speculate about nibbana. I do not recall A.
Sujin speaking much about nibbana. In the Thera-therigatha: the theras and
theris speak about their attaining of enlightenment, and nibbana as the
cool. In the Co it is emphasized what a long way it is to reach it. Aeons of
development of panna. Is it not enough to know this? Don't we lose precious
time when we speculate about nibbana?
Nina.
	
33124

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 6:56am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

Hi, Icaro -

In a message dated 5/18/04 1:50:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
icarofranca@y... writes:

> 
> Dear Howard!
> 
> >It's good to hear you, "quiet James"!
> >
> >With metta,
> >Noisy Howard
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Ah!!!
> The weather is getting warm and love is in the air (!?)...meet your 
> perfect match in the acclaimed 3-minute time trials! 
> Have you all ever heard about Speed Dating ?
> It's a clever tradition on Cambridge, even for Noble Dhamma 
> Students as ours!!!
> (It's also reminding me the old cartoon "Fracturated Fairy Tales, 
> narrated by Edward Everett Horton")
> 
> Mettaya, Ícaro (hee hee hee hee...)
> 
=====================
;-)) You have quite the sense of humor, Icaro.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33125

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 1:07pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Howard,

The distinction of being actual versus being conventional is not a 
valid distinction. That distinction contains the assumption that 
being actual means being unconventional and the assumption that 
being conventional means being not actual. In other words, that 
distinction assumes that being actual is opposite to being 
conventional in meaning.

However, given the definitions of the terms "conventional" 
and "actual" [1], being actual does not imply being unconventional 
and being conventional does not imply being not actual.

An actual-vs-not-actual distinction or a conventional-vs-
unconventional distinction would be valid.

Metta,
Victor

[1]
Main Entry: con·ven·tion·al 
Pronunciation: k&n-'vench-n&l, -'ven(t)-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
1 : formed by agreement or compact
2 a : according with, sanctioned by, or based on convention b : 
lacking originality or individuality : TRITE c (1) : ORDINARY, 
COMMONPLACE (2) : NONNUCLEAR 1 <conventional warfare>
3 a : according with a mode of artistic representation that 
simplifies or provides symbols or substitutes for natural forms b : 
of traditional design
4 : of, resembling, or relating to a convention , assembly, or 
public meeting
synonym see CEREMONIAL

Main Entry: ac·tu·al 
Pronunciation: 'ak-ch(&-w)&l, -sh(&-w)&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English actuel, from Middle French, from Late 
Latin actualis, from Latin actus act
1 obsolete : ACTIVE
2 a : existing in act and not merely potentially b : existing in 
fact or reality <actual and imagined conditions> c : not false or 
apparent <actual costs>
3 : existing or occurring at the time : CURRENT <caught in the 
actual commission of a crime> 

http://www.webster.com


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/17/04 12:50:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > Hi Howard,
> > 
> > Breaths/in-&-out breathings are inconstant, dukkha, not self, 
and it 
> > is to be seen as it actually is thus: inconstant, dukkha, not 
> > self. 
> > 
> > Breaths/in-&-out breathings are bodily fabrications, and bodily 
> > fabrications are conditioned, not unconditioned.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> > 
> ===========================
> I understand that you don't make the actual-versus-
conventional 
> distinction. I do make that distinction. I understand what you say 
above as true, 
> but you and I don't view it in exactly the same way. So it is.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33126

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 2:14pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis 78 and Tiika

Dear Nina:

Respectfully butting in...

The outer object,(outer ayaatana or sensefield, meets the
> inner ayaatana, the senseorgan that is sensedoor, so that a sense 
object can
> be experienced.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah... winter's gone!
Birds fluting new songs, bees buzzing exquisite tunes between 
beautiful flowers!
The Quest for Paradise is possible!!!
Outer objects meet inner ayaatanaa at the best Speed Datings ever 
seem on Cambridge!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A door is simply a means by way of which an object is
> experienced. Sometimes in the Tipitaka closing the doorways is used,
> meaning, not paying attention with akusala. Does this make sense to 
you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the way I understand it: as the interplay between verb and 
adverb at a single sentence. Looking at Pali syntax structure all 
these menuet of cetasikas becomes very illuminating as a matter of 
language formating of our minds.

Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33127

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 10:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/18/04 4:10:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> The distinction of being actual versus being conventional is not a 
> valid distinction. That distinction contains the assumption that 
> being actual means being unconventional and the assumption that 
> being conventional means being not actual. In other words, that 
> distinction assumes that being actual is opposite to being 
> conventional in meaning.
> 
> However, given the definitions of the terms "conventional" 
> and "actual" [1], being actual does not imply being unconventional 
> and being conventional does not imply being not actual.
> 
> An actual-vs-not-actual distinction or a conventional-vs-
> unconventional distinction would be valid.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
======================
The distinction, more carefully stated, is not between actual and 
conventional, but between actual and *merely* conventional. And I do believe that 
the distinction is a valid one. I accept that you do not. Why don't you accept 
that I do, and leave it at that?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33128

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 2:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Hello Nina, and all.

I'm always a few threads behind, but I'd like to consider this one 
more fully.

> N: Philip, you wrote about some problems connected with surfing on 
the web
> war program. It is a very human situation and with the 
Dhammasangani in hand
> I would like to make some practical observations.
> We all have troubling accumulations with regard to different things,
> depending on the individual. But we can learn from them. We can 
learn more
> about our deeply accumulated akusala.

Ph: Thanks to this group, I really feel this is beginning to 
happen. I also see that while I understand others' behaviour as 
conditioned in a way that seems to have freed me from becoming angry 
at or hurt by them (well, not completely of course, but there is much 
less irritability and sadness related to other people) I still was 
holding on to the wrong view that I could act in a way that denied 
the power of my own conditions. This was driven home yesterday when I 
took the train and was thinking about this very thought, and then one 
station later (about 5 minutes) found myself thinking about an 
incident in which a co-worker had been scolded by a cranky 
businessman for being too noisy (westerners are noisy here) and how 
the co-worker had follwed the businessman off the train and harassed 
him, and I found myself thinking how I would have enjoyed harassing 
him too and what I would have said and done to frighten him. My 
goodness! Where had the wholesome reflections gone in a few short 
minutes! They were swept away by my conditioned patterns of thinking. 
I leaned from this - and it is hardly deeply accumulated akusala from 
another life. Just crud from a few short years ago! :) 

N: >Only lokuttara citta can eradicate
> latent tendencies. But we can develop more understanding, we can 
learn that
> kusala citta as well as akusala citta are conditioned. What has 
happened has
> happened and it is of no use to have regret, then you only 
accumulate more
> aversion. 

Ph: Isn't there some place for regret? Isn't a sense of shame 
considered one of the wholesome kusala? That doesn't apply to regret?
In the passages I posted from "Deeds of Merit" K Sujin talked about 
the benefits of reflecting on our wholesome deeds. Wouldn't there be 
similar benefit to reflecting on our unwholesome deed? I can see 
there could be attachment in the former and aversion in the latter - 
but could it not also condition the arising of samvega. It seems 
that samvega- a sense of urgency- comes from sensing the way the 
house is burning. Perhaps regrets at out own behaviour would make 
this samvega very clear.


N:>Let's just consider the present now. We cannot plan or select
> anything with regard to the future which has not come yet, but we 
can
> understand conditions.

Ph: Despite what I said about the possible value of considering 
regrets, I can see of course that this is what really is important. 
Considering the present now. It is very ....I want to say thrilling 
for some reason....to begin to become aware of conditions. There is 
still this feeling of something ecstatic about rising and falling 
rupa and nama - but I know that's going to turn out to be wrong 
understanding. 

(snip)

N:> the Expositor (p. 100):

Ph: I haven't been able to understand this passage yet but it has 
been conditioned for future understanding :)


N :> I read part of this to Lodewijk at luncheon, but he likes it so 
much that I
> have to read it again at dinner. 

Ph: I wish I could be a fly on the wall in your home and hear those 
discussions, though I guess I'd have to be a fly who understood Dutch.
Reading about your conversations with Lodewijk continues to better 
dinner conversations with Naomi. The days of watching "Cops" while 
munching in silence are done - for now. 

N: > We can prove all this: when our confidence has become stronger 
happy feeling
> and enthusiasm (piti) can arise with the kusala citta. At the same 
time we
> need panna, because lobha with happy feeling is bound to arise in
> alternation with kusala citta. Wihout panna we may easily delude 
ourselves.

Ph: A bit off the point, but I was impressed by Christine's 
consideration of lobha that arose with the happy feelings of the 
dhamma meeting last month. At this point in my understanding it seems 
that attachment to dhamma discussion is a wholesome thing that 
inevitably leads us to deeper understanding and therefore panna and 
release from attachment. LIke I was saying in another thread to 
Sarah - it seems to me that exposure to the Buddha's teaching *and* 
discussions with dhamma friends who have right understanding will 
lead one in the right direction away from fictions of self, etc. I 
haven't yet read Sarah's response to that - I will catch up. 

(snip)

N :> Once in the U.S.A. I heard a teacher say that most people live 
under the
> standard of their capacities, thus, everybody could do so much more 
than
> they actually do. This impressed me, I have always remembered this.

Ph: Now I will too :)
I'm very impressed by the level of activity of people in this 
group. The way you find time to write and translate so much as well 
as participating here, and there are family and friends as well. I 
don't know the deatails of other people's daily schedules, but I know 
how busy Sarah and Jon are. I do want to live up to my capacity more. 
I have an inkling that working on defilements and hindrances will 
unleash a more productive Phil, just as it releases more metta and 
other beautiful cetasikas. But no expecations.

Metta,
Phil
p.s this goes without saying, Nina, but as you are so busy please 
don't feel any obligation to respond to this. Well, perhaps only the 
question about regret, if you have a moment.
	
33129

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:14pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Howard,

Qualifying the word "conventional" with the term "merely" does not 
make the distinction between being actual and being merely 
conventional a valid one.

Why is that?

Because being merely conventional does not imply being not actual, 
and being actual does not imply being not merely conventional.

Again, a valid distinction would be the distinction between being 
actual and being not actual or the distinction between being merely 
conventional and being not merely conventional.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/18/04 4:10:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > 
> > Hi Howard,
> > 
> > The distinction of being actual versus being conventional is not 
a 
> > valid distinction. That distinction contains the assumption 
that 
> > being actual means being unconventional and the assumption that 
> > being conventional means being not actual. In other words, that 
> > distinction assumes that being actual is opposite to being 
> > conventional in meaning.
> > 
> > However, given the definitions of the terms "conventional" 
> > and "actual" [1], being actual does not imply being 
unconventional 
> > and being conventional does not imply being not actual.
> > 
> > An actual-vs-not-actual distinction or a conventional-vs-
> > unconventional distinction would be valid.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> ======================
> The distinction, more carefully stated, is not between 
actual and 
> conventional, but between actual and *merely* conventional. And I 
do believe that 
> the distinction is a valid one. I accept that you do not. Why 
don't you accept 
> that I do, and leave it at that?
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33130

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:14pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So what does the passage 
"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination.
The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
clear knowing & release to their culmination."
mean, given the context that you provided?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Any explanation of the meaning of this passage should take account of
a number of things mentioned in the description of the occasion on
which the teaching was given (which i included with my original post,
and to which I give paragraph references in what follows).

The persons to whom the teaching is principally directed are monks
who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14]. Thus
they are already skilled in mindfulness of breathing, and also
capable of developing it further.

Despite this, however, they are not yet among those who are 'devoted
to the development of the four frames of reference... the seven
factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' [12], i.e., they
are not yet established in the development of insight (vipassana).

Now according to the passage, if mindfulness of breathing is
developed and pursued by these monks as to be described in the sutta,
they will then also be developing 'the four frames of reference...
the seven factors for Awakening... clear knowing & release' [15]. 
This I take to mean they will be developing insight (vipassana) as
for those just described [12].

From all this it seems to me that 'mindfulness of breathing' means
'samatha with breath as object', and what is being said is that there
is a way in which samatha with breath as object can be 'developed and
pursued' together with insight.

Also present among the assembly of monks are monks who are 'devoted
to the development of' the Brahma-Viharas, foulness of the body and
the perception of impermanence [13]. Although these monks too are
developing samatha, there is no teaching given for the development of
insight in their case. This confirms that breathing is a special
case in some regard. However, there's nothing so far to suggest that
breathing is special in the sense of being specially effective or
appropriate for the development of insight. Note that, among the
groups of monks described in the assembly, the monks who are 'devoted
to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14] are the least advanced in
overall level of attainment [8] to [14]. (However, from what follows
in the sutta and from comments elsewhere it appears that the
potential fruits of development of insight coupled with samatha with
breath as object can be higher than other forms of attainment.)

Taking all these considerations into account, my understanding of the
passage is as follows:
If a monk who is already skilled in the development of samatha with
breath as object develops not only samatha with breath as object but
also insight in the manner to be described in detail in this sutta,
there is for that monk the possibility of attaining enlightenment
based on jhaana with breath as object.

I'd be interested to hear your comments on this.

Jon


	
33131

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:34pm
Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Howard: "I don't think we should be overly certain about what is real
and what is not."

Hi Howard,

I agree. In fact it's not even a problem. I'm not certain about anything
;-) But I think its good to think about nibbana once in a while. It is
integral to the entire orientation of the path. 

Larry
	
33132

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 4:41pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

Given how you understand the passage

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination.
The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
clear knowing & release to their culmination."

let me ask you the following questions:

Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of
great fruit, of great benefit?

Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, 
bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

Do the four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the 
seven factors for Awakening to their culmination?

Do the seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
clear knowing & release to their culmination?


Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> So what does the passage 
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
> great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
> when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
> their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
> pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their 
culmination.
> The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
> clear knowing & release to their culmination."
> mean, given the context that you provided?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Any explanation of the meaning of this passage should take account 
of
> a number of things mentioned in the description of the occasion on
> which the teaching was given (which i included with my original 
post,
> and to which I give paragraph references in what follows).
> 
> The persons to whom the teaching is principally directed are monks
> who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14]. Thus
> they are already skilled in mindfulness of breathing, and also
> capable of developing it further.
> 
> Despite this, however, they are not yet among those who 
are 'devoted
> to the development of the four frames of reference... the seven
> factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' [12], i.e., they
> are not yet established in the development of insight (vipassana).
> 
> Now according to the passage, if mindfulness of breathing is
> developed and pursued by these monks as to be described in the 
sutta,
> they will then also be developing 'the four frames of reference...
> the seven factors for Awakening... clear knowing & release' [15]. 
> This I take to mean they will be developing insight (vipassana) as
> for those just described [12].
> 
> From all this it seems to me that 'mindfulness of breathing' means
> 'samatha with breath as object', and what is being said is that 
there
> is a way in which samatha with breath as object can be 'developed 
and
> pursued' together with insight.
> 
> Also present among the assembly of monks are monks who are 'devoted
> to the development of' the Brahma-Viharas, foulness of the body and
> the perception of impermanence [13]. Although these monks too are
> developing samatha, there is no teaching given for the development 
of
> insight in their case. This confirms that breathing is a special
> case in some regard. However, there's nothing so far to suggest 
that
> breathing is special in the sense of being specially effective or
> appropriate for the development of insight. Note that, among the
> groups of monks described in the assembly, the monks who 
are 'devoted
> to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing' [14] are the least advanced 
in
> overall level of attainment [8] to [14]. (However, from what 
follows
> in the sutta and from comments elsewhere it appears that the
> potential fruits of development of insight coupled with samatha 
with
> breath as object can be higher than other forms of attainment.)
> 
> Taking all these considerations into account, my understanding of 
the
> passage is as follows:
> If a monk who is already skilled in the development of samatha with
> breath as object develops not only samatha with breath as object 
but
> also insight in the manner to be described in detail in this sutta,
> there is for that monk the possibility of attaining enlightenment
> based on jhaana with breath as object.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear your comments on this.
> 
> Jon
	
33133

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 0:55pm
Subject: Re: Nibbana as Unconditioned and Permanent [Re: [dsg] Do or not do something]

Hi, Larry -

In a message dated 5/18/04 7:49:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> Howard: "I don't think we should be overly certain about what is real
> and what is not."
> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> I agree. In fact it's not even a problem. I'm not certain about anything
> ;-) But I think its good to think about nibbana once in a while. It is
> integral to the entire orientation of the path. 
> 
> Larry
> 
=======================
Yes, I agree. No nibbana, no Dhamma.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33134

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue May 18, 2004 5:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea

HI Sarah, and all


Ph: > but I'm interested in the idea that before self is 
> > fully understood to be a fiction, and is released, it can become 
a 
> > more refined fiction, a more wholesome fiction.
> ....
> S: Never a wholesome fiction?Ewhen it is based on sakkaya ditthi
> (self-view).

Ph: I guess I just sense it is an inevitable fiction, for the time 
being. I remember when you once said to someone in a thread words to 
the effect that you are not even able to imagine there being a self, 
or conceive of it, or something like that. You have gotten to that 
point of understanding. For me, I am still so wrapped up in wrong 
self that I can only begin to understand that self is not. I know the 
idea of creating a fiction about self is wrong and dangerous, so I 
won't do it. The Buddha's teaching and discussion with people who 
have right understanding will continue to help right understanding to 
gradually arise in me. 

Another problem for me is that I find myself in a situation in 
which if I want to pursue a career in writing here, a public personna 
will be necessary. I will be playing the role of the friendly-
looking, Japanese speaking foreign children's book writer. This 
personna will be created that will make it even harder for me to be 
liberated from self. Of course we all have public personnas. But 
there is something about being a visible minority in the most 
homogenous society on earth that makes it even harder to shake a 
belief in this personna. 

It will be interesting to read the posts I am writing now and the 
ones I write in the years to come and see how much less self-absorbed 
they will become. It is the More About Phil Show for now, but not 
forever. 



Ph> > As Sarah said this belief could lead to make it harder to 
finally 
> > let the fiction of self go, but I think that underestimates the 
power 
> > of the Buddha's teaching.. Constant exposure to the Buddha's 
> > teaching and good Dhamma friends would lead one eventually to 
waking 
> > up from the fiction, 
> .....
> S: I'd like to pick up on a point that I think Rob Ep was making 
too. We
> cannot assume that constant exposure....?Ewill lead to eventual 
waking up
> unless it is accompanied by the development of wisdom.

Ph: Thank you! I missed it. Very interesting snake. I do believe, 
however, that constant exposure *and* discussion with dhamma friends 
who have right understanding will not fail to lead me away from 
fictions about self. How do I know that my dhamma friends have right 
understanding if I don't have right understanding yet? Well, years of 
formal practice multiplied by number of Useful Posts at DSG divided 
by incidents of rude speech = level of understanding seems reliable. 
haha. 


Metta,
Phil
	
33135

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 2:59am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Given how you understand the passage

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination. ..."

let me ask you the following questions:

Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of
great fruit, of great benefit?

Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued,
bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In your last post you asked me to give my understanding of the
passage from which your present questions are taken, and I did that.

I doubt that the questions now being asked cover any ground that was
not covered in that last request, but here goes anyway.

I would say that a qualified 'yes' applies to each of your questions,
that is, 'Yes, but only in the sense and to the extent implicit in
the passage (i.e., as I understand the passage, as already
explained)'. 

Was there anything in my last post that you would like to comment on?


Jon

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Given how you understand the passage
> 
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
> great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
> when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
> their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
> pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their
> culmination.
> The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
> clear knowing & release to their culmination."
> 
> let me ask you the following questions:
> 
> Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of
> great fruit, of great benefit?
> 
> Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, 
> bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?
> 
> Do the four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring
> the 
> seven factors for Awakening to their culmination?
> 
> Do the seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
> clear knowing & release to their culmination?
> 
> 
> Metta,
> Victor


	
33136

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:31am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Rob,

I had a molar extracted yesterday, so am a bit late in responding. :-)

> I think we are into a very important and frustrating
> area where the rubber meets the road so to speak. At the altar of
> reality, we have to be willing to give up all our treasured notions. 
> Perhaps I will wind up devoting myself to study, why you must take up
> the meditation cushion -- just punishment for us both!! 

I guess only panna will recognize wrong view and attachment, and in 
doing so, for a moment at least, there will be any detachment. No `self' 
to give up any treasured notion and seeking another activity. Study is as 
much and `idea' as meditation is. Both will involve `self view' if not 
understood properly. This is why I wanted to avoid comparison between 
what each of us do conventionally. There are only conditions and in 
them there are no stories about dhamma and any `self' practicing or 
studying. But we do try to string together perceptions, perverted at that, 
and with mana, lobha and ditthi, an image of `I' in relation to the world 
is created and taken very seriously. 

This is why in another post, I remarked about how we easily use our 
superficial knowledge of the dhamma to justify `what we do'. Wrong 
view can use dhamma concepts to explain away anything. Only the 
more discerning can point our mistake to us. And speaking 
of "activities", you doing formal meditation and I study, is a good place 
where both of us can justify ourselves with any wrong view. That is why 
I wanted to avoid discussing on this level. 

Taking these conventional realities so seriously, we miss understanding 
the underlying ultimate realities. These are meant to be insighted, and 
in the process the conventional realities are seen as unreal. So Rob, it 
seems that so long as we continue to justify what "we" do, we are in 
fact; misusing our knowledge about dhamma and risking further 
attachment to those activities. Here I think lies the significance 
of `insight'; or at least a correct `intellectual understanding'. It reveals 
what is real and what is not, and does not involve coming to an 
agreement. And this is why I think; we cannot use `self' to reach an 
understanding of `not-self', because we will end up making such a 
compromise. 

For example, when you have identified `practice' with `formal 
meditation', you seem to be disregarding the fact that realities are all 
there is or else you believe that a certain time, place and posture is 
more conducive to mindfulness. What you don't seem to acknowledge is 
that `sati' is a conditioned reality and those conditions are very complex, 
certainly not residing in any conventional activity such as `formal 
meditation'. The very concept of `meditation' is ignorance of 
conditionality. The idea of better time, place and posture (closing one's 
eye etc.) is wrong view. If there is no sati now, even this can be pointed 
out to, from reading, mentally recalling or listening, and this is already a 
level of sati, even though only `pariyatti'. Why ignore this and think that 
the problem lies either in the noise around you and consequently seek a 
better time and place? Or be drawn into a reasoning which states that 
wisdom can be slowly developed through a prescribed activity in time? 
Why insist that `formal practice' involve some of the needed conditions 
for sati, though I have not seen anyone stating what those might be? 
The noise is this very desire for something else and something more, 
not any conditioned reality now. If there is no sati and panna in the 
moment, even this can be known, and perhaps one will realize that 
what needs to be done is to keep listening to dhamma. ;-) So Rob, 
seeing the importance of study is not only because we need to have an 
intellectual understanding as basis, but also because when there is any 
realization of how little panna there is, it seems to be the only sensible 
conclusion!

You talked about personally having the inclination to practice, compared 
to some of us who are probably more inclined to study. This is not so. 
Personally, I have at all no inclination to read, and as I have said before, 
the amount of reading I have done on DSG these past three plus years, 
is 3 times more than I have ever read during the remainder part of my 
life. And though I prefer the way Nina writes about realities as 
compared to the dryness of the original texts, I am more interested in 
finding out how this applies to the circumstances of my life. So perhaps 
I too am more inclined to being `practical' ;-)? But then this is also only 
on the level of thinking. :-/ Anyway here too the problem is taking 
seriously a `convention'. We all have had conventional ideas of theory 
and practice, and in worldly matters, this must be made because "we" 
factor in. But when it comes to understanding dhamma, there is no 
place for a `self' and what it wrongly believes to be sati and panna. 

As I have been stressing, we need to really consider what happens on 
the paramattha level, and determine what here, pariyatti and patipatti 
means. If we are limited to the conventional understanding, then we will 
not appreciate the fact that sati can arise at anytime. Even while 
engaging in what you consider `study' *it can happen*! In fact, it 
happens most likely when one is reminded in the moment about 
what `dhamma' is, provided of course, that much previous development 
has taken place. And this is why I think, many during the Buddha's time 
got enlightened on the spot while listening to the Buddha. Besides, often 
what also happens is kusala `listening' (Ken H. is this what you mean?) 
conditioned by strong Saddha in the Teachings. If we are caught in the 
idea of time, place and posture, then it is quite unlikely that on hearing 
the `words', sati will arise to be aware of the arisen reality. In fact, I 
would go further to suggest that if it is not "now" then it will never 
happen. What will happen, will be the result of the same wrong view 
which conditioned the idea of `formal practice'. And the whole Buddhist 
world seems stuck on this level, mistaking wrong sati for right sati and 
wrong view for panna. 

I don't expect you to be convinced. And I am basically repeating myself. 
So perhaps we should drop this discussion for now? There will be 
reference to this on and off in other threads which we both will read ;-).

Metta,
Sukin. 

Ps: Rob, as you are working with actors, you would have noticed how 
easily states of mind can be made to arise almost as if there was `free 
will'. But in reality, this is because the conditions for akusala are so 
much in excess that with little prompting almost any arammana through 
any of the 6 doorways can condition those akusala states. But can 
kusala be made to arise the same way? If it happens it must be outside 
the stage, and this too not willfully? Neither kusala nor akusala can be 
willed, but the latter has a higher chance given how little sati and panna 
has been accumulated. If we have a misunderstanding of what the 
Buddha really taught and believe amongst other things, that he taught 
formal practice, then the chance that akusala will be conditioned during 
those times increases. And the real danger is that we take it for kusala 
and go on to associate it with the Path. I don't particularly worry about 
the usual attachment to sense objects and any subsequent dosa. But the 
Teachings are precious, and this may be the last time we will ever 
come into contact with it in this Buddhasassana. So I think it is 
important that we should not misunderstand the meaning. There is no 
limit to the usefulness of study. But you need to `understand' this, not 
just follow an activity. If you realize how little understanding there is 
even on the intellectual level, then perhaps you might see the 
importance of hearing more, I think.
	
33137

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 6:58am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

Regarding your last message,

The passage

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination.
The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
clear knowing & release to their culmination."

and the discourse as whole do not mean nor imply that

"If a monk who is already skilled in the development of samatha with
breath as object develops not only samatha with breath as object but
also insight in the manner to be described in detail in this sutta,
there is for that monk the possibility of attaining enlightenment
based on jhaana with breath as object."

The passage 

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination.
The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
clear knowing & release to their culmination."

means exactly what it says. And with what is being said in the 
passage, the Buddha then taught in the rest of the discourse with 
regard to the questions:

How is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as 
to be of great fruit, of great benefit? 

How is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as 
to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? 

How are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to 
bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? 

How are the seven factors for Awakening developed & pursued so as to 
bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? 

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Given how you understand the passage
> 
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
> great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
> when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
> their culmination. ..."
> 
> let me ask you the following questions:
> 
> Is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, of
> great fruit, of great benefit?
> 
> Does mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued,
> bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> In your last post you asked me to give my understanding of the
> passage from which your present questions are taken, and I did 
that.
> 
> I doubt that the questions now being asked cover any ground that 
was
> not covered in that last request, but here goes anyway.
> 
> I would say that a qualified 'yes' applies to each of your 
questions,
> that is, 'Yes, but only in the sense and to the extent implicit in
> the passage (i.e., as I understand the passage, as already
> explained)'. 
> 
> Was there anything in my last post that you would like to comment 
on?
> 
> 
> Jon
	
33138

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 4:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

In a message dated 5/17/04 6:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
seisen_@h... writes:
My understanding on this would be that "Tadanganibbuto" is a 
temporary quenching (nibbuto) of the defilements at a moment of 
insight/vipassana/satipatthana. And this could possibly happen many 
times a week or while listening to Mozart or watching a sunset as 
Buddhadasa Bhikhhu says. It seems `Nibbuto' is being used in the 
sense of quenched, and is not referring to the unconditioned Nibbana 
dhatu.
=====
Steven,

Yes, that is my understanding. Tadanganibbuto does depend upon conditions. 
One leaves this mental state when conditions change. In true nibbana, one is 
without the defilements no matter what the conditions.

In a sense this deconstructs nibbana into an unconditioned aspect and a 
undefiled, non suffering aspect. Samuccheda nibanna which we would call nibanna 
consists of both aspects. Tadanga nibbanna and vikkhambhana nibanna have just the 
second aspect.


>>I'm not sure how Buddhadasa Bhikhhus "natural state of mind" fits in 
with this though.<<
===
He has an interesting slant on the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO). He 
states that every moment we have a clear, calm, undefiled mind (I think he would 
call this natural mind) but then we screw it up by making the wrong choices 
in DO and end up with with suffering.

jack


	
33139

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 10:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Dear Philip, 
op 18-05-2004 23:51 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
Where had the wholesome reflections gone in a few short
> minutes! They were swept away by my conditioned patterns of thinking.
> I leaned from this - and it is hardly deeply accumulated akusala from
> another life. Just crud from a few short years ago! :)
N: Latent tendencies condition them, but more is added to these when akusala
citta actually arises. I like your observation of having more understanding
of others' behaviour when considering latent tendencies. It can condition
patience, but patience is hard at times. I better consider my own latent
tendencies! 
We talk about latent tendencies, but there is much more to it. Let me quote
what I wrote before about this subject:
<The latent tendencies are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated.
They are the following:
sense-desire (kåma-råga), aversion (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view
(ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for becoming (continued existence,
bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå)...
They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the
akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated
they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in
the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been
eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising
of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions.They can
condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression
of síla at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and
added to the latent tendencies. The teaching of the latent tendencies helps
us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again
and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable.>
> N: >Only lokuttara citta can eradicate
>> latent tendencies. But we can develop more understanding, we can
> learn that
>> kusala citta as well as akusala citta are conditioned. What has
> happened has
>> happened and it is of no use to have regret, then you only
> accumulate more
>> aversion. 
> 
> Ph: Isn't there some place for regret? Isn't a sense of shame
> considered one of the wholesome kusala? That doesn't apply to regret?
N: We use here words that can have different meanings as we use them in
conventional language. Sense of shame: this is kusala when it accompanies
kusala citta and abhors akusala. When we read shame, abhor, in the
Abhidhamma this does not have the same meaning as in conventional language.
With the wholesome shame here is no aversion, no unpleasant feeling. It is a
sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, hiri. Hiri, moral shame and ottappa, fear of
blame, accompany each kusala citta and they keep one from akusala.
As to regret: we have to know first whether it arises with kusala citta or
akusala citta. The monk has to confess his transgressions and this helps him
and reminds him to be more watchful in the future. We can call this a
wholesome remorse or repentance, and there is no aversion or unpleasant
feeling with it. There is an akusala cetasika regret: kukkucca. It is
translated as regret or worry. It arises with a citta rooted in aversion and
is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Its proximate cause are the kusala one
omitted or the akusala one committed. We can see the disadvantage of
worrying about the kusala we did not perform and the akusala we did in the
past. It does not bring any good, it causes more aversion, and this is added
to the latent tendency of aversion.
The Abhidhamma is very precise, very practical and realistic.
Ph: In the passages I posted from "Deeds of Merit" K Sujin talked about
> the benefits of reflecting on our wholesome deeds. Wouldn't there be
> similar benefit to reflecting on our unwholesome deed? I can see
> there could be attachment in the former and aversion in the latter -
> but could it not also condition the arising of samvega. It seems
> that samvega- a sense of urgency- comes from sensing the way the
> house is burning. Perhaps regrets at our own behaviour would make
> this samvega very clear.
N: If we reflect with wise attention, yes. Seeing the benefit of the Path
leading to the end of defilements.
> N:> the Expositor (p. 100):
> 
> Ph: I haven't been able to understand this passage yet but it has
> been conditioned for future understanding :)
N: Can I help elaborating on the wording?? What was difficult to understand?

Ph: At this point in my understanding it seems
> that attachment to dhamma discussion is a wholesome thing that
> inevitably leads us to deeper understanding and therefore panna and
> release from attachment.
N: It is natural that attachment arises in between kusala cittas with
understanding. We cannot catch all those moments. But, we cannot say that it
is attachment itself that leads to more understanding. Attachment leads to
more attachment. We have to know the right cause for the right result.
> N :> Once in the U.S.A. I heard a teacher say that most people live
> under the
>> standard of their capacities, thus, everybody could do so much more
> than
>> they actually do. This impressed me, I have always remembered this.
> 
> Ph: Now I will too :)
N: When I had written this I had second thoughts: it could be too pushy.
Also: we have to remember that there is no self who could try to do more.
And it could also lead to conceit: I can do better, I want to be on a higher
level. It all depends on the citta, because such words can also be a
condition for the pupils not to be lazy. Just like the Buddha said: have
energy, be courageous, do not be negectful.
Ph: I have an inkling that working on defilements and hindrances will
> unleash a more productive Phil, just as it releases more metta and
> other beautiful cetasikas. But no expecations.
N: Instead of working on defilements, I would rather stress: having more
understanding of them. The Buddha stressed: comprehension.
> p.s this goes without saying, Nina, but as you are so busy please
> don't feel any obligation to respond to this. Well, perhaps only the
> question about regret, if you have a moment.
N: Do not worry. It is a pleasure and helps me too to consider more.
I had to interrupt my series on Latent Tendencies (because of my Report on
Thailand) but was reminded by your post to take them up again.
Nina.
	
33140

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 10:57am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 3

Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 3

Once a month on Saturday Kunying Nopparath offers great hospitality at her
house for many hours of Dhamma discussion and a luncheon. This time when
Lodewijk and I attended this session the subject was the ³Discourse on the
Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the
Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks:

³Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.
Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever
misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.²

Further on we read:

³Wherefore, monks, thinking, ŒInvestigating, we will become wise,¹ this is
how you must train yourselves, monks.²
When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: ³What
is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ŒInvestigating, the
monks is wise?¹ ²

The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways,
about the sense-fields (åyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally)
possible and impossible. When Ånanda asked him how the monk was skilled in
the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We
read:

³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element
of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear,
the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of
nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the
element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory
consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of
bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the
element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these
eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is
skilled in the elements.¹ ²

All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on
the sense objects and sense bases arise the sense-cognitions. We then read
about the element of mind (mano dhåtu), which includes the five-sense-door
adverting-consciousness (the first citta in a sense-door process), the
receiving-consciousness (vipåkacitta, arising in a process after the
sense-cognition of seeing. etc) and the determining-consciousness
(votthapana, arising in a sense-door process just before the javana-cittas
that are kusala or akusala).
As to the element of ³mental states² (dhamma dhåtu), these are the dhammas
that are experienced through the mind-door: all rúpas other than the sense
objects, cittas, cetasikas and nibbåna. As to the element of mental
consciousness (manoviññåna dhåtu), this includes all cittas, except the five
sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element.
It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as
door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely,
rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas [1] and dying-consciousness.
All these elements are realities of our daily life. They arise all the time
but we do not realize that they are elements, devoid of self.
****
Footnote:
1. Bhavanga-citta or life-continuum arises in between the processes of
cittas and also when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. It arises
throughout life and its function is keeping the continuity in the life of an
individual. It is of the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness.
****
Nina
	
33141

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 0:10pm
Subject: PHOTOS in Album

Hello Everyone (and Pagare),

I was browsing the photo albums and discovered that Pagare had 
posted his photo in the Members Album. Welcome Pagare! Lovely to 
see you in there with the rest of us.If you have the time and would 
care to write a few words and tell us a little about yourself, that 
would be great!

There are now 72 photos of us all in this particular Album, and more 
of us in the 'Significant Others and Family Album' and the 'Meetings 
Album'. Those mambers not so used to computers can click on the 
link below - then click on the little yellow suitcase in which each 
album is stored - then click on the tiny photo to enlarge it.
Why not have a look, see what your fellow members look like - it 
adds a new dimension to discussion.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst 

And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in the 
album (yes, I do mean you), but have just never got around to it - 
please consider doing it now. Ask on or off list if you don't quite 
know how to do it - always plenty of willing advisors here.:-) 
We'd all love to see you! The albums remind me of the metta 
sutta ...

"Whatever breathing beings there may be.
No matter whether they are frail or firm,
With none excepted, be they long or big
Or middle-sized, or be they short or small
Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen,
Or whether they are dwelling far or near" 

.... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33142

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 2:16pm
Subject: Re: PHOTOS in Album

Dear Chris:


...days becoming warmer, love is in the air...
At Cambrigde more Fractured Fairy Tales are coming to life!
Clever boys and girls run one each other at the traditional Speed 
Dates at the begining of term.
The May Balls, the blue sky, the punting at Cam River.
The Quest for Paradise... and the best bops at Gonville & Caius 
College!

Meanwhile...


> And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in 
the 
> album (yes, I do mean you),> 


NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!
NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!!

Indeed... all of us, Noble bunch of Dhamma practicioners are 
needing of some mental culture!

(Just Kidding, Chris... hee hee hee hee!!!)

Mettaya, Ícaro






> "Whatever breathing beings there may be.
> No matter whether they are frail or firm,
> With none excepted, be they long or big
> Or middle-sized, or be they short or small
> Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen,
> Or whether they are dwelling far or near" 
> 
> .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33143

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 2:25pm
Subject: Re: PHOTOS in Album

Dear Icaro,

A sudden thought occurred to me: "I wonder if Icaro is drinking 
enough Chamomile tea?" :-) :-)

What is this about Cambridge and Fractured Fairy Tales and Speed 
Dates? Did I miss an important post? :-)

cheers,
Chris


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
<icarofranca@y...> wrote:
> Dear Chris:
> 
> 
> ...days becoming warmer, love is in the air...
> At Cambrigde more Fractured Fairy Tales are coming to life!
> Clever boys and girls run one each other at the traditional 
Speed 
> Dates at the begining of term.
> The May Balls, the blue sky, the punting at Cam River.
> The Quest for Paradise... and the best bops at Gonville & Caius 
> College!
> 
> Meanwhile...
> 
> 
> > And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo in 
> the 
> > album (yes, I do mean you),> 
> 
> 
> NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!
> NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!!
> 
> Indeed... all of us, Noble bunch of Dhamma practicioners are 
> needing of some mental culture!
> 
> (Just Kidding, Chris... hee hee hee hee!!!)
> 
> Mettaya, Ícaro

> > "Whatever breathing beings there may be.
> > No matter whether they are frail or firm,
> > With none excepted, be they long or big
> > Or middle-sized, or be they short or small
> > Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen,
> > Or whether they are dwelling far or near" 
> > 
> > .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!
> > 
> > metta and peace,
> > Christine
> > ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33144

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:00pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
<icarofranca@y...> wrote:
> Dear Howard!
> 
> > It's good to hear you, "quiet James"!
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Noisy Howard
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> 
> Ah!!!
> The weather is getting warm and love is in the air (!?)...meet 
your 
> perfect match in the acclaimed 3-minute time trials! 
> Have you all ever heard about Speed Dating ?
> It's a clever tradition on Cambridge, even for Noble Dhamma 
> Students as ours!!!
> (It's also reminding me the old cartoon "Fracturated Fairy 
Tales, 
> narrated by Edward Everett Horton")
> 
> Mettaya, Ícaro (hee hee hee hee...)

Friend Icaro,

Hmmm…this is a very weird post! I catch the hint of an insult, but 
I am not quite sure. Let me see if I can copy your sense of humor 
here:
Hey Icaro, by the way, why aren't you off killing anyone lately??? 
Have you run out of bullets?? Maybe you can be like Rocky and Bull 
Winkle in the "Fractured Fairy Tales" and go see the Professor to 
learn how to make some more? ;-)) 

Metta, James
	
33145

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:49pm
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" <cbclifford@e...> 
wrote:
> Andrew, because of your earnest inquiries, what follows is an 
> extract of one of my TV scripts - one that focuses on anatta 
> (copyright is retained by the show's producer) - it is offered for 
> your consideration:
> 
> ...

Dear Suravira

Thank you for posting the extract from your TV script. It is full of 
detail and clearly the product of much effort and thought. I will 
study it carefully and post any remarks/queries that I think may be 
of benefit. Don't hold your breath, though, as I am a bit of a slow 
responder!

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33146

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 4:49pm
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry

Hi Suravira,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" <cbclifford@e...> 
wrote:
> Andrew, because of your earnest inquiries, what follows is an 
> extract of one of my TV scripts - one that focuses on anatta 
> (copyright is retained by the show's producer) - it is offered for 
> your consideration:
> 
> ...

=====

I found your script extract to be fascinating. I would like to read 
more. When will your scripts be available at your website? What texts 
can I read to learn more about anusaya, pariyutthana and vãtikkama?

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33147

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 6:09pm
Subject: Akusala Rising and Devouring the World!!!

Hello all

This post was intended to share some more passages from "Deeds of 
Merit" but after the initial question I asked it turned into a bit of 
a pessimistic ramble about the way I am seeing the world now because 
of my beginner's understanding about rupa and nama. If anyone would 
like to add their thoughts on this, and perhaps help me with the 
question at the beginning, I'd be very grateful. The "S" below is of 
course Acharn Sujin from the book "Deeds of Merit" but she only makes 
a brief appearance before I begin to ramble! :)

***

S. : For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the 
opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know 
what kusala is. 

Ph: This is very interesting but difficult to understand. If I know 
what kusala is, I can recognize it when it arises. I guess I can see 
that. But because I know what kusala is, it has the opportunity to 
arise more often??@ This I don?ft understand. It makes it sound as if 
I could cause kusala to arise, based on my knowledge of what it is, 
and certainly that isn?ft the case. Could anyone (maybe other than 
Nina- I feel I am pestering her too much these days!) help me 
understand the above idea?
And is the converse true? That for someone who knows what akusala 
is, it arises less often? 

S: Realities which often arise are stronger than those which 
seldom arise. 

Ph: I wonder what ?gstronger?h means here. I will want to think 
about what this sentence means. Stronger as in clearer and easier to 
recognize? Or stronger as in having more of an impact in the sense of 
conditioning more of same?
I have read that akusala arise more often than kusala. So if that is 
the case, based on the above, it is akusala cittas that are gaining 
strength rather than kusala ones. It makes it sound like we are on a 
downward spiral and that humanity is inevitably become less 
enlightened rather than more. 
I have read that there will come a day when the Buddha?fs teaching 
completely disappears from the world and that this will set the stage 
for the eventual reappearance of another Buddha. (?Is this right?) I 
would rather believe that the benefits of the Dhamma are clear on a 
fairly helpful intellectual level even to newcomers, and that this 
will lead to the elimination of crude defilements on a global scale, 
that we will see through our grossest evils and that the world will 
become more enlightened. But there is not much evidence for that 
being the case.

Akusala rise more often than kusala, and realities which often 
arise are stronger. Things are spinning out of control, the center is 
falling apart like in that Yeats poem. The house is burning, and can?f
t be extinguished. That?fs what this feels like to me.

In the morning, when I do my simple meditation, there is a point 
towards the end when I see my world, the park where I walk, the train 
I ride, the classroom where I teach, and kind of contemplate the 
energy going on there, in ideal terms. When I first joined this 
group, I spoke of a ?gmetta ripple effect?h and quoted ?ga thousand 
candles can be lit with a single flame.?h These were notions based on 
the idea that we can have a deeply beneficial effect on others 
through the practice of Metta. Now, with my basic intellectual 
understanding of rupa and nama and conditions, I see the world and 
people as kind of ?cwhat?fs the word?cwell, burning with this 
constant rising and falling of rupa and nama, most of which is 
akusala. 

My belief in being able to help others through teaching has been 
shaken. I can condition people to have a laugh and a warm feeling and 
some calm and possibly courage for a few moments, but then other 
conditions will inevitably take over and any good I?fve done will be 
swept away by rising and falling rupa and nama, and the majority of 
citta will be akusala rather than kusala. I am not in a position to 
teach people about Dhamma, and an English conversation classroom is 
not the place to do it even if I had the ability to do so. When I 
lead conversations, all I am doing is encouraging people to rake up 
more dosa and lobha, because in order to have a "good" conversation, 
I have to encourage people to talk about what they like and dislike, 
I have to force the issue to bring the language out from reticent 
people. So I am doing a disservice to them, in a deeper sense, even 
though we may have fun at the time. Realizing this in not a crisis 
for me, but I will have to think about how to encourage students to 
bring out their wisdom about the futility of liking and disliking 
things, and shopping, and maybe even Disneyland or the Cambridge 
dating time trials in which young lovers?chey! where did that come 
from?!?!?

OK, I have rambled a bit.
I think before continuing posting passages from ?gDeeds of Merit?h I 
will return to the book on Metta (I have only read Chapter One) and 
post passages from that because I am obviously confused about Metta 
now.

Metta,
Phil
	
33148

From: connie <nichicon@h...> 
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:45pm
Subject: iddhipada mp3's/James

Hi Quiet James,
There's a relatively new (April '04) series of 5 mp3's on (meditation
and) the iddhipadas at
http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/ThanissaroBhikkhu.html. One of them
mentions your still pond and there are some amusing stories about
psychic powers. The written study guide hasn't made it's way onto ATI
yet.
peace,
connie
	
33149

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 0:28am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Sukin,

You wrote to Rob Ep:
--------------
> And this is why I think, many during the Buddha's time 
> got enlightened on the spot while listening to the Buddha. 
Besides, often 
> what also happens is kusala `listening' (Ken H. is this what you 
mean?) 
> conditioned by strong Saddha in the Teachings. 
--------------

At the time, I was theorising on why `listening, studying and 
associating with the wise' are factors of pariyatti leading to 
mundane insight (patipatti) while formal practice (concentration on 
concepts of reality) is not. 

Not that it needs any theorising -- to me it seems obvious. But 
even so, I simply theorised that the Dhamma is a teaching; the 
Buddha's role is to teach and our role is to listen.

This won't convince anyone, of course; the obvious rejoinder 
is, `and then we try to put what we have learnt into practice!'

The fact remains that the Buddha did not list formal practice as one 
of the factors of pariyatti. Naturally, having had this brought to 
our attention, we discontinue our stylised vipassana meditation and 
concentrate on study. Or so one might think. Why is it not always 
the case?

Changing the subject slightly, thanks for reporting back on your 
conversation with K Sujin (about possible weak levels of insight 
during Dhamma study). I think I follow what you have said. Like 
you, I won't be struggling after a definite answer. Excessive 
effort has never been one of my failings. :-) 

Kind regards,
Ken H

PS: Commiserations on the loss of that molar. Take good care of the 
rest of them.
	
33150

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Jack (Howard & All),

--- Jackhat1@a... wrote: 

> He has an interesting slant on the Cycle of Dependent Origination (DO).
> He 
> states that every moment we have a clear, calm, undefiled mind (I think
> he would 
> call this natural mind) but then we screw it up by making the wrong
> choices 
> in DO and end up with with suffering.
....
I think it’s suffering from start to finish. As there have been other
threads on the meaning of suffering with Howard and others too,let me use
this post to include some more references on the meaning of suffering,
especially the First Noble Truth which refers to the ‘suffering in
formations’ in the first extract, showing again that All formations are
suffering. 

All extracts are from Sammohavinodani (transl as Dispeller of Delusion,
PTS, Classification of the Truths). (Any * are mine for emphasis)

447: “Herein, bodily and mental painful feeling are called ‘suffering as
suffering’ because of their individual essence, because of their name and
because of painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called
‘suffering in change’ because of being the cause of the arising of pain
through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of
the three planes are called ‘suffering in formations’ because of being
oppressed by rise and fall. *But there is likewise oppression even in the
paths and fruitions, therefore these states should be understood to be
called ‘suffering of the formations’, by their being included in the Truth
of Suffering.*”
*****
Some graphic metaphors:

432 “...The Truth of Suffering should be regarded as a burden, the Truth
of Origin as the taking up of the burden, the Truth of Cessation as the
putting down of the burden and the Truth of the Path as the means for
putting down the burden (see S iii 25). And the Truth of Suffering is like
a disease, the Truth of Origin is like the cause of the disease, the Truth
of Cessation is like the cure of the disease and the Truth of the Path is
like the medicine. Or the Truth of Suffering is like a famine, the Truth
of Origin is like a drought, the Truth of Cessation is like plenty and the
Truth of the Path is like timely rain. 

“Furthermore these truths should be understood as to simile by applying
the following: the enemy, the cause of enmity, the abolition of the enmity
and the means to abolish the enmity; the poson tree, the tree’s root, the
cutting of the root and the means to cut the root; fear, the cause of
fear, freedom from fear and the means to attain it; the hither bank, the
great flood, the further shore and the effort to reach it. Thus should
the definition be understood here ‘as to simile’.”
*****
445 “And the first two [Truths] are similar because they are profound
because hard to grasp, since they are mundane and since they are
accompanied by cankers”

444 “All the truths are similar to each other because they are not untrue,
are void of self and are difficult to penetrate, according as it is said:
‘What do you think, Ananda, which is more difficult to do, the more
difficult to perform, that one should shoot an arrow through a narrow
keyhole from a distance time after time without missing, or that one
should penetrate the tip of a hair split a hundred times with the tip [of
a similar hair]?’ ‘This, venerable sir, is the more difficult to do, the
more difficult to perform: that one should penetrate the tip of a hair
split a hundred times with the tip [of a similar hair].’ ‘A more difficult
thing to penetrate than that, Ananda, do they penetrate who penetrate
correctly thus: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’
“(S v 454).”
*****
Earlier we also discussed birth, old age and death as included in the
Truth: ‘Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is
suffering..........briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering.’
I think the following helps to clarify what is meant:

456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this
birth is not itself suffering. *But by being the basis for the arising of
suffering it is called suffering.* But of what suffering is it the basis? 
The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by
means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff),
*and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss* [and] in the human
world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the
human world - it is the basis for all that.”
*****
473 “ ‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. *But
here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being
the basis for suffering*. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering
and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak
like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or
to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not
as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering
through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.”
*****
480 “ ‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; *but here
this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being
the basis for suffering*. The feelings belonging to the physical body
which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held
against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc,
great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering
through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.”
*****
Birth, Old Age and Death
482 “Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like
murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity........”
483 “Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the entry
into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing should be
regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink there;
the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment of his
ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc, when he is weak and is struck down
and attacked while changing his posture.”
*****
Comments very welcome.

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33151

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:37am
Subject: 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Dear All,

I’d like to include the verse here which would have made the other post
too long.

Again, all extracts are from Sammohavinodani (transl as Dispeller of
Delusion, PTS, Classification of the Truths). 

456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this
birth is not itself suffering. But by being the basis for the arising of
suffering it is called suffering. But of what suffering is it the basis? 
The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by
means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff),
and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss [and] in the human
world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the
human world - it is the basis for all that.”

464 “Hence this is said:

‘If no being were born into the hells
The pain unbearable of burning fires
And all the rest, where would it find a footing?
So birth is what the Sage here says is ‘pain’ [dukkha].

Animals suffer many kinds of pain
Through being flogged with whips and goads and sticks;
Yet, without birth among them, how should pain
There come to be? Birth therefore is pain.

Among the Petas pain is manifold
Through hunger, thirst, wind, sun and what not too;
But since for one not born there this is not,
Painful is birth, the Sage has therefore said.

In the world-interspace intensely dark,
Intolerably cold, among the demons
Is pain that would not be were there no birth there;
So, whence this birth thence there comes pain as well.

And the frightful pain a being feels on coming out
After he has dwelt for long within the mother’s womb,
That’s like the hell of excrement - this too would not exist
Were there no birth. Accordingly this birth is suffering’.”
*****
473 “ ‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. But here
this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being the
basis for suffering. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering and
for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak like
an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to
walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as
considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through
being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.”

474 “Furthermore:

“’With leadenness in all one’s limbs,
with all one’s faculties declining,
With vanishing of youthfulness,
with undermining of one’s strength,

With loss of memory, and so on,
with growing unattractiveness
To one’s own wife and family,
and then with dotage coming on,

The pain that mortals undergo,
alike of body and of mind -
Since ageing causes all of this,
old age is thus called suffering’. “
*****
480 “ ‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; but here
this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being
the basis for suffering. The feelings belonging to the physical body which
end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held
against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc,
great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering
through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.”

481 “Furthermore:
‘The mental pain that comes alike
without distinction when they die,
To evil men who see the sign
of evil deeds etcetera,

And to good men who cannot bear
to part from what is dear to them,
And then the pain born of the body,
which severs joints and sinews, bonds and so on,

Unbearable, with no relief,
that comes alike to all whose vitals
Death attacks - since death itself
is basis for this suffering.
Herein resides the reason wherefore
death is known as suffering’.”

*****
Birth, Old Age and Death
482 “Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like
murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity........”
483 “Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the entry
into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing should be
regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink there;
the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment of his
ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc, when he is weak and is struck down
and attacked while changing his posture.”
*****

Metta,

Sarah
=======


33152

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil. Akusala Devouring the World!!!

Dear Philip,
I feel responsible to clarify more if people misunderstand what A. S. wrote
or what I wrote about Abhidhamma. Let me try to reassure you.
op 20-05-2004 03:09 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
> 
> S. : For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the
> opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know
> what kusala is. 
> 
> Ph: This is very interesting but difficult to understand. If I know
> what kusala is, I can recognize it when it arises. I guess I can see
> that. But because I know what kusala is, it has the opportunity to
> arise more often??@ This I don?ft understand. It makes it sound as if
> I could cause kusala to arise, based on my knowledge of what it is,
> and certainly that isn?ft the case.
N: Through the Abhidhamma we learn more in detail what kusala is and what
akusala. We learn now that what we used to take for kusala may be akusala.
Didn't we confuse attachment with pleasant feeling and pure kusala with
pleasant feeling? We also learn about the processes of citta and how quickly
they arise and fall away. We begin to understand that kusala and akusala can
arise closely one after the other. We cannot catch such moments, only
insight can know them directly. But anyway, we learn more about kusala and
akusala on the level of intellectual understanding.
An example from Lodewijk: he came from my father and was driving home,
considering how much he clings to it to be liked by others. He thought there
was a lot of conceit involved with his helping. Others would think, "He does
it all so well." He was distressed and told me so. I applauded, saying:
"This is wonderful, this is right understanding. The fact that you
understand is very good." He was reassured. But he also at times has this
feeling: "When it is all so difficult, so much study needed for so many
aeons, it is hopeless." But this thought only arises for a moment. Mind
you, right understanding itself is kusala, it is always accompanied by
non-attachment, alobha and non-aversion, adosa.
Just now I had a Dhamma talk with Lodewijk while walking in the parc. He
said:<We have to study with patience so that we understand the real nature
of akusala. Further understanding will clarify akusala as conditioned,
non-self. And also further understanding will clarify the endless
possibilities for kusala in daily life.>
When you read about the latent tendencies you may have felt distressed. No,
understanding the conditions for akusala will help us to be less cramped
about it, less distressed. We can be realistic about akusala. There can be a
balance in our life, and this is the Middle Way. We know akusala is
conditioned, and on the other hand there are so many possibilities for all
kinds of kusala, including the development of right understanbding. No need
to be passive and sit still.
Knowing about the many ways of kusala helps. Also when one does not have
much money there are other ways of giving. Appreciating other people's
kusala. Then there is no jealousy. I learnt this from my Thai friends, it
fits very well with the Thai culture. Or, sparing a life, saving an insect.
it is a kind of generosity, you give another being the opportunity to live
unharmed. 

Ph: And is the converse true? That for someone who knows what akusala
> is, it arises less often?
N: There can be more understanding so that you will be less inclined to take
it for self. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated. Only after
that the other defilements can be eradicated. When we take akusala for my
akusala we get further down the spiral: O my akusala, how bad, and there
will be lots of self reproach.
> S: Realities which often arise are stronger than those which
> seldom arise. 
N: They are accumulated as latent tendencies and these are strong and
powerful. No need to become distressed. Without the Abhidhamma we would not
know about them. Let us be grateful to the Buddha. We should have joy and
enthusiasm when learning more.
More understanding of kusala and akusala will by itself a condition for you
to help others more effectively. No need to worry about this. No need to
think with worry: what shall I do to help the world.
I heard before about people who began to study Abhidhamma and were
distressed when they discovered that they had much more akusala than they
ever thought. But see what I said to Lodewijk.
Do not feel you have to read or post from wholesome deeds. Just let it
depend on your inclinations.
Nina.
	



33153

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Global chaos or a cup of tea

Hi Phil,

Just a few brief comments here -

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> Ph: I guess I just sense it is an inevitable fiction, for the time 
> being. 
...
S: bound to be, but better to know it for what it is....
....
>I remember when you once said to someone in a thread words to 
> the effect that you are not even able to imagine there being a self, 
> or conceive of it, or something like that. You have gotten to that 
> point of understanding. 
....
S: ?? :-/
....
>For me, I am still so wrapped up in wrong 
> self that I can only begin to understand that self is not. I know the 
> idea of creating a fiction about self is wrong and dangerous, so I 
> won't do it. 
...
S: Until the stage of the sotapanna has been reached, fiction about self
is bound to arise by conditions. One moment there can be understanding of
hardness or temperature experienced (no fiction of self) and the next
moment there can be the fiction about ‘my experience’ or ‘my rupas’.
....
>The Buddha's teaching and discussion with people who 
> have right understanding will continue to help right understanding to 
> gradually arise in me.
....
S: I appreciate your confidence in the teachings and particularly your way
of consideration and questioning and putting aside those aspects which are
not helpful for now. Thanks again for sharing and encouraging others too.
....
> Another problem for me is that I find myself in a situation in 
> which if I want to pursue a career in writing here, a public personna 
> will be necessary. I will be playing the role of the friendly-
> looking, Japanese speaking foreign children's book writer. 
...
S: I don’t see any of this as a problem in itself. There is no rule which
says that in developing insight one cannot have a ‘public persona’ or
earning a living or marketing a ’friendly- looking, Japanese speaking
foreign children's book writer.’ Even if you become the next J.K.Rowling
and re marketed round the world, the realities such as seeing and visible
object remain the same to be known. No conflict. Many of the Buddha’s lay
followers who reached stages of enlightenment had very public personas
like Anathapindika, Visakkha and so on.
....
This 
> personna will be created that will make it even harder for me to be 
> liberated from self. Of course we all have public personnas. But 
> there is something about being a visible minority in the most 
> homogenous society on earth that makes it even harder to shake a 
> belief in this personna. 
....
S: The only real hindrance in wrong view of self whether we have a public
or reclusive persona, whether living in any society or in the forest. If
you were an invisible majority in Canada, the difficulty would be the
same;-)
.... 
> It will be interesting to read the posts I am writing now and the 
> ones I write in the years to come and see how much less self-absorbed 
> they will become. It is the More About Phil Show for now, but not 
> forever. 
....
;-) We all have different tendencies and inclinations as we can see on the
list - some are noisy, some are quiet. Again, there’s no rule when it
comes to developing insight. 
....
> Ph: Thank you! I missed it. Very interesting snake. 
....
S [aside to you and Chris]
Last night a two foot bright green local poisonous snake slithered right
across the path in front of us as we took our evening walk. Jon was
absorbed in Thai dhamma and I had to physically restrain him from taking a
step forward. So it was good timing to reflect again on the ways of
handling snakes and Dhamma;-). (Chris, the same walk we took SarahF
on;-)).
....
>I do believe, 
> however, that constant exposure *and* discussion with dhamma friends 
> who have right understanding will not fail to lead me away from 
> fictions about self. How do I know that my dhamma friends have right 
> understanding if I don't have right understanding yet? Well, years of 
> formal practice multiplied by number of Useful Posts at DSG divided 
> by incidents of rude speech = level of understanding seems reliable. 
> haha. 
...
;-) 

Metta,

Sarah
p.s Keep up your extracts from whatever you’re reading with your running
commentary. I enjoy both a lot.
=========================


	
33154

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana & Sila TV Script 1

Hi Suravira,

--- Suravira <cbclifford@e...> wrote: > Sarah,
> 
> Thank you for your generous offer of submitting portions of my TV 
> scripts on Dana & Sila to your Dhamma Study Group.
> 
> I have selected a extract that follows after the program series' 
> introduction. It lays out the general game plan for the program 
> series. If yaou judge its content to be unsuitable for this study 
> group then let me know.
....
S: I read it with interest and it seems very suitable for the group and
any further discussion. It’s a great project and a lot of work you’re
undertaking. I’d be interested to hear breifly how it came about.

With regard to the content, probably my main two reservations on this
extract are:

a) Dana, sila and bhavana taught as an order. It might be useful to
consider a sutta in which you think these are stressed as having to be
taught/developed in order.

b) ‘Bhavana is a Pali word that refers to mental development; but is
properly called meditation.’ You mention the ‘practice of meditation’
will be covered in another extract. As you’ll have seen here, there are
many different understandings of bhavana or mental development or
meditation. I’ll look forward to hearing more of your understanding in
this regard.

One question: will you be the narrator too? I ask out of curiosity because
in the text you write ‘After studying and practicing......forty years now,
I have seen....’.

Thank you again for sharing these extracts. We understand they are
transcripts and there needs to be repetition and also that the TV producer
holds copyright and they are just put here for discussion. I'll look
forward to Rob M's comments.

I’ll also look forward to Andrew’s reflections on the other extract -
these lawyers like to take their time to check the fine print;-) We’re
lucky to have them around to keep an eye on us, I think.

Metta,

Sarah
=====

> Dharma-vinaya
> 
> The Buddha called the teaching he founded Dharma-vinaya, "the 
> doctrine and discipline." The popular term for this religion is 
> Buddhism; however, Buddhists call it the Dharma.
> 
> The teachings offered by the Buddha are a gradual teaching that has 
> three pillars of practice: Dana, Sila and Bhavana. 


	
33155

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:23am
Subject: Sotapanna

Hello Sarah, and all,

I'm pleased you saved Jon from the snake, or the snake from Jon.:-) 
Just remember the latest treatment is not to cut the bite, 
heroically suck the poison out and spit it on the ground - 
it's 'wrap the whole limb in a bandage (tightly) and get the 
patient to hospital asap for antivenene'. (Thought I'd tell you, 
just in case he's not mindful another time :-)).

I came across this article with something on how the Sotapanna stage 
is relatively not difficult to attain. (I wonder why there seems to 
be different opinions on this?). You can even go to retreats in 
some countries where becoming a Sotapanna is an expectation after 
one month but is a pretty near guaranteed after three. As becoming 
a Sotapanna is the only way to ensure there will be no further 
unfortunate rebirths - I hope the "it's easier than you think" view 
is correct. But somehow ....

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

"Sotapanna Stage Relatively Not Difficult to Attain

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.9.85 states that despite having perfect 
morality, Ariyas can still have minor transgressions of the 
precepts. For instance, Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 55.3.4 mentions the 
demise of a Sakyan named Sarakani, after which the Buddha proclaimed 
that Sarakani had attained the Sotapanna stage at his death. This 
annoyed a number of the people as Sarakani was known to have failed 
in his training and had taken to drink.
The people were angry because the Buddha called Sarakani a Sotapanna 
even though the latter had taken to drink . This seemed to indicate 
that they knew Sarakani was quite a heavy drinker. People found it 
hard to believe that he was a Sotapanna. When the Buddha was 
informed that many people disbelieved Sarakani attained Sotapanna, 
the Buddha said: "… Why, Mahanama, if these great Sal trees here 
could know what is spoken well and what is spoken ill, I would 
proclaim even these great trees to be Sotapannas … bound for 
enlightenment. Much more then do I proclaim Sarakani the Sakyan to 
be one …."
This incident goes to show that the state of Sotapanna need not be 
as difficult to attain as many people think. The problem might be 
that they do not make enough effort to study the discourses, which 
is our best guide or teacher (as advised by the Buddha) for Right 
View.
Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 14 tells how a cousin of the Buddha, Mahanama, 
came to see the Buddha and said that he had learnt the Dhamma for a 
long time and knew that greed, hatred and delusion were defilements. 
Yet, he said that sometimes he could not control his mind when it 
was invaded by these defilements. He asked the Buddha whether this 
was because there were some states that he had not abandoned 
internally. 
The Buddha replied that even if an Ariyan disciple had seen with 
wisdom that greed, hatred and delusion were wrong, he might still be 
attracted by sensual pleasures unless he had attained piti (delight) 
and sukha (happiness). Piti and sukha are factors of the Jhana 
state. Jhana may be translated as a "state of mental brightness" 
when the mind becomes bright because of satipatthana (intense 
recollection) and concentration.
Unless we have attained one-pointedness of mind and experienced the 
bliss which is higher than sensual pleasure, we cannot help but be 
attracted to sensual pleasures. The commentaries state that Mahanama 
was already a Sakadagamin at that time. Thus, this Sutta shows that 
there can be Ariyans who have not attained jhana and who can be 
influenced by greed, hatred and delusion. Again, this proves, in 
this context, that the Sotapanna stage need not be as high as some 
people think.
There is evidence in the Suttas and Vinaya that very ordinary people 
attained stream entry upon listening to the Dhamma for the first 
time. For example, in the Vinaya books (Cullavagga, Chapter 7), we 
find that the 31 men despatched to murder the Buddha all attained 
stream entry when the Buddha preached to them. On another occasion, 
120,000 inhabitants of Rajagaha attained stream entry when they 
heard the Buddha's discourse (Mahavagga, Chapter 1)."
http://vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art2.asp#A13
	
33156

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 4:31am
Subject: Re: Sotapanna

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello Sarah, and all,

..For example, in the Vinaya books (Cullavagga, Chapter 7), we 
> find that the 31 men despatched to murder the Buddha all attained 
> stream entry when the Buddha preached to them. On another occasion, 
> 120,000 inhabitants of Rajagaha attained stream entry when they 
> heard the Buddha's discourse (Mahavagga, Chapter 1)."
> http://vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art2.asp#A13
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Christine, Sarah and All,

I just remember those 31 men who were despatched to murder the 
Buddha. I think that was the very first attempt that Devadattha tried 
to kill the Buddha. The second attempt was letting the elephant 
Nalagiri kill the Buddha. The third attempt was done on his own by 
dislodging a huge stone from the top of a mountain, the event of 
which caused brusing of the Buddha's big toe.

The first was Devadattha delegated a man to kill the Buddha. The 
killer was an archor. He tried to kill the Buddha but the arrow did 
not go to the Buddha from the bow and he even could not move. The 
Buddha was in Metta Jhana.

Devadattha sent further two archor to kill the first archor so that 
the link would cut up who killed the Buddha. When the first man was 
pointing his arrow at the Buddha, the second-going two archors were 
pointing his arrow at the first man.

Devattha then sent further 4 archors to kill 2 archors. He sent 
further 8 archors to kill 4 and further 16 archors to kill the 8 
archors. So there were 16 + 8 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 31 archors.

At that time the Buddha was in Metta Jhana. After preaching Dhamma 
all these 31 archors or killers became sotapams.

Just thinking.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33157

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Hi, Sarah (and Jack) -

In a message dated 5/20/04 4:41:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> Earlier we also discussed birth, old age and death as included in the
> Truth: ‘Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is
> suffering..........briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering.’
> I think the following helps to clarify what is meant:
> 
> 456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this
> birth is not itself suffering. *But by being the basis for the arising of
> suffering it is called suffering.* But of what suffering is it the basis? 
> The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by
> means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff),
> *and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss* [and] in the human
> world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the
> human world - it is the basis for all that.�
> *****
> 473 “ ‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. *But
> here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being
> the basis for suffering*. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering
> and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak
> like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or
> to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not
> as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering
> through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.�
> *****
> 480 “ ‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; *but here
> this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being
> the basis for suffering*. The feelings belonging to the physical body
> which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held
> against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc,
> great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering
> through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.�
> 
==============================
These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that 
dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the sense of 
being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt 
unhappiness or sorrow or distress. (Of course, other commentaries might well point 
in a different direction. I don't think it makes sense to let one's 
interpretation of the Dhamma rise and fall with each different commentarrial position 
encountered! ;-)

With metta,
Howard



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33158

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 6:12am
Subject: Patthana Dhamma

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Just to let you know that there released the page 33 in patthana dhamma. I am afraid but it becomes a bit more complicated and in a few previous pages, there do not contain enough explanation in simple English.

This has to be done to save the space as most have been explained in the earlier pages. I include the link to the first page. From that page onward, there will be less and less explanation as I think they have been adequately explained in the earlier pages.

So far, the discussions have been on ekahetuka cittas or single-rooted consciousness and dvihetuka cittas or double-rooted consciousness and some tihetuka cittas or triple-rooted consciousness. In the next page which has been written will be on tihetuka cittas of jhana cittas and magga cittas and phala cittas.

The page 33 can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana33.html .

In that page, the first page is linked. It will be much more easier to read starts from the first page. If there anything not clear, just put a message to discuss the matter.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing




	
33159

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

In a message dated 5/20/04 6:12:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... 
writes:
These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that 
dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the sense 
of 
being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt 
unhappiness or sorrow or distress. (Of course, other commentaries might well 
point in a different direction.
======
All,
I think the above is the only interpretation that makes sense. (Another 
allied interpretation is that dhammas are dukkha for a worldling but only for a 
worldling.) The 3rd Noble Truth says there is cessation of dukkha. This cessation 
of dukkha does not mean that dhammas disappear. So, dhammas can exist without 
dukkha.

If we look at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, it does not imply that 
cessation means, poof, dhammas disappear. DO points to the fact that dhammas can 
exist without suffering if we make the right choices. It gives us a way out.

jack


	
33160

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:44am
Subject: Re: Sotapanna

Dear Chris:

Ah...

> 
> I came across this article with something on how the Sotapanna 
stage 
> is relatively not difficult to attain. (I wonder why there seems 
to 
> be different opinions on this?).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes the Mahayana doctrination makes confusion on these 
landmarks. You got at one side all good intentions' Rethoric, all 
the "Everyone has the potential to become Buddha" parlance; and the 
other an almost hebrew attainment to the letter of the law ( The 
suttas,the Pali Canon, etc).
The Theravada tradition (!?) states the paramount rank of the 
written Pali Text and The Abhidhamma describes with clinical 
precision the steps one need to be a Sotapanna.

( Ah... days of wine and roses. Sorry Jon, but I cannot resist to 
speak about Cambridge at these ours! You must indulge on it!)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You can even go to retreats in 
> some countries where becoming a Sotapanna is an expectation after 
> one month but is a pretty near guaranteed after three. As becoming 
> a Sotapanna is the only way to ensure there will be no further 
> unfortunate rebirths - I hope the "it's easier than you think" view 
> is correct. But somehow ....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's EASIER than you think, Chris: all the Sotapana steps are 
fully described on Abhidhamma. The Sotapana eradicates the 
1st,2nd,5th, 6th and 11th Akusala Cittas, destroying at this way the 
two fetters (Samyojana): Sakkayaditthi ( self-illusion) and Vicikiccha
(doubts).
And it's a good omen of all us to be able to get Abhidhamma's 
teachings easily: it's not necessary to consult old manuscripts at 
Oxford and Cambridge to do it (Ah! Cambridge!!!At these warm days 
when good boys and girls run after the Speed Dating sponsored by the 
Cambridge Student Union I think that it would be good to you Chris to 
be a Caian or a Magdalen at your next life!!!)

Mettaya, Ícaro



> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
> 
> "Sotapanna Stage Relatively Not Difficult to Attain
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.9.85 states that despite having perfect 
> morality, Ariyas can still have minor transgressions of the 
> precepts. For instance, Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 55.3.4 mentions the 
> demise of a Sakyan named Sarakani, after which the Buddha 
proclaimed 
> that Sarakani had attained the Sotapanna stage at his death. This 
> annoyed a number of the people as Sarakani was known to have failed 
> in his training and had taken to drink.
> The people were angry because the Buddha called Sarakani a 
Sotapanna 
> even though the latter had taken to drink . This seemed to indicate 
> that they knew Sarakani was quite a heavy drinker. People found it 
> hard to believe that he was a Sotapanna. When the Buddha was 
> informed that many people disbelieved Sarakani attained Sotapanna, 
> the Buddha said: "… Why, Mahanama, if these great Sal trees here 
> could know what is spoken well and what is spoken ill, I would 
> proclaim even these great trees to be Sotapannas … bound for 
> enlightenment. Much more then do I proclaim Sarakani the Sakyan to 
> be one …."
> This incident goes to show that the state of Sotapanna need not be 
> as difficult to attain as many people think. The problem might be 
> that they do not make enough effort to study the discourses, which 
> is our best guide or teacher (as advised by the Buddha) for Right 
> View.
> Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 14 tells how a cousin of the Buddha, 
Mahanama, 
> came to see the Buddha and said that he had learnt the Dhamma for a 
> long time and knew that greed, hatred and delusion were 
defilements. 
> Yet, he said that sometimes he could not control his mind when it 
> was invaded by these defilements. He asked the Buddha whether this 
> was because there were some states that he had not abandoned 
> internally. 
> The Buddha replied that even if an Ariyan disciple had seen with 
> wisdom that greed, hatred and delusion were wrong, he might still 
be 
> attracted by sensual pleasures unless he had attained piti 
(delight) 
> and sukha (happiness). Piti and sukha are factors of the Jhana 
> state. Jhana may be translated as a "state of mental brightness" 
> when the mind becomes bright because of satipatthana (intense 
> recollection) and concentration.
> Unless we have attained one-pointedness of mind and experienced the 
> bliss which is higher than sensual pleasure, we cannot help but be 
> attracted to sensual pleasures. The commentaries state that 
Mahanama 
> was already a Sakadagamin at that time. Thus, this Sutta shows that 
> there can be Ariyans who have not attained jhana and who can be 
> influenced by greed, hatred and delusion. Again, this proves, in 
> this context, that the Sotapanna stage need not be as high as some 
> people think.
> There is evidence in the Suttas and Vinaya that very ordinary 
people 
> attained stream entry upon listening to the Dhamma for the first 
> time. For example, in the Vinaya books (Cullavagga, Chapter 7), we 
> find that the 31 men despatched to murder the Buddha all attained 
> stream entry when the Buddha preached to them. On another occasion, 
> 120,000 inhabitants of Rajagaha attained stream entry when they 
> heard the Buddha's discourse (Mahavagga, Chapter 1)."
> http://vbgnet.org/vbgnet/resource/articles/art2.asp#A13
	
33161

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:53am
Subject: Re: PHOTOS in Album

Dear Chris:

> Dear Icaro,
> 
> A sudden thought occurred to me: "I wonder if Icaro is drinking 
> enough Chamomile tea?" :-) :-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

HAHAH!!! Not enough!!!
I love the Blackcurrant and the earl Grey teas!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> What is this about Cambridge and Fractured Fairy Tales and Speed 
> Dates? Did I miss an important post? :-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, nothing so special!
When I was searching buddhistic resources on net, I read on 
Cambridge University Site about these Speed Datings sponsored by the 
Cambridge Student Union. Cool!!!
Besides the Punting on Cam River, the bops on Gonville & Caius 
College and the May Balls, these Speed Dates seems to me a good idea 
to promote social intercourse: a boyfriend or girlfriend for three 
minutes only!!!
(And without the Count Vorga for sure! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!)

Jon & Sarah... you MUST indulge on these mundane remarks!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> cheers,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers!

Mettaya, Ícaro




> Chris
> 
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
> <icarofranca@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Chris:
> > 
> > 
> > ...days becoming warmer, love is in the air...
> > At Cambrigde more Fractured Fairy Tales are coming to life!
> > Clever boys and girls run one each other at the traditional 
> Speed 
> > Dates at the begining of term.
> > The May Balls, the blue sky, the punting at Cam River.
> > The Quest for Paradise... and the best bops at Gonville & 
Caius 
> > College!
> > 
> > Meanwhile...
> > 
> > 
> > > And those members who have always been meaning to put a photo 
in 
> > the 
> > > album (yes, I do mean you),> 
> > 
> > 
> > NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!
> > NO!!! COUNT VORGA!!!!
> > 
> > Indeed... all of us, Noble bunch of Dhamma practicioners are 
> > needing of some mental culture!
> > 
> > (Just Kidding, Chris... hee hee hee hee!!!)
> > 
> > Mettaya, Ícaro
> 
> > > "Whatever breathing beings there may be.
> > > No matter whether they are frail or firm,
> > > With none excepted, be they long or big
> > > Or middle-sized, or be they short or small
> > > Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen,
> > > Or whether they are dwelling far or near" 
> > > 
> > > .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!
> > > 
> > > metta and peace,
> > > Christine
> > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33162

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

Dear Robmoult

> 
> Hmmm…this is a very weird post! I catch the hint of an insult, but 
> I am not quite sure. Let me see if I can copy your sense of humor 
> here:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's only a light spirit, due the May Balls on Cambridge!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Icaro, by the way, why aren't you off killing anyone lately??? 
> Have you run out of bullets?? Maybe you can be like Rocky and Bull 
> Winkle in the "Fractured Fairy Tales" and go see the Professor to 
> learn how to make some more? ;-))

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I LOVE Rocky & Bullwinkle!!!
They are cool!
Aesop and Son,
Improvable History,
Fractured Fairy Tales,
etc,
At matters of social and cultural criticism they are more sharper 
and direct than Hanna & Barbera's cartoons!!!

Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33163

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

Typo!!!

> Dear Robmoult

---------------------------------------------------------------------

It's dear James and not dear Robmoult!

Please, james!!
Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!!


Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33164

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:33am
Subject: Re: Sotapanna

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
<icarofranca@y...> wrote:

It's EASIER than you think, Chris: all the Sotapana steps are 
fully described on Abhidhamma. The Sotapana eradicates the 
1st,2nd,5th, 6th and 11th Akusala Cittas, destroying at this way the 
two fetters (Samyojana): Sakkayaditthi ( self-illusion) and Vicikiccha
(doubts).
And it's a good omen of all us to be able to get Abhidhamma's 
teachings easily: it's not necessary to consult old manuscripts at 
Oxford and Cambridge to do it (Ah! Cambridge!!!At these warm days 
when good boys and girls run after the Speed Dating sponsored by the 
Cambridge Student Union I think that it would be good to you Chris to 
be a Caian or a Magdalen at your next life!!!)

Mettaya, Ícaro
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Icaro, Christine and All,

Let me just jump in here :-).

Icaro,are you sure that sotapams eradicate vicikiccha and only 
sakkayaditthi?

Htoo Naing
	
33165

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:58am
Subject: Re: Dana & Sila TV Script 1

Hi Sarah,

> One question: will you be the narrator too? I ask out of curiosity 
because
> in the text you write `After studying and practicing......forty 
years now,
> I have seen....'.
> 

[Suravira] Yes, I will be the program's talking head. 

I have just published the www.deerparksangh.org website. Through it 
you can gain access to all of the currently available transcripts of 
the Dana & Sila TV program (four transcripts remain to be completed).

Thank you for your feedback - each point you raised was important 
and helpful.

With metta,
Suravira
	
33166

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:00am
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta & Technical Aspects of Stream Entry

Hi Rob,

> I found your script extract to be fascinating. I would like to 
read 
> more. When will your scripts be available at your website? What 
texts 

[Suravira] 

I have just published the www.deerparksangha.org website. Through it 
you can gain access to all of the currently available transcripts of 
the Dana & Sila TV program (four transcripts remain to be completed).


> can I read to learn more about anusaya, pariyutthana and vãtikkama?
> 

[Suravira] Check out the BPS site. I will search through my notes 
for the exact reference.

With metta,
Suravira
	
33167

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:41am
Subject: nibbana

Hi Larry,
Is it right that you have B.B.'s M.N.? I think you mentioned Sutta 2. In
the Intro, p. 31, B.B. gives a balanced explanation of nibbana. He says that
nibbana does not easily lends itself to definitions in terms of concepts,
and that the Buddha's objective was a practical one leading beings to
release from suffering. So we should stress the Path, but knowing about
nibbana gives us an orientation towards the goal. <Above all, Nibbana is the
cessation of suffering, and for those who seek an end to suffering such a
designation is enough to beckon them towards the path.>
Sutta 2, All the Taints, here are many approaches to abandon akusala. This
sutta gains so much in depth if we understand that all these ways of
abandoning should be done together with satipatthana. For example, by using,
or by enduring: always with right understanding of nama and rupa, since that
is the Buddha's teaching.
Nina.
	
33168

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:41am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 4

Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 4

We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion²(I, Ch 3, 55): about the earth
element:

As regards paìhavídhåtu (³earth element) and so on, the meaning of element
has the meaning of ³nature² (sabhåva); and the meaning of nature has the
meaning of ³voidness² (suñña); and the meaning of voidness has the meaning
of ³not a being² (nissatta)...

An element or paramattha dhamma has its own characteristic that cannot be
changed: seeing experiences visible object, that is its nature. It arises
because of its appropriate conditions and then it falls away. It is ³not a
being². 

Seeing only sees what appears through the eyes, different from defining what
we see. Hardness is a rúpa, but the experience of hardness is nåma. Sound
appears, it is heard. There are sound and hearing, but there can be
awareness of only one reality at a time. There can be another citta
accompanied by paññå, and then paññå can understand sound as rúpa or hearing
as nåma. 
When we think of the body as a whole, we think of a concept, an idea we have
about the body. In reality, what we call body is constituted by many
different rúpas that arise and fall away all the time. We notice decay of
the body, and we think about its impermanence, but that is thinking of an
idea, a concept we have of the body as impermanent. We do not realize the
falling away of each rúpa separately, in other words, the momentary
impermanence, the true charactertistic of impermanence. And therefore we
also fail to see the true characteristic of dukkha: what falls away each
moment is no refuge, it is not worth clinging to, it is dukkha.
Before we can blink your eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone,
from head to toe, there is nothing remaining. Our misconceptions about
reality cannot be eradicated if we remain in the world of thinking, of
illusions. If we realize that there are six separate worlds appearing
through the six doors, one at a time, our world of illusions crumbles apart.
We should remember the sutta ³The world² (Kindred Sayings IV, First Fifty,
Ch III, § 82) about the world that crumbles away. We read:
³What crumbles away? The eye...objects...eye-consciousness...² and so on.
Sutta after sutta the Buddha explains about six classes of objects, six
bases, six sense-cognitions.
The question is how can the world of illusions crumble away? Listening and
reflection is the foundation of beginning to be directly aware of the
dhammas that appear. When sati arises and is mindful of one dhamma at a
time, understanding develops. However, when we cling to sati and try to
focus on specific realities it is not the way to develop right
understanding.
****
Nina.
	
33169

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:15pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
<icarofranca@y...> wrote:
> Typo!!!
> 
> > Dear Robmoult
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> 
> It's dear James and not dear Robmoult!
> 
> Please, james!!
> Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!! Forgive me!!!
> 
> 
> Mettaya, Ícaro

Friend Icaro,

Of course I forgive you. I still think you must be a few cards shy 
of a full deck! Hehehe… ;-)) But, hey, I still forgive you. We are 
all a few cards shy of that full deck!! ;-)) Icaro…please never 
forget who you are, who others are, and always strive to be kind to 
both yourself and others, and you will never do wrong!! Peace Out! 
Psycho Brother!! ;-))

Metta, James
	
33170

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:29pm
Subject: Re: Sotapanna

Dear Htoo!

> Dear Icaro, Christine and All,
> 
> Let me just jump in here :-).
> 
> Icaro,are you sure that sotapams eradicate vicikiccha and only 
> sakkayaditthi?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As a matter of fact, the Sotapanni erradicates objectively the 
akusala cittas 1,5,6 and 11, namely:

1)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure and 
connected with wrong view
2)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure and 
connected with wrong view
5)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, 
and connected with wrong view,
6)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and 
connected with wrong view,
11)One consciousness, accompained with pleasure and connected 
with doubts.

That's the real "Labour of Love" of the Sotapanni. Once this 
mastered, the sotapanni advances towards the next degree on his 
practice.

Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33171

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet James

Dear James!

> 
> Of course I forgive you. 

Oh Thanks Thanks Thanks!!!!!!!


Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33172

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 1:32pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Ken H, Sukin, and all,

Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? Could 
you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the Pali 
Canon?

In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. 
They are:
1. Association with superior persons
2. Hearing the true Dhamma
3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara]
4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma

When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for 
stream-entry?

Metta,
Victor

*Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> Hi Sukin,
> 
> You wrote to Rob Ep:
> --------------
> > And this is why I think, many during the Buddha's time 
> > got enlightened on the spot while listening to the Buddha. 
> Besides, often 
> > what also happens is kusala `listening' (Ken H. is this what you 
> mean?) 
> > conditioned by strong Saddha in the Teachings. 
> --------------
> 
> At the time, I was theorising on why `listening, studying and 
> associating with the wise' are factors of pariyatti leading to 
> mundane insight (patipatti) while formal practice (concentration 
on 
> concepts of reality) is not. 
> 
> Not that it needs any theorising -- to me it seems obvious. But 
> even so, I simply theorised that the Dhamma is a teaching; the 
> Buddha's role is to teach and our role is to listen.
> 
> This won't convince anyone, of course; the obvious rejoinder 
> is, `and then we try to put what we have learnt into practice!'
> 
> The fact remains that the Buddha did not list formal practice as 
one 
> of the factors of pariyatti. Naturally, having had this brought 
to 
> our attention, we discontinue our stylised vipassana meditation 
and 
> concentrate on study. Or so one might think. Why is it not always 
> the case?
> 
> Changing the subject slightly, thanks for reporting back on your 
> conversation with K Sujin (about possible weak levels of insight 
> during Dhamma study). I think I follow what you have said. Like 
> you, I won't be struggling after a definite answer. Excessive 
> effort has never been one of my failings. :-) 
> 
> Kind regards,
> Ken H
> 
> PS: Commiserations on the loss of that molar. Take good care of 
the 
> rest of them.
	
33173

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:12pm
Subject: Re: Sotapanna

Hello Icaro, Htoo, and all,

What about Silabbata Paramassa? Doesn't the Sotapana extinguish that 
as well? Is Sakkaya Ditthi different to 'just plain' Ditthi? Does 
the Sotapana hang on to other types of Ditthi, or have all gone?


metta,
Chris 

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
<icarofranca@y...> wrote:
> Dear Htoo!
> 
> > Dear Icaro, Christine and All,
> > 
> > Let me just jump in here :-).
> > 
> > Icaro,are you sure that sotapams eradicate vicikiccha and only 
> > sakkayaditthi?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> 
> As a matter of fact, the Sotapanni erradicates objectively the 
> akusala cittas 1,5,6 and 11, namely:
> 
> 1)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure and 
> connected with wrong view
> 2)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure and 
> connected with wrong view
> 5)One consciousness, unprompted, accompained with 
indifference, 
> and connected with wrong view,
> 6)One consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, 
and 
> connected with wrong view,
> 11)One consciousness, accompained with pleasure and connected 
> with doubts.
> 
> That's the real "Labour of Love" of the Sotapanni. Once this 
> mastered, the sotapanni advances towards the next degree on his 
> practice.
> 
> Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33174

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana

Hi Nina,

Thanks for the info on nibbana. I'm enjoying your piece on perceverance
in the dhamma too.

Larry
	
33175

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:15pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the quotations from the Dispeller of Delusion. Do you know of
any discussion of the Four Noble Truths in terms of paramattha dhammas?
I'm particularly interested in the second truth, "cause". 

Larry
	
33176

From: connie <nichicon@h...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:58pm
Subject: re: Bardo States

Hey, Sarah,

if we could jump in the Way Back Time Machine and return to 'bardo
states'... oops, here we are at audiodharma.org's mp3 on the
aggregates:

There are these four nutriments for the establishing of beings who have
taken birth or for the support of *those in search of a place to be
born*. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the
second, consciousness the third, and intellectual intention the fourth.
These are the four nutriments for the establishing of beings or for the
support of those in search of a place to be born. [SN XII.64]

Thanissaro Bhikkhu mentions "sambhavesin" and calls it/them(?) 'the
momentary state of being b/n death and rebirth', acknowledging that
there is no such thing in a strict Thera position, but that anecdotal
material from around the world seems to support such a thing. [How long
can it take for the bird's shadow to land?] He goes on to mention the
Commentaries discussing images of past kamma and where you might go and
says something to the effect that part of what meditation is for is to
be able to have a certain amount of control over that process (if you
keep your wits about you)... that you can say about particular images,
"I don't want to go there".

Obviously, I'm an auto-pilot meditator... when I open my eyes and see
the new visible objects or places around me, I'm already there and can't
figure out how an end of life vision would be any easier to stay out of
than those or the places I go when my head hits the pillow. Worse yet,
those times you just can't wake up or stop the dream.

jump back in before I'm totally outta control... I'll have to remember
to ask what someone meant by calling this existence a bardo... I'd
thought they were just the 'in betweens'... but then again, what else is
there as long as we keep trading them in and the next is still
'waiting'?

see ya next time,
connie
	
33177

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 4:15pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]Bus, questions and a nice Sunday!

Dear Gabriel,

You asked Icaro a good question and perhaps I might give a quick comment
as I think he has other things on his mind these days;-)

--- Gabriel Nunes Laera <zopatenzin@h...> wrote: 

> I have a simple question about buddhist culture (if I can call it so!):
> How 
> is seen marriage and relationship between a lay man and a lay woman from
> the 
> buddhist perspective and culture.I would like you to understand thsi
> doubt 
> since I live in a country where I have any contact with buddhist
> immigrants 
> family, and after studying buddhism and its philosophy I do feel much
> more 
> comfortable to think of sharing a lay-buddhist life with someone who at 
> least understand and respect what I believe and practice.
....
S: The Buddha’s disciples consisted of monks, nuns, lay men and women and
the teaching of satipatthana was and is the same for all. 

To give just one example, the chief female lay disciple of the Buddha and
declared by him to be foremost among those who ministered to the Order
(dáyikánam aggá) was Visakha (A.i.26; she is considered the ideal lay
woman - e.g., A.iv.348). She had become a sotapanna at the age of seven
but went on to marry and have a very large family.

(the references above are from Dict of PPN which also tells us:

“Visákhá had ten sons and ten daughters, each of whom had a similar number
of children, and so on down to the fourth generation. Before her death, at
the age of one hundred and twenty, she had eighty four thousand and twenty
direct lineal descendants, all living.”

We can also read various suttas which give practical advice and examples
for lay people too. For example, AN, Bk of 4s, ‘Different Kinds of
Marriages’ looks at various combinations of when ‘a wretch lives together
with a wretch; ‘a wretch lives together with a goddess; a god lives
together with a wretch; a god lives together with a goddess.’

In the latter case, “Here, householders, the husband is one who abstains
from the destruction of life....from wines, liquor and intoxicants; he is
virtuous, of good character; he dwells at home with a heart free from the
stain of stinginess; he does not abuse or revile ascetics and brahmins. 
And his wife is exactly the same in all respects. It is in such a way that
a god lives together with a goddess.” (Bodhi transl).

When Icaro was referring to Cambridge May balls, I thought of my parents
who met at one, followed some 'speed dating' and were happily married for
many years before it all went unhappily and badly wrong..... Now my mother
lives happily alone, leading a good and useful life and about to become a
great-grandmother. We never know how life will turn out and have all lived
as wretches and gods/goddesses and with wretches and gods/goddesses many,
many times in samsara. So we can just take refuge in the teachings and
appeciate the value of them, regardless of whether happily or unhappily
married, living alone or as a bhikkhu.

Look forward to any further comments.

Metta,

Sarah

p.s I’m not sure if you were a member when Christine posted the following
neat summary recently:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m27290.html
C: >There are presently 407 members on this list - most of them are
ordinary lay people struggling with just the issues you raise. Some have
loving partners with an equal interest in the Teachings, some are unhappy
in relationships, some have children they love but who don't necessarily
bring happiness, some don't have children and had wanted to have them,
some are healthy, some are quite ill, some are young, some are elderly,
some are wealthy, some comfortably off, and some worried sick about how to
pay bills. And some poor unfortunates have to live alone with a
self-centred Great Dane, whose only interest in the Dhamma is listening to
the BrahmaVihara chant on Vipassana.com (after dinner please).
Generally, life in Samsara is dukkha.

Remember the traditional definition of Suffering - "Birth is dukkha, aging
is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair
are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; 
separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha.
In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."<

=====



	
33178

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 4:17pm
Subject: Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Sarah and all,

In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is 
dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, 
it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
dukkha, death is not itself dukkha.

The view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, 
death is not itself dukkha" presented in Sammohovinodani directly 
contradicts what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha 
that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Jack (Howard & All),
[snip]
> 
> All extracts are from Sammohavinodani (transl as Dispeller of 
Delusion,
> PTS, Classification of the Truths). (Any * are mine for emphasis)
[snip]
> Earlier we also discussed birth, old age and death as included in 
the
> Truth: `Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is
> suffering..........briefly, the five factors of attachment are 
suffering.'
> I think the following helps to clarify what is meant:
> 
> 456 "Now `meaning of suffering in birth should be understood'...: 
for this
> birth is not itself suffering. *But by being the basis for the 
arising of
> suffering it is called suffering.* But of what suffering is it the 
basis? 
> The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One 
by
> means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 
165 ff),
> *and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss* [and] in the 
human
> world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc 
in the
> human world - it is the basis for all that."
> *****
> 473 " `The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood'. 
*But
> here this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as 
being
> the basis for suffering*. For what suffering? For both bodily 
suffering
> and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged 
is weak
> like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to 
stand or
> to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children 
are not
> as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering
> through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering."
> *****
> 480 " `The meaning of suffering of death should be understood'; 
*but here
> this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering 
through being
> the basis for suffering*. The feelings belonging to the physical 
body
> which end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass 
torch held
> against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of 
hell, etc,
> great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as 
suffering
> through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering."
> *****
> Birth, Old Age and Death
> 482 "Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like
> murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity........"
> 483 "Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the 
entry
> into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing 
should be
> regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink 
there;
> the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment of 
his
> ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc, when he is weak and is 
struck down
> and attacked while changing his posture."
> *****
> Comments very welcome.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> =======
	
33179

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 6:28pm
Subject: 

Hi all,

Below is a representation of the Dependent Origination.

---------- represent coming into being of

========== represent being equivalent to

Ignorance

Fabrications

Consciousness

Nama-Rupa

Six Sense Bases

Contact

Feeling
----------Ignorance
Craving ==========Fabrications

Clinging==========Fabrications

Becoming

Birth ----------Consciousness
Birth ----------Nama-Rupa
Birth ----------Six Sense Bases

----------Contact

----------Feeling
----------Ignorance
----------Craving ==========Fabrications

----------Clinging==========Fabrications
Aging-&-Death
Becoming

Birth ----------Consciousness
Birth ----------Nama-Rupa
Birth ----------Six Sense Bases

----------Contact

----------Feeling

----------Craving

----------Clinging
Aging-&-Death
Becoming

Birth


Metta,
Victor
	
33180

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 6:42pm
Subject: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi all,

Below is a representation of the Dependent Origination.

---------- represent coming into being of

========== represent being equivalent to



Ignorance

Fabrications

Consciousness

Nama-Rupa

Six Sense Bases

Contact

Feeling
----------Ignorance
Craving ==========Fabrications

Clinging==========Fabrications

Becoming

Birth ----------Consciousness
Birth ----------Nama-Rupa
Birth ----------Six Sense Bases

----------Contact

----------Feeling
----------Ignorance
----------Craving ==========Fabrications

----------Clinging==========Fabrications
Aging-&-Death
Becoming

Birth ----------Consciousness
Birth ----------Nama-Rupa
Birth ----------Six Sense Bases

----------Contact

----------Feeling

----------Craving

----------Clinging
Aging-&-Death
Becoming

Birth




Metta,
Victor
	
33181

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 7:20pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Victor,

You wrote:
----------------
V: > Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? 
Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the 
Pali Canon?

In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. 
They are:
1. Association with superior persons
2. Hearing the true Dhamma
3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara]
4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma

When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for 
stream-entry?
--------------------

Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha 
(penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha 
are those you have listed above. They include pariyati 
(intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and 
patipatti, which is 4. 

So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that 
is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would 
have been correct, too. 

Do you agree that 1, 2 and 3 lead to 4? 

While we're on the subject; do you agree that number 4, practice in 
accordance with the Dhamma, means satipatthana? And do you agree 
that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be 
nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas? All of 
which have the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta? 

I suppose, for a Once-returner, `practice in accordance with the 
Dhamma' (patipatti) would include both satipatthana and Path 
Consciousness (pativedha) at the level of Stream-entry. (?)

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33182

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:09pm
Subject: Comments on Introduction

Hi Suravira,

I have started reading your transcripts. Excellent stuff! To keep my 
messages short, I will comment on one section at a time.

In the introduction, you might want to state the objectives of the 
series or what the audience can expect to walk away with. 

It might be more palitable if Buddhism were presented as an "active 
philosophy" that can be practiced along with a traditional religion 
(i.e. you are not expecting anybody to prostrate themselves in front 
of idols).

I noted that you are using mainly Pali with a bit of Sanskrit 
("sutra" rather than "sutta", "karma" rather than "kamma" in a later 
piece). Just an observation.

The Kalama Sutta is a powerful opening, however the passage selected 
is easily (and often) misconstrued. You might want to read Bhikkhu 
Bodhi's "Lecture on the Kalama Sutta" and add a paragraph or two to 
ensure that the context is properly understood. Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper 
can be found at:

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/lecture_on_the_kalama_sutra.htm

Hey! I just noticed that the URL uses "sutra" rather than "sutta"; 
but if we look at the web page, we see that BB used "sutta" :-)

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	

 	 

	
33183

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:53pm
Subject: Comments on Dhamma Vinaya

Hi Suravira,

Probably a nitpicking point, but you refer to Dana-Sila-Bhavana 
as "pillars of practice". I believe that the Suttas refer to this set 
as the bases of meritorious actions (punna-kiriya-vatthu). You 
refered to them as a gradual teaching which could be interpreted as 
meaning that it was necessary to be competent at the first before 
proceeding to the next. The Pali word for "practice" (patipatti), as 
part of pariyatti-patipatti-padivedha, implies a gradual progression 
of Sila-Samadhi-Panna with the realization (padivedha) of 
steamwinning.

In my opinon, a key point about Dana is that it turns the focus of 
the mind away from "ME". All wholesome states have a core of 
selflessness (I am using the term selflessness in a conventional 
sense, not in a technical sense). For many people, particularly in 
today's society, the focus is almost entirely "ME". Dana goes against 
the stream of "ME". In the following post, I talked about giving 
blood as the perfect gift:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33023

You have stated, "This presentation of Buddhist virtue, morality and 
ethics includes Theravada, Mahayana Zen and Vajrayana teachings. 
Since I have elected not to become ordained in a particular lineage, 
I am not obligated to promote one particular tradition. Instead, I am 
free to create a hybrid of these traditions in a manner I hope will 
appeal to a broad segment of the American public and by so doing, 
share the dharma with a wider audience." Your audience would probably 
not know what these schools are; you might want to introduce them 
briefly (one sentence each) or alternatively, not use these terms at 
this point. From what I have read thus far, it would appear that your 
approach has more Theravada than Mahayana or Vajrayana. You might 
want to admit this "bias" at this point.

Metta,
Rob M :-)

PS: Again, you used "dharma" rather than "dhamma" :-)
	
33184

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 8:58pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Ken H,

Reply in context.


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> You wrote:
> ----------------
> V: > Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? 
> Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the 
> Pali Canon?
> 
> In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. 
> They are:
> 1. Association with superior persons
> 2. Hearing the true Dhamma
> 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara]
> 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma
> 
> When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for 
> stream-entry?
> --------------------
> 
> Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of 
pativedha 
> (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha 
> are those you have listed above. They include pariyati 
> (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and 
> patipatti, which is 4. 
> 
> So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that 
> is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" 
would 
> have been correct, too. 


OK.


> 
> Do you agree that 1, 2 and 3 lead to 4? 



Mmmm...I didn't think of the relationship between these factors. 
But your question got me thinking.

I agree that association with superior persons, hearing the true 
Dhamma and careful attention [yonisomanasikara] are conducive to 
practice in accordance with the Dhamma. But at the same time, 
association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, and 
careful attention are also practice in accordance with the Dhamma.

With association with superior persons and careful attention, one 
can hear the true Dhamma. Hearing the true Dhamma, one can practice 
in accordance with the Dhamma.

It occurs to me that these factors can be related in different ways.



> 
> While we're on the subject; do you agree that number 4, practice 
in 
> accordance with the Dhamma, means satipatthana? 


I don't agree that practice in accordance with the Dhamma means 
satipatthana. Satipatthana is the Dhamma. But not everything that 
is the Dhamma is satipatthana. In other words, the Dhamma includes 
more than satipatthana.



And do you agree 
> that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be 
> nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas? 


I don't agree that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned 
reality to be nothing more than the various conditioned namas and 
rupas.

It means:

Remaining focused on the body in & of itself [kaye kayanupassi]-- 
ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with 
reference to the world.

Remaining focused on the feelings in & of themselves [vedanasu 
vedananupassi]-- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & 
distress with reference to the world.

Remaining focused on the mind in & of itself [citte cittanupassi]-- 
ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with 
reference to the world.

Remaining focused on the dhamma in & of themselves [dhammesu 
dhammanupassi]-- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & 
distress with reference to the world.

And the details are explained in Satipatthana Sutta.


All of 
> which have the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta? 

Yes, the body, feelings, mind, and dhamma are inconstant, dukkha, 
not self.



> 
> I suppose, for a Once-returner, `practice in accordance with the 
> Dhamma' (patipatti) would include both satipatthana and Path 
> Consciousness (pativedha) at the level of Stream-entry. (?)



I am not trying to fit the factors of stream entry into this 
division of patipatti, pariyatti, and pativedha.


> 
> Kind regards,
> Ken H

Metta,
Victor
	
33185

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:18pm
Subject: three levels of defilements

Dear Rob M, Suravira and Jack,
Rob, you asked about this subject, and this is part of what I posted before
from my translation series from Thai about the latent tendencies. Jack may
be interested at tadanga, vikkhambhana and samuccheda pahana, etc. at the
end. I shall do more about anusayas, but have to go through lots of Pali
texts, and this takes time.
We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the
threefold training and the three levels of defilements:

<³In the Vinaya-Piìaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions
is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama kilesa);
in the Suttanta-Pitaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions
(defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because
concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyutthåna kilesa );
in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is
meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pitaka there is
a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of
morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and
extirping by the Path. In the first Pitaka the riddance is of the corruption
of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption of
craving and wrong views...²

The ³Såratthadípaní², the Subcommentary to the ³Samantapåsådikå², on the
³Inception of Discipline² gives an additional explanation. We read:

³As to the expression, the abandoning of the defilements that are
transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), this refers to the abandoning of
transgressions through the body-door and through the door of speech, thus,
to the abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) and defilements. The
defilements that persist as a powerful condition in the continuous stream of
cittas cause the arising of defilements with akusala citta and, even though
they are disturbing, they do not violate morality in the sense of causing
transgressions. Therefore, the teachers said, ³morality is opposed to
transgressions.² 
As regards the abandoning of medium defilements one is possessed with
(pariyutthåna kilesa), medium defilements ruin and destroy what is wholesome
since they have the power to give opportunity for akusala. This is explained
as follows: the abandoning of medium defilements means the abandoning of the
defilements that are disturbing because they arise in the succession of
cittas. 
As to the expression, the abandoning of the latent tendencies, latent
tendencies are the defilements that lie dormant in the continuous stream of
cittas since they cannot be eradicated yet, and they are to be eradicated
successively. 
These defilements can arise because of the appropriate conditions, and they
are called latent tendencies. There are seven defilements which are latent
tendencies and these defilements can arise when the conditions are
appropriate, such as sensuous desire. The abandoning of these seven
defilements is called the eradication of the latent tendencies. The factor
of the eightfold Path which is wisdom can completely eradicate
them.Therefore the teachers said that wisdom is opposed to the latent
tendencies. 
As to the expression, overcoming by opposites, tadanga-pahåna, this is the
overcoming of an unwholesome quality by an opposite wholesome quality among
the bases of meritorious deeds, such as generosity, just as a lighted lamp
dispels darkness. This is called overcoming by the opposite. However, here,
overcoming by the opposite refers to the the overcoming of the wrong of
transgressions by good morality.
There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana-pahåna,
and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression
refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by
preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access
concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown
into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.
Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of
the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of
someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the
four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Wrong conduct
through the body (duccarita) and so on is called ³duccarita². It is also
called duccarita because it is conduct that the defilements have ruined. If
such conduct has arisen in the succession of cittas, this is called ³with
corruptions² (sankilesa). The reason is that one is hindered by defilements
and thoroughly disturbed. With
regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through bodily
misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption of
craving (tanhå) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed
to sensuous desire (kåmachandha). It is explained that the corruption of
wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the disclosure
and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own characteristic
(sabhåva dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.²
Nina.
	
33186

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:26pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi all,

I am trying to revise this representation a bit.

---------- represent conccurrance or occurance of

========== represent being equivalent to


Ignorance

Fabrications------Ignorance

Consciousness-----Ignorance

Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance

Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Contact-----------Ignorance

Feeling-----------Ignorance

Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance

Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance

Becoming----------------------------Ignorance

Birth-------------Consciousness-----Ignorance
Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

------------------Contact-----------Ignorance

------------------Feeling-----------Ignorance

------------------Craving===========Fabrications

------------------Clinging==========Fabrications
Aging-&-Death
------------------Becoming

------------------Birth-------------Consciousness
------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa
------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases

------------------------------------Contact

------------------------------------Feeling

------------------------------------Craving

------------------------------------Clinging
------------------Aging-&-Death
------------------------------------Becoming

------------------------------------Birth




Metta,
Victor
	
33187

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:39pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi all,

Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.


---------- represent concurrance or occurance of

========== represent being equivalent to


Ignorance

Fabrications------Ignorance

Consciousness-----Ignorance

Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance

Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Contact-----------Ignorance

Feeling-----------Ignorance

Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance

Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance

Becoming----------------------------Ignorance

Birth-------------Consciousness-----Ignorance
Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance

Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance

Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications

Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications

Death

------------------Becoming

------------------Birth-------------Consciousness
------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa
------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases

------------------Aging-------------Contact

------------------Aging-------------Feeling

------------------Aging-------------Craving

------------------Aging-------------Clinging

------------------Death

------------------------------------Becoming

------------------------------------Birth


Metta,
Victor
	
33188

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi all,

Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.


---------- represent concurrance or occurance of

========== represent being equivalent to


Ignorance

Fabrications------Ignorance

Consciousness-----Ignorance

Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance

Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Contact-----------Ignorance

Feeling-----------Ignorance

Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance

Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance

Becoming----------Consciousness-----Ignorance

Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance

Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance

Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications

Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications

Death

------------------Becoming----------Consciousness

------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa
------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases

------------------Aging-------------Contact

------------------Aging-------------Feeling

------------------Aging-------------Craving

------------------Aging-------------Clinging

------------------Death

------------------------------------Becoming

------------------------------------Birth


Metta,
Victor
	
33189

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 9:59pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Victor,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.
> 
> 
> ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of
> 
> ========== represent being equivalent to
> 
> 
> Ignorance
> 
> Fabrications------Ignorance
> 
> Consciousness-----Ignorance
> 
> Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
> 
> Six Sense Bases---Ignorance
> 
> Contact-----------Ignorance

=====

I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write:

Contact-----------Ignorance

I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the overall 
picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able to 
relate your explanation to the rest of the representation.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33190

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:03pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi all,

Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.


---------- represent concurrance or occurance of

========== represent being equivalent to


Ignorance

Fabrications------Ignorance

Consciousness-----Ignorance

Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance

Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Contact-----------Ignorance

Feeling-----------Ignorance

Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance

Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance

Becoming----------Consciousness-----Ignorance

Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance

Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance

Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance

Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications

Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications

Death-------------Becoming----------Consciousness

------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa
------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases

------------------Aging-------------Contact

------------------Aging-------------Feeling

------------------Aging-------------Craving

------------------Aging-------------Clinging

------------------Death-------------Becoming

------------------------------------Birth


Metta,
Victor
	
33191

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:06pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Rob M,

In that example, it means that ignorance is there when the contact 
comes to be.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.
> > 
> > 
> > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of
> > 
> > ========== represent being equivalent to
> > 
> > 
> > Ignorance
> > 
> > Fabrications------Ignorance
> > 
> > Consciousness-----Ignorance
> > 
> > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
> > 
> > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance
> > 
> > Contact-----------Ignorance
> 
> =====
> 
> I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write:
> 
> Contact-----------Ignorance
> 
> I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the 
overall 
> picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able 
to 
> relate your explanation to the rest of the representation.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33192

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:07pm
Subject: Re: three levels of defilements

Hi Nina,

This is very interesting stuff and I would like more. I am trying to 
understand what happens when "thinking goes wrong". I am still trying 
to articulate it, but my current understanding is that the three 
levels of defilements are the conditions, natural decisive support is 
the mode of conditioning and the current mental state is that which 
is conditioned. The vipallasa are high level descriptions of the 
process (however, the three vipallasa do not correlate to the three 
levels of defilements).

Comments? Expansions?

Metta,
Rob M :-)


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Rob, you asked about this subject, and this is part of what I 
posted before
> from my translation series from Thai about the latent tendencies. 
Jack may
> be interested at tadanga, vikkhambhana and samuccheda pahana, etc. 
at the
> end. I shall do more about anusayas, but have to go through lots of 
Pali
> texts, and this takes time.
> We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the
> threefold training and the three levels of defilements:
> 
> <³In the Vinaya-Piìaka the riddance of transgression due to the 
corruptions
> is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama 
kilesa);
> in the Suttanta-Pitaka the riddance of the tyranny of the 
corruptions
> (defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because
> concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyutthåna 
kilesa );
> in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya 
kilesa) is
> meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pitaka 
there is
> a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various 
factors of
> morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of 
discarding and
> extirping by the Path. In the first Pitaka the riddance is of the 
corruption
> of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption 
of
> craving and wrong views...²
> 
> The ³Såratthadípaní², the Subcommentary to the ³Samantapåsådikå², 
on the
> ³Inception of Discipline² gives an additional explanation. We read:
> 
> ³As to the expression, the abandoning of the defilements that are
> transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), this refers to the abandoning of
> transgressions through the body-door and through the door of 
speech, thus,
> to the abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) and defilements. 
The
> defilements that persist as a powerful condition in the continuous 
stream of
> cittas cause the arising of defilements with akusala citta and, 
even though
> they are disturbing, they do not violate morality in the sense of 
causing
> transgressions. Therefore, the teachers said, ³morality is opposed 
to
> transgressions.² 
> As regards the abandoning of medium defilements one is possessed 
with
> (pariyutthåna kilesa), medium defilements ruin and destroy what is 
wholesome
> since they have the power to give opportunity for akusala. This is 
explained
> as follows: the abandoning of medium defilements means the 
abandoning of the
> defilements that are disturbing because they arise in the 
succession of
> cittas. 
> As to the expression, the abandoning of the latent tendencies, 
latent
> tendencies are the defilements that lie dormant in the continuous 
stream of
> cittas since they cannot be eradicated yet, and they are to be 
eradicated
> successively. 
> These defilements can arise because of the appropriate conditions, 
and they
> are called latent tendencies. There are seven defilements which are 
latent
> tendencies and these defilements can arise when the conditions are
> appropriate, such as sensuous desire. The abandoning of these seven
> defilements is called the eradication of the latent tendencies. The 
factor
> of the eightfold Path which is wisdom can completely eradicate
> them.Therefore the teachers said that wisdom is opposed to the 
latent
> tendencies. 
> As to the expression, overcoming by opposites, tadanga-pahåna, this 
is the
> overcoming of an unwholesome quality by an opposite wholesome 
quality among
> the bases of meritorious deeds, such as generosity, just as a 
lighted lamp
> dispels darkness. This is called overcoming by the opposite. 
However, here,
> overcoming by the opposite refers to the the overcoming of the 
wrong of
> transgressions by good morality.
> There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana-
pahåna,
> and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by 
repression
> refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, 
by
> preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of 
access
> concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot 
thrown
> into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.
> Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the 
abandoning of
> the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of 
cittas of
> someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated 
by the
> four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Wrong 
conduct
> through the body (duccarita) and so on is called ³duccarita². It is 
also
> called duccarita because it is conduct that the defilements have 
ruined. If
> such conduct has arisen in the succession of cittas, this is 
called ³with
> corruptions² (sankilesa). The reason is that one is hindered by 
defilements
> and thoroughly disturbed. With
> regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through 
bodily
> misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption 
of
> craving (tanhå) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is 
opposed
> to sensuous desire (kåmachandha). It is explained that the 
corruption of
> wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the 
disclosure
> and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own 
characteristic
> (sabhåva dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.²
> Nina.
	
33193

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:20pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Victor,

Let's explore this further. In the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), it 
says, "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The 
meeting of the three is contact."

So when contact comes to be, we have:
- Eye base
- Visible object
- Eye consciousness

Eye base and visible object are rupas. Eye base is kamma-produced 
rupa, so are you saying that the citta which created the kamma that 
produced the rupa was akusala (only akusala cittas have moha)? I 
suspect that this statement is incorrect and even if the statement 
were correct, this is quite an indirect relationship between moha and 
contact. Visible object is temperature-produced, so I can't see any 
moha there either.

Eye consciousness is a kiriya citta; it has no roots. It has no moha 
and it is not linked to kamma.

It is true that contact arises in all mental states, but only the 
akusala mental states have moha.

Please help me to understand better.

Metta,
Rob M :-)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Rob M,
> 
> In that example, it means that ignorance is there when the contact 
> comes to be.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 
<rob.moult@j...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi Victor,
> > 
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> > <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of
> > > 
> > > ========== represent being equivalent to
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Ignorance
> > > 
> > > Fabrications------Ignorance
> > > 
> > > Consciousness-----Ignorance
> > > 
> > > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
> > > 
> > > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance
> > > 
> > > Contact-----------Ignorance
> > 
> > =====
> > 
> > I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write:
> > 
> > Contact-----------Ignorance
> > 
> > I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the 
> overall 
> > picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able 
> to 
> > relate your explanation to the rest of the representation.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Rob M :-)
	
33194

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Rob M,

Please let me know if I can explain something else regarding the 
representation.

Basically, I was trying to shows a process of iteration and I used 
the dashed line "----" to show a temporal connection/relation.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > Again, I am trying to revise the representation a bit.
> > 
> > 
> > ---------- represent concurrance or occurance of
> > 
> > ========== represent being equivalent to
> > 
> > 
> > Ignorance
> > 
> > Fabrications------Ignorance
> > 
> > Consciousness-----Ignorance
> > 
> > Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance
> > 
> > Six Sense Bases---Ignorance
> > 
> > Contact-----------Ignorance
> 
> =====
> 
> I am a bit confused here. What does it mean when you write:
> 
> Contact-----------Ignorance
> 
> I pick this as one example, but I am trying to understand the 
overall 
> picture. Perhaps if you explain this one example, I will be able 
to 
> relate your explanation to the rest of the representation.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33196

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Rob M,

In the representation, I was trying to show a temporal relation, 
indicating that ignorance is there as contact comes to be. I was 
not trying to show a causal relation with 
"Contact-----------Ignorance"

Please let me know if there is anything else regarding the 
representation as whole that you would like me to explain.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Let's explore this further. In the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), it 
> says, "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. 
The 
> meeting of the three is contact."
> 
> So when contact comes to be, we have:
> - Eye base
> - Visible object
> - Eye consciousness
> 
> Eye base and visible object are rupas. Eye base is kamma-produced 
> rupa, so are you saying that the citta which created the kamma 
that 
> produced the rupa was akusala (only akusala cittas have moha)? I 
> suspect that this statement is incorrect and even if the statement 
> were correct, this is quite an indirect relationship between moha 
and 
> contact. Visible object is temperature-produced, so I can't see 
any 
> moha there either.
> 
> Eye consciousness is a kiriya citta; it has no roots. It has no 
moha 
> and it is not linked to kamma.
> 
> It is true that contact arises in all mental states, but only the 
> akusala mental states have moha.
> 
> Please help me to understand better.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33197

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 11:17pm
Subject: Re: The Practical View of Anatta

Dear Suravira

First of all, let me offer you a word or two of encouragement. I do 
appreciate your considerable efforts to analyse and disseminate the 
Dhamma and I happily admit to feeling a sense of comfort in knowing 
that there are people like you around and that we haven't all 
succumbed to that endless round of materialism and war-mongering. 
Keep up the good work! You are good at what you do.
Secondly and solely in order to reinforce Sarah's unwholesome view of 
lawyers, I have to accuse you of the heinous crime of misspelling a 
word (although it's probably something more to do with fonts). The 
word is "vatikkama" which I found only as "vitikkama". For those 
interested, I will put in another post a quotation from Mahathera 
Ledi Sayadaw on that topic.
Suravira, you and I share an interest in the pedagogy of the Dhamma 
in the west. You are doing a fat lot more about it than I am and 
your views carry alot more weight than mine. Nevertheless, may it be 
of benefit to share some differing perspectives - you never know, 
they may come up in discussions you have with students in the future.
The starting point on this issue is surely the Buddha's enlightenment 
and his initial inclination NOT to teach! We know that the god, 
Brahma Sahampati prompted him to overcome that inclination, 
particularly on the grounds that there were some beings "with little 
dust in their eyes" and easy to teach. One gets the impression that 
they were a small minority! We can't be surprised, therefore, to 
learn that the Buddha predicted the corruption and disappearance of 
his Dhamma. In other words, Suravira, we are teaching a subject that 
is in difficulty and will ultimately drop off the curriculum 
altogether! I have saddha that this will occur.
In the TV script, you advocate explaining Dhamma to westerners using 
some western psychology. The Tipitika, as we know, has its 
own "psychology" set out in the Abhidhamma. On the one hand, I see 
that your approach displays commonsense - when in Rome, do as the 
Romans do. On the other hand, I see a pitfall (damn lawyers ALWAYS 
see pitfalls, don't they?). Western science is driven by the 
scientific method which, in turn, is largely driven by ego, often in 
the form of Ph.D students all wanting to make their mark by debunking 
old "truths" or ushering in new ones. Look at the dietary sciences 
and how various foodstuffs go in and out of fashion based on the 
latest (industry-funded) research! Western science is an ongoing 
quest. The Dhamma is a teaching given by a fully enlightened being 
who had all the answers. Therefore, the pitfall of using western 
psychology to transmit the Dhamma is that the Dhamma will then 
necessarily go through periods of acceptance and rejection according 
to the latest paradigm holding sway (often only because one type of 
scientific research is better funded than another type). Tying the 
Dhamma to the vagaries of western science is IMHO a recipe for 
hybridisation and rejection. And we don't have to do it! Dhamma has 
its own "psychology" - something properly seen as a raft to be used 
and later abandoned.
Two groups that I am aware of have fallen into the trap of pegging 
their religion to the ups and downs of science. The Christian 
Science Church reacted to a "down" time in medical science and built 
a dogma over it. Lo and behold, medical science improved 
dramatically and left the Church looking silly. Today in Australia, 
another chap is making the same error - adopting and dogmatising 
current science for religious purposes. I predict he will go the 
same way as the Christian Scientists. (His name is Jeremy Griffith 
and you can read about his religion at www.humancondition.info).
This all sounds very negative, Suravira, but it needn't be - so long 
as we get the message across that the Dhamma is neither proved nor 
disproved by western psychology, that its own "psychology" is nothing 
more than a raft, a handful of leaves in the forest. It doesn't 
matter that western psychologists don't fully agree with "Buddhist 
psychology". It's actually quite irrelevant when viewed in proper 
context.
Getting down to some technical points in the TV script:
1. "to gain insight into this nature of awareness, this luminous 
purity, we must practice Samadhi and manifest Jhana." These 
contentions have been hotly contested by some on this list. There is 
another view ie that "dry insight" practitioners can attain the goal 
without jhana, and that jhana doesn't necessarily lead to insight. I 
won't go into that further.
2. that Samadhi practice is wholesome. Herein lies that perennial 
problem with the noun "practice". A period of say 5 minutes 
of "Samadhi practice" will no doubt involve thousands of unwholesome 
as well as wholesome cittas - possibly even some of gross self-view.
3. the difficulty involved in practising the discipline of Samadhi. 
Could it be that this is actually an indication not so much of fear 
but of having no control over conditions apart from one citta helping 
condition its successor? Perhaps we are at the whim of fetters and 
hindrances rather than being master of them?
4. the beautiful aspect of humanity - awareness. Are you here 
referring to citta?
5. that hindrances/fetters are atrophied (starved) by mindfulness. 
Yes, but in a single mind moment, they are either active or not. Do 
you not think that the expectation of an individual continuum is a 
conventional mode of thinking and not penetration into absolute truth?

Well, that's all I can think of. I hope it doesn't sound too 
negative because I am impressed by your work and hope that some of 
the comments above can help you to go from strength to strength.

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33198

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 11:23pm
Subject: Vitikkama

Dear Group
Regarding this term raised by Suravira, I found the following 
quotation from Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw in his Manual of Factors 
Leading to Enlightenment. I hope it is of interest.

"Ditthi is established in beings in three layers: 
1. vitikkama 
2. pariyutthana 
3. anusaya.[67] 
These layers are the realm of sakkaya-ditthi. They may be called 
coarse, middling, and fine ditthi. 
I shall how show how the offsprings of ditthi, the ten duccarita, 
enter into ditthi. 
The coarse ditthi of vitikkama comprises the akusala kamma committed 
through overt acts and speech. The middling ditthi of pariyutthana 
comprises the evils that occur in thoughts. Anusaya-ditthi is the 
evil that lies latent in the personalities of beings throughout 
anamatagga-samsara though it may not yet result in manifestations of 
acts, speech, or thoughts. 
It may be said that there are three kinds of fire in a match-box. The 
first is the fire that lies latent in the whole box of matches. The 
second is the fire that ignites the match stick when it is struck. 
The third is the fire that is transferred to another object when it 
is brought in contact with the flame of the match stick. Such a fire 
is that which burns rubbish heaps, clothes, houses, monasteries and 
villages. 
This fire, the fire that is transferred to another object, resembles 
the coarse vitakkama-ditthi. The fire that burns the match stick 
resembles the middling pariyutthana ditthi which is manifested in the 
mind every time it comes in contact with objects of thought. The fire 
that is latent in the box of matches resembles the fine anusaya-
ditthi that resides in the personalities of beings throughout the 
succession of lives in anama-tagga-samsara. 
This fire that lies latent in the box of matches does not burst into 
flame so long as the match head is not rubbed with the nitrous 
surface of the match-box, It does not cause any harm even if it be 
kept in contact with highly inflammable articles such as gunpowder. 
In the same way, the anusaya-ditthi lies latent in the personality 
and does not manifest itself so long as it does not come into contact 
with evil objects of thought or other causes of evil. When, however, 
evil objects of thought or other causes impinge on the six sense-
doors, the anusaya-ditthi is disturbed and begins to make itself 
manifest in the mind-door, or in the plane of the pariyutthana 
through the function of volition. If at that time the manifestations 
can be suppressed by good doctrines, they disappear from the 
pariyutthana plane and return to the anusaya plane and reside there 
as latent natural tendencies. If they cannot be suppressed, they 
continue to manifest themselves as developing volitions. If they are 
further disturbed (in the pariyutthana plane), they manifest 
themselves in the vitikkama plane in the form of evil speech or evil 
acts. 
In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama and 
pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and thoughts 
are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, or 
moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. If 
the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is 
exercised over the vitikkama and pariyutthana planes, such control 
can only be of a temporary nature. If the person is strong in the 
observance of good principles, the control can last for the whole of 
this life. But there can be no certainty about the next life, when 
upheavals in these two planes may recur."

Any comments?

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33199

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:02am
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> In the representation, I was trying to show a temporal relation, 
> indicating that ignorance is there as contact comes to be. I was 
> not trying to show a causal relation with 
> "Contact-----------Ignorance"
> 
> Please let me know if there is anything else regarding the 
> representation as whole that you would like me to explain.

Let's keep to this one for now because I am still confused. Why do 
you say that ignorance is always there as contact comes to be?

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33200

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:04am
Subject: Re: Vitikkama

Hi Andrew,

Exellent. Can you suggest any other of Ledi Sayadaw's manuals (other 
than Bodhipakkhiya Dipani) that cover this subject?

Metta,
Rob M :-)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <athel60@t...> 
wrote:
> Dear Group
> Regarding this term raised by Suravira, I found the following 
> quotation from Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw in his Manual of Factors 
> Leading to Enlightenment. I hope it is of interest.
	
33201

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 1:47am
Subject: Comments on The Basis of a Religious Life

Hi Suravira,

This section starts with, "The basis of a religious life is the 
capacity to see, and relate to, everyone you meet as a person in his 
or her own right."

I can see how this "capacity to see... " is the basis for harmonious 
communal living, but I have a hard time seeing this as the basis of a 
religious life. For example, the Thai forest monks can be said to be 
leading a very religious life, but I don't see how this "capacity to 
see..." relates to them.

Perhaps you takle this angle later, but you might want to mention the 
first verse of the Dhammapada (all things are mind-made...). Here is 
the preamble to the UNESCO constitution, "The Governments of the 
States Parties to this Constitution on behalf of their peoples 
declare: That since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the 
minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed..." Sound 
familiar? Perhaps U Thant had a part in writing this document. If you 
are interested, the complete document is at:

http://www.unesco.org/shs/human_rights/hrpreamble.htm


You might want to make the point about how the "ME" society (see my 
previous comments) leads to an indulgent, irrelegious life and then 
suggest that a non-"ME" perspective might be the basis of a religious 
life. This approach would incorporate the Thai forest monks.

In the Cuamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63) and again in the Simsapa Sutta (SN 
LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "And what 
have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the 
origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of 
suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of 
suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is 
beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads 
to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct 
knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared 
it."

You might want to present a simplified version of this quote to 
support your point. My concern is that when the Buddha talked 
about "fundamentals of the holy life", He was referring to the 
monastic life rather than for lay people. The fact that the Buddha 
starts with the four noble truths as the basis indicates to me the 
intended audience was monks rather than laypeople.

You wrote, "Authentic religious discipline is intended to transform 
ourselves, but this process does not occur in a vacuum. This 
transformation occurs within the setting of the community we live and 
work in." To my understanding, the Buddha did not set out to create a 
transformation within the lay community. The Buddha created a 
separate community, the Sangha, which lived by different rules to 
create a transformation within that separate community. The Vinaya 
rules cannot be applied to the lay community (for one thing, without 
marriage and procreation, the human race would die off :-) ).

You wrote, "In this way, our spiritual development has a 
reciprocating relationship to our community; we transform ourselves 
and our community is transformed; a community is transformed and its 
members are transformed." This is starting to sound like "group 
kamma"; a concept with which I am not comfortable. Do you have any 
Sutta references where the Buddha talked about lay community 
transformation?

You end this section with, "However, we will not be able to transform 
our hearts if we lack self-respect. Moreover, we will not be able to 
develop self-respect is we have a sense of self-worth that is 
deficient. In addition, our sense of self-worth will be deficient if 
we do not have a viable sense of self-esteem." To me, this sounds 
like a lot of "self" when the Buddha taught "non-self".

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33202

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 2:53am
Subject: Comments on Consequences of Conditional Love

Hi Suravira,

An interesting editorial that I generally agree with, but I did not 
find any Buddhism.

One point that I disagree with is, "In America attaining material 
achievement is of paramount importance, while generosity, charity, 
virtue, morality and ethics are of no real consequence. "

I remember reading a report in TIME (I think) that showed that 
America was among the most religious countries in the world. In most 
countries, as economic development increased, the "level of 
religiousness" decreased. America was an outlier; highly developed 
and highly religious.

In domestic US politics, I have the impression that morals and ethics 
have always been very important; consider the fixation with JFK's 
love life, Nixon's Watergate and Clinton's Lewinsky affair. In the 
international arena, the US has always taken the high moral ground; 
consider the linking of Human Rights with China trade. The current 
example is the Iraq prisoner abuse issue.

This discussion board is about religion, not about politics, so I 
have no interest in discussing political issues here. My point is 
that I suspect that Americans (your audience) tend to see themselves 
as being highly moral (especially south of the Mason-Dixon line, 
where you live).

It seems inappropriate for me, a Canadian living in Malaysia, to tell 
you about the character of your local community. It is just that what 
you are writing is at odds with my understanding of the situation. 
Please educate me.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33203

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 4:21am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 001 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Dhamma in its name has many definitions. Dhamma may be the nature. It 
may be the truth. It may be justice. It may be law. It may be the 
teachings of The Buddha. But if it is the Dhamma or The Dhamma, then 
it is one of three gems or triplegem called The Buddha, The Dhamma, 
The Sangha.

The Dhamma is the whole set of teachings of The Buddha. Buddhas are 
those who in their past lives had perfected 10 paramis or 
perfections, 10 upaparamis or 10 higher perfections and 10 paramattha 
paramis or the greatest perfections and when in their final life be 
reborn as a human being and finds all Dhamma ( all truths ) by 
themselves and preach to sattas or beings who are ready to attain 
some nanas and some kusala.

After The Buddha and The Dhamma have been explained to some extent, 
The Sangha needs to be understood. The Sangha are those who are 
ordained in the order of sangha and abide all the vinaya or rules and 
regulations passed as vinaya by The Buddha. They maintain what The 
Buddha taught and they practise what The Buddha taught. They preach 
Dhamma to people whenever the conditions favour.

These three gems or triplegem are refered to as gems. Gems are rare 
to be found while dirts are easily found. Gems are precious and keep 
as admirable things. Even these conventional gems may be ubiquitous 
while triplegems is the most precious to all as Buddhas appear as a 
rare event.

May we all admire triplegem.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33204

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 9:08am
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Rob M and all,

As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, 
attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until 

"With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He 
discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task 
done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

For beings going through the round of rebirth (again and again), 
ignorance is always there, from birth to death.

I was trying to convey the presence of ignorance throughout the 
process of dependent origination, through out the round of rebirth, 
from birth to death (and birth to death....)

I was also trying to show that craving and clinging are 
fabrications, and fabrications give rise to consciousness in 
becoming as being passes away(death). With consciousness as 
condition, nama-rupa come to be, and with nama-rupa, the six sense 
bases comes to be at birth.

As a whole, I was trying to show the pattern of rebirth with this 
representation of dependent origination.

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > In the representation, I was trying to show a temporal relation, 
> > indicating that ignorance is there as contact comes to be. I 
was 
> > not trying to show a causal relation with 
> > "Contact-----------Ignorance"
> > 
> > Please let me know if there is anything else regarding the 
> > representation as whole that you would like me to explain.
> 
> Let's keep to this one for now because I am still confused. Why do 
> you say that ignorance is always there as contact comes to be?
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33205

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Here is another example of Dependent Origination that I posted on another 
list. It might interest some of you and irritate some of the NAG. I don't 
especially want to defend the use of conscious action and decision here.

jack

>>For an example, I will use something that happened to me. I was driving in a
car and saw another driver with a horribly disfigured face, probably a burn
victim. I felt revulsion. Then, I felt connectiveness with him; he could be
me; brothers under the skin, etc.

The Abhidharma presents several models of perception (sanna). One using the
Cycle of Dependent Origination is as follows. My seeing the burn victim
(phassa) was conditioned by both an inner and outer basis (ayatana). The
outer basis was his disfigured face. The inner basis was my
hang-ups/conditioning about disfigured faces. This conditioning altered my
perception of the event. Arising with my consciousness of this event was a
sensation (vedana), which could be pleasurable, not pleasurable or neutral.
In this case it was of revulsion or not pleasurable.

Several important points about this process up to this point. First is that I
had no control over this process. It is based on the past and I can't alter
the past. It is not an occasion for guilt. But, I can affect my inner basis
for future events. Since it is based on conditioning (karma), I can, by
making skillful choices, change the inner basis that is part of future
events. Realizing this was extremely important to me. I started making an
effort to skillfully react to minor events because this would later impact
how I would react to major events. Another way of saying this is I tried to
exercise every day by lifting light weights to _build_ myself up to the
point where I could better lift the major weights life throws at me. Even
very small, seemingly insignificant decisions -smashing an insect, talking to
a telephone solicitor, reacting to a beggar on the street, etc., took on a
much greater importance.

Back to the process, what usually happens after sensation arises is that I
tend to want to continue this sensation of pleasure or try to avoid a
sensation of nonpleasure. This results in greed (tanha) which results in
attachment (upadana) which further locks me into greed. I cause suffering by
wishing things to be different than they are. Then, since I haven't learned
anything during the whole process, I repeat this whole cycle of suffering for
a similar event in the future (bhava). Some commentators say perception
(sanna) only involves the mental fomations described in this paragraph that
occur after sensation arises.

One result of this process is that that it appears to be automatic. It seems
to just happen. I get caught in the process. I don't think there is another
way to react. I am entirely controlled by my conditioning. My computer
program built on past events runs to completion.

But, it doesn't have to be this way. I had a choice after sensation arose.
Here is where skillful action can occur. If I am aware of my aversion, I
don't have to react. I can watch aversion arise and pass away without letting
it go any further. I can break out of the Cycle. I could put a stop in my
conditioning/computer program. I could take the path of liberation and break
loose of my conditioning. I did this in my example of seeing the burn victim.

The Abhidhamma also uses another model to look at this process. Perception
starts with the first awareness of an event. Then we paste a label on it.
This label which is a result of our conditioning is strongly influenced by
our self interest. We tend to look at the world as our tool. This distorts
our perception. A pickpocket upon meeting a saint only sees his pockets. We
don't see the outside world clearly. To compound this problem, this
perception which includes all these subjective judgments is stored in our
memory and affects similar perceptions in the future.

Through mindfulness training we can learn to contemplate hearing in the
hearing, seeing in the seeing, etc., without contemplating them through the
cloudy lens of our self interest. We can learn to see clearly.<


	
33206

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:30am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/21/04 12:11:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Rob M and all,
> 
> As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, 
> attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until 
> 
> "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He 
> discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task 
> done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
> 
> For beings going through the round of rebirth (again and again), 
> ignorance is always there, from birth to death.
> 
> I was trying to convey the presence of ignorance throughout the 
> process of dependent origination, through out the round of rebirth, 
> from birth to death (and birth to death....)
> 
> I was also trying to show that craving and clinging are 
> fabrications, and fabrications give rise to consciousness in 
> becoming as being passes away(death). With consciousness as 
> condition, nama-rupa come to be, and with nama-rupa, the six sense 
> bases comes to be at birth.
> 
> As a whole, I was trying to show the pattern of rebirth with this 
> representation of dependent origination.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
> 
=========================
Thanks for this clarification. It - especially, I find, with regard to 
craving and clinging being fabrications, and leading to vi~n~nana - is very 
helpful. 
Could you say a bit more, please, with regard to the "equivalence" 
part of this analysis?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33207

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:38am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi, Jack -

In a message dated 5/21/04 12:23:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jackhat1@a... writes:

> But, it doesn't have to be this way. I had a choice after sensation arose.
> Here is where skillful action can occur. If I am aware of my aversion, I
> don't have to react. I can watch aversion arise and pass away without 
> letting
> it go any further. I can break out of the Cycle. I could put a stop in my
> conditioning/computer program. I could take the path of liberation and break
> loose of my conditioning. I did this in my example of seeing the burn 
> victim.
> 
===================
Yes. If there is already well established (by study, contemplation, 
and repeated application of guarding the senses) the habit of avoiding harmful 
proliferation, then as soon as tanha is detected, further papanca may be 
avoided. And with sufficient development of mindfulness, attention, concentration, 
and clear comprehension, one may even get to the point of stopping at pleasant 
or unpleasant vedana, avoiding even the initial reaction of tanha. That, of 
course, is already quite advanced.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33208

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 10:00am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 002 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The Buddha preached many dhammas. He preached whenever there was a 
condition for preaching the Dhamma. He lived 80 years as a human 
being. But He was not an ordinary human being. All the perfections 
that His past lives made, made Him the greatest person in the whole 
universe.

The Buddha Siddhattha Gotama entered Buddhahood on His 35th birthday. 
In His remaining 45 years, He preached Dhamma a lot for sattas. He 
sometimes preached to a single person while there were countless 
witnessing devas and brahmas. Sometimes The Buddha preached to a 
group of people.

At the time of The Buddha Mahaparinibbana, there arose opposing words 
from puthujana bhikkhus and some bhikkhu followed him and joined him 
because they disliked vinaya because tight vinaya limited their 
itchiness or puthujana's endless desire. Since then, there have been 
many many divisions. These divisions were mainly happened among 
puthujana bhikkhus. 

Puthujhana is a Pali word. It is made up of 'puthu' and 'jananam'. 
Puthu means many and jananam means causing to arise. Puthujana means 
causing many many defilements to arise. These defilements made those 
bhikkhus to deviated from The Buddha teachings which included vinaya 
or rules and regulations for bhikkhus to abide by.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33209

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 6:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

In a message dated 5/21/04 9:41:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... 
writes:
> But, it doesn't have to be this way. I had a choice after sensation arose.
> Here is where skillful action can occur. If I am aware of my aversion, I
> don't have to react. I can watch aversion arise and pass away without 
> letting
> it go any further. I can break out of the Cycle. I could put a stop in my
> conditioning/computer program. I could take the path of liberation and break
> loose of my conditioning. I did this in my example of seeing the burn 
> victim.
> 
===================
Yes. If there is already well established (by study, contemplation, 
and repeated application of guarding the senses) the habit of avoiding 
harmful 
proliferation, then as soon as tanha is detected, further papanca may be 
avoided. And with sufficient development of mindfulness, attention, 
concentration, 
and clear comprehension, one may even get to the point of stopping at 
pleasant 
or unpleasant vedana, avoiding even the initial reaction of tanha. That, of 
course, is already quite advanced.
====


Howard,

My opinion which I hesitate to say on this list is that very little knowledge 
is needed but lots and lots of practice on the cushion. I can sometimes see 
it all play out and be very mindful of vedana in deep meditation and in a few 
instances in the midst of daily life. I don't think a general sense of its 
playing out is that difficult to attain.

jack


	
33210

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 11:01am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 5

Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 5

Awareness can arise when there are the right conditions for its arising, but
we should not expect many moments of it. Awareness and understanding can be
gradually accumulated. It is not enough to be aware of rúpas of the body,
also nåma has to be known. Kusala and akusala have to be known, thinking has
to be known, understanding itself has to be known as only a nåma, otherwise
we cling to it and take it for ³my² understanding.
The Commentary to the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² explains that
foolish people cling to rank, they want to obtain a high position in
society. The monk wants to escape danger and leaves the home life. However,
also monks have defilements, they may quarrel, such as the monks in Kosambi.
We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse,
all these elements appear clearly, just as the reflection of his face
clearly appears to someone using a mirror. Therefore, the Buddha said to
Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the ³Mirror of
Dhamma². 
We have many defilements and we are troubled by many kinds of contrarieties
in our life. We think of other persons who treat us in a disagreeable way.
However, we can learn that, in the ultimate sense, there is not ³me², not
the other person, but that there are only elements or dhammas. Dhammas can
appear as clearly as the reflection in a mirror.
We read in the Commentary that someone who learns to develop vipassanå will
overcome defilements and eradicates them completely when he becomes an
arahat, just as a soldier who conquers in a battle. Therefore, the Buddha
also called this sutta the ³Drum of the Deathless². The Deathless is
nibbåna, the arahat has reached the end of birth and death. This sutta
refers to the development of insight: one becomes skilled in the elements
through insight. We read in the Commentary that vipassanå is compared to
munition used in a battle. By means of this munition one can overcome all
defilements. The Buddha also called this Discourse the ³Incomparable Victory
in the Battle.²
This Discourse can remind us that we have to be courageous in the
development of insight so that we eventually reach the goal. The objects of
insight are all the elements as explained in this sutta. These elements
appear all day through the six doorways. Visible object impinges at this
moment on the eyesense so that seeing can arise. If there were no citta,
visible object could not appear. We may believe that we see a person, but we
cannot see a person, we can only think of him. Thinking is another element.
Buddhaghosa states page after page that the truth about the khandhas, the
dhåtus (elements), the åyatanas (sense-fields) is taught by the Buddha.
Buddhaghosa repeats that vipassanå is to be developed of the khandhas, the
dhåtus, the åyatanas. In this way he reminds us to be aware of them now,
since they pertain to daily life. Buddhaghosa stresses that the Buddha
taught our being in the cycle, vatta, and being released from the cycle,
vivatta. We are in the cycle now, we are subject to dukkha.
****
Nina
	
33211

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Howard and all,

First of all, I would like to correct myself regarding what I said:

'As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, 
attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until 

"With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He 
discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task 
done. There is nothing further for this world.'"'

I want to say that as long as one has not known the Four Noble 
Truths, there is always ignorance. In other words, ignorance is not 
knowing the Four Noble Truths.

Craving and clinging are fabrications, specifically, fabrications 
conditioned by ignorance. Craving leads to clinging and clinging 
give rise to becoming, starting another round of birth, aging, and 
death, giving rise to this whole mass of the dukkha.

However, with the cessation of ignorance, that is, knowing the Four 
Noble Truths, one undertakes the Noble Eightfold Path that leads to 
the cessation of the dukkha. The Noble Eightfold Path is a 
fabricated path, and all eight factors of the Path are also 
fabrications. However, they are the fabrications leading to 
cessation of craving, thus leading to the cessation of all 
fabrications.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/21/04 12:11:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > Hi Rob M and all,
> > 
> > As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, 
> > attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until 
> > 
> > "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He 
> > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task 
> > done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
> > 
> > For beings going through the round of rebirth (again and again), 
> > ignorance is always there, from birth to death.
> > 
> > I was trying to convey the presence of ignorance throughout the 
> > process of dependent origination, through out the round of 
rebirth, 
> > from birth to death (and birth to death....)
> > 
> > I was also trying to show that craving and clinging are 
> > fabrications, and fabrications give rise to consciousness in 
> > becoming as being passes away(death). With consciousness as 
> > condition, nama-rupa come to be, and with nama-rupa, the six 
sense 
> > bases comes to be at birth.
> > 
> > As a whole, I was trying to show the pattern of rebirth with 
this 
> > representation of dependent origination.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> > 
> > 
> =========================
> Thanks for this clarification. It - especially, I find, 
with regard to 
> craving and clinging being fabrications, and leading to vi~n~nana -
is very 
> helpful. 
> Could you say a bit more, please, with regard to 
the "equivalence" 
> part of this analysis?
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33212

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:20pm
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 003 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

As they could see the forseeable danger to The Buddha Sasana, arahats 
sangha all agreed and decided to compile all teaching. 4 months after 
Mahaparinibbana of The Buddha, The First Buddhists' Council was held 
with the aid of the king Ajatasattu.

Venerable Mahakassappa acted as the main questioner and Venerable 
Ananda acted as the sole answerer. The Dhamma were brought forward by 
The Sangha at first through oral citations. At hard time of famine, 
The Sangha continued to cite not to forget the taught Dhamma so that 
some had to vomit blood.

The same fashion of Buddhists' Councils were taken successfully 
another two times. At 4th Buddhist Council, there appeared written 
language and Dhamma were recorded on leaves and they were stored in a 
safe place so that enemies could not destroyed.

Candamukhi was an ogress and lived on a hill called Mandalar. When 
The Buddha and Ananda were there, Candamukhi cut her breasts and 
offered The Buddha. The Buddha smiled. Smiling of The Buddha was 
rare. 'Ananda! This ogress would be reborn as a human around this 
place. He would become a king and he would maintain My Sasana. 

That ogress became the sponsor of the 5th Buddhists' Council which 
was taken in the mid 19th centuary and he had Dhamma sculptured on 
729 marble stone slabs which can still be seen today.

May you all be free from suffering.

With unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	


33213

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi, Jack -

In a message dated 5/21/04 1:35:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... 
writes:

> Yes. If there is already well established (by study, contemplation, 
> and repeated application of guarding the senses) the habit of avoiding 
> harmful 
> proliferation, then as soon as tanha is detected, further papanca may be 
> avoided. And with sufficient development of mindfulness, attention, 
> concentration, 
> and clear comprehension, one may even get to the point of stopping at 
> pleasant 
> or unpleasant vedana, avoiding even the initial reaction of tanha. That, of 
> course, is already quite advanced.
> ====
> 
> 
> Howard,
> 
> My opinion which I hesitate to say on this list is that very little 
> knowledge 
> is needed but lots and lots of practice on the cushion. I can sometimes see 
> it all play out and be very mindful of vedana in deep meditation and in a 
> few 
> instances in the midst of daily life. I don't think a general sense of its 
> playing out is that difficult to attain.
> 
> jack
> 
=======================
Well, as you know, I agree with you on this.There is a limit to how 
much detail is really needed. But study of what the Buddha taught, especially as 
taught in various manners and under varying circumstances, is useful, 
especially, I think, in terms of encouragement and correction of misinterpretation of 
experience. As far as contemplation is concerned, I think that is *very* 
important in building resolve and in reminding oneself to maintain the practice.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	

 	 

	
33214

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Hello Nina, and all

Thank you as always for your feedback, Nina.

N: >> They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise 
with the
> akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been 
eradicated
> they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie 
dormant in
> the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have 
not been
> eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the 
arising
> of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions.
>They can
> condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of 
transgression
> of sú‰a at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated 
again and
> added to the latent tendencies. 

Ph: I guess at my stage of understanding, being told that there are 
these subtle defilements and having an intellectual belief in them is 
a good begining. It certainly helps to make me more patient with 
myself and others. But that for now being aware of gross 
transgressions when they occur - and they do - is my Dhamma 
workground. What is that term that is something like a "Dhamma 
workground?" How do we know what out "Dhamma wrokground" is? 


N : >The teaching of the latent tendencies helps
> us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising 
again
> and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and 
uncontrollable.>

Ph: I am feeling very loose and relaxed because of this new sense 
of people behaving in an unforseeable and uncontrollable way. Loose 
and relaxed, though a bit disappointed that I have to rethink my 
life's goals, which had to do with helping others to a degree that I 
see now to have been based on wrong understanding of realities.

(snip)

I asked about regret and sense of shame.

N: > Sense of shame: this is kusala when it accompanies
> kusala citta and abhors akusala. When we read shame, abhor, in the
> Abhidhamma this does not have the same meaning as in conventional 
language.
> With the wholesome shame here is no aversion, no unpleasant 
feeling. It is a
> sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, hiri. Hiri, moral shame and ottappa, 
fear of
> blame, accompany each kusala citta and they keep one from akusala.


Ph: I have a question about something that I have seen arising in 
my behaviour. I guess it started about two years ago - making a 
conscious efort not to glance at women who were coming the opposite 
direction on sidewalks, etc. This is a very strong habit pattern for 
many men, I think, "checking out", unconsciously, women that are 
coming towards them. Just a quick look, a quick calculation at some 
level about whether they are "attractive" or not. Maybe it's not as 
common as I think, and it was just me. In any case, I became aware of 
the tendency and I started to make a consious effort not to glance. 
Not so easy, especially on a sunny spring day! And this new behaviour 
has become habitual, and I don't look. I find it interesting and tell 
Naomi about it, and she says "If you don't look, how do you know they 
are there?" Well, I see them peripherally, you know, and there is a 
lot of exposed flesh, perhaps, and a desire to look, but I don't! 
Now, this is not done not mainly out of a sense of trying to supress 
or deradicate lust. The main purpose is out of consideration for the 
other. I know what it's like to be glanced at by many people who walk 
by, because people are interested in foreigners here, and might want 
to compare a short plain-looking one walking by to their image of 
westerners all being towering hunks. So when I don't glance, it feels 
like an intention not to cause the other to feel like she were a 
piece of meat being assesed. 
Is that hiri, perhaps? I do think it is a kind of kusala but I'm 
curious to know how it would be classified.

(snip)

N: > There is an akusala cetasika regret: kukkucca. It is
> translated as regret or worry. It arises with a citta rooted in 
aversion and
> is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Its proximate cause are the 
kusala one
> omitted or the akusala one committed. We can see the disadvantage of
> worrying about the kusala we did not perform and the akusala we did 
in the
> past. It does not bring any good, it causes more aversion, and this 
is added
> to the latent tendency of aversion.
> The Abhidhamma is very precise, very practical and realistic.

Ph: This is very interesting. I will take close note of it. Kukucca.

(snip)

> Ph: At this point in my understanding it seems
> > that attachment to dhamma discussion is a wholesome thing that
> > inevitably leads us to deeper understanding and therefore panna 
and
> > release from attachment.
> N: It is natural that attachment arises in between kusala cittas 
with
> understanding. We cannot catch all those moments. But, we cannot 
say that it
> is attachment itself that leads to more understanding. Attachment 
leads to
> more attachment. We have to know the right cause for the right 
result.

Ph: I see. There are many moments of attachment when I study 
Dhamma, but there are also a few moments of right understanding. It 
is not the moments of attachment that condition me to study more, but 
the moments of right understanding. Well, the moments of attachment 
may condition me to pick up a book or sit on the cushion, but those 
forms of beahaviour do not mean right understanding will arise. Only 
right understanding can comdition more right understanding.

(snip)


> Ph: I have an inkling that working on defilements and hindrances 
will
> > unleash a more productive Phil, just as it releases more metta and
> > other beautiful cetasikas. But no expecations.
> N: Instead of working on defilements, I would rather stress: having 
more
> understanding of them. The Buddha stressed: comprehension.

Ph: Yes. Understanding. But again, I ask about that term that is 
something like a " Dhamma workground." I don't remember if I heard it 
in one of your books, or in a talk by Ayya Khema. She certainly uses 
more terms that suggest doing "work", which I know doesn't seeem to 
fall in with no-self, and yet, and yet...I do sense there is work to 
be done, patiently, with awareness that it is not self that is doing 
the work, but the Buddha's teaching that is working through one and 
conditioning the arising of necessary work. Something like that. 

Metta,
Phil
	
33215

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 1:46pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

In a message dated 5/21/04 5:07:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... 
writes:
Well, as you know, I agree with you on this.There is a limit to how 
much detail is really needed. But study of what the Buddha taught, especially 
as 
taught in various manners and under varying circumstances, is useful, 
especially, I think, in terms of encouragement and correction of 
misinterpretation of 
experience. As far as contemplation is concerned, I think that is *very* 
important in building resolve and in reminding oneself to maintain the 
practice.
=====
Howard,

The suttas stress the role of vedana in Dependent Origination. Any idea why 
few if any teachers stress mindfulness of vedana in meditation?

jack


	
33216

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 4:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi, Jack -

In a message dated 5/21/04 8:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... 
writes:

> Howard,
> 
> The suttas stress the role of vedana in Dependent Origination. Any idea why 
> few if any teachers stress mindfulness of vedana in meditation?
> 
> jack
> 
=======================
Well, Goenka certainly stresses it, though he seems to smear together 
physical sensation and feeling - that is, he seems to me to conflate rupa and 
vedana. Perhaps one reason why vedana is not often singled out for attention 
is that it really is difficult to separate affective flavor of an experience 
from the experience itself.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33217

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri May 21, 2004 8:21pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hello Jack, Howard, all,

Jack - no need to hesitate to give your opinion on this list - it is 
welcome, and no-one will feel irritated or threatened in the 
slightest. 
Irrespective of whether one believes in a particular set practice, 
or not, - the great importance of pariyatti, study, has been 
emphasised by the Blessed One.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses 
that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, 
transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will 
lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these 
teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should 
train yourselves." 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-007.html

---------
As we can see, the word "dhamma" in these passages seems to refer to 
a very carefully crafted curriculum of teachings, and that there was 
a great concern that this body of material be accurately and 
precisely communicated from teacher to student. The realization in 
personal experience and the integrity of intention also seem to be 
areas of particular concern in the ancient context, as they are 
today.

Teaching the Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:159
It is not easy to teach dhamma to others.
Concerning the teaching of dhamma to others, only after five things 
have been internally established is dhamma to be taught to others. 
What five?
1. "I shall speak a graduated discourse…"
2. "I shall speak a discourse that is insightfully-arranged…"
3. "I shall speak a discourse grounded upon caring…"
4. "I shall speak a discourse without motivation for personal gain…"
5. "I shall speak a discourse without disparaging myself or others…"
…thus is dhamma to be taught to others.


Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the 
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:
1. do not carefully hear the dhamma,
2. do not carefully learn the dhamma,
3. do not carefully retain the dhamma, 
4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained 
dhamma, and 
5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma 
according to dhamma.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:155
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the 
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:
1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains, 
verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions;
2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it 
and as they have understood it; 
3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard 
it and as they have understood it;
4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it 
and as they have understood it;
5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with 
the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have 
understood it.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:156
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the 
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five?
1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, mis-
arranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of 
the mis-arranged words and letters.
2. When monks mis-speak, do things that constitute mis-behavior, are 
endowed with a lack of patience/forbearance, and possess little 
talent for grasping the teaching.
3. When the monks who have learned much, who have received what has 
been passed down, who have retained the dhamma, the vinaya and the 
manuals, —they do not make others carefully speak the discourses; 
and because of their lapse the discourses become something with its 
roots severed, without a refuge.
4. When the senior monks live in luxury, take the lead in falling 
into laxity, lay aside the responsibility of dwelling in seclusion, 
and no longer put forth effort: to attain what has not yet been 
attained, to achieve what has not yet been achieved, to experience 
what has not yet been experienced.
5. When the community is divided. When the community is divided, 
then there is shouting at one another, there is blaming one another, 
there is closing in on one another, there is giving up on one 
another. Those who are not clear do not get clear there, and the few 
who are clear become otherwise.

http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2000b/ss_teaching.htm

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote:

Jack: My opinion which I hesitate to say on this list is that very 
little knowledge 
> is needed but lots and lots of practice on the cushion. I can 
sometimes see 
> it all play out and be very mindful of vedana in deep meditation 
and in a few 
> instances in the midst of daily life. I don't think a general 
sense of its 
> playing out is that difficult to attain.
> 
> jack
	
33218

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 4:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

KenH, and Victor

--- kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> wrote: 
> Hi Victor,
> 
> You wrote:
> ----------------
> In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. 
> They are:
> 1. Association with superior persons
> 2. Hearing the true Dhamma
> 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara]
> 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma
> 
> When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for 
> stream-entry?
> --------------------
> 
> Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha 
> (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha 
> are those you have listed above. They include pariyati 
> (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and 
> patipatti, which is 4. 
> 
> So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that 
> is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would 
> have been correct, too. 

Yes, I think so. These same 4 factors are also given in a set of suttas
at SN 55:55 to 61 as things that when developed and cultivated lead to:
the obtaining of wisdom [59]
the growth of wisdom [60]
the expansion of wisdom [61]
the realization of the fruit of stream-entry [55]
the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56]
the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57]
the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58]

So they are as applicable for the beginner ('the obtaining of wisdom') as
for the enlightened being, as relevant to pariyatti as to pativedha.

Jon

	
33219

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 4:40am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Howard

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Jack) -
...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that
dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the
sense of being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha
is felt unhappiness or sorrow or distress. (Of course, other commentaries
might well point in a different direction. I don't think it makes sense to
let one's interpretation of the Dhamma rise and fall with each different
commentarrial position encountered! ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

An interesting comment! Could you perhaps give a specific example of
different commentarial positions being taken on the same point.

Jon

	
33220

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 4:51am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah and all,
... 
> In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is 
> dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, 
> it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
> dukkha, death is not itself dukkha.
> 
> The view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, 
> death is not itself dukkha" presented in Sammohovinodani directly 
> contradicts what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha 
> that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha.

The full statement of the first Noble Truth ends with words that summarise
all the preceding part of the statement as being the five aggregates of
clinging. So any reading of the Truth needs to accommodate that important
summary. I think the text of the Sammohavinodani does just this.

Jon


	
33222

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 6:57am
Subject: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Jon and Sarah,

Given the quote provided by Sarah, it is stated in Sammohavinodani 
that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death 
is not itself dukkha.

This view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, 
death is not itself dukkha" directly contradicts to what the Buddha 
taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, old 
age is dukkha, death is dukkha. 

Do you mean that because the five aggregates of clinging/sustenance 
are dukkha, birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
dukkha, death is not itself dukkha? 

or 

Do you mean that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah and all,
> ... 
> > In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth 
is 
> > dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in 
Sammohavinodani, 
> > it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not 
itself 
> > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha.
> > 
> > The view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
dukkha, 
> > death is not itself dukkha" presented in Sammohovinodani 
directly 
> > contradicts what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the 
Dukkha 
> > that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha.
> 
> The full statement of the first Noble Truth ends with words that 
summarise
> all the preceding part of the statement as being the five 
aggregates of
> clinging. So any reading of the Truth needs to accommodate that 
important
> summary. I think the text of the Sammohavinodani does just this.
> 
> Jon
	
33223

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 3:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/22/04 7:56:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jonoabb@y... writes:

> An interesting comment! Could you perhaps give a specific example of
> different commentarial positions being taken on the same point.
> 
========================
I don't know any, Jon. I was merely indicating that finding some 
commentarial positions that support my own view should not be decisive. I was 
merely admitting to the possibility that I might be latching onto commentaries that 
I like as support for my position. I'm aware that that we humans tend to 
cling to our opinions, and as soon as we come across "authoritative" support for 
them, we search no further.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33224

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:36am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 004 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There have been a total of six Buddhists' Councils. In the sixth 
Buddhist Council, all teachings were made into printed form and 
translations are available. Dhamma are a lot. But in essence, there 
are four in terms of their characters.

They are four paramattha dhamma. Paramattha is made up of parama and 
attha. Parama means great while attha means meaning or essence. So 
paramattha means the greatest essence. These 4 dhamma are citta, 
cetasika, rupa and nibbana.

They each have their own characteristics and they are realities in 
ultimate sense. They are also called universal truth. These four 
dhamma are ultimate truth. This means that they are always true at 
any time and at any era and anywhere.

Citta is translated as consciousness. Cetasikas are translated as 
mental factors. Rupa is material. Nibbana is translated as absolute 
peace. Apart from these four dhamma, there is no other realities in 
essence.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33225

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6

Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6

In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied. The Abhidhamma
explains ultimate realities and these are the objects of insight. People at
the Buddha's time had no misunderstandings about this, but since we are
further away from the Buddha's time we need more detailed explanations. The
Commentaries clearly explain about the Abhidhamma and its application in the
development of insight. Without the commentaries we would be lost.
We need endless patience and perseverance in the development of vipassanå.
We have to consider nåma and rúpa and be aware of them so that we become
familiar with their different characteristics. It has to be remembered that
nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not experience anything.
We can be inspired by people¹s patience at the time of the Bodhisatta
Sumedha. We read in the ³Chronicle of the Buddhas² (Buddhavamsa, II a
Sumedha, vs. 71-76) that the Buddha, during his life as the Bodhisatta
Sumedha, was proclaimed a future Buddha by the Buddha Dípankara. We read
about people¹s reactions to this event:

71. When they had heard these words of the great seer who was without an
equal, men and deities, rejoicing, thought: ³Sprout of the Buddha-seed is
this².
72. The sounds of acclamation went on; the (inhabitants of the )ten-thousand
(world-system with the devas clapped their hands, laughed and paid homage
with clasped hands.
73. (Saying) ³If we should fail of the Dispensation of this protector of the
world, in the distant future we will be face to face with this one....²

The Bodhisatta Sumedha had to develop all the perfections for aeons in order
to attain Buddhahood, and people at that time had great patience. They had
courage and perseverance to continue developing right understanding and all
the other perfections for aeons so that they would attain the goal.
When we consider how long it takes to develop paññå we can think with
respect and gratefulness of the Buddha who had endless patience to develop
the perfections for our sake, so that we would have the opportunity to
develop understanding at this moment. Acharn Sujin said, ³When you think of
the aeons it takes to develop understanding you are actually praising the
Buddha¹s excellent qualities.²
******* 
Nina.
	
33226

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit, Chapter One, no 2

Dear Philip,
I just continue. 
op 18-05-2004 01:34 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> S. : The word kusala refers to the nature of the citta which is
> good and beautiful..... Even if
> someone has no things he can give away there can be kusala citta.
> There are many other kinds of kusala besides the giving away of
> things. 
> 
Ph: Thich Nhat Hahn wrote about this and said that we can give our
> presence our stability our freedom (meaning ways of finding joy free
> from affliction) our freshness, our peace, and space. These concepts
> are very conceptual and airy but they helped me a lot to be a better
> teacher. 
N: I want to add: I just listened to A. Sujin's lecture in a hospital. She
talks about very simple things that we can apply. Generosity: We can also
give knowledge to others, even if it is not about dhamma. She talked about
agreeable speech, a kind word that is pleasant to hear for someone else,
that makes him happy. It does not cost any money! She said this is very
important. People will think this is too simple, but the source is kusala
citta and we can learn more about kusala and see its benefit, so that there
is less selfishness and kusala can be accumulated. I learnt this when I went
around with her when living in Thailand. She would say: that is your kusala
citta. I learnt something new, because I had not thought of it that way. I
just did things in a thoughtless way. Just like you say now, you did not
know before about not hiding your kusala, or expressing your appreciation
about other's kusala.
> 
> S. :....We can transfer our kusala to others by
> letting them know about our good deeds so that they, in their turn,
> can have kusala cittas with appreciation of our good deeds. They
> rejoice in the kusala we have performed.
> 
> Ph:... It goes against the usual
> thinking that our good deeds should be done without calling attention
> to them. Of course it should be done subtly. It brings about mudita.
> Obviously it would be easy to misinterpret the above. )
N: Right, mudita. Someone who misinterpretes, well that is his akusala
citta. Anything can be misinterpretated. All these things may be strange at
first to "Western minds". But once one understands one can see the benefit
of learning about cittas.
> S. :.... The appreciation of someone elses kusala is another way
> of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else.
> This way of kusala is called in Paali: pattanumodana
> 
Ph: I will give this a shot now and tell you that I decided to
> share passages of this book with you as a way of performing dana. ..
> So, are you feeling kusala in appreciation of any kusala I have
> from sharing this book with you? :)
N: Anumodana, I appreciate it. I also appreciate it that you are openminded
to learn more. 
> S: Besides the above mentioned ways of kusala there is still another
> way. When we have performed a deed of generosity there can again be
> kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on the daana... the
> cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala.
> 
> Ph: This is very interesting. Again it seems to go against my
> conventional thinking that it could create attachment to one?fs deeds
> as self, and a self-pleased feeling, with the emphasis on self.
> Wouldn?ft letting go of the good deed with faith in the Buddha?fs
> teaching that wholesome deeds lead to more of the same be the way to
> go?)
N: Attachment is bound to alternate with kusala, but that is natural. By
these examples we learn more on the nature of kusala citta and about the
occasions when it can arise, and this is helpful. When we do simple things
for others we can learn: yes, it is not me, it is kusala citta.
Another things stressed by A.S.: behaviour that is beneficial. Spending
one's life in a useful way, even helping in seemingly unimportant things,
helping someone to carry a load, or showing him the way, helping with books
etc. or, as Christine does: giving helpful links. That is her kusala citta.
She sent you a letter with good tips about getting a pension, etc. That is
her kusala citta and we can appreciate it. People may find it unimportant to
think about these things, but I believe it helps for the understanding of
citta as it arises in our daily situation and in our social contacts. It
helps us to apply the Dhamma in speech and deeds.
You have already a lot to read, but I just mention "My time with A. Sujin",
which is about all the practical things I learnt from her. It is simple and
short, it is a correspondance I had with a Japanese friend, Kiyo.
Nina.
	
33227

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three levels of defilements

Hi Rob M,
op 21-05-2004 07:07 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

This is very interesting stuff and I would like more. I am trying to
> understand what happens when "thinking goes wrong".
N: Then there is paryutthana kilesa, medium defilement. It is not vitikkama,
a transgression. Unless you plan to take someone's possessions away. I just
quote what happens:
<When there are still latent tendencies there are conditions for the arising
of pariyutthåna defilements (medium defielements arising with the akusala
citta) and these must be accompanied by feeling and other conascent
dhammas. There must also be an object that is appropriate for that kind of
pariyutthåna defilement, and when it attaches weight that object, that
defilement is strong. When it has fallen away, it conditions the
accumulation of that kind of defilement to go on as latent tendency.>
Thus it can condition again and again pariyutthaana kilesa, and these fall
away and are accumulated as latent tendency. This process is repeating all
the time. 
R: I am still trying
> to articulate it, but my current understanding is that the three
> levels of defilements are the conditions, natural decisive support is
> the mode of conditioning and the current mental state is that which
> is conditioned. 
N: But now we can be more precise about the three levels and the way they
operate. Subtle defilement is very strong, because it cannot yet be
eradicated, only by lokuttara citta. It is called subtle because it does not
arise, it lies dormant just like microbes.
R:The vipallasa are high level descriptions of the
> process (however, the three vipallasa do not correlate to the three
> levels of defilements).
N: Each akusala citta that arises has vipallasa. This is another aspect.
Nina.
	
33228

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eye-consciousness.

Hi Rob M,
op 21-05-2004 07:20 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> 
> Eye consciousness is a kiriya citta; it has no roots. It has no moha
> and it is not linked to kamma.
N: This is perhaps a typo. It is ahetuka vipakaacitta, produced by kamma.
All sense-cognitions are the results of kamma.
Nina.
	
33229

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 1:53pm
Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6

Hi Nina and all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6
> 
> In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied. The 
Abhidhamma
> explains ultimate realities and these are the objects of insight. 
[snip]


Are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following discourses?

If so, how?

Anguttara Nikaya II.23
Abhasita Sutta
What Was Not Said
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains 
what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by 
the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the 
Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who 
slander the Tathagata." 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-023.html

Anguttara Nikaya II.25
Neyyattha Sutta
A Meaning to be Inferred
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains 
a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning 
has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse 
whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning 
needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-025.html



Metta,
Victor
[snip]
> ******* 
> Nina.


Metta,
Victor
	
33230

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 2:59pm
Subject: Kammatthana and 40 classical meditation themes

Hello all. Questions at the end, if you'd like to skip the preamble.

Yesterday I was asking Nina about a term I vaguely remembered being 
something like a "workground" for our practice. 

> Ph: I guess at my stage of understanding, being told that there 
are 
> these subtle defilements and having an intellectual belief in them 
is 
> a good begining. It certainly helps to make me more patient with 
> myself and others. But that for now being aware of gross 
> transgressions when they occur - and they do - is my Dhamma 
> workground. What is that term that is something like a "Dhamma 
> workground?" How do we know what out "Dhamma wrokground" is? 


I tracked it down - it is "kammatthana." 
Here is the definition from access to insight. 

"Literally, "basis of work" or "place of work". The word refers to 
the "occupation" of a meditating monk: namely, the contemplation of 
certain meditation themes by which the forces of defilement (kilesa), 
craving (tanha), and ignorance (avijja) may be uprooted from the 
mind. In the ordination procedure, every new monk is taught five 
basic kammatthana that form the basis for contemplation of the body: 
hair of the head (kesa), hair of the body (loma), nails (nakha), 
teeth (danta), and skin (taco). By extension, the kammatthana include 
all the forty classical meditation themes. Although every meditator 
may be said to engage in kammatthana, the term is most often used to 
identify the particular Thai forest tradition lineage that was 
founded by Phra Ajaan Mun and Phra Ajaan Sao."

So I see now that it is more related to a formal meditation 
practice and is not relevant for thinking about a direction our 
vipassana should be taking in daily life. There is no direction, as 
there is no director. Or is there? That is the fun to think about, 
but not too often! :)

Can "kammathana" apply to contemplation of the loathsomeness of 
the body? 

Are these "40 classical meditation themes" important to know about 
for someone who does not seek jhanas? (I do seated meditation, but 
with very humble aims - simple mindfulness of the breath and 
contemplation of certain topics such as the brahma-viharas.)


Metta,

Phil
	
33231

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 3:51pm
Subject: Dukkha and the 3 characterisitcs

Howard

Thanks for coming in on this thread, and for the apposite sutta quotes. I
would like to pick up at the comments you make following the sutta
passages.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
However, one can also truthfully say, but derivatively,
conventionally, and abbreviationally, that breath, too, is anicca, dukkha,
and anatta. It is just that one should be very careful and very clear in
one's mind as to exactly what is meant when that is said. The sense in
which anicca and anatta, especially, apply to conventional objects is
their applying to the actual phenomena that underlie them. As the
underlying phenomena arise and cease, the conventional object appears to
change.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is indeed a lot of conventional usage and abbreviated referencing in
the suttas, but not, I think, when talking about the 3 characteristics of
anicca/dukkha/anatta. As far as I know, the 3 characteristics are
invariably given in terms of the five aggregates, the elements, the
sense-bases or some other way of classifying dhammas.

The reason for this, I suspect, is that even to talk in terms of the
phenomena that underlie conventional objects or things in a sense
presupposes the existence of conventional objects or things (i.e., similar
to the reason that the statement 'the self does/does not exist' is not
discussed either).

In terms of our own understanding, if visible-object (to take that as an
example) is conceived of as the seen aspect of different conventional
objects or things, then this would not be the kind of correct intellectual
understanding that would condition the arising of direct awareness, in my
view.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dukkha, however, applies not only derivatively to conventional
objects, but also directly, because dukkha depends on mind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The 3 characteristics are characteristics that *pertain to* dhammas. In
the course of the development of insight, individual dhammas are gradually
known to a higher and higher degree, both as to their particular (unique)
characteristic and as to the 3 characteristics they share in common with
all other conditioned dhammas. This development continues, until, at the
attainment of full enlightenment, these characteristics are fully
penetrated.

So both before and after full enlightenment, dhammas are known as anicca,
as dukkha, and as anatta . 'Dukkha' here is a reflection of the
insubstantiality of the dhamma, and applies whether or not the perceiver
is inclined to grasp, or capable of grasping, the dhamma as being other
than it truly is. Indeed, dhammas and their insubstantiality and other
attributes are more clearly and truly seen by the fully enlightened being
than by the yet-to-be fully enlightened being.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is the following:
__________________________
> ... association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved
is > dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha
----------------------------------------------
I do believe that the "things" that are unloved etc are
conventional objects, including persons. Grief can arise, for example, at
least as strongly with regard to the loss of a fictitious entity believed
to be real as with regard to an actual phenomenon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Since we are discussing dukkha as one of the 3 characteristics of all
conditioned dhammas, the passage you quote here (from the first of the
Four Noble Truths, I believe) may not be of direct relevance. The meaning
of dukkha as the first of the Four Noble Truths is not coextensive with
its meaning as one of the 3 characteristics.

However, it is worth noting that the full statement of the first Noble
Truth concludes with words to the effect: 'In brief, the five aggregates
of clinging are suffering'. The words 'in brief' here are significant. 
They show that what has preceded (i.e., birth, sickness, old age, death,
association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting
what is wanted, etc) is nothing more nor less that the dhammas that
comprise the five aggregates, as mentioned elsewhere throughout the
teachings. Not only grief is dukkha, but joy is too, as is
visible-object. Birth, sickness, old age, death, separation, etc are a
synonyms for existence in samsara.

Jon 

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Victor) -
... 
> =======================
> I agree with you Jon. That is certainly the primary meaning and 
> application throughout. For example there is the following:
> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.82
> 
> 
> 
> Loka Sutta
> 
> 
> 
> The World
> 
...
> And there is also the following:
> ________________________
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya X.60
> 
> 
> 
> Girimananda Sutta
> 
> 
> 
> To Girimananda


	
33232

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 3:55pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Thank you for your notes.
> 
> So is breath/in-&-out breathing inconstant, dukkha, not self?
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the 3
characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that we
conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas.

Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that are
taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you
mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not
exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings.

Jon


	
33233

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 5:38pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6

Hi Nina,

N: "It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that
rúpa does not experience anything."

L: We could also say an object doesn't experience anything; it _is_
experience. Pleasant feeling doesn't experience sound; it is just
pleasant feeling. "Like" doesn't experience pleasant feeling or sound.
It is just "like". These three fit together by association.

Larry
	
33234

From: Suravira <cbclifford@e...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Vitikkama

Andrew,

Thank you to sharing this article.

> In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama 
and 
> pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and thoughts 
> are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, or 
> moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. If 
> the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is

[Suravira]

In the Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment, does Mahathera 
Ledi Sayadaw offer teachings on how to cleanse the anusaya plane?
	
33235

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Mike

Thanks for the comments.

Of course, there is a sense in which all the references to sankhaara can
be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas.

From what I gather, the more normal 3-fold classification of sankhaara as
kaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara occurs in the context
of dependent origination, and refers to deeds carried out through body,
speech and mind or, in ultimate terms, the volition (cetana) that
accompanies such deeds.

In the instance under discussion between Victor and me, however, the
emphasis is on certain manifestations of the attainment of cessation, and
the reference to kaaya-sankhaara is used in a more conventional sense.

Jon

--- "m. nease" <mlnease@z...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
...
> > I hope this helps resolve any apparent disparity in my statement and
> > your sutta quote.
> 
> In my opinion it not only does so, but is also a nice bit of homework,
> showing the potential ambiguities in various translations of
> 'sankhaara'.
> Confusing the different meanings of this word in different contexts is
> potentially disastrous, I think.
> 
> mike


	
33236

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:17pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

In-&-out breathings, fabrications, fabricated, are inconstant, 
dukkha, not self.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > Thank you for your notes.
> > 
> > So is breath/in-&-out breathing inconstant, dukkha, not self?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> 
> In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit 
the 3
> characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects 
that we
> conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas.
> 
> Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' 
that are
> taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics 
you
> mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do 
not
> exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings.
> 
> Jon
	
33237

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:20pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Regarding your last message,
...
> The passage 
> 
> "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of
> great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
> when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
> their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
> pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination.
> The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
> clear knowing & release to their culmination."
> 
> means exactly what it says. ...

Thanks for these observations. However, your comment that the passage
means exactly what it says needs to be qualified, I feel. The dhamma is
truly deep in meaning, and this depth of meaning cannot always be
perceived by taking the words spoken at their face value.

First, I think we could all come up with many instances where the words
used by the Buddha do not carry their ordinary, literal meaning (e.g.,
'the eye is on fire'). Secondly, we often find terms used that are taken
as already known to the listener, and so are not defined or described (a
good example of this is 'mindfulness of breathing' itself which, as far as
I know, is not defined or explained anywhere in the suttas).

Apart from these considerations, there is also the context of the sutta to
be considered, and this includes the occasion on which it was given and
person or group of persons for whose benefit in particular the discourse
was spoken at the time. In the case of the Anapanasati Sutta that will be
one or more of the groups of persons listed at the beginning of the sutta
(see extract below from my earlier post), and the obvious choice here is
those who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing', rather than
anyone else (for example, the discourse has no direct relevance for those
who are already arahants).

Now it seems to me that a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out breathing and
insight attainment given to an audience that is already 'devoted to'
(i.e., skilled in) mindfulness of in-&-out breathing may be serving quite
a different purpose than a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out breathing
being given to a group of complete novices in the skill of samatha with
breath as object and insight. We cannot simply ignore these external
considerations, especially when they are included (for a purpose) in the
sutta itself and, as such, are not really external anyway.

Jon

[From my earlier post:]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
... the description of different levels of attainment of those present,
who included:
[8] Arahants
[9] non-returners
[10] once-returners
[11] stream-enterers
[12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames of
reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path'
[13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will...
compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the]
foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. 
[14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	
33238

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:42pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Hi Jon, Mike, and all,

Let me quote the following:

<quote>
"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily 
fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are 
called fabrications."
<quote>
Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html

<quote>
"Now, lady, what are fabrications?" 

"These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, 
verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." 
</quote>
Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html

And in Cula-vedalla Sutta, it is stated that in-&-out breaths are 
bodily fabrications.

Jon, are fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self?

Are bodily fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self?

Are in-&-out breaths inconstant, dukkha, not self?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Mike
> 
> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> Of course, there is a sense in which all the references to 
sankhaara can
> be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas.
> 
> From what I gather, the more normal 3-fold classification of 
sankhaara as
> kaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara occurs in the 
context
> of dependent origination, and refers to deeds carried out through 
body,
> speech and mind or, in ultimate terms, the volition (cetana) that
> accompanies such deeds.
> 
> In the instance under discussion between Victor and me, however, 
the
> emphasis is on certain manifestations of the attainment of 
cessation, and
> the reference to kaaya-sankhaara is used in a more conventional 
sense.
> 
> Jon
> 
> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@z...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> ...
> > > I hope this helps resolve any apparent disparity in my 
statement and
> > > your sutta quote.
> > 
> > In my opinion it not only does so, but is also a nice bit of 
homework,
> > showing the potential ambiguities in various translations of
> > 'sankhaara'.
> > Confusing the different meanings of this word in different 
contexts is
> > potentially disastrous, I think.
> > 
> > mike
	
33239

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:01pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Dear Christine,
Thank you for all these texts, appreciated,
Nina. 
op 22-05-2004 05:21 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...:

> 
> "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses
> that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning,
	
33240

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:06pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

Given the discourse Anapanasati Sutta, 

do you mean that:

Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is not 
of great fruit, of great benefit.

Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, does 
not bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. 

The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, do not bring 
the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination.

The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, do not 
bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. 

?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > Regarding your last message,
> ...
> > The passage 
> > 
> > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is 
of
> > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing,
> > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to
> > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed &
> > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their 
culmination.
> > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring
> > clear knowing & release to their culmination."
> > 
> > means exactly what it says. ...
> 
> Thanks for these observations. However, your comment that the 
passage
> means exactly what it says needs to be qualified, I feel. The 
dhamma is
> truly deep in meaning, and this depth of meaning cannot always be
> perceived by taking the words spoken at their face value.
> 
> First, I think we could all come up with many instances where the 
words
> used by the Buddha do not carry their ordinary, literal meaning 
(e.g.,
> 'the eye is on fire'). Secondly, we often find terms used that 
are taken
> as already known to the listener, and so are not defined or 
described (a
> good example of this is 'mindfulness of breathing' itself which, 
as far as
> I know, is not defined or explained anywhere in the suttas).
> 
> Apart from these considerations, there is also the context of the 
sutta to
> be considered, and this includes the occasion on which it was 
given and
> person or group of persons for whose benefit in particular the 
discourse
> was spoken at the time. In the case of the Anapanasati Sutta that 
will be
> one or more of the groups of persons listed at the beginning of 
the sutta
> (see extract below from my earlier post), and the obvious choice 
here is
> those who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing', 
rather than
> anyone else (for example, the discourse has no direct relevance 
for those
> who are already arahants).
> 
> Now it seems to me that a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out 
breathing and
> insight attainment given to an audience that is already 'devoted 
to'
> (i.e., skilled in) mindfulness of in-&-out breathing may be 
serving quite
> a different purpose than a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out 
breathing
> being given to a group of complete novices in the skill of samatha 
with
> breath as object and insight. We cannot simply ignore these 
external
> considerations, especially when they are included (for a purpose) 
in the
> sutta itself and, as such, are not really external anyway.
> 
> Jon
> 
> [From my earlier post:]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ... the description of different levels of attainment of those 
present,
> who included:
> [8] Arahants
> [9] non-returners
> [10] once-returners
> [11] stream-enterers
> [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four 
frames of
> reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble 
eightfold path'
> [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will...
> compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the]
> foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. 
> [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out 
breathing'.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
	
33241

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 11:09pm
Subject: Re: Vitikkama

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" <cbclifford@e...> 
wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> Thank you to sharing this article.
> 
> > In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama 
> and 
> > pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and 
thoughts 
> > are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, 
or 
> > moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. 
If 
> > the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is
> 
> [Suravira]
> 
> In the Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment, does Mahathera 
> Ledi Sayadaw offer teachings on how to cleanse the anusaya plane?

Suravira

The Venerable's answer to your question would appear to be:

"Among the three planes of ditthi, sila can destroy the vitikkama 
plane. This means that if one possesses sila-visuddhi, upheavals in 
acts and speech cannot occur. Samadhi can destroy the ditthi in the 
pariyutthana plane. This means that if bhavana manasikara 
(concentration on the objects of meditation) is firmly established, 
upheavals in thought cannot occur. Panna destroys the ditthi in the 
anusaya plane. This means that if insight is obtained into the entire 
body as mere groups of nama and rupa and as anicca, dukkha and anatta 
groups, the latent store of ditthi that may manifest itself in views 
of 'personality' (puggala), 'living being' (satta), 'permanency' 
(nicca), 'pleasure' (sukha), 'self' (atta) disappears. So long as 
this ditthi-anusaya exists, the destruction of the vitikkama plane by 
sila, and of the pariyutthana plane by samadhi, can be no more than 
temporary."

I don't consider the Venerable Sayadaw is suggesting a sequentialist 
approach here i.e. first deal with the vitikkama ditthi by perfecting 
sila, then do the pariyutthana plane by perfecting concentration then 
get rid of anusaya by developing wisdom. Many people look at Dhamma 
in a sequentialist way and I think that is an error. The very last 
sentence I think implies that samadhi does not destroy ignorance. 
Indeed, attachment to a "practice" of samadhi may add to the latent 
store of those wrong views listed above. On the question of whether 
one MUST practice samadhi (attain jhana) to become enlightened, I 
believe the answer is "no". A search of the archives for "dry 
insight" should lead to various references on this. Hope this helps!

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33242

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Howard

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't know any, Jon. I was merely indicating that finding some
commentarial positions that support my own view should not be decisive. I
was merely admitting to the possibility that I might be latching onto
commentaries that I like as support for my position. I'm aware that that
we humans tend to cling to our opinions, and as soon as we come across
"authoritative" support for them, we search no further.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

J: Quite so, and well put ;-)). Perhaps I took your reference to 'each
different commentarial position encountered' a little too literally. 
Perhaps, on your part, you're relishing your release from the constraints
of acadaemia! ;-))

Jon


	
33243

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:50am
Subject: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Victor (and Nina)

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: 
> Hi Nina and all,
...
> Anguttara Nikaya II.25
> Neyyattha Sutta
> A Meaning to be Inferred
> Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> For free distribution only. 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains 
> a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning 
> has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse 
> whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning 
> needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------

[*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation uses
'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which
better represents the original Pali.]

An interesting passage, in the light of some of our recent discussions.

I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a sutta 'whose
meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning has already been
fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know one from the other.

For some reason I've gained the impression that you regard all suttas as
ones 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', and that there's no
room for seeking to infer a meaning other than the obvious and literal
one. ;-))

Also, in the case of those suttas whose meaning has not already been fully
drawn out, how did the Buddha suggest that the meaning remaining to be
inferred be inferred?

As a general observation, it seems to me that our distance in both time
and potential for attainment from those to whom the suttas were originally
spoken is relevant here, so that many suttas that would have fallen within
the 'fully drawn out' category in the time of the Buddha must for us today
be regarded as ones whose meaning needs further drawing out (and the best
source for this, as I see it, is the Abhidhamma and commentaries).

Jon



33244

From: hasituppada <hasituppada@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 2:24am
Subject: Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Dear Jon ,

I also contribute to the inference that all Sutta have to be 
understood as they are without trying to stretch the meaning 
further. All Suttas explain the basic principles of the Buddha's 
teachings as exposed in the Dhammachakka pavattana Sutta. There was 
no necessity for the Buddha to teach more than the principles to set 
the disciple to sit to meditate and experience for himself the 
anicca, dukkha and anatma. 

In Vipassana there is the process of investigation of dhamma 
(dhamma vicaya) for which the explanations given in the discourses 
in conventional terms by the Buddha becomes more than sufficient to 
understand the phenomena as they appear in meditative state.

Some times merely reading through a Sutta before a meditation 
session, may give a clue to nature of things as they are, the 
understanding or experiencing of which had been "blocked" in the 
course of the meditation. In that sense I tend to think that Suttas 
and Meditation go hand in hand. That is just my opinion.

With metta,

Hasituppada 








___________________________________________________________________

For some reason I've gained the impression that you regard all 
suttas as ones 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', and 
that there's no room for seeking to infer a meaning other than the 
obvious and literal one. ;-))

Jon
	

	
	


33245

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 9:15am
Subject: Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Jon: "I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a 
sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning 
has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know 
one from the other."

Hi Jon and all,

I would like to know this also. I'm wondering if there is any 
commentarial comment. It is a question of considerable investigation 
in the madhyamika camp. Clearly the Buddha seems to be saying there 
are these two kinds of sutta. 

Larry
-----------------

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor (and Nina)
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: 
> > Hi Nina and all,
> ...
> > Anguttara Nikaya II.25
> > Neyyattha Sutta
> > A Meaning to be Inferred
> > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> > For free distribution only. 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who 
explains 
> > a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose 
meaning 
> > has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse 
> > whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose 
meaning 
> > needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>
Jon: > [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS 
translation uses
> 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which
> better represents the original Pali.]
> 
>
	
33246

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 10:07am
Subject: Re: Vitikkama

Hi Andrew,

For further detail on eradication of anusaya see Vism. XXII,73, 
(here "knowledge" refers to path knowledge, i.e., stream entry, once 
returner, non-returner, arahant):

"73. In the case of the 'inherent tendencies', the inherent 
tendencies to [false] view and to uncertainty are eliminated by the 
first knowledge. The inherent tendencies to greed for sense desires 
and to resentment are eliminated by the third knowledge. The inherent 
tendencies to conceit (pride), to greed for becoming, and to 
ignorance are eliminated by the fourth knowledge."

L: Also it seems you hold a view similar to Gethin's in "The Buddhist 
Path to Awakening", a book about the 37 requisites for awakening:

p.349: "In all this, I arrive, via a completely different route, at 
conclusions that have something in common with the findings of J. 
Bronkhorst ("The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India") and 
T. Vetter ("The Ideas and Meditative Practices of Early Buddhism"). 
Both these scholars argue that the 'jhanas' represent mainstream 
early Buddhist meditation; unlike Vetter, who argues that the 'jhana' 
meditation path early on gave way to the meditation based 
on 'discriminating insight', I maintain that the 'jhanas' continue to 
be of paramount importance for the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. 
What I suggest is that a book such as King's relies far too heavily 
on Buddhaghosa's "Visuddhimagga" systematization of the path under 
the headings of 'conduct', 'consciousness' and 'understanding'. This 
separating out of the three categories is certainly a useful device 
for a presentation of the Buddhist path, but the structure of 
the "Visuddhimagga" can make it appear that much of the account of 
the development of 'samatha' given under the heading 'pacification of 
consciousness' (citta-visuddhi) has rather little bearing on the 
remaining five 'purifications', which are therefore to be understood 
more or less exclusively in terms of wisdom and insight. The result 
of following Buddhaghosa too closely can be a rather distorted and 
misleading account of Theravadin meditation theory. My point here is 
not that Buddhaghosa gets it wrong, but that in failing to have an 
adequate grasp of the theory of meditation presented in the Nikayas 
and Abhidhamma, modern scholars misunderstood Buddhaghosa. The 
treatment of the seven sets in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, on the 
other hand, seems to make clear and emphasize the ancient conception 
of the path as the yoking together of calm and insight (cf. 
the "Anapanasati-sutta"). The mind is stilled and brought to a state 
of happiness and balance; awakening arises directly in this soil. 
Thus in emphasizing the interdependence and reciprocity of the 
various elements that contribute to the path, the teaching of the 
seven sets presents us with a rather more integrated view of the path 
to awakening."

L: "Seven sets" refers to the requisites for awakening (bodhipakkhiya-
dhamma): 4 foundations of mindfulness, 4 right efforts, 4 roads to 
power, 5 spiritual faculties, 5 spiritual powers, 7 factors of 
enlightenment, the Noble Eightfold Path. 

Larry

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <athel60@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" 
<cbclifford@e...> 
> wrote:
> > Andrew,
> > 
> > Thank you to sharing this article.
> > 
> > > In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama 
> > and 
> > > pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and 
> thoughts 
> > > are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, 
> or 
> > > moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. 
> If 
> > > the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is
> > 
> > [Suravira]
> > 
> > In the Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment, does Mahathera 
> > Ledi Sayadaw offer teachings on how to cleanse the anusaya plane?
> 
> Suravira
> 
> The Venerable's answer to your question would appear to be:
> 
> "Among the three planes of ditthi, sila can destroy the vitikkama 
> plane. This means that if one possesses sila-visuddhi, upheavals in 
> acts and speech cannot occur. Samadhi can destroy the ditthi in the 
> pariyutthana plane. This means that if bhavana manasikara 
> (concentration on the objects of meditation) is firmly established, 
> upheavals in thought cannot occur. Panna destroys the ditthi in the 
> anusaya plane. This means that if insight is obtained into the 
entire 
> body as mere groups of nama and rupa and as anicca, dukkha and 
anatta 
> groups, the latent store of ditthi that may manifest itself in 
views 
> of 'personality' (puggala), 'living being' (satta), 'permanency' 
> (nicca), 'pleasure' (sukha), 'self' (atta) disappears. So long as 
> this ditthi-anusaya exists, the destruction of the vitikkama plane 
by 
> sila, and of the pariyutthana plane by samadhi, can be no more than 
> temporary."
> 
> I don't consider the Venerable Sayadaw is suggesting a 
sequentialist 
> approach here i.e. first deal with the vitikkama ditthi by 
perfecting 
> sila, then do the pariyutthana plane by perfecting concentration 
then 
> get rid of anusaya by developing wisdom. Many people look at 
Dhamma 
> in a sequentialist way and I think that is an error. The very last 
> sentence I think implies that samadhi does not destroy ignorance. 
> Indeed, attachment to a "practice" of samadhi may add to the latent 
> store of those wrong views listed above. On the question of 
whether 
> one MUST practice samadhi (attain jhana) to become enlightened, I 
> believe the answer is "no". A search of the archives for "dry 
> insight" should lead to various references on this. Hope this 
helps!
> 
> Best wishes
> Andrew
	
33247

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:31pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, feeling

Hi Larry,
op 23-05-2004 02:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:

> N: "It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that
> rúpa does not experience anything."
> 
> L: We could also say an object doesn't experience anything; it _is_
> experience. 
N: Object can be nama as well as rupa. So I would not say that an object
does not experience anything. It is experienced or cognized or felt by citta
and cetasika. But what you say, it _is_
experience can be interpreted in two ways: it is an experiencer and it is
that which is experienced. The latter is probably what you mean.
L: Pleasant feeling doesn't experience sound; it is just
> pleasant feeling.
N: When it accompanies citta that is attached to sound it feels pleasant on
account of the sound, it has sound as object, in a way it experiences sound.
Cetasikas share the same object as the citta they accompany, they arise at
the same physical base, they fall away together with the citta.
L: "Like" doesn't experience pleasant feeling or sound.
> It is just "like". These three fit together by association.
N: It likes something, it must have an object it is not like a dead log. It
is nama, not rupa. It can be attached to the pleasant feeling that has just
fallen away. It can be attached to the sound. Attached to anything in the
world.
You often come back to feeling, and wonder whether it can experience an
object. By study of the Tipitaka and Co., by intellectual understanding and
by inference we know that it is nama-khandha, not rupa-khandha. You notice
feeling that has just fallen away, and while noticing it, you cannot notice
at the same time the object feeling had or felt about when it arose in a
previous process. You can only notice one thing at a time. Thus, it *seems*
that there is just feeling without having an object. Feeling is so
predominant and we take it for self, we do not realize it as pure nama,
different from rupa. As I said before, it seems that there is a mass of
feeling and rupa together and we call it emotion. When there are conditions
for the arising of sati of the level of satipatthana, it can be aware of
just the characteristic of feeling as nama, and then no words are needed, no
thinking about it, no doubt about it whether feeling experiences something
or not. 
Nina
	
33248

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:31pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Dear Philip,
op 22-05-2004 02:07 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> N: >> They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise
> with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. ...
PH:What is that term that is something like a "Dhamma
> workground?" How do we know what our "Dhamma workground" is?
N: Shall we say task? What is our first task? Understanding whatever
appears, kusala, akusala, any kind of reality. Through mindfulness and
understanding the wrong view of self can be lessened and eventually be
eradicated. Wrong view has to go first, before the other defilements.
Ph : Can "kammathana" apply to contemplation of the loathsomeness of
the body?
N: See what Mike said about this: < The present
moment is the only dhamma work ground, and only insight, understanding,
malleability and so on to do the work--no you, I, us or them at all, except
as distracting delusions. > In the Co to the satipatthana sutta the word
kammathana (often translated as meditation subject) stands for satipatthana.
Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of
vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the meditation
subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three characteristics
of realities. We should not attach too much importance to a term but look at
the context. 
> N : >The teaching of the latent tendencies helps
>> us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising
> again
>> and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and
> uncontrollable.>
> 
> Ph: I am feeling very loose and relaxed because of this new sense
> of people behaving in an unforseeable and uncontrollable way.
N: And with regard to ourselves, the way we can suddenly behave. It helps us
to be patient with regard to ourselves as well as with regard to others.
> (snip)

> Ph: I have a question about something that I have seen arising in
> my behaviour. I guess it started about two years ago - making a
> conscious efort not to glance at women...and I started to make a consious
effort not to glance.
> Is that hiri, perhaps?
Each kusala citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa. Thus it all depends on
the citta at that moment.
This example is relevant, because it brings us to: guarding the sense-doors.
It is panna that does the work. No need to close one's eyes or force oneself
not to look. Of course it is different for a monk: he should look ahead only
for the length of a plough.
Seeing only sees what is visible. Afterwards thinking pays attention to the
image or the details, often with akusala citta. Seeing and thinking are
different cittas having different functions. What is real, what is dhamma?
Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma, lobha is
dhamma. Panna and sati can face lobha. It has a characteristic and can be
object of awareness. Thinking can fancy anything, and that is imagination, a
concept and not real in the ultimate sense. The arahat has perfect guarding
or control of the senses. The sotapanna does not take any reality for self,
but he still has akusala, although no more transgression of the five
precepts and no more akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. The
beginner: even beginning to be aware is beneficial, one attaches less
importance to imaginations and the contents of one's thinking and imagining.
Thinking is only conditioned. Better be aware of what appears now then
worrying so long about it, or thinking of tricks like closing one's eyes.
Nina.
	
33249

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:31pm
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, 1

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1

Chapter 2. 

The Divine Messengers.

Lodewijk and I discussed the sutta of ³The Divine Messengers² when we were
having dinner at the riverside. We spoke about the problems that arise on
account of my aged father, and Lodewijk said that he was impressed by this
sutta which we can immediately apply in our life with him.
In the ³Divine Messengers (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch IV, § 35)
[1] we read that the Buddha spoke to the monks about three divine
messengers: old age, sickness and death. A person who has immoral conduct in
deeds, words and thoughts is reborn in hell. The warders take him and bring
him before Yama the Lord (of Death). We read that they said:

³This man, O majesty, had no respect for father and mother, nor for recluses
and priests, nor did he honour the elders of the family. May your majesty
inflict due punishment on him.²
Then, monks, King Yama questions that man, examines and addresses him
concerning the first divine messemger:
³Did you not see, my good man, the first messenger appearing among men?²
And he replies:²No, Lord, I did not see him.²
Then King Yama says to him: ²But, my good man, did you not see among people
a woman or a man, aged eighty, ninety or a hundred years, frail, bent like a
roof gable, crooked, leaning on a stick, shakily going along, ailing, his
youth and vigour gone, with broken teeth, with grey and scanty hair or none,
wrinkled, with blotched limbs?²
And the man replies, ³I have seen it, Lord.²
Then King Yama says to him: ³My good man, did it never occur to you who are
intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to old age and cannot escape
it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind¹?²
³No Lord. I could not do it, I was negligent.²

We then read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his
evil action. King Yama then questioned him about the second divine
messenger:

³Did you not see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing among
men?²
³No, Lord, I did not see him.²
³But, my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who was
sick and in pain, seriously ill, lying in his own filth, who had to be
lifted up by some, and put to bed by others?²
³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.²
³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old
enough, ŒI too am subject to sickness and cannot escape it. Let me now do
noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?²
³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.²

We read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil
action. 
****
Footnote:
1. I used the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158, B.P.S. Kandy
****
Nina.
	
33250

From: m. nease <mlnease@z...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 1:19pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Jonothan Abbott" <jonoabb@y...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

> In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the 3
> characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that we
> conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas.
>
> Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that are
> taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you
> mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not
> exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings.

I know we've discussed this difference a lot but I'm not sure I've seen it
so well and succinctly articulated before. I hope you'll consider placing
it in the 'useful posts' as a reminder to those capable of understanding it.

mike
	
33251

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 2:35pm
Subject: Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Jon and all

Regarding what you said:

"I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a 
sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose 
meaning has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we 
can know one from the other." 

Let me give an example of what the Buddha said whose meaning needed 
to be inferred.

Majjhima Nikaya 18
Madhupindika Sutta
The Ball of Honey
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html

"If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & 
categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there 
to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of 
the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the 
obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions 
of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions 
of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of 
arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & 
false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease 
without remainder." 

Majjhima Nikaya 18
Madhupindika Sutta
The Ball of Honey
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html

Please also check how Ven. Maha Kaccana replied to the monks who 
asked him to analyze the meaning of what the Buddha said and how he 
analyze it.


Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor (and Nina)
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: 
> > Hi Nina and all,
> ...
> > Anguttara Nikaya II.25
> > Neyyattha Sutta
> > A Meaning to be Inferred
> > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> > For free distribution only. 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who 
explains 
> > a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose 
meaning 
> > has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a 
discourse 
> > whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose 
meaning 
> > needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation 
uses
> 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure 
which
> better represents the original Pali.]
> 
> An interesting passage, in the light of some of our recent 
discussions.
> 
> I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a 
sutta 'whose
> meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning has 
already been
> fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know one from the 
other.
> 
> For some reason I've gained the impression that you regard all 
suttas as
> ones 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', and that 
there's no
> room for seeking to infer a meaning other than the obvious and 
literal
> one. ;-))
> 
> Also, in the case of those suttas whose meaning has not already 
been fully
> drawn out, how did the Buddha suggest that the meaning remaining 
to be
> inferred be inferred?
> 
> As a general observation, it seems to me that our distance in both 
time
> and potential for attainment from those to whom the suttas were 
originally
> spoken is relevant here, so that many suttas that would have 
fallen within
> the 'fully drawn out' category in the time of the Buddha must for 
us today
> be regarded as ones whose meaning needs further drawing out (and 
the best
> source for this, as I see it, is the Abhidhamma and commentaries).
> 
> Jon
	
33252

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 2:38pm
Subject: Sleep

Hello All,

I am reading the Vimuttimagga `The Path of Freedom' by the Arahant 
Upatissa.
In chapter the fourth `On Distinguishing Concentration ` under 
Requisites of Concentration, he says "What are the requisites of 
concentration? There are seven, namely: virtue, contentment, 
shielding of the faculties, moderation in drink and food, not 
sleeping in the first, middle and last watches of the night, the 
being intent on wisdom and a calm and quiet dwelling-place."

My question is: How many watches of the night are there? When, 
then, is one supposed to sleep?

Metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33253

From: Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 1:19pm
Subject: Right Mindfulness

Hello everyone,

I have a bit of a "beginner" question:

I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about
developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do*
anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it
were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching
determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was
common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness?
I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula citta
are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It
all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the
right answer ;).

Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated..


Regards,
Hans
	
33254

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

Hi Hans and all,

If the Buddha was not teaching determinism, then was he also not 
teaching what is making the decision to develop awareness?

A discourse to share with you and all:

Anguttara Nikaya II.19
Kusala Sutta
Skillful
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what 
is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is 
unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' 
But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is 
unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of 
what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' 
"Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is 
skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I 
would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is 
possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is 
skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to 
harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' 
But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to 
benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" 


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Van Slooten" 
<hans@h...> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a bit of a "beginner" question:
> 
> I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused 
about
> developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't 
really *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, 
as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not 
teaching
> determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism 
that was
> common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop 
awareness?
> I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for 
kusula citta
> are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them 
arise.. It
> all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know 
isn't the
> right answer ;).
> 
> Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated..
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Hans
	
33255

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 11:42am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sleep

Hi Christine. 

The are 3 watches of night. This passage is only indicating one who happens 
to be concentrating throughout the night...an intense session of meditation, 
if you will. The passage is not meant to indicate that one should do this 
every night or that one should not sleep. 

TG


In a message dated 5/23/2004 3:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:
My question is: How many watches of the night are there? When, 
then, is one supposed to sleep?

Metta and peace,
Christine


	
33256

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 3:47pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Hello Nina, and all

> Ph : Can "kammathana" apply to contemplation of the loathsomeness 
of
> the body?
> N: (snip) In the Co to the satipatthana sutta the word
> kammathana (often translated as meditation subject) stands for 
satipatthana.
> Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana 
of
> vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the 
meditation
> subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three 
characteristics
> of realities. We should not attach too much importance to a term 
but look at the context. 

Ph: Not intending to be contrary, but since posting my question, I 
have read the chapter of Buddhism in Daily Life that deals with the 
development of calm, and the topic of kamatthana and the meditation 
subjects came up. (This is the second time I have found an answer to 
a question in BDL the day after posting it here. I should be reading 
faster or posting slower!) 

In the book there is an appreciation of contemplation of foulness 
of the body. I remember that you brought it up a few weeks ago and if 
I recall correctly you mentionned this contemplation in the context 
of a discussion with Lodewijk. So, even if we don't place an emphasis 
on formal, seated meditation, these meditation subjects can become 
contemplation subjects that arise during daily life? I wonder how you 
do it during a discussion. Does the contemplation come through 
discussion, or do you sit silently for a moment, contemplate foulness 
of the body, and then resume discussing! I'm sorry if that sounds 
facetious - not intended that way. :) 

I contemplated the loathsomeness of my body this morning. Just to 
see what it would be like. I remembered the sutta (the four frames of 
mindfulness?) in which one goes through the parts of the body as 
though it were a sack of beans and corn, and for some reason saw my 
body on a table, taken apart and laid out, with solid matter and 
liquids and what not. So there wasn't any distaste really but just an 
objective analysis. And then I wondered what this meant in terms of 
my understanding.

Now I am sitting here healthy, I thought - but that will not last. 
The body is unreliable and is destined to cause me chronic physical 
discomfort - at the very least - severe inconvenience, incapability, 
incontinence,incoherence, incompetence - all kinds of 
unfortunate "inco"s. And perhaps intense pain, physical agony. All my 
dreams and aspirations will fall away as my body falls apart. I will 
like on my death bed, and taking the next breath or not taking the 
next breath will be all that remains in this lifetime. 

Then I began to sense that there was something other than the body, 
something that was independent of the body, and that would live on. 
Well, that's not true in the sense of the soul rising from the body 
the way it does in cartoons. We know that doesn't happen. Also, we 
know that nama cannot rise without being supported by rupa, so it is 
not right understanding to think of nama being independent of the 
body (rupa), is it? But life does go on in a sense, in the form of a 
single rebirth (patisandhi) citta? How can contemplation of the body 
help us to better understand what goes on past death and what 
doesn't, I wondered. 

In any case, for the time being, I took today's contemplation as a 
reminder to be grateful for good health while I have it, while being 
aware that I won't have it for long and my body will revolt and then 
fall to pieces someday. I will press on gently with dana, sila and 
bhavana while I can in this lifetime, because in the enxt lifetime I 
will probably not have the wonderful opportunity I have now. 

> > Ph: I have a question about something that I have seen arising 
in
> > my behaviour. I guess it started about two years ago - making a
> > conscious efort not to glance at women...and I started to make a 
consious
> effort not to glance.
> > Is that hiri, perhaps?
> Each kusala citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa. Thus it all 
depends on
> the citta at that moment.

Ph: Ok. I see I was still taking hiri to be something like my 
conventional understanding of moral shame, which it isn't.

N: > This example is relevant, because it brings us to: guarding the 
sense-doors.
> It is panna that does the work. No need to close one's eyes or 
force oneself
> not to look. Of course it is different for a monk: he should look 
ahead only
> for the length of a plough.

Ph: I knew after I posted the above that I would sound like I was 
trying to behave like a monk. Not that - it's not so much a concern 
that seeing a woman would cause me lust - it's a concern that my 
glancing at her would make her feel uncomfortable, the way people 
glancing at me makes me feel uncomfortable. Concern for the woman's 
feelings rather than concern about feeding my lust. There are times 
when I struggle with that, certainly, but this is a different thing, 
not really about guarding my sense-doors but some kind of 
consideration for others. An aspect of metta, perhaps.

The guarding of sense doors arises when I am teaching a student in 
my class who attracts me (don't worry - I teach adults!) Then there 
is a concern about my lust, and I deal with it in other wiser ways 
than averting my eyes, which would be a bad thing to do for a 
teacher! 


N: > Seeing only sees what is visible. Afterwards thinking pays 
attention to the
> image or the details, often with akusala citta. Seeing and thinking 
are
> different cittas having different functions. What is real, what is 
dhamma?
> Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma, 
lobha is
> dhamma. Panna and sati can face lobha. It has a characteristic and 
can be
> object of awareness. Thinking can fancy anything, and that is 
imagination, a
> concept and not real in the ultimate sense. 

Ph: This is more like what I am learning to do when a student is 
causing me lustful feelings. I used to contemplate her as a female 
relative, or remember what the body comes down too - all those fluids 
and organ tissue - but right understanding of what is going on in the 
moment is better, I think. Right understanding of rupa and nama. And 
remembering that my complete presence is a kind of dana.


Thanks as always for your feedback, Nina. Only if and when you 
have lots of spare time, please! :) 

Metta,
Phil
	
33257

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

Hello Hans, and all

I'm a beginner too, Hans, so very glad to have you here.

H: > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit 
confused about
> developing awareness

Ph: I've felt confusion about the way sati (which is I assume 
what you mean by awareness) is taught by Nina and K Sujin and members 
at DSG who practice in the same way. Perhaps, like me, you have read 
other Theravadin teachers who mention maintaining sati as constantly 
as possible (Acharn Chah, for example.) It is confusing. Nina has 
written that there are different degrees of sati, so I assume that 
the one that is stressed in other ways of practicing is a different 
degree. The awareness that Nina teaches about is direct knowledge of 
paramattha dhammas, which can only arise rarely, and perhaps for 
beginners like ourselves cannot yet arise. In my opinion - only my 
opinion - there are less rarefied forms of sati/awareness that we can 
and should press ahead with at the level of understanding - 
intellectual only, at this point - that we are capable of.

H: > Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, 
as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not 
teaching
> determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism 
that was
> common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop 
awareness?

Ph: I think when we study and reflect on and discuss the Buddha's 
teaching, and meditate if that is our way, we are gradually 
developing right understanding, as long as it is in the company of 
dhamma friends with right understanding. Again, my opinion, but as 
I've said elsewhere, I have faith that this process with these 
conditions invariably leads one towards right understanding. That is 
the power, if you will, of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. 
And it is this right understanding that arises and brings about 
awareness, I guess. It may be self that starts us out on this 
process, but self vanishes from the process gradually, and it is 
right understanding (picture a comic book hero iwth R U on his cape?) 
that arises to lead us on. But I am only beginning to understand this 
too so I am looking forward to hearing what our friends here will 
have to say! :) 

Metta,
Phil
	
33258

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 4:30pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor,

I don't understand. Could you give me a commentary ;-)

Larry
-----------------------
"If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories
of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish,
welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions
of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the
obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of
passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of
taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes,
accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these
evil, unskillful things cease without remainder."
	
33259

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 5:31pm
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

Hi Hans,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Van Slooten" 
<hans@h...> wrote:
> I have a bit of a "beginner" question:
> 
> I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused 
about
> developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't 
really *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, 
as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not 
teaching
> determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism 
that was
> common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop 
awareness?
> I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for 
kusula citta
> are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them 
arise.. It
> all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't 
the
> right answer ;).
> 
> Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated..

Welcome!

I understand your confusion on this point.

It is clear from the Sutta reference given by Victor (and dozens of 
other Suttas) that the Buddha encouraged / pushed monks to wholesome 
thinking / actions.

Here is another relevant extract from the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126):

If one follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made a 
wish [for results], one is incapable of obtaining results. If one 
follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made no 
wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither 
having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is incapable of 
obtaining results. [But] if one follows the holy life appropriately, 
even when having made a wish, one is capable of obtaining results. If 
one follows the holy life appropriately, even when having made no 
wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither 
having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is capable of 
obtaining results.

In other words, results flow naturally from proper practice, 
irrespective of any wish for results.

If your practice is wrapped up in an "I"; such as "I want to 
achieve..." then you will not succeed. When you contemplate on the 
dhamma, wholesome thoughts arise, not because there was a self that 
wanted them to arise; the wholesome thoughts arose because conditions 
were suitable for them to arise.

A wise old Thai monk once told me, "Look upon meditation [or whatever 
practice] as a duty, a responsibility. Results will come when 
conditions are correct."

You asked, "how the conditions for kusula citta are made to arise if 
we are unable to do anything to make them arise" The answer is: 
through proper practice, not eminating from a self-view, kusala citta 
will arise naturally.

Here is a simple example. You do some charity (dana). If the 
motivation behind the charity is a desire to look good or to "build 
up good kamma", then this is an action eminating from a self-view 
(not good). However, if the charity is done because of a feeling of 
generosity, then this is kusala. Of course, it is not as black and 
white as this; in reality there will be a mixture of both kusala and 
akusala motivations. Since we all have a deep-rooted tendency to self-
view, any actions that do not spring from self-view are "flowing 
against the stream". Anything that flows against the stream takes a 
lot of volition to sustain it. Lots of volition means very strong 
kamma.

In 1927, Werner Heisenberg wrote, "The 'path' comes into existence 
only when we observe it." Heisenberg was one of the founders of 
modern physics and he was referring to the path of atomic particles 
such as electrons. Heisenberg was making the point that the classical 
view of an "objective observer" was wrong. We can say that the 'path 
of our life' does not exist until it is observed. The concepts 
of "fatalism" or "determinism" are rooted in the self-view that there 
is an objective observer. If our "subjective observer" perspective 
makes it impossible for us to determine the future, how can we say 
that the future is predetermined?

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33260

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 7:07pm
Subject: Paticcasamuppada using Patthana (Simplified but still long)

Hi All,

The following was taken from Abhidhamma lecture notes prepared by U 
Silananda. It has been simplified to exclude:
- rupavacara cittas and arupavacara cittas 
- non-human planes of existence

---

1. Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102-103]

Ignorance = moha concomitant with 12 akusala cittas

Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas

Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala 
cittas

Ignorance conditions formations of merit through object condition and 
decisive support condition

Ignorance conditions formations of demerit through:
- Object condition
- Arammanadhipati (variety of predominance condition)
- Arammanupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition)
- Decisive support condition
- Proximity condition
- Contiguity condition
- Anantarupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition)
- Repetition condition
- Absence condition
- Disappearance condition
- Root condition
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

---

2. Conditioned by formations, consciousness arises [see Vism XVII 177-
180]

Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas

Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala 
cittas

Consciousness = 23 vipaka cittas (7 akusala vipaka + 8 kusala vipaka 
+ 8 mahavipaka)

At the time of rebirth, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 
mahavipaka cittas (i.e. as bhavanga) or kusala vipaka investigating 
citta with indifferent feeling (i.e. bhavanga for disabled humans) 
through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support 
condition.

During existence, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 rootless 
kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural 
decisive support condition.

During existence, cetana in 12 akusala cittas conditions 7 rootless 
kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural 
decisive support condition.

---

3. Conditioned by consciousness, nama, rupa and namarupa arise [see 
Vism XVII 201]

Consciousness = consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas + 
consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas + "all 
other consciousness"

Nama = 52 cetasikas

Rupa = 4 primary elements plus depending ones (i.e. all matter)

At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness 
concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions cetasikas concomitant 
with 23 vipaka cittas through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Nutriment condition
- Faculty condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka 
cittas conditions rupa through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa)
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Nutriment condition
- Faculty condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness 
concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas conditions kamma-produced 
rupa through decisive support condition.

At the time of rebirth and during existence, other consciousness 
conditions namarupa through as appropriate (Vism XVII 201 
states, "but since the whole contents of the Patthana must be cited 
in order to show how it acts in detail, we do not undertake that.")

---

4. Conditioned by nama, rupa and namarupa, the sixth base and sixfold 
base arise [see Vism XVII 209 - 217]

Nama = 52 cetasikas

Rupa = 4 primaries, 6 base matters, jivita and ahara

Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base

At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with 
heart-base condition the mind-base through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with 4 
primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through:
- Conascence condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas condition 
the vipaka heartbase through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas 
condition the non-vipaka heartbase through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, cetasikas concomitant with sense vipaka cittas 
(eye, ear, etc) condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through:
- Postnascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas 
condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through:
- Postnascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At time of rebirth, the heart-base conditions the mind-base through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At time of rebirth and during existence, the 4 primaries condition 
the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through:
- Conascence condition
- Support condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At time of rebirth and during existence, jivita conditions the 5 
sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through:
- Faculty condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, ahara conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) 
through:
- Nutriment condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition mind-
base associated with eye-consciousness, etc. through:
- Support condition
- Prenascence condition
- Faculty condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

During existence, the heart base conditions other mind-base through:
- Support condition
- Prenascence condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At time of rebirth, the 52 cetasikas and heartp-base (namarupa) 
conditions the mindbase through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Association condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

---

5. Conditioned by sixth base and sixfold base, contact arises [See 
Vism XVII 227]

Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base; or 
visible-data base, sound base, odour-, flavour-, tangible-data base, 
dhamma base

Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-
contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-
contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., 
mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala 
vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka)

The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts 
(eye-contact, etc.) through:
- Support condition
- Prenascence condition
- Faculty condition
- Disassociation condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

Vipaka mind-base conditions vipaka mind contact through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Nutriment condition
- Faculty condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

Visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions eye-contact (ear-
contact, etc.) through:
- Object condition
- Prenascence condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

At the present moment, visible-data base (sound base, etc.) 
conditions mind contact through:
- Object condition
- Prenascence condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

Dhamma base conditions mind contact in the past and future through 
object condition only.

---

6. Conditioned by contact, feeling arises. [See Vism XVII 231 - 232]

Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-
contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-
contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., 
mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala 
vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka)

Feeling = feeling born of eye contact, etc.; vedana concomitant with 
the 23 vipaka cittas (same set of cittas for which phassa is 
concomitant)

Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana dependent on eye-
base (ear-base, etc.) through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Nutriment condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with 
receiving, investigating and registration cittas through natural 
decisive support condition.

Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with registration cittas 
through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Nutriment condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with patisandhi, bhavanga 
and cuti cittas through:
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Result condition
- Nutriment condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

Mind contact concomitant with mind door conditions vendana 
concomitant with registration cittas through natural decisive support 
condition.

---

7. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. [See Vism XVII 237-238]

Feeling = vipaka sukha vedana or vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha 
vedana, or non-vipaka vedana

Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, 
flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data)

All types of feeling (vipaka sukha vedana, vipaka sukha, dukkha and 
upekkha vedana, non-vipaka vedana) condition craving through natural 
decisive support condition.

---

8. Conditioned by craving, clinging arises. [See Vism XVII 248]

Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, 
flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data)

Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and-
ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi)

Craving conditions the arising of sense-desire clinging through 
natural decisive support condition.

Craving conditions the arising of false-view clinging, rite-and-
ritual clinging and self-clinging through:
- Root condition
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Decisive support condition (without conascence condition)
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

---

9. Conditioned by clinging, becoming arises. [See Vism XVII 269]

Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and-
ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi)

Becoming (bhava) = kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process 
(upapatti-bhava)

Kamma process (kamma-bhava) = cetana and lobha, etc. concomitant with 
it

Rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) = vipaka aggregates and kammaja-rupa

Clinging conditions the arising of becoming through decisive support 
condition.

---

10. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises.

Becoming = kamma process (kamma-bhava) only, not rebirth process 
(upapatti-bhava)

---

11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, 
grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270]

Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through 
kamma and decisive support condition.

Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, 
pain, grief and despair through decisive support condition.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33261

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 7:44pm
Subject: Importance of Natural Decisive Support Condition

Hi All,

For some time, I have been of the opinion that Natural Decisive 
Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) was "the most important" 
condition in the Patthana. I felt that this condition played a 
crucial role in our lives.

I was disturbed that this condition ended up as "Part C under 
Condition 9" in the list of conditions in the Patthana. I was 
concerned that was overemphasizing the importance of this condition.

Having just completed the analysis of paticca-samuppada by way of 
patthana conditions, I was thrilled to see that pakatupanissaya 
showed up in the strategic links. In the diagram below, "XXX" 
indicates a link where pakatupanissaya is present and "|" indicates a 
link where pakatupanissaya is absent.

Ignorance
|
Formations
XXX
Consciousness
XXX
Namarupa
|
Sixfold base
|
Contact
XXX
Feeling
XXX
Craving
XXX
Clinging
|
Becoming
|
Birth
|
Aging, death, etc.


Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33262

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 8:15pm
Subject: I have a wonderful wife

Hi All,

This weekend, our family went to the beach. As my wife and I walked 
along the shore, a red ant crawled onto my wife's leg and bit her. 
Instinctively, she brushed the offending ant away. She stopped 
walking and said with concern, "We have to save the ant. It might 
drown." It took me less than a minute to find the ant in the sand, 
get it to crawl onto a piece of paper and then deposit it where the 
waves would not reach it.

I spent the next few minutes thinking about her completely natural 
reaction (I have witnessed similar scenes in the past). It is 
wonderful to have a kalayana-mitta.

Theory is good. Practice is better.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33263

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 9:53pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Larry,

Please refer to

Majjhima Nikaya 18
Madhupindika Sutta
The Ball of Honey
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html

in which Ven. Maha Kaccana was "analyzing the unanalyzed detailed 
meaning of this brief statement." 


Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> I don't understand. Could you give me a commentary ;-)
> 
> Larry
> -----------------------
> "If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & 
categories
> of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish,
> welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the 
obsessions
> of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, 
the
> obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the 
obsessions of
> passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the 
end of
> taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes,
> accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where 
these
> evil, unskillful things cease without remainder."
	
33264

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 10:26pm
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

Hi Rob M and all,
[snip]
> 
> Here is another relevant extract from the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126):
> 
> If one follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having 
made a 
> wish [for results], one is incapable of obtaining results. If one 
> follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made no 
> wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither 
> having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is incapable of 
> obtaining results. [But] if one follows the holy life 
appropriately, 
> even when having made a wish, one is capable of obtaining results. 
If 
> one follows the holy life appropriately, even when having made no 
> wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither 
> having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is capable of 
> obtaining results.
> 
> In other words, results flow naturally from proper practice, 
> irrespective of any wish for results.
> 
> If your practice is wrapped up in an "I"; such as "I want to 
> achieve..." then you will not succeed. 


Why assume an "I" in the first place?

Besides, having the desire "I want to achieve..." is necessary for 
one to succeed in any endeavor. Without the desire to achieve a 
goal, success in achieving that goal would be impossible.

Regarding desire, please also check
Samyutta Nikaya LI.15
Brahmana Sutta
To Unnabha the Brahman
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn51-020.html


> Rob M :-)

Metta,
Victor
	
33265

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun May 23, 2004 10:55pm
Subject: Re: Vitikkama

Hi Larry

Thanks for the reference which I will consider carefully. Actually, 
I am not so well-read and learned on the aspects of meditation to 
merit being considered anything near an authority. As they say, a 
little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing! So don't bet your 
life on any opinion I hold. :-)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <LBIDD@w...> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
> 
[snip]> L: Also it seems you hold a view similar to Gethin's in "The 
Buddhist 
> Path to Awakening", a book about the 37 requisites for awakening:
> 
> p.349: "In all this, I arrive, via a completely different route, at 
> conclusions that have something in common with the findings of J. 
> Bronkhorst ("The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India") 
and 
> T. Vetter ("The Ideas and Meditative Practices of Early Buddhism"). 
> Both these scholars argue that the 'jhanas' represent mainstream 
> early Buddhist meditation; unlike Vetter, who argues that 
the 'jhana' 
> meditation path early on gave way to the meditation based 
> on 'discriminating insight', I maintain that the 'jhanas' continue 
to 
> be of paramount importance for the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. 
> What I suggest is that a book such as King's relies far too heavily 
> on Buddhaghosa's "Visuddhimagga" systematization of the path under 
> the headings of 'conduct', 'consciousness' and 'understanding'. 
This 
> separating out of the three categories is certainly a useful device 
> for a presentation of the Buddhist path, but the structure of 
> the "Visuddhimagga" can make it appear that much of the account of 
> the development of 'samatha' given under the heading 'pacification 
of 
> consciousness' (citta-visuddhi) has rather little bearing on the 
> remaining five 'purifications', which are therefore to be 
understood 
> more or less exclusively in terms of wisdom and insight. The result 
> of following Buddhaghosa too closely can be a rather distorted and 
> misleading account of Theravadin meditation theory. My point here 
is 
> not that Buddhaghosa gets it wrong, but that in failing to have an 
> adequate grasp of the theory of meditation presented in the Nikayas 
> and Abhidhamma, modern scholars misunderstood Buddhaghosa. The 
> treatment of the seven sets in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, on the 
> other hand, seems to make clear and emphasize the ancient 
conception 
> of the path as the yoking together of calm and insight (cf. 
> the "Anapanasati-sutta"). The mind is stilled and brought to a 
state 
> of happiness and balance; awakening arises directly in this soil. 
> Thus in emphasizing the interdependence and reciprocity of the 
> various elements that contribute to the path, the teaching of the 
> seven sets presents us with a rather more integrated view of the 
path 
> to awakening."
> 
> L: "Seven sets" refers to the requisites for awakening 
(bodhipakkhiya-
> dhamma): 4 foundations of mindfulness, 4 right efforts, 4 roads to 
> power, 5 spiritual faculties, 5 spiritual powers, 7 factors of 
> enlightenment, the Noble Eightfold Path. 
> 
A: I'm not so sure I am of Gethin's view - that awakening arises 
directly in the soil of happiness and balance. Whilst I do tend to 
see the workings of namarupa and DO as interdependent and agree that 
our analysis of them is like "unscrambling an omelette", I also hold 
that panna can take akusala and dukkha as its object and that we 
don't have to be sitting contentedly in a cloud lotus land to attain 
Nibbana. Is that what Gethin was saying/implying?

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33266

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 1:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Bardo States

Hi Connie,

I’m always glad to pick up a thread...

--- connie <nichicon@h...> wrote: > Hey, Sarah,
> 
> if we could jump in the Way Back Time Machine and return to 'bardo
> states'... 
...
S: ....or ‘intermediate becoming’(antaraabhava.m), an idea of a pending
state between death and birth, NOT to be found in the Theravada Pali
Canon, but widely believed elsewhere.
....
C: > There are these four nutriments for the establishing of beings who
have
> taken birth or for the support of *those in search of a place to be
> born*. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the
> second, consciousness the third, and intellectual intention the fourth.
> These are the four nutriments for the establishing of beings or for the
> support of those in search of a place to be born. [SN XII.64]
> 
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu mentions "sambhavesin" and calls it/them(?) 'the
> momentary state of being b/n death and rebirth', acknowledging that
> there is no such thing in a strict Thera position, but that anecdotal
> material from around the world seems to support such a thing. 
....
S: He is correct that there ‘is no such thing in a strict Thera position’
anyway;-). B.Bodhi gives the title to the sutta of ‘If there is Lust’. If
there is lust for maintenance and becoming, samsara continues supported
by the 4 nutriments. B. Bodhi translates the phrase ‘sambhavesin’ as
‘those seeking a new existence’. Buddhadatta gives ‘sambhavana’ = coming
into existence and ‘sambhavesii’ = one who is seeking birth.

Jim gave the following commentary detail before:
>"OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.).
The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the
egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or
the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given
for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta
of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards).<
*****
C: >[How long
> can it take for the bird's shadow to land?] 
....
S: Exactly! For others, See K.Milinda, The Cutting off of Perplexity, 7th
Division:

“II.7.5: Simultaneous Arising in Different Places {Miln. 82-3} 

The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, if someone passes away and is reborn
in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir,
which one takes the longer time, and which the shorter?" 

"They are the same, your majesty." 

"Give me an analogy." 

"Your majesty, where is your town of birth?" 

"There is a place called Kalasigama, there I was born." 

"How far away, your majesty, is Kalasigama from here?" 

"About 200 yojana,[1] venerable sir." 

"How far away, your majesty, is Kashmir from here?" 

"About 12 yojana, venerable sir." 

"Go on then, your majesty, think about Kalasigama." 

"I am thinking, venerable sir." 

"Go on then, your majesty, think about Kashmir." 

"I am thinking, venerable sir." 

"Which thinking took a long time, your majesty, and which a short time?" 

"They are the same, venerable sir." 

"Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma
world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in
the same time." 

"Give me another analogy." 

"What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits
in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same
time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which
one later?" 

"They are the same, venerable sir." 

"Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma
world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in
the same time." 

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena." 

Note: 
1. One yojana is approximately 6 miles.” Transl by John Kelly
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/miln/index.html
*****
C: >He goes on to mention the
> Commentaries discussing images of past kamma and where you might go and
> says something to the effect that part of what meditation is for is to
> be able to have a certain amount of control over that process (if you
> keep your wits about you)... that you can say about particular images,
> "I don't want to go there".
....
S: The more understanding there is of conditions and anatta, the more
understanding there is that cittas just follow cittas according to
conditions, just like now. The commentaries make it very clear that the
image of past kamma or whatever object is experienced by the last javana
cittas is by complex conditions (which only a Buddha could fully know),
not by self or control. (I can add more if anyone likes).
....
C: > Obviously, I'm an auto-pilot meditator... when I open my eyes and see
> the new visible objects or places around me, I'm already there and can't
> figure out how an end of life vision would be any easier to stay out of
> than those or the places I go when my head hits the pillow. Worse yet,
> those times you just can't wake up or stop the dream.
.....
S: Just as you say, as soon as we open our eyes, visible object is seen
regardless of any wish to experience another object.
....
C: > jump back in before I'm totally outta control... 
...
S: Just to requote again from a couple of my past posts on the topic for
others’ clarification:

1. >Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy), Bk V111,2,”Of an Intermediate
State’,discusses in detail why the proposition “that there is an
intermdiate state of existence” is not valid.

In summary from the commentary:

“Some (as, for instance, the Pubbaseliyas and Sammitiyas), by a careless
acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the
interval’ - held that there is an interm stage where a being awaits
reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the
Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the
Kama-, the Rupa-, and the Arupa-worlds <SN ii,3 etc>. And it is because of
that dictum that the opponent (in so far as he is orthodox) has to deny so
many of the questions.”<

2. >I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana
commentary (Ud-a),1:10, Bahiya.
<....>
“ ‘With respect to the seen...merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’:
with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that
seen by means of eye-consciousness.” etc
....
“When you, Bahiya, are not therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha), then
you, Bahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in
both(tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)- this alone
is
the end of dukkha.”
....
<...>
Ud-a adds:

“It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an
intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase
ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming
is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still
say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon
the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg
Aiv 70ff) and ‘Those who are become or those seeking becoming’(Khp8) are
to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such thing)’, since the meaning of the
former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he
attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles
defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway
(antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter
(sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as
‘those who are become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been
destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become
(again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of
as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming
(sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on
account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been
abandoned....”

S: There is a lot more detail, but I’ll leave it here with this last quote
given in Ud-a on the same subject:

“For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the
(canonical)Pali, what business is there in postulating an intermediate
becoming of unspecified capacity?”<

Always good to hear from you Connie. Any further comments most welcome.

With metta,

Sarah
======


	
33267

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 2:35am
Subject: Impersonality

Dear Group,

There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the 
definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking 
over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of 
Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong 
enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all 
existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is 
no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no 
answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no 
encompassment by divine love ... 

Probably Mondayitis.

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33268

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 2:51am
Subject: Pariyatti, PHOTOS, quick routes to becoming a sotapanna & Snakes

Hi Christine,

I agreed with Nina - good textual quotes on the importance of pariyatti.
As you also said to Jack, ‘no need to hesitate to give your
opinion....’etc. All views very welcome;-)

On PHOTOS in the album - a good post and I appreciate your encouragement
to all:

>"Whatever breathing beings there may be.
No matter whether they are frail or firm,
With none excepted, be they long or big
Or middle-sized, or be they short or small
Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen,
Or whether they are dwelling far or near" 

.... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!<

On off-topic PHOTOS, see*

On the quick route to becoming a sotapanna thread, contrary to what was
said in the article you quoted from, there cannot be even minor
transgressions of the precepts by a sotapanna. The texts make this very
clear. (See Vism). No conditions at all, once the particular kilesa
involved have been eradicated. The article mentioned Sarakani who was
proclaimed a sotapanna at death in spite of being a heavy drinker. Again
by understanding conditions and the speed of cittas, it’s like the
examples of those who committed suicide. The intentional drinking of
alcohol had to occur before the cittas which experienced nibbana(sotapatti
magga & phala cittas) arose.

The article also suggested that ‘very ordinary people attained stream
entry upon listening to the Dhamma for the first time’. The question is,
are we such ‘very ordinary people’? It depends on accumulations and
appropraite conditions. Obviously listening to the teachings from the
Buddha himself was sufficient for many with the right accumulations.
Whatever the case, there never was and can never be any ‘sudden
enlightenment’. Pa~n~naa has to have accumulated over aeons in order to
appreciate and realize what is heard. The Jatakas and other detail given
make this very clear, I think.

And if now there is wishing to find a quick route or short-cut or just a
wishing to reach higher levels of wisdom, what’s the reality???;-)

Metta,

Sarah
=========
*On snakes (yet again;-)), my students told me it was a bamboo snake
(viper family) we came across the other day (for not the first time).
According to Jon, I had grossly underestimated its size (maybe why I was
protecting the snake rather than Jon and the other walkers), so double
whatever number I gave you before. See:
http://www.drmartinwilliams.com/wildhkphotos/wildhkphotos.html


	
33269

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 004 )

Dear Htoo,

I think this new series is a very good one - simply and clearly presented
and with good content;-). I like the way you explain the meanings of Pali
terms too, like below:

--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends,
> 
> There have been a total of six Buddhists' Councils. In the sixth 
> Buddhist Council, all teachings were made into printed form and 
> translations are available. Dhamma are a lot. But in essence, there 
> are four in terms of their characters.
> 
> They are four paramattha dhamma. Paramattha is made up of parama and 
> attha. Parama means great while attha means meaning or essence. So 
> paramattha means the greatest essence. These 4 dhamma are citta, 
> cetasika, rupa and nibbana.
....
S: Very good. So any 'Do' or 'Practice' or 'Develop' has to be by cittas
and cetasikas, not self as I think we all agree.
....

> They each have their own characteristics and they are realities in 
> ultimate sense. They are also called universal truth. These four 
> dhamma are ultimate truth. This means that they are always true at 
> any time and at any era and anywhere.
...S: Exactly, regardless of whether ever taught or known or not.
....
> Citta is translated as consciousness. Cetasikas are translated as 
> mental factors. Rupa is material. Nibbana is translated as absolute 
> peace. Apart from these four dhamma, there is no other realities in 
> essence.
...
S: Very clearly explained. Thx also for elaborating on kiriya cittas. RobM
also wrote an excellent post on these in case you didn't see it(post no
32020).

In appreciation,

Metta,

Sarah
p.s In 003 you wrote about Candamukhi, the ogress that lived on Mandalay
hill. It reminds me of an early morning walk in the pouring rain that a
few of us made to this special place. I’m not sure there’s any reference
in any of the Canonical sources to the Buddha and Ananda visiting
however??. Also, in 003, you suggested that Ven Ananda was the 'sole
answerer' at the First Council. This was true apart from the Vinaya for
which Upali gave the responses.

I wrote the following a long time ago, quoting from Bahiranidana, Vinaya
commentary, First Great Convocation, trnsl by Jayawickrama :

>Mahakassapa asked the monks whether they should rehearse the Dhamma
(i.e.Suttanta and Abhidhamma) first or the Vinaya. The monks replied:

‘ “Sir, Mahakassapa, the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of
the enlightened One; so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation
endures, therefore let us rehearse the Vinaya first” ‘.

It was decided that venerable Upali would be in charge because ‘the
Perfectly Enlightened One, while he was living, considered the venerable
Upali as the most pre-eminent in connexion with the learning of the
Vinaya’....’Thereupon the Elder (Mahakassapa) appointed himself for the
purpose of questioning about the Vinaya, and the Elder Upali agreed to
give explanations.’ 

‘.....then the venerable Mahakassapa seated himself in the president’s
seat and questioned the venerable Upali on the Vinaya (see also Vin.ii
286), “Friend Upali, where did the Exaltyed One lay down the first
Paaraajika?”

“At Vesali, Sir.”

“In connexion with whom?”

“In connexion with Sudinna, son of Kalandaka.”

“In connexion with what subject?”

“In connexion with sexual intercourse.” 

‘Then the venerable Mahakassapa questioned the venerable Upali on the
subject of the frst Paaraajika, the occasion, the person, the rule, the
corollaries, and on what constitutes an offence and what does not.....’

‘...thus was made the compilation of the Vinaya Pitaka which consists of
the Vibhanga of both categories <Mahavibhanga and Bhikkhunivibhanga>, the
Khandaka and the Parivaara. The Elder Mahakassapa questioned on
everything and the Elder Upali explained. At the conclusion of the
explanation of the questions the 500 arahats rehearsed together in a group
according to the exact way in which the compilation had been fixed...’

In the same way, it was decided that Mahakassapa would question Ananda on
the Dhamma.

‘ “Friend Ananda, where was the Brahmajala preached?”
<....>
<end quote><


	
33270

From: Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:37am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Hi Christine,

There is release from suffering, though. ;)

Actually, I sometimes think that the only reason I study the dhamma is
because I was raised Catholic, and as I moved away from the Church I felt
the need to replace it with something else (I've always been a fairly
"spiritual" person). After much searching, Buddhism seemed to best fit my
understanding of the world. There were a couple of years where I still held
to a belief in a creator god, and still wanted to believe in a being that
could be prayed to for help. However, over time, that belief has
disappeared from my mind. That has less to do with me being diligent in my
dhamma practice and more to do with my skeptical mind.

It almost sounds like you are asking if you ever regret taking the red
pill.. :)

Regards,
Hans

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 4:35 AM
Subject: [dsg] Impersonality


Dear Group,

There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the
definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking
over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of
Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong
enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all
existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is
no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no
answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no
encompassment by divine love ...

Probably Mondayitis.

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---




Yahoo! Groups Links
	
33271

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 1:45am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Hi, Christine -

In a message dated 5/24/04 6:00:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:

> Dear Group,
> 
> There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the 
> definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking 
> over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of 
> Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong 
> enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all 
> existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is 
> no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no 
> answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no 
> encompassment by divine love ... 
> 
> Probably Mondayitis.
> 
> metta and peace,
> 
========================
Did you ever have a small stone in your shoe which constantly rubbed 
against your foot causing pain, but you were so involved with other matters, 
and so inured to the constant irritation, that you barely noticed the 
discomfort? But finally, when it was possible to turn your attention to the earlier 
nearly subliminal discomfort, you took off the shoe, let the pebble go, and then, 
after putting the shoeback on and walking again, you noticed the amazingly 
sweet relief? This is what I believe the liberation of nibbana is like. It is the 
reaching of an oasis in the burning desert after a long, hard trek, or 
entering a cool cave providing escape from the ever scorching sun. You can now 
function better than ever, and the misery that you became so used to that you 
barely noted it is gone, gone beyond, fully gone ... may it be so!

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33272

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 6:21am
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Hi Christine and all,

The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's dictionary is misleading 
and misrepresents what the Buddha taught.

All fabrications/the fabricated/sankhara are anatta/not self: 

All fabrications/the fabricated/sankhara are to be seen as they 
actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They 
I am not. They are not my self." 

It has nothing to do with being impersonal or not, nothing to do 
with whether or not there is Great Being at the end of it, reunion 
with relatives, answer to prayers and petitions, companionship of 
any sort, encompassment by divine love ... 

If it is Mondayitis, see it as it actually is thus with right 
discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not 
my self."

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the 
> definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was 
thinking 
> over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of 
> Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong 
> enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all 
> existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is 
> no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no 
> answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no 
> encompassment by divine love ... 
> 
> Probably Mondayitis.
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33273

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 004 )

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Dear Htoo,
> 
> I think this new series is a very good one - simply and clearly 
presented
> and with good content;-). I like the way you explain the meanings 
of Pali
> terms too, like below:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sarah,

Thanks for your kind message. I have been writing with the heading 
numbered not because to teach but because to tie up all messages that 
have a link in a way. I am not an expert although I have been trying 
to talk on different topics.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

PS: I may possibly stay domant for a while.
	


33274

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:41am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 005 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta is thought to be consciousness, mind, spirit etc etc. But it 
does not equate with them. Consciousness is a translated word for 
citta. So there may be different meanings in the term consciousness 
but citta does not. Citta has its own character.

Consciousness the simple term means a state of awareness to self and 
the surrounding. This state is to big for citta. Because citta only 
lasts just a moment, possibly less than a billionth second. This 
again is because to be aware of the surrounding, there have to happen 
billions and billions of citta.

So the second meaning of consciousness becomes needed to define. This 
second meaning is direct equivalent to citta. This consciousness is 
not like the first term simple consciousness. So it is needed to be 
careful whenever 'consciousness' the word appears, this should be 
assumed as 'citta' in the setting of dhamma talking.

Again, citta as a single moment is quite far away from 
understandability. But to understand citta, simple English is needed 
to explain what citta means.

Citta is a nature which is aware of its specific object. This 
capability of awareness is the characteristic of citta. For example, 
there are lobha cittas or lobha mula cittas.

Lobha means craving. It is a special desire which itself has been 
deluded by ignorance and it has a strong force of attraction to do 
things. Lobha is like thirst. While thirst is craving for water, 
lobha is craving for sensual things or other subtle things. Mula 
means root.

Lobha cittas arise when a conventional being has a strong desire for 
something with deluded mind. Example: when a man win the lottery. But 
in that example, to be aware of that there is lobha, there have to 
arise billions of lobha cittas.

But each citta has their own object to be aware of. This matter will 
be explained in the course of talking on citta to some detail. There 
are different kind of citta in our daily life and these will be 
delineated in the coming posts.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	



33275

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:49am
Subject: Re: Sleep

Dear Chris!

> 
> My question is: How many watches of the night are there? When, 
> then, is one supposed to sleep?

As a Military Officer I've learned up:

OFFICERS AND NURSES ON DUTY DON'T SLEEP!!!

We are special people untouchable by human failures as sleep and 
famine, Chris!

Ah... many authors consider the Vimutthimagga as a forerunner of 
the Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga. I don't think so: the scope of these 
works are slighly different. I didn't read it yet, but I intend to do 
it.

Mettaya, Ícaro



> 
> Metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33276

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 9:08am
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

Dear Schlooten



> I have a bit of a "beginner" question:
> 
> I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused 
about
> developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't 
really *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, 
as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not 
teaching
> determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism 
that was
> common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop 
awareness?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since there aren't a "self" to take improvable decisions, each 
being just follow his own accumulations. The definition of these 
concept, "Accumulation", is the touchstone of all Nina Van Gorkon's 
discussion on these part of her work. Better, more generalizated and 
wider in scope than "Karma", The Accumulation is somewhat alike some 
remarks on Fuzzy Logic, where one can get a glimpse at how sets of 
probabilistic densities are conjoined with sets of dispersions 
making a unique path to raise up for human senses. I've saw robots 
acting by these kind of logic without any "Self"or something similar.
At some set of accumulations one get a path to tread up, with other 
sets, other paths! 


> I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for 
kusula citta
> are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them 
arise.. It
> all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't 
the
> right answer ;).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

One must get rid of Akusala patterns to entry the stream of 
Buddhistic Doctrine, dear Slooten!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated..

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Relax. Take a deep breath, a carafe of good Burgundy or Beaujolais 
and continue to read Nina's works. They are the best effort to make 
the fundamental Abhidhamma understandable for western mind.
(If you aren't fond of drinking, you can put the wine aside!)

Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33277

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 9:13am
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Dear Chris:

> Probably Mondayitis.

You are reading Jon Davis' Garfield comics so much, dear Chris!
However, He (Jon Davis and don't Garfield, of course!) is Buddhist 
of Pureland dispensation. Nevermind.
Reading your Vimmuthimagga such Mondayitis will surely disappear... 
and don't forget, dear: NURSES AND OFFICERS DON'T SLEEP!!!!!


Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33278

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Mindfulness

Ha Hans,
welkom hier.
Are you Dutch, your name is Dutch.

op 23-05-2004 22:19 schreef Hans Van Slooten op hans@h...:

> I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about
> developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching
> determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was
> common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness?
N: As a good friend wrote off line ;-)): <Pa~n~naa 'decides' in a sense,
along with many other wholesome mental factors (in my opinion, of course).
Understanding that these are impersonal
> phenomena dependent on conditions--that is, that there is no one 'behind'
> them, doing the deciding--is the beginning of understanding of the
> buddhadhamma, I THINK.>
This issue will gradually be solved in the course of your study. For me
personally, it does not help to reason much, having long debates with
logics, abstract definitions, etc. Once upon a time you took up a book and
started to study and to reflect on the Dhamma. There were conditions already
to do so. Maybe those conditions were stemming from the past, even past
lives. Continue studying, and as you hear about ways of kusala there will be
more conditions for performing those. You will accumulate kusala and
understanding and that in itself is a condition for more of the same. After
a while you will see that what was an issue before is no longer an issue.
Is there anything you would like to ask, such as on the subject of B.D.L.?
Please do so.
H: I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula
citta
> are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It
> all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the
> right answer ;).
N: Association with the right friends in Dhamma, listening and considering,
and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Reading suttas that instill
confidence in the Dhamma.
Nina.
	
33279

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

King Yama then questioned him about the third divine messenger:

³But my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who had
died one day ago or two, or three days ago, the corpse being swollen,
discoloured and festering?²
³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.²
³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old
enough, ŒI too am subject to death and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble
deeds by body, speech and mind²?²
³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.²

We then read that he had to suffer as the result of his evil deeds grievous
torments in hell.
The next day, we discussed this sutta with Acharn Sujin. She said, ³You
father is a deva messenger.² Lodewijk remarked that all that is said in this
sutta is litterally true with regard to our life with my father. He said
that he had to lift my father from his own filth, clean him and put him to
bed. King Yama¹s question about whether we have seen the Divine Messengers
is a pertinent reminder of the truth.
We cannot deny that we see the deva messengers, and we should remember not
to be neglectful. 
Acharn Sujin said that we cannot escape seeing such things in the
circumstances of our life, but that it is most important to understand
realities. We should develop understanding of seeing and visible object
since these are realities that occur all the time. Seeing conditions
thinking about what we see. We should know when we are lost in the ocean of
concepts, the ocean of ignorance and clinging. If there is no understanding
we are full of the idea of self.
Lodewijk said that the sutta reminds us to perform noble deeds through body,
speech and mind. He asked whether there are any limits to good deeds?
Acharn Sujin said that deeds and speech depend on the citta that motivates
them. When mettå, loving kindness, arises, speech and deeds will be
motivated by mettå. We should not merely think about having more mettå and
practising it. When we have more understanding, kusala can become purer. If
we do not consider the citta that arises, we may merely think of ourselves.
When we are in the company of others we may behave in an agreeable manner
and speak pleasant words, but if we do not consider the citta at that
moment, there is attachment to ourselves or conceit. We may have conceit and
we want to be considered a good person by our fellowmen.
****
Nina
	
33280

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Meaning fully drawn out' , Co.

Hi Jon, Victor, Hasituppada,
op 23-05-2004 09:50 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...:
Victor: 
>> Anguttara Nikaya II.25
>> Neyyattha Sutta
>> A Meaning to be Inferred
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains
>> a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning
>> has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse
>> whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning
>> needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

Jon: [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation uses
> 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which
> better represents the original Pali.]
N: Victor,
I am glad you give us this sutta. Short suttas are so compact, but they
imply a lot of meaning.
You like word derivations. First the Pali title: neyyattha: the meaning
which is to be inferred, deduced or implied. Neti: to guide, neyya: to be
guided, attha; meaning. Thus actually, the meaning of the sutta you need
guidance about. 
I shall now render part of the Co I have in Thai.
First an example of someone who says that the sutta should be explained
further: the Buddha speaks to the bhikkhus about this one person, these two,
three, four persons, etc.
The Co states:<Although the Buddha has declared this, in the ultimate sense
(paramattha) there is no person and therefore, the meaning should be further
explained....>
Another example in the Commentary about a foolish person. The three
characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta have been explained by
the Buddha: <All conditioned realities are impermanent, all conditioned
realities are dukkha, all dhammas are anatta.>
The foolish person thinks that this sutta still has to be explained further
and gives the interpretation that all conditioned realities are permanent,
all conditioned realities are happiness, sukkha, all dhammas are self,
atta.>
This is an example of a foolish person who thinks that the sutta which has
already been further explained should still be further explained.
This commentary reminds me to read the suttas very carefully, and it
explains that I need the Abhidhamma in order to understand the deep meaning
of there being no person, of anatta. It reminds me also that I need to apply
what the Abhidhamma teaches by vipassana. The three characteristics are
characteristics of ultimate realities, and thus these should be further
investigated by vipassana. This is how I feel personally about it.
What Hasituppada writes are also my feelings about it, except that I,
instead of a meditation session, take the application of vipassana in a
wider sense (well, any place, any time):
H: <In Vipassana there is the process of investigation of dhamma
(dhamma vicaya) for which the explanations given in the discourses
in conventional terms by the Buddha becomes more than sufficient to
understand the phenomena as they appear in meditative state.
Some times merely reading through a Sutta before a meditation
session, may give a clue to nature of things as they are, the
understanding or experiencing of which had been "blocked" in the
course of the meditation. In that sense I tend to think that Suttas
and Meditation go hand in hand. That is just my opinion.>
N: Yes, through vipassana it is as if we read all the suttas with a
different eye, they become so inspiring! I think Sutta, Abhidhamnma and
vipassana go hand in hand.
Take M.N.2, All the Taints. To be abandoned by enduring. It is about the
monk's sila, but we can apply it in our situation. Enduring cold, heat,
unwelcome words, bodily pain. This brings us to the satipatthanasutta, clear
comprehension: the bhikkhu has to have clear comprehension when wearing
robes and bowl, etc. We see again that sila, vinaya included, should never
be separated from satipatthana. We are reminded to be aware of whatever
appears through the six doorways, and these are the paramattha dhammas as
taught in the Abhidhamma. Nama and rupa, nothing else. Heat and cold: they
are rupas appearing through the bodysense, even now. Unwelcome words: these
also are heard now and then. Sound is a rupa, thinking of words is nama.
Philip asked about loathsomeness of the body in daily life: yes, it occurs
time and again. It brings us to reality: what we take for the body are only
rupa elements. Softness, heardness, etc. All sections of the
satipatthanasutta cause us to wake up from our dreams and be aware of nama
and rupa. 
Nina.
	
33281

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:20am
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

Hi Rob!!!


> In 1927, Werner Heisenberg wrote, "The 'path' comes into existence 
> only when we observe it." Heisenberg was one of the founders of 
> modern physics and he was referring to the path of atomic particles 
> such as electrons. Heisenberg was making the point that the 
classical 
> view of an "objective observer" was wrong. We can say that 
the 'path 
> of our life' does not exist until it is observed. The concepts 
> of "fatalism" or "determinism" are rooted in the self-view that 
there 
> is an objective observer. If our "subjective observer" perspective 
> makes it impossible for us to determine the future, how can we say 
> that the future is predetermined?

Bertrand Russell once said that there aren't so much 
philosophical derivations to be coined up from present day Physical 
achievements. Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Group Theory,etc, are 
only very sophisticated applications of Pure Mathematics to ultimate 
pragmatic problems, very very afar of day-to-day human commonsense. 
Today Heisenberg's developments seems to be usual, but his 
application of Matrix Algebra, Eigenvalues, Eigenfunctions and Non-
commutativity on Path Dynamics was a very bold jump out of Classical 
Mechanics scheme!
But what one could say about it concerning Philosophy?
At Renascence such comprised mentality really existed: 
Mathematics, Physics and Philosophy were good neighbors...but with 
Kepler, Copernicus and Galileo such age of philosophical deterrence 
disappeared. You can derive a existential "Subjective Observer" from 
its Quantum Mechanical similar, but such ideas has their own niches 
to be concerned on.

Mettaya, Ícaro


> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33282

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:27am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 006 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta is one of ultimate realities. Definition of citta has been 
discussed in the previous post. There are immeasurable and enormous 
amount of cittas in any given moment.

Even though there are many many cittas, in terms of thier character, 
there is a single nature. That is capability of awareness to its 
object or knowing of its object.

Although citta is just only one reality, depending on its 
accompanying cetasikas ( cetasika will be discussed in later posts ), 
citta becomes many in terms of its associated cetasika or mental 
factors. Due to these mental factors, citta gets different names.

There are 89 cittas in total. Again if 8 lokuttara cittas or 8 
supramundane consciousness are seen as 40 lokuttara cittas, then 
there will be 121 cittas in total.

Cittas may be grouped as kamavacara cittas, rupavacara cittas, 
arupavacara cittas, and lokuttara cittas in terms of their origin or 
where they arise or which sphere of realm they arise.

Kamavacara is composed of kama + avacara. Kama means sensual things 
like sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. Realms where these things 
prevail are called sensual sphere or kama bhumi. Again bhumi means 
realm. Bhumi are where sattas with the same characteristics dwell and 
stay.

Avacara means frequently arising. So kamavacara means 'frequently 
arising in sensual sphere or kama bhumi.' Kama bhumis are niriya or 
hell, tiracchana or animal, peta or hungry ghost, asurakara or demon, 
manussa or human, and 6 deva realms. So kamavacara cittas are cittas 
that frequently arising in these 11 bhumis or realms.

This does not mean that kamavacara cittas do not arise in other non-
sensual sphere. But there are some limitation and they will be 
discussed in due course.

Rupavacara comprises rupa and avacara. Rupa here means rupa brahmas. 
So rupavacara means frequently arising in rupa brahma realms. Again 
this does not mean rupavacaras cittas arise only in rupa brahma 
realms. They are frequent in rupa brahma realms but they are still 
possible in other realms such as human and deva.

Arupavacara composes of arupa and avacara. These cittas frequently 
arise in arupa brahma realms. But they can still arise in manussa or 
human realm, deva realms and rupa brahma realms.

Lokuttara is made up of loka and uttara. Loka means kama loka or 
sensual sphere, rupa loka or fine material sphere, and arupa loka or 
immaterial sphere. Lokuttara means not related to these three loka or 
three sphere and lokuttara cittas are beyond loka or spheres of 
sense, fine material, and immaterial. Lokuttara cittas are the 
highest and the greatest of all cittas.

In terms of the sphere where citta frequently arises, cittas are 
grouped into kamavacara, rupavacara, arupavacara and lokuttara. There 
are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas, 12 arupavacara cittas 
and 8 lokuttara cittas. So altogether there will be 54 + 15 + 12 + 8 
= 89 cittas. If lokuttara citta arises with jhana then there will be 
40 lokuttara cittas. In that case 54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121 cittas can 
be considered as a total.

May you be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33283

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 0:37pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Meaning fully drawn out' , Co.

Hi Nina and all,

So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following 
discourses?

If so, how?

Anguttara Nikaya II.23
Abhasita Sutta
What Was Not Said
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains
what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by
the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the
Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who
slander the Tathagata."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-023.html

Anguttara Nikaya II.25
Neyyattha Sutta
A Meaning to be Inferred
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains
a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning
has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse
whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning
needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-025.html



Metta,
Victor

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33229

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Hi Jon, Victor, Hasituppada,
[snip]
> N: Victor,
> I am glad you give us this sutta. Short suttas are so compact, but 
they
> imply a lot of meaning.
> You like word derivations. First the Pali title: neyyattha: the 
meaning
> which is to be inferred, deduced or implied. Neti: to guide, 
neyya: to be
> guided, attha; meaning. Thus actually, the meaning of the sutta 
you need
> guidance about. 
> I shall now render part of the Co I have in Thai.
> First an example of someone who says that the sutta should be 
explained
> further: the Buddha speaks to the bhikkhus about this one person, 
these two,
> three, four persons, etc.
> The Co states:<Although the Buddha has declared this, in the 
ultimate sense
> (paramattha) there is no person and therefore, the meaning should 
be further
> explained....>
> Another example in the Commentary about a foolish person. The three
> characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta have been 
explained by
> the Buddha: <All conditioned realities are impermanent, all 
conditioned
> realities are dukkha, all dhammas are anatta.>
> The foolish person thinks that this sutta still has to be 
explained further
> and gives the interpretation that all conditioned realities are 
permanent,
> all conditioned realities are happiness, sukkha, all dhammas are 
self,
> atta.>
> This is an example of a foolish person who thinks that the sutta 
which has
> already been further explained should still be further explained.
> This commentary reminds me to read the suttas very carefully, and 
it
> explains that I need the Abhidhamma in order to understand the 
deep meaning
> of there being no person, of anatta. It reminds me also that I 
need to apply
> what the Abhidhamma teaches by vipassana. The three 
characteristics are
> characteristics of ultimate realities, and thus these should be 
further
> investigated by vipassana. This is how I feel personally about it.
> What Hasituppada writes are also my feelings about it, except that 
I,
> instead of a meditation session, take the application of vipassana 
in a
> wider sense (well, any place, any time):
[snip] 
> Nina.
	
33284

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 1:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Hello Hans, Howard, Victor, Icaro, and all,

Hans - Yes, I have left behind the belief in a creator god, and I do 
have confidence in the Dhamma. But from time to time there arises a 
yearning, a 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' feeling which grows out of 
the scariness of anatta. When you say "It almost sounds like you 
are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :)" - you have 
probably hit the nail of the head. I see my colleagues at work - 
devout Christians and Moslems who sometimes seem more at peace than 
I. Both deal with bad happenings in different ways - the Christian 
by ' bad times are Gods' lessons to learn' and the Moslem 'it's the 
will of Allah'. But they are not 'alone' and comfortless as 
Buddhists are.

Howard - I liked your post but it makes me wonder. Your 
description of nibbana seems very like an ongoing existence. 
Couldn't this be the christian 'perfected' soul reaching the 
sanctuary of heaven and living on just as before, except without 
faults? I understand 'peace of mind' before death - I understand 
incessant re-becoming with no rest between births - but what is the 
final nibbana of buddhism, except extinction? ...

Victor - you say, "The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's 
dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha 
taught." Pretty strong statement Victor -I'd love to hear your 
explanation of just how you come to this conclusion. 

Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a Social 
Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) I hope this doesn't 
irreparably damage my image. :-) Regarding Garfield - I have to 
confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books 
called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray 
Ball? Now DOG is a real dog!
http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33285

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 2:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Dear Chris:


> 
> Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a 
Social 
> Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Hospital duties are very demanding!
You must put aside from your citta the slightest idea about 
sleeping as a human necessity!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this doesn't 
> irreparably damage my image. :-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Not at all, dear!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Garfield - I have to 
> confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books 
> called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray 
> Ball? Now DOG is a real dog!
> http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

No, no... I don't even hear about it.
The only dog that comes to my memory now is Porthos, Captain 
Archer's mascot ( ENTERPRISE tv series, UPN at U.S.A., AXN here on 
Brazil and only Godog nows at what tv channel it's being exibited at 
your city, dear Chris!)

"It's God to live at Dog ? Never! But the best of them are of us!"
(Aleister Crowley, The Book of The Law)

I will check it out about Footrot Flats... is New Zealand your 
home country ? WOW!
And I am a fanatic Trekker too!

Mettaya, Ícaro

> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33286

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:46pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor,

No matter how much explanation there is, it seems there is always a need
for more.

Larry
	
33287

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Hi Christine and all,

I come to conclude that the definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's 
dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught by 
reflecting, comprehending/understanding what the Buddha taught in 
Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59)
The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristics, and comparing what 
the Buddha taught in the discourse with the definition on "anatta" 
in Nyanatiloka's dictionary.

I feel that intuitively, you know something is wrong with that 
definition. However, since you hold Nyanatiloka's dictionary 
authoritative, you don't think that definition is misleading and 
misrepresenting. Thus, insteading finding that the definition 
on "anatta" wrong, you find "anatta" "scary."

So instead of resorting to Nyanatiloka's dictionary, why not check 
Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) from the Pali Canon?

I think you also misunderstood nibbana as extinction. Nibbana does 
not mean extinction.

I would suggest 
The Mind Like Fire Unbound: An Image in the Early Buddhist 
Discourses, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/index.h
tml

Have a good day,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello Hans, Howard, Victor, Icaro, and all,
> 
> Hans - Yes, I have left behind the belief in a creator god, and I 
do 
> have confidence in the Dhamma. But from time to time there arises 
a 
> yearning, a 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' feeling which grows out 
of 
> the scariness of anatta. When you say "It almost sounds like you 
> are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :)" - you 
have 
> probably hit the nail of the head. I see my colleagues at work - 
> devout Christians and Moslems who sometimes seem more at peace 
than 
> I. Both deal with bad happenings in different ways - the 
Christian 
> by ' bad times are Gods' lessons to learn' and the Moslem 'it's 
the 
> will of Allah'. But they are not 'alone' and comfortless as 
> Buddhists are.
> 
> Howard - I liked your post but it makes me wonder. Your 
> description of nibbana seems very like an ongoing existence. 
> Couldn't this be the christian 'perfected' soul reaching the 
> sanctuary of heaven and living on just as before, except without 
> faults? I understand 'peace of mind' before death - I understand 
> incessant re-becoming with no rest between births - but what is 
the 
> final nibbana of buddhism, except extinction? ...
> 
> Victor - you say, "The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's 
> dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha 
> taught." Pretty strong statement Victor -I'd love to hear your 
> explanation of just how you come to this conclusion. 
> 
> Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a 
Social 
> Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) I hope this doesn't 
> irreparably damage my image. :-) Regarding Garfield - I have to 
> confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books 
> called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray 
> Ball? Now DOG is a real dog!
> http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm 
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33288

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:57pm
Subject: Vism.XIV 79

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV

79. Again, it is of five kinds as born of one, born of two, born of
three, born of four, and not born of anything. 
Herein, what is kamma-born only or consciousness-born only is called
'born of one'. Of these, materiality of the faculties, together with the
heart-basis, is kamma-born only; the two intimations are
consciousness-born only. But what is born [now] of consciousness and
[now] of temperature is called 'born of two'. That is the sound base
only.(33) What is born of temperature, consciousness, and nutriment 
[452] is called 'born of three'. But that is the three beginning with
'lightness' only. What is born from the four beginning with kamma is
called 'born of four'. That is all the rest except 'matter as
characteristic'.
---------------------
note 33. ' "The sound base only": here some say, "The consciousness-born
is always intimative (savi~n~nattika)". The Ancients say, "There is
sound due to the intervention (vipphaara) of applied thought that does
not intimate". While depending on the word of the Great Commentary that
puts it thus, "Intimatable (cognizable) through the ear by means of the
sound due to applied thought's intervention", still there is also need
of the arising of consciousness-originated sound without intimation
(cognition) for because of the words "For the intimation (cognition) is
not due to intimating speech" (?), it arises together with sound not
intimatable (cognizable) through the ear. Others, however, do not reject
the Great Commentary's statement and they comment on its intention. How?
[They say that] the non-intimation (non-cognition) through the ear of
the sound activated due to applied thought's intervention is stated in
the Suttas with this intention, "He tells by hearing with the divine ear
the subtle sound that is conascent with the intimation, originated by
applied thought, and consisting in movement of the tongue and palate,
and so on" (cf. A.i,171), and that in the Pa.t.thaana (P.tn.1,7) the
state of object condition for ear-consciousness is stated with reference
to gross sound' (Pm. 460.)
	
33289

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:00pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Larry,

Did you read and reflect on the Ven Maha Kaccana's analysis of the 
unanalyzed detailed meaning of the brief statement

"If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories 
of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, 
welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the 
obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions 
of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, 
the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of 
ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of 
arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & 
false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease 
without remainder."

?

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> No matter how much explanation there is, it seems there is always 
a need
> for more.
> 
> Larry
	
33290

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:16pm
Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hello Rob, and all

> This weekend, our family went to the beach. As my wife and I 
walked 
> along the shore, a red ant crawled onto my wife's leg and bit her. 
> Instinctively, she brushed the offending ant away. She stopped 
> walking and said with concern, "We have to save the ant. It might 
> drown." 

I enjoyed this story when I read it, and thought "mudita." Later as 
I walked in the park, I saw a park worker using a power cutter to cut 
away some long grass and I found myself wondering about how many 
insencts were being killed.

I think this provided a nice little example of how hearing about 
someone else's kusala can lead to kusala arising though us, both 
immediately and in a conditioned way later.

> Theory is good. Practice is better. 

A timely reminder for me. I'm so fascinated by reading about kusala 
and akusala etc that I am still not examining them in the moment as 
much as I will one day soon. 

Study > Practice > Realization, right? 

Metta,

Phil
	
33291

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor,

"Nothing there to relish" sounds like a path moment. Nice work if you
can get it.

Larry
------------------------
"If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of
complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome,
or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of
passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the
obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of
passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of
taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes,
accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these
evil, unskillful things cease without remainder."
	
33292

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Hello Christine, and all

> Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong 
> enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all 
> existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is 
> no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no 
> answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no 
> encompassment by divine love ... 


Ph: I think about this a lot. For example, yesterday I happened 
across a maudlin movie on TV in which a young many dying of AIDS lay 
in his mother's arms and she read the wonderful "Goodnight Moon" to 
him. It brought me into the future, when I or Naomi will lie dying, 
one of us before the other, and there will be no hope of reunion. 
Will we resist the urge to believe in a comforting falsehood at that 
time? Will I tell her a falsehood or strugle to believe her's in 
order to make the parting easier?

The notion of reunion beyond death is carried on in Japanese 
Buddhism - at least in the folk religion aspects of it. There is talk 
of "ano yo" - that world - where souls go after death, beyond a 
river. I don't know if loved ones have a reunion beyond that river, 
but there is the pure land people go to, in some traditions. "Ano yo" 
is commonly used in most traditions. And during the Obon festival in 
summer, the spirits of ancestors return to earth and are said to be 
reassured by the sight of people dancing the harmonious Obon dance. 

Even when we read about khamma, there is always this talk of "her" 
or "his" past life - how can we use such a personal pronoun to refer 
to a being whose only connection to the living being is a single 
rebirth citta? I think in some sense we are comforted by this notion 
of "my" past or future lives. But it is surely much more impersonal 
than that.

It takes a lot of courage, indeed. I wonder if I will be strong 
enough not to fall back into comforting notions when I am at death's 
door. Whether there will be enough right understanding to prevent 
that from happening. At this moment, I am not confident.

Maybe Tuesdayitis.

Metta,
Phil
	
33293

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:43pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Larry,

Again, did you read Ven Maha Kaccana's analysis of the unanalyzed 
detailed meaning of the brief statement

"If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories
of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish,
welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the
obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions
of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit,
the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of
ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of
arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, &
false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease
without remainder."*

?

Metta,
Victor

* http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> "Nothing there to relish" sounds like a path moment. Nice work if 
you
> can get it.
> 
> Larry
> ------------------------
> "If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories 
of
> complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, 
welcome,
> or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of
> passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the
> obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the 
obsessions of
> passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the 
end of
> taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes,
> accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where 
these
> evil, unskillful things cease without remainder."
	
33294

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:44pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Hi, Christine -

In a message dated 5/24/2004 4:51:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes:

> 
> Hello Hans, Howard, Victor, Icaro, and all,
> 
> Hans - Yes, I have left behind the belief in a creator god, and I do 
> have confidence in the Dhamma. But from time to time there arises a 
> yearning, a 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' feeling which grows out of 
> the scariness of anatta. When you say "It almost sounds like you 
> are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :)" - you have 
> probably hit the nail of the head. I see my colleagues at work - 
> devout Christians and Moslems who sometimes seem more at peace than 
> I. Both deal with bad happenings in different ways - the Christian 
> by ' bad times are Gods' lessons to learn' and the Moslem 'it's the 
> will of Allah'. But they are not 'alone' and comfortless as 
> Buddhists are.
------------------------
Howard:
Buddhists aren't alone. We have reality on our side! ;-) And what I have acquired, to some samll degree, from my Buddhist practice is the sense that however things go, they are "okay". (And I don't find this to contradict the teaching of dukkha. But, then, I guess I'm a bit weird. BTW, there used to be a cyber-friend of mine on a couple Buddhist lists who liked to call me "Howeird"! ;-)
--------------------------
> 
> Howard - I liked your post but it makes me wonder. Your 
> description of nibbana seems very like an ongoing existence. 
------------------------
Howard:
Well, I do accept that a possible valid interpretation of the Dhamma allows for continuing experience of a radically different sort for an arahant. But I don't think it would particularly matter to an arahant whether experience were to continue or not (except possibly with regard to being available to be of help to others). After all, an arahant would have no craving and no sense of self or lasting core in any phenomena. 
-----------------------------
> Couldn't this be the christian 'perfected' soul reaching the 
> sanctuary of heaven and living on just as before, except without 
> faults? I understand 'peace of mind' before death - I understand 
> incessant re-becoming with no rest between births - but what is the 
> final nibbana of buddhism, except extinction? ...
--------------------------
Howard:
Extinction of what, exactly? It *could* be merely extinction of dukkha and of all "things" in the sense of apparent separate, self-existing "things", and yet not be a complete nullity. This, in fact, is what I believe.
But what if, in fact, there no longer were experience beyond the passing of an arahant? What makes the number 1 any better than the number 0? Now we crave experience. But why? What makes it so wonderful? I think it is illusion that makes it so wonderful. Whatever nibbana is, the Buddha, and his arahant followers made it very clear that there is nothing to fear in it. In fact, it is the summum bonum.
----------------------------
> 
> Victor - you say, "The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's 
> dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha 
> taught." Pretty strong statement Victor -I'd love to hear your 
> explanation of just how you come to this conclusion. 
> 
> Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a Social 
> Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) I hope this doesn't 
> irreparably damage my image. :-) Regarding Garfield - I have to 
> confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books 
> called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer 
> Murray 
> Ball? Now DOG is a real dog!
> http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm 
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
=============================
With metta,
Howard
	
33295

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 5:02pm
Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

Hello Nina, and all



> When mett?E loving kindness, arises, speech and deeds will be
> motivated by mett?E We should not merely think about having more 
mett?Eand
> practising it. When we have more understanding, kusala can become 
purer. If
> we do not consider the citta that arises, we may merely think of 
ourselves.

Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, feeling 
a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had 
been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the 
past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice of 
intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my blues, 
perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual image 
of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and 
discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what 
arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work 
fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a bench 
arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch 
and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being 
killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his 
wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my 
greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell away 
and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see 
the dysfunctional in-laws. 

I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and 
whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But the 
point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of the 
flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling. 

It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. It was 
rupa and nama, rising and falling.
That is progress.


> When we are in the company of others we may behave in an agreeable 
manner
> and speak pleasant words, but if we do not consider the citta at 
that
> moment, there is attachment to ourselves or conceit. We may have 
conceit and
> we want to be considered a good person by our fellowmen.

Ph: Good reminder. Thanks. Of course, wanting to be considered a 
good person can lead to behaviour that helps others, at least in the 
moment, even if it is not leading to kusala for oneself. I think it 
is natural to want to be considered a good person when one is 
setting out on the way. I have wanted to be considered a good 
person because I knew that being in the presence of someone you 
consider to be a good person is encouraging. So if others thought me 
to be a good person they might feel encouraged. Life is so hard and 
it is reassuring to meet "good" people. But that is wrong view based 
on belief in a self with a definable character. I know that. Letting 
go of this sort of thing gradually...no hurry! 


Metta,
Phil
	
33296

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 5:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

Hi, Phil -

In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes:

> Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, feeling
> a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had
> been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the
> past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice of
> intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my blues,
> perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual image
> of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and
> discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what
> arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work
> fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a bench
> arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch
> and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being
> killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his
> wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my
> greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell away
> and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see
> the dysfunctional in-laws.
> 
> I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and
> whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But the
> point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of the
> flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling.
> 
> It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. 
> It was
> rupa and nama, rising and falling.
> That is progress.
========================
This is great, Phil. I loved it!

With metta,
Howard
	
33297

From: Carl <c7carl@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 6:45pm
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 )

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" 
<htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
> Dear Dhamma Friends,
> 
> Citta is one of ultimate realities. Definition of citta has been 
> discussed in the previous post. There are immeasurable and 
enormous 
> amount of cittas in any given moment.
> 
> Even though there are many many cittas, in terms of thier 
character, 
> there is a single nature. That is capability of awareness to its 
> object or knowing of its object.
> 
> Although citta is just only one reality, depending on its 
> accompanying cetasikas ( cetasika will be discussed in later 
posts ), 
> citta becomes many in terms of its associated cetasika or mental 
> factors. Due to these mental factors, citta gets different names. 
......................Snip..............
> 
> Htoo Naing


Dear Htoo, I am liking this current teaching series very much. 
I would like to ask one question. Is it correct to understand 
citta as "one-thing". One reality as you say. There is only one-
kind of citta, but it is flavored by a mixture of particular 
cetasikas. There are 89 flavors of citta. One citta, many 
cetasikas? Citta is "named" depending on the kind of cetasikas it 
carries? Thanks carl
	
33298

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 7:39pm
Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Van Slooten" 
<hans@h...> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a bit of a "beginner" question:
> 
> I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused 
about
> developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't 
really *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, 
as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. 

Hi Hans,

If you ask a religious person why he worships a god, he will talk 
about being saved and finding eternal peace in heaven. I gave 
up religion in 1967 and discovered Buddhism nine years later. 
However, the Buddhist teaching I received was little more than a 
variation of the religious teaching I had renounced. It involved the 
idea of a self who practised satipatthana and who would one day 
discover Nibbana. 

In 2001, I joined dsg and learned about the original form of 
Theravada Buddhism as elucidated in the ancient commentaries. In 
this teaching, the doctrine of anatta applies at every step of the 
way. It is very, very different to modern forms of Buddhism and it 
is not to everyone's taste: even at dsg it is a minority view. 

I should be careful, when talking this way, not to promote 
factionalism within our group, but you will see what I mean.

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33299

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:08pm
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 )

Hi Carl,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" <c7carl@y...> wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" 
> <htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
> > Citta is one of ultimate realities. Definition of citta has been 
> > discussed in the previous post. There are immeasurable and 
> enormous 
> > amount of cittas in any given moment.
> > 
> > Even though there are many many cittas, in terms of thier 
> character, 
> > there is a single nature. That is capability of awareness to its 
> > object or knowing of its object.
> > 
> > Although citta is just only one reality, depending on its 
> > accompanying cetasikas ( cetasika will be discussed in later 
> posts ), 
> > citta becomes many in terms of its associated cetasika or mental 
> > factors. Due to these mental factors, citta gets different 
names. 
> Dear Htoo, I am liking this current teaching series very much. 
> I would like to ask one question. Is it correct to understand 
> citta as "one-thing". One reality as you say. There is only one-
> kind of citta, but it is flavored by a mixture of particular 
> cetasikas. There are 89 flavors of citta. One citta, many 
> cetasikas? Citta is "named" depending on the kind of cetasikas it 
> carries? Thanks carl

I agree with you that it is an excellent series.

I might be able to help you on your question. In Abhidhamma, the 
term "citta" has two meanings:
1. Consciousness / awareness - one type
2. Mental state consisting of consciousness / awareness plus 
cetasikas (mental factors) - 89 or 121 types, depending on how you 
count

One could say citta = citta + cetasikas

Where the citta to the left of the = is mental state and the citta to 
the right of the = is consciousness.

Hope that this helps.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33300

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:54pm
Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> > Theory is good. Practice is better. 
> 
> A timely reminder for me. I'm so fascinated by reading about 
kusala 
> and akusala etc that I am still not examining them in the moment as 
> much as I will one day soon. 

=====

One day soon? Is there something that has to happen before you feel 
that you are ready to start examining the current moment more 
frequently?

=====
> 
> Study > Practice > Realization, right? 

Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33301

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32pm
Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Phil -
> 
> In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
plnao@j... writes:
> 
> > Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, 
feeling
> > a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that 
had
> > been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the
> > past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice 
of
> > intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my 
blues,
> > perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual 
image
> > of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and
> > discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what
> > arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to 
work
> > fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a 
bench
> > arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm 
stretch
> > and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being
> > killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his
> > wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my
> > greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell 
away
> > and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to 
see
> > the dysfunctional in-laws.
> > 
> > I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and
> > whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But 
the
> > point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of 
the
> > flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling.
> > 
> > It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. 
> > It was
> > rupa and nama, rising and falling.
> > That is progress.
> ========================
> This is great, Phil. I loved it!
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Friend Phil,

I concur with Howard, this post is very beautifully written and 
expressed! As the Buddha taught, the mind should reside continually 
(while awake and not tired) in the Four Abodes: Loving-Kindness, 
Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. These are the `homes' 
or `abodes' for the mind and the mind should never wander too far 
from them. Sometimes a response of Metta is appropriate, sometimes 
a response of Compassion is more appropriate. Sometimes Sympathetic 
Joy is appropriate. And Equanimity should always be present to 
assure that none of these mind states become too self-serving or 
desirous.

I am very happy that you are finding peace and balance in your 
life. Your post makes me feel Sympathetic Joy! Thanks!

Metta, James
	
33302

From: Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:17pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Mindfulness

Hello Nina,

> Ha Hans,
> welkom hier.
> Are you Dutch, your name is Dutch.
>

My ancestory is Dutch, but I'm pretty much 100% American. 3-4 generations
on both sides (with some German and Swedish thrown in for good measure).

> This issue will gradually be solved in the course of your study. For me
> personally, it does not help to reason much, having long debates with
> logics, abstract definitions, etc. Once upon a time you took up a book and
> started to study and to reflect on the Dhamma. There were conditions
already
> to do so. Maybe those conditions were stemming from the past, even past
> lives. Continue studying, and as you hear about ways of kusala there will
be
> more conditions for performing those. You will accumulate kusala and
> understanding and that in itself is a condition for more of the same.
After
> a while you will see that what was an issue before is no longer an issue.
> Is there anything you would like to ask, such as on the subject of B.D.L.?
> Please do so.

Let's hope so! I think I'll follow your advice and if any questions become
clear (even if their answers don't) I'll raise them to the group.

> N: Association with the right friends in Dhamma, listening and
considering,
> and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Reading suttas that instill
> confidence in the Dhamma.
> Nina.
>

Thanks again, I'm already finding this group very helpful, as well.

Regards,
Hans
	
33303

From: Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 5:30pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness

Hello Nina, Mike, Icaro, Victor, Rob, Phil, and All (hope I didn't forget
anyone :),

Thanks for all of your helpful comments on my question. I still feel a
little like someone just said, "what's the sound of one hand clapping?" but
I think I have a little better (conceptual) idea of developing mindfulness.
I guess spending more time doing rather than studying would probably help a
lot. I guess it's just the intellectual in "me." ;)

I still have "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" sitting on my bookshelf looking at
me, though, and I think I'm going to have to try that one before I go back
and read "BDL." And I should study some suttas on mindfulness...

Again, thanks for the help, everyone!

Regards,
Hans
	


33304

From: Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> 
Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:04pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness

>
> Hi Hans,
>
> If you ask a religious person why he worships a god, he will talk
> about being saved and finding eternal peace in heaven. I gave
> up religion in 1967 and discovered Buddhism nine years later.
> However, the Buddhist teaching I received was little more than a
> variation of the religious teaching I had renounced. It involved the
> idea of a self who practised satipatthana and who would one day
> discover Nibbana.
>
> In 2001, I joined dsg and learned about the original form of
> Theravada Buddhism as elucidated in the ancient commentaries. In
> this teaching, the doctrine of anatta applies at every step of the
> way. It is very, very different to modern forms of Buddhism and it
> is not to everyone's taste: even at dsg it is a minority view.
>
> I should be careful, when talking this way, not to promote
> factionalism within our group, but you will see what I mean.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ken H
>

Hi Ken,

Actually, I discovered Buddhism for about 7 years ago in the form of the
Gelugpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism. However, after a few years of that, I
found that it contained many of the trappings of the Catholicism I had left
behind, with a few more added for good measure! Needless to say, I moved
away from Buddhism for a couple years and floated around in
"agnosticism/apathy-land." Then one day I found my copy of the Majjhama
Nikaya in a box of books and I began reading that and studying the Theravada
texts on Access to Insight (I had read them before while I was studying
Tibetan Buddhism, but the seemed to make more sense this time). So, I
started reading everything I could about Theravada Buddhism, and found that
it was what I thought Buddhism was supposed to be about in the first place.

Fast forward a bit... and I read "Buddhism in Daily Life" and I noticed
immediately that it was different from the other Theravada texts and
teachers I had read and listened to. Which is what ultimately lead me here.
It's still too early to say what I think (does it even matter? "I" don't
exist! Sorry, I'll stop now. ;), but I'll just say I'm glad that someone on
dhamma-list pointed me to this group. I've already found it very helpful in
the short time I've been here.

Regards,
Hans
	

	


33305

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:03am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Victor,

Sorry for delays on this thread.

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah and all,
> 
> In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is 
> dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, 
> it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
> dukkha, death is not itself dukkha.
.....
S: (Most the quotes I gave can also be found in the Visuddhimagga chXV1,
32f - I tend to quote from the Sammohavinodani simply because it’s a
smaller book to take out with me and mark up and s’times it gives the
Pali).

I don’t think there’s any contradiction.

The quotes said that birth is not itself suffering, ‘but by being the
basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering’.

Sammohavinodani
517 
‘There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five aggregates [as
objects] of clinging are suffering.’

519
“All suffering that follows birth
here listed, and all that as well
Not listed, would not come to be
without these [aggregates of clinging].
Therefore these aggregates of clinging
have been described in short as pain
By him, the greatest of the sages,
who taught the end of suffering.”

In other words, without birth (patisandhi citta) as condition, there would
be not be the conditions for the subsequent rising and falling away of
khandhas, the aggregates of clinging, inherently dukkha.
RobM gave a very useful and detailed analysis from U Silananda on the
conditions involved in D.O. For the last link, he wrote:

>11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, 
grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270]

Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma
and decisive support condition.

Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
grief and despair through decisive support condition.<
*****
This is what is meant by birth as ‘basis’ for suffering by being the
essential condition.

I think it’s just the same as that expressed in the suttas. Yesterday, I
was discussing SN12:64 with Connie, ‘If there is Lust’. It reads:

“Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is
future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, aging, and
death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.”

Side note - This morning I was worried when I heard that our laundry had
been lost by local dry-cleaners and had obsessed about the value and
diffiulties of replacement when they said it had been stolen. Eventually
it was found and I knew the salesgirl had been through an anxious time, so
I took her a cake on my way home to celebrate. When I got home, I got a
call to say that a very close friend and former neighbour has just been
diagnosed (out of the blue) with stage3 tonsil cancer, spread to the lymph
nodes. He’s a strong, super-fit guy & Jon’s age. Truly, we never know what
we’ll hear or see or proliferate about next. I’m rather distracted as I
write here, try to assist our friend as I can and feeling rather
overwhelmed with sorrow all at the same time. Truly, birth is a condition
for all this.....

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33306

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:29am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Jack & Howard,

I appreciated your comments and feedback too.
....
H:> These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that

> dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the
> sense 
> of 
> being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt
> 
> unhappiness or sorrow or distress. 
J:> All,
> I think the above is the only interpretation that makes sense.
....
S: I think the full passages and definitions of dukkha make it clear that
the 5 khandhas (subject to clinging) are included....not just where
‘dukkha is felt as unhappiness or sorrow or distress’. ‘..and the
suffering which arises in a state of bliss...’.

517: “In the description of the aggregates [as objects] of clinging,
‘sa”nkhittena (‘in short’)’ is said with reference to the [manner] of
teaching. For suffering cannot be summed up in short as so many hundred
kinds of suffering, or so many thousand kinds of suffering, or so many
hundred thousand kinds of suffering; but it can by the [manner of]
teaching. Therefore he spoke thus, summing up the teaching in short [in
this way:]’There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five
aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering.”
.....
J:>(Another 
> allied interpretation is that dhammas are dukkha for a worldling but
> only for a 
> worldling.) 
....
S: On the contrary, I understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’, ‘sabbe sankhara
dukkha’ to mean that all conditioned dhammas, regardless of worldling or
non-worldling status, as being dukkha because of their impermanence,
‘because of being oppressed by rise and fall’ and not worth clinging to at
all.
.....
J:> The 3rd Noble Truth says there is cessation of dukkha. This
> cessation 
> of dukkha does not mean that dhammas disappear. So, dhammas can exist
> without 
> dukkha.
....
Nibbana itself is the unconditioned dhamma, not dukkha, not subject to
rise and fall. Subsequent dhammas experiencing and experienced (i.e 5
khandhas) are dukkha until they cease at the end of an arahant’s life.
....
J: > If we look at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, it does not imply
that
> 
> cessation means, poof, dhammas disappear. 
...
S: Agreed. Only at parinibbana.
....
>DO points to the fact that
> dhammas can 
> exist without suffering if we make the right choices. It gives us a way
> out.
....
S: Surely only nibbana is not inherently anicca or dukkha. The Eightfold
Path is the way out because it’s the way that leads to the realization of
nibbana and eventually to parinibbana by the full knowing of conditioned
dhammas and detachment from what is anicca, dukkha and anatta.

Please don’t hesitate at all when you have other ideas - it’s good to hear
and consider them always.

Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33307

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hello Victor, all,
I looked at the Anattalakkhana sutta and Nyanatiloka's dictionary 
definition but could not find anything in dictionary definition that 
was misleading or misrepresented what the Buddha taught. I have 
included both below - could you (or anyone) point out for me the 
misrepresentations that are being alluded to please? 
metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
=========================================================
III. The Book of the Aggregates (Khandhavagga) 22. Khandhasamyutta 
59 (7) The Characteristic of Nonself (Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at 
Baaraanasii in the Deer Park at Isipatana. [note 90] There the 
Blessed One addressed the Bhikkhus of the group of five thus:

"Bhikkhus!"
"Venerable sir!" those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:
"Bhikkhus, form is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, form were self, this 
form would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have 
it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus; 
But because form is nonself, form leads to affliction, and it is not 
possible to have it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not 
be thus.' [note 91]

"Feeling is nonself … Perception is nonself … Volitional formations 
are nonself … Consciousness is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, 
consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to 
affliction, and it would be possible to have it of 
consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness 
not be thus.' But because consciousness is nonself, consciousness 
leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of 
consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness 
not be thus.'

"What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?" -
"impermanent, venerable sir." - Is what is impermanent suffering or 
happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, 
suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: "This is 
mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - No, venerable sir."

"Is feeling permanent or impermanent? … Is perception permanent or 
impermanent? … Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent? … 
Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" - "Impermanent, 
venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?" -
"Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, 
and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: `This is mine, this I 
am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir."

"Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, 
future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior 
or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is 
with correct wisdom thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is 
not my self.'

"Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever 
… Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of 
consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal 
or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all 
consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom 
thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'

"Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences 
revulsion towards form revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards 
perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion 
towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes 
dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it 
is liberated there comes the knowledge: `It's liberated.' He 
understands: `Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what 
had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of 
being.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus delighted 
in the Blessed One's statement. And while this discourse was being 
spoken, the minds of the bhikkhus of the group of five were 
liberated from the taints by nonclinging.
===========================
Nyanatiloka Thera's Dictionary meaning:
"anattá: 'not-self', non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the 
last of the three characteristics of existence (ti-lakkhana, q.v.) 
The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and 
mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found 
anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-
existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. This 
is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a 
real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only 
really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure 
of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist 
doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems 
and religions, but the anattá-doctrine has been clearly and 
unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is 
known as the anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Whosoever 
has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not 
comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-
consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental 
phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or 
without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, 
i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right 
light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that 
experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil 
actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his 
personality that will enter into Nibbána, his personality that walks 
on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Vis.M. XVI:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."

"Whosoever is not clear with regard to the conditionally arisen 
phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are 
conditioned through ignorance, etc., he thinks that it is an ego 
that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, 
that comes to existence at rebirth .... that has the sense-
impression, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at 
rebirth again enters a new existence" (Vis.M. XVII, 117).

While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated that 
all formations (sabbe sankhárá) are impermanent and subject to 
suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic 
states that "all things are not-self" (sabbe dhammá anattá; M. 35, 
Dhp. 279). This is for emphasizing that the false view of an abiding 
self or substance is neither applicable to any 'formation' or 
conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbána, the Unconditioned Element 
(asankhatá dhátu).

The Anattá-lakkhana Sutta, the 'Discourse on the Characteristic of 
Not-self', was the second discourse after Enlightenment, preached by 
the Buddha to his first five disciples, who after hearing it 
attained to perfect Holiness (arahatta).

The contemplation of not-self (anattánupassaná) leads to the 
emptiness liberation (suññatá-vimokkha, s. vimokkha). Herein the 
faculty of wisdom (paññindriya) is outstanding, and one who attains 
in that way the path of Stream-entry is called a Dhamma-devotee 
(dhammánusári; s. ariya-puggala); at the next two stages of 
sainthood he becomes a vision-attainer (ditthippatta); and at the 
highest stage, i.e. Holiness, he is called 'liberated by wisdom' 
(paññá-vimutta)."
=========================
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> I come to conclude that the definition on "anatta" in 
Nyanatiloka's 
> dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught 
by 
> reflecting, comprehending/understanding what the Buddha taught in 
> Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59)
	
33308

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:03am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Larry,

Thanks for your comments too.

--- LBIDD@w... wrote: 
> Thanks for the quotations from the Dispeller of Delusion. Do you know of
> any discussion of the Four Noble Truths in terms of paramattha dhammas?
> I'm particularly interested in the second truth, "cause". 
...
S: The second truth is that of attachment as cause. I’m not sure exactly
what you are looking for, perhaps you can add more or:

Try:
1. Vism XV1, 13ff. See especially 61 and its reference to D.O. (we’ll
eventually get to XV1 in the study corner and if we continue with the D.O.
corner this will help too).

2. ADL - birth, death, kamma, lobha ??

3. Nina’s ‘Conditions’ - kamma condition, desicive support of proximity
etc
*****

Let me or others know if there is anything more specific as I don’t know
that this is very helpful. Nina may have other suggestions.

Really, I think that all the teachings are about the 4NT and in paramattha
terms - all the Abhidhamma.

4NT - in brief as I see it:
1. 5 khandhas
2. Lobha
3. Nibbana
4. Panna etc

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33309

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness

Hi Hans,

Welcome to DSG from me too.
--- Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> wrote: > > I have a bit of
a "beginner" question:
> 
> I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about
> developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really
> *do*
> anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it
> were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching
> determinism ...
....
I thought your opening questions were great ones and not “beginner”
questions at all. Well, all our questions here could be said to be
“beginner” questions, but what I mean to say is that it takes quite some
reflection and understanding to even be able to raise the “right”
questions;-).

Enough chatter. You’ve already recieved good replies. I’d also like you to
look at a very recent reply of Ken H’s to a similar question:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32995
Also, you may like to look at some posts put aside by the mods here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts

try: anatta - no control?, freewill, satipatthana in daily life or
anything else which seems relevant.

I think Htoo’s current series is also relevant - when it comes down to it,
there are only citta, cetasika and rupa ‘existing’ at this moment. Please
keep asking us all questions on this topic until satisfied. 

You may also like to know that posts can be read or searched here as well:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/

Thank you for so kindly sharing so much about your background and interest
too, Hans. Maybe you could mention sometime whereabouts you live in the
States. Also, I’m curious to know how you came to have copies of Nina’s
books on your shelves. 

Metta and glad to have you sharing your interest and understanding with
us,

Sarah
======



	
33310

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:48am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality

Hi Howard (& Christine), and now Victor too;-)

--- upasaka@a... wrote: 
> Did you ever have a small stone in your shoe which constantly
> rubbed 
> against your foot causing pain....
....
S: I thought it was a very good analogy and well told. 

I also think the extract on anatta from the dictionary is a very good one,
Chris...so persevere with Victor’s critique;-). We’re waving you on from
the sidelines (not yet opened your last post).

Perhaps at times of wondering whether ‘we’ are strong enough for the task
and so on, there is no appreciation of all those selfless elements arising
and falling away as ‘we’ wonder on, convinced of a personality and its
being a refuge in spite of what is read, considered and experienced to be
the opposite;-)

And Victor, if Mondayitis should be seen as it actually is thus with right
discernment etc, how should Tuesdayitis and Wednesdayitis be seen? Is it
really Mondayitis that is to be discerned as not mine etc or is it
possible that Mondayitis is merely a figment of the imagination and that
it’s the thinking at such times that is to be discerned rightly.....??

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33311

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:24am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor (& Larry),

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Nina and all,
> 
> So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following 
> discourses?
> 
> If so, how?
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya II.23
> Abhasita Sutta
> What Was Not Said
<...>
> Anguttara Nikaya II.25
> Neyyattha Sutta
> A Meaning to be Inferred
.....
I’d like to come in here too because I thought Jon & gave helpful and
direct responses, but you’ve just repeated your question. Let me try to
put it even more directly, taking on board the commentary assistance Nina
gave.

Those with wrong view who suggest the Buddha taught anything other than
the anattaness of paramattha dhammas slander the Tathagata and the
Dhamma.In other words, these brief suttas are about the understanding of
the Dhamma which can only be developed by vipassana. 

On another thread you stress (rightly) the importance of appreciating
MahaKaccayana’s elaboration of the Buddha’s words in MN18, Madhupindika
Sutta. The Buddha praised such elaborations by key disciples. Do you
agree? Those elaborations in conformity with the Buddha’s teachings came
to be known as the Buddha’s word. Do you agree? Even during the Buddha’s
time, such assistance was necessary for many. Thus we have extensive
amounts of commentary included in the Pali Canon and further commentaries
(inc. those by Maha Kaccayana) and the Abhidhamma included for elucidation
since the First council. Any disagreement?

So, the further question is, without the assistance of MahaKaccayana and
the other key disciples like Sariputta, Ananda and so on, can we really
appreciate what is a slandering of the Tathagata and what is not? Without
the Abhidhamma and vipassana, is it possible to know what right view and
wrong view are? Also see on another thread*

(BTW, Hasituppada, good to read your comments too....;-)).
*****
Larry, I think it depends also on the individual and accumulations as to
how much the meaning needs to be drawn out. I know for myself, I need all
the assistance I can get;-)

This is a quote I gave recently from the Netti, 53 (The Guide, PTS, also
attributed to Maha-Kaccaana:

“*How the Teaching is variously presented*

53. Herein. the Blessed One explains by letters, displays by
terms,divulges by phrases, analyses by moods, exhibits by linguistics, and
describes by demonstrations.

Herein, the Blessed One condenses (uggha.teti) by letters and terms, he
expands (vipa~ncayati) by phrases and moods, he details by linguistics and
demonstations.

Herein, condensing is the beginning, expanding is the middle, and
detailing is the end.

This True Idea and Outguiding (Discipline), when it is condensed, guides
out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what is 
condensed; hence ‘good in the beginning’ is said. When expanded it
guides out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what
is expanded; hence ‘good in the middle’ is said. When detailed it guides
out (disciplines) the [type of] person who is guidable; hence ‘good in the
end’ is said.
<...>
“That is why the Blessed One said <Bhikkhus, I shall teach you a True Idea
that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end,
with its own meaning and its own phrasing; I shall display a Divine Life
that is entirely perfect and pure>”
****
Metta,

Sarah
*[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 33211), I
think we can rightly say that until the attainment of arahantship, ‘there
is always ignorance’. The anusaya (latent tendency)of ignorance lies
‘dormant’ in each citta and is accumulated from citta to citta, even when
it doesn’t manifest. I also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold
path factors being ‘fabrications’ ‘leading to the cessation of craving,
thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications’.]
=======


	
33312

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:51am
Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Rob 

> I'm so fascinated by reading about 
> kusala 
> > and akusala etc that I am still not examining them in the moment 
as 
> > much as I will one day soon. 
> 
> =====

Rob :> One day soon? Is there something that has to happen before 
you feel 
> that you are ready to start examining the current moment more 
> frequently?

Ph: Nothing needs to happen, but not forcing anything. When I 
say "one day soon" it is an inkling of what's to come rather than 
stating an intention. The more I study and the more I discuss here, 
and more importantly, the more I have days like I've been having 
recently - with a lot of examination - the more I'll be examining. 
Don't worry - it's not like I'm putting it off until I finish the 
tough chapters in "Abhidhamma in Daily Life"! :) But it's true that 
I'm attached to the intellectual aspect of understanding what's laid 
out in there - and this intellectual attachment is something I'll 
have to let go of gradually in order to examine realities. I'm sure 
it's something that everyone here has gone through at some point. 
Conceit at being able to understand Abhidhamma, attachment to the 
terminology etc....
Thank you for you encouragement not to put it off. As Christine 
puts it "the danger is that you think you have too much time." I 
think about that line every day these days - even as I write "no 
hurry" or "no forcing things." Middle way, dontcha know. 


Ph: > > Study > Practice > Realization, right? 
> 
R:> Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna
>

Ph: Does this progression means that Samadhi is a necessary 
precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without 
Samadhi first? If I recally correctly, Samadhi is one-pointed 
concentration. Of course we need to have concentration on a rupa or 
nama before panna related to it can arise. 

I think you place more emphasis on meditation than some people 
here. (I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is seen 
as a self-driven activity. Why can't meditation arise in a 
conditioned way the same way studying or discussing does?) Does the 
place of meditation in your practice lead to Samadhi having a more 
central place in this progression than it would for someone who 
doesn't mediate? 

Sila is morality, the precepts. Does the above progression means 
that we leave behind the need to think about the precepts once we 
develop Panna? Does right understanding make the precepts redundant? 
i.e Are precepts more vital for those who haven't cultivated panna 
yet and less vital for those that have? 


Metta,
Phil
	
33314

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Christine,

Let me point out the misrepresentation in the definition:

"non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three 
characteristics of existence.
The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and 
mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found 
anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-
existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance."

The definition misrepresents what the Buddha taught as it assumes 
self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding 
substance. 

The Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, 
consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right 
dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my 
self."

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello Victor, all,
> I looked at the Anattalakkhana sutta and Nyanatiloka's dictionary 
> definition but could not find anything in dictionary definition 
that 
> was misleading or misrepresented what the Buddha taught. I have 
> included both below - could you (or anyone) point out for me the 
> misrepresentations that are being alluded to please? 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
> =========================================================
> III. The Book of the Aggregates (Khandhavagga) 22. Khandhasamyutta 
> 59 (7) The Characteristic of Nonself (Bhikkhu Bodhi)
> 
> Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at 
> Baaraanasii in the Deer Park at Isipatana. [note 90] There the 
> Blessed One addressed the Bhikkhus of the group of five thus:
> 
> "Bhikkhus!"
> "Venerable sir!" those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:
> "Bhikkhus, form is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, form were self, this 
> form would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to 
have 
> it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus; 
> But because form is nonself, form leads to affliction, and it is 
not 
> possible to have it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not 
> be thus.' [note 91]
> 
> "Feeling is nonself … Perception is nonself … Volitional 
formations 
> are nonself … Consciousness is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, 
> consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to 
> affliction, and it would be possible to have it of 
> consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness 
> not be thus.' But because consciousness is nonself, consciousness 
> leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of 
> consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness 
> not be thus.'
> 
> "What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?" -
> "impermanent, venerable sir." - Is what is impermanent suffering 
or 
> happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is 
impermanent, 
> suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: "This is 
> mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - No, venerable sir."
> 
> "Is feeling permanent or impermanent? … Is perception permanent or 
> impermanent? … Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent? 
… 
> Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" - "Impermanent, 
> venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent suffering or 
happiness?" -
> "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, 
> and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: `This is mine, this 
I 
> am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir."
> 
> "Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, 
> future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, 
inferior 
> or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is 
> with correct wisdom thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this 
is 
> not my self.'
> 
> "Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception 
whatsoever 
> … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of 
> consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, 
internal 
> or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, 
all 
> consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom 
> thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'
> 
> "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences 
> revulsion towards form revulsion towards feeling, revulsion 
towards 
> perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion 
> towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes 
> dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it 
> is liberated there comes the knowledge: `It's liberated.' He 
> understands: `Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, 
what 
> had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of 
> being.'"
> 
> That is what the Blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus 
delighted 
> in the Blessed One's statement. And while this discourse was being 
> spoken, the minds of the bhikkhus of the group of five were 
> liberated from the taints by nonclinging.
> ===========================
> Nyanatiloka Thera's Dictionary meaning:
> "anattá: 'not-self', non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the 
> last of the three characteristics of existence (ti-lakkhana, q.v.) 
> The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and 
> mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found 
> anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-
> existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. 
This 
> is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a 
> real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the 
only 
> really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure 
> of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining 
Buddhist 
> doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems 
> and religions, but the anattá-doctrine has been clearly and 
> unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is 
> known as the anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Whosoever 
> has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does 
not 
> comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-
> consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental 
> phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or 
> without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, 
> i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the 
right 
> light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that 
> experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil 
> actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his 
> personality that will enter into Nibbána, his personality that 
walks 
> on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Vis.M. XVI:
> 
> "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
> The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
> Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it;
> The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."
> 
> "Whosoever is not clear with regard to the conditionally arisen 
> phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are 
> conditioned through ignorance, etc., he thinks that it is an ego 
> that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to 
act, 
> that comes to existence at rebirth .... that has the sense-
> impression, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and 
at 
> rebirth again enters a new existence" (Vis.M. XVII, 117).
> 
> While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated 
that 
> all formations (sabbe sankhárá) are impermanent and subject to 
> suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic 
> states that "all things are not-self" (sabbe dhammá anattá; M. 35, 
> Dhp. 279). This is for emphasizing that the false view of an 
abiding 
> self or substance is neither applicable to any 'formation' or 
> conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbána, the Unconditioned Element 
> (asankhatá dhátu).
> 
> The Anattá-lakkhana Sutta, the 'Discourse on the Characteristic of 
> Not-self', was the second discourse after Enlightenment, preached 
by 
> the Buddha to his first five disciples, who after hearing it 
> attained to perfect Holiness (arahatta).
> 
> The contemplation of not-self (anattánupassaná) leads to the 
> emptiness liberation (suññatá-vimokkha, s. vimokkha). Herein the 
> faculty of wisdom (paññindriya) is outstanding, and one who 
attains 
> in that way the path of Stream-entry is called a Dhamma-devotee 
> (dhammánusári; s. ariya-puggala); at the next two stages of 
> sainthood he becomes a vision-attainer (ditthippatta); and at the 
> highest stage, i.e. Holiness, he is called 'liberated by wisdom' 
> (paññá-vimutta)."
> =========================
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> > I come to conclude that the definition on "anatta" in 
> Nyanatiloka's 
> > dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha 
taught 
> by 
> > reflecting, comprehending/understanding what the Buddha taught 
in 
> > Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59)
	
33315

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:11am
Subject: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Sarah,

So are you saying that there is no contradiction between what the 
Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated in 
Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha?

Is birth dukkha or not?

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Sorry for delays on this thread.
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah and all,
> > 
> > In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth 
is 
> > dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in 
Sammohavinodani, 
> > it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not 
itself 
> > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha.
> .....
> S: (Most the quotes I gave can also be found in the Visuddhimagga 
chXV1,
> 32f - I tend to quote from the Sammohavinodani simply because it's 
a
> smaller book to take out with me and mark up and s'times it gives 
the
> Pali).
> 
> I don't think there's any contradiction.
> 
> The quotes said that birth is not itself suffering, `but by being 
the
> basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering'.
> 
> Sammohavinodani
> 517 
> `There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five 
aggregates [as
> objects] of clinging are suffering.'
> 
> 519
> "All suffering that follows birth
> here listed, and all that as well
> Not listed, would not come to be
> without these [aggregates of clinging].
> Therefore these aggregates of clinging
> have been described in short as pain
> By him, the greatest of the sages,
> who taught the end of suffering."
> 
> In other words, without birth (patisandhi citta) as condition, 
there would
> be not be the conditions for the subsequent rising and falling 
away of
> khandhas, the aggregates of clinging, inherently dukkha.
> RobM gave a very useful and detailed analysis from U Silananda on 
the
> conditions involved in D.O. For the last link, he wrote:
> 
> >11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, 
pain, 
> grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270]
> 
> Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth 
through kamma
> and decisive support condition.
> 
> Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, 
pain,
> grief and despair through decisive support condition.<
> *****
> This is what is meant by birth as `basis' for suffering by being 
the
> essential condition.
> 
> I think it's just the same as that expressed in the suttas. 
Yesterday, I
> was discussing SN12:64 with Connie, `If there is Lust'. It reads:
> 
> "Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there 
is
> future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, 
aging, and
> death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair."
> 
> Side note - This morning I was worried when I heard that our 
laundry had
> been lost by local dry-cleaners and had obsessed about the value 
and
> diffiulties of replacement when they said it had been stolen. 
Eventually
> it was found and I knew the salesgirl had been through an anxious 
time, so
> I took her a cake on my way home to celebrate. When I got home, I 
got a
> call to say that a very close friend and former neighbour has just 
been
> diagnosed (out of the blue) with stage3 tonsil cancer, spread to 
the lymph
> nodes. He's a strong, super-fit guy & Jon's age. Truly, we never 
know what
> we'll hear or see or proliferate about next. I'm rather distracted 
as I
> write here, try to assist our friend as I can and feeling rather
> overwhelmed with sorrow all at the same time. Truly, birth is a 
condition
> for all this.....
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> =======
> 
> 
> 
	
33316

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:31am
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Sarah,

Jon and Nina did not have to respond to my questions. However, if 
they do, I expect that they come up with a straightforward answer to 
the question. Both Jon and Nina did not provide a straightforward 
answer to the question. If they do, then the answer are false and 
convoluted such that it misrepresents the discourses.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor (& Larry),
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Nina and all,
> > 
> > So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following 
> > discourses?
> > 
> > If so, how?
> > 
> > Anguttara Nikaya II.23
> > Abhasita Sutta
> > What Was Not Said
> <...>
> > Anguttara Nikaya II.25
> > Neyyattha Sutta
> > A Meaning to be Inferred
> .....
> I'd like to come in here too because I thought Jon & gave helpful 
and
> direct responses, but you've just repeated your question. Let me 
try to
> put it even more directly, taking on board the commentary 
assistance Nina
> gave.
> 
> Those with wrong view who suggest the Buddha taught anything other 
than
> the anattaness of paramattha dhammas slander the Tathagata and the
> Dhamma.In other words, these brief suttas are about the 
understanding of
> the Dhamma which can only be developed by vipassana. 
> 
> On another thread you stress (rightly) the importance of 
appreciating
> MahaKaccayana's elaboration of the Buddha's words in MN18, 
Madhupindika
> Sutta. The Buddha praised such elaborations by key disciples. Do 
you
> agree? Those elaborations in conformity with the Buddha's 
teachings came
> to be known as the Buddha's word. Do you agree? Even during the 
Buddha's
> time, such assistance was necessary for many. Thus we have 
extensive
> amounts of commentary included in the Pali Canon and further 
commentaries
> (inc. those by Maha Kaccayana) and the Abhidhamma included for 
elucidation
> since the First council. Any disagreement?
> 
> So, the further question is, without the assistance of 
MahaKaccayana and
> the other key disciples like Sariputta, Ananda and so on, can we 
really
> appreciate what is a slandering of the Tathagata and what is not? 
Without
> the Abhidhamma and vipassana, is it possible to know what right 
view and
> wrong view are? Also see on another thread*
> 
> (BTW, Hasituppada, good to read your comments too....;-)).
> *****
> Larry, I think it depends also on the individual and accumulations 
as to
> how much the meaning needs to be drawn out. I know for myself, I 
need all
> the assistance I can get;-)
> 
> This is a quote I gave recently from the Netti, 53 (The Guide, 
PTS, also
> attributed to Maha-Kaccaana:
> 
> "*How the Teaching is variously presented*
> 
> 53. Herein. the Blessed One explains by letters, displays by
> terms,divulges by phrases, analyses by moods, exhibits by 
linguistics, and
> describes by demonstrations.
> 
> Herein, the Blessed One condenses (uggha.teti) by letters and 
terms, he
> expands (vipa~ncayati) by phrases and moods, he details by 
linguistics and
> demonstations.
> 
> Herein, condensing is the beginning, expanding is the middle, and
> detailing is the end.
> 
> This True Idea and Outguiding (Discipline), when it is condensed, 
guides
> out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what 
is 
> condensed; hence `good in the beginning' is said. When expanded 
it
> guides out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge 
by what
> is expanded; hence `good in the middle' is said. When detailed it 
guides
> out (disciplines) the [type of] person who is guidable; 
hence `good in the
> end' is said.
> <...>
> "That is why the Blessed One said <Bhikkhus, I shall teach you a 
True Idea
> that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the 
end,
> with its own meaning and its own phrasing; I shall display a 
Divine Life
> that is entirely perfect and pure>"
> ****
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 
33211), I
> think we can rightly say that until the attainment of 
arahantship, `there
> is always ignorance'. The anusaya (latent tendency)of ignorance 
lies
> `dormant' in each citta and is accumulated from citta to citta, 
even when
> it doesn't manifest. I also agreed with your last comments about 
the 8fold
> path factors being `fabrications' `leading to the cessation of 
craving,
> thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications'.]
> =======
> 
> 
> 
	
33317

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:36am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Hi, Sarah (and Jack) -

In a message dated 5/25/04 4:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> S: On the contrary, I understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’, ‘sabbe sankhara
> dukkha’ to mean that all conditioned dhammas, regardless of worldling or
> non-worldling status, as being dukkha because of their impermanence,
> ‘because of being oppressed by rise and fall’ and not worth clinging to at
> all.
> 
=======================
What is *inherently* wrong with rising and falling? My answer: 
NOTHING! But that doesn't mean that phenomena that won't hold still are worthy of 
being grasped at. Of course they are not. And attempting to grasp them, to hold 
onto them and not let them go, is to suffer. Sankhata dhamma are *conditions* 
for unhappiness, but, as you well know, more than one condition is required for 
the arising of a dhamma, and in the case of mental pain, the impermanence of 
dhammas isn't enough to constitute a cause - there must also be craving or 
grasping. With the end of the three poisons, dukkha ceases, though dhammas, all 
unworthy of being grasped at, continue to rise and fall.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33318

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/25/04 8:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Christine,
> 
> Let me point out the misrepresentation in the definition:
> 
> "non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three 
> characteristics of existence.
> The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and 
> mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found 
> anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-
> existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance."
> 
> The definition misrepresents what the Buddha taught as it assumes 
> self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding 
> substance. 
> 
-----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
It seems to me, and I mentioned this before, a long time ago, that you 
conflate definition of a term with the assertion of the existence of an 
actual referent for that term. An example: Were I to promulgate a no-unicorn 
teaching to the effect that "Nowhere, neither on this planet nor off, and at no 
time, is there or has there ever been anything that in the ultimate sense could be 
regarded as an animal that is in all respects a horse except for having a 
single horn emerging from its forehead," would I be assuming a unicorn as a 
existent single-horned horse? I would not. What, in fact, I would be doing would be 
defining how I use the term 'unicorn' and indicating that it is an empty 
concept. To say there is no unicorn does *not* assume the existence of a unicorn, 
it does the opposite. And to teach that "neither within the bodily and mental 
phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the 
ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or 
any other abiding substance" is not to assume "self as a self-existing real 
ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." It is merely to *define* what 
is meant by the term 'self', and to state that this, as defined, is an empty 
concept, without actual referent; i.e., that nowhere is any such thing to be 
found. Without defining ones terms, using them is only an act of apparent, but 
not actual, communication. 
-------------------------------------------------


> 
> The Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, 
> consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right 
> dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my 
> self."
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
=========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33319

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Howard,

Let go the assumption of unicorn (or of pink elephent for that 
matter). Why assume a unicorn in the first place?

Again, the Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, 
fabrications, consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is 
with right dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. 
This is not my self."

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/25/04 8:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > Hi Christine,
> > 
> > Let me point out the misrepresentation in the definition:
> > 
> > "non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three 
> > characteristics of existence.
> > The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and 
> > mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found 
> > anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-
> > existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance."
> > 
> > The definition misrepresents what the Buddha taught as it 
assumes 
> > self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other 
abiding 
> > substance. 
> > 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> It seems to me, and I mentioned this before, a long time 
ago, that you 
> conflate definition of a term with the assertion of the existence 
of an 
> actual referent for that term. An example: Were I to promulgate a 
no-unicorn 
> teaching to the effect that "Nowhere, neither on this planet nor 
off, and at no 
> time, is there or has there ever been anything that in the 
ultimate sense could be 
> regarded as an animal that is in all respects a horse except for 
having a 
> single horn emerging from its forehead," would I be assuming a 
unicorn as a 
> existent single-horned horse? I would not. What, in fact, I would 
be doing would be 
> defining how I use the term 'unicorn' and indicating that it is an 
empty 
> concept. To say there is no unicorn does *not* assume the 
existence of a unicorn, 
> it does the opposite. And to teach that "neither within the bodily 
and mental 
> phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything 
that in the 
> ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-
entity, soul or 
> any other abiding substance" is not to assume "self as a self-
existing real 
> ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." It is merely to 
*define* what 
> is meant by the term 'self', and to state that this, as defined, 
is an empty 
> concept, without actual referent; i.e., that nowhere is any such 
thing to be 
> found. Without defining ones terms, using them is only an act of 
apparent, but 
> not actual, communication. 
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> > 
> > The Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, 
> > consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right 
> > dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is 
not my 
> > self."
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> > 
> =========================
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33320

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:38am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/25/04 9:22:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> 
> Let go the assumption of unicorn (or of pink elephent for that 
> matter). Why assume a unicorn in the first place?
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I *don't* assume a unicorn in the first place. I simply make precise 
the meaning of the term. This is the point: There is an essential difference 
between defining a term, T, and asserting that there exist T's. A physicist, for 
example, may define an "X-particle" to be a physically measurable phenomenon 
satisfying a list of conditions. He may do so because such a phenomenon would 
serve to easily explain various observed events. A mathematical physicist 
*might*, now that he has a precise definition available, go on to prove that there 
are no X-particles. Or an experimental physicist, given the precise 
definition, might go on to show that certain observed phenomena rule out the possible 
existence of X-particles. In the history of science and mathematics there have 
been many instances of this. The concept of 'ether' is one that immediately 
occurs to me. Of course, sometimes the concepts defined are not empty. 
Neutrinos, quarks, etc come to mind.
-----------------------------------------------------

> 
> Again, the Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, 
> fabrications, consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is 
> with right dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. 
> This is not my self."
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
==========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33321

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:54am
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Sarah,

Let me add a bit more.

Jon did not answer the question at all. And I did not put forth the 
question: 
Are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following discourses?

If so, how?

Anguttara Nikaya II.23
Abhasita Sutta
What Was Not Said

Anguttara Nikaya II.25
Neyyattha Sutta
A Meaning to be Inferred

to him. After all Jon did not say that

"In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied."


Nina did not answer the question either. She responded to Jon's 
post, but not the message where I asked her the questions above. 

I asked the questions again, but it is ok with me if she does not 
want to respond to it directly and straightforwardly.

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Jon and Nina did not have to respond to my questions. However, if 
> they do, I expect that they come up with a straightforward answer 
to 
> the question. Both Jon and Nina did not provide a straightforward 
> answer to the question. If they do, then the answer are false and 
> convoluted such that it misrepresents the discourses.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi Victor (& Larry),
> > 
> > --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Nina and all,
> > > 
> > > So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following 
> > > discourses?
> > > 
> > > If so, how?
> > > 
> > > Anguttara Nikaya II.23
> > > Abhasita Sutta
> > > What Was Not Said
> > <...>
> > > Anguttara Nikaya II.25
> > > Neyyattha Sutta
> > > A Meaning to be Inferred
> > .....
> > I'd like to come in here too because I thought Jon & gave 
helpful 
> and
> > direct responses, but you've just repeated your question. Let me 
> try to
> > put it even more directly, taking on board the commentary 
> assistance Nina
> > gave.
[snip]
	
33322

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:59am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Howard,

Your response is getting convoluted and entangled.

Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not 
self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right dicernment 
thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self."


Metta,
Victor



--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/25/04 9:22:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > Hi Howard,
> > 
> > Let go the assumption of unicorn (or of pink elephent for that 
> > matter). Why assume a unicorn in the first place?
> > 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> I *don't* assume a unicorn in the first place. I simply 
make precise 
> the meaning of the term. This is the point: There is an essential 
difference 
> between defining a term, T, and asserting that there exist T's. A 
physicist, for 
> example, may define an "X-particle" to be a physically measurable 
phenomenon 
> satisfying a list of conditions. He may do so because such a 
phenomenon would 
> serve to easily explain various observed events. A mathematical 
physicist 
> *might*, now that he has a precise definition available, go on to 
prove that there 
> are no X-particles. Or an experimental physicist, given the 
precise 
> definition, might go on to show that certain observed phenomena 
rule out the possible 
> existence of X-particles. In the history of science and 
mathematics there have 
> been many instances of this. The concept of 'ether' is one that 
immediately 
> occurs to me. Of course, sometimes the concepts defined are not 
empty. 
> Neutrinos, quarks, etc come to mind.
> -----------------------------------------------------
[snip]
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33323

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/25/04 10:01:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> Your response is getting convoluted and entangled.
> 
-------------------------------------------
Howard:
Only because I'm standing on my head to try to get you to understand 
my point. Simple didn't work, so I went to complex. I see that doesn't work 
either. So I give up.
-----------------------------------------------------


> 
> Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not 
> self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right dicernment 
> thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self."
> 
----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Yes - I know, Victor. And because I know what is meant by the term 
'self', I understand it.
---------------------------------------------------

> 
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
===========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33324

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 8:19am
Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

Hi Mike, Jon and all

Fiddling around in the Useful Posts (wondering what Cetana is all 
about) came across this exchange between Mike and Jon from July of 
2001 (#7214).

--- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote: > Just thought I'd add this to
> the thread:
> > 
> > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with
> > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action,
> > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, &
> > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even
> > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining
> > results. If they follow the holy life even when having
> > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results.
> > If they follow the holy life even when both having
> > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable
> > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life
> > even when neither having made a wish nor having made
> > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is
> > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining
> > results. 
> > 
> > Bhumija Sutta
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html
> > 
> > mike


Jon : > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference 
to 'making a wish'
> might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet.
> 
> Jon


Ph: A few years down the road any further insight on the meaning 
of "wish?" 

For me this is saying that it doesn't matter whether we set 
intentions or not -"results" will arise - or not arise- in a 
conditioned way. Which may be something to do with Cetana. I gather 
Cetana is not intention in the conventional understanding of the word 
but a universal cetasika that arises with every citta in a condioned 
way. I have only begun to learn about it what it is exactly. 

And what does "obtaining results" mean exactly? Eradication of 
defilements, I guess. Otherwise "obtaining results" sounds so 
materialistic. 



Metta,
Phil
	
33325

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 8:26am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Howard,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/25/04 10:01:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > 
> > Hi Howard,
> > 
> > Your response is getting convoluted and entangled.
> > 
> -------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Only because I'm standing on my head to try to get you to 
understand 
> my point. Simple didn't work, so I went to complex. I see that 
doesn't work 
> either. So I give up.



And it is better to give up your assumption of what self is and the 
entanglement and convolution that come with it




> 
> 
> > 
> > Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not 
> > self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right dicernment 
> > thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self."
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> Yes - I know, Victor. And because I know what is meant by 
the term 
> 'self', I understand it.



Not with your assumption of what self is.



> With metta,
> Howard

Metta,
Victor
	
33326

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/25/04 11:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> And it is better to give up your assumption of what self is and the 
> entanglement and convolution that come with it
> 
========================
I make no *assumption* of what self is. There is merely a definition 
of the word 'self'. To *assume* that a self is something or other is to assume 
there *is* a self. I make no such assumption. To define what the word 'self' 
means is something entirely different - it simply enables communication. 
To define a 'tree' is not to assume that trees exist. To define 
'vampire' and 'banshee' and 'werewolf' is not to assume that vampires, banshees, and 
werewolves exist. To define one's terms is merely to make communication 
possible.
But, hey, I *did* say "I give up." I guess it is a teacher's 
defilement to want to have people understand what s/he is talking about. (Agreement, 
however, isn't a requirement.)

With metta,
Howard



/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33327

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Howard,

But you do make assumption of what self is with your definition of 
the word 'self' as an empty concept, without actual referent; i.e., 
that nowhere is any such thing to be found.

In your case you assume that self as something not to be found 
anywhere, as you've claimed before that there is no self.

What you are trying to convey to me is itself entangled/convoluted 
and it comes out as entangled/convoluted.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/25/04 11:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > And it is better to give up your assumption of what self is and 
the 
> > entanglement and convolution that come with it
> > 
> ========================
> I make no *assumption* of what self is. There is merely a 
definition 
> of the word 'self'. To *assume* that a self is something or other 
is to assume 
> there *is* a self. I make no such assumption. To define what the 
word 'self' 
> means is something entirely different - it simply enables 
communication. 
> To define a 'tree' is not to assume that trees exist. To 
define 
> 'vampire' and 'banshee' and 'werewolf' is not to assume that 
vampires, banshees, and 
> werewolves exist. To define one's terms is merely to make 
communication 
> possible.
> But, hey, I *did* say "I give up." I guess it is a 
teacher's 
> defilement to want to have people understand what s/he is talking 
about. (Agreement, 
> however, isn't a requirement.)
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33328

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:33am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

In a message dated 5/25/04 6:05:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... 
writes:
> S: On the contrary, I understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’, ‘sabbe sankhara
> dukkha’ to mean that all conditioned dhammas, regardless of worldling or
> non-worldling status, as being dukkha because of their impermanence,
> ‘because of being oppressed by rise and fall’ and not worth clinging to at
> all.
> 
=======================
What is *inherently* wrong with rising and falling? My answer: 
NOTHING! But that doesn't mean that phenomena that won't hold still are 
worthy of 
being grasped at. Of course they are not. And attempting to grasp them, to 
hold 
onto them and not let them go, is to suffer. Sankhata dhamma are *conditions* 
for unhappiness, but, as you well know, more than one condition is required 
for 
the arising of a dhamma, and in the case of mental pain, the impermanence of 
dhammas isn't enough to constitute a cause - there must also be craving or 
grasping. With the end of the three poisons, dukkha ceases, though dhammas, 
all 
unworthy of being grasped at, continue to rise and fall.
======
Sarah and Howard,

My point exactly. 

jack


	
33329

From: Hans Van Slooten <hans@h...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:37am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness

Hi Sarah,

> Hi Hans,
>
> Welcome to DSG from me too.
>
.. snip ..

> Thank you for so kindly sharing so much about your background and interest
> too, Hans. Maybe you could mention sometime whereabouts you live in the
> States. Also, I'm curious to know how you came to have copies of Nina's
> books on your shelves.
>

I'm currently living in Chicago (right downtown, basically), and have been
for the past few years. I'm originally from Minnesota, though.

As to how I found Nina's books, I believe I first bought "Abhidhamma in
Daily Life" when I was hunting for material a few months ago that could
introduce me to Abhidhamma study. I had initially bought "A Comprehensive
Manual of Abhidhamma" translated by Bhikku Bodhi, however, I found this book
fairly difficult to follow. Then, I found A.D.L. a bit difficult, as well.
:) But, I noticed that Nina mentioned in ADL that you should read BDL
before ADL, so I decided to pick a copy of that, and eureka! everything
started to make a little more sense (sort of :).

So, I kind of backed into it. That tends to happen to me a lot. I bite off
more than I can chew and end up going to easier and easier texts until I
find one that is clear, and then work my way back to the other texts. It
explains why I have a copy of the Visuddhimagga on my shelf that is barely
used.

Well, I'll stop chattering now and let everyone get back to more important
things.

Regards,
Hans
	
33330

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52am
Subject: correction Tiika vis. 75

correction Tiika Vis. 75
At the end of the Tiika text, I have corrected: instead of nutrition:
temperature (utu):
Here sound is included and thus thirteen kinds of materiality originated by
temperature are materiality born of temperature.
N:Sound is originated by citta or by temperature or heat, not by nutrition.
Nina.
	
33331

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3

It is a gain to know at least when we cling to an underlying notion of self,
no matter what our actions are, even when we perform kusala. Acharn Sujin
asked us whether it is not true that we often perform kusala for our own
sake. She said, ³If one understands the teachings and there is less
attachment to the self you think of the others more than of yourself. You
think of helping others in deed and speech at any time.²
It may seem that other religions also teach this and that there is nothing
special in her words. However, the Buddha taught the development of
understanding of realities and this is the condition to become more detached
from the idea of self. This understanding can inspire to help others, even
when one formerly was always inclined to say: not now, it is not convenient
now. As we read in the Sutta, we should do noble deeds by body, speech and
mind and this includes mental development, bhåvana. Learning about the
different cittas that arise and that motivate our deeds is mental
development. Mental development is the study of the Dhamma, the explanation
of it to others, the development of calm and the development of vipassanå.
We discussed our problems concerning our life with my father, and we
mentioned that he grumbles and finds fault with us. Acharn Sujin said that
kusala can be purer when we are not engaged in thinking about what others do
or say. She said, ³We love him, but we should not think, does he love me? We
show affection but we do not mind about the result.² Satipaììhåna can be a
condition for having more mettå. When we think all the time of persons we
may be partial, we may have preferences for certain persons, or we may have
expectations about their attitude towards us and at such moments there is no
mettå. She explained that so long as there is ³I², the cycle of birth and
death will continue.
One of our friends remarked that her father was always annoyed with her and
often uttered harsh speech. She said that she tried to understand his
accumulated tendencies, which causes him to be in that way. She thought of
him as a giver, as a teacher. She said that a father who always grumbles can
be our teacher since he reminds us to investigate more our own cittas.
Patience is one of the perfections that should be accumulated so that
enlightenment can be attained. Acharn Sujin said that at each moment there
is an opportunity for patience, and she asked how it could otherwise be
accumulated. 
*****
Nina
	
33332

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness

In a message dated 5/25/04 10:38:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hans@h... writes:
I'm currently living in Chicago (right downtown, basically), and have been
for the past few years. I'm originally from Minnesota, though.
==
Hi, Hans,

I'm your neighbor in Naperville.

jack


	
33333

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: In Laws

Dear Philip,
I would like to encourage you to kusala when meeting "dysfunctional
in-laws'. You know what, it helps just to think of phenomena arising because
of conditions. You do not know what will happen ahead of time. Do not think
so much of persons. There is seeing, visible object, hearing, sound,
thinking cittas, lobha, dosa, metta, is that not enough? And they all have
conditions for their arising, you cannot possibly direct their arising.
After your visit you may well think: O, it went much better than I thought.
It depends on the citta that arises. Not on other people.
Let me know how it went.
Nina. 
op 25-05-2004 02:02 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see
> the dysfunctional in-laws.
	
33334

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:37am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 )

Htoo Naing

Dear Htoo, I am liking this current teaching series very much. 
I would like to ask one question. Is it correct to understand 
citta as "one-thing". One reality as you say. There is only one-
kind of citta, but it is flavored by a mixture of particular 
cetasikas. There are 89 flavors of citta. One citta, many 
cetasikas? Citta is "named" depending on the kind of cetasikas it 
carries? 

Thanks carl
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Carl,

Thanks for your message. I am just trying to present Dhamma as simple 
as possible. I must say this series is not a teaching series. But 
just discussions.

Citta can never be separated from co-arising cetasikas. But in terms 
of its character, citta is the only nature that knows the object. No 
other realities can know the object. That is why I said there is one 
kind of citta. 

In 89 cittas, there are 8 lobha mula cittas or attachment-rooted 
consciousness. These cittas have this name because they are 
accompanied by lobha cetasika.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33335

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:39am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 )

Thanks carl

I agree with you that it is an excellent series.
> 
> I might be able to help you on your question. In Abhidhamma, the 
> term "citta" has two meanings:
> 1. Consciousness / awareness - one type
> 2. Mental state consisting of consciousness / awareness plus 
> cetasikas (mental factors) - 89 or 121 types, depending on how you 
> count
> 
> One could say citta = citta + cetasikas
> 
> Where the citta to the left of the = is mental state and the citta 
to 
> the right of the = is consciousness.
> 
> Hope that this helps.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Rob M,

Thanks for your message. Yes, it is. Your further comments are very 
good and make a good sense.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	

 	 

	
33336

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 7:45am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/25/04 1:05:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> 
> But you do make assumption of what self is with your definition of 
> the word 'self' as an empty concept, without actual referent; i.e., 
> that nowhere is any such thing to be found.
> 
> In your case you assume that self as something not to be found 
> anywhere, as you've claimed before that there is no self.
> 
> What you are trying to convey to me is itself entangled/convoluted 
> and it comes out as entangled/convoluted.
> 
> Metta,
> 
==========================
Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? 
If you do not tell me or anyone what you mean by 'self' or by 'not-self', then 
in saying "Every dhamma is not-self" you have not communicated anything. If 
two people agree on the meaning of a term, then they can communicate using 
that term. If not, then not.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33337

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:58am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 007 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There are many classifications of citta. The first one has been 
discussed in the previous post. From the message, all new words have 
been explained. With repeatition, these Pali words will become 
familiar with continuing reading. But I may repeat some explanation 
so that new readers can grasp the idea well.

There are 31 planes of existence. They are also called 31 realms. In 
Pali it is called bhumi. Bhumi is where sattas or beings with the 
same characters live and enjoy and dwell. These 31 realms will be 
explained in coming posts. But currently citta has been classified 
according to the realms where they most frequently arise.

I will repeat them here. There are 89 cittas. They are 54 kamavacara 
cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas, 12 arupavacara cittas, and 8 lokuttara 
cittas. If lokuttara cittas arise with jhanas, there will be 40 
lokuttara cittas and there will be 121 cittas in total.

Here there are 4 new Pali words. If they are repeatedly used, they 
will be familiar with readers. They are kamavacara, rupavacara, 
arupavacara and lokuttara. Avacara means 'most frequently arising'. 
Kama are sensual things like rupa or sight ( colours ), sound, smell, 
taste, touch and related thoughts. But kama in kamavacara means kama 
bhumi. So do other 2 words rupavacara and arupavacara. Rupa in 
rupavacara means rupa brahma bhumi and arupa in arupavacara means 
arupa brahma bhumi.

Lokuttara comprises 'loka' and 'uttara'. Loka here means all of kama 
loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka that is three lokas. Kama loka is all 
kama bhumis or sensual sphere, rupa loka is fine material sphere or 
rupa brahma bhumis, and arupa loka is immaterial sphere or arupa 
brahma bhmuis. Lokuttara is beyond all these three lokas and 
lokuttara always excels lokas. Uttara means 'great', 'superior 
to', 'beyond something'. So lokuttara always excels other cittas.

Kamavacara cittas may be simply called kama cittas. By the same 
token, rupavacara may be called rupa cittas, and arupavacara may be 
called arupa cittas. But lokuttara citta is always called lokuttara 
cittas or simply 'lokuttara'. Sometimes they may be refered to 
as 'lokuttara dhamma'.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33338

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 0:19pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hello Victor, Howard, and all,

I was peacefully sleeping in another time-zone while the two of you 
were having the discussion about 'self'. Your discussions (read 
through in one sitting) are illuminating, particularly when they 
echo, literally, years of other identical attempts to clarify 
communication between the same parties about anatta. This time, 
however, when we had the definitions and the sutta side by side, 
there was hope, I felt, for genuine discussion and clarification, 
rather than for more of what, sadly, appears to be mere 'word' 
games. I should have remembered the words of a good friend 
recently ... 'Hope is dukkha'.
Victor - I don't think that you have put forward anything of 
substance to support your statement about Nyanatiloka Mahathera, and 
I believe the remarks should be withdrawn. That said, and whether 
you agree or not with that opinion, I thank you for your posts so 
far, and believe that this time, they reveal a little more clearly 
your personal views on 'the matter of anatta'. 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao"
	
33339

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 0:39pm
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 008 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta can also be classified according to its implication on the 
future. They are akusala cittas, kusala cittas, vipaka cittas, and 
kiriya cittas. These terms will be explained in due course.

If a citta is unwholesome or akusala, it does have a future 
implication that is bad result. That future will come as result when 
conditions favour. By the same token, if a citta is wholesome or 
kusala, its future implication will be good result.

Kusala means wholesome or promoting goodness or adding goodness to 
action. Akusala means unwholesome or badness-tagged actions. Both 
kusala actions and akusala actions are collectively 
called 'kammapatha actions'.

Kamma here means seed-potential. There are seeds. When they are in 
right conditions such as good soil, having wet, receiving heat 
appropriate to its needs, they give rise to plantation. So do kamma 
in citta niyama. Niyama means natural law that is no one governs the 
nature and the nature goes on its own.

If we do good things, this doing become seeds or kamma. As seeds give 
rise to plants when conditions favour, kamma give rise to result 
cittas or vipaka when conditions favour. Kammapatha means 'kama-
giving' or 'resulting in kama as effect of actions.

Vipaka means result. Vipaka or vipaka cittas are just the result of 
our past kamma or our past performances or actions which had 
kammapatha effect. Examples are as soon as we start to see colour and 
light, that initial seeing is vipaka cittas. So vipaka cittas do not 
have kammapatha effect and they will never give rise to future 
implication or vipaka never give rise to kama potential as in case of 
akusala and kusala cittas.

Kiriya cittas are cittas that do not have any kamma potential and 
these cittas are just performing what they do and they do not have 
kamapatha effect. Examples of kiriya citta in our kamma sattas or 
humans are pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta. These 
2 will be explained in the due course. All actions of arahats are 
kiriya and they do not have kamma potential and they do not have 
kammapatha effect.

There are 12 akusala cittas, 21 kusala cittas, 36 vipaka cittas, and 
20 kiriya cittas totalling 12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89 cittas. If 
lokuttara cittas are lokuttara jhana cittas then there will be 12 
akusala cittas, 37 kusala cittas, 52 vipaka cittas and 20 kiriya 
cittas totalling 12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121 cittas.

In this kind of classification, there are akusala, kusala, vipaka, 
and kiriya citta. Akusala and kusala both give rise to kamma while 
vipaka are just the result of past kamma or past akusala or past 
kusala actions. Kiriya cittas are not the result or not kammapatha 
cittas. 

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33340

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 0:53pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Howard,

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/25/04 1:05:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > Hi Howard,
> > 
> > But you do make assumption of what self is with your definition 
of 
> > the word 'self' as an empty concept, without actual referent; 
i.e., 
> > that nowhere is any such thing to be found.
> > 
> > In your case you assume that self as something not to be found 
> > anywhere, as you've claimed before that there is no self.
> > 
> > What you are trying to convey to me is itself 
entangled/convoluted 
> > and it comes out as entangled/convoluted.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > 
> ==========================
> Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO 
YOU MEAN? 



Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually 
is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. 
This is not my self."




> If you do not tell me or anyone what you mean by 'self' or by 'not-
self', then 
> in saying "Every dhamma is not-self" you have not communicated 
anything. 



Regarding how the term 'self' is used above without assuming what 
self is, please check
Dhammapada XII
Self
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/12.html




If 
> two people agree on the meaning of a term, then they can 
communicate using 
> that term. If not, then not.



You can assume what self is and get into all the entanglement and 
convolution as shown in your messages, or you can use the 
term 'self' as it is used in "Dhammapada XII--Self" without assuming 
what self is, without the entanglement and convolution of that very 
assumption.



> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Metta,
Victor
	
33341

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:04pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Hello Icara,

No, New Zealand is not my country, beautiful though it is. I'm 
Australian from south of Brisbane. I put the (gasp!) in for the 
other Australians (Aussies) on the List, who may tease me about 
praising a Kiwi (New Zealand) writer. New Zealand is our great 
rival in the major sports both countries are involved in. Rugby 
Union, Rugby League, and Cricket. And I believe a rather larger 
number of Kiwis now live in Australia than the other way around.:-)

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 

CF: Regarding Garfield - I have to 
> > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books 
> > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray 
> > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog!
> > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm 

I: >>I will check it out about Footrot Flats... is New Zealand your
>>home country ? WOW!
>>And I am a fanatic Trekker too!

>>Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33342

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:27pm
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 009 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta can be classified in a number of ways. Everyone knows feeling. 
Everyone has felt different feelings at least once in their life. 
These feelings are pleasant physical feeling or sukha, pleasant 
mental feeling or somanassa, unpleasant physical feeling or dukkha, 
unpleasant mental feeling or domanassa, and equanimous feeling or 
upekkha.

Sukha is a Pali word. 'Su' in general means good, sound, fine, 
pleasant, agreeable, desirable. Sukha is agreeable physical feeling. 
Dukkha comprises 'Du' and 'Kha'. Dukkha means 'rarely bearable' 
or 'unbearable ' feeling.

Somanassa is made up of 'So' and 'Manassa'. 'Su' and 'So' may be the 
same meaning here. It is agreeable or good or desirable. 'Mana' means 
mind. So 'somanassa' means mentally pleasant feeling.

By the same token, domanassa is made up of 'Do' and 'Manassa'. 'Du' 
or 'Do' are for bad. So domanassa means 'mentally unpleasant feeling 
like fury or angry or aversion.

Upekkha is made up of 'Upa' and 'Ekkha'. 'Upa' means not extreme and 
but appropriate and flexible to the current object. 'Ekkha' means 
feeling or sensing. Upekkha means not extreme and it is just in the 
middle of sukha, somanassa and dukkha, domanassa.

According to these five feelings citta is grouped into five.

1. 62 somanassa cittas or consciousness with pleasant mental feeling
2. 1 sukkha citta or consciousness with pleasant physical feeling
3. 55 upekkha cittas or consciousness with equanimous feeling
4. 1 dukkha citta or consciousness with unpleasant physical feeling
5. 2 domanassa cittas or consciousness with unpleasant mental feeling

Altogether there will be 62 + 1 + 55 + 1 + 2 = 121 cittas.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33343

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:45pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Christine and all,

On the other hand, I am not quite sure if you have considered 
thoroughly about what has been written. You are welcome to discuss 
how you understand it anyway. Perhaps you would find the discussion 
and clarification genuine because of your participation in the 
discussion and clarification.

Also, the remarks are about definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's 
dictionary. They are not about Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera 
personally.

The definition contains the assumption that self is a self-
existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. 
Because of this assumption, the definition is misleading and 
misrepresenting.

I would suggest go to the source in the discourses in the Pali Canon 
regarding what the Buddha taught.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello Victor, Howard, and all,
> 
> I was peacefully sleeping in another time-zone while the two of 
you 
> were having the discussion about 'self'. Your discussions (read 
> through in one sitting) are illuminating, particularly when they 
> echo, literally, years of other identical attempts to clarify 
> communication between the same parties about anatta. This time, 
> however, when we had the definitions and the sutta side by side, 
> there was hope, I felt, for genuine discussion and clarification, 
> rather than for more of what, sadly, appears to be mere 'word' 
> games. I should have remembered the words of a good friend 
> recently ... 'Hope is dukkha'.
> Victor - I don't think that you have put forward anything of 
> substance to support your statement about Nyanatiloka Mahathera, 
and 
> I believe the remarks should be withdrawn. That said, and whether 
> you agree or not with that opinion, I thank you for your posts so 
> far, and believe that this time, they reveal a little more clearly 
> your personal views on 'the matter of anatta'. 
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
	
33344

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Hi Chris!

> No, New Zealand is not my country, beautiful though it is. I'm 
> Australian from south of Brisbane. I put the (gasp!) in for the 
> other Australians (Aussies) on the List, who may tease me about 
> praising a Kiwi (New Zealand) writer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Goodness!
I only heard about Brisbane at Railroad Tycoon II Australia 
Scenario:You must Connect Darwin to Alice Springs to Brisbane by 
train to win the game. I usually begin connecting Sidney to Grafton 
and after to Brisbane, making a lot of money with cargo and 
passengers, and then hurling headlong to Bracaldine, Alice Springs 
and Darwin! Simple!
And, of course, I´ve picked up many buddhistic articles and my 
first Abhidhamma companion at FTP web repositories on Australia.
The Kiwis seem also good to taste...hahahahahaha!!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------
New Zealand is our great 
> rival in the major sports both countries are involved in. Rugby 
> Union, Rugby League, and Cricket. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you believe in the unbelievable ...?
Here in Rio there is ONLY ONE team Cricket... a ponderous bunch of 
gentleman and ladies dressed in white, playing cricket at Aterro do 
Flamengo Playground every weekend. I even thought about a match with 
them sometimes...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
And I believe a rather larger 
> number of Kiwis now live in Australia than the other way around.:-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

And don´t forget to keep your Abhidhamma reeadings always updated!

Mettaya, Ícaro




> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
> 
> CF: Regarding Garfield - I have to 
> > > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books 
> > > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray 
> > > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog!
> > > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm 
> 
> I: >>I will check it out about Footrot Flats... is New Zealand your
> >>home country ? WOW!
> >>And I am a fanatic Trekker too!
> 
> >>Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33345

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:27pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Oh Icaro! quel horreur! You have been winning under false 
pretences!!!!

NO Australian Railway goes to Darwin through Queensland. The ONLY 
Railway to Darwin goes through South Australia!! (Capital city 
Adelaide - from whence our Moderator Jon comes). To check:
http://www.railpage.org.au/railmaps/

Now - what would a good buddhist do under these circumstances? :-) 
Return the winnings? (gasp! and double gasp!!) Say nothing - the 
intention at the time was pure?? (Or was it??!!) Ah, decisions, 
decisions ... :-) As a true follower of the Dhamma and devotee of 
the Abhidhamma, I have every confidence that you will make 
the "RIGHT!!" decision. :-)

Those stalwarts at the Aterro do Flamengo Playground must be 
expatriate members of British Commonwealth countries. (Cricket has 
among the highest number of participants of sports in the world, 
rivalling soccer - Indians and Pakistanis are fanatical players in 
their tens of millions). 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
P.S. 
(Do you think there could be an infectious virus going around whose 
symptoms are exclamation marks!!!!, CAPITAL letters, question 
marks??, smiles :-), and a sprinkling of utterances in foreign 
languages??!!)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca"
	
33346

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the refs. re. 4NT in D.O. My main quandry is that it seems to
me if lobha is cause and dukkha is result then dukkha is kamma vipaka,
but Htoo said this wasn't the right way to slice it. Why not?

Larry
	
33347

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:42am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/25/04 4:13:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> > Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO 
> YOU MEAN? 
> 
> 
> 
> Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually 
> is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. 
> This is not my self."
> 
========================
Questioner: What do you mean by S?
Answerer: Why, I mean S, of course.
Questioner: Oh ... I see.

Victor, I was considering cutting this thread, but no need - I see 
that it has unraveled. Let's get on to something else when the non-spirit moves 
us. ;-)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33348

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:31pm
Subject: Vism.XIV 79 (corrected)

Hi all, I left out 2 sentences in the note. Here is the corrected
version. L.

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 

79. Again, it is of five kinds as born of one, born of two, born of
three, born of four, and not born of anything. Herein, what is
kamma-born only or consciousness-born only is called 'born of one'. Of
these, materiality of the faculties, together with the heart-basis, is
kamma-born only; the two intimations are consciousness-born only. But
what is born [now] of consciousness and [now] of temperature is called
'born of two'. That is the sound base only.(33) What is born of
temperature, consciousness, and nutriment [452] is called 'born of
three'. But that is the three beginning with 'lightness' only. What is
born from the four beginning with kamma is called 'born of four'. That
is all the rest except 'matter as characteristic'. 
--------------------- 
note 33. ' "The sound base only": here some say, "The consciousness-born
is always intimative (savi~n~nattika)". The Ancients say, "There is
sound due to the intervention (vipphaara) of applied thought that does
not intimate". While depending on the word of the Great Commentary that
puts it thus, "Intimatable (cognizable) through the ear by means of the
sound due to applied thought's intervention", still there is also need
of the arising of consciousness-originated sound without intimation
(cognition) for because of the words "For the intimation (cognition) is
not due to intimating speech" (?), it arises together with sound not
intimatable (cognizable) through the ear. That being so, there would
have to be a consciousness-born sound-ennead. And that theory is
rejected by Sa.nghakaaras who imagine that it is self-contradictory to
say that there is sound not intimatable (cognizable) through the ear.
Others, however, do not reject the Great Commentary's statement and they
comment on its intention. How? [They say that] the non-intimation
(non-cognition) through the ear of the sound activated due to applied
thought's intervention is stated in the Suttas with this intention, "He
tells by hearing with the divine ear the subtle sound that is conascent
with the intimation, originated by applied thought, and consisting in
movement of the tongue and palate, and so on" (cf. A.i,171), and that in
the Pa.t.thaana (P.tn.1,7) the state of object condition for
ear-consciousness is stated with reference to gross sound' (Pm. 460.)
	
33349

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi Howard,

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Victor -
> 
> In a message dated 5/25/04 4:13:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> 
> > > Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO 
> > YOU MEAN? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it 
actually 
> > is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am 
not. 
> > This is not my self."
> > 
> ========================
> Questioner: What do you mean by S?
> Answerer: Why, I mean S, of course.
> Questioner: Oh ... I see.



When you asked what I mean when I say that every dhamma is not-self, 
I did not just answer that "Every dhamma is not self."

Perhaps I should just answer:

Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment 
thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self."

when you asked me what I mean when I said that every dhamma is not- 
self.


> 
> Victor, I was considering cutting this thread, but no need -
I see 
> that it has unraveled. 



However the thread ends, as long as it has come to an end in a 
friendly term, it is fine.



Let's get on to something else when the non-spirit moves 
> us. ;-)



Mmmm...Christine started this thread and both of us just got on to 
it.

:-)


> 
> With metta,
> Howard


Metta,
Victor
	
33350

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:14pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: In Laws

Hello Nina, and all

N:> Let me know how it went

Ph: Thank you for your concern, Nina. In the end, the trip was 
called off - not due to an outburst of aversion, but other 
circumstances.
I was planning to go carrying my copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life 
the way vampire fighters carry garlic. Talk about attachment!

N: > I would like to encourage you to kusala when 
meeting "dysfunctional
> in-laws'. 

Ph: I must say when I read "encourage you to kusala" is sounds like 
you are recommending that I have kusala and I could take that they 
wrong way and think that I could decide to have kusala. I was going 
to stay in the moment, watch the dosa that arose - if it arose. Ah, 
but that kind of mindfulness *is* kusala. So when you say you 
encourage me to kusala, it is not that you are saying that I should 
have virtuous kusala such as metta - unless of course it worked out 
that way. You are just saying stay aware of the moments that are 
rising and falling away, right, even if it means being aware of a 
whole lot of akusala citta such as anger at my father-in law? 

N: >You know what, it helps just to think of phenomena arising because
> of conditions. You do not know what will happen ahead of time.

Ph: I had been planning to have a talk with my father in law to air 
out some issues, out of an interest in trying to mend our relations. 
(I have resentment towards him for failing to protect Naomi from a 
horrifically abusive mother for long years when she was a child.) But 
I realized in recent days that it would be best not to plan for such 
a talk and just see what happens. I have been conditioned to hope for 
such a talk, so if the opportunity arose, it would happen, I 
realized. Now, that could have been dodging the chore of practicing 
what to say in Japanese and so on. Laziness. Or it could have been a 
wise approach.

>(accidentally erased your words - I think it was that there needn't 
be so much thinking about people.)
N:> thinking cittas, lobha, dosa, metta, is that not enough? 

Ph: I think along with the great sadness of parting from loved ones 
at death, another test for one's courage to practice the Dhamma and 
aim to penetrate the truth of impersonality like Christine was 
talking about is one's courage to forgive and forget when it comes to 
things like child abuse. I am clinging to the concept that a father 
should protect his child, and am calculating based on this how much 
we owe him or don't owe him an obligation to help him out with 
Naomi's mentally- ill, debt-ridden, suicidal brother. (A twin - he 
was pampered by the mother as Naomi was abused, but he seems to have 
come out the worse for it.) I hope she stays clear of anything to do 
with him. This clinging to the people involved in this drama and 
desire to protect her is something I will be aware of as the story 
continues to unfold. And aware that it is a story, and the mind leaps 
to extend and deepen the impact of stories in an akusala way. And 
well aware that khamma is involved. (I used to have a strong aversion 
to the notion that Naomi's khamma was responsible for her childhood 
hardships, but now I see that it was not *her* khamma, per se, it was 
khamma and impersonal and nothing that she would need to feel 
responsible for or ashamed of.) 

N: >And they all have
> conditions for their arising, you cannot possibly direct their 
arising.
> After your visit you may well think: O, it went much better than I 
thought.
> It depends on the citta that arises. Not on other people.

Ph: Well, the visit didn't happen. But I was feeling very 
comfortable and confident that my new knowledge of Abhidhamma would 
lead to a better trip than last time. When it came time to decide to 
cancel or not, I was in favour of going. 
But it is true that I was going to bring ADL with me. Your books do 
give me a lot of courage and confidence, Nina. 

Metta, 
Phil
	
33351

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:50pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes

Hi, Victor (and Christine) -

In a message dated 5/25/04 7:34:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> 
> Reply in context.
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> >Hi, Victor -
> >
> >In a message dated 5/25/04 4:13:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> >yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
> >
> >>> Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO 
> >>YOU MEAN? 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it 
> actually 
> >>is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am 
> not. 
> >>This is not my self."
> >>
> >========================
> > Questioner: What do you mean by S?
> > Answerer: Why, I mean S, of course.
> > Questioner: Oh ... I see.
> 
> 
> 
> When you asked what I mean when I say that every dhamma is not-self, 
> I did not just answer that "Every dhamma is not self."
> 
> Perhaps I should just answer:
> 
> Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment 
> thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self."
> 
> when you asked me what I mean when I said that every dhamma is not- 
> self.
> 
----------------------------------------
Howard:
Okay. :-)
----------------------------------------

> 
> 
> >
> > Victor, I was considering cutting this thread, but no need -
> I see 
> >that it has unraveled. 
> 
> 
> 
> However the thread ends, as long as it has come to an end in a 
> friendly term, it is fine.
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Definitely on friendly terms, Victor. That seems to be mutually so, my 
friend.
--------------------------------------------------

> 
> 
> 
> Let's get on to something else when the non-spirit moves 
> >us. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmm...Christine started this thread and both of us just got on to 
> it.
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Okay, then - let's get that Christine!! ;-))
========================
With metta,
Howard 

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33352

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:58pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

Thank you, Howard and James, for your kind words re my anecdote. 
You words encourage me to continue to stay in the moment and not hide 
away from harsh realities using self-generated coping techniques.

I thought of "the Green Zone" in which the coalition forces and 
corporations operate from within Bagdad. Perhaps if they dared to 
walk freely, unarmed, amoung potential enemies, the enemies could see 
through to their humanity more easily, and while there would be 
painful incidents in the short run, there would be right 
understanding on all sides eventually. 
Through misunderstanding of Brahma-Viharas I used to try to create 
my own Green Zone where I would be safe - and I'm sure I still do at 
times - but I have seen through that practice. 
It is not wise to try to shield oneself from aversion. If I am open 
to aversion and other akusala cittas when they arise, I can see 
though - eventually - to the fact that they are annata. Knowing this 
is very liberating. 
Of course I am fortunate that the form of aversion I'm dealing with 
is not intent on shredding me with Improvised Explosive Devices set 
to detonate when I walk by.
(You can see I am still watching the news... :( 

Metta,
Phil



--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Phil -
> 
> In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
plnao@j... writes:
> 
> > Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, 
feeling
> > a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had
> > been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the
> > past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice 
of
> > intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my 
blues,
> > perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual 
image
> > of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and
> > discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what
> > arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work
> > fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a 
bench
> > arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch
> > and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being
> > killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his
> > wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my
> > greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell 
away
> > and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to 
see
> > the dysfunctional in-laws.
> > 
> > I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and
> > whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But 
the
> > point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of 
the
> > flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling.
> > 
> > It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. 
> > It was
> > rupa and nama, rising and falling.
> > That is progress.
> ========================
> This is great, Phil. I loved it!
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
	
33353

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:07am
Subject: Feelings and Dreams

Dear group,

I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My 
understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of 
just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in 
each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, 
and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised 
that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing 
the Teachings.


This is where I have a difficulty. I occasionally experience things 
that have a connection with future happenings for myself and for 
others. I can't see any explanation of these things I know to be 
true, within my present understanding of Buddhism. And yet they do 
happen. These things fall into two categories - feelings, and 
dreams. They are not particularly earthshaking - there seems to be 
no purpose served by having them.

The feelings consist of occasionally (often only yearly or less 
frequently) being suddenly affected by a feeling of such great 
strength, with a certain 'flavour' that I have come to recognise as 
making it 'one of those' feelings. The pattern I have developed 
through my life is to think over each of my loved ones until a 
change in the feeling indicates it is connected to that person. I 
wait. Within a day, maybe two, a significantly unhappy (most often) 
or happy event unexpectedly and unpredictably happens to that 
person. Nothing clearer than that. It is never anyone I am worrying 
about or about whom I have any information that would lead to an 
expectation that they would experience this significant event.

Dreams happen at about the same frequency and seem to have no 
significance whatsoever. An example from the past: Once, just 
after I finished high school, and before I started work, I had a 
dream. In the dream I saw a workplace and various men and women who 
I liked or disliked or was anxious about. It was quite a boring 
dream, with one person being particularly unpleasant. There was 
something about the 'flavour' of the dream that imprinted it on my 
memory, that felt unusual, not like the feel of 'ordinary' 
dreams. Six months later, I obtained a position in the Government, 
and started work in exactly that workplace It was literally 'a 
seeing into the future'. Everything in the dream, the layout and 
furnishings of the physical surroundings, and the faces and 
physical appearance of the people, and their characters, was exactly 
as in real life. I never saw them until six months after the 
dream. 

How does this integrate with Teachings of the Abhidhamma and 
Buddhism generally? And if it doesn't ....?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33354

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:13am
Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams

Hi Christine and all,

I thought you might find this interesting:
Anguttara Nikaya V.196
Supina Sutta
Dreams
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-196.html

Some people do have intuition and vision about the future.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Dear group,
> 
> I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My 
> understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of 
> just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors 
in 
> each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying 
waiting, 
> and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I 
realised 
> that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing 
> the Teachings.
[snip]
> metta and peace,
> Christine
	
33355

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:39am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

Hi, Phil -

In a message dated 5/25/04 9:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
plnao@j... writes:

> Through misunderstanding of Brahma-Viharas I used to try to create 
> my own Green Zone where I would be safe - and I'm sure I still do at 
> times - but I have seen through that practice. 
> It is not wise to try to shield oneself from aversion. If I am open 
> to aversion and other akusala cittas when they arise, I can see 
> though - eventually - to the fact that they are annata. Knowing this 
> is very liberating. 
> 
==========================
Just a brief comment on the foregoing. I understand that the primary 
thrust of what you write here is the point that dukkha is not to be ended by 
refusing to see, and I agree with that. The Dhamma is reality oriented, and 
clear awareness is a priority. It, developed into wisdom, is the razor-sharp 
diamond cutter that slices through delusion. That said, I'd like to add a couple 
disclaimers. 
One of these is that at times, and we each will have to determine for 
ourself when it is such a time, one may be in such a state that it is the 
better part of valor to "look" just briefly, and to then set aside the deeper 
looking until one is a bit less vulnerable. These times are normally rare, and we 
shouldn't be "too easy" on ourselves, but commom sense should prevail.
A second disclaimer is that cultivation of a mental inclination to 
lovingkindness, compassion, rejoicing in the welfare of others, and equanimity is 
a praiseworthy practice, particularly if these inclinations don't seem to 
come to one as easily as one would wish. So long as the motives for such 
cultivation seem to be largely wholesome, and not solely as a "quick fix" for 
distress, this is a laudable practice highly recommended by the Buddha.
The third disclaimer is that "shielding oneself from aversion" in the 
form of hiding from oneself mental (and other) events we'd rather not see 
should not be confused with guarding the senses. Guarding the senses, by which I 
understand the mindful attention to feelings with an eye to short-circuiting 
the further development of tanha and upadana, and, if one hasn't been sharp 
enough, to short-circuiting the process as soon thereafter as possible, is a 
worthwhile practice repeatedly recommended by the Buddha. In fact, with regard to 
dealing with very, very serious unwholesome reactions, there were circumstances 
in which the Buddha said that as a last resort, one should even rely on a 
teeth-gritting act of suppression. The Buddha's practice was not entirely a 
passive one, and he did not prescribe exactly the same medicine to all patients 
under all conditions. It varied according to person and circumstance.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33356

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:05am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hi, Christine -

In a message dated 5/26/04 4:50:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:

> 
> Dear group,
> 
> I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My 
> understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of 
> just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in 
> each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, 
> and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised 
> that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing 
> the Teachings.
> 
> 
> This is where I have a difficulty. I occasionally experience things 
> that have a connection with future happenings for myself and for 
> others. I can't see any explanation of these things I know to be 
> true, within my present understanding of Buddhism. And yet they do 
> happen. These things fall into two categories - feelings, and 
> dreams. They are not particularly earthshaking - there seems to be 
> no purpose served by having them.
> 
> The feelings consist of occasionally (often only yearly or less 
> frequently) being suddenly affected by a feeling of such great 
> strength, with a certain 'flavour' that I have come to recognise as 
> making it 'one of those' feelings. The pattern I have developed 
> through my life is to think over each of my loved ones until a 
> change in the feeling indicates it is connected to that person. I 
> wait. Within a day, maybe two, a significantly unhappy (most often) 
> or happy event unexpectedly and unpredictably happens to that 
> person. Nothing clearer than that. It is never anyone I am worrying 
> about or about whom I have any information that would lead to an 
> expectation that they would experience this significant event.
> 
> Dreams happen at about the same frequency and seem to have no 
> significance whatsoever. An example from the past: Once, just 
> after I finished high school, and before I started work, I had a 
> dream. In the dream I saw a workplace and various men and women who 
> I liked or disliked or was anxious about. It was quite a boring 
> dream, with one person being particularly unpleasant. There was 
> something about the 'flavour' of the dream that imprinted it on my 
> memory, that felt unusual, not like the feel of 'ordinary' 
> dreams. Six months later, I obtained a position in the Government, 
> and started work in exactly that workplace It was literally 'a 
> seeing into the future'. Everything in the dream, the layout and 
> furnishings of the physical surroundings, and the faces and 
> physical appearance of the people, and their characters, was exactly 
> as in real life. I never saw them until six months after the 
> dream. 
> 
> How does this integrate with Teachings of the Abhidhamma and 
> Buddhism generally? And if it doesn't ....?
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
==========================
I've had experiences of this sort, and my wife much more so. (She 
really has a bit of an undeveloped "gift", I'd say.) When such an experience 
occurs, it often carries with it its own mark of undeniable certainty, and in such 
cases it is typically infallible.
I think that it is a matter of our somehow picking up on the fact that 
(nearly) all the conditions necessary for the occurrence of an event have 
occurred, making that event a (near) certainty. Of course, picking up on that 
fact might well be an additional condition that could, itself, alter the flow of 
events. But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and 
conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of momentariness (or, 
better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is the core of the 
Dhamma as I see it.
With regard to "predicting the future" with certainty, we in fact do 
that all the time. I type a key, fully expecting to see a character appear on 
the screen, and I'm usually not disappointed. I push my foot down on a step, 
fully expecting to have my body lifted therby, and I'm usually not disappointed. 
There is a regularity to conditionality, and our ordinary faculties enable us 
to see the immediate future with much certainty. The sort of dramatic 
predictive capacity you are speaking of is, as I see it, a mental extension of this 
common ability.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33357

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:18am
Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Phil,

> I'm attached to the intellectual aspect of understanding what's 
laid 
> out in there - and this intellectual attachment is something I'll 
> have to let go of gradually in order to examine realities. I'm sure 
> it's something that everyone here has gone through at some point. 
> Conceit at being able to understand Abhidhamma, attachment to the 
> terminology etc....

=====

I suspect that there are some on DSG who haven't gone through this 
yet... :-)

=====

> Thank you for you encouragement not to put it off. As Christine 
> puts it "the danger is that you think you have too much time." I 
> think about that line every day these days - even as I write "no 
> hurry" or "no forcing things." Middle way, dontcha know. 

=====

I really like Christine's sign-off message as well.

=====
> 
> Ph: > > Study > Practice > Realization, right? 
> > 
> R:> Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna
> >
> 
> Ph: Does this progression means that Samadhi is a necessary 
> precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without 
> Samadhi first?

=====
>
> If I recally correctly, Samadhi is one-pointed 
> concentration. Of course we need to have concentration on a rupa or 
> nama before panna related to it can arise. 
> 
> I think you place more emphasis on meditation than some people 
> here. (I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is 
seen 
> as a self-driven activity. Why can't meditation arise in a 
> conditioned way the same way studying or discussing does?) Does the 
> place of meditation in your practice lead to Samadhi having a more 
> central place in this progression than it would for someone who 
> doesn't mediate?

=====

Reading DSG "creates conditions", picking up a dhamma book "creates 
conditions", going to a dhamma talk "creates conditions", sitting on 
a cushion focusing on the rising and falling of the breath or 
thinking of others with loving kindness also "creates conditions".

It depends on accumulations as to which "created conditions" have the 
biggest impact on samadhi arising. 

I heard a story of a young child in Thailand who was unable to learn 
to read or write at school. He was considered to be an idiot of not 
much use, so his parents sent him to be a monk. As soon as he started 
meditating, he was able to achieve jhanas and recall past lives. He 
was able to learn to chant the paritas, not because he was able to 
read them or remember what the monks tried to teach him in this 
existence, but rather because he could easily remember past lives as 
a monk where he chanted the same paritas.

Each of should experiment to determine the best approach for 
ourselves. When members of DSG speak out against meditation, I cannot 
argue with them. Because of their accumulations, meditation may be a 
complete waste of their time. There are many cases in the Suttas 
where people become enlightened without any meditation in that 
existence.

The question of "is meditation the right path" should be unasked. 
This question presupposes that there is a "right path" for all people.

=====
> 
> Sila is morality, the precepts. Does the above progression means 
> that we leave behind the need to think about the precepts once we 
> develop Panna? Does right understanding make the precepts 
redundant? 
> i.e Are precepts more vital for those who haven't cultivated panna 
> yet and less vital for those that have? 

You have raised a number of excellent questions. Here is an excellent 
article by Bhikkhu Bodhi that should provide some insight.

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/going_for_refuge_taking_the_prec.ht
m

You can read a summary of this article in my Class Notes, starting on 
page 90 (can be downloaded from the files section of DSG).

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33358

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:21am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 010 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There a number of classification of citta. There are root conditions 
that support citta. The root support the whole tree while in the 
absence of it, the tree will not live.

There are 6 hetus or 6 roots that support citta. According to whether 
there is hetu or not, citta is classified as ahetuka citta and 
sahetuka citta.

Ahetuka means without hetu or without root. Hetus or roots are lobha 
or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, alobha or non-
attachment, adosa or metta or non-aversion, and amoha or panna or 
pannindriya.

There are 18 ahetuka cittas and 71 sahetuka cittas. Sahetuka 
means 'with hetu or with root'. 18 ahetuka cittas and 71 sahetuka 
cittas make a total of 89 cittas.

Among sahetuka cittas, there are 2 ekahetuka cittas, 22 dvihetuka 
cittas, and 47 tihetuka cittas altogether 71 sahetuka cittas.

Eka means 'one'. So ekahetuka means 'single-rooted'. Dvi means 'two 
or double or twice'. Dvihetuka means 'double-rooted'. Ti 
means 'three'. Tihetuka means 'triple-rooted'.

There cittas will again be explained in the following messages. Even 
though citta is just awareness of its own object, depending on its 
associated cetasikas and their implication, there have been many 
classifications of citta.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33359

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:27am
Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams

Hi Christine,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My 
> understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of 
> just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors 
in 
> each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, 
> and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I 
realised 
> that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing 
> the Teachings.

Here is what Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda has to say about dreams in "What 
Buddhists Belive"

Dreams and Their Significance
'Life is nothing but a dream'.

One of man's greatest unsolved problems is the mystery of dreams. 
From the very earliest of times man has tried to analyze dreams and 
has tried to explain them in prophetic and psychological terms, but 
while there has been some measure of success recently, we are 
probably no nearer the answers to the baffling question: 'What is a 
dream?'

The great English Romantic poet William Wordsworth had a startling 
concept: that this life we live is merely a dream and that we 
will 'awake' to the 'real' reality when we die, when our 'dream' ends.

'Our birth is but a sleep and forgetting:
The Soul, that rises with us, our life's star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar.'

A similar concept is expressed in a charming old Buddhist tale which 
tells of a deva who was playing with some other devas. Being tired, 
he lay down to take a short nap and passed away. He was reborn as a 
girl on earth. There she got married, had a few children and lived to 
be very old. After her death again she was born as a deva amongst the 
same companions who had just finished playing their game. (This story 
also illustrates the world is very different from time in another 
plane of existence).

What has Buddhism to say about dreams? Just as in every other 
culture, Buddhism has had its fair share of people who claimed to be 
skilled in interpreting dreams. Such people earn a lot of money 
exploiting the ignorance of men and women who believe that every 
dream has a spiritual or prophetic significance.

According to Buddhist psychology dreams are ideational processes 
which occur as activities of the mind. In considering the occurrence 
of dreams it is relevant to remember that the process of sleeping can 
be regarded as falling into five stages.

1. drowsiness,
2. light slumber,
3. deep slumber,
4. light slumber and
5. awakening.

The significance and the cause of dreams were the subject of 
discussion in the famous book 'Milinda Panha' or 'The Questions of 
King Milinda', in which Ven. Nagasena has stated that there are six 
causes of dreams, three of them being organic, wind, bile and phlegm. 
The fourth is due to the intervention of supernatural forces, fifth, 
revival of past experience and sixth, the influence of future events. 
It is categorically stated that dreams occur only in light slumber 
which is said to be like the sleep of the monkey. Of the six causes 
given Ven. Nagasena has stated positively that the last, namely 
prophetic dreams are the only important ones and the others are 
relatively insignificant.

Dreams are mind-created phenomena and they are activities of the 
mind. All human beings dream, although some people cannot remember. 
Buddhism teaches that some dreams have psychological significance. 
The six causes mentioned earlier can also be classified in the 
following manner:

I. Every single thought that is created is stored in our subconscious 
mind and some of them strongly influence the mind according to our 
anxieties. When we sleep, some of these thoughts are activated and 
appear to us as 'pictures' moving before us. This happens because 
during sleep, the five senses which constitute our contact with the 
outside world, are temporarily arrested. The subconscious mind then 
is free to become dominant and to 're-play' thoughts that are stored. 
These dreams may be of value to psychiatry but cannot be classified 
as prophetic. They are merely the reflections of the mind at rest.

II. The second type of dream also has no significance. These are 
caused by internal and external provocations which set off a train 
of 'visual thoughts' which are 'seen' by the mind at rest. Internal 
factors are those which disturb the body (e.g. a heavy meal which 
does not allow one to have a restful slumber or imbalance and 
friction between elements that constitute the body). External 
provocation is when the mind is disturbed (although the sleeper may 
be unaware of it) by natural phenomena like the weather, wind, cold, 
rain, leaves rustling, windows rattling etc. The subconscious mind 
reacts to these disturbances and creates pictures to 'explain' them 
away. The mind accommodates the irritation in a seemingly rational 
way so that the dreamer can continue to sleep undisturbed. These 
dreams too have no importance and need no interpretation.

III. Then there are prophetic dreams. These are important. They are 
seldom experienced and only when there is an impending event which is 
of great relevance to the dreamer. Buddhism teaches that besides the 
tangible world we can experience, there are devas who exist on 
another plane or some spirits who are bound to this earth and are 
invisible to us. They could be our relatives or friends who have 
passed away and who have been reborn. They maintain their former 
mental relationships and attachments to us. When Buddhists transfer 
merits to devas and departed ones, they remember them and invite them 
to share the happiness accrued in the merit. Thus they develop a 
mental relationship with their departed ones. The devas in turn are 
pleased and they keep a watch over us and indicate something in 
dreams when we are facing certain big problems and they try to 
protect us from harm.

So, when there is something important that is going to happen in our 
lives they activate certain mental energies in our minds which are 
seen as dreams. These dreams can warn of impending danger or even 
prepare us for sudden over-whelming good news. These messages are 
given in symbolic terms (much like the negatives of photographs) and 
have to be interpreted skillfully and with intelligence. 
Unfortunately too many people confuses the first two kinds of dreams 
with these and end up wasting valuable time and money consulting fake 
mediums and dream-interpreters. The Buddha was aware that this could 
be exploited for personal gain and He therefore warned the monks 
against practising soothsaying, astrology and interpreting dreams in 
the name of Buddhism.

IV. Finally, our mind is the depository of all kammic energies 
accumulated in the past. Sometimes, when a kamma is about to ripen 
(that is, when the action we did in a previous life or early part of 
our life, is going to experience its reaction) the mind which is at 
rest during sleep can trigger off a 'picture' of what is going to 
happen. Again the impending action has to be of great importance and 
must be so strongly charged that the mind 'releases' the extra energy 
in the form of a vivid dream. Such dreams occur only very rarely and 
only to certain people with a special kind of mental make up. The 
sign of the effect of certain kammas also appears in our minds at the 
last moment when we are going to depart from this world.

Dreams can occur when two living human beings send strong mental 
telepathic messages to each other. When one person has an intense 
desire to communicate with another, he concentrates strongly on the 
message and the person with whom he wishes to communicate. When the 
mind is at rest, it is in an ideal state to receive these messages 
which are seen as dreams. Usually these dreams only appear in one 
intense moment because the human mind is not strong enough to sustain 
such messages over a long period of time.

All worldlings are dreamers, and they see as permanent, what is 
essentially impermanent. They do not see that youth ends in old age, 
beauty in ugliness, health in sickness, and life itself in death. In 
this dream-world, what is truly without substance is seen as reality. 
Dreaming during sleep is but another dimension of the dream-world. 
The only ones who are awake are the Buddhas and Arahats as they have 
seen reality.

Buddhas and Arahants never dream. The first three kinds of dream 
cannot occur in their minds, because their minds have been 
permanently 'stilled' and cannot be activated to dream. The last kind 
of dream cannot happen to them because they have eradicated all their 
craving energy completely, and there is no 'residual' energy of 
anxiety or unsatisfied desire to activate the mind to produce dreams. 
The Buddha is also known as the Awakened One because His way of 
relaxing the physical body is not the way we sleep which results in 
dreams. Great artists and thinkers, like the German Goethe, have 
often said they get some of their best inspiration through dreams. 
This could be because when their minds are cut off from the five 
senses during sleep, they produce clear thoughts which are creative 
in the highest degree. Wordsworth meant the same thing when he said 
that good poetry results from 'powerful emotions recollected in 
tranquillity'.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33360

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:27am
Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams

Hi Christine,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My 
> understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of 
> just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors 
in 
> each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, 
> and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I 
realised 
> that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing 
> the Teachings.

Here is what Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda has to say about dreams in "What 
Buddhists Belive"

Dreams and Their Significance
'Life is nothing but a dream'.

One of man's greatest unsolved problems is the mystery of dreams. 
From the very earliest of times man has tried to analyze dreams and 
has tried to explain them in prophetic and psychological terms, but 
while there has been some measure of success recently, we are 
probably no nearer the answers to the baffling question: 'What is a 
dream?'

The great English Romantic poet William Wordsworth had a startling 
concept: that this life we live is merely a dream and that we 
will 'awake' to the 'real' reality when we die, when our 'dream' ends.

'Our birth is but a sleep and forgetting:
The Soul, that rises with us, our life's star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar.'

A similar concept is expressed in a charming old Buddhist tale which 
tells of a deva who was playing with some other devas. Being tired, 
he lay down to take a short nap and passed away. He was reborn as a 
girl on earth. There she got married, had a few children and lived to 
be very old. After her death again she was born as a deva amongst the 
same companions who had just finished playing their game. (This story 
also illustrates the world is very different from time in another 
plane of existence).

What has Buddhism to say about dreams? Just as in every other 
culture, Buddhism has had its fair share of people who claimed to be 
skilled in interpreting dreams. Such people earn a lot of money 
exploiting the ignorance of men and women who believe that every 
dream has a spiritual or prophetic significance.

According to Buddhist psychology dreams are ideational processes 
which occur as activities of the mind. In considering the occurrence 
of dreams it is relevant to remember that the process of sleeping can 
be regarded as falling into five stages.

1. drowsiness,
2. light slumber,
3. deep slumber,
4. light slumber and
5. awakening.

The significance and the cause of dreams were the subject of 
discussion in the famous book 'Milinda Panha' or 'The Questions of 
King Milinda', in which Ven. Nagasena has stated that there are six 
causes of dreams, three of them being organic, wind, bile and phlegm. 
The fourth is due to the intervention of supernatural forces, fifth, 
revival of past experience and sixth, the influence of future events. 
It is categorically stated that dreams occur only in light slumber 
which is said to be like the sleep of the monkey. Of the six causes 
given Ven. Nagasena has stated positively that the last, namely 
prophetic dreams are the only important ones and the others are 
relatively insignificant.

Dreams are mind-created phenomena and they are activities of the 
mind. All human beings dream, although some people cannot remember. 
Buddhism teaches that some dreams have psychological significance. 
The six causes mentioned earlier can also be classified in the 
following manner:

I. Every single thought that is created is stored in our subconscious 
mind and some of them strongly influence the mind according to our 
anxieties. When we sleep, some of these thoughts are activated and 
appear to us as 'pictures' moving before us. This happens because 
during sleep, the five senses which constitute our contact with the 
outside world, are temporarily arrested. The subconscious mind then 
is free to become dominant and to 're-play' thoughts that are stored. 
These dreams may be of value to psychiatry but cannot be classified 
as prophetic. They are merely the reflections of the mind at rest.

II. The second type of dream also has no significance. These are 
caused by internal and external provocations which set off a train 
of 'visual thoughts' which are 'seen' by the mind at rest. Internal 
factors are those which disturb the body (e.g. a heavy meal which 
does not allow one to have a restful slumber or imbalance and 
friction between elements that constitute the body). External 
provocation is when the mind is disturbed (although the sleeper may 
be unaware of it) by natural phenomena like the weather, wind, cold, 
rain, leaves rustling, windows rattling etc. The subconscious mind 
reacts to these disturbances and creates pictures to 'explain' them 
away. The mind accommodates the irritation in a seemingly rational 
way so that the dreamer can continue to sleep undisturbed. These 
dreams too have no importance and need no interpretation.

III. Then there are prophetic dreams. These are important. They are 
seldom experienced and only when there is an impending event which is 
of great relevance to the dreamer. Buddhism teaches that besides the 
tangible world we can experience, there are devas who exist on 
another plane or some spirits who are bound to this earth and are 
invisible to us. They could be our relatives or friends who have 
passed away and who have been reborn. They maintain their former 
mental relationships and attachments to us. When Buddhists transfer 
merits to devas and departed ones, they remember them and invite them 
to share the happiness accrued in the merit. Thus they develop a 
mental relationship with their departed ones. The devas in turn are 
pleased and they keep a watch over us and indicate something in 
dreams when we are facing certain big problems and they try to 
protect us from harm.

So, when there is something important that is going to happen in our 
lives they activate certain mental energies in our minds which are 
seen as dreams. These dreams can warn of impending danger or even 
prepare us for sudden over-whelming good news. These messages are 
given in symbolic terms (much like the negatives of photographs) and 
have to be interpreted skillfully and with intelligence. 
Unfortunately too many people confuses the first two kinds of dreams 
with these and end up wasting valuable time and money consulting fake 
mediums and dream-interpreters. The Buddha was aware that this could 
be exploited for personal gain and He therefore warned the monks 
against practising soothsaying, astrology and interpreting dreams in 
the name of Buddhism.

IV. Finally, our mind is the depository of all kammic energies 
accumulated in the past. Sometimes, when a kamma is about to ripen 
(that is, when the action we did in a previous life or early part of 
our life, is going to experience its reaction) the mind which is at 
rest during sleep can trigger off a 'picture' of what is going to 
happen. Again the impending action has to be of great importance and 
must be so strongly charged that the mind 'releases' the extra energy 
in the form of a vivid dream. Such dreams occur only very rarely and 
only to certain people with a special kind of mental make up. The 
sign of the effect of certain kammas also appears in our minds at the 
last moment when we are going to depart from this world.

Dreams can occur when two living human beings send strong mental 
telepathic messages to each other. When one person has an intense 
desire to communicate with another, he concentrates strongly on the 
message and the person with whom he wishes to communicate. When the 
mind is at rest, it is in an ideal state to receive these messages 
which are seen as dreams. Usually these dreams only appear in one 
intense moment because the human mind is not strong enough to sustain 
such messages over a long period of time.

All worldlings are dreamers, and they see as permanent, what is 
essentially impermanent. They do not see that youth ends in old age, 
beauty in ugliness, health in sickness, and life itself in death. In 
this dream-world, what is truly without substance is seen as reality. 
Dreaming during sleep is but another dimension of the dream-world. 
The only ones who are awake are the Buddhas and Arahats as they have 
seen reality.

Buddhas and Arahants never dream. The first three kinds of dream 
cannot occur in their minds, because their minds have been 
permanently 'stilled' and cannot be activated to dream. The last kind 
of dream cannot happen to them because they have eradicated all their 
craving energy completely, and there is no 'residual' energy of 
anxiety or unsatisfied desire to activate the mind to produce dreams. 
The Buddha is also known as the Awakened One because His way of 
relaxing the physical body is not the way we sleep which results in 
dreams. Great artists and thinkers, like the German Goethe, have 
often said they get some of their best inspiration through dreams. 
This could be because when their minds are cut off from the five 
senses during sleep, they produce clear thoughts which are creative 
in the highest degree. Wordsworth meant the same thing when he said 
that good poetry results from 'powerful emotions recollected in 
tranquillity'.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33361

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:30am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

In a message dated 5/26/04 5:41:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... 
writes:
Just a brief comment on the foregoing. I understand that the primary 
thrust of what you write here is the point that dukkha is not to be ended by 
refusing to see, and I agree with that. The Dhamma is reality oriented, and 
clear awareness is a priority. It, developed into wisdom, is the razor-sharp 
diamond cutter that slices through delusion. That said, I'd like to add a 
couple 
disclaimers. 
One of these is that at times, and we each will have to determine for 
ourself when it is such a time, one may be in such a state that it is the 
better part of valor to "look" just briefly, and to then set aside the deeper 
looking until one is a bit less vulnerable. These times are normally rare, 
and we 
shouldn't be "too easy" on ourselves, but commom sense should prevail.
A second disclaimer is that cultivation of a mental inclination to 
lovingkindness, compassion, rejoicing in the welfare of others, and 
equanimity is 
a praiseworthy practice, particularly if these inclinations don't seem to 
come to one as easily as one would wish. So long as the motives for such 
cultivation seem to be largely wholesome, and not solely as a "quick fix" for 
distress, this is a laudable practice highly recommended by the Buddha.
The third disclaimer is that "shielding oneself from aversion" in the 
form of hiding from oneself mental (and other) events we'd rather not see 
should not be confused with guarding the senses. Guarding the senses, by 
which I 
understand the mindful attention to feelings with an eye to short-circuiting 
the further development of tanha and upadana, and, if one hasn't been sharp 
enough, to short-circuiting the process as soon thereafter as possible, is a 
worthwhile practice repeatedly recommended by the Buddha. In fact, with 
regard to 
dealing with very, very serious unwholesome reactions, there were 
circumstances 
in which the Buddha said that as a last resort, one should even rely on a 
teeth-gritting act of suppression. The Buddha's practice was not entirely a 
passive one, and he did not prescribe exactly the same medicine to all 
patients 
under all conditions. It varied according to person and circumstance.
=======
Howard and all,

I would add that practice with the Brahma Viharas and other samatha 
techniques work on weakening the defilements thus helping us face reality.

Here is a slightly different twist. Interestingly, the Visud. suggests doing 
metta meditation at times during stressful situations. I think one example 
used was the stress caused by the various meditation objects associated with dead 
bodies. The metta meditation protects one, reduces the fearfulness, so you 
can then do the death meditations.

jack


	
33362

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:01am
Subject: Meditation (was Re: I have a wonderful wife)

Hi Rob M and all,

I would not say that meditation may be a complete waste of time for 
those who speak out against meditation.

I would say that some people may have hard time meditating. I 
believe that it is not an uncommon experience for most people who 
start meditation: One may feel very agitated. It is simply 
difficult to sit still, eyes closed, with thoughts and images coming 
and going in mind, with hurting ankles an knees. Sitting through 
five, ten or twenty minutes, one may need to endure not only 
physical pain but also mental agitation. It simply may not be easy.

So in short, meditation is not a waste of time, but it may be 
difficult. For those who find it difficult, they would need more 
determination and perseverance in meditation.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Phil,
[snip]
> 
> Each of should experiment to determine the best approach for 
> ourselves. When members of DSG speak out against meditation, I 
cannot 
> argue with them. Because of their accumulations, meditation may be 
a 
> complete waste of their time. There are many cases in the Suttas 
> where people become enlightened without any meditation in that 
> existence.
> 
> The question of "is meditation the right path" should be unasked. 
> This question presupposes that there is a "right path" for all 
people.
> 
[snip]
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33363

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was Re: I have a wonderful wife)

In a message dated 5/26/04 8:05:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:
So in short, meditation is not a waste of time, but it may be 
difficult. For those who find it difficult, they would need more 
determination and perseverance in meditation.
=====
Or/and they need to change their idea of meditation. Many people look upon 
agitation, etc., (5 Hindrances) as something that interrupts their meditation 
instead of a useful object of meditation.

jack

jack


	
33364

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:16am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 011 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There are still more classifications of citta. Citta always takes an 
object. No citta can exist without any object. Objects are called 
arammana in Pali. Arammana are where citta visits.

These objects or arammanas are ruparammana or sight which is colour, 
saddarammana or sound, gandharammana or smell, rasarammana or taste, 
photthabbarammana or touch-sense, and dhammarammana or mind-object.

Ruparammana comprises'rupa' and 'arammana'. Rupa here means visual 
object or sight and it is colour. Saddarammana is composed of 'sadda' 
and 'arammana'. Sadda means sound. So it is sound-object. Gandha 
means smell and rasa means taste and photthabba means touch-sense. In 
touch senses there are three realities which can be aware of through 
body. These touch senses are pathavi, tejo, and vayo.

Pathavi is the sense of softness-hardness/ tenderness-roughness. Tejo 
is the sense of warmness-coldness. And vayo is the sense of pushing-
pulling/ compression-repression/ resilience etc etc.

Dhammarammana or mind-object will be discussed in the coming posts. 
These six senses or six objects are experienced through one of 6 
sense doors or dvara.

Depending on dvara, citta can be classified as 

1. 36 ekadvarika cittas
2. 3 pancadvarika cittas
3. 31 chadvarika cittas
4. 10 chadvarika-non-chadvarika cittas
5. 9 advarika cittas

Eka means 'one'. Dvarika means 'door-related'. Ekadvarika 
means 'arising at a single door.' Panca means 'five'. Pancadvarika 
means ' arising at one of five sense doors.' Cha means 'six'. 
Chadvarika means 'arising at one of six sense doors.

Chadvarika-non-chadvarika means 'arising at one of six sense doors or 
arising not at any door.' Advarika means doorless or 'arising not at 
any door.

So there will be 36 + 3 + 31 + 10 + 9 = 89 cittas in total.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
 

33365

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:43am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4

Lodewijk asked Acharn Sujin how we can know the latent tendencies that are
accumulated in each citta from moment to moment. She answered that when they
condition akusala citta we know that there are latent tendencies. Each time
akusala citta arises and falls away akusala is added to the latent
tendencies. Through the development of satipaììhåna they are gradually
weakened, but they can only be eradicated by lokuttara citta.
We have heard many times that there are three levels of understanding:
understanding stemming from listening and reading, pariyatti, understanding
that is developed through awareness of nåma and rúpa, paìipatti or practice,
understanding of the level of the direct realization of the truth,
pativedha.
Sarah said that while we are reading texts we may become absorbed in them
without any awareness of nåma and rúpa. Realities, nåma and rúpa, appear all
the time, but mostly we are only thinking about them. We were reminded time
and again by Acharn Sujin that we should know that there is dhamma at this
moment, a reality with its own characteristic. If we have merely theoretical
knowledge, we know only the names of realities.
One of our friends asked how we should study Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that
listening and considering are conditions for the understanding of the
Dhamma. He wondered whether there are other conditions for the development
of right understanding apart from listening. Can one do something else about
it? Acharn Sujin explained that each moment is conditioned and that wishing
to do something specific in order to have more moments of satipatthåna is
only thinking, a nåma that is conditioned. Listening helps to understand
conditions for each moment that arises.
We read in the Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, §
2, ³On hearing Dhamma²):

Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What five?
He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes
straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these are the
five advantages from hearing Dhamma.

As we read in the text, he purges things heard. The Thai translation has: he
clearly understands what he has heard. This means that we should not listen
passively, but investigate what we hear, consider it again and again so that
we gain more understanding of the Dhamma. So long as we have not attained
enlightenment doubt about nåma and rúpa is bound to arise, but right
understanding can eliminate doubt. We read that he makes straight his view.
We have wrong view of realities, we believe that they last and we take them
for self. By listening and considering paññå can grow so that there is less
wrong view, our view can be straightened. We read that his heart becomes
calm. The Thai translation has: the citta of the person who listens will
have confidence. When there is more understanding of the Dhamma, confidence
in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha will grow.
****
Nina.
	

	


33366

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 7:09am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 5/26/04 1:46:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> One of our friends asked how we should study Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that
> listening and considering are conditions for the understanding of the
> Dhamma. He wondered whether there are other conditions for the development
> of right understanding apart from listening. Can one do something else about
> it? Acharn Sujin explained that each moment is conditioned and that wishing
> to do something specific in order to have more moments of satipatthåna is
> only thinking, a nåma that is conditioned. Listening helps to understand
> conditions for each moment that arises.
> 
====================
What about wishing to listen and consider? Is that not specific? If 
that can occur, why not wishing to maintain mindful awareness, or wishing to 
maintain concentration on a meditation subject for the purpose of samatha 
bhavana? (And by "wishing" I don't mean idle desire, but volitionally directing 
attention.)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33367

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:34pm
Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams

Hello Victor, all,

This is a strange and interesting sutta. It was a comfort to read 
the sutta and detect a far echo of whatever mechanisms bring my 
murky and rather pointless feelings and dreams to the surface. 
Thank you.

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Christine and all,
> 
> I thought you might find this interesting:
> Anguttara Nikaya V.196
> Supina Sutta
> Dreams
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-196.html
> 
> Some people do have intuition and vision about the future.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
	
33368

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:36pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hello Howard, all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
"But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and
conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of 
momentariness (or,
better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is 
the core of
the Dhamma as I see it."

I appreciate your post Howard - and think it is the answer in many 
cases of 'psychic' predictions. I just can't make it fit around my 
having a dream in advance of receiving any actual information 
whatsoever about a place,people or event. The dream came months 
before I'd even heard of the place, seen the building, considered 
applying for work in that sector, or any conditions existed for the 
vacancy to occur. As with the feelings in advance of any event 
affecting loved ones - I also can't make it fit with 
some 'unconscious' collating of available information. Often I 
haven't seen the person for months, and have scanty knowledge of 
their current relationships or daily life. In your example of typing 
the letter, or taking a step, there is an unbroken chain of events 
and a known intention. Not so, in my examples.

Conditionality is:
"When this exists, that comes to be;"
"With the arising of this, that arises."
"When this does not exist, that does not come to be;"
"With the cessation of this, that ceases."

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33369

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:38pm
Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams

Hello RobM, all,

It was good to read Ven. Dhammananda's article. I'm glad to know 
Buddhism recognises prophetic dreams, though my dreams and feelings 
seem rather pointless and hardly fit such a grand description - the 
feelings are certainly of no help in warning anyone ('I've got a 
vague strong feeling that something bad (I don't know what) is going 
to happen to you soon ('I don't know when')). And the dreams seem to 
be of quite pedestrian snippets of future daily life.

I'm not sure how I feel with the explanation that devas are beings 
able to alter our mindstates by activating mental energies and 
inserting symbollic images into dreams. Do you believe that?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...>
	
33370

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:15am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hi, Christine -

In a message dated 5/26/04 3:41:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:

> 
> Hello Howard, all,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> "But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and
> conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of 
> momentariness (or,
> better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is 
> the core of
> the Dhamma as I see it."
> 
> I appreciate your post Howard - and think it is the answer in many 
> cases of 'psychic' predictions. I just can't make it fit around my 
> having a dream in advance of receiving any actual information 
> whatsoever about a place,people or event. The dream came months 
> before I'd even heard of the place, seen the building, considered 
> applying for work in that sector, or any conditions existed for the 
> vacancy to occur. As with the feelings in advance of any event 
> affecting loved ones - I also can't make it fit with 
> some 'unconscious' collating of available information. Often I 
> haven't seen the person for months, and have scanty knowledge of 
> their current relationships or daily life. In your example of typing 
> the letter, or taking a step, there is an unbroken chain of events 
> and a known intention. Not so, in my examples.
> 
> Conditionality is:
> "When this exists, that comes to be;"
> "With the arising of this, that arises."
> "When this does not exist, that does not come to be;"
> "With the cessation of this, that ceases."
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
=======================
I didn't mean to imply by my "answer" that no special abilities are 
involved. I do, indeed, think, they are - specifically, picking up by "psychic 
means" on current conditions that determine, or at least make probable, a 
future event. But I don't think that such precognition is possible until a 
sufficient body of preconditions is in place.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33371

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hello Howard,and all,

I don't regard the occasional dreams and feelings as any special 
ability - but rather as a mild and frustrating affliction over which 
there is no control and for which there seems to be no real 
purpose. I have experienced these precognitions, without 
identifiable preconditions - even if they are only about pointless 
daily tasks and people I have yet to meet ... so ... you see my 
problem with fitting these types of dreams and feelings that 
occasionally occur into what the teachings say about nama and rupa, 
and no set future. It creates this niggling doubt. Maybe I'll put it 
into the 'too hard basket'?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:

> I didn't mean to imply by my "answer" that no special 
abilities are 
> involved. I do, indeed, think, they are - specifically, picking up 
by "psychic 
> means" on current conditions that determine, or at least make 
probable, a 
> future event. But I don't think that such precognition is possible 
until a 
> sufficient body of preconditions is in place.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

>33372

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:24pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2

Hi Howard, and all.

Thanks for these disclaimers Howard. Very interesting and helpful.

H: > disclaimers. 
> One of these is that at times, and we each will have to 
determine for 
> ourself when it is such a time, one may be in such a state that it 
is the 
> better part of valor to "look" just briefly, and to then set aside 
the deeper 
> looking until one is a bit less vulnerable. These times are 
normally rare, and we 
> shouldn't be "too easy" on ourselves, but commom sense should 
prevail.

Ph: Middle way, right. There is a phrase in Japanese that I have 
not yet been able to find a proper English translation for. "Yo-yuu 
aru" - literally having space or room, or used about money for being 
able to afford something, but it's also used to refer to emotional 
space, being able to afford, in a sense, to develop a wholesome state 
of mind. So when people are selfish or cold towards other, we might 
say they do not have "yo-yuu" to be more compassionate, they don't 
have "room" to afford to be a caring person.

So as you say we should be sensitive to how vulnerable we are, and 
how much "room" we have to deal with dukhha head on. This needn't be 
done consciously, of course, just aanother subtle aspect of the ever-
so-subtle middle way.


>A second disclaimer is that cultivation of a mental inclination to 
> lovingkindness, compassion, rejoicing in the welfare of others, and 
equanimity is 
> a praiseworthy practice, particularly if these inclinations don't 
seem to 
> come to one as easily as one would wish. So long as the motives for 
such 
> cultivation seem to be largely wholesome, and not solely as 
a "quick fix" for 
> distress, this is a laudable practice highly recommended by the 
Buddha.

Ph: Absolutely. Becoming aware of how I was practicing Metta in an 
unskillful or "wrong" way will help me to understand it better. Right 
understanding of Brahma-Viharas means right understanding of the 
essence of the Buddha's mind in daily life and interaction with 
others, I think. I continue to contemplate the Brahma-Viharas every 
morning and belong to another Yahoo group devoted exclusively to the 
BVs. 

>The third disclaimer is that "shielding oneself from aversion" in 
the 
> form of hiding from oneself mental (and other) events we'd rather 
not see 
> should not be confused with guarding the senses. Guarding the 
senses, by which I 
> understand the mindful attention to feelings with an eye to short-
circuiting 
> the further development of tanha and upadana, and, if one hasn't 
been sharp 
> enough, to short-circuiting the process as soon thereafter as 
possible, is a 
> worthwhile practice repeatedly recommended by the Buddha. In fact, 
with regard to 
> dealing with very, very serious unwholesome reactions, there were 
circumstances 
> in which the Buddha said that as a last resort, one should even 
rely on a 
> teeth-gritting act of suppression. The Buddha's practice was not 
entirely a 
> passive one, and he did not prescribe exactly the same medicine to 
all patients 
> under all conditions. It varied according to person and 
circumstance.

Ph: This is also a very helpful reminder. I posted the other day 
about things related to sensual ie sexual lust and since then have 
been further considering my reactions. I said that not glancing was a 
form of consideration for the feelings of the other, but realized 
afterwards that there is indeed a guarding of the senses involved. 
Yes, of course, I can take in a woman wearing a mini-skirt and 
leather boots, and perhaps see the flesh of her thighs as mere rupa, 
and the leather as mere rupa, but there is such a high possibility of 
grossly unwholesome considerations that it seems wiser to avert the 
eyes, as long as it's not in an obvious and unnatural way. If it 
sounds prudish, so be it - there is no hostility or contempt towards 
the person involved. When my understanding of paramattha dhammas has 
deepened, when I look I will look and see rupa and not enticing 
thigh. (Hopefully I will not make the error of reaching out with 
interest to examine hardness, temperature etc through body sense!)

So while I expect will continue quite often to shield myself from 
deepening grossly unwholesome attachment, shielding myself from 
aversion is not something I want to do except in the rare cases when 
I know I don't have enough of that "room" mentionned earlier.

Thanks again for those helpful disclaimers.

Metta,
Phil
	
33373

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hi, Christine -

In a message dated 5/26/04 5:58:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:

> 
> Hello Howard,and all,
> 
> I don't regard the occasional dreams and feelings as any special 
> ability - but rather as a mild and frustrating affliction over which 
> there is no control and for which there seems to be no real 
> purpose.
> 
----------------------------------------
Howard:
Yet not everybody does this. In that sense it is a special ability. As 
to control, who knows whether some control couldn't be cultivated.
----------------------------------------
I have experienced these precognitions, without > 
> identifiable preconditions - even if they are only about pointless 
> daily tasks and people I have yet to meet ... so ... you see my 
> problem with fitting these types of dreams and feelings that 
> occasionally occur into what the teachings say about nama and rupa, 
> and no set future. It creates this niggling doubt. Maybe I'll put it 
> into the 'too hard basket'?

---------------------------------------------
Howard:
I didn't make myself clear about preconditions. What I meant was that 
I suspect that a possible future event comes closer and closer to being a 
determined actuality as more and more of the conditions necessary for its 
occurrence arise [I'm speaking here of causal conditioning of a future event, not the 
foretelling of it], and only after that future event is fully determined, or 
sufficiently determined as to make it probable, would it then be possible for 
someone so inclined to be able to foresee it. Moreover, what I'm hypothesizing 
would be going on is that when a possible event is sufficiently determined, a 
"sensitive" is able to detect, most frequently without conscious awareness, 
the already-in-place body of preconditions for the event and, through a complex 
mechanism, to subconsciously infer the event from that body of conditions. (I 
see the entire mental process as being largely subliminal.) The more fully the 
event is determined, the clearer and more reliable would be the precognition. 
The truly psychic element, as I see it, lies in the ability to detect what is 
already in place when it is not readily observable by standard means. Why a 
person would pick up on preconditions for event A but not for event B might be 
determined, I suppose, by kammic inclination and associations.
This, of course, is all just hypothesis on my part. Just words floated 
into cyberspace.
-----------------------------------------------

> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33374

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:15pm
Subject: Meditation (was Re: I have a wonderful wife)

Hi Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> I would not say that meditation may be a complete waste of time for 
> those who speak out against meditation.

I agree with you. Even for the most ardent anti-meditator, meditation 
can be beneficial. Thanks for the correction.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33375

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:43pm
Subject: Devas (was Feelings and Dreams)

Hi Christine and all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:

> I'm not sure how I feel with the explanation that devas are beings 
> able to alter our mindstates by activating mental energies and 
> inserting symbollic images into dreams. Do you believe that?

I would be interested in yours and other's opinions on this question. 
Let's split this question into sections:

Do I believe in devas?
I can't reply with a definite "YES!" because I haven't yet come up 
with a persuasive argument to convince myself. I have no objections 
to the concept of devas and I would like to come up with a logical 
basis for this belief. Does anybody have any suggestions?

Do I believe that devas can sense our mind?
Assuming devas exist, I figure that they are generally wrapped up in 
their own lives as we are in our lives. I figure that they spend as 
much time thinking about us as we do thinking about them (i.e. almost 
none). However, when somebody is sharing merit with a specific deva 
(a lost relative), I see this as analgous to "calling their name" 
which would make them suddenly pay attention. Once they are paying 
attention to us, I believe that they can sense our state of mind. 
When a Buddha exists or somebody (or even better a group of people) 
are radiating metta, I figure that this is like a magnet that 
attracts devas. I figure that they come to "sunbathe in the warmth of 
our thoughts".

Do I believe that devas can influence our thoughts?
When we are awake, our thoughts are conditioned by the strong impact 
of nama, rupa and concepts according to natural decisive support. 
When we are almost asleep, there are fewer strong conditions to 
condition thoughts and this presents an opportunity for weaker 
conditions to condition the arising of thoughts. I figure that on 
rare occasions, a deva (assuming that they exisit), could influence 
our thoughts.

I would be interested in yours and other's opinions.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33376

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:37pm
Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Rob Ep (& Howard),
> 
> --- Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> wrote: >
> > 
> > thank you for making this point so succinctly. you seem clearer than
> > me these days, Howard. I'll have to go on a meditation retreat. : )
> .....
> ....Or hang around more regularly on DSG like Howard does :-)
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> ======
> 
> 

ha ha, that's probably the solution!

: )

best,
robert ep.
_______________________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
	
33377

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau"
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> You wrote:
> ----------------
> V: > Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? 
> Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the 
> Pali Canon?
> 
> In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. 
> They are:
> 1. Association with superior persons
> 2. Hearing the true Dhamma
> 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara]
> 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma
> 
> When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for 
> stream-entry?
> --------------------
> 
> Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha 
> (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha 
> are those you have listed above. They include pariyati 
> (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and 
> patipatti, which is 4. 
> 
> So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that 
> is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would 
> have been correct, too. 
> 
> Do you agree that 1, 2 and 3 lead to 4? 
> 
> While we're on the subject; do you agree that number 4, practice in 
> accordance with the Dhamma, means satipatthana? And do you agree 
> that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be 
> nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas? All of 
> which have the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta? 
> 
> I suppose, for a Once-returner, `practice in accordance with the 
> Dhamma' (patipatti) would include both satipatthana and Path 
> Consciousness (pativedha) at the level of Stream-entry. (?)
> 
> Kind regards,
> Ken H

Hi Ken.
It seems to me that satipatthana would not be "practice" but would be
the fruit of practice. Of course, there is an inclination in
Abhidhamma to remove any definition of practice that involves
"someone" "doing something" and so you can only have the spontaneous
result, not the doing that leads to it. But then why on earth call it
practice? If it is not something that one does, it is not practice at
all, but just a happening which one receives. That is not practice,
but "grace" by another name. It seems to me that if "practice" is
listed as the fourth factor towards enlightenment, this is because
practices including meditation were in fact recommended by the Buddha.
Do you agree that in any case "practice" as a resultant state without
any intervening effort is a rather tortured definition of "practice?"

Best,
Robert Ep.
	
33378

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:41pm
Subject: feeling?

Hi all,

I am sure you all agree that ultimate reality is only found in citta
process. Therefore, if we want to discuss dependent arising in terms of
ultimate reality we must discuss it in terms of citta process. However,
a key turning point in dependent arising is not found in citta process,
namely 'dependent on feeling craving arises'. Where is feeling in citta
process? How does feeling condition the arising of javana cittas? How
does contact condition the arising of feeling in citta process?

Larry
	
33379

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:30pm
Subject: Re: feeling?

Hi Larry,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> I am sure you all agree that ultimate reality is only found in citta
> process. Therefore, if we want to discuss dependent arising in 
terms of
> ultimate reality we must discuss it in terms of citta process. 
However,
> a key turning point in dependent arising is not found in citta 
process,
> namely 'dependent on feeling craving arises'. Where is feeling in 
citta
> process? How does feeling condition the arising of javana cittas? 
How
> does contact condition the arising of feeling in citta process?

I disagree that ultimate realities are only found in the citta 
process. On Monday, I posted the following message:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33260

This message goes through a detailed defintion of each of the 12 
steps of dependent arising describing each of the steps in terms of 
ultimate realities. It describes the conditions linking each of the 
12 steps using the Patthana. It even gives Vism references!

I admit that it was all copied from U Silananda's notes, but I would 
love to discuss specific aspects of this with you.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33380

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:48pm
Subject: Re: feeling?

Hi Larry (again),

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> > I am sure you all agree that ultimate reality is only found in 
citta
> > process. Therefore, if we want to discuss dependent arising in 
> terms of
> > ultimate reality we must discuss it in terms of citta process. 
> However,
> > a key turning point in dependent arising is not found in citta 
> process,
> > namely 'dependent on feeling craving arises'. Where is feeling in 
> citta
> > process? How does feeling condition the arising of javana cittas? 
> How
> > does contact condition the arising of feeling in citta process?
> 
> I disagree that ultimate realities are only found in the citta 
> process. On Monday, I posted the following message:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33260
> 
> This message goes through a detailed defintion of each of the 12 
> steps of dependent arising describing each of the steps in terms of 
> ultimate realities. It describes the conditions linking each of the 
> 12 steps using the Patthana. It even gives Vism references!
> 
> I admit that it was all copied from U Silananda's notes, but I 
would 
> love to discuss specific aspects of this with you.

You asked about how contact conditions feeling and how feeling 
conditions craving. As you can see from the following message:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33261

it is natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya) that is the key!

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33381

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:20am
Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Rob M and Philip, 

RM:> > > Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna
> > >

Ph: > > Does this progression mean that Samadhi is a necessary 
precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without 
Samadhi first? > >

=====

KH: I'm confused too, Rob. Samadhi is a universal cetasika, is it 
not? Why are you talking about sila leading to samadhi leading to 
panna?

Are you referring to samma-samadhi (right concentration)? In that 
case, it should be made clear that it arises with (and dependent 
upon) panna, not before. "As to this (right concentration) right 
understanding comes first." (Mahacattarika-sutta)

------------
Ph to RM: > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation than 
some people here. 
----------------------

KH: It depends on the meaning of meditation. True meditation is a
citta, (it lasts one mind-moment); formal meditation is a concept – 
an idea of meditation. According to that concept, there is an 
activity called meditation that extends over a period of time. This 
is the type that Rob places more emphasis upon.

---------------------
Ph: > > I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is 
seen as a self-driven activity. > > 
----------------------

KH: When formal meditation is spoken of as a self-driven activity, I 
think that means it is undertaken with the intention of gaining 
something for one's self.

------------------------
Ph: > Why can't meditation arise in a conditioned way the same way 
studying or discussing does? >
----------------------

By `conditioned,' I think you mean `not self-driven.' Reading, 
discussing and considering Dhamma can (sometimes) be done without 
being self-driven (without wanting to gain something). I'm not sure 
the same can be said about formal meditation, though. 

In any case, why would we practice formal meditation as part of our 
Dhamma practice? The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors 
for enlightenment. It seems to me that we would be doing so with 
the intention of simulating one of those factors; namely, `practice 
in accordance with the Dhamma.' But practice in accordance with the 
Dhamma is synonymous with insight into the nature of conditioned 
reality: it doesn't mean sitting on a cushion or concentrating on 
concepts.

Rob M wrote:
-----------------------
> Each of us should experiment to determine the best approach for 
ourselves. When members of DSG speak out against meditation, I 
cannot argue with them. Because of their accumulations, meditation 
may be a complete waste of their time. There are many cases in the 
Suttas where people become enlightened without any meditation in 
that existence. >
--------------

KH: There, the suttas are referring to jhana meditation. That is a 
totally different kettle of fish: it is not what people on this list 
mean by formal (non-momentary) meditation.

----------------
RM: > The question of "is meditation the right path" should be 
unasked. 
This question presupposes that there is a "right path" for all 
people. >
----------------

KH: Wouldn't that be a correct supposition? Some suttas refer to 
four paths, but they are simply differentiating the place of jhana 
in our practice. That is, whether jhana is developed 1, before 
vipassana or 2, after vipassana or 3, concurrently with vipassana or 
4, not at all. Is there any other Tipitaka reference to more than 
one right path? 

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33382

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:57am
Subject: Choosing and finding time

Hello all

I'm looking through the Upseful Posts trying to learn about 
Cetana and came across an interesting message from Jon. (#6737) It 
was a short message. It follows in full: 

> --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Nina and Jon, ( no intention
> to exclude others I am unaware of)
> > 
> > Thank you sincerely for the time and effort taken to answer the 
> > question. I often feel that I lack time. There are so many things 
> > which beg for attention, and the days consist of choosing this, 
> > rejecting that as objects for further consideration.



Jon: > Yes, this is life. But even the 'choosing' is just another 
moment of
> intention conditioned by our previous accumulations (and other 
factors). 
> So there is no more control over this moment (ie. to express it in
> convventional terms, over 'what we choose') than over the fact 
that, say,
> we like one flavour but not another. 

Ph: This seems very logical to me. 
I would add that it doesn't mean we can not feel confident that 
wholesome changes will come our way, because our wholesome moments 
condition more of the same, sometimes in quite a predictable way. For 
example, if during my morning Brahma-Viharas contemplation, 
consideration of compassion for people driving arises, when I see 
people driving later in the day, I am far more likely to have a 
friendly, caring feeling towards them. (If you knew more about the 
agnry outbursts I've had towards drivers, you'd know why this is a 
wholesome change!) I don't decide to have that thought during the 
contemplation, but if it arises a wholesome, conditioned echo of it 
later in the day can be predicted - not that there is any value in 
predicting it. 

My point is that even though we are not able to decide to have 
wholesome change, wholesome change is ours for the having, and we 
will have wholesome change if we remain open to the Dhamma in the 
company of good teachers and friends.I know that the notion of not 
having control over one's decisions is not warmly welcomed at a 
general Buddhist forum I've participated in, but in my opinion there 
is no need to feel discouraged by our inability to have control over 
decisions, because ultimately right understanding will make wise 
choices for us. It is a reason for joyful optimism, not existential 
distress or discouragement. 

Jon: > Also, at times when we our lives are 'busy' it is an 
opportunity to see
> whether the realities that arise from moment to moment are in truth 
any
> different from the realities that arise at other times, or whether 
it is
> just our perception that this is so.

Ph: This is very interesing. Like many people, I have always been 
attached to my days off and thought they were the time that I could 
make progress on studying Dhamma, just because I have the opportunity 
to be at home with my books etc. Indeed, it is during my busy days at 
work that I am now filling my little notebooks with observations. Am 
I finding that the same realities arise as when I am having a quiet 
day at home? That is an interesting question that I will look at when 
I go back to work tomorrow. 

The thing I'm still confused about, and the reason I'm looking 
through the Cetana Useful Posts, is why and how the Buddha uses verbs 
such as "strive " and "exert oneself" in the sutta on right effort 
(the 4 exertions). Those verbs sound so intentional. If anyone knows 
off hand of a thread where that was discussed, please let me know. 
Thanks.

Metta,
Phil
	
33383

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Larry,

--- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for the refs. re. 4NT in D.O. My main quandry is that it seems to
> me if lobha is cause and dukkha is result then dukkha is kamma vipaka,
> but Htoo said this wasn't the right way to slice it. Why not?
....
S: As you know, there are different kinds of dukkha. Dukkha is a
characteristic of all conditioned dhammas regardless of whether they are
kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaka. Lobha is a direct and indirect cause.
Lobha is a direct cause of rebirth by way of kamma and other conditions.
Birth is then a condition for the arising of subsequent conditioned
dhammas, for old age and death etc. Lobha is therefore a direct and
indirect cause of these subsequent dhammas. As RobM’s charts show,
conditions are very complicated. 

Without lobha, no further becoming and thereby further dukkha. How’s that?
Any more quandry?

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33384

From: sarahdhhk <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:31am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Victor,

Apologies for putting my comments to you under the wrong 
subject thread - I sometimes do this when I'm rushing. I've tried 
to retrieve the discussion so you can respond as requested 
(off-list). Metta, Sarah
....
S: > *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 
33211), I think we can rightly say that until the attainment of 
arahantship, `there is always ignorance'. The anusaya (latent 
tendency)of ignorance lies `dormant' in each citta and is 
accumulated from citta to citta, even when it doesn't manifest. I 
also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold
path factors being `fabrications' `leading to the cessation of 
craving,thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications'.]

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Howard and all,
> 
> First of all, I would like to correct myself regarding what I said:
> 
> 'As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, 
> attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until 
> 
> "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He 
> discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task 
> done. There is nothing further for this world.'"'
> 
> I want to say that as long as one has not known the Four Noble 
> Truths, there is always ignorance. In other words, ignorance is 
not 
> knowing the Four Noble Truths.
> 
> Craving and clinging are fabrications, specifically, fabrications 
> conditioned by ignorance. Craving leads to clinging and 
clinging 
> give rise to becoming, starting another round of birth, aging, 
and 
> death, giving rise to this whole mass of the dukkha.
> 
> However, with the cessation of ignorance, that is, knowing the 
Four 
> Noble Truths, one undertakes the Noble Eightfold Path that 
leads to 
> the cessation of the dukkha. The Noble Eightfold Path is a 
> fabricated path, and all eight factors of the Path are also 
> fabrications. However, they are the fabrications leading to 
> cessation of craving, thus leading to the cessation of all 
> fabrications.<
	
33385

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Victor,

Thx for persisting on this.

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> 
> So are you saying that there is no contradiction between what the 
> Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated in 
> Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha?
....
S: What I was saying is that you can’t pick out a few words out of context
and make sweeping statements. The teachings are far too subtle and
profound for that. One needs to read them carefully in context, preferably
with the help of commentaries and even sub-commentaries and wise friends.
I tried to give some of this context. That’s all.
....
> Is birth dukkha or not?
....
As you know there are different meanings of dukkha. Sankhara-dukkha is the
characteristic of all sankhara dhammas because ‘they are oppressed by rise
and fall’. So, even the first namas and rupas of life are inherently
dukkha. 

Here, (Vism XV1, 34f) birth refers to ‘the first manifestation of any
aggregates.......called ‘birth’.....It’s characteristic is the first
genesis in any [sphere] of becoming. Its function is to consign [to a
sphere of becoming]. It is manifested as an emerging here from a past
becoming; or it is manifested as the variedness of suffering.

‘But why is it suffering? Because it is the basis for many kinds of
suffering...’

S: We cannot say that it is all these ‘many kinds of suffering’, but
without birth, the intrinsic suffering (dukkha dukkha), suffering in
change (viparinmana dukkha) and suffering due to formations (sa’nkhaara
dukkha) and so on as manifesting in subsequent dhammas would not appear.
So it is the basis for all suffering only. 

n8 in the Vism gives the following from the Tiika (Pm):

‘ ‘Because it is the basis for many kinds of suffering’, etc, shows that
this birth is not called suffering because of having suffering as its
individual essence - for there is no rebirth-linking associated with
painful feeling - but rather because it is the foundation for suffering’
(Pm 528).’

Victor, your question is a good one. I can only say that I take birth here
as the ‘the first manifestation etc...’. More qus I know. I’ve also found
some difference in the two translations, but don’t have access or
knowledge of the Pali to check further. Nina or others may help further
with the texts if this doesn't satisfy.

Metta,

Sarah


	
33386

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 2:36am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor, (Nina, Howard, Jon in passing)

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> 
> Let me add a bit more.
> 
> Jon did not answer the question at all. 
<...>

> Nina did not answer the question either. ...
<..>
> I asked the questions again, but it is ok with me if she does not 
> want to respond to it directly and straightforwardly.
....
S: Let me try taking a step backwards here .... As I just said the
teachings are very profound as I’m sure you’ll agree as well. Sometimes we
may think we are answering someone’s questions (I’m sure you have this
experience too - perhaps with Howard’s) but the questioner doesn’t think
the questions have been answered at all. Personally, I understood the
others’ replies and found them helpful(no surprise there, I know). I also
tried to give my own elaborations and to check if we were on the same page
at all, I asked you a few questions, all of which you ignored. As you say,
that is ok. No one ever needs to feel obliged to respond and if they do
respond, as you did, it’s one’s option whether to do so ‘directly and
straightforwardly’, indirectly, or ignoring the main content of a post as
I feel you’ve done with our efforts;-). 

However we respond or don’t respond, all that is of any real importance
are the mind-states and good intentions. If we mind about the others in
the sense of having expectations or clinging to a certain kind of response
or wishing to have our point accepted, then it isn’t helpful. I’m sure we
all do this at times. Sometimes we’re misunderstood or our good intentions
are not appreciated as well. I’m sure you find this often. As Nina quoted
K.Sujin as saying ‘kusala can be purer when we are not engaged in thinking
about what others do or say’. I always find this a helpful reminder, not
just with troublesome family members, but in our day to day interactions
as well.

Not meaning to change the subject or hijack another thread, but I wished
to say that I liked your quote to Hans on Kusala Sutta (Skillful), AN
11.19:

“Abandon what is unskillful, monks.....
<....>
“Develop what is skillful, monks.....
<.....>

A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or developing
in terms of the khandhas?

Thanks for helping me to consider many points further.

Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33387

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 2:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Howard & Jack,

--- upasaka@a... wrote: 
> =======================
> What is *inherently* wrong with rising and falling? My answer: 
> NOTHING! 
...
S: I don’t think anyone has said there is anything wrong with rising and
falling. It’s just the way dhammas are, just as they are anatta too. As
Jon wrote (33231 on Dukkha and the 3 characteristics):

>The 3 characteristics are characteristics that *pertain to* dhammas. In
the course of the development of insight, individual dhammas are gradually
known to a higher and higher degree, both as to their particular (unique)
characteristic and as to the 3 characteristics they share in common with
all conditioned dhammas. This development continues, until, at the
attainment of full enlightenment, these characteristics are fully
penetrated.<

S: In other words, there is no anicca, dukkha and anatta outside of the
dhammas to be known by the development of insight. They are
characteristics of these dhammas.

>But that doesn't mean that phenomena that won't hold still are
> worthy of 
> being grasped at. 
...
S: Why not? Because of their impermanence they cannot bring or be of any
happiness.
...
Of course they are not. And attempting to grasp them,
> to hold 
> onto them and not let them go, is to suffer. Sankhata dhamma are
> *conditions* 
> for unhappiness, 
....
S: Yes, they are conditions for unhappiness and are inherently
unsatisfactory too. How else do you understand ‘sabbe sankhara
anicca...dukkha....anatta’. Surely this doesn’t mean they are conditions
for impermanence, conditions for dukkha and conditions for anatta?
....
>but, as you well know, more than one condition is
> required for 
> the arising of a dhamma, and in the case of mental pain, the
> impermanence of 
> dhammas isn't enough to constitute a cause - there must also be craving
> or 
> grasping. 
...
S: Agreed. But when the texts are referring to the characteristics of all
conditioned dhammas, we are not just referring to mental pain.
....
>With the end of the three poisons, dukkha ceases, though
> dhammas, all 
> unworthy of being grasped at, continue to rise and fall.
...
S: Certainly mental pain (domanassa and dosa) cease. But the dhammas,
unworthy of being grasped at (even by others), rise and fall and remain
anicca, dukkha and anatta. The characteristics of all conditioned dhammas
to be understood don’t change.

We agree that when the kilesa (defilements) are eradicated, there is no
further mental anguish. I’m not sure why you and Jack interpret the
meaning of the universal characteristics as you do. Any suttas to look at?

Metta,

Sarah
====


	
33388

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:00am
Subject: Re: Devas (was Feelings and Dreams)

Hello RobM, all,

My mind would have no difficulty in accepting the existence of 
devas. One, it is recorded that the Buddha taught Dhamma to them 
and spoke about them. Two, because all cultures that have existed 
have some form of other worldly being in their stories, myths and 
religions. But I don't think the evidence points to the majority of 
devas having great powers or an interest in assisting human beings. 
Though there was the deva who lectured 'the smell thief' for his own 
good ... 

The Devataasamyutta and the Devaputtasamyutta contain over 120 
suttas concerning Devas and many other Samyuttas contain further 
suttas dealing with Devas, such as the rather unscientific 
Valaahakasamyutta SN32 Connected Discourses on Cloud Devas who spend 
their time revelling in their own kind of delight, creating various 
unusual weather systems.

A couple of extracts about devas: Bhikkhu Bodhi in his Introduction 
to the Samyutta Nikaya says: "Devataa is an abstract noun based on 
deva, but in the Nikaayas it is invariably used to denote particular 
celestial beings, just as the English word "deity", originally an 
abstract noun meaning the divine nature, is normally used to denote 
the supreme God of theistic religions or an individual god or 
goddess of polytheistic faiths. Though the word is feminine, the 
gender comes from the abstract suffix -taa and does not necessarily 
mean the devataas are female. The texts rarely indicate their sex, 
though it seems they can be of either sex and perhaps sometimes 
beyond sexual differentiation. For Buddhism the devas are not 
immortal gods exercising a creative role in the cosmic process. 
They are simply elevated beings, blissful and luminous, who had 
previously dwelt in the human world but had been reborn in the 
celestial planes as the fruit of their meritorious deeds. With rare 
exceptions they are just as much in bondage to delusion and desire 
as human beings, and they equally stand in need of guidance from the 
Enlightened One. The Buddha is the "teacher of devas and humans" 
(satthaa devamanussaana.m), and though squarely established in the 
human world he towers above the most exalted deities by reason of 
his supreme wisdom and perfect purity."

=================

Dr. V. A. Gunasekara in "The Buddhist Attitude to God" speaks of the 
existence of category of beings called devas. "This term is 
generally translated as "gods" (with a simple `g' and in the 
plural). The term deva literally means a shining or radiant being, 
and describes their physical appearance rather than their 
supernatural powers (as the translation "gods" seems to imply). To 
prevent confusion with the notion of a supreme personal God we shall 
refer to these beings of Buddhist cosmology as devas. Many other 
religions also postulate the existence of non-human beings who are 
referred to as `gods' or `angels' if they are considered to be in a 
better position than humans (with respect to their material 
conditions of existence). Buddhist cosmology recognises 32 planes of 
existence some of the higher planes being either states of 
meditative abstraction or actual domains for the devas. Generally we 
have direct experience of only two of these 32 planes (those of 
humans and animals). Planes of existence below these two realms are 
also said to exist and are characterised by greater degrees of 
suffering and discomfort. The actual physical location of these 
planes need not concern us here because the dimensions of the 
Buddhist universe are even greater than those envisaged by modern 
astronomy and will contain enough places to accommodate all these 
planes of existence. 

We can easily dispose of the devas in the context of the Buddhist 
attitude to God because the devas are essentially irrelevant to the 
human situation. Beings are born in the deva-worlds because of 
particular karmic factors they have accumulated, and after these 
karmic factors are exhausted they could revert to any of the other 
planes of existence depending on their unexpended karma. The devas 
are not particularly endowed with special powers to influence 
others, and far from saving anyone else they themselves are 
not "saved". Salvation in Buddhism comes only from full 
enlightenment, which could be best accomplished from the human plane 
of existence." http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/bsqtr10.htm 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Christine and all,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
> <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure how I feel with the explanation that devas are 
beings 
> > able to alter our mindstates by activating mental energies and 
> > inserting symbollic images into dreams. Do you believe that?
> 
> I would be interested in yours and other's opinions on this 
question. 
> Let's split this question into sections:
> 
> Do I believe in devas?
> I can't reply with a definite "YES!" because I haven't yet come up 
> with a persuasive argument to convince myself. I have no 
objections 
> to the concept of devas and I would like to come up with a logical 
> basis for this belief. Does anybody have any suggestions?
> 
> Do I believe that devas can sense our mind?
> Assuming devas exist, I figure that they are generally wrapped up 
in 
> their own lives as we are in our lives. I figure that they spend 
as 
> much time thinking about us as we do thinking about them (i.e. 
almost 
> none). However, when somebody is sharing merit with a specific 
deva 
> (a lost relative), I see this as analgous to "calling their name" 
> which would make them suddenly pay attention. Once they are paying 
> attention to us, I believe that they can sense our state of mind. 
> When a Buddha exists or somebody (or even better a group of 
people) 
> are radiating metta, I figure that this is like a magnet that 
> attracts devas. I figure that they come to "sunbathe in the warmth 
of 
> our thoughts".
> 
> Do I believe that devas can influence our thoughts?
> When we are awake, our thoughts are conditioned by the strong 
impact 
> of nama, rupa and concepts according to natural decisive support. 
> When we are almost asleep, there are fewer strong conditions to 
> condition thoughts and this presents an opportunity for weaker 
> conditions to condition the arising of thoughts. I figure that on 
> rare occasions, a deva (assuming that they exisit), could 
influence 
> our thoughts.
> 
> I would be interested in yours and other's opinions.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33389

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:56am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Rob Ep,

----------------------
R: > It seems to me that satipatthana would not be "practice" but 
would be the fruit of practice. >
----------------------------

You may have missed the lead-up to this conversation, Rob. We had 
been discussing the factors leading to enlightenment --
`enlightenment' in the sense of `direct experience of Nibbana.' The 
last of the four factors leading to enlightenment was `practice in 
accordance with the Dhamma.' 

As we know, the Dhamma declares all reality, apart from Nibbana, to 
be conditioned and to have the characteristics anicca, dukkha and 
anatta. The practice is to directly see the truth of this 
teaching. Directly seeing the truth of conditioned reality is 
called, satipatthana. Extensive satipatthana leads to dispassion, 
renunciation and relinquishment -- with regard to conditioned 
reality. As a result, the only unconditioned reality, Nibbana, 
becomes the object of consciousness. I think, at this stage, direct 
experience becomes what you would call the fruit of the practice. 
It is also called Path Consciousness or sometimes `vipassana' but 
not, strictly speaking, `satipatthana.' 

---------------------------
R: > Of course, there is an inclination in Abhidhamma to remove any 
definition of practice that involves "someone" "doing something" and 
so you can only have the spontaneous result, not the doing that 
leads to it. >
---------------------------

`Spontaneous' is a bad choice of word here. Ultimately, as you say, 
there is no "someone doing something" but nothing is spontaneous; 
everything that arises does so from a cause. 

-------------------------
R: > But then why on earth call it practice? If it is not something 
that one does, it is not practice at all, but just a happening which 
one receives. That is not practice, but "grace" by another name. >
-------------------------

Hold on there, Rob! "Someone doing something" is one 
extreme, "someone receiving grace" is the other. The Abhidhamma has 
no truck with either extreme. It deals with the middle (the 
ultimate) reality in which there are dhammas that are arising, 
performing their functions and falling away.

--------------------------
R: > It seems to me that if "practice" is listed as the fourth 
factor towards enlightenment, this is because practices including 
meditation were in fact recommended by the Buddha.
--------------------------

Practice in the form of satipatthana, yes. The other three factors 
are not practice but they are conditions for practice. They are, 
association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and wise 
consideration of the true Dhamma. (No mention of formal meditation.)

When you rightly say, "recommended by the Buddha," that begs the 
questions; "Recommended to whom? Who hears? Who considers? With 
what beings do they associate? " In the middle ground known as 
ultimate reality there are no beings to give or carry out 
recommendations, there are only dhammas. The Middle Way is the 
arising of eight supramundane dhammas known as Path Factors. 

-----------------
R: > Do you agree that in any case "practice" as a resultant state 
without any intervening effort is a rather tortured definition 
of "practice?" >
------------------------------

Right effort is an integral part of the practice and, appropriately, 
it arises with it, not separately. So no, I don't agree. Far from 
being tortured, the explanation of momentary reality is beautiful. 

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33390

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:39am
Subject: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Sarah,

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thx for persisting on this.


I think you are persisting on this thread as well. :-)


> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> > 
> > So are you saying that there is no contradiction between what 
the 
> > Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated 
in 
> > Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha?
> ....
> S: What I was saying is that you can't pick out a few words out of 
context
> and make sweeping statements. 



So you are not saying that there is no contradiction between what 
the Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated 
in Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha.

Given the quote you provided, in Sammohavinodani it is stated that 
birth is itself not dukkha. What is stated in Sammohavinodani that 
birth is itself not dukkha is in direct contradiction to what the 
Buddha taught that birth is dukkha.

The context of the statement "birth is itself not dukkha" in 
Sammohavinodani does not lead to the conclusion that birth is 
dukkha. On the other hand, the Noble Truths of the Dukkha does not 
mean that birth is not dukkha.




The teachings are far too subtle and
> profound for that. 


I would say that if one do not understand that birth is dukkha, then 
one would not understand the Teaching correctly, let alone its 
subtle and profound aspects.



One needs to read them carefully in context, preferably
> with the help of commentaries and even sub-commentaries and wise 
friends.


Yet the commentary Sammohavinodani contradicts what the Buddha 
taught that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. 
Instead of helping one understand the Dhamma, the commentary 
Sammohavinodani misleads and misrepresents with the 
statements "birth is itself not dukkha," "old age is itself not 
dukkha," " death is itself not dukkha."




> I tried to give some of this context. That's all.
> ....
> > Is birth dukkha or not?
> ....
> As you know there are different meanings of dukkha. Sankhara-
dukkha is the
> characteristic of all sankhara dhammas because `they are oppressed 
by rise
> and fall'. So, even the first namas and rupas of life are 
inherently
> dukkha. 



So is birth dukkha or not?



> 
> Here, (Vism XV1, 34f) birth refers to `the first manifestation of 
any
> aggregates.......called `birth'.....It's characteristic is the 
first
> genesis in any [sphere] of becoming. Its function is to consign 
[to a
> sphere of becoming]. It is manifested as an emerging here from a 
past
> becoming; or it is manifested as the variedness of suffering.
> 
> `But why is it suffering? Because it is the basis for many kinds 
of
> suffering...'
> 
> S: We cannot say that it is all these `many kinds of suffering', 
but
> without birth, the intrinsic suffering (dukkha dukkha), suffering 
in
> change (viparinmana dukkha) and suffering due to formations 
(sa'nkhaara
> dukkha) and so on as manifesting in subsequent dhammas would not 
appear.
> So it is the basis for all suffering only. 
> 
> n8 in the Vism gives the following from the Tiika (Pm):
> 
> ` `Because it is the basis for many kinds of suffering', etc, 
shows that
> this birth is not called suffering because of having suffering as 
its
> individual essence - for there is no rebirth-linking associated 
with
> painful feeling - but rather because it is the foundation for 
suffering'
> (Pm 528).'
> 
> Victor, your question is a good one. 



And it is a direct one. 



I can only say that I take birth here
> as the `the first manifestation etc...'. 


I am not asking about what you take as birth.


Sarah: More qus I know. 


For now it is the question:

Is birth dukkha or not?

You don't have to answer it though.



I've also found
> some difference in the two translations, but don't have access or
> knowledge of the Pali to check further. 




Perhaps the translation of Sammohavinodani you provided is 
erroneous. 




Nina or others may help further
> with the texts if this doesn't satisfy.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah


Metta,
Victor
	
33391

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 6:23am
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Sarah,

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor, (Nina, Howard, Jon in passing)
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> > 
> > Let me add a bit more.
> > 
> > Jon did not answer the question at all. 
> <...>
> 
> > Nina did not answer the question either. ...
> <..>
> > I asked the questions again, but it is ok with me if she does 
not 
> > want to respond to it directly and straightforwardly.
> ....
> S: Let me try taking a step backwards here .... As I just said the
> teachings are very profound as I'm sure you'll agree as well. 
Sometimes we
> may think we are answering someone's questions (I'm sure you have 
this
> experience too - perhaps with Howard's) but the questioner doesn't 
think
> the questions have been answered at all. 
Personally, I understood the
> others' replies and found them helpful(no surprise there, I know). 
I also
> tried to give my own elaborations and to check if we were on the 
same page
> at all, I asked you a few questions, all of which you ignored. As 
you say,
> that is ok. No one ever needs to feel obliged to respond and if 
they do
> respond, as you did, it's one's option whether to do so `directly 
and
> straightforwardly', indirectly, or ignoring the main content of a 
post as
> I feel you've done with our efforts;-). 




Let me put it this way:

Suppose I asked someone: "Have you had dinner tonight?" And he 
replied: "I usually have steak for dinner, with mashed potatos and 
green beans" and went on describing the details of what he usually 
has for dinner. Since his reply has nothing to do with what I 
asked, then I asked again "So have you had dinner tonight?" And he 
went on with what he likes for dinner, the best dinner he's ever had.

While I understood his reply, it had nothing to do with the 
question "Have you had dinner tonight?" and the answer to this 
question is simply either an affirmative "Yes, I have had dinner 
tonight" or a negative "No, I haven't had dinner tonight" or if he 
did not know, he could reply "I am not sure"/"I don't know."



> 
> However we respond or don't respond, all that is of any real 
importance
> are the mind-states and good intentions. If we mind about the 
others in
> the sense of having expectations or clinging to a certain kind of 
response
> or wishing to have our point accepted, then it isn't helpful. I'm 
sure we
> all do this at times. Sometimes we're misunderstood or our good 
intentions
> are not appreciated as well. I'm sure you find this often. As Nina 
quoted
> K.Sujin as saying `kusala can be purer when we are not engaged in 
thinking
> about what others do or say'. I always find this a helpful 
reminder, not
> just with troublesome family members, but in our day to day 
interactions
> as well.
> 
> Not meaning to change the subject or hijack another thread, but I 
wished
> to say that I liked your quote to Hans on Kusala Sutta (Skillful), 
AN
> 11.19:
> 
> "Abandon what is unskillful, monks.....
> <....>
> "Develop what is skillful, monks.....
> <.....>
> 
> A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or 
developing
> in terms of the khandhas?




I am not sure what your question mean. As I see it, the question is 
not formulated properly in grammar.




> 
> Thanks for helping me to consider many points further.


Hopefully I did.

Metta,
Victor



> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> =====
	
33392

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:21am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 012 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta can still be classified depending on what it does. Some citta 
does the job of linking cuti citta or dying consciousness with the 
first bhavanga citta of next life. This citta is called patisandhi 
citta or linking consciousness.

Bhavanga is made up of 'bhava' and 'anga'. Bhava means existence or 
life while anga means part. So bhavanga means 'part of life'. So 
bhavanga cittas are all part of a life while vithi cittas are another 
part of a life.

Vithi means 'series' 'in serial' 'each in turn with eact place or 
time'. Vithi cittas are consciousness or cittas that arise in the 
order of exact series. Vithi cittas in our daily life can be assumed 
as conscious mind.

All cittas in a conventionally defined life are part of that life. So 
all cittas are bhvanga or anga of bhava or part of life. But very 
initial citta is called patisandhi citta as it functions as linking.

Pati means 'again'. Sandhi means 'to link'. So patisandhi 
means 'linking again'. In a life the first citta is called patisandhi 
citta or linking consciousness. The last citta in a life is also a 
part of bhava or life and it is bhavanga. But its function is to 
release the current life or to leave the current life or to end the 
current life. So the last citta which is also a part of life 
(bhavanga) is called cuti citta or dying consciousness.

This is why patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta are all 
the same in terms of realms where they arise ( bhumi or realm or 
plane of existence ), in terms of origin or jati that is they all are 
vipaka cittas, in terms of sankhara dhamma that is those dhamma that 
are conditioning these three kinds of citta, in terms of sampayutta 
dhamma that is accompanying dhamma, and in terms of the object they 
take or arammana ( object ). 

All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga ) but they always 
come in the exact order and always follow the rule while bhavanga 
cittas always come in continuous flow like flowing rivers ( sota or 
river ). So vithi cittas have got the name vithi citta because of 
their character of arising in the exact order unlike bhavanga citta 
which always flow without interruption.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33393

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:44am
Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Dhamma is wider, larger, and deeper than great oceans. There are various kind of dhamma and dhamma should all be well learned. Dhamma has its own attributes. It is good to start and it is good while at the middle and it is still equally good at the end.

Dhamma is good at the start. When we first heard real dhamma, our old wrong views had to be left far behind as soon as real dhamma has been started to be learned. Then we continued to learn dhamma with non-withdrawing effort while at the same time we felt goodness of dhamma.

Dhamma is good while at the middle of anywhere. Staying with dhamma always makes us peaceful and help us well calm and cool. While we are practising dhamma, at the time of practising, we all can feel dhamma as it is meant to be.

Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta phala citta.

Arahatta phala cittas are lokuttara dhamma and they all see nibbana as their object. Dhamma ends with goodness as it starts with goodness and as long as we are staying in Dhamma we are in goodness.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing 
htootintnaing@y... 





	
33394

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 9:03am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 013 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta can also be classified according to what it does. There are 
many functions that citta can perform as its function. A life as 
defined by the conventional sense actually constitutes uncountable 
cittas.

All cittas that constitutes a life are each a part of that life. 
Vithi cittas are also part of a life. But as vithi cittas abide the 
rule that they arise in the exact order, all these cittas have got 
the name vithi cittas. But actually they all are also part of that 
life.

Vithi cittas come in series. They arise in series. First, the 1st 
citta arises. Its initiation is called upada. Upada means 'arising'. 
Anything that exists when they exists is called to be in the state of 
thi. Thiti means exist, live, stay, stand, situate. When the 1st 
citta arises, it exists. It arising sub-moment is called upada and 
its existing sub-moment is called thi. 

Then it vanishes. Its disappearance is called bhanga. Bhanga 
means 'die' 'disappear' 'destroyed' 'fade away' 'fall away' 'pass 
away'. Any citta just exists. Their arising is in sub-moment called 
upada-khana, their existing sub-moment is called thi-khana, and their 
moment of passing away is called bhanga-khana. 

These three sub-moments upada, thi, and bhanga are called cittakkhana 
and three sub-moments are called anukhana. Khana means 'a moment'.

First the 1st citta arises. It passes away. Next citta arises. Again 
it passes away. Depending on the clarity of the object or arammana, 
the number of vithi cittas that arise as a series varies. Rupa or 
material lives longer than citta. Citta lives shorter than rupa or 
material. When the life of a rupa is compared with a citta, rupas are 
seen to live 17 times the citta's life. 

As there are 17 cittakkhana or 17 moments, there will be 51 anukhanas 
or 51 sub-moments. At their arising, rupa are not so clear as to give 
rise as an arammana or object because initiation of rupa is so weak 
to give rise to as an object even in the clearest object.

In a rupa there is 1 anukhana or sub-moment called upada or rupa. 
Then it is followed by 49 anukhanas and then ends with 1 bhanga 
anukhana. 

In a given time when there is no sense impression or no object citta 
arises as bhavanga citta and they are flowing as a river. When 
bhavanga citta are arising, if an object of the clearest quality 
arise and hit one of 5 sense receptor or one of 5 pasada rupa, no 
vithi citta can arise as bhavanga cittas are there.

At the 1st anukhana or upadakhana or initiation of object rupa and 
initiation of pasada rupa, the existing bhavanga citta passes away 
and rupas continue to their thikhana. Passing away bhavanga citta is 
called atita bhavanga citta. Atita means 'past' or 'the past'.

As bhavanga cittas are very rapidly flowing like a running man, they 
cannot stop suddenly. If running man is ordered to stop, he will only 
be able to stop after a few steps. Like that, when a sense impression 
arises, after passing away of atita bhavanga, another 2 bhavanga 
cittas have to arise. 

The first one is engaged but cannot sense the object and it is like a 
vibrated water surface and called bhavanga calana citta. Calana 
means 'vibrating' 'shaking' 'quivering' 'quaking'. The last bhavanga 
citta is called bhavangupaccheda citta. Upaccheda means 'cut' 'stop'. 
Because after this citta, vithi citta starts to arise. 

As there are 17 cittakkhanas in a rupa, as 3 cittakkhana were 
occupied by 3 bhavanga cittas, there left 14 cittakkhanas. If the 
object is with the clearest quality, then all 14 cittakkhanas will be 
occupied by vithi cittas. There are 7 kinds of vithi citta. They are 
1.avajjana citta or contemplating consciousness, 2.vinnana or sense-
consciousness, 3.sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness, 
4.santirana citta or investigating consciousness, 5.votthapana citta 
or determining consciousness 6.javana citta or impulsive 
consciousness, 7.tadarammana citta or retenting consciousness.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33395

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:13am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 014 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There are 7 vithi cittas. They are 1.avajjana citta, 2.pancavinnana 
citta, 3.sampaticchana citta, 4. santirana citta, 5. votthapana 
citta, 6. javana citta, and 7.tadarammana citta.

There are 17 cittakkhanas. When an object which is a rupa arises, it 
stays for 17 cittakkhanas. In the 1st cittakkhana, rupa is not strong 
enough to give rise to as an arammana or object. Only at the 4th 
cittakkhana, vithi citta can arise even in the case of the clearest 
object. The first 3 cittakkhanas are occupied by 3 bhavanga cittas.

The first vithi citta is avajjana citta. Here 'avajjana' is made up 
of 'arammana or aa' and 'vajjana'. Arammana means object that sense 
organ can perceive and giving rise to sense-consciousness. Vajjana 
means 'contemplating' 'considering' 'checking'. Avajjana 
means 'checking the arammana'.

There are 2 cittas which function as avajjana citta. They are 
pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta.

Pancadvara avajjana citta is the citta that contemplates on the 
arammana checking which door it comes through. Pancadvara means five 
doors. These five doors are 5 sense doors of eye, ear, nose, tongue, 
and body. Manodvaravajjana citta contemplates on arammana that arises 
at manodvara.

Manodvara means 'the door of mind'. In a life, there are many cittas 
starts with patisandhi citta and ends with cuti citta. In between are 
cittas which may be bhavanga cittas when there is no sense impression 
or vithi cittas when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana 
or sense impression has appeared.

Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. In between 
is filled with all bhavanga cittas. But depending on kamma vipaka 
cittas have to arise as vithi citta. Most of the time cittas are 
bhavanga cittas. These are intervened with vithi citta. These vithi 
cittas come through a door. That door is manodvara or mind sense-
door. It is the last bhavanga citta just before vithi citta arises. 
So bhavangupaccheda citta may be assumed as manodvara or mind sense-
door.

When in bhavanga cittas, there is no active thinking. There is no 
thought apart from components of bhavanga citta. When a dhammarammana 
arises or mind object arise, bhavanga cittas have to give way to 
vithi citta. Due to arising of dhammarammana, existing bhavanga 
becomes vibrated and next bhavanga which is the last bhavanga arises 
and passes away. Through that door, dhammarammana or mind object 
comes in and manodvaravajjana citta arises.

Manodvaravajjana contemplates on the object and passes away. 
Pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta do the job of 
avajjana or contemplating on arammana what kind they are what they 
are what they are like and what they mean. The function is avajjana 
and performing citta may be pancadvaravajjana citta if the object is 
pancarammana or one of 5-senses and manodvaravajjana citta if the 
object is mind object.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	

 	 

	
33396

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:41am
Subject: Tiika Vis 79, note 33. no 2.

Tiika Vis 79, no 2.
Note 33(part of this Tiika), to the Vis. text: <But what is born [now] of
consciousness and
[now] of temperature is called 'born of two'. That is the sound base
only.>

N: remarks about Note 33: There are different opinions about sound. Some
teachers think that, when originated by citta, it must always be cognizable,
others believe that sound is purely mental. For us today these debates may
not be very relevant, but at that time it was an issue, as we shall see in
the Kathaavatthu and its Co. The Great Commentary is the authoritive
Commentary that Buddhaghosa found in the Great Monastery and that he
translated from Singhala into Pali.
Text: ' "The sound base only": here some say, "The consciousness-born is
always intimative (savi~n~nattika)". The Ancients say, "There is sound due
to the intervention (vipphaara) of applied thought that does not intimate".
N: Applied thought and discursive thought (vitakka and vicaara) are
cetasikas that play their part in the uttering of speech sound. The word
vipphaara is to be translated as vibration, irradiation or manifestation.
In the Kathaavatthu Ch IX, 93, we read about a controversy concerning sound
as purely mental, as irradiation or manifestation of applied thought. This
idea stems from a wrong interpretation of M.S., sutta 44, 301:< Having first
had initial thought and discursive thought, one subsequently utters a
speech, therefore initial and discursive thought is activity of speech.>
In the ³Debates Commentary² (Co to the Kathaavatthu, p. 147) we read about
the refutation of this theory hold by the Pubbaseliyas. The Sakavaadin
(Theravada) shows that there is auditory consciousness also and thus, the
controversy about sound as purely mental is ended.
Text: While depending on the word of the Great Commentary that
puts it thus, "Intimatable (cognizable) through the ear by means of the
sound due to applied thought's intervention", still there is also need
of the arising of consciousness-originated sound without intimation
(cognition) for because of the words "For the intimation (cognition) is
not due to intimating speech" (?), it arises together with sound not
intimatable (cognizable) through the ear.
N: I would translate adhippaaya by meaning, instead of intention. The
translation here is incomplete: < Because he said that there is no
intimation (vi~n~natti), namely bodily and verbal intimation, it arises
together with sound not audible through the ear. >

Text: That being so, there would have to be a consciousness-born
sound-ennead (navaka, group of nine rupas).
N: This group would consist of the eight inseparable rupas and sound. Thus
without the rupa that is speech intimation. Whereas the decad of speech
intimation, vací-viññatti, is a group of ten rúpas. They are the eight
inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas), speech intimation (vacíviññatti) and
sound (sadda rúpa). These rúpas originate from citta when one normally
speaks and in that case the rúpa of speech intimation is the condition for
the arising of speech sound. >

Text: And that theory is rejected by the Sanghakaaras who imagine that it is
self-contradictory to say that there is sound not cognizable through the
ear. Others, however, do not reject the Great Commentary's statement and
they comment on its intention. How?
[They say that] the non-intimation (non-cognition) through the ear of
the sound activated due to applied thought's intervention is stated in
the Suttas with this intention, "He tells by hearing with the divine ear
the subtle sound that is conascent with the intimation, originated by
applied thought, and consisting in movement of the tongue and palate,
and so on" (cf. A.i,171),
N: See Gradual Sayings, book of the Threes Ch 60, § 5, about
thought-reading. He judges by the sound he has heard some one else¹s citta.

Text:..and that in the Pa.t.thaana (P.tn.1,7) the state of object condition
for ear-consciousness is stated with reference to gross sound' (Pm. 460.)
(end Note 33)

****
Tiika text: 
This is born of four. As to the expression, that is all the rest, he said
that the element of space is together with the (eight) inseparable rúpas.

N: The eight inseparable rupas are included in each group of rupas and
space surrounds each group of rupas originated from the four causes, and
thus space is born from the four causes.
*****
--------------------
Vis. 79, Pali:
puna ekaja.m, dvija.m, tija.m, catuja.m, nakutocijaatanti imesa.m vasena
pa~ncavidha.m. tattha kammajameva cittajameva ca ekaja.m naama. tesu
saddhi.m hadayavatthunaa indriyaruupa.m kammajameva. vi~n~nattidvaya.m
cittajameva. ya.m pana cittato ca ututo ca jaata.m, ta.m dvija.m naama, ta.m
saddaayatanameva. ya.m utucittaahaarehi jaata.m, ta.m tija.m naama, ta.m
pana lahutaadittayameva. ya.m catuuhipi kammaadiihi jaata.m, ta.m catuja.m
naama, ta.m lakkha.naruupavajja.m avasesa.m hoti.

Pali-English:
Tiika 79:
Ekato eva jaata.m ekaja.m.
³Born from one², means: only born from one cause.

Nanu ca ekato eva paccayato paccayuppannassa uppatti natthiiti?
Is it not so that there is no arising of what is conditioned by only one
cause?

Sacca.m natthi, ruupajanakapaccayesu ekatoti ayamettha adhippaayo.
True, this does not exist, but here born of one means born by (one of) the
conditions that generate materiality.

Na hi ruupuppatti ruupajanakato a~n~na.m paccaya.m apekkhati.
He does not consider (here) another condition for the arising of materiality
apart from the condition that generates materiality.

Dvijanti-aadiisupi eseva nayo.
As to born of two etc. this is according to the same method.

Imesanti imesa.m pabhedaana.m vasena.
As to the expression, because of these (it is of five kinds), this means,
according to the classification of these.

Kammajamevaati kammato eva jaata.m. Cittajamevaati etthaapi eseva nayo.
As to the expression kamma-born only, this means born solely from kamma.
As to the expression consciousness-born only has here the same meaning.

Cittato ca ututo ca jaatanti kaalena cittato, kaalena ututoti eva.m cittato
ca ututo ca jaata.m da.t.thabba.m.
As to the expression born from consciousness and from temperature, this
should be understood as sometimes born from consciousness and sometimes born
from temperature.

Ta.m dvija.m dviihi jaatanti. Parato dviisupi eseva nayo.
That is born of two, thus, by two factors. Elsewhere, these two factors
should also be understood according to this method.

Tiika text after the Note:
Ta.m catuja.m. Avasesanti avinibbhogaruupena saddhi.m aakaasadhaatumaaha.
This is born of four. As to the expression, that is all the rest, he said
that the element of space is together with the (eight) inseparable rúpas.
***** 
Nina.
	
33397

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:41am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5

Acharn Sujin stressed again and again that we should consider whether there
is dhamma now. What is dhamma? Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound,
thinking of all experiences through the senses. We usually think with
attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). Sense-cognitions
such as seeing and hearing only last for one moment and then defilements are
bound to arise. It seems that we recognize defilements more easily than the
moments of seeing and hearing. However, it is essential to understand also
the moments of seeing and hearing. It is on account what we experience
through the senses that many defilements arise.
The Abhidhamma helps us to have more understanding of our life, to entangle
different realities. We see only visible object, and shortly after seeing we
define what we see, we remember the image of a person or thing. We cling to
such images and we are neglectful to understand the different cittas that
arise and that experience different objects. We take the person or thing we
perceive for reality, for something that really exists and that is lasting.
This is wrong view, and wrong view is the condition for much confusion and
trouble in our life.
We do not define all the time what is seen, we do not think all the time,
³this is a tree, this is a tree². There are also moments of just seeing, no
thinking. We may believe that we see a particular object, like a tree, but
is there not also colour at the background? We do not have to think of tree
or background, but all that is visible can be seen. Seeing is not focussing
on specific colours such as red or blue. When our eyes are open many
different colours appear through eyesense and there is no need to enumerate
or define all these colours. They just appear through the eyesense and after
that we pay attention to the shape and form of things and we know that this
is a person and that an animal or tree. A person is not seen. It is
impossible that a person impinges on the eyesense, how could he contact
eyesense? But to apply this knowledge is difficult, because we are used to
believing that we see people and things all the time. Insight can only very
gradually be developed.

****
Nina.
	
33398

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:41am
Subject: Tiika Vis. 79, no 1

Tiika Vis. 79, no 1.

Vis. 79. Again, it is of five kinds as born of one, born of two, born of
three, born of four, and not born of anything.
Herein, what is kamma-born only or consciousness-born only is called
'born of one'. Of these, materiality of the faculties, together with the
heart-basis, is kamma-born only; the two intimations are
consciousness-born only. But what is born [now] of consciousness and
[now] of temperature is called 'born of two'. That is the sound base
only.(33) What is born of temperature, consciousness, and nutriment
[452] is called 'born of three'. But that is the three beginning with
'lightness' only. What is born from the four beginning with kamma is
called 'born of four'. That is all the rest except 'matter as
characteristic'.
-
Tiika 79 (for Pali, see no 2, below):
³Born from one², means: only born from one cause.
Is it not so that there is no arising of what is conditioned by only one
cause?
True, this does not exist, but here born of one means born by (one of) the
conditions that generate materiality.
N: It means materiality originated solely by kamma or by any one of the
other three factors.
The way different conditions operate is very intricate. For instance, kamma
produces at the time of birth three decads of rupas, and heat is among
these. This heat, when the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away, produces
in its turn other rupas. However, when it is said, born solely from kamma,
other conditions are not taken into account.
Text: 
He does not consider (here) another condition for the arising of materiality
apart from the condition that generates materiality.
N: Thus, only kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition that originates
materiality is taken into account here.
As to born of two etc. this is according to the same method.
As to the expression, because of these (it is of five kinds), this means,
according to the classification of these.
As to the expression kamma-born only, this means born solely from kamma.
As to the expression consciousness-born only has here the same meaning.
As to the expression born from consciousness and from temperature, this
should be understood as sometimes born from consciousness and sometimes born
from temperature.
N: Sound that originates from temperature is, for example, the sound of wind
or of a waterfall. Sound that originates from consciousness is speech sound.
We read in the ³Manual of Abhidhamma² (Abhidhammattha Sangaha), in the notes
of Ven Narada: <Articulate sounds are caused by mind; inarticulate sounds
are caused by utu (temperature). Musical notes caused by men are produced by
utu, conditioned by mind.>

Text: 
That is born of two, thus, by two factors. Elsewhere, these two factors
should also be understood according to this method.
N: That is sound only.
*****
Nina.
	
33399

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:44am
Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for trying to retrieve the discussion under this thread.

Let me first quote the following from 
Samyutta Nikaya XII.2
Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
Analysis of Dependent Co-arising
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html


"And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the 
origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not 
knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This 
is called ignorance."

The cessation of ignorance means knowing the dukkha, knowing the 
origination of the dukkha, knowing the cessation of the dukkha, 
knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of the dukkha. 
In short, it means knowing the Four Noble Truths.

What does it mean by knowing the cessation of the dukkha?

Let me use a simile:
Suppose one is wandering in the desert, suffering from heat and 
thirst. However, he knows that there is an oasis with a cool pool 
where he can drink from the pool and relieve the thirst. Although 
he's not been to the oasis before, he knows the way to get there. 
So traveling by days and nights, he eventually makes it to the 
oasis, rests under the palm trees, drinks from the pool and relieves 
the thirst.

Knowing the cessation of the dukkha is like knowing there is an 
oasis with a cool pool where he can rest and drink from the pool and 
relieve the thirst. Knowing the way to the oasis is like knowing 
the way of practice leading to the cessation of the dukkha. 
Directly experiencing the cessation of the dukkha is like actually 
resting under the palm trees, drinking from the cool pool, and 
relieving the thirst.

Comments are welcome.

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahdhhk" 
<sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Apologies for putting my comments to you under the wrong 
> subject thread - I sometimes do this when I'm rushing. I've tried 
> to retrieve the discussion so you can respond as requested 
> (off-list). Metta, Sarah
> ....
> S: > *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 
> 33211), I think we can rightly say that until the attainment of 
> arahantship, `there is always ignorance'. The anusaya (latent 
> tendency)of ignorance lies `dormant' in each citta and is 
> accumulated from citta to citta, even when it doesn't manifest. I 
> also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold
> path factors being `fabrications' `leading to the cessation of 
> craving,thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications'.]
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Howard and all,
> > 
> > First of all, I would like to correct myself regarding what I 
said:
> > 
> > 'As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, 
> > attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until 
> > 
> > "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He 
> > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task 
> > done. There is nothing further for this world.'"'
> > 
> > I want to say that as long as one has not known the Four Noble 
> > Truths, there is always ignorance. In other words, ignorance is 
> not 
> > knowing the Four Noble Truths.
[snip]
	
33400

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:03am
Subject: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna (Re: [dsg] Re: I have a wonderful wife)

Hi, Ken (and Rob & Phil, and also Jon at the end) -

In a message dated 5/27/04 3:22:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kenhowardau@y... writes:

> RM:> >>Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna
> >>>
> 
> Ph: >>Does this progression mean that Samadhi is a necessary 
> precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without 
> Samadhi first? >>
> 
> =====
> 
> KH: I'm confused too, Rob. Samadhi is a universal cetasika, is it 
> not? Why are you talking about sila leading to samadhi leading to 
> panna?
> 
> Are you referring to samma-samadhi (right concentration)? In that 
> case, it should be made clear that it arises with (and dependent 
> upon) panna, not before. "As to this (right concentration) right 
> understanding comes first." (Mahacattarika-sutta)
> 
===========================
Ken, in AN X,1 you will find the following, where "-->" means "has as 
reward":
_____________________
Virtuous ways of conduct
-->
Non-remorse
-->
Gladness
-->
Joy
-->
Serenity
-->
Happiness
-->
Concentration of the mind
-->
Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
-->
Revulsion and dispassion
-->
Knowledge and vision of liberation

Also, in AN VI,1 you will find the following, where "-->" means "is a 
basis for":
___________________
Sense control
-->
Virtue
-->
Right concentration
-->
Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
-->
Revulsion and dispassion
-->
Knowledge and vision of liberation

A long while ago Jon and I had an exchange of posts on the role of 
concentration. I can't seem to find those posts, which I *thought* I had saved. I 
do think that there was another sutta, similar to the ones mentioned above, 
that says about the same thing, except it also shows how later factors lead to 
new, higher-level versions of earlier factors, inducing me to make a spiral 
simile. Jon, do you have copies of that earlier exchange between us?

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33401

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 11:26am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 015 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The first vithi citta in vithi series does the function of avajjana. 
If the object is one of five senses, then the citta will be 
pancadvaravajjana citta. If the object is mind object, then the citta 
arises will be manodvaravajjana citta. Both do the job of avajjana. 
Avajjana is made up of 'arammana or aa' and 'vajjana'.

Vajjana means 'contemplating' 'considering' 'thinking 
of' 'examining'. So both citta think of the object or arammana. In 
pancarammana or 5-senses, pancadvara avajjana citta thinks of the 
object and knows that it is at so and so dvara or door. So next 
arising citta will be according to that dvara. In manodvara vithi 
series, after bhavangupaccheda, manodvaravajjana citta arises and 
contemplates on the object and then 7 successive javana cittas arise 
taking the same object with impulse.

2nd vithi citta is pancadvara vithi series is pancavinnana citta. 
Panca means five. Vinnana comprises 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means 
distinctly, distinguishingly, particularly, especially. Nana means 
knowledge or knowing. So pancavinnana means knoeledge of one of 5 
physical senses. No other citta can do the job of pancavinnana citta.

Pancavinnana citta is a collective term for cakkhuvinnana citta, 
sotavinnana citta, ghanavinnana citta, jivhavinnana citta, and 
kayavinnana citta. Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Cakkhuvinnana 
means 'knowing particularly at eye'. Sota means 'related to ear', 
ghana means 'related to nose', jivha means 'related to tongue, and 
kaya means 'related to body'. The function here is vinnana function 
that is special knowledge of sense.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33402

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:36pm
Subject: Tihetuka Cittas

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Tihetuka cittas have been discussed in the page 34 of patthana dhamma pages. The page 34 has finished up and the page can now be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana34.html . Tihetuka patisandhi is essential for arising of jhana cittas, magga cittas, phala cittas in this very life. But we still can learn Dhamma to its deepest level even though we may or may not achieve jhana, magga, and phala cittas in this very life.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing




	
33403

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:46pm
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 016 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Vithi citta series starts with avajjana citta which is a 
contemplating mind which contemplates on arammana or object. Due to 
its contemplation it knows that the object comes through one of 5 
sense door but the citta immediately falls away.

Next arises pancavinnana citta. If the object is rupa, cakkhuvinnana 
citta arise, if sadda or sound sotavinnana citta, if gandha or smell 
ghanavinnana citta, if rasa or taste jivhavinana citta, and if 
photthabba or touch kayavinnana citta arises. If avajjana citta is 
akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then 
kusala.

Pancavinnana citta then immediately falls away. Next arise 
sampaticchana citta. Sampaticchana is a Pali word made up of 'sam' 
and 'paticchana'. Sam means 'in a good manner' 'well' 'neatly' and 
paticchana means 'to receive'. 

Sampaticchana citta just receives the message of object that 
pancavinnana took. It also in accordance with kusala or akusala 
dhamma depending on the preceeding cittas. There are 2 sampaticchana 
cittas or 2 receiving minds. They are akusala and kusala 
sampaticchana cittas.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33404

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Ken, and all

Thank you for the feedback, Ken.

> Ph to RM: > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation than 
> some people here. 
> ----------------------
> 
> KH: It depends on the meaning of meditation. True meditation is a
> citta, (it lasts one mind-moment) (snip)


Ph: This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a 
citta, a mind-moment. I know there is concentration as a citta, a 
universal that rises with every citta if I recall correctly. But 
meditation as a citta is new to me. I don't think I've come across 
such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in 
other words. 

> ---------------------
> Ph: > > I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is 
> seen as a self-driven activity. > > 
> ----------------------
> 
> KH: When formal meditation is spoken of as a self-driven activity, 
I 
> think that means it is undertaken with the intention of gaining 
> something for one's self.

Ph: Well, I think I used "self-driven" to mean that it is done with 
wrong view related to self controlling things and deciding to 
sit. "Driven" as in self taking hold of the reins and pulling a 
person this way or that way, towards skillful practices and away from 
bad habits. And of course that would be done in the way that you 
mention - "with the intention of gaining something for one's self."

> ------------------------
> Ph: > Why can't meditation arise in a conditioned way the same way 
> studying or discussing does? >
> ----------------------
> 
> K: By `conditioned,' I think you mean `not self-driven.' Reading, 
> discussing and considering Dhamma can (sometimes) be done without 
> being self-driven (without wanting to gain something). I'm not 
sure 
> the same can be said about formal meditation, though. 

Ph: I wonder what I mean by conditioned?. I tend to throw around 
terms that I've read about but not yet properly understood. I think 
of conditionned in this case as, for example in my case, sitting on a 
cushion with a coffee (cheating!) as soon as I have gotten up and 
taken a pee and done a few calesthenics. It's my morning routine. I 
do it without thinking because I have done it so often before. No 
hopes of ganing anything in particular from my meditation, but open 
to any insights that arise. Do I want to gain something? Well, I want 
to understand akusala better, to make progress- I admit- in beginning 
to eradicate defilements. 

>K: In any case, why would we practice formal meditation as part of 
our 
> Dhamma practice? 

Ph: I can't speak for more advanced practicioners, but I think 
meditation is very helpful for beginners. We are provided with a 
workshop on the cushion, an opportunity to sit quietly and watch the 
way thoughts come and go. For people who ahve lived for years at the 
mercy of their thoughts, sitting and observing them is very 
liberating. And leads to more observation in the day that follows.
I can see that as one cultivates satipatthana, the need for that 
time on the cushion could decrease - unless of course one wants to 
seek jhanas. But for this beginner, cushion time is very helpful, I 
think. As long as I understand that I am not gaining some kind of 
pristine mind that I can take out into the world, that will allow me 
to rise above dukkha or something. I've seen similar ideas taught, 
and I think it is wrong. The awareness of thoughts on the cushion is 
just a warm-up for more awareness during the day to come. It leads to 
(conditions?) more awareness later in the day, in my opinion.

K: >The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors 
> for enlightenment.

Ph: Are you referring to the 7 factors, the bojjhanga? It certainly 
gets confusing with so many lists of factors and faculties and 
strengths and whatnot. Concentration is one of the 7 factors, and of 
course right concentration is a path factor. So the concentration 
that rises as a citta accompanying other cittas, universally, and the 
right concentration that is a path factor - are they the same thing? 
I am not fretting about trying to figure this out, yet, but I will 
continue to think about it.

(snip)
K: >But practice in accordance with the 
> Dhamma is synonymous with insight into the nature of conditioned 
> reality: it doesn't mean sitting on a cushion or concentrating on 
> concepts.
>
Ph: Absolutely. But as I said above, I think sitting on a cushion 
in the morning can help one develop a mind that seeks insight into 
the nature of conditioned reality throughout the day. It is not 
absolutely necessary, of course, but it helps, I think. Especially 
when one is starting out.
And concentrating on concepts such as Metta - concentrating on them 
in a non-forceful way that is more like contemplating them- is 
certainly beneficial if one goes about it without expectations.

Contemplating concepts - that's something I want to ask about, but 
I will do it in another thread someday. Contemplating and allowing 
ideas to arise on a topic without forcing the issue. Very helpful, I 
think but I guess it's very hard to do in a way that is not about 
self seeking to gain something.

Metta,
Phil
	
33405

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:21pm
Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Ken H and all,

Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration:

SN 56.1 Concentration [1]

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
concentrated understands things as they really are.
"And what does he understands as it really is?
He understands as it really is: 'This is suffering.'
He understands as it really is: 'This is the origin of suffering.'
He understands as it really is: 'This is the cessation of suffering.'
He understands as it really is: 'This is the way leading to the 
cessation of suffering.'
"Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated 
understands things as they really are.
"Therefore, bhikkhus, 
an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'
An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the origin of 
suffering.'
An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the cessation of 
suffering.'
An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading 
to the cessation of suffering.'"

Metta,
Victor

[1] Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> Hi Rob M and Philip, 
[snip]
> Are you referring to samma-samadhi (right concentration)? In that 
> case, it should be made clear that it arises with (and dependent 
> upon) panna, not before. "As to this (right concentration) right 
> understanding comes first." (Mahacattarika-sutta)
[snip]
> Kind regards,
> Ken H
	
33406

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:11pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Sarah,

Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause?

Larry
	
33407

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling?

Hi Rob,

How about if we throw out the entire dependent arising formula as a
conceptual fabrication _except_ as it applies to citta process? Ultimate
reality is only what we experience here and now. Isn't that only citta
process? Some how or another feeling must enter into every citta process
in such a way that we can say contact conditions feeling and feeling
conditions javana cittas. Can you explain citta process in that way?

Larry
	
33408

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:30pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 79, no 1

Ven Narada: <Articulate sounds are caused by mind; inarticulate sounds
are caused by utu (temperature). Musical notes caused by men are
produced by utu, conditioned by mind.>

Hi Nina,

What if I intentionally make a non-intimating sound with my mouth? Is
that consciousness produced or temperature produced? Or is it that
intention _is_ intimation when it comes to consciously producing sound
(therefore there is no intentionally produced non-intimating sound)? 

Also, I disagree with Ven Narada. It seems to me music is intimation
(even the tap, tap, tap of tap dancing).

Larry
	
33409

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:08am
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Ken, and all
> 
> Thank you for the feedback, Ken.
> 
> > Ph to RM: > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation 
than 
> > some people here. 
> > ----------------------
> > 
> > KH: It depends on the meaning of meditation. True meditation is a
> > citta, (it lasts one mind-moment) (snip)
> 
> 
> Ph: This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a 
> citta, a mind-moment. I know there is concentration as a citta, a 
> universal that rises with every citta if I recall correctly. But 
> meditation as a citta is new to me. I don't think I've come across 
> such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in 
> other words. 

<snip>

Friend Phil,

I have really been enjoying your posts of late. They are fresh and 
open. In this post you state a few open-ended questions which 
express some confusion. I am going to offer you my perspective on 
this issue. I have covered these points in previous posts in this 
group, but you were not a member then and missed them, so I will 
cover them again.

The Buddha did not define Right Concentration as the concentration 
inherent to each citta. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as 
Jhana: 

"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- 
quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) 
qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure 
born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. 
With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & 
remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, 
unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- 
internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in 
equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of 
pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the 
Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable 
abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the 
earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains 
in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither 
pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html

I do believe that there is concentration inherent to each citta but 
this concentration is not of a liberating quality. Actually, this 
concentration is of the nature of craving because it is the factor 
which causes the arising of each particular citta. Just as each 
raindrop on the surface of a lake will cause a tiny splash, each 
arising of rupa will cause a subsequent arising of nama…and each 
nama is `concentrated' on the rupa which caused it to arise. This 
is samsara and it is not liberating. It is only the concentration 
that frees the mind from the pull of rupa, namely Jhana 
concentration, which can be truly liberating.

I agree with you that meditation is very important (crucial) to 
Buddhist practice. Sometimes that meditation is very casual, like 
the morning cup of coffee you have with your meditation (BTW, I do 
that too! ;-)). Sometimes it is much more focused and energetic, 
with no pauses to drink coffee. Both of these are good practices. 
Of course, eventually, they need to lead to Jhana states. And this 
isn't my opinion; this is what the Buddha taught. Also, the Buddha 
taught that the Brahma-Viharas can be used as a vehicle to reach 
each of the four mundane Jhanas: Loving-Kindness, Compassion, and 
Sympathetic Joy can be used as the kasina for the first three 
Jhanas, and Equanimity can lead to the Fourth Jhana.

Hope this helps and I hope you keep up the delightful posts!

Metta, James
	
33410

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 79, note 33. no 2.

Hi Nina,

Just a thought on intimation: it seems to me any expression of one's
state of mind is an intimation, whether it be stamping one's foot in
anger, a fashion statement, or any kind of art. What do you think?

Larry
	
33411

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:35am
Subject: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Ken H and all,
> 
> Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration:
> 
> SN 56.1 Concentration [1]
> 
> At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
> concentrated understands things as they really are.
> "And what does he understands as it really is?
<snip>

Hi Victor,

Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to the 
wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is 
concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this 
refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana. 

At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration. There is 
also right understanding, right thought, possibly the three 
abstentions (depending on the level of vipassana) -- right speech, 
right action and right livelihood -- right effort and right 
mindfulness. So, the Buddha might just as well have 
said, "Bhikkhus, develop right thought," or, "Bhikkhus, develop 
right speech," and so on. No doubt, there are suttas where he does 
say those things. In this case he chose to say, " Develop 
concentration" and, of course, he had perfectly good reasons for 
doing so. I presume those reasons are given somewhere in the 
commentaries. Perhaps he was talking to a group of jhana meditators 
who were wondering if they were on the right track. (?)

As to the order in which these Path factors are conditioned, "right 
understanding comes first." (This is stated in the suttas (eg 
Mahacattarika-sutta) and explained in detail in the Abhidhamma.) At 
the same time, right understanding depends on the co-arising of 
right concentration and the other `right' cetasikas.

Victor, it is important that you accept the help of the Abhidhamma 
and the ancient commentaries. Without them, you (or anyone) will 
always misinterpret the suttas. Your current battle over the meaning 
of "birth is dukkha" demonstrates the absurd situations you will get 
yourself into. 

In the same way, your lone stand on the assertion, "the Buddha did 
not teach no self" is a lost cause. It can only be sustained while 
you continue to `pick a few words out of context and make sweeping 
statements.' 

Don't go it alone, Victor, the suttas are deep, profound 
and "knowable only to the wise."

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33412

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3

Dear Nina & Philip,

I’m appreciating the good reminders in your posts and in Nina’s series:

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: 
> It is a gain to know at least when we cling to an underlying notion of
> self,
> no matter what our actions are, even when we perform kusala. Acharn
> Sujin
> asked us whether it is not true that we often perform kusala for our own
> sake. She said, 3If one understands the teachings and there is less
> attachment to the self you think of the others more than of yourself.
> You
> think of helping others in deed and speech at any time.2
.....
S: It’s so true. So often we’re concerned about developing metta or
wisdom or other wholesome states, but really it’s for *me* and instead of
developing detachment, there’s more developing of attachment. Expectations
and looking for results are a big clue.

Phil, I understand what you say about your family difficulties and
inclination to speak out very easily.* I’m sure many if not most here also
have had some kind of serious problems in our families. As Nina mentioned
recently, forgiveness is also a kind of dana (generosity). I also used to
have quite a lot of resentment about some family issues, but found it very
helpful to be reminded that all the events were in the past and to have
metta for those involved while there was the opportunity. The opportunity
is gone before we know it. One can never repay one’s parents for helping
to give us this opportunity to hear dhamma and for nurturing us as best
they could according to the conditions at the time (including lots of
ignorance, of course). When we have long, long stories, we’re just
accumulating more resentment and other defilements. 

The best help for Naomi is to encourage her to ‘let it go’ and develop
metta and understanding. There is no abuse now and the present is all that
counts.As you said, accumulations are complex - her brother suffered less
but his life is far more of a mess. In the end, we cannot blame our
problems on the way we’ve been treated. The 3 poisons have been
accumulating for aeons of lifetimes. As you hint at, the ‘clinging to the
people involved in this drama and desire to protect....’ lies at the root
of the real problem. In other words, it comes back to self again. 

As Nina wrote in another extract, quoting K.Sujin: ‘when we have more
understanding, kusala can become purer. If we do not consider the citta
that arises, we may merely think of ourselves....’ I know you’ll
appreciate this. 

In MN 129, Baalapa.n.dita Sutta, Fools and Wise Men, we read about the
characteristics of a fool. A fool ‘thinks bad thoughts, speaks bad words,
and does bad deeds’. The fool sufers in three ways: firstly by finding out
and knowing that what he does is wrong, secondly by seeing the kinds of
punishment that fools experience and thirdly when he is overwhelmed by
thinking about the evil actions he performed in the past. These actions
‘cover him, overspread him, and envelop him’ like ‘the shadow of a great
mountain peak in the evening covers, overspreads, and envelops the earth’.
He sorrows and grieves and fears his next ‘destination’ and indeed the
following descriptions of unhappy destinies makes for very distrubing
reading, concluding with:

“Bhikkhus, suppose a gambler at the very first unlucky throw loses his
child and his wife and all his property and furthermore goes into bondage
himself, yet an unlucky throw such as that is negligible; it is a far more
unlucky throw when a fool who misconducts himself in body, speech, and
mind, on the dissolution of the obody, after death, reappears in a state
of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell.
This is the complete perfection of the fool’s grade.”

Surely we don’t wish any family members or anyone else such further grief 
or anguish such as that of the third kind above when they are overwhlemed
by thinking about past evil deeds, especially in their old age and
prompted by any resentment or need to clear the air on our part? After
all, we have the Dhamma for refuge and for understanding of our real
problems. If we have the chance, it’s better to help them to reflect on
kusala (good deeds and thoughts) and to show metta and forgiveness so
there won’t be any unnecessary anxiety.

“Then the wise man thinks: ‘I have not done what is wicked. I have done
what is good, I have done what is wholesome, I have made myself a shelter
from anguish. When I pass away, I shall go to the destination of those
who have not done what is evil...who have made themselves a shelter from
anguish.’ He does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating
his breast and become distraught.”

I hope this helps a little.

Metta,

Sarah
* Wednesday was a holiday here (Buddha's birthday!!)and we took our
evening stroll along the bamboo snake path. I could see our Chief
Executive (Hong Kong's No 1) walking along in the opposite direction. I
had time to work up a few sharp comments to make about the mess he's made
of things here since the Handover including the SARS fiasco, but Jon gave
me reminders of metta and begged me not to embarrass him by saying
anything. It was touch and go but there was just enough restraint and a
touch of metta, so I managed to just give a friendly 'good evening' and
let the story go. All anatta and depending on conditions of course;-) 
=========




	
33413

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:10am
Subject: Re: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hello KenH, Victor,and all,

KenH to Victor: "Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you 
have jumped to the
wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is
concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this
refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana."
----------

Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the first lines of SN 56.1, the sutta 
Victor quoted:
'At. Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who 
is concentrated understands things as they really are. [note 375]

note 375: As at 22:5; 
----------
And SN 22.5 (5) Concentration reads:

Thus have I heard. At Saavatthi .... There the Blessed One said 
this: "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
concentrated understands thins as they really are.
"And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and 
passing away of form; the origin and passing away of feeling; the 
origin and passing away of perception; the origin and passing away 
of volitional formations; the origin and passing away of 
consciousness. (rest snipped for brevity).

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Ken H and all,
> > 
> > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration:
> > 
> > SN 56.1 Concentration [1]
> > 
> > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
> > concentrated understands things as they really are.
> > "And what does he understands as it really is?
> <snip>
	
33414

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web

Dear Nina,

You wrote to Philip on this thread:

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: 

> N: See what Mike said about this: < The present
> moment is the only dhamma work ground, and only insight, understanding,
> malleability and so on to do the work--no you, I, us or them at all,
> except
> as distracting delusions. > In the Co to the satipatthana sutta the word
> kammathana (often translated as meditation subject) stands for
> satipatthana.
> Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of
> vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the
> meditation
> subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three
> characteristics
> of realities. We should not attach too much importance to a term but
> look at
> the context. 
....
When we were last in Bkk, K.Sujin was talking briefly about these two
meanings of jhana and particularly the second as you say 'in vipassana,
penetrating the three characteristics of realities'. Afterwards I was
trying to find a reference but wasn't sure where to look. Could you give
me one or a past post with one. Is it referring to samma samadhi when
arising with lokuttara cittas or at each moment of vipassana? Thanks in
advance.

Metta,

Sarah
=======

	
33415

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:46am
Subject: Re: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna (Re: [dsg] Re: I have a wonderful wife)

Hi Howard,

--- upasaka@a... wrote: 
> A long while ago Jon and I had an exchange of posts on the role
> of 
> concentration. I can't seem to find those posts, which I *thought* I had
> saved. I 
> do think that there was another sutta, similar to the ones mentioned
> above, 
> that says about the same thing, except it also shows how later factors
> lead to 
> new, higher-level versions of earlier factors, inducing me to make a
> spiral 
> simile. Jon, do you have copies of that earlier exchange between us?
....
Howard, I just went to escribe and keyed in 'spiral':
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/

This was the first message you're referring to, I think:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m10274.html

Perhaps you can repost the relevant parts. Your further posts and Jon's
can be found on the escribe page, but the subject heading changes, so just
look for your names or other posts with 'spiral' following this one.

Hope this is what you had in mind.

Metta,

Sarah
======

	
33416

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:15am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor,

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:

> Let me put it this way:
> 
> Suppose I asked someone: "Have you had dinner tonight?" And he 
> replied: "I usually have steak for dinner, with mashed potatos and 
> green beans" and went on describing the details of what he usually 
> has for dinner. Since his reply has nothing to do with what I 
> asked, then I asked again "So have you had dinner tonight?" And he 
> went on with what he likes for dinner, the best dinner he's ever had.
> 
> While I understood his reply, it had nothing to do with the 
> question "Have you had dinner tonight?" and the answer to this 
> question is simply either an affirmative "Yes, I have had dinner 
> tonight" or a negative "No, I haven't had dinner tonight" or if he 
> did not know, he could reply "I am not sure"/"I don't know."
....
And let me put my comments this way:

Did the Buddha ever recommend or suggest that all Yes/No questions should
at all times be answered with a ‘Yes’, ‘No’ or ‘Don’t know’ reply? 
......
> AN
> > 11.19:
> > 
> > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks.....
> > <....>
> > "Develop what is skillful, monks.....
> > <.....>
> > 
S:> > A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or 
> developing
> > in terms of the khandhas?
....
V:> I am not sure what your question mean. As I see it, the question is 
> not formulated properly in grammar.
....
S: I agree it wasn’t very clear. Let me give some options. Do you see the
Abandoning and Developing in the good sutta extract you quoted as being
performed by:

a) Self
b) Panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors
c) Meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet
room,focussing on breath (coffee optional for Phil)
d) a fuzzy combination of a), b) and c)

Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33417

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Larry!

> Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause?

That´s a good question!
Dukkha has inmanent desire of all beings as immediate cause, but 
Anicca and Anatta sound like an "ad posteriori" refinement of 
Buddha´s thought.

Mettaya, Ícaro
	
33418

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:45am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance, wishing to listen

Hi Howard, 
op 26-05-2004 20:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:
> 
>> One of our friends asked how we should study Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that
>> listening and considering are conditions for the understanding of the
>> Dhamma. He wondered whether there are other conditions for the development
>> of right understanding apart from listening. Can one do something else about
>> it? Acharn Sujin explained that each moment is conditioned and that wishing
>> to do something specific in order to have more moments of satipatthåna is
>> only thinking, a nåma that is conditioned. Listening helps to understand
>> conditions for each moment that arises.
>> 
> ====================
H: What about wishing to listen and consider? Is that not specific? (And by
"wishing" I don't mean idle desire, but volitionally directing attention.)
N: It is not easy to answer this Q. because the questioner, before taking
action, has to know first of all his own citta: is it kusala desire, thus,
chanda (wish to do) that is kusala, or is it lobha? It is difficult for the
Dhamma student to know this precisely, but it is most urgent. The Dhamma is
very subtle and we need to give it much thought, lest we do not go on the
wrong Path, the Path of lobha.

H: If that can occur, why not wishing to maintain mindful awareness, or
wishing to 
> maintain concentration on a meditation subject for the purpose of samatha
> bhavana? 
N: All ways of bhavana are to be developed with right understanding. That
is, right understanding of the source of all our actions: the citta
appearing at this moment. As to the word maintaining: this refers to the
fourth right effort: maintaining and developing the kusala that has arisen,
so that it increases. The four right efforts cannot arise without panna, no
matter we think of samatha or of vipassana. The Dhamma student has to take
into account also the other three right efforts that pertain to akusala not
yet arisen, akusala that has arisen, kusala that has not yet arisen. It is
indispensable to know precisely akusala and kusala when they arise. I take
as an example the Brahmaviharas, since I just listen to a Thai tape about
this subject. A.Sujin stresses here the perfection of truthfulness and
sincerity and also that of determination. We need to take the Dhammasangani
in hand: metta and the other brahmaviharas are cetasikas, not self.
Cetasikas perform their functions, not we. We have to consider the near and
far ennemies of each of the brahmaviharas, so carefully described in the
Visuddhimagga. We read the texts, but, they have to be verified in daily
life when we are with other people. We have to be truthful, and find out
when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta. When we have compassion and
there is sorrow on account of the other person's suffering, there is dosa,
not compassion. Thus, right understanding is needed above all. This stems
from listening, discussing, considering. The latent tendencies of ignorance
and wrong view are so stubborn. Listening is stressed because there are so
much ignorance and wrong view about kusala, akusala, about all dhammas.
When panna has grown it knows the right conditions for maintaining and
developing samatha and vipassana. And this without any idea of self who can
maintain kusala. But this is the result of a gradual development. When the
beginning Dhamma student thinks that he wants to maintain kusala, he may
forget that this depends on the right conditions.
As to the four right efforts in vipassana, these are right effort of the
eightfold Path and they cannot arise without right understanding of the
eightfold Path. When there is right mindfulness and right understanding of a
nama or rupa, there is right effort already, no need of trying to enhance
it. 
When listening is stressed, this does not mean wait with kusala actions. But
all the while cittas can be considered: are they kusala or akusala? Is there
self involvement or not? A. Sujin stresses the connection between metta and
sila. Also: sila is not only abstention, also helping and giving respect are
sila: good actions through speech and deeds. Metta and sila go together.
But, we have to know what true metta is: different from any form of
attachment, different from wanting to get something for ourselves, like
praise, esteem. 

You asked about a post written before about the spiral of sila, samadhi and
panna. Yes, I remember. You explained how they all develop together, that
sila goes on developing and becomes perfected through panna, if I do not
misquote you. 
I like to add: the Vis. used the triple method as a method of teaching, not
in order to set a specific order. This is the impressive beginning of the
Vis. where a sutta text is quoted:
"When a wise man, established well in Virtue,
Develops Consciousness [calm] and Understanding,
Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious
He succeeds in disentangling this tangle (S1, 13)."
Note: in every line panna is implied! A wise man, Understanding, sagacious,
and panna disentangles. Whatever text I read I cannot help seeing
satipatthana implied. Whatever subject the Buddha taught was different from
all other teachers.
Nina.
	
33419

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 3:01am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 017 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

In a life, patisandhi citta or liking consciousness is the first and 
cuti citta or dying consciousness is the last. In between are 
bhavanga cittas or life-continuum if there is no vithi cittas or 
orderly-serialised consciousness which arise due to conditions 
including appearing of senses.

These serial consciousness or vithi cittas starts with panca dvara 
avajjana citta or door-checking mind. This citta is followed by panca 
vinnana citta or five-sense-consciousness. These five sense-
consciousness are sight-consciousness at eye called cakkhu vinnana 
citta, sound-consciousness at ear called sota vinnana citta, smell-
consciousness at nose called ghana vinnana, taste-consciousness at 
tongue called jivha vinnana citta and touch-consciousness at body 
called kaya vinnana citta.

Starting with avajjana citta, followed by one of 5 sense-
consciousness, the sense or arammana or the object is then received 
by sampaticchana citta or receiving mind. It just receives and does 
not fully know with wisdom and effort is not needed in it arising. As 
soon as sampaticchana citta passes away, next arises santirana citta 
or investigating mind. Santirana means 'look into' 'examine in 
detail' 'scrutinize' 'investigate'. Again this citta passes away 
without ever fully aware of detailed and analytical knowledge of the 
object as there is no wisdom with this citta.

Next arises votthapana citta which is manodvaravajjana citta. 
Votthapana means 'to determine' 'to decide' 'to judge'. This citta 
just determines that the essence of the object should be felt and 
fully realised in such and such way. This citta just decides or 
determines what to do and he is not doing so. So manodvara avajjana 
cittas are not kusala or akusala but it is kiriya citta that is non-
resultant-non-kamma-producing citta.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33420

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 3:51am
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hello James, and all


Thanks for the kind words about my recent posts, James. Yes, I've 
been feeling "fresh and open" about Dhamma study. I think credit goes 
to Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life" (as well as Abhidhamma in Daily 
Life.) It has a gentle yet insistent rhythm to it that gives me a lot 
of confidence about life and Dhamma, yet allows me to feel relaxed 
rather than manic like I was when I first came across Abhidhamma. 
Ultimate credit goes to the Buddha - no kidding! - but if we don't 
find a teacher who communicates the Dhamma to us with the right 
balance of strict insistence and gentle encouragement, we don't get 
far. 

Thanks also for your feedback on my questions.

J: > The Buddha did not define Right Concentration as the 
concentration 
> inherent to each citta. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as 
> Jhana

This morning, before posting, I did a search at access to insight 
on "right concentration", because though I was familiar with the 
famous jhana passage, I was curious to know what else was said about 
right concentration, because jhana is simply not an option for me, 
and I suspect it is not an option for all but a few lucky folks who 
have the right environment/circumstances.

I found this sutta, MN 117, but I can't begin to understand it, 
yet. However, it seems to define right concentration in the context 
of other path factors, and could be of interest for those of us who 
are not/cannot be jhana seekers. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn117.html



J: > I do believe that there is concentration inherent to each citta 
but 
> this concentration is not of a liberating quality. 

Ph: That seems like a fair statement - but take that concetration 
out of each citta and what would you have? Mental chaos. Thus, 
perhaps it could be said that while not being liberating on its own, 
the concentration inherent to each citta contributes to liberation in 
a absolutely vital way. 

J: > Actually, this 
> concentration is of the nature of craving because it is the factor 
> which causes the arising of each particular citta. Just as each 
> raindrop on the surface of a lake will cause a tiny splash, each 
> arising of rupa will cause a subsequent arising of nama?End each 
> nama is `concentrated' on the rupa which caused it to arise. 
>This is samsara and it is not liberating. (snip)

Ph: This is interesting. I see your point. I can see that since 
there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala ones, 
concentration contributes to remaining in samsara. Like split second 
contractions of a minute bellows feeding a fire? I really don't know 
enough to be sure if what you're saying is correct or not, but it is 
interesting. If anyone else could confirm James' explanation above 
I'd be grateful. 

J:> I agree with you that meditation is very important (crucial) to 
> Buddhist practice.

Ph: Well, I think I said it is certainly very helpful for me as a 
beginner, but I added that I could see how it could become less 
important for those who have developped satipatthana in their daily 
life. And I can also see that it may indeed be vital - I just don't 
know yet. 

I thought of useful analogy today. When you learns to swim, you 
learn in a pool, where the water is calm and allows you to 
concentrate on stroke elements with the least possible amount of 
distraction. The stroke elements can be experienced clearly. If you 
tried to learn to swim in a choppy sea, it would be much harder. If 
you learn to swim in a pool, then head out to sea, you fall into the 
stroke you learned in the pool and can better navigate in the sea. Of 
course, if you learn to swim in a pool, but never leave the pool, 
you're wasting your potential as a swimmer. Of course something 
subtle like vipassana can't be compared to something mechanical like 
swimming, but I think the idea that awareness one develops in the 
calm of the cushion helps lead to more awareness out in the choppy 
sea of one's daily life. Once one has become an adept swimmer, it is 
much more interesting to swim in a lake or out at sea than in a pool. 
This seems like common sense and can be confirmed by our experience, 
both in swimming and mindfulness, I'd say. 

Nice talking with you James. Here's hoping that this topic/thread 
doesn't develop in a way that causes peacable James to retreat in the 
face of an uprising by (unintentially) obnoxious James! You know I 
say that with affection... :) 

Metta,
Phil
	
33421

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 4:18am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 018 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

In a series of vithi cittas when there arises one of five senses such 
as sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, the existing bhavanga citta 
series has to stop and after 3 citta moments for atita bhavanga citta 
or past life-continuum, bhavanga calana citta or vibrating bhavanga, 
and bhavangupaccheda or the last bhavanga citta which is cutting up 
bhavanga citta series, vithi citta starts to arise.

1st citta in the vithi series is pancadvara avajjana citta. The 2nd 
citta is pancavinnana citta. The 3rd citta is sampaticchana citta or 
receiving mind. The 4th citta is santirana citta or investigating 
mind. The 5th citta is vothapana citta or determining mind, which is 
manodvara avajjana citta. This citta is a kiriya citta which does not 
give rise to any kamma while the preceeding 3 cittas pancavinnana 
citta, sampaticchana citta, and santirana citta are vipaka cittas or 
resultant consciousness.

After passing away of votthapana citta which is manodvara avajjana 
citta, there arises the 1st javana citta. Javana means 'swift' and 
quick movement. Javana cittas come in 7 successive series in most of 
the vithi citta series. These 7 cittas are mental impulse and all 
these cittas fully sense the object with full feeling. Depending on 
the conditions, there may or may not be wisdom or panna.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33422

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 5:21am
Subject: [dsg] Re: feeling?

Hi Larry,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> How about if we throw out the entire dependent arising formula as a
> conceptual fabrication _except_ as it applies to citta process? 
Ultimate
> reality is only what we experience here and now. Isn't that only 
citta
> process? Some how or another feeling must enter into every citta 
process
> in such a way that we can say contact conditions feeling and feeling
> conditions javana cittas. Can you explain citta process in that way?

I need to think about this for a bit. I will get back to you. Keep in 
mind that the citta process is also a conceptual fabrication; the 
only reality is the current rupa and the current mental state (citta 
+ cetasikas).

Please keep in mind that dependent arising dates back to the Suttas 
whereas dhamma theory (paramattha dhammas) and the citta process were 
not articulated until 1500 years later (10th century). The basic 
roots of dhamma theory and the citta process come from the Suttas, 
but articulating them in the manner you are speaking did not happen 
until Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammatthasangaha.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33423

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 5:26am
Subject: Re: Impersonality

Hi Chris!

> Oh Icaro! quel horreur! You have been winning under false 
> pretences!!!!
> 
> NO Australian Railway goes to Darwin through Queensland. The ONLY 
> Railway to Darwin goes through South Australia!! (Capital city 
> Adelaide - from whence our Moderator Jon comes). To check:
> http://www.railpage.org.au/railmaps/

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Owh My Gohd!!!!

So I must go headlong to Darwin - Alice Springs - Tarcoola - 
Adelaide!!!! And after this go up to Sidney and then, finally, 
Brisbane!!!
My usual challenge at Railroad Tyconn II, Australia scenario,is 
begin at Darwin and Katherine, and then tennant creek and Alice 
Springs - the rail machines are very demanding at the 70´s. My dare 
turn up to Bracaldine - Rockhampton - Brisbane is to risky at the 
last end!
Simple!!!
You aussies seem not to be so dull anyway!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------


> 
> Now - what would a good buddhist do under these circumstances? :-) 
> Return the winnings? (gasp! and double gasp!!) Say nothing - the 
> intention at the time was pure?? (Or was it??!!) Ah, decisions, 
> decisions ... :-) As a true follower of the Dhamma and devotee of 
> the Abhidhamma, I have every confidence that you will make 
> the "RIGHT!!" decision. :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Take a deep breath, pick up the faster and less demanding train on 
your schedule and begin carrying up and down people and bauxite from 
Katherine to Darwin, making a lot of money meanwhile. With the bless 
of Buddha there will be an Aluminium facility at Tennant creek where 
to put all the Katherine´s bauxite, and perhaps a tool factory at 
Barrow´s Creek or even at Alice Springs to keep the economical booze 
flowing on. And thanks to Vipassana, Abhidhamma and the map produced 
out by Msr. Christine Forsyth I WON´T go straight to Rockhampton and 
Brisbane, I will go ahead to Adelaide and build a rail station in 
front of Jon´s manor...hahahahah!!!!!! :-)))))))))))))))))))))))

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Those stalwarts at the Aterro do Flamengo Playground must be 
> expatriate members of British Commonwealth countries. (Cricket has 
> among the highest number of participants of sports in the world, 
> rivalling soccer - Indians and Pakistanis are fanatical players in 
> their tens of millions).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW!
Rock in Rio!
Volley in Rio!!
Beach Soccer in Rio!!!
And now... The Apocalypse!!!!
CRICKET IN RIO!!!! 

I hope to survive the experience! : - )


Mettaya, Ícaro
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
> P.S. 
> (Do you think there could be an infectious virus going around 
whose 
> symptoms are exclamation marks!!!!, CAPITAL letters, question 
> marks??, smiles :-), and a sprinkling of utterances in foreign 
> languages??!!)
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca"
	
33424

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Impersonality

Hi Icaro (and Queenslanders),

How did you get from 'Impersonality' to CRICKET IN RIO? I must have missed
an important connection on the track.....

--- icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> wrote: 
> WOW!
> Rock in Rio!
> Volley in Rio!!
> Beach Soccer in Rio!!!
> And now... The Apocalypse!!!!
> CRICKET IN RIO!!!! 
> 
> I hope to survive the experience! : - )
....
No, No, No, ICARO!!! You’ve got it all wrong.
The real survival test in RIO is the POROROCA which I read about recently
in the newspaper and just checked google to find more about this loooong
tidal wave surf deep in the Amazon*. Now this is the way to attract those
Queenslanders and set them on the right track - offer a Pororoca
meditation, Abhidhamma and lots of impersonality in one hand, coffee in
the other (special concession) and forget all those post-colonial tame
sports like cricket.

Metta,

Sarah
p.s apologies to all for setting just one bad example of frivolity
here.....

*>if they survive. ... Pororoca races upstream
for several kilometers, flinging any ... Surfers from Rio de Janeiro
travel to ...< 

>Surfers from Rio de Janeiro travel to the Amazon estuary to catch
pororoca in March and April. São Domingo do Capim in the southern part of
the estuary hosts an annual surfing competition sponsored by Bad Boy, a
manufacturer of surfing apparel. As would be expected in Brazil, the event
includes a competition for Miss Surfing Pororoca.<

Eyes downcast for the last part......
==================


33425

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:47am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3

Hi Sarah, and all

Thanks for your feedback, Sarah.

S:> Phil, I understand what you say about your family difficulties and
> inclination to speak out very easily.* I'm sure many if not most 
here also
> have had some kind of serious problems in our families. As Nina 
mentioned
> recently, forgiveness is also a kind of dana (generosity). I also 
used to
> have quite a lot of resentment about some family issues, but found 
it very
> helpful to be reminded that all the events were in the past and to 
have
> metta for those involved while there was the opportunity. 

Ph: Yes. Forgiveness as dana. Bus what is the greatest gift we can 
give someone? What is the only real way to repay the great debt we 
owe our parents, according to the Buddha? I forget the details, but 
there is the sutta in AN about how even if we carry our parents for X 
number of years and allow them to Y on us, we cannot repay the debt. 
It is only by helping them to understand the Buddha's teaching that 
we can really repay them. It is usually quoted out of context, 
suggesting that there is absolute duty to our parents, but in full it 
says that taking care of them in the conventional sense, the physical 
sense, does not compare to helping them by sharing Dhamma. And to 
share Dhamma we might have to encourage them to be honest with 
themselves, don't you think? Not force it, but offer gentle 
encouragement. That's all I want to do, really. I'm not demanding 
that he kow tow - just reflect a little, or a lot -whatever he is 
capable of, with his accumulations.



I was very interested by the sutta you quoted: 

> In MN 129, Baalapa.n.dita Sutta, Fools and Wise Men, we read 
about the
> characteristics of a fool. (snip)

You continued :

> Surely we don't wish any family members or anyone else such 
further grief 
> or anguish such as that of the third kind above when they are 
overwhlemed
> by thinking about past evil deeds, especially in their old age and
> prompted by any resentment or need to clear the air on our part? 
After
> all, we have the Dhamma for refuge and for understanding of our real
> problems. If we have the chance, itd better to help them to reflect 
on
> kusala (good deeds and thoughts) and to show metta and forgiveness 
so
> there won't be any unnecessary anxiety.

Ph: I do want to happy friendly relations with my father-in-law in 
the future and I want to help him to make peace with himself. That is 
not for me to do, I know - conditions will arise for him in this 
lifetime, or they won't. And yet, we are told in the sutta I referred 
to that the only true way to repay our debt is by sharing the Dhamma. 
I don't think he will "reflect on kusala (good deeds and thoughts) 
just being I am kind and forgiving, because in this society it is 
demanded, and ugly things are to be swept under the carpet. 

I agree that clinging to our stories about people and holding on 
to resentments is unskillful and just leads to akusala - how true 
indeed. But is there not sometimes learning from our own stories? Not 
clinging to them, but looking honestly at the way our lives have 
unfolded. I am willing to let go of the story, but should my father-
in-law? Can't he learn from it and lighten some of his accumulations 
before he dies? Isn't offering the opportunity to apologize deeply 
and sincerely to his daughter a valuable gift? We know that holding 
on to regrets about akusala just leads to more akusala, but is there 
no place for a lightening of khamma through some kind of repentance 
in Buddhism? I guess not. Maybe it's the ghost of religions past (ie 
Xtianity) that makes me think about repentance, or maybe it's all the 
insistence in Japan on "hansei" (looking back and reflecting on one's 
errors) but I think he could benefit from facing what he did before 
he dies. I'm not going to insist on it, but I think I would like to 
offer him the opportunity. And he's not on his deathbed or anything. 
He's a frisky 60 something. He has time to learn this time around.



> The best help for Naomi is to encourage her to let it go?Eand 
develop
> metta and understanding. 

Ph: Yes, and yet...she doesn't have the refuge of the Buddha, the 
Dhamma and the Sangha yet. I have to think about protecting her in 
conventional ways in addition to continuing to provide the influence 
of the Buddha's teaching indirectly. (It's becoming clear that she 
has an aversion of any explicit talk about Dhamma - she thinks, 
rightly, that my interest in Dhamma is dissolving my will to succeed 
in the marketplace, as we've talked about before. Making more of an 
effort in the marketplace is a prerequisite to sharing the Buddha's 
teaching with her.) 

>There is no abuse now and the present is all that
> counts. As you said, accumulations are complex - her brother 
suffered less
> but his life is far more of a mess. In the end, we cannot blame our
> problems on the way we've been treated. The 3 poisons have been
> accumulating for aeons of lifetimes. As you hint at, the clinging 
to the
> people involved in this drama and desire to protect....?Elies at 
the root
> of the real problem. In other words, it comes back to self again. 

Ph: Yes, this is all true. I really do think that this will remain 
in mind the next time I deal with him. 
Actually, I'm glad you quoted that "clinging to people", because I 
thought what I wanted to say after was "clinging to stories about 
people." The liberating thing about knowing that, in the absolute 
sense, there are no people is that we don't have to cling to their 
stories. There *are* people, of course, and we are freed by not 
clinging to past stories to believe in the possibility of change. 
Every time I see him I can see a fresh new bundle of possibility.

So, not clinging to the stories of others, but learning from our 
own stories. I think there is something to be said for that. I would 
like to offer N's dad a chance to learn from his story. And I would 
like to offer him the Dhamma, someday. 


S:> I hope this helps a little.

Ph: Indeed it did. I will be putting this in the folder along iwth 
your advice on the money issue. You're a good friend, Sarah. 

S: > * Wednesday was a holiday here (Buddha's birthday!!)and we took 
our
> evening stroll along the bamboo snake path. I could see our Chief
> Executive (Hong Kong's No 1) walking along in the opposite 
direction. I
> had time to work up a few sharp comments to make about the mess 
he's made
> of things here since the Handover including the SARS fiasco, but 
Jon gave
> me reminders of metta and begged me not to embarrass him by saying
> anything. It was touch and go but there was just enough restraint 
and a
> touch of metta, so I managed to just give a friendly 'good evening' 
and
> let the story go. All anatta and depending on conditions of course;-


Ph: This reminds me of the time I saw the xenophobic governor of 
Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara at an art exhibition, wandering with cronies, 
and I had an opportunity to lambaste him. But I didn't. Didn't 
say "good afternoon" to him, mind you.

I have regretted not being a little more discreet about posting 
personal matters like this here. I suspect I may be more discreet in 
the future, so if anyone has been made uncomfortable or irritated, 
thank you for your patience. Any further replies to this off-list, 
please. Thanks! :)

Metta,
Phil
	

	


33426

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, James (and Phil) -

In a message dated 5/28/04 3:10:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
buddhatrue@y... writes:

> 
> Friend Phil,
> 
> I have really been enjoying your posts of late. They are fresh and 
> open. In this post you state a few open-ended questions which 
> express some confusion. I am going to offer you my perspective on 
> this issue. I have covered these points in previous posts in this 
> group, but you were not a member then and missed them, so I will 
> cover them again.
> 
> The Buddha did not define Right Concentration as the concentration 
> inherent to each citta. The Buddha defined Right Concentration as 
> Jhana: 
> 
> "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- 
> quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) 
> qualities -- enters &remains in the first jhana: rapture &pleasure 
> born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought &evaluation. 
> With the stilling of directed thought &evaluation, he enters &
> remains in the second jhana: rapture &pleasure born of composure, 
> unification of awareness free from directed thought &evaluation -- 
> internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in 
> equanimity, mindful, &fully alert, and physically sensitive of 
> pleasure. He enters &remains in the third jhana, and of him the 
> Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous &mindful, he has a pleasurable 
> abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the 
> earlier disappearance of elation &distress -- he enters &remains 
> in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither 
> pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html
> 
> I do believe that there is concentration inherent to each citta but 
> this concentration is not of a liberating quality. Actually, this 
> concentration is of the nature of craving because it is the factor 
> which causes the arising of each particular citta. Just as each 
> raindrop on the surface of a lake will cause a tiny splash, each 
> arising of rupa will cause a subsequent arising of nama…and each 
> nama is `concentrated' on the rupa which caused it to arise. This 
> is samsara and it is not liberating. It is only the concentration 
> that frees the mind from the pull of rupa, namely Jhana 
> concentration, which can be truly liberating.
> 
> I agree with you that meditation is very important (crucial) to 
> Buddhist practice. Sometimes that meditation is very casual, like 
> the morning cup of coffee you have with your meditation (BTW, I do 
> that too! ;-)). Sometimes it is much more focused and energetic, 
> with no pauses to drink coffee. Both of these are good practices. 
> Of course, eventually, they need to lead to Jhana states. And this 
> isn't my opinion; this is what the Buddha taught. Also, the Buddha 
> taught that the Brahma-Viharas can be used as a vehicle to reach 
> each of the four mundane Jhanas: Loving-Kindness, Compassion, and 
> Sympathetic Joy can be used as the kasina for the first three 
> Jhanas, and Equanimity can lead to the Fourth Jhana.
> 
> Hope this helps and I hope you keep up the delightful posts!
> 
> Metta, James 
> 
> 
==============================
I both agree with you and disagree with you on this one, James. I 
agree with you about right concentration as being mainly defined as attaining the 
jhanas, especially the 1st four, and I agree that the ordinary level of 
concentration typically accompanying each mindstate (i.e., the degree of inclination 
for "the same" object of consciousness to be repeated in the next and 
subsequent states) is not a liberating level of concentration. But where we seem to 
disagree is on the issue of where the concentration occurs. As I see it, every 
mental function that operates does so within a single mindstate, though it may 
continue in subsequent ones. 
I understand a mindstate to end and a new one to begin whenever there 
is any change in the make-up of experience consisting in some factor ceasing, 
or another commencing, or both. I don't mean to imply by this that a mindstate 
must be instantaneous - in fact, I think it is probably better represented by 
a cosine wave, growing, peaking, and subsiding, than by a discrete spike, or, 
better yet, by a family of such waves, one for each of the constituents of 
that mindstate. But all operations that occur at all are based within individual 
mindstates. With regard to concentration, in particular, the concentration 
that consists of sticking pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a 
lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is concentration in the 
conventional sense. I take that sort of "concentration" to be a 
mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being our way of grasping 
a kind of relation among mindstates, and it has as its basis the paramattha 
dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean the tendency (a sankhara) 
for the content of a mindstate to repeat. In other words, James, I have been 
infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic virus! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33427

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:56am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Impersonality

Dear Sarah


> How did you get from 'Impersonality' to CRICKET IN RIO? I must have 
missed
> an important connection on the track.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It´s because there is only one Cricket team in Rio: a group of 
old and nice ladies e conspicuous gentlemen dreesed in white that 
gather up themselves at Weekends, just too similar to...ahn...you 
know...you all here at DSG are a group of old and nice ladies and 
conspicuos gentlemen, that usually gather up themselves, dressed in 
white...very very similar!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> No, No, No, ICARO!!! You've got it all wrong.
> The real survival test in RIO is the POROROCA which I read about 
recently
> in the newspaper and just checked google to find more about this 
loooong
> tidal wave surf deep in the Amazon*.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NO, NO, NO, Sarah!!!!
Rio and the Pororoca are more than 6.000 km afar!
Of course, you could get a mad surfer in Rio that wants to tame such 
tidal wave, but is almost so "usual" than to put rail tracks on 
Queensland!!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Now this is the way to attract those
> Queenslanders and set them on the right track - offer a Pororoca
> meditation, Abhidhamma and lots of impersonality in one hand, 
coffee in
> the other (special concession) and forget all those post-colonial 
tame
> sports like cricket.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you aussies always so smart ???
With such Abhidhamma meditation and dreams of Pororoca surfing it 
will be easy to go straight ahead to Darwin, Alice Springs, 
Rockhampton and Brisbane ( yes! I will spare Jon´s manor at Adelaide 
all the fuss of a virtual rail station so near...hahahahahah!!!!), 
half-steam, half-eletric lines, with lots of money on profits!
And for the miriad of lumpem hard-bit Paquistanese and hindustani 
workers on my virtual railroad...Panis et Circensis, i.e., their 
national favourite sport:DIGITAL CRICKET!

My name will be top of the pops on Railroad Tycoon II !!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Surfers from Rio de Janeiro travel to the Amazon estuary to catch
> pororoca in March and April. São Domingo do Capim in the southern 
part of
> the estuary hosts an annual surfing competition sponsored by Bad 
Boy, a
> manufacturer of surfing apparel. As would be expected in Brazil, 
the event
> includes a competition for Miss Surfing Pororoca.<
> 
> Eyes downcast for the last part......

----------------------------------------------------------------------

MAD all of them, I say unto you!
With wonderful beaches, big waves, lots of beer and fun here in 
Rio, these would be heroes want to tame the Pororoca! May Buddha has 
misericordy of their illusory souls! :-)))))))))))))))))))

Mettaya, Ícaro


	
33428

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, Ken (and Victor) -

In a message dated 5/28/04 3:38:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kenhowardau@y... writes:

> >Hi Ken H and all,
> >
> >Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration:
> >
> >SN 56.1 Concentration [1]
> >
> >At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
> >concentrated understands things as they really are.
> > "And what does he understands as it really is?
> <snip>
> 
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to the 
> wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is 
> concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this 
> refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana. 
> 
> At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration. 
====================
As I see it, your reading is the exact opposite of the normal meaning 
of the English sentence. The normal understanding of "A bhikkhu who is 
concentrated understands things as they really are," would not be "At a moment of 
vipassana, there is right concentration," but, instead, would be more along the 
lines of "At a moment of right concentration (or following in the wake of such) 
is vipassana." It is not vipassana that is being given as causal condition, 
nor is simultaneity being stressed. What is being asserted is the role that 
concentration plays as a condition for wisdom. Moreover, it seem to me that this 
meaning is crystal clear, and I suspect that interpreting otherwise is a 
consequence of being uncomfortable with regard to concentration and any suggestion 
of the worth of its cultivation. But this last, of course, is just conjecture 
on my part.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33429

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 7:19am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 019 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

As manodvara avajjana citta or mind-door-contemplating consciousness 
has determined the object, next arising citta the 1st javana citta 
senses the object with response along with a particular act.

This act is mostly akusala or unwholesome in daily life. As we can 
see in our daily life, most acts in mental impulse are unwholesome or 
akusala. For unleanred person, as soon as he gets up from his bed, he 
will first think he is humgry as he has to fast over night when he 
was asleep. The thoughts make him to choose from a varieties of 
alternatives. When he does not have the chance, then he would feel 
sorry ( aversion ) and when he gets what he wants he would feel 
pleased ( lobha ).

When someone is in grief then he would be in the state of wandering 
spreading mind and the act in javana cittas will be ignorance or 
delusion ( moha ). An alternative is he may have had a plan to offer 
food and robes to a group of members of sangha. As soon as he gets up 
from the bed, he has to plan with good mood to offer those thing. At 
that time javana cittas may be in the act of adosa and alobha.

Another possibility is the he may be practising samatha or vipassana 
bhavana. If so javana cittas would be in the act of amoha or panna. 
Panna is always associated with alobha or non-attachment, adosa or 
non-aversion all the time.

If the mental impulse or javana cittas arise in those who are 
arahats, then all javana will be kiriya javana cittas and there is no 
act or there is no kamma producing action in all those javana cittas.

If the 1st javana citta is akusala all the following 6 javana cittas 
have to be akusala cittas. If the 1st is kusala without wisdom or 
dvihetuka citta, then all following javana cittas will be dvihetuka 
javana cittas. If the 1st is tihetuka citta, all the following javana 
cittas will be tihetuka cittas.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33430

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 3:31am
Subject: Re: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna (Re: [dsg] Re: I have a wonderful wife)

Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 5/28/04 5:26:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote: 
> > A long while ago Jon and I had an exchange of posts on the role
> >of 
> >concentration. I can't seem to find those posts, which I *thought* I had
> >saved. I 
> >do think that there was another sutta, similar to the ones mentioned
> >above, 
> >that says about the same thing, except it also shows how later factors
> >lead to 
> >new, higher-level versions of earlier factors, inducing me to make a
> >spiral 
> >simile. Jon, do you have copies of that earlier exchange between us?
> ....
> Howard, I just went to escribe and keyed in 'spiral':
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/
> 
> This was the first message you're referring to, I think:
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m10274.html
> 
> Perhaps you can repost the relevant parts. Your further posts and Jon's
> can be found on the escribe page, but the subject heading changes, so just
> look for your names or other posts with 'spiral' following this one.
> 
> Hope this is what you had in mind.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
==============================
Thank you for this! It's exactly what I was looking for. Using escribe 
I then found another post, one including the one you refer to, that pretty 
much sums up the whole business. I'm copying it below. 

With metta,
Howard
********************************
From:  upasaka@a... 
Date:  Tue Jul 16, 2002  9:35 am
Subject:  Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in 
enlightenment


Hi again, Jon -

I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A.
Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out
of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain
of conditionality:

Virtuous ways of conduct
->
Non-remorse
->
Gladness
->
Joy
->
Serenity
->
Happiness
->
Concentration of the mind
->
Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
->
Revulsion and dispassion
->
Knowledge and vision of liberation.

This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is
interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of
the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as
above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once
again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the
preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding
qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the
near shore to the far shore."
This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and
is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the
factors affect each other.

With metta,
Howard


In a message dated 7/13/02 10:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a...
writes:


>
> Hi, Jon -
>
> In a message dated 7/13/02 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jonoabb@y... writes:
>
>
> >
> > Howard
> >
> > I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way
> > of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!).
> >
> > --- upasaka@a... wrote:
> > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) -
> > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what
> > is
> > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara
> > > Nikaya
> > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon).
> Diagramatically,
> > what is said there is the following:
> > >
> > > Sense control
> > > ->
> > > Virtue
> > > ->
> > > Right concentration
> > > ->
> > > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
> > > ->
> > > Revulsion and dispassion
> > > ->
> > > Knowledge and vision of liberation.
> > >
> > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite
> > pivotal.
> > > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three.
> >
> > I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or
> > of any of the 8 path factors for that matter).
> >
> > However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue,
> > concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed
> > concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each
> > supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively
> > sequential manner?
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in its
>
> general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so that
> "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are
> conditions
> for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can
> envisage
> what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic
> conditionalities.
> I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right
> concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of
> liberative
> wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any folks
> who
> might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that formative
> stage of practice.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before
> > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before
> > virtue.
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get
> started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. A
> degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a degree
>
> of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc,
> around and around, wider and wider.
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> ==========================
> With metta,
> Howard
>
********************************************

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33431

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 8:09am
Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 02 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

We have learnt many times in suttas what the eight components of Noble Eightfold Path. In the first round, we have passed through different dhammas that might aid our achievement. Those messages are with different headings but the back ground idea is the same. If some messages are missing, and if requested, messages will be delivered to the appropriate destination.

We have just started the Journey To Nibbana. Necessary equipment and tools for the journey have been collected. Some knowledge of the tracts have been to some extent learned and all these have been considered. As we have started the journey, we need a good record and need a frequent check where we are and what we have been doing so that we are not missing essential portion of the major tract.

Dhamma has its own attributes. It is good at the start and good at the middle and good at the end that is when entering nibbana. Just before entering nibbana, there were no fire that would otherwise made a great pain or suffering. This happens because all fire have been extinguished at an earlier stage before going into nibbana. That earlier stage is refered to at the moment of arahatta magga citta arising.

'Svakkhato bhagavatadhammo'. The Buddha Gotama had preached many dhamma on separate occasions. All these dhammas are good at the start, good at the middle part and good at the end and good through out dhamma preaching. The Buddha preached for 45 years and there had been about 14,636 days in 45 years including extra days for leap years. About 90 days were in Deva realm preaching all Abhidhamma to Devas and Brahmas with the aim giving a chance Himself returning His gratitute to His late mother who was reborn in Deva realm.

There have been more than 10,000 suttas as there had been more than 10,000 days as His Buddhahood. There are fewer suttas on the net than actual number exists. Suttas always have the main reason for preaching and the targeted satta/s. A single person may not need to learn every sutta that The Buddha preached. But dhammas are always good and any dhamma whether suttas or abhidhamma or vinaya all throw a good light on dhamma clearly. 

We have learned suttas several times and some suttas are learned even many times. Just reading, learning, studying, trying to understand the contents in dhamma in whatever form that is whether suttas or vinaya or abhidhamma and in whatever messager like printed materials or audio records or audiovisual records or hearing from real teachers is all just the first stage. This is something like collecting things that might be required during the journey. Now we have started the journey and we are on the way to nibbana trying to approach the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing 
htootintnaing@y... 






	
33432

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 10:51am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 020 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

A life what we call is a being who exists starts with patisandhi 
citta or linking consciousness and ends with cuti citta or dying 
consciousness. In between are part of life.

What are there in between patisandhi citta or linking consciousness 
and cuti citta or dying consciousness? There are uncountable 
consciousness each lasts just a moment which is said to be one 
billionth of a blink.

After linking consciousness or patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta 
immediately follows and again it passes away. Similarly at each 
moment there arise a citta. As long as there is no perceivable 5 
senses or 6 senses that is object for attention, bhavanga cittas 
arise one after another.

In the most vivid sense or object, the object which is a rupa starts 
its full power after one anukhana or sub-moment. At initiation or 
initial formation of rupa, it is not strong enough to give rise to as 
an object but only after that initiation. At that time one bhavanga 
citta upada ( initiation ) has finished. And one bhavanga citta 
became a past bhavanga citta or atita bhavanga citta.

When rupa starts to work as object or arammana, the continuously 
flowing bhavanga cittas have been disturbed and the citta after past 
bhavanga citta or atita bhavanga citta seems to be disturbed and 
quaked, shaked, vibrated, etc etc. That citta is called bhavanga 
calana citta. Calana means shaking or vibrating. Next arises citta is 
also bhavanga citta but it is the last bhavanga just before vithi 
citt starts to arise. That bhavanga citta is called bhavangupaccheda 
citta. From the 17 cittakkhana or rupa life, 3 citta moments have 
passed away. There left 14 citta moments.

These 14 moments are occupied by cittas in serial order.

Numerous Bhavanga Cittas....!Rupa as an object arises here at B1..

Bhavanga_B1.ABC ( Atita Bhavanga Citta )
B2.CBC ( Calana Bhavanga Citta or Bhvangacalana Citta )
B3.UBC ( Upaccheda Bhavanga Citta or Bhavangupaccheda )

Vithi _V1. PAC ( Pancadvara Avajjana Citta )
V2. PVC ( Panca Vinnana Citta )
V3. SCC ( Sampatic-Chana Citta )
V4. STC ( San-Tirana Citta )
V5. VTC ( Vot-Thapana Citta )
V6. 1st JC( First Javana Citta )
V7. 2nd JC( Second Javana Citta )
V8. 3rd JC( Third Javana Citta )
V9. 4th JC( Fourth Javana Citta )
V10.5th JC( Fifth Javana Citta )
V11.6th JC( Sixth Javana Citta )
V12.7th JC( Seventh Javana Citta )
V13.1st TDC( First Tadarammana Citta )
V14.2nd TDC( Second Tadarammana Citta )

Tadarammana citta is retention consciousness. Tadarammana comprises 
of 'tada' and 'arammana'. Tada means 'then' 'after'. Arammana is 
object. It just retains the object sensed by javana cittas. 
Tadarammana citta or retention consciousness arise twice. 

At the time tadarammana citta passes away, all 17 citta moment have 
passed away and rupa also completely falls away. So no vithi citta 
can arise at that time and next citta arises is bhavanga citta or 
life continuum.

In this way our lives starts with patisandhi citta or linking 
consciousness and it will end up with arising of cuti citta or dying 
consciousness. In between are bhavanga cittas arise one after another 
like water flowing in a flowing river. When an object arises, 
bhavanga cittas are disturbed and come to a halt and vithi cittas 
arise and in this way vithi cittas series and bhavanga cittas serial 
flow arise as long as we are here in this life as satta or being as 
in conventional sense.

These are functions of citta and citta can still be classified 
according to their function.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33433

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:32am
Subject: Re: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Ken H,

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Ken H and all,
> > 
> > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration:
> > 
> > SN 56.1 Concentration [1]
> > 
> > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
> > concentrated understands things as they really are.
> > "And what does he understands as it really is?
> <snip>
> 
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you have jumped to 
the 
> wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is 
> concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this 
> refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana. 

No problem. 

What is this that refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana? 
What do you mean by a moment of vipassana?

What the Buddha said in the discourse is clearer to me than what you 
are trying to say.



> 
> At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration. 


I am not quite sure what you mean here.
[snip]
> 
> Kind regards,
> Ken H
Metta,
Victor
	
33435

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 79, sound and intimation

Hi Larry,
op 28-05-2004 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:

> Ven Narada: <Articulate sounds are caused by mind; inarticulate sounds
> are caused by utu (temperature). Musical notes caused by men are
> produced by utu, conditioned by mind.>>

L: What if I intentionally make a non-intimating sound with my mouth? Is
> that consciousness produced or temperature produced?
N: Citta conditions it. But not every sound is raiising with the sound decad
containing the rupa that is verbal intimation. There is no proper speech
sound, no vocal chords involved.
Moreover, not every speech sound is verbal intimation. Muttering in one's
sleep or in a swoon, no intention to convey a meaning. Then there is just
speech sound without the rupa that is verbal intimation.
L:Or is it that
> intention _is_ intimation when it comes to consciously producing sound
> (therefore there is no intentionally produced non-intimating sound)?
N: speech sound produced by citta, by means of the movement of the vocal
chords with the intention to convey a meaning, that is verbal intimation.
L: Also, I disagree with Ven Narada. It seems to me music is intimation
> (even the tap, tap, tap of tap dancing).
N: Music: when it is blowing on the flute no vocal chords involved, it is
not proper speech sound. I want to convey something with my music, and that
means, citta conditions the sounds of music, that is all. No vi~n~natti
rupa. By dancing: one may want to convey a message, then it is bodily
intimation. Cymbals, or drum, the same.
L: Just a thought on intimation: it seems to me any expression of one's
state of mind is an intimation, whether it be stamping one's foot in
anger, a fashion statement, or any kind of art. What do you think?
N:In anger stamping the feet: yes, bodily intimation, by gestures. Facial
expression, frowning, etc: idem. Theater, dancing: it depends whether it is
for a public and one wants to convey something. Bodily intimation. But when
there is no intention to convey a meaning to someone else no vi~n~natti
rupa. 
Nina.
	
33436

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] kammathana, meditation subject

Dear Sarah
op 28-05-2004 10:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:

>> Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of
>> vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the
>> meditation
>> subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three
>> characteristics
>> of realities.. 
> ....
> When we were last in Bkk, K.Sujin was talking briefly about these two
> meanings of jhana and particularly the second as you say 'in vipassana,
> penetrating the three characteristics of realities'. Afterwards I was
> trying to find a reference but wasn't sure where to look. Could you give
> me one or a past post with one. Is it referring to samma samadhi when
> arising with lokuttara cittas or at each moment of vipassana?
N: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana: jhana
that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three characteristics.
Here is a text:
We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the
Buddha said to Cunda:

³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate,
Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction
to you.²

In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as contemplate.
The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains that there are
two meanings of jhåna:
contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna),
and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning
with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields
(åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha
and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.²

And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation:
Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
(thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito
(beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca
vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati
maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful).

Nina
	
33437

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Larry,
First an example: I am just studying Vis. 80 and here I learn about arising
of old age and death and it is explained that this can be said in the D.O. ,
that it is the sutta explanation in this context. It is said: <by way of
sutta explanation, pariyaayena suttesu vutta.m>. Pariyaaya is: instruction,
method, mode of teaching, figurative language. I learn from the Tiika that
there are different methods. It is very useful to learn about such
principles. 
But, strictly speaking, the rupa characteristics of decay and impermanence
do not arise. This is only an example to show that in certain contexts there
can be one explanation, but that this is not always valid. There are no
contradictions here, just different methods of explanation. It will be
clearer when we come to Tiika Vis. 80. The same subject is also dealt with
in the Expositor and the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha.
Now, for dukkha as the noble truth of dukkha it has a cause: craving. But as
a characteristic inherent in all conditioned realities it is a different
matter, just like impermanence and anatta. Impermanence and dukkha are
closely connected here; what is impermanent is also no refuge,
unsatisfactory. We cannot speak of arising of these three charactreistics or
being caused, they are just characteristics inherent in realities.

Nina. 
op 28-05-2004 01:11 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:

> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause?
> 
> Larry

	
33438

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:49am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6

When we are hearing we may think of the sound of traffic, but we do not
think all the time, ³this is the sound of traffic². There are also moments
of just hearing, hearing of what impinges on the earsense, of sound.
Earsense is rúpa, it is ready for impact of sound, just sound, nothing else,
so that hearing can arise. Sound is rúpa, hearing is nåma, they have
different characteristics. Earsense is the physical base for hearing and it
is also the doorway for the experience of sound. Hearing arises at the
earbase. Many processes of citta occur extremely fast. When we are in
conversation with others we communicate by means of the words we speak. When
we hear sounds and then recognize different syllables that form up words,
many ear-door processes arise and in between many mind-door processes of
cittas that remember meanings. Saññå does its task of marking and
remembering the object, so that we can remember a whole sentence, sequences
of them and understand the meaning of what is spoken.
When someone speaks to us, there are moments of just hearing and moments of
understanding of what has been said. When we translate words from Thai into
English, it seems that we can do this immediately, without thinking, but in
reality there are many different cittas arising in sense-door processes and
mind-door processes. If there is no hearing of just sound, how could we
translate anything?
It is the same in the case of reading, we actually translate what is seen
into meaning. However, there is also seeing of what appears through the
eyesense. Seeing is different from paying attention to the shape and form of
the letters. 
We need perseverance to listen to the Dhamma and carefully consider it, so
that we can understand the difference between concepts of people and things,
and the conditioned dhammas of our life which are citta, cetasika and rúpa.
When there is more understanding of dhammas as objects of satipatthåna, the
difference between concepts and dhammas will be clearer. We can learn the
difference between nåma, which includes citta and cetasika, and rúpa. Nåma
is the dhamma that experiences an object and rúpa is the dhamma that does
not know anything. 
******
Nina.
	
33439

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:25pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Sarah,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Let me put it this way:
> > 
> > Suppose I asked someone: "Have you had dinner tonight?" And he 
> > replied: "I usually have steak for dinner, with mashed potatos 
and 
> > green beans" and went on describing the details of what he 
usually 
> > has for dinner. Since his reply has nothing to do with what I 
> > asked, then I asked again "So have you had dinner tonight?" And 
he 
> > went on with what he likes for dinner, the best dinner he's ever 
had.
> > 
> > While I understood his reply, it had nothing to do with the 
> > question "Have you had dinner tonight?" and the answer to this 
> > question is simply either an affirmative "Yes, I have had dinner 
> > tonight" or a negative "No, I haven't had dinner tonight" or if 
he 
> > did not k~ow, he could reply "I am not sure"/"I don't know."
> ....
> And let me put my comments this way:
> 
> Did the Buddha ever recommend or suggest that all Yes/No questions 
should
> at all times be answered with a `Yes', `No' or `Don't know' reply? 

As I understand it:

No, the Buddha did not recommend or suggest that all Yes/No 
questions should at all times be answered with a `Yes', `No' 
or `Don't know' reply.

On the other hand, nor did the Buddha recommend or suggest that 
categorical questions should be evaded.

Categorical questions[1] are questions like

Is birth dukkha or not?

Is old age dukkha or not?

Is death dukkha or not?

Is form dukkha or not?

Is feeling dukkha or not?

Is perception dukkha or not?

Are fabrication dukkha or not?

Is consciousness dukkha or not?


[snip]
> S:> > A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning 
or 
> > developing
> > > in terms of the khandhas?
> ....
> V:> I am not sure what your question mean. As I see it, the 
question is 
> > not formulated properly in grammar.
> ....
> S: I agree it wasn't very clear. Let me give some options. Do you 
see the
> Abandoning and Developing in the good sutta extract you quoted as 
being
> performed by:
> 
> a) Self
> b) Panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors
> c) Meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet
> room,focussing on breath (coffee optional for Phil)
> d) a fuzzy combination of a), b) and c)

Let me put forth this question, but you don't have to answer it.

If someone says to you:

"Abandon what is unskillful, Sarah. It is possible to abandon what 
is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is 
unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' 
But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is 
unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of 
what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' 
"Develop what is skillful, Sarah. It is possible to develop what is 
skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I 
would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is 
possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is 
skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to 
harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' 
But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to 
benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" 

would you make an effort to abandon what is unskillful and develop 
what is skillful or would you ask others the question
"Do you see the Abandoning and Developing as being performed by
self, or panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors, or 
meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet
room,focusing on breath?"
?

Metta,
Victor

> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah


[1]
Anguttara Nikaya IV.42
Pañha Sutta
Questions
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There 
are questions that should be answered categorically 
[straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that 
should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining 
or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be 
answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be 
put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." 
First the categorical answer,
then the qualified,
third, the type to be counter-questioned,
& fourth, the one to be set aside.
Any monk who knows which is which,
in line with the Dhamma,
is said to be skilled
in the four types of questions:
hard to overcome, hard to beat,
profound, hard to defeat.
He knows what's worthwhile
& what's not,
proficient in (recognizing) both,
he rejects the worthless,
grasps the worthwhile.
He's called one who has broken through
to what's worthwhile,
prudent,
wise. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
See also: MN 58; MN 72; SN XLIV.10; AN III.78; AN X.96. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-042.html


[2]
Anguttara Nikaya II.19
Kusala Sutta
Skillful
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what 
is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is 
unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' 
But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is 
unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of 
what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to 
you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' 
"Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is 
skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I 
would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is 
possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is 
skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to 
harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' 
But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to 
benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" 


---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
See also: DN 12; SN VI.1. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html
	
33440

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:32pm
Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6

Nåma is the dhamma that experiences an object and rúpa is the
dhamma 
that does not know anything. 
******
Nina.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Nina,

You said that 'Nama' is the dhamma that experiences an object 
and 'rupa' is the dhamma that does not know anything.

May I ask you a few questions. Is 'Nibbana' nama dhamma? If so, can 
nibbana experiences an object?

With much respect,

Htoo Naing
	
33441

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 0:55pm
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 021 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Citta can be classified in may ways. Citta can do different jobs. 
Some cittas do the job of patisandhi or linking. Some do bhavanga or 
maintaining life. Some do avajjana or contemplating on the object. So 
do vinnana ( cakkhu..s..g..j..kayavinnana ) or sense-consciousness. 
Some do sampaticchana or receiving. Some do santirana or 
investigation. 

Only one does votthapana or determining. This single citta is 
manodvara avajjana citta. It does the function of votthapana or 
determining on the object. Some cittas do the job of javana or mental 
impulse which is a swift series of 7 in most vithi varas or serial 
terms.

And some do tadarammana or retention of the sense of the object. And 
some do the job of cuti or ending of a life. 

According to their functions cittas are grouped into functional ones.

1. 19 patisandhi cittas ( same as cuti cittas )
2. 19 bhavanga cittas ( same as cuti cittas )
3. 2 avajjana cittas ( 1 is included in votthapana )
4. 10 pancavinnana cittas
5. 2 sampaticchana cittas
6. 3 santirana cittas ( 2 is included in cuti cittas )
7. 1 votthapana citta
8. 55 javana cittas
9. 11 tadarammana cittas ( 3 in santirana and 8 in cuti cittas )
10.19 cuti cittas 

So in total there will be

1. 0
2. 0
3. 1
4. 10
5. 2
6. 1
7. 1
8. 55
9. 0
10.19 0+0+1+10+2+1+1+55+0+19 = 89 cittas in total.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33442

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 1:13pm
Subject: Re: Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Christine and all,

Thank you for the notes.

I checked both the notes and the discourse SN 22.5. 

This is how I understand it:

Insight/understanding things as they really are/vipassana is a 
result of concentration as the Buddha said: "Bhikkhus, develop 
concentration. A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as 
they really are."

Insight/vipassana, like right view/sammaditthi, is 
discernment/panna. 

But insight/vipassana is not equivalent to right view/sammaditthi.

natthi jhaana.m apa~n~nassa
There is no jhana for one with no discernment

pa~n~naa natthi ajjhaayato
no discernment for one with no jhana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/25.html

There is no right concentration for one without right view.
There is no insight for one with no right concentration.

I may be wrong and comments are welcome.

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Hello KenH, Victor,and all,
> 
> KenH to Victor: "Thanks for your help. However, I do believe you 
> have jumped to the
> wrong conclusion. What is meant here by, "A bhikkhu who is
> concentrated understands things as they really are?" I think this
> refers to a moment (or moments) of vipassana."
> ----------
> 
> Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the first lines of SN 56.1, the sutta 
> Victor quoted:
> 'At. Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who 
> is concentrated understands things as they really are. [note 375]
> 
> note 375: As at 22:5; 
> ----------
> And SN 22.5 (5) Concentration reads:
> 
> Thus have I heard. At Saavatthi .... There the Blessed One said 
> this: "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who is 
> concentrated understands thins as they really are.
> "And what does he understand as it really is? The origin and 
> passing away of form; the origin and passing away of feeling; the 
> origin and passing away of perception; the origin and passing away 
> of volitional formations; the origin and passing away of 
> consciousness. (rest snipped for brevity).
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
> <kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
> > <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi Ken H and all,
> > > 
> > > Panna/wisdom also depends on concentration:
> > > 
> > > SN 56.1 Concentration [1]
> > > 
> > > At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, develop concentration. A bhikkhu who 
is 
> > > concentrated understands things as they really are.
> > > "And what does he understands as it really is?
> > <snip>
	
33443

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 4:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Nina: "We cannot speak of arising of these three charactreistics or
being caused, they are just characteristics inherent in realities."

Hi Nina,

Htoo said the same thing and I'm beginning to think so as well but it's
a bit of puzzle how this all fits together. Dukkha is a deep subject,
not easily understood. I would like to look at it in the context of
citta process. 

Larry
	
33444

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 4:39pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 79, sound and intimation

Nina: "But when there is no intention to convey a meaning to someone
else no vi~n~natti rupa."

Hi Nina,

This clarifies and also suggests that concept is a necessary element
(pannatti as meaning).

Larry
	
33445

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 5:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling?

Hi Rob,

Basically what I am looking for is more detail in citta process. For
example, feeling is obviously a big part of on-going ordinary experience
and it is said that feeing arises with every consciousness, but what
does that mean? What kind of process is happening that feeling is
experienced all the time? Is each consciousness in citta process itself
a sub-process? I see determining consciousness as predominantly
employing sanna. Does sanna also pick-up on feeling or remember a
feeling? Is investigating consciousness analytical in some sense? Does
it evoke a feeling? 

This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with feeling
in citta process?

Larry
	
33446

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Nina, Larry, and all,

I think what I would say is basically along the same line as what 
Nina said:

The five aggregates are inconstant, dukkha, not self as they are. 
They are just the way they are: inconstant, dukkha, not self.

And that which is dukkha encompass the five aggregates and the five 
aggregates encompass that which is dukkha.

On the other hand, craving that makes for further becoming is the 
origination of the dukkha, namely, that which is dukkha. 

Given the dependent origination:

From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. 
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. 
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a 
requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, 
distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this 
entire mass of the dukkha. 

The relation between what is inconstant, what is dukkha, what is not 
self can be seen as following:

Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is 
inconstant. What is inconstant is dukkha. What is dukkha is not 
self.

metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Hi Larry,
[snip]
> Now, for dukkha as the noble truth of dukkha it has a cause: 
craving. But as
> a characteristic inherent in all conditioned realities it is a 
different
> matter, just like impermanence and anatta. Impermanence and dukkha 
are
> closely connected here; what is impermanent is also no refuge,
> unsatisfactory. We cannot speak of arising of these three 
charactreistics or
> being caused, they are just characteristics inherent in realities.
> 
> Nina. 
> op 28-05-2004 01:11 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:
> 
> > Hi Sarah,
> > 
> > Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause?
> > 
> > Larry
	
33447

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 6:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Victor,

It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as amusing,
even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. This doesn't add
anything to our understanding but it is curious.

Also, do you know why upadana is translated as "clinging/sustenance"? Is
there some reference to nutriment here? 

I wonder if upadana is the sense of self or appropriation as me and
mine?

Larry
	
33448

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 7:38pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Larry,

May I ask that:

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as 
amusing,
> even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. This doesn't add
> anything to our understanding but it is curious.


What is it that is impermanent you see as amusing or laughable?

Is something that is impermanent that you see as amusing or 
laughable?



> 
> Also, do you know why upadana is translated 
as "clinging/sustenance"? 


Yes. Let me provide four references at the end of the message. You 
might also be interested to check their context.





Is
> there some reference to nutriment here? 


Do you mean nutriment as in 
Majjhima Nikaya 9
Sammaditthi Sutta
The Discourse on Right View
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html

?


> 
> I wonder if upadana is the sense of self or appropriation as me and
> mine?


I adopted the following translation from 
Samyutta Nikaya XII.2
Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
Analysis of Dependent Co-arising
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html

"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are 
clingings/sustenances: clinging/sustenance of sensuality, 
clinging/sustenance of view, clinging/sustenance of precept & 
practice, and clinging/sustenance of doctrine of self. This is 
called clinging/sustenance."



> 
> Larry

Hope it helps.

Metta,
Victor

[1]
The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or 
stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of 
clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is a 
translation of the Pali term upadana. Upadana has a hybrid meaning 
because it is used to cover two sides of a physical process 
metaphorically applied to the mind: the act of clinging whereby a 
fire takes sustenance from a piece of fuel, together with the 
sustenance offered by the fuel. On the level of the mind, upadana 
denotes both the act of clinging and the object clung to, which 
together give sustenance to the process whereby mental pain arises. 
In terms of this metaphor, pain is hot and unstable like fire, 
whereas the mental act of clinging to the five aggregates is what 
keeps the fire burning. These images are part of a larger complex of 
imagery contained in the Pali discourses, likening the processes of 
pain and its cessation to the physical processes of fire and its 
extinguishing. An understanding of this imagery helps to give a 
graphic, intuitive sense for the ways in which the Pali texts 
analyze the problem of stress and pain. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html

[2]
Once a fire has been provoked, it needs 'upadana' -- commonly 
translated as fuel -- to continue burning. Upadana has other 
meanings besides fuel, though -- one is the nourishment that 
sustains the life & growth of a tree -- and as we will see below, 
wind can also function as a fire's upadana. Thus, 'sustenance' would 
seem to be a more precise translation for the term. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2-
2.html

[3]
Another meaning for upadana is clinging, which suggests that, just 
as a tree clings to the soil that provides its sustenance, fire 
clings to its fuel. Thus the above passage could also read, 'fire 
burns with clinging and not without clinging' -- a characteristic of 
fire that was observed in other ancient Asian traditions, such as 
the Chinese I Ching, as well. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2-
2.html

[4]
To understand the implications of nibbana in the present life, it is 
necessary to know something of the way in which fire is described in 
the Pali Canon. There, fire is said to be caused by the excitation 
or agitation of the heat property. To continue burning, it must have 
sustenance (upadana). Its relationship to its sustenance is one of 
clinging, dependence, & entrapment. When it goes out, the heat 
property is no longer agitated, and the fire is said to be freed. 
Thus the metaphor of nibbana in this case would have implications of 
calming together with release from dependencies, attachments, & 
bondage. This in turn suggests that of all the attempts to describe 
the etymology of the word nibbana, the closest is one Buddhaghosa 
proposed in The Path of Purification: Un- (nir) + binding (vana): 
Unbinding. 

To understand further what is meant by the unbinding of the mind, it 
is also important to know that the word upadana -- the sustenance 
for the fire -- also means clinging, and that according to the 
Buddha the mind has four forms of clinging that keep it in bondage: 
clinging to sensuality, to views, to precepts & practices, and to 
doctrines of the self. In each case, the clinging is the passion & 
desire the mind feels for these things. To overcome this clinging, 
then, the mind must see not only the drawbacks of these four objects 
of clinging, but, more importantly, the drawbacks of the act of 
passion & desire itself. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/1.html
	
33449

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 9:35pm
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Friend Phil,

Phil: Nice talking with you James. Here's hoping that this 
topic/thread doesn't develop in a way that causes peacable James to 
retreat in the face of an uprising by (unintentially) obnoxious 
James! You know I say that with affection... :)

James: Hehehe…don't worry about that. I am now Quiet James; I have 
nothing else to say ;-)).

Metta, James
	
33450

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 9:37pm
Subject: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Friend Howard,
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, James (and Phil) -
> ==============================
> I both agree with you and disagree with you on this one, 
James. I 
> agree with you about right concentration as being mainly defined 
as attaining the 
> jhanas, especially the 1st four, and I agree that the ordinary 
level of 
> concentration typically accompanying each mindstate (i.e., the 
degree of inclination 
> for "the same" object of consciousness to be repeated in the next 
and 
> subsequent states) is not a liberating level of concentration. But 
where we seem to 
> disagree is on the issue of where the concentration occurs. As I 
see it, every 
> mental function that operates does so within a single mindstate, 
though it may 
> continue in subsequent ones. 
> I understand a mindstate to end and a new one to begin 
whenever there 
> is any change in the make-up of experience consisting in some 
factor ceasing, 
> or another commencing, or both. I don't mean to imply by this that 
a mindstate 
> must be instantaneous - in fact, I think it is probably better 
represented by 
> a cosine wave, growing, peaking, and subsiding, than by a discrete 
spike, or, 
> better yet, by a family of such waves, one for each of the 
constituents of 
> that mindstate. But all operations that occur at all are based 
within individual 
> mindstates. With regard to concentration, in particular, the 
concentration 
> that consists of sticking pretty much with the same content 
(arammana) for a 
> lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is 
concentration in the 
> conventional sense. I take that sort of "concentration" to be a 
> mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as 
being our way of grasping 
> a kind of relation among mindstates, and it has as its basis the 
paramattha 
> dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean the tendency 
(a sankhara) 
> for the content of a mindstate to repeat. In other words, James, I 
have been 
> infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic virus! ;-))
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

I'm afraid I must lack sufficient brain power to understand what you 
are saying here. ;-)) Maybe if you re-explained in more simple 
terms I could understand better and respond.

Metta, James
	
33451

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:44pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas

Dear Rob M,
I would like to draw your attention to a few texts about the processes. The
nucleus of these we find already early: Book of Analysis, Vibhanga, I am
just studying it. As we discussed before: the cittas are classified as
elements, and one may not recognize them as such. I am doing a study of
bhavanga for a Norwegian Dhamma friend I was also going to post here when I
am finished. Thus this is only about bhavangacitta for now:

<The sources: in the Abhidhamma:
Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs in the
Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that it only
occurs in the Commentaries.
Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under
contiguity-condiiton (the condition where each citta is succeeded by the
next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting-consciousness
is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that impinges on
the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of
contiguity-condition.
The Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma),Ch 3, Analysis of
the Elements (90, p. 116) speaks about different cittas succeeding one
another. When cittas are classified as elements, the sense-cognitions are
denoted as: eye-consciousness-element, etc. The vipakacitta that succeeds
this, the receiving-consciousness or sampaticchana-citta, is mind-element
(two types: one is kusala vipaka, one is akusala vipaka), and also the
adverting-consciousness, the first citta of a process is denoted as
mind-element. All other cittas, arising in processes or process freed are
mind-consciousnes element. We read:
Therein what is mind-consciousnes element? Immediately after the cessation
of the eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises mind-element;
immediately after the cessation of the mind-element that has arisen there
arises consciousness, mind, ideation (dhamma), and depending on the
aforesaid, mind-consciousnes element.>
And as discussed before, in the Path of Discrimination a very clear exposion
of processes, in <Behaviour, cariya> See in the archives.
In the Commentaries by Buddhaghosa the process cittas are redundant.
Buddhaghosa, as you know, uses the old Great Commentary that was rehearsed
at the great councils. I look at random in the Visuddhimagga: XVII, 127 etc.
Here we find all the names of the cittas such as receiving, registering,
etc. Thus this is not dated at the 10th century.
I hope this helps,
Nina. 


op 28-05-2004 14:21 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> Please keep in mind that dependent arising dates back to the Suttas
> whereas dhamma theory (paramattha dhammas) and the citta process were
> not articulated until 1500 years later (10th century). The basic
> roots of dhamma theory and the citta process come from the Suttas,
> but articulating them in the manner you are speaking did not happen
> until Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammatthasangaha.
	
33452

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri May 28, 2004 11:44pm
Subject: Re: concentration and Panna

Hi Howard, exactly, your spiral simile. But then we should look again at
your former post: "A bhikkhu who is concentrated understands things as they
really are" It can be applied to that.
The word concentration can stand for calm. We have to take the utmost care
of word meanings in different contexts. Sometimes the word citta is used for
calm, or firmness of citta. I quoted before Co texts: he taught Vinaya for
abandoning transgression (coarse defilements), sutta for eliminating medium
defilements by calm (here also samadhi is used, and it is translated as
concentration, but the meaning is calm), and Abhidhamma for eradicating
subtle defilements (latent tendencies) by wisdom.
As to calm with sutta: when reflecting on a sutta there is calm, freedom
from akusala. Is this not true? There are times for contemplating on the
Dhamma, and it depends on circumstances and inclinations when and where one
can do this. This helps to understand the Dhamma. But panna is necessary for
this. Others may have skill and inclination to develop higher degrees of
calm. This is not so much a matter of concentration, but calm, conditioned
by panna. Panna has to know whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta
(see example of brahmaviharas in previous post). Panna has to be emphasized
again. 
Samadhi arising with each citta has as function to focus on the object of
citta so that citta experiences only one object. but it falls away with the
citta. I think that the word concentration may mislead people.
with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you have to
concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they are
together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the moment of
lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by conditions. In other
suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, takes the
lead. 
When considering the practice: what has to be known now? Whatever nama or
rupa appears through one of the six doors. Panna has to become keener. It
has to know their different characteristics and later on the three general
characteristics. I cannot possibly see how there would have to be
concentration first on what appears and after that panna. But the object has
gone, concentration has gone and there is a new reality appearing. There is
no time to figure out any order, a dhamma appears already. No time to even
think of concentration. Certainly, it is there, in the company of
understanding, if there are conditions for panna. Suppose I would say: come,
let me concentrate on seeing, but then the seeing has gone when I think
about it, and I am only thinking and thinking. Never knowing what seeing is,
never realizing seeing as a nama that just appears for a moment because of
its own conditions. When panna is not developed there will be just ignorance
of realities. 
Does this make any sense to you?
Nina. 
op 28-05-2004 16:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:

> This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is
> interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of
> the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as
> above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once
> again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the
> preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding
> qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the
> near shore to the far shore."
> This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and
> is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the
> factors affect each other.
	
33453

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 0:31am
Subject: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas

Hi Nina,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Rob M,
> I would like to draw your attention to a few texts about the 
processes. The
> nucleus of these we find already early: Book of Analysis, Vibhanga, 
I am
> just studying it. As we discussed before: the cittas are classified 
as
> elements, and one may not recognize them as such. I am doing a 
study of
> bhavanga for a Norwegian Dhamma friend I was also going to post 
here when I
> am finished. Thus this is only about bhavangacitta for now:
> 
> <The sources: in the Abhidhamma:
> Ven. Nyanatiloka mentions that two or three times bhavanga occurs 
in the
> Patthana, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, thus, it is not so that 
it only
> occurs in the Commentaries.
> Conditional Relations (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma), p. 149: under
> contiguity-condiiton (the condition where each citta is succeeded 
by the
> next one):< Life-continuum to advertence>. Thus the adverting-
consciousness
> is the first citta of a process, it adverts to the object that 
impinges on
> the relevant doorway. It is conditioned by bhavanga-citta by way of
> contiguity-condition.
> The Book of Analysis (the Second Book of the Abhidhamma),Ch 3, 
Analysis of
> the Elements (90, p. 116) speaks about different cittas succeeding 
one
> another. When cittas are classified as elements, the sense-
cognitions are
> denoted as: eye-consciousness-element, etc. The vipakacitta that 
succeeds
> this, the receiving-consciousness or sampaticchana-citta, is mind-
element
> (two types: one is kusala vipaka, one is akusala vipaka), and also 
the
> adverting-consciousness, the first citta of a process is denoted as
> mind-element. All other cittas, arising in processes or process 
freed are
> mind-consciousnes element. We read:
> Therein what is mind-consciousnes element? Immediately after the 
cessation
> of the eye-consciousness-element that has arisen there arises mind-
element;
> immediately after the cessation of the mind-element that has arisen 
there
> arises consciousness, mind, ideation (dhamma), and depending on the
> aforesaid, mind-consciousnes element.>
> And as discussed before, in the Path of Discrimination a very clear 
exposion
> of processes, in <Behaviour, cariya> See in the archives.
> In the Commentaries by Buddhaghosa the process cittas are redundant.
> Buddhaghosa, as you know, uses the old Great Commentary that was 
rehearsed
> at the great councils. I look at random in the Visuddhimagga: XVII, 
127 etc.
> Here we find all the names of the cittas such as receiving, 
registering,
> etc. Thus this is not dated at the 10th century.
> I hope this helps,
> Nina. 
> 
> 
> op 28-05-2004 14:21 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:
> 
> > Please keep in mind that dependent arising dates back to the 
Suttas
> > whereas dhamma theory (paramattha dhammas) and the citta process 
were
> > not articulated until 1500 years later (10th century). The basic
> > roots of dhamma theory and the citta process come from the Suttas,
> > but articulating them in the manner you are speaking did not 
happen
> > until Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammatthasangaha.

=====

As you have probably guessed, my principal source for my statement 
was the Appendix of Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary; specifically:

citta-víthi, as well as all terms for the various functions within 
the processes of consciousness, such as ávajjana-citta, 
sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, 
cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, 
in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and 
bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, 
must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: ''Cakkhu-viññánam 
tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá (performing the 
sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam 
(cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... manoviññána-
dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... Purimá 
purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam 
dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam 
dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga-cittánam....)." cuti-citta: s. 
citta-víthi.

<end quote>

In my recent post on Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana, I mentioned 
the use of the terms "receiving", "investigating" and "registration" 
in Vism XVII 231.

I am not saying that Acariya Anuruddha invented these concepts; I 
guess what I am saying is that it was Acariya Anuruddha who plucked 
these concepts from relative obscurity and gave the "staring roles on 
centre stage" in the Abhidhammatthasangaha.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33454

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 0:38am
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Philip (and Sukin),

----------------
Ph: > This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a 
citta, a mind-moment. <snip> I don't think I've come across 
such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in 
other words. >
---------------

I certainly hope I haven't said anything original. :-) My aim is 
simply to repeat what I am learning from Nina and others but in my 
own words.

Everything that is real, in the ultimate sense, exists in one mind 
moment. Right mindfulness is a cetasika, sama-sati, but the moment 
in which it exists is a moment of Path consciousness, Magga-citta. 
Magga-citta could be called the ultimate meditation -- meditation on 
Nibbana. Mundane Path consciousness (mundane-magga-citta?) is a 
lesser form of meditation -- meditation on a conditioned reality.

And then, of course, there is jhana meditation. And there are 
other meditations that are accompanied by tranquility (passaddhi), 
but not necessarily by panna. These are, meditations on the Buddha, 
on metta, on death and on loathsomeness. In reality, they are only 
[kusala] cittas: none of them is a formal procedure that can be 
ritualistically carried out.

---------------
<. . . .>
Ph: > I wonder what I mean by conditioned?. I tend to throw around 
terms that I've read about but not yet properly understood. I think 
of conditionned in this case as, for example in my case, sitting on 
a 
cushion with a coffee (cheating!) as soon as I have gotten up and 
taken a pee and done a few calesthenics. It's my morning routine. I 
do it without thinking because I have done it so often before. No 
hopes of ganing anything in particular from my meditation, but open 
to any insights that arise. Do I want to gain something? Well, I 
want 
to understand akusala better, to make progress- I admit- in 
beginning 
to eradicate defilements. >
---------------

That's a good point you make: If meditation is something we do 
naturally, as part of our daily routine, does that preclude it from 
being a "superstitious rite or ritual?" Is wrong view necessarily 
involved? Many otherwise-hard-headed dsg people say it is OK; there 
is not necessarily wrong view. But other forthright folk, Sukin for 
one, say it is a sign of wrong view. (Hope I haven't got you wrong 
there, Sukin.) 

I go along with Sukin. If meditation is something more than mental 
relaxation, then it must entail the view of a controlling self. 
Sorry Phil, we have spoken. :-)

-----------------
Ph: I can't speak for more advanced practicioners, but I think 
meditation is very helpful for beginners.
-----------------

Most helpful for beginners would be to directly understand what a 
beginner really is. We beginners see, hear, think etc., with 
attachment (sometimes with anger or just plain ignorance) almost 
every moment of the waking day. If we have trained our minds to 
wait for a moment of non-attachment before being mindful of the 
realities that have arisen, then we will be waiting for a long time.

-------------
PH: > We are provided with a workshop on the cushion, an 
opportunity to sit quietly and watch the way thoughts come and go. 
For people who have lived for years at the mercy of their thoughts, 
sitting and observing them is very liberating. And leads to more 
observation in the day that follows. >
-------------

Agreed. But football and chess are also good for us - - that 
doesn't make them part of the Middle Way.

-------------
<. . . .>
PH: > The awareness of thoughts on the cushion is 
just a warm-up for more awareness during the day to come. It leads 
to 
(conditions?) more awareness later in the day, in my opinion.
--------------

Yes, but can you direct your mind to just one, single, thought 
(concept)? I'd say not: when we think we are being aware of a 
concept, there is only thinking of a concept. Or there is thinking 
of thinking of a concept. The whole exercise is futile.

--------------

KH: > >The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors 
for enlightenment. > >

Ph: > Are you referring to the 7 factors, the bojjhanga? 

--------------

Tut tut! Have you been following all the threads on DSG or just the 
ones you are involved in? :-) I shouldn't criticise: I am a man of 
leisure (no job, no kids) and yet I still don't absorb all the 
information on DSG.

I, along with Victor, Rob Ep, Jon and others, have been talking 
about the factors for enlightenment (as distinct from the factors 
*of* enlightenment). They are: association with the wise, hearing 
the Dhamma, wise reflection on the Dhamma and practice in accordance 
with the Dhamma. 

------------------------
Ph: > So the concentration that rises as a citta accompanying other 
cittas, 
[KH: I think you meant to type, "as a cetasika accompanying other 
cetasikas"] 
universally, and the right concentration that is a path factor - are 
they the same thing? I am not fretting about trying to figure this 
out, yet, but I will continue to think about it.
----------------------

Yes, the cetasika, concentration (samadhi, ekagatta) always 
performs the same functions, be it in a wholesome way or an in 
unwholesome way. 

At a moment of supramundane Path consciousness, I think it is fair 
to say it has additional, kilesa-destroying, functions.

-----------------
<. . .>
Ph: > Contemplating concepts - that's something I want to ask about, 
but 
I will do it in another thread someday. Contemplating and allowing 
ideas to arise on a topic without forcing the issue. Very helpful, I 
think but I guess it's very hard to do in a way that is not about 
self seeking to gain something. >
-----------------------------

Sounds like a good topic; I look forward to it. In the meantime, 
remember that understanding, here and now, is the key: don't think 
of Dhamma practice as `something to go out and do.'

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33455

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:12am
Subject: Paticcasamuppada and citta process (was Re: feeling?)

Hi Larry,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> Basically what I am looking for is more detail in citta process. For
> example, feeling is obviously a big part of on-going ordinary 
experience
> and it is said that feeing arises with every consciousness, but what
> does that mean? What kind of process is happening that feeling is
> experienced all the time? Is each consciousness in citta process 
itself
> a sub-process? I see determining consciousness as predominantly
> employing sanna. Does sanna also pick-up on feeling or remember a
> feeling? Is investigating consciousness analytical in some sense? 
Does
> it evoke a feeling? 
> 
> This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with 
feeling
> in citta process?

Let's look at vedana (I am going to use the term vedana 
because "feeling" carries with it too much baggage linked to 
emotion). Vedana has the characteristic of providing the direct and 
full experience of the object. The function of vedana is 
to "experiencing the taste/flavour of an object".

Let's go through the 17 cittas in the sense-door process and consider 
the role of vedana in each citta.

Citta 1 - 3: Bhavanaga
======================
This will be one of the eight mahavipaka cittas; the object of these 
cittas are from the previous life (kamma, kamma-nimitta, gati-
nimitta). Four of these cittas are with neutral vedana, four are with 
pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the nature 
of the object determines the type of associated vedana; an 
intrinsically desireable neutral (ittha) object will condition 
neutral vedana while an intrinsically extremely desireable (ati-
ittha) object will condition pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I 
could be wrong) that a person having a bhavanga citta with pleasant 
vedana will tend to be more jovial that a person having a bhavanga 
citta with neutral vedana.

Citta 4: Adverting
==================
This citta includes the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas, 
initial application, sustained application and determination. It is 
accompanied by indifferent vedana. This citta is functional (kiriya); 
it is not associated with kamma. Cetasikas in this citta are weak 
because the external object (the object of this citta) has not 
been "contacted" yet. When the mind starts to concentrate, one-
pointedness comes into play. The mind concentrates attention on the 
source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Attention is the 
prominent cetasika, supported by one-pointedness. This concentration 
of attention adverts the mind and turns it toward the external 
object. Attention makes the mind different from the previous 
(bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind to advert to the new object.

Citta 5: Sense Consciousness
============================
Conditions supporting the arising of a sense-consciousness citta 
include:
- Falling away of the five-sense-door adverting citta
- Door at which the object appears (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body)
- Intrinsic quality of the object (undesirable, neutral, desirable) 

Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten 
sense-consciousness cittas will arise:
- An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka to arise
- A neutral or desirable object will cause kusala vipaka to arise 

The sense-consciousness citta has the function of seeing, hearing, 
smelling, tasting or touching. This is "pure sensing"; there is no 
processing of the sensory input. This citta is the resultant (vipaka) 
of a past kammic action (either akusala or kusala) which has now 
found conditions to ripen.

This citta has only the seven ethically variable universal cetasikas. 
Contact is the prominent cetasika; it has the characteristic of 
touching the object and the function of causing the consciousness and 
the object to impinge. Contact in eye-consciousness, ear-
consciousness, nose-consciousness and tongue-consciousness cittas 
always produces indifferent vedana while contact in akusala body-
consciousness citta produces painful vedana and contact in kusala 
body-consciousness citta produces pleasurable vedana.

Imagine that we have five anvils with a cotton ball on each. The 
cotton balls represent eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sensitivity. 
- In the first four cases, the cotton ball on the anvil is struck by 
another cotton ball; visible object, sound, odour and taste. In the 
first four cases, the anvil does cannot detect the striking and no 
feeling arises.
- The cotton ball of body sensitivity is struck by a hammer of touch. 
In this case, the anvil detects the striking and vedana is either 
painful or pleasurable. Vedana arising with body-consciousness can 
only be painful or pleasurable, never neutral.

In this analogy, the anvil and the hammer are "primary rupas", while 
the cotton balls are "derived rupas".

Citta 6: Receiving
==================
If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka receiving 
citta will arise. If the object is neutral or desirable, kusala 
vipaka receiving citta will arise. The receiving citta is the 
resultant of the same kammic action which gave rise to the sense-
consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven ethically variable 
universal cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application 
and determination. Receiving citta is accompanied by indifferent 
vedana.

Awareness of the object which has been contacted by the sense-
consciousness citta conditions the strengthening of vedana. Vedana 
provides a direct and full experience of the object. The arising of 
vedana occurs on the initial application of attention. Vedana is the 
prominent cetasika in this vedana, supported by initial application. 

Citta 7: Investigating
======================
The function of this citta is to analyze the object by looking for 
marks of differentiation.

If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka 
investigating citta will arise. If the object is neutral, kusala 
vipaka investigating citta with neutral vedana will arise. If the 
object is intrinsically desirable, kusala vipaka investigating citta 
with pleasant vedana will arise. The investigating citta is the 
resultant (vipaka) of the same kammic action which gave rise to the 
sense-door consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven 
universal ethically variable cetasikas plus initial application, 
sustained application and determination. The cetasika of enthusiasm 
also arises if the citta is accompanied by pleasant vedana (piti 
always accompanies pleasant vedana). 

The initial application from the receiving citta gives way to a 
deeper sustained application. This investigation from the sustained 
application allows the object to be recalled. Perception is the 
prominent cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. 
The role of perception in this citta is recall; perception notes the 
qualities of the object and recognizes that the object has been 
perceived before.

Citta 8: Determining
====================
The function of this citta is to come to a conclusion regarding the 
object.

The previous three cittas (eye-consciousness, receiving and 
investigating) were either akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka, depending 
on the type of kamma which caused them to arise. The force behind the 
object may impact our vedana (from receiving citta) and our 
understanding (from investigating citta), but does not decide our 
reaction to the object. The role of the determining citta is to 
determine and define, It discriminates (differentiates) and defines 
(limits) the object to separate it from the surroundings.

The determining citta includes the seven universal ethically variable 
cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application, 
determination and energy. The prominent cetasika in this citta is 
attention supported by determination.

Whereas in the adverting stage, attention controlled the mind to 
advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention 
controls the javana. This control is strengthened through conviction, 
which is the characteristic of determination.

According to the Abhidhamma, what psychologists commonly 
call "apprehension" is three processes (receiving / discrimination -> 
investigating / analysis -> determining / concluding) arising in a 
natural sequence.

Citta 9 - 15: Javana
====================
The falling away of the determining citta is one of the conditions 
for the arising of the Javana cittas, however it is natural decisive 
support condition that determines which type of Javana citta will 
arise. 

It is in the javana stage of the process that kamma is created. The 
weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the 
volition . It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong 
the volition will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting 
kamma.

If one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental states will:
- Cling to the object (lobha accumulations)
- Have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations)
- Be indifferent to the object (moha accumulations)

If one has kusala accumulations, the object of the process will 
be "seen as it truly is" (with wise attention / yoniso manasikara).

Lobha-mula cittas can arise with neutral vedana or with pleasant 
vedana. It is natural decisive support that "decides" the type of 
vedana which arises. Note that pleasant vedana is a condition for 
piti (enthusiasm) to arise and this in turn strengthens volition 
(cetana) resulting in stronger resultant kamma.

Dosa-mula cittas always arise with unpleasant vedana and moha-mula 
cittas always arise with neutral vedana. My gut reaction is to say 
that this is conditioned through root condition, but this leaves the 
question as to why pleasant vedana is not always conditioned by lobha 
root.

Citta 16 - 17: Registration 
===========================
These cittas perform the function of carrying forward the object to 
the next process. These cittas are vipaka, the resultant of the same 
kamma which caused the eye consciousness citta, the receiving citta 
and the investigating cittas. When present, there are two 
registration cittas in succession. Perception is the prominent 
cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. In this 
citta, perception plays the role or recall. The vedana in this citta 
will follow the vedana in the investigating citta.


Larry, let's now try to relate this to paticcasamuppada.

Contact is the primary cetasika in sense consciousness citta as 
contacting the object is the role of the sense consciousness citta.

Vedana is the primary cetasika in the receiving citta; the function 
of vedana is to get the experience of the object (together with 
initial application) and this is what the receiving citta does. One 
might be able to argue that vedana also plays an important role in 
the investigating citta as this is where sustained application 
together with perception play a more important role. This is 
supported by Vism XVII 231 which states that eye-contact (ear-
contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, 
investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive 
support condition.

In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that 
craving is defined as craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, 
odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data). This is not a citta or a 
cetasika; this is an accumulation. This is supported by Vism 237 - 
238 which explains that the link between feeling and craving is 
through natural decisive support condition (i.e. accumulations at 
work).

In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that 
clinging is defined as sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, 
rite-and-ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and 
ditthi) through natural decisive support condition. These are the 
javana cittas of the citta process.

In summary, we can make a mapping of paticcasamuppada into the citta 
process as follows:
- Contact -> sense consciousness
- Vedana -> receiving, investigating and registration cittas
- Craving -> accumulations that tigger natural decisive support 
condition (conditions the arising of appropriate javana citta)
- Clinging -> lobha and ditthi in the javana cittas

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	


33456

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:26am
Subject: Vedana

Hi All,

We can probably say that unpleasant mental feeling in dosa-mula 
cittas arises through:
- Root condition
- Conascence condition
- Mutuality condition
- Support condition
- Association condition
- Presence condition
- Nondisappearance condition

We could probably say that neutral mental feeling arises in moha-mula 
cittas through the same conditions.

There can be either pleasant mental feeling or neutral mental feeling 
with lobha-mula cittas. It seems to me that the deciding factor as to 
which type of feeling arises would have to be natural decisive 
support condition. It does not seem right to me that the intrinsic 
quality (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) of the object would play a role.

This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions 
would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of 
conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	

 	 

	
33457

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:39am
Subject: Kamma

Hi All,

Let's take a closer look at kamma condition as described in the 
Patthana.

There are two types of kamma-condition:
- conascent kamma condition (sahajata-kammapaccaya)
- asynchronous kamma condition (nanakkhanika-kammapaccaya)

Conascent kamma condition is the "boring" type of kamma condition 
that allows 89 cetanas in all 89 cittas (irrespective of jati) to:
- coordinate the functions of all of the other cetasikas
- condition the arising of citta-born rupa at rebirth
- condition the arising of kamma-born rupa at rebirth

Asynchronous kamma condition is the "interesting" type of kamma. 

With asynchronous kamma condition, the conditioning factors are the 
33 past kusala and akusala cetanas. This includes:
- 12 kamavacara akusala cetanas
- 8 kamavacara kusala cetanas
- 5 rupavacara kusala cetanas
- 4 arupavacara kusala cetanas
- 4 lokutara kusala (path) cetanas

With asynchronous kamma condition, the conditioned factors are:
- 36 vipaka cittas (with their 38 associated cetasikas)
- 7 kamavacara akusala vipaka cittas
- 8 kamavacara kusala vipaka cittas
- 8 kamavacara mahavipaka cittas
- 5 rupavacara vipaka cittas
- 4 arupavacara vipaka cittas
- 4 lokutara vipaka (fruit) cittas
- kamma-born rupas at rebirth (including asanna-bhava "rebirth")
- kamma-born rupas during existence

Kamma-born rupas are:
- Earth
- Water
- Fire
- Wind
- Visible Object 
- Odour
- Flavour
- Nutrition
- Eye Sense
- Ear Sense
- Nose Sense
- Tongue Sense
- Body Sense
- Feminine
- Masculine
- Life
- Heart
- Space

It is interesting to note that:
- Visible object, the object of eye sense, is a kamma-born rupa
- Odour, the object of nose sense, is a kamma-born rupa
- Flavour, the object of tongue sense, is a kamma-born rupa
- Earth / fire / wind, the object of body sense, are kamma-born rupas

However, sound, the object of ear sense, is NOT a kamma-born rupa. 
Why is this?

Note that visible object, odour, flavour, earth / fire / wind can 
also be born from citta, temperature and nutrition.

Now imagine that an accident happens to me; a brick falls on my toe. 
Is this my kamma? The brick is not kamma-born rupa. Whatever 
imbalance caused the brick to fall was not caused by asynchronous 
kamma condition (none of the conditioned factors can push a brick). I 
suspect that the brick hitting my toe had nothing to do with kamma. 
If this is true, how can one say that "what happens to me is due to 
my kamma"?

Any ideas?

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33458

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 4:11am
Subject: Heart thing

Hi All,

A lurker sent me the following message off-list. I am choosing to 
reply here.

=====

Hi Rob :)

in few places, seems like all of them in thai forest tradition
there is something about heart.

"The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas"
by Phra Bhuridatto (Mun)Wat Srapathum [Bangkok]
states:
[...]
"What runs?"
"What runs quickly is viññana,
movements walking in a row,
one after another. Not doubting that saññas are right,
the heart gets caught up in the running back & forth.
Saññas grab hold of things outside
and pull them in to fool the mind,
Making it think in confusion & go out searching,
wandering astray.
They fool it with various dhammas,
like a mirage."
"What gains total release from the five khandhas?"
"The heart, of course, & the heart alone.
It doesn't grasp or get entangled.
No more poison of possessiveness,
    no more delusion,
    it stands alone.
No saññas can fool it into following along
behind them."

[...]

and now, in your EXCELENT text, 

[...]At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka 
citta
s conditions rupa through:
- Conascence condition.
- Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa).[...]

would you please tell me what this heart thing is?

=====

My reply is as follows:

You wrote, "seems like all of them in thai forest tradition". I 
disagree. "Heart" is a very important concept in many Mahayana 
traditions (Prajnaparamita Heart Sutta is highly revered).

It would appear that in the first case, the author is using the 
term "heart" in a contemporary fashion to mean "mind", especially the 
emotional aspect of "mind". For example, in conventional speech, what 
do you mean when you say, "to follow my heart", "in my heart, I 
feel...", "I love you with all my heart"? In all cases, it is the 
emotional aspect of mind.

In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" (hadayavatthu). 
Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual 
of Abhidhamma (p 144):
According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical 
support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense 
consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their 
bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly 
mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, 
simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element 
and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, 
subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity 
situated within the physical heart. 

<end quote>

The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111-
113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered 
in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that 
sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient 
Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood 
makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was 
centred in the heart.

The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common 
understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that matter 
in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the author 
of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but 
did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from the 
point of the Abhidhamma. 

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33459

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:37am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi, Larry -

In a message dated 5/28/04 10:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as amusing,
> even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. 
====================
Exactly so. But what is impermanent is a source of suffering when clung to.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33460

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 6:42am
Subject: Birth as dukkha (was:Do or not do something)

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon and Sarah,
> 
> Given the quote provided by Sarah, it is stated in Sammohavinodani 
> that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death 
> is not itself dukkha.
> 
> This view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, 
> death is not itself dukkha" directly contradicts to what the Buddha 
> taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, old 
> age is dukkha, death is dukkha. 
> 
> Do you mean that because the five aggregates of clinging/sustenance 
> are dukkha, birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
> dukkha, death is not itself dukkha? 
> 
> or 
> 
> Do you mean that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha?
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

I do not see the Sammohavinodani passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting
the first Noble Truth.

The passage explains that birth is suffering in the sense of being the
*basis for the arising of suffering*, rather than in the sense of *being
itself suffering*. Thus it elucidates which of these 2 possible meanings
is the intended one.

As I see it, there are at least 2 obvious possible meanings of 'birth',
'old age' and 'death' in the statement of the first Noble Truth. These
are: (a) birth, old age and death, taken individually, as the act of being
born, of growing old and of dying, and (b) birth, old age and death, taken
together, as the fact of being born, i.e., living (in samsara), and being
bound to continue so.

The Sammohavinodani seems to be saying that the idea of birth as *the
(mere) act of being born* is not the intended meaning of birth in the
first Noble Truth.

Thinking about this, if the mere acts of birth, old age and death were the
dukkha of the first Noble Truth, then I suppose much of one's life would
not be dukkha, since birth and death are once-in-a-lifetime occurrences,
and for most of the rest of the time there is no (obvious) indication of
old age, no actual sorrow, no separation from the liked, etc.

To me, the meanings ascribed by the Sammohavinodani to birth, old age and
death are consistent with the statement of the first Noble Truth read as a
whole, i.e., having regard in particular to the words 'in short, the 5
groups of existence connected with clinging are suffering' that invariably
follow the mention of birth, old age and death.

So, birth is dukkha, in the sense of being the basis for the arising of
dukkha, rather than in the sense of being itself dukkha. 

Jon

PS From a purely semantic point of view also, there is no direct
contradiction between the statement "birth is dukkha" (in the first Noble
Truth) and the statement "birth is not itself dukkha" (in the
Sammohavinodani). Note that the Sammohavinodani does not assert that
birth is not suffering.


	
33461

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 6:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hasituppada

--- hasituppada <hasituppada@y...> wrote: > 
> Dear Jon ,
> 
> I also contribute to the inference that all Sutta have to be 
> understood as they are without trying to stretch the meaning 
> further. All Suttas explain the basic principles of the Buddha's 
> teachings as exposed in the Dhammachakka pavattana Sutta. There was 
> no necessity for the Buddha to teach more than the principles to set 
> the disciple to sit to meditate and experience for himself the 
> anicca, dukkha and anatma. 

I take your point about not 'stretching' the meaning of suttas. However,
are you rejecting the need for some expansion of the meaning of some
suttas, from other parts of the Tipitaka, or from the commentaries? How
do you regard the 2 kinds of teachings mentioned in the sutta quoted by
Victor?

Jon

Anguttara Nikaya II.25
Neyyattha Sutta
A Meaning to be Inferred
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who 
explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose 
meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse
whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose 
meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." 
----------------------------------------------------------------



	
33462

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:03am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, James -

In a message dated 5/29/04 1:00:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
buddhatrue@y... writes:

> I'm afraid I must lack sufficient brain power to understand what you 
> are saying here. ;-)) Maybe if you re-explained in more simple 
> terms I could understand better and respond.
> 
==================
I apologize for not being clearer. I think the bottom-line on what I 
was saying could be formulated as follows: I see one-pointedness as a basic 
mental function, I interpret it to be the inclination (a sankhara) to stick with 
or repeat the current object ot awareness (or whatever variation of it arises) 
in subsequent mindstates, and I see it as arising as an aspect of a 
mindstate. The stronger that inclination is, the more frequently awareness takes "the 
same" object, and the less frequently attention diverts to other objects as 
mindstates change. The one-pointedness formation is, as I see it, is the 
paramattha dhamma that is the basis for conventional concentration. 
Conventional concentration, per force, is seen as occuring across a 
span of mindstates, by its very definition - sticking with "the same" object for 
a period of time even as other factors may change, and it wouldn't make sense 
to attempt to apply the notion within a single mindstate. But that is not the 
case for the cetasika of one-pointedness. It is a paramattha dhamma, a 
fabricator of sorts which influences the content of consciousness, and it always 
occurs within a mindstate. I also see other mental factors, for example 
effort/energy/viriya, mindfulness, and clarity (clear comprehension) as serving to 
support the function of one-pointedness, which in turn is supportive of the 
others.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33463

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> I quoted before Co texts: he taught Vinaya for
> abandoning transgression (coarse defilements), sutta for eliminating medium
> defilements by calm (here also samadhi is used, and it is translated as
> concentration, but the meaning is calm), and Abhidhamma for eradicating
> subtle defilements (latent tendencies) by wisdom.
> 
======================
I would concur with this, but only so long as "Abhidhamma" was being 
used in the generalized sense of "detailed analysis of dhammas and their 
relations," and not in the sense of Abhidhamma Pitaka, because everything that one 
requires is available in the Sutta Pitaka and (for the monks) the Vinaya 
Pitaka.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33464

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> I think that the word concentration may mislead people.
> with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you have to
> concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they are
> together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the moment of
> lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by conditions. In other
> suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, takes the
> lead. 
> 
=========================
They are mutually supportive, as in the spiral analogy. But there are 
numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as predecessor to 
insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara Nikaya.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33465

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> As to calm with sutta: when reflecting on a sutta there is calm, freedom
> from akusala. Is this not true?
> 
---------------------------------------
Howard:
For some people at some times. For doctrinnaire followers of other 
religions or for some materialists or sceptics there might only be anger and 
upset.
--------------------------------------
There are times for contemplating on the> 
> Dhamma, and it depends on circumstances and inclinations when and where one
> can do this. This helps to understand the Dhamma. But panna is necessary for
> this. Others may have skill and inclination to develop higher degrees of
> calm. This is not so much a matter of concentration, but calm, conditioned
> by panna. Panna has to know whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta
> (see example of brahmaviharas in previous post). Panna has to be emphasized
> again. 
> 
=======================
Concentration is important even here. Calm supports concentration, 
aand concentration supports understanding.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33466

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> When considering the practice: what has to be known now? Whatever nama or
> rupa appears through one of the six doors. Panna has to become keener. It
> has to know their different characteristics and later on the three general
> characteristics. I cannot possibly see how there would have to be
> concentration first on what appears and after that panna. But the object has
> gone, concentration has gone and there is a new reality appearing. There is
> no time to figure out any order, a dhamma appears already. No time to even
> think of concentration. Certainly, it is there, in the company of
> understanding, if there are conditions for panna. Suppose I would say: come,
> let me concentrate on seeing, but then the seeing has gone when I think
> about it, and I am only thinking and thinking. Never knowing what seeing is,
> never realizing seeing as a nama that just appears for a moment because of
> its own conditions. When panna is not developed there will be just ignorance
> of realities. 
> Does this make any sense to you?
> Nina. 
> 
======================
One needn't *think* of concentration. In fact, doing so would be a 
distraction. One merely exerts energy in attending to something (of value), and 
supported by a degree of calm already in place and by increasing mindfulness, 
one-pointedness increases, which in turn supports further calm, attention, 
mindfulness, and "easy energy".

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33467

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 8:12am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 022 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Cittas can still be classified depending on where they have to 
depend. No citta can arise without rupa where they have to depend 
with the only exception of arupavacara cittas.

1. 2 cakkhu vinnana cittas ( 1 akusala and 1 kusala )have to depend 
on cakkhu pasada rupa. Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Vinnana is made 
up of 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means 'distinctly, distinguishingly, 
particularly, especially' and 'nana' means knowledge or awareness or 
knowing. Pasada means 'orderly arranged in clear manner'. Pasada 
rupas are sense receptors such as eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.

But these eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body of conventional things are 
not of pasada rupa. Eyes that we can see with our eyes are not cakkhu 
pasada and other sense organ like ear, nose, tongue, body what we can 
see, smell, hear, taste, touch are not of pasada rupa. Pasada rupa 
are subtle rupa called sukhuma rupa. Cakkhu pasada rupa is also caled 
cakkhu vatthu. Vatthu means 'place to stand' 'site to dwell' 'home to 
live' 'material to depend'.

2. 2 sota vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on sota 
vatthu. Sota means 'related to ear'.

3. 2 ghana vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on 
ghana vatthu. Ghana means 'related to nose'.

4. 2 jivha vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on 
jivha vatthu. Jivha means 'related to tongue'.

5. 2 kaya vinnana cittas ( akusala and kusala )have to depend on kaya 
vatthu.

10 pancavinnana cittas ( 5 akusala and 5 kusala ) have to depend on 5 
panca vatthu.

6. 33 cittas always depend on hadaya vatthu. These 33 are 3 
manodhatus namely 1 pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana 
cittas ( kusala and akusala ), 3 santirana cittas of 1 akusala 
santirana, 1 upekkha santirana, 1 somanassa santirana cittas, 8 
mahavipaka cittas ( half somanassa and half upekkha, again each half 
has half nanasampayutta and half nana vippayutta, and again these 4 
halves have half asankharika and half sasankharika ), 2 dosa cittas 
of 1 asankharika and 1 sasankharika citta, 1 sotapatti magga citta , 
1 hasituppada citta, and 15 rupavacara cittas.

3 manodhatu + 3 santirana + 8 mahavipaka + 2 dosa + 1 sotapatti magga 
+ 1 hasituppada + 15 rupavacara = 33 cittas always have to depend on 
hadaya vatthu.

7. 42 cittas sometimes have to depend on hadaya vatthu and sometimes 
do not have to depend on hadaya vatthu. This sometimes means 'when in 
arupa brahma bhumi'. In pancavokara bhumis that is bhumis where all 5 
khandhas or agreegates are present, these 42 cittas always have to 
depend on hadaya vatthu. When in catuvokara bhumis that is when in 
arupa brahma bhumis where there is only 4 nammakkhandhas are present, 
these 42 cittas do not have to depend on hadaya vatthu. 4 
namakkhandhas are 1.vedanakkhandha, 2. sannakkhandha, 3. 
sankharakkhandha, and 4. vinnanakkhandha.

42 cittas here are 8 kama kusala cittas, 4 arupa kusala cittas, 10 
akusala cittas ( 12 - 2 dosa which depend on hadaya ), 8 mahakiriya 
cittas, 4 arupa kiriya cittas, 7 of 8 lokuttara cittas ( 8 - 1 
sotapatti magga citta which depend on hadaya vatthu ) and 1 
manodvaravajjana citta. 8 + 4 + 10 + 8 + 4 + 7 + 1 = 42 cittas.

8. 4 cittas never have to depend on any vatthu. These 4 cittas are 4 
arupavipaka cittas. As vipaka cittas they are patisandhi, bhavanga 
and cuti cittas of arupa brahmas and they are dvara vimutti cittas 
that is they do not have to depend on dvara and they also do not have 
to depend on any vatthu.

10 cittas have to depend on pancavatthu.
33 cittas always have to depend on hadaya vatthu.
42 cittas depend on hadaya vatthu while in pancavokara bhumis and
do not depend on hadaya vatthu while in catuvokara bhumis.
4 cittas never depend on any vatthu.

10 + 33 + 42 + 4 = 89 cittas.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33468

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 9:04am
Subject: Re: Birth as dukkha (was:Do or not do something)

Hi Jon,

Ok, I take your words that you do not see the Sammohavinodani 
passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting the first Noble Truth.

If one doesn't see the contradiction, then one doesn't see it. 

It would be futile for one to help a blinded person to see a dot by 
simply pointing to the dot.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon and Sarah,
> > 
> > Given the quote provided by Sarah, it is stated in 
Sammohavinodani 
> > that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, 
death 
> > is not itself dukkha.
> > 
> > This view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
dukkha, 
> > death is not itself dukkha" directly contradicts to what the 
Buddha 
> > taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, 
old 
> > age is dukkha, death is dukkha. 
> > 
> > Do you mean that because the five aggregates of 
clinging/sustenance 
> > are dukkha, birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself 
> > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha? 
> > 
> > or 
> > 
> > Do you mean that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is 
dukkha?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> 
> I do not see the Sammohavinodani passage quoted by Sarah as 
contradicting
> the first Noble Truth.
[snip]
> 
> Jon
> 
> PS From a purely semantic point of view also, there is no direct
> contradiction between the statement "birth is dukkha" (in the 
first Noble
> Truth) and the statement "birth is not itself dukkha" (in the
> Sammohavinodani). Note that the Sammohavinodani does not assert 
that
> birth is not suffering.
	
33469

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 9:48am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 023 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Cittas can still be classified according to their objects. Each 
arising citta has to hold an object. Each has to take an object or 
arammana. There is no citta that does not have object or arammana. 

10 pancavinnana cittas or 10 sense-consciousness that is 2 of each of 
eye-consciousness or cakkhu vinnana cittas, ear-consciousness or 
sotavinnana cittas, nose-consciousness or ghana vinnana cittas, 
tongue-consciousness or jivhavinnana cittas, body-consciousness or 
kayavinnana cittas have to take their respective object.

Pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas of kusala and akusala 
have to take their respective arammana or object of 5 that is rupa or 
sight, sadda or sound, gandha or smell, rasa or taste, and photthabba 
or touch.

11 kamavacara vipaka cittas that is 8 mahavipaka cittas and 3 
santirana cittas and hasituppada cittas have to take kamavacara 
arammana or object that is sense-related object.

So 10 pancavinnana cittas, 3 manodhatu and 12 cittas cited above 
altogether 25 cittas always take one of kamavacara arammana or kama 
object that is senses from 5 object of sight, sound, smell, taste, 
and touch.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33470

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:17am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo: Perseverance in Dhamma, nibbana

Dear Htoo,
op 28-05-2004 21:32 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:

> Nåma is the dhamma that experiences an object and rúpa is the
> dhamma 
> that does not know anything.

Htoo: You said that 'Nama' is the dhamma that experiences an object
Is 'Nibbana' nama dhamma?
N: Yes. The Dhammasangani says, it is aruupa. Thus it is nama. This is
explained in the Expositor (p. 501) . Namati to bend. It bends faultless
dhammas "onto itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant
influence of object."

H: If so, can 
> nibbana experiences an object?
N: No. It is the object of citta that experiences it. It is unconditioned
dhamma, and thus, it could not be conditioned by object-condition nor by any
other condition. Citta and cetasika are conditioned by object-condition.
Nina.
	
33471

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:17am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling?

Hi Larry,
It accompanies each citta, it arises and falls away with the citta,
completely. Each moment there is a different feeling, it never is the same.
Also bhavanga-citta is accompanied by feeling.
Nina. 
op 29-05-2004 02:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:

> This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with feeling
> in citta process?
	
33472

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:17am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 1

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 1

The Best of Sights.

The Sutta selected for our sutta reading and discussion in the Foundation
building was the Bhaddaji Sutta Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, Ch 17, §
10). We read that Ånanda, when he was dwelling near Kosambí, in Ghosita
Park, asked Bhaddaji:

³Good Bhaddaji, what is the best of sights, what the best of sounds, what
the best of joys, what the best of conscious states, and what the best of of
becomings?²

³There is Brahmå, sir, who is overcomer, by none overcome, he is seer of
whatever may be, with power and dominion; who sees him of the Brahmås, that
is the best of sights.
There are devas of radiant splendour, in whom joy flows and overflows, who
ever and again utter a cry of: ŒJoy, oh joy!¹ who hears that sound- it is
the best of sounds.
There are the all-lustrous devas, rejoicing just in quiet, who feel joy-
that is the best of joys.
There are the devas who go to the sphere of nothingness [1] theirs is the
best of conscious states.
There are devas who go to the sphere of neither consciousness nor
unconsciousness [2] theirs is the best of becomings².

We read that Ånanda said :

³When, while one looks, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of
sights.
When, while one listens, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of
sounds.
When, while one rejoices, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of
joys.
When, while one is conscious, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of
conscious states.
When, while one has become, the cankers are destroyed- that is the best of
becomings.²

This sutta explains that the attainment of arahatship is superior to all
other experiences, even to the attainment to the highest stages of
immaterial jhåna, arúpa jhåna, which are the sphere of nothingness and the
sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. When all defilements are
eradicated at the attainment of arahatship, there will be no more rebirth,
no more ³becoming² and this is to be preferred to any kind of ³becoming².

Footnotes:

1. The third stage of immaterial jhåna, arúpa-jhåna.
2. The fourth stage of arúpa-jhåna.
******
Nina.
	
33473

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Victor,

Thanks for this explanation of upadana. It seems clear that the 
upadana link in dependent arising is precisely where self-view 
arises; although we could say it is implicit throughout much of the 
dependent arising. The four dimensions of clinging (sense objects, 
views, rites and rituals, and self views) seem like a more pointed 
way of classifying the khandhas and concepts as objects of clinging. 
Any ideas on how these four "focus" or orient objects of 
consciousness? Why not just say clinging clings to everything except 
nibbana? Translating upadana as "clinging/sustenance" brings out the 
sense of upadana as cause of dukkha (fuel for the fire). Also it 
seems clear that clinging and dukkha are "bound" together. I wonder 
by what conditions?

I don't have anything to add on amusement as a possible response to 
impermanence. It is a matter of the state of mind that apprehends 
impermanence. Analyzing a sense of humor in terms of cittas and 
cetasikas is way beyond my abilities. Care to try it?

Larry 

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 
<yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Hi Larry,
> 
> May I ask that:
> 
> Reply in context.
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> > Hi Victor,
> > 
> > It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as 
> amusing,
> > even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. This doesn't add
> > anything to our understanding but it is curious.
> 
> 
> What is it that is impermanent you see as amusing or laughable?
> 
> Is something that is impermanent that you see as amusing or 
> laughable?
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Also, do you know why upadana is translated 
> as "clinging/sustenance"? 
> 
> 
> Yes. Let me provide four references at the end of the message. 
You 
> might also be interested to check their context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is
> > there some reference to nutriment here? 
> 
> 
> Do you mean nutriment as in 
> Majjhima Nikaya 9
> Sammaditthi Sutta
> The Discourse on Right View
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> > 
> > I wonder if upadana is the sense of self or appropriation as me 
and
> > mine?
> 
> 
> I adopted the following translation from 
> Samyutta Nikaya XII.2
> Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
> Analysis of Dependent Co-arising
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html
> 
> "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are 
> clingings/sustenances: clinging/sustenance of sensuality, 
> clinging/sustenance of view, clinging/sustenance of precept & 
> practice, and clinging/sustenance of doctrine of self. This is 
> called clinging/sustenance."
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Larry
> 
> Hope it helps.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 
> [1]
> The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or 
> stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of 
> clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is 
a 
> translation of the Pali term upadana. Upadana has a hybrid meaning 
> because it is used to cover two sides of a physical process 
> metaphorically applied to the mind: the act of clinging whereby a 
> fire takes sustenance from a piece of fuel, together with the 
> sustenance offered by the fuel. On the level of the mind, upadana 
> denotes both the act of clinging and the object clung to, which 
> together give sustenance to the process whereby mental pain arises. 
> In terms of this metaphor, pain is hot and unstable like fire, 
> whereas the mental act of clinging to the five aggregates is what 
> keeps the fire burning. These images are part of a larger complex 
of 
> imagery contained in the Pali discourses, likening the processes of 
> pain and its cessation to the physical processes of fire and its 
> extinguishing. An understanding of this imagery helps to give a 
> graphic, intuitive sense for the ways in which the Pali texts 
> analyze the problem of stress and pain. 
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html
> 
> [2]
> Once a fire has been provoked, it needs 'upadana' -- commonly 
> translated as fuel -- to continue burning. Upadana has other 
> meanings besides fuel, though -- one is the nourishment that 
> sustains the life & growth of a tree -- and as we will see below, 
> wind can also function as a fire's upadana. Thus, 'sustenance' 
would 
> seem to be a more precise translation for the term. 
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2-
> 2.html
> 
> [3]
> Another meaning for upadana is clinging, which suggests that, just 
> as a tree clings to the soil that provides its sustenance, fire 
> clings to its fuel. Thus the above passage could also read, 'fire 
> burns with clinging and not without clinging' -- a characteristic 
of 
> fire that was observed in other ancient Asian traditions, such as 
> the Chinese I Ching, as well. 
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/2-
> 2.html
> 
> [4]
> To understand the implications of nibbana in the present life, it 
is 
> necessary to know something of the way in which fire is described 
in 
> the Pali Canon. There, fire is said to be caused by the excitation 
> or agitation of the heat property. To continue burning, it must 
have 
> sustenance (upadana). Its relationship to its sustenance is one of 
> clinging, dependence, & entrapment. When it goes out, the heat 
> property is no longer agitated, and the fire is said to be freed. 
> Thus the metaphor of nibbana in this case would have implications 
of 
> calming together with release from dependencies, attachments, & 
> bondage. This in turn suggests that of all the attempts to describe 
> the etymology of the word nibbana, the closest is one Buddhaghosa 
> proposed in The Path of Purification: Un- (nir) + binding (vana): 
> Unbinding. 
> 
> To understand further what is meant by the unbinding of the mind, 
it 
> is also important to know that the word upadana -- the sustenance 
> for the fire -- also means clinging, and that according to the 
> Buddha the mind has four forms of clinging that keep it in bondage: 
> clinging to sensuality, to views, to precepts & practices, and to 
> doctrines of the self. In each case, the clinging is the passion & 
> desire the mind feels for these things. To overcome this clinging, 
> then, the mind must see not only the drawbacks of these four 
objects 
> of clinging, but, more importantly, the drawbacks of the act of 
> passion & desire itself. 
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/1.html
	
33474

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 2:43pm
Subject: Paticcasamuppada and citta process (was Re: feeling?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote: ...In summary, we can make a mapping of paticcasamuppada into 
the citta
process as follows:
- Contact -> sense consciousness
- Vedana -> receiving, investigating and registration cittas
- Craving -> accumulations that trigger natural decisive support
condition (conditions the arising of appropriate javana citta)
- Clinging -> lobha and ditthi in the javana cittas.

Hi Rob,

This is great! Exactly what I was looking for. I am a little uneasy 
about calling craving accumulation. It seems to me accumulation 
(ayuhana) is part of the gear of sanna. What do you think of 
Boisvert's argument that sanna is implicit between feeling and 
craving? This seems to follow the citta process order of things.

The main question I have is what cetasika determines whether an 
object is inherently desirable or undesirable? Say there is contact 
with softness. If the object is desirable pleasant feeling will 
arise, if undesirable unpleasant feeling will arise. I imagine in 
some processes there is indecision, waffling back and forth. 

Also what does it mean to say feeling experiences softness? Are the 
two experienced at the same time or sequentially? If sequentially is 
it necessarily a whole separate process or could there be an 
experiencing of cetasikas within a process, possibly in the order in 
which they are dominant? 

I'm going to have to study-up on conditional relations in order to 
discuss them with you. Maybe I'll do that over the long weekend. It's 
a holiday on monday.

Larry 


> Hi Larry,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
> > Basically what I am looking for is more detail in citta process. 
For
> > example, feeling is obviously a big part of on-going ordinary 
> experience
> > and it is said that feeing arises with every consciousness, but 
what
> > does that mean? What kind of process is happening that feeling is
> > experienced all the time? Is each consciousness in citta process 
> itself
> > a sub-process? I see determining consciousness as predominantly
> > employing sanna. Does sanna also pick-up on feeling or remember a
> > feeling? Is investigating consciousness analytical in some sense? 
> Does
> > it evoke a feeling? 
> > 
> > This is the general area of my interest. What is happening with 
> feeling
> > in citta process?
> 
> Let's look at vedana (I am going to use the term vedana 
> because "feeling" carries with it too much baggage linked to 
> emotion). Vedana has the characteristic of providing the direct and 
> full experience of the object. The function of vedana is 
> to "experiencing the taste/flavour of an object".
> 
> Let's go through the 17 cittas in the sense-door process and 
consider 
> the role of vedana in each citta.
> 
> Citta 1 - 3: Bhavanaga
> ======================
> This will be one of the eight mahavipaka cittas; the object of 
these 
> cittas are from the previous life (kamma, kamma-nimitta, gati-
> nimitta). Four of these cittas are with neutral vedana, four are 
with 
> pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that the 
nature 
> of the object determines the type of associated vedana; an 
> intrinsically desireable neutral (ittha) object will condition 
> neutral vedana while an intrinsically extremely desireable (ati-
> ittha) object will condition pleasant vedana. I suspect (though I 
> could be wrong) that a person having a bhavanga citta with pleasant 
> vedana will tend to be more jovial that a person having a bhavanga 
> citta with neutral vedana.
> 
> Citta 4: Adverting
> ==================
> This citta includes the seven ethically variable universal 
cetasikas, 
> initial application, sustained application and determination. It is 
> accompanied by indifferent vedana. This citta is functional 
(kiriya); 
> it is not associated with kamma. Cetasikas in this citta are weak 
> because the external object (the object of this citta) has not 
> been "contacted" yet. When the mind starts to concentrate, one-
> pointedness comes into play. The mind concentrates attention on the 
> source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Attention is the 
> prominent cetasika, supported by one-pointedness. This 
concentration 
> of attention adverts the mind and turns it toward the external 
> object. Attention makes the mind different from the previous 
> (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind to advert to the new object.
> 
> Citta 5: Sense Consciousness
> ============================
> Conditions supporting the arising of a sense-consciousness citta 
> include:
> - Falling away of the five-sense-door adverting citta
> - Door at which the object appears (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body)
> - Intrinsic quality of the object (undesirable, neutral, desirable) 
> 
> Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the 
ten 
> sense-consciousness cittas will arise:
> - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka to arise
> - A neutral or desirable object will cause kusala vipaka to arise 
> 
> The sense-consciousness citta has the function of seeing, hearing, 
> smelling, tasting or touching. This is "pure sensing"; there is no 
> processing of the sensory input. This citta is the resultant 
(vipaka) 
> of a past kammic action (either akusala or kusala) which has now 
> found conditions to ripen.
> 
> This citta has only the seven ethically variable universal 
cetasikas. 
> Contact is the prominent cetasika; it has the characteristic of 
> touching the object and the function of causing the consciousness 
and 
> the object to impinge. Contact in eye-consciousness, ear-
> consciousness, nose-consciousness and tongue-consciousness cittas 
> always produces indifferent vedana while contact in akusala body-
> consciousness citta produces painful vedana and contact in kusala 
> body-consciousness citta produces pleasurable vedana.
> 
> Imagine that we have five anvils with a cotton ball on each. The 
> cotton balls represent eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sensitivity. 
> - In the first four cases, the cotton ball on the anvil is struck 
by 
> another cotton ball; visible object, sound, odour and taste. In the 
> first four cases, the anvil does cannot detect the striking and no 
> feeling arises.
> - The cotton ball of body sensitivity is struck by a hammer of 
touch. 
> In this case, the anvil detects the striking and vedana is either 
> painful or pleasurable. Vedana arising with body-consciousness can 
> only be painful or pleasurable, never neutral.
> 
> In this analogy, the anvil and the hammer are "primary rupas", 
while 
> the cotton balls are "derived rupas".
> 
> Citta 6: Receiving
> ==================
> If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka 
receiving 
> citta will arise. If the object is neutral or desirable, kusala 
> vipaka receiving citta will arise. The receiving citta is the 
> resultant of the same kammic action which gave rise to the sense-
> consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven ethically 
variable 
> universal cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application 
> and determination. Receiving citta is accompanied by indifferent 
> vedana.
> 
> Awareness of the object which has been contacted by the sense-
> consciousness citta conditions the strengthening of vedana. Vedana 
> provides a direct and full experience of the object. The arising of 
> vedana occurs on the initial application of attention. Vedana is 
the 
> prominent cetasika in this vedana, supported by initial 
application. 
> 
> Citta 7: Investigating
> ======================
> The function of this citta is to analyze the object by looking for 
> marks of differentiation.
> 
> If the object is intrinsically undesirable, akusala vipaka 
> investigating citta will arise. If the object is neutral, kusala 
> vipaka investigating citta with neutral vedana will arise. If the 
> object is intrinsically desirable, kusala vipaka investigating 
citta 
> with pleasant vedana will arise. The investigating citta is the 
> resultant (vipaka) of the same kammic action which gave rise to the 
> sense-door consciousness citta. This citta includes the seven 
> universal ethically variable cetasikas plus initial application, 
> sustained application and determination. The cetasika of enthusiasm 
> also arises if the citta is accompanied by pleasant vedana (piti 
> always accompanies pleasant vedana). 
> 
> The initial application from the receiving citta gives way to a 
> deeper sustained application. This investigation from the sustained 
> application allows the object to be recalled. Perception is the 
> prominent cetasika in this citta supported by sustained 
application. 
> The role of perception in this citta is recall; perception notes 
the 
> qualities of the object and recognizes that the object has been 
> perceived before.
> 
> Citta 8: Determining
> ====================
> The function of this citta is to come to a conclusion regarding the 
> object.
> 
> The previous three cittas (eye-consciousness, receiving and 
> investigating) were either akusala vipaka or kusala vipaka, 
depending 
> on the type of kamma which caused them to arise. The force behind 
the 
> object may impact our vedana (from receiving citta) and our 
> understanding (from investigating citta), but does not decide our 
> reaction to the object. The role of the determining citta is to 
> determine and define, It discriminates (differentiates) and defines 
> (limits) the object to separate it from the surroundings.
> 
> The determining citta includes the seven universal ethically 
variable 
> cetasikas plus initial application, sustained application, 
> determination and energy. The prominent cetasika in this citta is 
> attention supported by determination.
> 
> Whereas in the adverting stage, attention controlled the mind to 
> advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention 
> controls the javana. This control is strengthened through 
conviction, 
> which is the characteristic of determination.
> 
> According to the Abhidhamma, what psychologists commonly 
> call "apprehension" is three processes (receiving / discrimination -
> 
> investigating / analysis -> determining / concluding) arising in a 
> natural sequence.
> 
> Citta 9 - 15: Javana
> ====================
> The falling away of the determining citta is one of the conditions 
> for the arising of the Javana cittas, however it is natural 
decisive 
> support condition that determines which type of Javana citta will 
> arise. 
> 
> It is in the javana stage of the process that kamma is created. The 
> weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the 
> volition . It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong 
> the volition will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting 
> kamma.
> 
> If one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental states will:
> - Cling to the object (lobha accumulations)
> - Have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations)
> - Be indifferent to the object (moha accumulations)
> 
> If one has kusala accumulations, the object of the process will 
> be "seen as it truly is" (with wise attention / yoniso manasikara).
> 
> Lobha-mula cittas can arise with neutral vedana or with pleasant 
> vedana. It is natural decisive support that "decides" the type of 
> vedana which arises. Note that pleasant vedana is a condition for 
> piti (enthusiasm) to arise and this in turn strengthens volition 
> (cetana) resulting in stronger resultant kamma.
> 
> Dosa-mula cittas always arise with unpleasant vedana and moha-mula 
> cittas always arise with neutral vedana. My gut reaction is to say 
> that this is conditioned through root condition, but this leaves 
the 
> question as to why pleasant vedana is not always conditioned by 
lobha 
> root.
> 
> Citta 16 - 17: Registration 
> ===========================
> These cittas perform the function of carrying forward the object to 
> the next process. These cittas are vipaka, the resultant of the 
same 
> kamma which caused the eye consciousness citta, the receiving citta 
> and the investigating cittas. When present, there are two 
> registration cittas in succession. Perception is the prominent 
> cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application. In this 
> citta, perception plays the role or recall. The vedana in this 
citta 
> will follow the vedana in the investigating citta.
> 
> 
> Larry, let's now try to relate this to paticcasamuppada.
> 
> Contact is the primary cetasika in sense consciousness citta as 
> contacting the object is the role of the sense consciousness citta.
> 
> Vedana is the primary cetasika in the receiving citta; the function 
> of vedana is to get the experience of the object (together with 
> initial application) and this is what the receiving citta does. One 
> might be able to argue that vedana also plays an important role in 
> the investigating citta as this is where sustained application 
> together with perception play a more important role. This is 
> supported by Vism XVII 231 which states that eye-contact (ear-
> contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, 
> investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive 
> support condition.
> 
> In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that 
> craving is defined as craving for sensuous data (visible-data, 
sound, 
> odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data). This is not a citta or 
a 
> cetasika; this is an accumulation. This is supported by Vism 237 - 
> 238 which explains that the link between feeling and craving is 
> through natural decisive support condition (i.e. accumulations at 
> work).
> 
> In my earlier analysis of paticcasamuppada, you will note that 
> clinging is defined as sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, 
> rite-and-ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and 
> ditthi) through natural decisive support condition. These are the 
> javana cittas of the citta process.
> 
> In summary, we can make a mapping of paticcasamuppada into the 
citta 
> process as follows:
> - Contact -> sense consciousness
> - Vedana -> receiving, investigating and registration cittas
> - Craving -> accumulations that tigger natural decisive support 
> condition (conditions the arising of appropriate javana citta)
> - Clinging -> lobha and ditthi in the javana cittas
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33475

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> In-&-out breathings, fabrications, fabricated, are inconstant, 
> dukkha, not self.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

As far as I know, there's no direct statement to this effect in the texts.

What is found in the texts are the statements that (1) all conditioned
dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, and (2) kaaya-sankhaara is
in-&-out breathing. As I have previously explained, however, we cannot
conclude from this that in-&-out breathing is anicca/dukkha/anatta, since
the different uses of 'sankhara' cannot be substituted for each other in a
straightforward manner.

If you have a copy of the 'Collected Discourses of the Buddha', Bhikkhu
Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, you may like to look at his
comments on 'Sankhara' in the General Introduction (pages 44 to 47), where
he discusses the 'five major doctrinal contexts' in which the term occurs
in the Samyutta Nikaya.

For example, in the context of dependent origination, sankhara is
synonymous with 'kamma' (i.e., cetana cetasika), and kaaya-sankhaara means
kamma performed through the body door.

The sutta at 41:6 deals with cessation of perception and feeling. In note
298 (p 1442) the translator says:
"The three terms -- kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara
-- are in Pali identical with those that make up the sankhara factor of
dependent origination..., but in this context the purport is different ...
.Here, in the compounds kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, sankhara
clearly has a passive sense: what is formed or generated
('sankhariiyati') in dependence on the body or the mind."

This sense of 'being formed in dependence of the body' is of course quite
different from the cetana accompanying actions through the body door (in
the dependent origination context).

However the crucial difference, as regards the statement that all
conditioned dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, is that there is
no dhamma called in-&-out breathing.

Jon


	
33476

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:32pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Mike

--- "m. nease" <mlnease@z...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: "Jonothan Abbott" <jonoabb@y...>
> To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti
> (Concept))
> 
> > In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the
> 3
> > characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that
> we
> > conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas.
> >
> > Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that
> are
> > taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you
> > mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not
> > exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings.
> 
> I know we've discussed this difference a lot but I'm not sure I've seen
> it
> so well and succinctly articulated before. 

Thanks, Mike. It becomes clearer to me each time I come back to it, but
only of course at the intellectual level.

I do believe that understanding the significance of dhammas and their
characteristics as given in the teachings is crucial to the development of
insight.

Jon

	
33477

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 3:53pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Victor

As I have previously mentioned, the terms kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara
and citta-sankhaara are used in 2 different contexts, and have different
meanings in each.

The first sutta you mention below (SN 12:2) deals with sankhaara in the
context of dependent origination, where it is explained in terms of
bodily-, verbal- and mental-volitional formations. The explanation given
in the commentaries for these 3 terms is as follows (from Collected
Discourses of the Buddha, n. 7 at p. 727):
kaaya-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of bodily volition (kayasancetana) that
motivate activity in the body door
vacii-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of verbal volition (vaciisancetana) that
motivate verbal utterances
citta-sankhaara -- twenty-nine mundane wholesome and unwholesome mental
volitions (manosancetana) that occur privately in thought without
motivating action in the doors of body and speech.

The second sutta you mention (MN 44) deals with cessation of perception
and feeling. As you have pointed out, the description of each term given
in the suttas is as follows:
kaaya-sankhaara -- in-&-out breathing
vacii-sankhaara -- thought and examination (vitakka and vicara)
citta-sankhaara -- perception and feeling (sanna and vedana)

In that context, the 3 terms apparently refer to the different kinds of
activity that cease and as the cessation of perception and feeling is
entered into, and that later resume as the cessation of perception and
feeling is left.

In a note to SN 12:2 referred to above, the translator says that sankhaara
in the context of dependent origination should be distinguished from
sankhaara in the context of cessation of perception and feeling (note 7 at
pp 727, 728 of CDB):
"This triad of sankhara should not be confused with the triad discussed at
41:6... The latter triad is always introduced in relation to the cessation
of perception and feeling and is never brought into connection with
dependent origination."

In the context of dependent origination, kaaya-sankhaara refers to
specific dhammas that are anicca/dukkha/anatta, while in the context of
cessation of perception and feeling kaaya-sankhaara refers to in-&-out
breathing. In-&-out breathing is not a specific dhamma but is, like
'person' and 'body', a term used to denote a particular group or groups of
dhammas as generally perceived.

See my answers to your specific questions below.

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon, Mike, and all,
> 
> Let me quote the following:
> 
> <quote>
> "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily 
> fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are 
> called fabrications."
> <quote>
> Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html
> 
> <quote>
> "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" 
> 
> "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, 
> verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." 
> </quote>
> Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html
> 
> And in Cula-vedalla Sutta, it is stated that in-&-out breaths are 
> bodily fabrications.
> 
> Jon, are fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self?

Yes, it is said by the Buddha that all sankhara's are anicca, dukkha and
anatta.

> Are bodily fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self?

In the context of dependent origination, yes; in the context of cessation,
'kaaya-sankhara' does not fall within the ambit of the Buddha's atatement
that 'All sankhara are annica, dukkha and anatta'

> Are in-&-out breaths inconstant, dukkha, not self?

Same answer as for the second part of my answer to the previous question

Jon


	
33478

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 4:36pm
Subject: Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Dear Group,

For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day
disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism,
this may provide some further food for thought:

The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation
is attained:

"Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which
spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not
released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted
or
the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What
five?"

1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA
"Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent
co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually
understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When
understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight
arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
body
appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of
one
who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
the
first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells
diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
not yet attained is attained".

2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in
detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the
meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the
delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The
appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who
experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the
second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells
diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
not yet attained is attained."

3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered

Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered
and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight
arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
body
appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one
who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
the
third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells
diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
not yet attained is attained."

4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching
that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and
delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind
the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The
mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point.
Bhikkhus,
this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the
bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
of
unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."

5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED
UPON AND UNDERSTOOD.
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching
that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point.
Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is
penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted
joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased
body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences
pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the
releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel,
either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires
get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is
attained.

Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the
bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
of
unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm
OR TRY,
http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7

And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE
LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that
Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation.

Comments?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33479

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 1:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Hi Christine

I agree that understanding the Dhamma is paramount, however, there is an 
extreme emphasis in the suttas of the Buddha teaching about the importance of 
meditation (jhanas). 

I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any formal 
meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional football without 
working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that can do it, but 
most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a professional level. I 
think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation or "formal" meditation 
to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level necessary 
to attain liberation.

TG



In a message dated 5/29/2004 5:19:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:
Dear Group,

For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day
disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism,
this may provide some further food for thought:

The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation
is attained:

"Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which
spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not
released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted
or
the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What
five?"

1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA
"Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent
co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually
understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When
understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight
arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
body
appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of
one
who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
the
first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells
diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
not yet attained is attained".

2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in
detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the
meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the
delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The
appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who
experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the
second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells
diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
not yet attained is attained."

3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered

Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered
and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight
arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
body
appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one
who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
the
third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells
diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
not yet attained is attained."

4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching
that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and
delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind
the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The
mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point.
Bhikkhus,
this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the
bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
of
unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."

5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED
UPON AND UNDERSTOOD.
"Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching
that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point.
Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is
penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted
joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased
body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences
pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the
releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel,
either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires
get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is
attained.

Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the
bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
of
unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm
OR TRY,
http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7

And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE
LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that
Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation.

Comments?

metta and peace,
Christine


	
33480

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 6:02pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Hello TG, all,

It seems quite clear that formal meditation is just one of five 
ways - the other four ways (in total, the majority) relate to 
listening to, repeating, teaching and reflecting upon the Dhamma.
The fifth is not stated to be the 'icing on the cake', an 
indispensable final step, something that occurs after a little 
preliminary involvement with others.

The sutta quoted seems to be quite clear in indicating there are 
five ways (not one) for attainment to occur. Is it saying something 
other than what it seems to be stating bluntly? I see no hidden 
meaning. 

metta and peace,

Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote:
> Hi Christine
> 
> I agree that understanding the Dhamma is paramount, however, there 
is an 
> extreme emphasis in the suttas of the Buddha teaching about the 
importance of 
> meditation (jhanas). 
> 
> I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any 
formal 
> meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional 
football without 
> working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that 
can do it, but 
> most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a 
professional level. I 
> think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation 
or "formal" meditation 
> to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level 
necessary 
> to attain liberation.
> 
> TG
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 5/29/2004 5:19:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> cforsyth@v... writes:
> Dear Group,
> 
> For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day
> disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism,
> this may provide some further food for thought:
> 
> The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when 
Liberation
> is attained:
> 
> "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which
> spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not
> released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted
> or
> the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What
> five?"
> 
> 1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA
> "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent
> co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he 
gradually
> understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When
> understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight
> arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
> body
> appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of
> one
> who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
> the
> first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu 
dwells
> diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or 
the
> unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of 
unpleasantness
> not yet attained is attained".
> 
> 2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate 
in
> the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail 
the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in
> detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the
> meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the
> delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. 
The
> appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who
> experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the
> second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu 
dwells
> diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or 
the
> unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of 
unpleasantness
> not yet attained is attained."
> 
> 3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate 
in
> the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered
> 
> Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and 
mastered
> and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight
> arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
> body
> appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of 
one
> who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
> the
> third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells
> diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or 
the
> unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of 
unpleasantness
> not yet attained is attained."
> 
> 4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate 
in
> the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
> nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
> mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching
> that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and
> delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful 
mind
> the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The
> mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point.
> Bhikkhus,
> this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the
> bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
> released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
> of
> unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."
> 
> 5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED
> UPON AND UNDERSTOOD.
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate 
in
> the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
> nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
> mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the 
Teaching
> that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point.
> Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established 
is
> penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted
> joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The 
appeased
> body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences
> pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the
> releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to 
dispel,
> either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted 
desires
> get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained 
is
> attained.
> 
> Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the
> bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
> released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
> of
> unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."
> http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
> Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm
> OR TRY,
> http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7
> 
> And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE
> LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that
> Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
>
	
33481

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 8:35pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedana

Rob: "...This leaves me with the question as to why one set of
conditions would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas
another set of conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas."

Hi Rob,

I"m trying to think of an example of lobha-mula citta with neutral
feeling. Any ideas? 

Maybe there is a different set of conditions just because there are two
possible feelings, neutral and pleasant, and which one is applicable is
dependent on one's accumulations but it couldn't be unpleasant feeling
so there would also have to be an unchangable conditioning factor as
well. Natural decisive support condition isn't going to always produce
the same state. It changes as our accumulations change. But no matter
how it changes it won't produce unpleasant feeling with lobha-mula
citta. Perhaps natural decisive support could be added to the other
conditions you gave.

What would you say is the main conditioning factor between upadana and
dukkha?

Larry
-----------------------
Rob: "Hi All, 
We can probably say that unpleasant mental feeling in dosa-mula cittas
arises through: 
- Root condition 
- Conascence condition 
- Mutuality condition 
- Support condition 
- Association condition 
- Presence condition 
- Nondisappearance condition 
We could probably say that neutral mental feeling arises in moha-mula
cittas through the same conditions. 
There can be either pleasant mental feeling or neutral mental feeling
with lobha-mula cittas. It seems to me that the deciding factor as to
which type of feeling arises would have to be natural decisive support
condition. It does not seem right to me that the intrinsic quality
(anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) of the object would play a role. 
This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions would
work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of
conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas. 
Does anybody have any ideas? 
Metta,
Rob M :-)"
	
33482

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma

Rob: "It is interesting to note that: 
- Visible object, the object of eye sense, is a kamma-born rupa 
- Odour, the object of nose sense, is a kamma-born rupa 
- Flavour, the object of tongue sense, is a kamma-born rupa 
- Earth / fire / wind, the object of body sense, are kamma-born rupas 
However, sound, the object of ear sense, is NOT a kamma-born rupa. Why
is this?"

Hi Rob,

Kamma born matter is a group of living matter. The eye-decade, for
example, includes taste because we can taste an eye. The temperature
produced sound nonad, also tastable, is not living matter. The
consciousness produced vocal intimation decade and tridecade with
lightness triad are also tastable but not living organs. 

As to whether a brick falling on my head is kamma result, maybe we have
to say the brick, the falling, and my head are all consciousness.

Larry
	
33483

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:27pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Victor

I agree that the Madhupindika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 18) is an example of
a sutta whose meaning needs to be inferred. However, my question was
really directed to how one is to recognise the not-so-obvious cases (i'm
not sure if your answer addresses this).

As I mentioned in my earlier post, there are many terms used in the suttas
that can only be understood by reference to other suttas or, in some
cases, to sources outside the sutta pitaka altogether. Consider the
following terms from other threads under discussion at the moment:

1. In the Anapanasati Sutta there are numerous references to 'mindfulness
of in-&-out breathing', obviously a key term for understanding this sutta.
I know of no explanation of the meaning of this term within any sutta --
if you do, I'd be interested to know the passage.

2. In some suttas the Four Noble Truths are given as a bare statement
without any explanation, for example, <<'This is suffering,' ... 'This is
the origin of suffering,' ... 'This is the cessation of suffering,' ...
'This is the road leading to the cessation of suffering,'>> (see
Satipatthana Sutta, The Way of Mindfulness translation, below for an
example). In such cases the meaning needs to be inferred from other parts
of the Tipitaka, since the statement as it stands does not convey the
detail about birth etc as suffering (in the first Noble Truth) or the
Noble Eightfold Path as the way leading to the cessation of suffering (in
the fourth Noble Truth).

3. In many suttas where 'atta'/'anatta' is mentioned, there is no
explanation of the meaning of that expression. One needs to go to other
parts of the tipitaka (such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta) for an
explanation.

It seems to me that where there is no sufficient description of a term
within the sutta itself, the sutta is to that extent one 'whose meaning
needs to be inferred'.

Jon

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands: 'This is suffering,' according
to reality; he understands: 'This is the origin of suffering,' according
to reality; he understands: 'This is the cessation of suffering,'
according to reality; and he understands: 'This is the road leading to the
cessation of suffering,' according to realty. 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon and all
> 
> Regarding what you said:
> 
> "I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a 
> sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose 
> meaning has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we 
> can know one from the other." 
> 
> Let me give an example of what the Buddha said whose meaning needed 
> to be inferred.
> 
> Majjhima Nikaya 18
> Madhupindika Sutta
> The Ball of Honey
...
> Please also check how Ven. Maha Kaccana replied to the monks who 
> asked him to analyze the meaning of what the Buddha said and how he 
> analyze it.
> 
> 
> Metta,
> Victor


	
33484

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sat May 29, 2004 11:45pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Meaning fully drawn out' , Co.

Nina

Many thanks for this commentary material. As usual, it is extremely
useful.

Regarding your earlier remarks about the Abhidhamma and vipassana (which
you also touch on in this post), I share the view that they are to be
implied in every sutta.

The Abhidhamma is to be implied because it is the key to the terms used in
the suttas, the primer that is our guide to the dhammas that are spoken of
there.

Vipassana is to be implied because the goal of the teachings is
liberation/ enlightenment, for which vipassana is the only path, and all
the teachings are given to that end. Bearing this in mind allows us to
have a better understanding of the texts.

Thanks for the reminder.

Jon

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: > Hi Jon, Victor,
Hasituppada,
...
I shall now render part of the Co I have in Thai.

First an example of someone who says that the sutta should be explained
further: the Buddha speaks to the bhikkhus about this one person, these
two, three, four persons, etc.

The Co states:<Although the Buddha has declared this, in the ultimate
sense (paramattha) there is no person and therefore, the meaning should be
further explained....>

Another example in the Commentary about a foolish person. The three
characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta have been explained by
the Buddha: <All conditioned realities are impermanent, all conditioned
realities are dukkha, all dhammas are anatta.>

The foolish person thinks that this sutta still has to be explained
further and gives the interpretation that all conditioned realities are
permanent, all conditioned realities are happiness, sukkha, all dhammas
are self, atta.>

This is an example of a foolish person who thinks that the sutta which has
already been further explained should still be further explained.

This commentary reminds me to read the suttas very carefully, and it
explains that I need the Abhidhamma in order to understand the deep
meaning of there being no person, of anatta. It reminds me also that I
need to apply what the Abhidhamma teaches by vipassana. The three
characteristics are characteristics of ultimate realities, and thus these
should be further investigated by vipassana. This is how I feel personally
about it. 


	
33485

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:00am
Subject: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, James -
> 
> In a message dated 5/29/04 1:00:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> buddhatrue@y... writes:
> 
> > I'm afraid I must lack sufficient brain power to understand what 
you 
> > are saying here. ;-)) Maybe if you re-explained in more simple 
> > terms I could understand better and respond.
> > 
> ==================
> I apologize for not being clearer. I think the bottom-line 
on what I 
> was saying could be formulated as follows: I see one-pointedness 
as a basic 
> mental function, I interpret it to be the inclination (a sankhara) 
to stick with 
> or repeat the current object ot awareness (or whatever variation 
of it arises) 
> in subsequent mindstates, and I see it as arising as an aspect of 
a 
> mindstate. The stronger that inclination is, the more frequently 
awareness takes "the 
> same" object, and the less frequently attention diverts to other 
objects as 
> mindstates change. The one-pointedness formation is, as I see it, 
is the 
> paramattha dhamma that is the basis for conventional 
concentration. 
> Conventional concentration, per force, is seen as occuring 
across a 
> span of mindstates, by its very definition - sticking with "the 
same" object for 
> a period of time even as other factors may change, and it wouldn't 
make sense 
> to attempt to apply the notion within a single mindstate. But that 
is not the 
> case for the cetasika of one-pointedness. It is a paramattha 
dhamma, a 
> fabricator of sorts which influences the content of consciousness, 
and it always 
> occurs within a mindstate. I also see other mental factors, for 
example 
> effort/energy/viriya, mindfulness, and clarity (clear 
comprehension) as serving to 
> support the function of one-pointedness, which in turn is 
supportive of the 
> others.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Friend Howard,

Thank you for your new explanation. I guess this depends on what 
you consider the nature of cittas to be. Personally, I do believe 
in cittas but I don't believe that they last only one billionth of a 
second, as has been proposed in this group previously, and I don't 
think that they all last the same duration. Regarding the object of 
each citta, I believe that that is determined by the arising of each 
particular rupa and not any `inclination' or personal choice...but 
each citta will have an influence on each subsequent citta. Really, 
I think we are starting to get into an area of theory that is 
outside what the Buddha taught. In other words, your guess is as 
good as mine! ;-)) 

Metta, James
	


33486

From: jonoabb <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:08am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 016 )

Htoo

Thanks for some very informative posts.

I'm wondering if you could just clarify the references to 'kusala' and 'akusala' in the 
following:

> If avajjana citta is 
> akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then 
> kusala.

Thanks.

Jon

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <htootintnaing@y...> 
wrote:
> Dear Dhamma Friends,
> 
> Vithi citta series starts with avajjana citta which is a 
> contemplating mind which contemplates on arammana or object. Due to 
> its contemplation it knows that the object comes through one of 5 
> sense door but the citta immediately falls away.
> 
> Next arises pancavinnana citta. If the object is rupa, cakkhuvinnana 
> citta arise, if sadda or sound sotavinnana citta, if gandha or smell 
> ghanavinnana citta, if rasa or taste jivhavinana citta, and if 
> photthabba or touch kayavinnana citta arises. If avajjana citta is 
> akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala then 
> kusala.
	

	


33487

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:15am
Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi Nina and Howard

Enjoying your discussion but would like to interrupt it with a riddle.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Nina -
> 
> In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
nilo@e... 
> writes:
> 
> > I think that the word concentration may mislead people.
> > with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you 
have to
> > concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they 
are
> > together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the 
moment of
> > lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by 
conditions. In other
> > suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, 
takes the
> > lead. 
> > 
> =========================
H: They are mutually supportive, as in the spiral analogy. But 
there are 
> numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as 
predecessor to 
> insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara 
Nikaya.

A: Howard, do you see the workings of consciousness ( or namarupa, if 
you like) as a soup and analysing it being akin to doing the taste 
test eg "this is cumin", "this is ginger", "this is garlic"? If so, 
how does what I call "sequentialism" come into the picture eg "first 
you develop your concentration then something else will develop 
followed by something else again ..." Can we predict conditionality 
to that extent? The analysis is a mere intellectual exercise, is it 
not, to gain some level of understanding? To truly know how things 
are is something for direct experience which, I suspect, has no place 
for sequential dissection. Do you see any conflict/contradiction 
between "mutually supportive" and "predecessor/successor"?

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33488

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:33am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Hi TG (and Christine)

Good to see you still around.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote:
> > I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or any 
formal 
> meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional 
football without 
> working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that 
can do it, but 
> most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a 
professional level. I 
> think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation 
or "formal" meditation 
> to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the level 
necessary 
> to attain liberation.

A: TG, my old tennis coach used to say that he played his best tennis 
when he was drunk! "Working out leads to better football" is an 
untested assumption that has firmly taken hold. If it were 
scientifically tested, we may all be surprised by the results. Who 
knows? After all, every medieval European peasant knew perfectly well 
that swallows dug themselves into the soil every late autumn and 
reappeared from the soil in spring. That's what everybody said and 
what seemed to be in all the books! History is full of pervasive 
myths. (-:
With respect to the necessity for formal meditation, perhaps a myth 
has taken hold that we all have to be like the Buddha statue? That 
seems to be so if one puts any credence on the sutta Christine has 
kindly highlighted. I was introduced to Buddhism by a series of 
people who all had no doubt whatsoever that a Buddhist MUST sit in 
the lotus position and meditate just like the Buddha did.
Sorry, but I now think they were wrong in taking that blanket 
approach. 

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33489

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:43am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi Howard,
O.K. Excellent. We do not have to call Abhidhamma Abhidhamma or Abhidhamma
Pitaka. As long as we understand that there is a detailed analysis of
dhammas and their relations. And, what is more: they are not in the book.
They are here, now, in daily life, to be verified.
Nina
op 29-05-2004 16:12 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:

> I would concur with this, but only so long as "Abhidhamma" was being
> used in the generalized sense of "detailed analysis of dhammas and their
> relations," and not in the sense of Abhidhamma Pitaka, because everything that
> one 
> requires is available in the Sutta Pitaka and (for the monks) the Vinaya
> Pitaka.
	
33490

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:43am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas

Hi Rob M,
Yes now you clarified what you meant. Thanks.
Nina
op 29-05-2004 09:31 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> 
> In my recent post on Paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana, I mentioned
> the use of the terms "receiving", "investigating" and "registration"
> in Vism XVII 231.
> 
> I am not saying that Acariya Anuruddha invented these concepts; I
> guess what I am saying is that it was Acariya Anuruddha who plucked
> these concepts from relative obscurity and gave the "staring roles on
> centre stage" in the Abhidhammatthasangaha.
>
	
33491

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:43am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi Howard,
op 29-05-2004 16:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:

> Concentration is important even here. Calm supports concentration,
> and concentration supports understanding.
N: But it has to be right concentration, not wrong concentration
accompanying desire. Who knows? Only panna knows.
In vipassana there is momentary concentration, khanika samadhi. Not without
panna. Right understanding comes first. But, of course, also concentration,
sati, right thinking and the other factors are the helpers of panna.
Certainly, they support panna.
H: But there are numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as
predecessor to 
insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara Nikaya.
N: This is very complex and we would have to study each sutta. The one you
quoted could refer to someone who was skilled in jhana and then used jhana
as proximate cause for insight. I find these suttas difficult, I am inclined
to think: concentration under what heading or according to what method of
teaching. When I read: develop concentration, and that it leads to realizing
the four noble Truths I am inclined to read this with vipassana panna
implied. I can ask Sukin to bring it up in Bgk.
H: One needn't *think* of concentration. In fact, doing so would be a
distraction. One merely exerts energy in attending to something (of value),
and 
supported by a degree of calm already in place and by increasing
mindfulness, 
one-pointedness increases, which in turn supports further calm, attention,
mindfulness, and "easy energy".
N: The energy part is difficult for me to understand. There are the four
right efforts, but these can only be accomplished by panna that knows kusala
as kusala and akusala as akusala, and in insight: panna that knows them as
conditioned namas.
It is interesting you use energy, sati and concentration together. They are
the section of the eightfold Path that is samadhi. (the others being sila,
and wisdom). I read in the satipatthana sutta: atapi (ardent), sampajano
(understanding), satima (mindful), and I like this. But it is not without
understanding (sampajano). In the same way one could not develop just sati
(knowing what one is doing) without panna. Just sati is useless. Factors of
the eightfold Path are not factors *of the eightfold Path* if they are
developed in isolation, without panna (see Jon's posts). Also people outside
the sasana could do this. But the Buddha taught us the development of panna
that leads to the end of the cycle.
What does panna know at this moment, that is the question. Therefore,
listening and intellectual understanding of the objects of satipatthana are
indispensable. This in itself are conditions for the arising of the Path
factors. As you say, no need to think of concentration, and evenso, no need
to think of sati and effort.
Through the Abhidhamma we learn that they are cetasikas, dhammas that arise
because of their own conditions, but this has to sink in. One may learn
about cetasikas, but does one really understand the meaning of their being
anatta? When the Buddha says, apply energy: it is a condition not to be
neglectful. We have to persevere, even though the development of panna is
along time development.
In order to explain what I said above, I need concrete examples from the
practice just now. What does panna have to know? What are the objects just
now? There is seeing already, hearing already. Why do I have to do anything,
like increasing mindfulness or having energy? I should learn to know that
hearing is different from sound, and that they appear one at a time. For me,
that is enough. A slight feeling of uneasiness, what is it? No energy
needed, it is there already. Or a loud sound just now. But gone immediately.
Why try to increase mindfulness? It is panna that can grow.
I understand people when they say: nothing is happening when I do not apply
energy. But the following example can clarify that the growth of panna is
conditioned. When we are born with two beautiful roots; non-attachment and
non-aversion, but without panna, we can develop panna, but we shall not
attain enlightenment in that life, no matter what we do. If we are born with
three beautiful roots, thus, with panna, panna still has to be developed in
that life, but it is possible to attain enlightenment. Thus, kamma
conditions the capacities of people, from birth on. Nobody can change that.
Nina.
	
33492

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma

Rob M

--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote: > Hi All,
...
> Now imagine that an accident happens to me; a brick falls on my toe. 
> Is this my kamma? The brick is not kamma-born rupa. Whatever 
> imbalance caused the brick to fall was not caused by asynchronous 
> kamma condition (none of the conditioned factors can push a brick). I 
> suspect that the brick hitting my toe had nothing to do with kamma. 
> If this is true, how can one say that "what happens to me is due to 
> my kamma"?
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

As I understand it, the law of kamma works so that if there was not the
previous kamma ready to ripen, there would be no painful bodily feeling
expereinced in the circumstance you describe.

Past kamma exerts influence in a number of ways, but in terms of pleasant
or painful bodily experiences, only where there is appropriate kamma ready
to ripen will a specific sense-door object be experienced.

What 'caused' the brick to fall is another story ;-)).

Jon


	
33493

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:20am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Howard

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry -
> 
> In a message dated 5/28/04 10:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LBIDD@w... 
> writes:
> 
> > It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as
> amusing,
> > even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. 
> ====================
> Exactly so. But what is impermanent is a source of suffering when clung
> to.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Dhammas as a 'source of suffering' is an aspect of the first Noble Truth,
but not of dukkha as a characteristic of dhammas, I think.

As far as I can make out, the fully enlightened being would continue to
see dhammas as dukkha (and anicca and anatta), since he has fully
understood the 3 characteristics, as well as having penetrated the four
Noble Truths.

Jon


	
33494

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:42am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Victor

Given your comments in another thread about the perceived contradiction
between the Sammohavinodani and the suttas, I'm wondering if you also see
a contradiction between the statement "The five aggregates, on their own,
do not constitute suffering or stress" in the passage below and the
frequent mention in the suttas that dhammas/the five aggregates are
dukkha.

Jon

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Larry,
...
> [1]
> The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or 
> stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of 
> clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- is a 
> translation of the Pali term upadana. Upadana has a hybrid meaning 
> because it is used to cover two sides of a physical process 
> metaphorically applied to the mind: the act of clinging whereby a 
> fire takes sustenance from a piece of fuel, together with the 
> sustenance offered by the fuel. On the level of the mind, upadana 
> denotes both the act of clinging and the object clung to, which 
> together give sustenance to the process whereby mental pain arises. 
> In terms of this metaphor, pain is hot and unstable like fire, 
> whereas the mental act of clinging to the five aggregates is what 
> keeps the fire burning. These images are part of a larger complex of 
> imagery contained in the Pali discourses, likening the processes of 
> pain and its cessation to the physical processes of fire and its 
> extinguishing. An understanding of this imagery helps to give a 
> graphic, intuitive sense for the ways in which the Pali texts 
> analyze the problem of stress and pain. 
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html


	
33495

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 2:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Hello TG, Andrew, and all,

Just adding a little more from RobK:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/message/5118

I note that after posting the section of the Sutta which also 
appears at DN 33 (Walshe p. 497) in 'Five bases of deliverance', 
RobK goes on to say:
"All of these five ways of attaining enlightenment come with samadhi
and with panna (wisdom), but we might overlook the samadhi of the
first four ways because it may not be as strong as that leading to
jhana. But it is samadhi and it is supported by panna, wisdom.
It is a long sutta that is popular for monks to chant.
robertK"

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <athel60@t...> 
wrote:
> Hi TG (and Christine)
> 
> Good to see you still around.
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote:
> > > I think saying that one can attain liberation without much or 
any 
> formal 
> > meditation is akin to saying that one can play professional 
> football without 
> > working out. Maybe there might be an occasional individual that 
> can do it, but 
> > most would need to workout to be capable of playing at a 
> professional level. I 
> > think similarly, one would need consistent contemplation 
> or "formal" meditation 
> > to elevate the minds ability to comprehend the Dhamma to the 
level 
> necessary 
> > to attain liberation.
> 
> A: TG, my old tennis coach used to say that he played his best 
tennis 
> when he was drunk! "Working out leads to better football" is an 
> untested assumption that has firmly taken hold. If it were 
> scientifically tested, we may all be surprised by the results. 
Who 
> knows? After all, every medieval European peasant knew perfectly 
well 
> that swallows dug themselves into the soil every late autumn and 
> reappeared from the soil in spring. That's what everybody said 
and 
> what seemed to be in all the books! History is full of pervasive 
> myths. (-:
> With respect to the necessity for formal meditation, perhaps a 
myth 
> has taken hold that we all have to be like the Buddha statue? 
That 
> seems to be so if one puts any credence on the sutta Christine has 
> kindly highlighted. I was introduced to Buddhism by a series of 
> people who all had no doubt whatsoever that a Buddhist MUST sit in 
> the lotus position and meditate just like the Buddha did.
> Sorry, but I now think they were wrong in taking that blanket 
> approach. 
> 
> Best wishes
> Andrew
	
33496

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:17am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 016 )

Dear Jon,

Anantara paccaya works here. Anantara is a Pali word. It is made up 
of 'ana' and 'antara'. Ana means 'no' 'not' 'nil'. 'Antara' means 
interval, space, gap. Anantara means 'without interval.

If one citta passes away, another citta arises without any spacing or 
interval or any antara. This is a supporting system of anantara 
paccaya. In that, kusala agrees with kusala, and akusala agrees with 
akusala dhamma.

An example is here. When an 'ittharammana' or good object is seen or 
sensed then there will be all kusala related things.

First vithi citta will be pancadvaravajjana citta which is kiriya 
citta. Next citta will be if ittha ruparammana then kusala cakkhu 
vinnana citta. Next arises kusala sampaticchana citta. Next arises 
kusala santirana citta. All these will be kusala vipaka citta.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

----------------------------------------------------------------------


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonoabb@y...> 
wrote:
> Htoo
> 
> Thanks for some very informative posts.
> 
> I'm wondering if you could just clarify the references to 'kusala' 
and 'akusala' in the 
> following:
> 
> > If avajjana citta is 
> > akusala then pancavinnana citta is also akusala and if kusala 
then 
> > kusala.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jon
	
33497

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:18am
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Ken, and all


> Ph: > This is interesting. I'd never though of meditation being a 
> citta, a mind-moment. <snip> I don't think I've come across 
> such an idea in Nina's books, though it is probably expressed in 
> other words. >

K: > Everything that is real, in the ultimate sense, exists in one 
mind 
> moment. Right mindfulness is a cetasika, sama-sati, but the moment 
> in which it exists is a moment of Path consciousness, Magga-citta. 
> Magga-citta could be called the ultimate meditation -- meditation 
on 
> Nibbana. 

Ph: I haven't been clear on this Nibbana business. ;) 
There is an experience of Nibbana at each stage of enlightnement, 
is that right? I have heard of Nibbana as an object of citta - does 
this only occur at each stage of enlightenment. I suppose it must. 
Otherwise it wouldn't be a reality that it an object of citta.

Does Magga-citta refer to this experience of Nibbana at each stage 
of enlightenment? Does meditation on Nibbana necessarily mean 
experience of Nibbana? Now, I could go and find the answer in the 
chapter on Nibbana that I haven't read yet in ADL. But I know that 
asking here helps both those who are offered an opportunity to 
explain, and others who are reading in. 


K:>Mundane Path consciousness (mundane-magga-citta?) is a 
> lesser form of meditation -- meditation on a conditioned reality.
> 
> And then, of course, there is jhana meditation. And there are 
> other meditations that are accompanied by tranquility (passaddhi), 
> but not necessarily by panna. These are, meditations on the 
Buddha, 
> on metta, on death and on loathsomeness. In reality, they are only 
> [kusala] cittas: none of them is a formal procedure that can be 
> ritualistically carried out.

Ph: I see. Thanks. That's very nicely laid out. I won't comment any 
more on this topic because there seems to be a very hot thread on a 
similar topic underway now and enough is enough. I will read the 
other one - or will I?


> 
> KH: > >The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors 
> for enlightenment. > >
> 
> Ph: > Are you referring to the 7 factors, the bojjhanga? 
> 
> --------------
> 
> Tut tut! Have you been following all the threads on DSG or just 
the 
> ones you are involved in? :-) I shouldn't criticise: I am a man of 
> leisure (no job, no kids) and yet I still don't absorb all the 
> information on DSG.
> I, along with Victor, Rob Ep, Jon and others, have been talking 
> about the factors for enlightenment (as distinct from the factors 
> *of* enlightenment). 

Ph: There is a phenomenon in mental development - I forget the Pali 
term - which refers to contact with the right understanding of others 
that is so intensely clear it washes away all memory of the contact. 
It is a kind of "blinded by the light" phenomenon. Sure this is what 
happened with the thread you are referring to. It was so brilliant 
that I have forgotten all about reading it. ;) 

haha. 
Yes, you've got me there. I don't read all the threads - don't read 
many of them, in fact. Just no time when there is so much self-
absorbed babbling to be done! :) The fact that I didn't read that 
one despite having registered the title is that although I made my 
comments on meditation, I don't usually feel much desire to think 
hard about whether it is right practice or not. Perhaps I will 
someday. Whether meditation is right, or not right, it is so clear to 
me that it is cultivating satipatthana in daily life out in the world 
that is really interesting. It could be that meditation helps 
beginners to "warm up" to satipatthana, in the way I spoke of 
swimming the other day. Or not. 


K: > the factors for enlightenment (as distinct from the factors 
> *of* enlightenment). 
They are: association with the wise, hearing 
> the Dhamma, wise reflection on the Dhamma and practice in 
accordance 
> with the Dhamma. 

Ph: Thank you. This wise reflection on the Dhamma - I'll tell you, 
a cushion is a very nice place to do it, with a coffee first thing in 
the morning. I won't comment any more - I'll go read that thread and 
find out where/how other folks find "reflection". I can see the 
present moment in busy daily life is where we have the opportunities 
to examine realities, and this is "practice in accord with the 
Dhamma" but "reflection"....I will have to reflect on that one, and 
it requires me to sit back from the computer - I change my posture to 
reflect. Just a conditioned habit, I guess. I couldn't reflect on 
this while walking down a busy street, like the one on the cover 
of "Buddhism in Daily Life" (I love that cover) 

Can you all "reflect" on a busy street, or during a meeting, or 
when chatting with an aquaintance?

All right. Shut up now, Phil. I will read that thread that I was 
blinded by earlier. :)


> Ph: > So the concentration that rises as a citta accompanying other 
> cittas, 
> [KH: I think you meant to type, "as a cetasika accompanying other 
> cetasikas"] 

Ph: Thanks for the clarification. I wish I could say it were a 
typo! 

> universally, and the right concentration that is a path factor - 
are 
> they the same thing? I am not fretting about trying to figure this 
> out, yet, but I will continue to think about it.
> ----------------------

K: > Yes, the cetasika, concentration (samadhi, ekagatta) always 
> performs the same functions, be it in a wholesome way or an in 
> unwholesome way. 

Ph: I see. 

K: > At a moment of supramundane Path consciousness, I think it is 
fair 
> to say it has additional, kilesa-destroying, functions.

Ph: Kilesa-destroying functions! Why do we have to wait? I wanna do 
it now, like the "Kabi-killer" mold remover that I will be using 
during the rainy season, which starts tomorrow. 

Seriously - I suppose reflecting on how concentration performs the 
eradication of kilesa at supramundane moments would be futile. When 
it happens, one understand how it happens, and not before...right? 

Metta,
Phil
	
33498

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Howard (and James and Phil)

I find much to agree with in your post, including this:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I see it, every mental function that operates does so within a single
mindstate, though it may continue in subsequent ones. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and this:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
With regard to concentration, in particular, the concentration that
consists of sticking pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a
lengthy period, with little swapping out to other objects is concentration
in the conventional sense. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and this:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I take that sort of "concentration" to be a mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is
the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being our way of grasping a kind of
relation among mindstates, ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and this, but with qualification:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
... and it has as its basis the paramattha dhamma of one-pointedness which
I interpret to mean the tendency (a sankhara) for the content of a
mindstate to repeat. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

the qualification being that one-pointedness (ekaggata) is not the only
relevant factor here.

According to the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (see extract from CMA below),
there are in fact 7 mental factors (cetasikas) that have a role. They are
called 'jhaana' factors, but they apply to the pre-jhana stages as well. 
They are the factors that conduce to the same object being taken
repeatedly by consciousness.

The interesting thing is that all but one of them are, like
one-pointedness/ekaggata, mental factors that may arise with either kusala
or akusala citta. That exception is a mental factor that arises with
akusala citta only.

This I think highlights the fact that there is nothing *necessarily*
kusala about repeated attention to the same object (conventional
concentration). As we've noted before, the hallmark of samatha is not
concentration but the kusala of passadhi (tranquillity). There is such a
state as akusala jhaana.

The 7 factors of concentration and their ethical quality are:
(1) initial application (vitakka), A/B
(2) sustained application (vicaara), A/B
(3) zest (piiti); A/B
(4) one-pointedness (ekaggata); A/B 
(5) joy (somanassa); A/B
(6) displeasure (domanassa); B
(7) equanimity (upekkha); A/B
where 'A/B' = may arise with either kusala citta or akusala citta (or
kiriya citta), and 'B' = arises with akusala citta only.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In other words, James, I have been infected to some extent by the
Abhidhammic virus! ;-))
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh oh, now there's no saving you, Howard ;-))

Jon

CMA
Chapter VII - Compendium of Categories
Compendium of Mixed Categories
# 16 Jhaana Factors

The seven jhaana factors: (1) initial application, (2) sustained
application, (3) zest, (4) one-pointedness, (5) joy, (6) displeasure, (7)
equanimity.

Guide to #16 
The word 'jhaana' is not used here in the sense of meditative absorption,
but in the broader sense of close contemplation (upanijjhaayana) of an
object. Therefore the states listed here are considered jhaana factors
even when they occur outside a meditative framework. These seven
cetasikas are called jhaana factors because they enable the mind to
closely contemplate its object. Of them, displeasure is exclusively
unwholesome and occurs only in the two cittas connected with aversion. 
The other six can be wholesome, unwholesome, or indeterminate, depending
on the citta in which they occur.


--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Phil) -
...
==============================
I both agree with you and disagree with you on this one, James. ...
As I see it, every mental function that operates does so within a single
mindstate, though it may continue in subsequent ones. 

I understand a mindstate to end and a new one to begin whenever
there is any change in the make-up of experience consisting in some factor
ceasing, or another commencing, or both. ... But all operations that occur
at all are based within individual mindstates. With regard to
concentration, in particular, the concentration that consists of sticking
pretty much with the same content (arammana) for a lengthy period, with
little swapping out to other objects is concentration in the conventional
sense. I take that sort of "concentration" to be a
mind-construct/pa~n~natti (Is the singular 'pa~n~natto'?), and as being
our way of grasping a kind of relation among mindstates, and it has as its
basis the paramattha dhamma of one-pointedness which I interpret to mean
the tendency (a sankhara) for the content of a mindstate to repeat. In
other words, James, I have been infected to some extent by the Abhidhammic
virus! ;-))

With metta,
Howard


	
33499

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:27am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

Phil

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> Hi Mike, Jon and all
> 
> Fiddling around in the Useful Posts (wondering what Cetana is all 
> about) came across this exchange between Mike and Jon from July of 
> 2001 (#7214).
...<snipped to below>
> > > Bhumija Sutta
> > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html
> 
> 
> Jon : > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference 
> to 'making a wish'
> > might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet.
> > 
> > Jon
> 
> 
> Ph: A few years down the road any further insight on the meaning 
> of "wish?" 

Yes, I believe someone cleared this point up a short time later. It is
just as you say below: whatever conditions are developed, the appropriate
result will follow regardless of any wish that may be held regarding the
outcome.

> For me this is saying that it doesn't matter whether we set 
> intentions or not -"results" will arise - or not arise- in a 
> conditioned way. Which may be something to do with Cetana. I gather 
> Cetana is not intention in the conventional understanding of the word 
> but a universal cetasika that arises with every citta in a condioned 
> way. I have only begun to learn about it what it is exactly. 

Cetana is, as you say, one of the 'universal' cetasikas. It is the
'kamma' of kamma and vipaka, since deeds are essentially the manifestation
of their accompanying intention.

Intention can be used in a number of everyday senses, but in perhaps the
most commonly meant it is nothing more than a kind of thinking. In other
conventional senses (legal, philosophical, etc) it may also connote
various wholesome or unwholesome states of mind.

> And what does "obtaining results" mean exactly? Eradication of 
> defilements, I guess. Otherwise "obtaining results" sounds so 
> materialistic. 

Moments of satipatthana/insight (development of the path), perhaps? 

Thanks for the interest, Phil.

Jon

> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote: > Just thought I'd add this to
> > the thread:
> > > 
> > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with
> > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action,
> > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, &
> > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even
> > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining
> > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having
> > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results.
> > > If they follow the holy life even when both having
> > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable
> > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life
> > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made
> > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is
> > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining
> > > results. 
> > > 


	
33500

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:29am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Larry

--- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> 
> Dukkha has a cause. Does impermanence and anatta have a cause?
> 
> Larry

I don’t have anything to say that hasn't already been said by Nina and
others, but I'll say it anyway ;-))

When it is said that all conditioned dhammas are anicca/dukkha/anatta,
this describes certain characteristics (attributes) of conditioned
dhammas. Here there is no question of a cause. It is just the way
conditioned dhammas are, by nature, in fact by virtue of being
conditioned.

In the statement of the Four Noble Truths, dukkha refers to the suffering
associated with being in samsara. Dukkha in this sense does have a cause,
and that cause is tanha, because it is the craving for continued existence
that keeps us traveling in the round of births and deaths.

Of course, in an ultimate sense, the Truth of dukkha holds because dhammas
are as they are (i.e., anicca/dukkha/anatta).

The arahant who has not yet attained parinibbana has transcended certain
aspects of 'dukkha as Truth', but 'dukkha as a characteristic of
conditioned dhammas' is not susceptible to being transcended, except upon
attaining parinibbana.

Jon


	
33501

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:44am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 024 )

Dear Dhama Friends,

Citta always takes an object. 25 cittas take only kamma objects that 
is sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch and their related things. 
These cittas are 10 dvipancavinana cittas, 3 manodhatus that is 
pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas 
and 3 santirana cittas.

These cittas never take other objects apart from kama object. They do 
have their limitations. For example 10 dvipancavinnana cittas always 
deal with 5 senses and they never take other object. 
Pancadvaravajjana citta just checks 5 sense door and it is just 
related to 5 senses. Sampaticchana also does the same and so does 
santirana.

8 mahavipaka cittas are bhavanaga cittas of kama sattas and they 
always just related to kama arammana. So all these 25 cittas are 
related to kama arammana.

12 akusala cittas and 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala cittas and 4 nana 
vippayutta mahakiriya cittas altogether 20 cittas can take any object 
with the exception of lokuttara dhamma that is 9 dhammas namely, 
sotapatti magga citta, satopatti phala citta, sakadagami magga citta, 
sakadagami phala citta, anagami magga citta, anagami phala citta, 
arahatta magga citta, arahatta phala citta and nibbana.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33502

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 2

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 2

The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Manorathapúraní², explains that
arahatship can be attained immediately after seeing, no matter whether a
desirable or undesirable object is seen. It explains that when a monk has
seen visible object through the eyes, he begins to apply insight and that
the attainment of arahatship can be said to arise consecutively after
seeing. It states that it is the same in the case of hearing.
Acharn Sujin said: ³People think that they cannot gain understanding of the
reality appearing at this moment². Realities appear one at a time through
one of the six doorways. If we believe that we can see and hear at the same
time we shall not know that seeing and hearing are impermanent, dukkha and
anattå. The characteristic of impermanence refers to the reality that
appears now. She said: ³We may read the Tipitaka without any understanding
of realities. We may read that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha, but we
should know that these words represent reality.²
We may think about the impermanence of mind and body, but that is not
insight that realizes the impermanence of citta that arises and falls away
each moment, nor is it the resolution of the compact of the body into
elements that are arising and falling away. Paramattha dhammas, citta,
cetasika and rúpa, have the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and
anattå and these can be directly known through the development of insight.
This sutta reminds us to develop right understanding of seeing and hearing
at this very moment. Seeing sees a desirable object or an undesirable object
depending on the kamma that produces seeing. Seeing is vipåkacitta, the
result of kamma. It does not matter whether visible object is desirable or
undesirable, seeing falls away immediately. Seeing just sees and it does not
know whether visible object is desirable or undesirable. It is of no use to
find out whether the object is desirable or undesirable.
We can learn that seeing is only a type of nåma and that it experiences
visible object which is rúpa. When we understand that seeing is only a type
of nåma, we begin to know the meaning of non-self. Seeing arises because
kamma produces it, we cannot cause its arising or be the owner of it. It is
only nåma, not ³my seeing². Seeing sees only visible object, not a person or
a thing. Sati can be aware only of one nåma or rúpa at a time, but so long
as we do not distinguish nåma from rúpa we are bound to take all realities
for self. 
***
Nina.
	
33503

From: m. nease <mlnease@z...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 8:20am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

Hi Jon and Phil,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonothan Abbott" <jonoabb@y...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was
kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and
ex-Christian aunts!

> > And what does "obtaining results" mean exactly? Eradication of
> > defilements, I guess. Otherwise "obtaining results" sounds so
> > materialistic.
>
> Moments of satipatthana/insight (development of the path), perhaps?

I came to the tentative conclusion some time ago that 'obtaining results'
refers sometimes to nibbaana and sometimes to favorable rebirths, depending
on the context. Not sure where I got this--wonder if the commentaries have
anything to say.

mike

> > > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with
> > > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action,
> > > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, &
> > > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even
> > > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining
> > > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having
> > > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results.
> > > > If they follow the holy life even when both having
> > > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable
> > > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life
> > > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made
> > > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is
> > > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining
> > > > results.
	
33504

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:34am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, James -

In a message dated 5/30/04 3:09:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
buddhatrue@y... writes:

> 
> Thank you for your new explanation. I guess this depends on what 
> you consider the nature of cittas to be. Personally, I do believe 
> in cittas but I don't believe that they last only one billionth of a 
> second, as has been proposed in this group previously, and I don't 
> think that they all last the same duration.
> 
-------------------------------------------
Howard:
Well, I just don't know. But this may well be tangential to this 
specific issue - that is, the durations and their variation may not be important.
-------------------------------------------

Regarding the object of > 
> each citta, I believe that that is determined by the arising of each 
> particular rupa and not any `inclination' or personal choice...but 
> each citta will have an influence on each subsequent citta.
-------------------------------------------
Howard:
Well, whether rupas, when the object is a rupa rather than a nama, are 
independent of experience or not, and whether one can validly make the 
distinction between a potential experience and an actual one, I think that what 
content comes to mind - that is, what is *noticed* - is affected by mental state. 
Even if one takes the view - which I do not - that there is an objective flow 
of arising and ceasing rupas that are actualities *independent of experience*, 
not all of them are taken as objects of consciousness - there is a selection 
in what is observed, and I'm taking 'one-pointedness' to be the tendency for 
"the same" object of consciousness to be repeatedly observed. (The term 
'tendency' or 'inclination' is probably not a great pick, because I don't mean to 
imply by it a conscious choice, though it may be affected by such, but more 
something like a mental force or impulsion that provides a stabilization of 
attention.)
-----------------------------------------------

Really, > 
> I think we are starting to get into an area of theory that is 
> outside what the Buddha taught. In other words, your guess is as 
> good as mine! ;-)) 
> 
> 
=======================
I agree that we are theorizing here. Still, it doesn't hurt to do so 
if it clarifies one's understanding and provided one doesn't hold fast to a 
particular pet theory.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33505

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Andrew -

In a message dated 5/30/04 3:16:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
athel60@t... writes:

> the Internet 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Nina and Howard
> 
> Enjoying your discussion but would like to interrupt it with a riddle.
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> >Hi, Nina -
> >
> >In a message dated 5/29/04 2:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> nilo@e... 
> >writes:
> >
> >>I think that the word concentration may mislead people.
> >>with regard to vipassana: to me it seems very strange that you 
> have to
> >>concentrate first and then wisdom will arise. As I see it, they 
> are
> >>together, and concentration grows as wisdom grows, and at the 
> moment of
> >>lokuttara citta, samadhi has the strength of jhana, by 
> conditions. In other
> >>suttas we read: right understanding comes first, in other words, 
> takes the
> >>lead. 
> >>
> >=========================
> H: They are mutually supportive, as in the spiral analogy. But 
> there are 
> >numerous suttas that emphasize the role of concentration as 
> predecessor to 
> >insight, including the ones I recently quoted from the Anguttara 
> Nikaya.
> 
> A: Howard, do you see the workings of consciousness ( or namarupa, if 
> you like) as a soup and analysing it being akin to doing the taste 
> test eg "this is cumin", "this is ginger", "this is garlic"? If so, 
> how does what I call "sequentialism" come into the picture eg "first 
> you develop your concentration then something else will develop 
> followed by something else again ..." Can we predict conditionality 
> to that extent? The analysis is a mere intellectual exercise, is it 
> not, to gain some level of understanding? To truly know how things 
> are is something for direct experience which, I suspect, has no place 
> for sequential dissection. Do you see any conflict/contradiction 
> between "mutually supportive" and "predecessor/successor"?
> 
-------------------------------------------
Howard:
No, I don't. Because I see the occurrence of factor A being condition 
for the arising of a subsequent factor B, and the occurrence of B serving as 
condition for a repeated subsequent (strengthened) occurrence of A yet again. I 
also don't rule out simultaneity of occurrence and support. But as regards 
the relations among cetasikas, I must confess to having inadequate mental 
development in terms of mindfulness, concentration, and clarity to directly see more 
than just a finger-pinch of the details, and so I must depend on the 
teachings and my contemplation of them to establish a provisional view on these 
matters. 
--------------------------------------------

> 
> Best wishes
> Andrew
=======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33506

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:56am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/30/04 4:21:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jonoabb@y... writes:

> Howard
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Larry -
> >
> >In a message dated 5/28/04 10:04:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >LBIDD@w... 
> >writes:
> >
> >>It occurred to me today that impermanence could also be seen as
> >amusing,
> >>even laughable, not a source of suffering at all. 
> >====================
> >Exactly so. But what is impermanent is a source of suffering when clung
> >to.
> >
> >With metta,
> >Howard
> 
> Dhammas as a 'source of suffering' is an aspect of the first Noble Truth,
> but not of dukkha as a characteristic of dhammas, I think.
> 
> As far as I can make out, the fully enlightened being would continue to
> see dhammas as dukkha (and anicca and anatta), since he has fully
> understood the 3 characteristics, as well as having penetrated the four
> Noble Truths.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
=========================
I see dukkha of dhammas as a relational matter - specifically their 
being unsatisfactory, or, better, unsatisfying. They are dukkha in that 1) they 
are not a source of true satisfaction, and 2) clinging to them is a source of 
distress. Thus, all conditioned dhammas fail to satisfy and they also are 
conditions (but not sufficient conditions) for the arising of distress.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33507

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Jon,

Indeed. It seems to me that you see the problem now.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> Given your comments in another thread about the perceived 
contradiction
> between the Sammohavinodani and the suttas, I'm wondering if you 
also see
> a contradiction between the statement "The five aggregates, on 
their own,
> do not constitute suffering or stress" in the passage below and the
> frequent mention in the suttas that dhammas/the five aggregates are
> dukkha.
> 
> Jon
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Larry,
> ...
> > [1]
> > The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or 
> > stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of 
> > clinging/sustenance. This hybrid word -- clinging/sustenance -- 
is a 
> > translation of the Pali term upadana. 
[snip]
> > 
> > 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/3h2.html
	
33508

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:42am
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Jon,

And you would need to know when to infer and what a correct inference 
is. A right inference will bring out the meaning clearly. An 
entangling and convoluting spin is, after all, entangling and 
convoluting.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> I agree that the Madhupindika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 18) is an 
example of
> a sutta whose meaning needs to be inferred. However, my question 
was
> really directed to how one is to recognise the not-so-obvious cases 
(i'm
> not sure if your answer addresses this).
> 
> As I mentioned in my earlier post, there are many terms used in the 
suttas
> that can only be understood by reference to other suttas or, in some
> cases, to sources outside the sutta pitaka altogether. Consider the
> following terms from other threads under discussion at the moment:
> 
> 1. In the Anapanasati Sutta there are numerous references 
to 'mindfulness
> of in-&-out breathing', obviously a key term for understanding this 
sutta.
> I know of no explanation of the meaning of this term within any 
sutta --
> if you do, I'd be interested to know the passage.
> 
> 2. In some suttas the Four Noble Truths are given as a bare 
statement
> without any explanation, for example, <<'This is 
suffering,' ... 'This is
> the origin of suffering,' ... 'This is the cessation of 
suffering,' ...
> 'This is the road leading to the cessation of suffering,'>> (see
> Satipatthana Sutta, The Way of Mindfulness translation, below for 
an
> example). In such cases the meaning needs to be inferred from 
other parts
> of the Tipitaka, since the statement as it stands does not convey 
the
> detail about birth etc as suffering (in the first Noble Truth) or 
the
> Noble Eightfold Path as the way leading to the cessation of 
suffering (in
> the fourth Noble Truth).
> 
> 3. In many suttas where 'atta'/'anatta' is mentioned, there is no
> explanation of the meaning of that expression. One needs to go to 
other
> parts of the tipitaka (such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta) for an
> explanation.
> 
> It seems to me that where there is no sufficient description of a 
term
> within the sutta itself, the sutta is to that extent one 'whose 
meaning
> needs to be inferred'.
> 
> Jon
	
33509

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:50am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept)

Hi Jon,

I think I will just leave the view that you came up with to yourself.

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> As I have previously mentioned, the terms kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-
sankhaara
> and citta-sankhaara are used in 2 different contexts, and have 
different
> meanings in each.
> 
> The first sutta you mention below (SN 12:2) deals with sankhaara in 
the
> context of dependent origination, where it is explained in terms of
> bodily-, verbal- and mental-volitional formations. The explanation 
given
> in the commentaries for these 3 terms is as follows (from Collected
> Discourses of the Buddha, n. 7 at p. 727):
> kaaya-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of bodily volition (kayasancetana) 
that
> motivate activity in the body door
> vacii-sankhaara -- twenty kinds of verbal volition 
(vaciisancetana) that
> motivate verbal utterances
> citta-sankhaara -- twenty-nine mundane wholesome and unwholesome 
mental
> volitions (manosancetana) that occur privately in thought without
> motivating action in the doors of body and speech.
> 
> The second sutta you mention (MN 44) deals with cessation of 
perception
> and feeling. As you have pointed out, the description of each 
term given
> in the suttas is as follows:
> kaaya-sankhaara -- in-&-out breathing
> vacii-sankhaara -- thought and examination (vitakka and vicara)
> citta-sankhaara -- perception and feeling (sanna and vedana)
> 
> In that context, the 3 terms apparently refer to the different 
kinds of
> activity that cease and as the cessation of perception and feeling 
is
> entered into, and that later resume as the cessation of perception 
and
> feeling is left.
> 
> In a note to SN 12:2 referred to above, the translator says that 
sankhaara
> in the context of dependent origination should be distinguished from
> sankhaara in the context of cessation of perception and feeling 
(note 7 at
> pp 727, 728 of CDB):
> "This triad of sankhara should not be confused with the triad 
discussed at
> 41:6... The latter triad is always introduced in relation to the 
cessation
> of perception and feeling and is never brought into connection with
> dependent origination."
> 
> In the context of dependent origination, kaaya-sankhaara refers to
> specific dhammas that are anicca/dukkha/anatta, while in the 
context of
> cessation of perception and feeling kaaya-sankhaara refers to in-&-
out
> breathing. In-&-out breathing is not a specific dhamma but is, like
> 'person' and 'body', a term used to denote a particular group or 
groups of
> dhammas as generally perceived.
> 
> See my answers to your specific questions below.
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon, Mike, and all,
> > 
> > Let me quote the following:
> > 
> > <quote>
> > "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily 
> > fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are 
> > called fabrications."
> > <quote>
> > Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html
> > 
> > <quote>
> > "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" 
> > 
> > "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, 
> > verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." 
> > </quote>
> > Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html
> > 
> > And in Cula-vedalla Sutta, it is stated that in-&-out breaths are 
> > bodily fabrications.
> > 
> > Jon, are fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self?
> 
> Yes, it is said by the Buddha that all sankhara's are anicca, 
dukkha and
> anatta.
> 
> > Are bodily fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self?
> 
> In the context of dependent origination, yes; in the context of 
cessation,
> 'kaaya-sankhara' does not fall within the ambit of the Buddha's 
atatement
> that 'All sankhara are annica, dukkha and anatta'
> 
> > Are in-&-out breaths inconstant, dukkha, not self?
> 
> Same answer as for the second part of my answer to the previous 
question
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
	
33510

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:56am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept))

Hi Jon,

I think I have said enough on this thread.

Metta,
Victor


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott 
<jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > In-&-out breathings, fabrications, fabricated, are inconstant, 
> > dukkha, not self.
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Victor
> 
> As far as I know, there's no direct statement to this effect in the 
texts.
> 
> What is found in the texts are the statements that (1) all 
conditioned
> dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, and (2) kaaya-
sankhaara is
> in-&-out breathing. As I have previously explained, however, we 
cannot
> conclude from this that in-&-out breathing is anicca/dukkha/anatta, 
since
> the different uses of 'sankhara' cannot be substituted for each 
other in a
> straightforward manner.
> 
> If you have a copy of the 'Collected Discourses of the Buddha', 
Bhikkhu
> Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, you may like to look at 
his
> comments on 'Sankhara' in the General Introduction (pages 44 to 
47), where
> he discusses the 'five major doctrinal contexts' in which the term 
occurs
> in the Samyutta Nikaya.
> 
> For example, in the context of dependent origination, sankhara is
> synonymous with 'kamma' (i.e., cetana cetasika), and kaaya-
sankhaara means
> kamma performed through the body door.
> 
> The sutta at 41:6 deals with cessation of perception and feeling. 
In note
> 298 (p 1442) the translator says:
> "The three terms -- kaaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-
sankhaara
> -- are in Pali identical with those that make up the sankhara 
factor of
> dependent origination..., but in this context the purport is 
different ...
> .Here, in the compounds kaaya-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara, 
sankhara
> clearly has a passive sense: what is formed or generated
> ('sankhariiyati') in dependence on the body or the mind."
> 
> This sense of 'being formed in dependence of the body' is of course 
quite
> different from the cetana accompanying actions through the body 
door (in
> the dependent origination context).
> 
> However the crucial difference, as regards the statement that all
> conditioned dhammas (sankhara) are anicca/dukkha/anatta, is that 
there is
> no dhamma called in-&-out breathing.
> 
> Jon
	
33511

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:18pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Larry,

Reply in context.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <LBIDD@w...> wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thanks for this explanation of upadana. 

You are welcome.


It seems clear that the 
> upadana link in dependent arising is precisely where self-view 
> arises; 


Regarding self-view, please check the reference at the end of the 
message.


although we could say it is implicit throughout much of the 
> dependent arising. The four dimensions of clinging (sense objects, 
> views, rites and rituals, and self views) seem like a more pointed 
> way of classifying the khandhas and concepts as objects of 
clinging. 

Concepts are mental fabrications. Another way to see it:

Sensuality, views, rites and rituals, and doctrines of self are 
fabrications. These fabrications are the sustenance for further 
becoming.


> Any ideas on how these four "focus" or orient objects of 
> consciousness? 


What is the point of this question?


Why not just say clinging clings to everything except 
> nibbana? 


.....


Translating upadana as "clinging/sustenance" brings out the 
> sense of upadana as cause of dukkha (fuel for the fire). Also it 
> seems clear that clinging and dukkha are "bound" together. I wonder 
> by what conditions?


.....


> 
> I don't have anything to add on amusement as a possible response to 
> impermanence. It is a matter of the state of mind that apprehends 
> impermanence. Analyzing a sense of humor in terms of cittas and 
> cetasikas is way beyond my abilities. Care to try it?


No.


> 
> Larry 
> 

Metta,
Victor

[1]
Samyutta Nikaya XLI.3
Isidatta Sutta
About Isidatta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn41-003.html

"But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?" 

"There is the case, householder, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-
mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed 
or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of 
integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- 
assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing 
form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He assumes 
feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling 
as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to 
be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as 
in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes (mental) 
fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, 
or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He 
assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing 
consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in 
consciousness. This is how self-identity view comes into being." 

"And, venerable sir, how does self-identity view not come into 
being?" 

"There is the case, householder, where a well-instructed disciple of 
the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & 
disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is 
well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- does not assume form to 
be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, 
or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... 
He does not assume perception to be the self... He does not assume 
fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be 
the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness 
as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-
identity view does not come into being."
	
33512

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: nibbana

op 30-05-2004 15:18 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> Does Magga-citta refer to this experience of Nibbana at each stage
> of enlightenment?
N: Yes, there is magga-citta at the stage of the sotapanna, the sakadagami,
the anagami and the arahat. Defielements are successively eradicated at
those moments, the latent tendencies.
Ph: Does meditation on Nibbana necessarily mean
> experience of Nibbana?
N: No. You may not have the Visuddhimagga, Path of Purification, by
Buddhaghosa. It is under VIII, 245, Recollection of Peace. It can only lead
to access concentration, not to jhana because of its profundity. Only an
ariyan has success with this subject (because he has experienced it), but
also a worldling can recollect it. <For even by hearsay the mind has
confidence in peace.>
Philip, this reminds me of something. The Visuddhimagga desribes very well
the Brahmaviharas. Did you learn about the far and near ennemies of each one
of them? This is very important, but you may have learnt this in your group.
I just listened to a Thai tape on the subject, it is very good and I thought
of you. 
Nina
	
33513

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Dear Christine, 
Yes I thought so when reading about joy and piti. And there is a degree of
calm when listening and considering, is there not? But not all the time,
cittas can also wander about. This sutta may also help to understand: who is
concentrated (samadhi) understands things as they really are. There are so
many degrees of samadhi. Thank you for this sutta quote, I appreciate it.
How wonderful that monks chant it.
Nina. 
op 30-05-2004 11:19 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...:

> RobK goes on to say:
> "All of these five ways of attaining enlightenment come with samadhi
> and with panna (wisdom), but we might overlook the samadhi of the
> first four ways because it may not be as strong as that leading to
> jhana. But it is samadhi and it is supported by panna, wisdom.
> It is a long sutta that is popular for monks to chant.
> robertK"
	
33514

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 1:35pm
Subject: Re: Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Hi Chritine and all,

Couple comments:

1. There is no need to disregard or defend "formal meditation." It 
is a strawman.

2. To realize the cessation of dukkha, developing tranquility and 
insight, as well as right concentration, is necessary. There is no 
way around that.

3. There is nothing wrong with developing tranquility and insight 
while sitting down folding his legs crosswise, holding one's body 
erect. This is a posture that one might assume. Why? Because it is 
conducive in calming the bodily fabrications.

Metta,
Victor

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 
<cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> For those, like me, who have been wondering at the modern day
> disageements over the place of formal meditation within Buddhism,
> this may provide some further food for thought:
> 
> The Anguttara Nikaya 5.3.26 gives the five occasions when Liberation
> is attained:
> 
> "Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which
> spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not
> released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted
> or
> the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What
> five?"
> 
> 1.LISTENING TO THE DHAMMA
> "Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent
> co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he 
gradually
> understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When
> understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight
> arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
> body
> appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of
> one
> who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
> the
> first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells
> diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
> unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
> not yet attained is attained".
> 
> 2. TEACHING THE DHAMMA
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
> the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in
> detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the
> meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the
> delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. 
The
> appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who
> experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the
> second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu 
dwells
> diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
> unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
> not yet attained is attained."
> 
> 3. REPEATING THE DHAMMA
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
> the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered
> 
> Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and 
mastered
> and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight
> arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the
> body
> appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of 
one
> who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is
> the
> third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells
> diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the
> unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness
> not yet attained is attained."
> 
> 4. REFLECTING ON THE DHAMMA
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
> the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
> nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
> mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching
> that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and
> delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful 
mind
> the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The
> mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point.
> Bhikkhus,
> this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the
> bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
> released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
> of
> unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."
> 
> 5. SOME CONCENTRATION SIGN (SAMADHI NIMITTA) IS RIGHTLY REFLECTED
> UPON AND UNDERSTOOD.
> "Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in
> the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the
> Teaching that he had heard and mastered,
> nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and
> mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the 
Teaching
> that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point.
> Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is
> penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted
> joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased
> body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences
> pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the
> releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to 
dispel,
> either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires
> get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is
> attained.
> 
> Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the
> bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is
> released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end
> of
> unpleasantness not yet attained is attained."
> http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
> Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/003-pancangikavaggo-e.htm
> OR TRY,
> http://tinyurl.com/2dwt7
> 
> And - of these five occasions, it is vital to note that ONLY THE
> LAST ONE possibly refers to formal meditation. This indicates that
> Understanding the Dhamma is of paramount importance for liberation.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> metta and peace,
> Christine
> ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33515

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 2:35pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Jon: "The arahant who has not yet attained parinibbana has 
transcended certain aspects of 'dukkha as Truth', but 'dukkha as a 
characteristic of conditioned dhammas' is not susceptible to being 
transcended, except upon attaining parinibbana."

Hi Jon,

I agree. I wonder if we could say dukkha as truth means "painful" 
because of being bound-up with desire, and dukkha as characteristic 
means "undesirable" because of being linked with impermanence. 
Perhaps we could say dukkha as truth is a reality with a cause, while 
dukkha as characteristic is a "characteristic" concept without a 
cause as such. I think you are also right to suggest the goal is to 
transcend both dukkhas. Do you know of any commentary or scripture 
that supports two readings of dukkha?

Larry
	

33516

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 2:44pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Victor,

The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, 
and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging 
to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality 
belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is 
sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this 
difference?

Larry
	

 	 

	
33517

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:14am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Hi, Victor -

I think the following is very well put.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 5/30/04 4:46:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yu_zhonghao@y... writes:

> Hi Chritine and all,
> 
> Couple comments:
> 
> 1. There is no need to disregard or defend "formal meditation." It 
> is a strawman.
> 
> 2. To realize the cessation of dukkha, developing tranquility and 
> insight, as well as right concentration, is necessary. There is no 
> way around that.
> 
> 3. There is nothing wrong with developing tranquility and insight 
> while sitting down folding his legs crosswise, holding one's body 
> erect. This is a posture that one might assume. Why? Because it is 
> conducive in calming the bodily fabrications.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33518

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:08pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi Howard

Thanks for your clarifying comments, but ...

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
[snip] I see the occurrence of factor A being condition 
> for the arising of a subsequent factor B, and the occurrence of B 
serving as 
> condition for a repeated subsequent (strengthened) occurrence of A 
yet again. I 
> also don't rule out simultaneity of occurrence and support. But as 
regards 
> the relations among cetasikas, I must confess to having inadequate 
mental 
> development in terms of mindfulness, concentration, and clarity to 
directly see more 
> than just a finger-pinch of the details, and so I must depend on 
the 
> teachings and my contemplation of them to establish a provisional 
view on these 
> matters. 

Andrew: If "right understanding comes first" is a correct description 
indicating that, in terms of the Path, a moment without right 
understanding is useless/irrelevant, then surely trying to arrange 
other factors like right concentration etc is like re-arranging the 
deck chairs on the Titanic? (-:

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33519

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi, Larry (and Victor) -

In a message dated 5/30/04 6:34:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> Hi Victor,
> 
> The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, 
> and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging 
> to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality 
> belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is 
> sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this 
> difference?
> 
> Larry
> 
=======================
I think that the categorizings of tanha and upadana that you gave, and 
are, indeed, standard, are formulations that emphasize important aspects of 
the defilements that hold us in thrall, but which are not fully general. 
Upadana generally is clinging to desired phenomena or to the absence of undesired 
phenomena, and it is an outgrowth of craving for the presence or the absence of 
these phenomena or of feelings associated with them. (One doesn't typically 
crave a view or crave rites and rituals, but one *does* crave the pleasant 
feelings they produce.) 
When something is desired and then obtained, or imagined to be 
obtained, one clings to that phenomenon. As I see it, when reality then forces one to 
lose his/her grip on the desired phenomenon, craving often increases even 
more, and a viscious cycle ensues involving emotional proliferation. Of course it 
is also frequently the case that when a desired phenomenon is "attained", it 
loses its allure, and then the desire for it is replaced by aversion - actual 
dislike or perhaps boredom - and by the desire for a substitute, or some time 
may go by, one comes to forget that the object of desire was not really 
worthy, and desire for it arises yet again. Up and down, and back and forth we are 
thrown on the waves of desire and clinging, carried along on the ocean of 
samsara.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33520

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 0:37pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Andrew -

In a message dated 5/30/04 7:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
athel60@t... writes:

> Andrew: If "right understanding comes first" is a correct description 
> indicating that, in terms of the Path, a moment without right 
> understanding is useless/irrelevant, then surely trying to arrange 
> other factors like right concentration etc is like re-arranging the 
> deck chairs on the Titanic? (-:
> 
=====================
Well. I don't see that there is much of anything of ultimate import 
that we can *directly* arrange or control. But I do believe that we can set in 
motion series of events that are salutory.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33521

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 5:34pm
Subject: Vism.XIV 80

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV

80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'.
Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the
mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage,
'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base,
the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness
of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of
matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are
consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth
[that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as
allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions
that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their
function. 

This, firstly, is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with
the materiality aggregate.
	
33522

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 5:52pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

Hi Jon, and all

Thanks for the feedback, and confirmation re that "wish." 

May I ask some more questions about cetana voltion/intention?

Jon: > Cetana is, as you say, one of the 'universal' cetasikas. 
It is the
> 'kamma' of kamma and vipaka, since deeds are essentially the 
manifestation
> of their accompanying intention.
> 
> Intention can be used in a number of everyday senses, but in 
perhaps the
> most commonly meant it is nothing more than a kind of thinking. In 
other
> conventional senses (legal, philosophical, etc) it may also connote
> various wholesome or unwholesome states of mind.

Now, I've done so much reading in various religions 
before "settling" on the Buddha's teaching, that I can't remember if 
I read this in a book by a Christian mystic (Meister Eckhardt?) or in 
new -agey stuff like Seat of the Soul or whether it was the Buddha's 
teaching, but is there anything about the value of intentions in 
themselves, irregardless of whether the intention is carried through? 
I guess this would be intention in the more conventional sense rather 
than the universal cetasika sense, because I am talking about 
intentions that arise and stand out in a very clear way. Certainly a 
kind of thinking.

For example, when I told Nina that I intended to send a donation to 
the Dhamma Foundation to thank her for her books, but didn't, was the 
intention itself kusala even though it wasn't followed through? That 
is just one example. (Don't worry, Nina, I'm not fretting about it at 
all.) Another example. THe other day I was walking in the park and 
suddenly intended *not* to drink any alcohol when I fly to Canada 
this summer. (I have stopped drinking alcohol completely here, but 
there is such a tradition of enjoying a few cocktails on the rare 
occasions I fly across the ocean, and in the airport bar.) So I 
intended not to, to stay in the moment and examine present realities 
rather than soaking in sweet addled fancies as I gazed at the clouds 
and flipped from the clasical station to the jazz station to the 
Japanese Pop station on my headset. Ah...bliss. Oops. I just intended 
to drink! damn! ;) 
Was the intention I felt quite clearly the other day, an intention 
that just kind of arose, of a kusala nature in itself? If "deeds are 
essentially the manifestation of their accompanying intention", but 
the deed is some months down the road, can it be said there was 
wholesome khamma with the intention? I'm not wanting to use this as a 
way of having wholesome khamma by intending things intentionally - 
but if an seemingly wholesome intention arises on its own, clearly, 
explicitly, in an unexpected way...can I understand it as kusala?

Thanks in advance for your feedback, Jon. I know how busy you are. 
If anyone else has can help me with this, please jump in. 

Metta,
Phil
	
33523

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 5:59pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi Howard,

I agree that craving is wanting what is imaginatively lacking and
clinging is holding on to an imaginary source of security, but I wonder
why the objects of the two are different. Any ideas?

Also, how does this relate to 'upadana khandha'? And how does one dispel
craving for existence and non-existence? [if you say the 8-fold path
please explain]

Larry
---------------------------
In a message dated 5/30/04 6:34:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
LBIDD@w... writes: 
Hi Victor, 
The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence,
and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging to
views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality
belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is sense
pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this
difference? 
Larry 
======================= 
              I think that the categorizings
of tanha and upadana that you gave, and are, indeed, standard, are
formulations that emphasize important aspects of the defilements that
hold us in thrall, but which are not fully general. Upadana generally is
clinging to desired phenomena or to the absence of undesired phenomena,
and it is an outgrowth of craving for the presence or the absence of
these phenomena or of feelings associated with them. (One doesn't
typically crave a view or crave rites and rituals, but one *does* crave
the pleasant feelings they produce.) 
              When something is desired and
then obtained, or imagined to be obtained, one clings to that
phenomenon. As I see it, when reality then forces one to lose his/her
grip on the desired phenomenon, craving often increases even more, and a
vicious cycle ensues involving emotional proliferation. Of course it is
also frequently the case that when a desired phenomenon is "attained",
it loses its allure, and then the desire for it is replaced by aversion
- actual dislike or perhaps boredom - and by the desire for a
substitute, or some time may go by, one comes to forget that the object
of desire was not really worthy, and desire for it arises yet again. Up
and down, and back and forth we are thrown on the waves of desire and
clinging, carried along on the ocean of samsara. 
With metta,
Howard
	
33524

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Heart thing

Hi All,

My lurker friend replied off-list and seemed satisfied with my 
response below. He then asked "Now, why do cittas have to have 
physical support? Can't they just arise on the base of conditions 
without any rupa arround?"

My answer is:

In the immaterial planes of existence (arupa-loka), there is no 
physical base of support for the cittas. It would therefore seem that 
the need for a physical base is a characteristic of the plane of 
existence rather than a characterisitic of cittas themselves. 

Arupavacara cittas (formless jhana mental states; very high 
meditative states) can arise in both the arupa-loka and in the kama-
loka (sensous world where humans reside). When these mental states 
arise in arupa-loka, they do not require a physical base but when the 
same mental states arise in kama-loka, they require a physical base.

Metta,
Rob M :-)


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> A lurker sent me the following message off-list. I am choosing to 
> reply here.
> 
> =====
> 
> Hi Rob :)
> 
> in few places, seems like all of them in thai forest tradition
> there is something about heart.
> 
> "The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas"
> by Phra Bhuridatto (Mun)Wat Srapathum [Bangkok]
> states:
> [...]
> "What runs?"
> "What runs quickly is viññana,
> movements walking in a row,
> one after another. Not doubting that saññas are right,
> the heart gets caught up in the running back & forth.
> Saññas grab hold of things outside
> and pull them in to fool the mind,
> Making it think in confusion & go out searching,
> wandering astray.
> They fool it with various dhammas,
> like a mirage."
> "What gains total release from the five khandhas?"
> "The heart, of course, & the heart alone.
> It doesn't grasp or get entangled.
> No more poison of possessiveness,
>     no more delusion,
>     it stands alone.
> No saññas can fool it into following along
> behind them."
> 
> [...]
> 
> and now, in your EXCELENT text, 
> 
> [...]At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 
vipaka 
> citta
> s conditions rupa through:
> - Conascence condition.
> - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa).[...]
> 
> would you please tell me what this heart thing is?
> 
> =====
> 
> My reply is as follows:
> 
> You wrote, "seems like all of them in thai forest tradition". I 
> disagree. "Heart" is a very important concept in many Mahayana 
> traditions (Prajnaparamita Heart Sutta is highly revered).
> 
> It would appear that in the first case, the author is using the 
> term "heart" in a contemporary fashion to mean "mind", especially 
the 
> emotional aspect of "mind". For example, in conventional speech, 
what 
> do you mean when you say, "to follow my heart", "in my heart, I 
> feel...", "I love you with all my heart"? In all cases, it is the 
> emotional aspect of mind.
> 
> In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" 
(hadayavatthu). 
> Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive 
Manual 
> of Abhidhamma (p 144):
> According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the 
physical 
> support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense 
> consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their 
> bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly 
> mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, 
> simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind 
element 
> and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, 
> subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity 
> situated within the physical heart. 
> 
> <end quote>
> 
> The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111-
> 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered 
> in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that 
> sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient 
> Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood 
> makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was 
> centred in the heart.
> 
> The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common 
> understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that 
matter 
> in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
> element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the 
author 
> of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but 
> did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from 
the 
> point of the Abhidhamma. 
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33525

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: nibbana

Hi Nina, and all

> 
> > Does Magga-citta refer to this experience of Nibbana at each stage
> > of enlightenment?
> N: Yes, there is magga-citta at the stage of the sotapanna, the 
sakadagami,
> the anagami and the arahat. Defielements are successively 
eradicated at
> those moments, the latent tendencies.

Ph: I see. I tend to never think about the stages of enlightenment, 
because I assume I am so far away. Would you encourage me to think 
more about what is involved at each stage? I guess one thing I should 
be remembering is that the sotapanna has seen the last of wrong view 
of self. That is something I can and already am taking steps my first 
steps towards. 


> Ph: Does meditation on Nibbana necessarily mean
> > experience of Nibbana?
> N: No. You may not have the Visuddhimagga, Path of Purification, by
> Buddhaghosa. 

Ph: I don't, and it is so central to discussion here that I can be 
sure it is an essential text. Is there a particular edition that is 
recommended? I want to buy the anthology of MN by Bhikkhu Bodhi but 
am thinking these days that I will throughly study the AN that I have 
printed out first. Perhaps it will be the Visuddhimagga that I 
purchase instead. 


N:> Philip, this reminds me of something. The Visuddhimagga desribes 
very well
> the Brahmaviharas. Did you learn about the far and near ennemies of 
each one
> of them? This is very important, but you may have learnt this in 
your group.
> I just listened to a Thai tape on the subject, it is very good and 
I thought
> of you. 

Ph: Thank you for thinking of me. Yes, the far and near enemies 
have been discussed at my Brahma-Viharas group, and I think Rob M 
shared some thoughts on them a while back when I was asking about 
Mudita. Your encouragement will send me back to confirm my 
understanding of these near and far enemies.

Metta,
Phil
	
33526

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:38pm
Subject: Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi all

Nina encouraged me to look into the near and far enemies of the 
Brahma-Viharas, so I will share what I learned about them through the 
good graces of Google. (sorry, no reference available for author.) 

A near enemy is a "state which resembles the true abiding but 
misses if by being tinged with the defilements." A far enemy is "Its 
polar opposite, which cannot share the same mental continuum."

The far enemy of metta is ill will, the near enemy is greed, 
according to the text I gound. Greed as in attachment to the loved 
one, I guess, involving wrong view of self.

"The near enemy of compassion is grief." I've read that karuna 
cetasika can only be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental 
feeling. If there is unpleasant mental feeling, I guess that means 
the near enemy is at work.
"The far enemy is cruelty." When I wish that my worrisome in-lws 
would simply disappear from the face of the earth, this far ebeny is 
at work.

According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy is 
sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. I've said 
before that mudita is the one of the four that I have the most 
trouble understanding. I would have thought that the far enemy is 
envy, and the near enemy a kind of deluded bliss that is founded on 
wrong understanding. A belief that all is well in the world, that joy 
will prevail thanks to the Buddha's teaching. That is not the case. 
Of course, there is bliss based in right understanding - one of the 7 
factors of enlightentment, if I recall correctly. (rapture?) 

"Equanimity is the highest and most refined of the divine abidings" 
says this text. I think upekkha is the starting point of the Brahma-
Viharas, based on right understanding (even at an intellectual level) 
of annata, annica and dukkha. So I might not think of it as the 
highest or most refined, because that makes it sound as though it 
were rarer or harder to have, only available in the 4th Jhana. In my 
opinion it is the most central and common, though the Jhana version 
is surely a different degree of eqaunimity than what I am thinking 
about. 

I'm digressing.
The near enemy of equanimity is ignorance, says the text. ("what the 
Thai tradition calls "water-buffalo equanimity.") The far enemies are 
both attachment and aversion. What about indifference. Indifference 
could be a near enemy, I'd say. 

Thanks for reminding me about the near and far enemies, Nina. If 
anyone has a different interpretation of them from the text I 
referred to, or my own interpretations, please jump in.

Metta,
Phil
	
33527

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 6:56pm
Subject: Sati and mindfulness - "completely different?"

Hello Nina, and all.

Nina, your mention of the near and far enemies reminded me of 
something that I wanted to ask about from Buddhism in Daily Life.

On p.116, you write "Sati in vipassana is mindful, non-forgetful of 
ultimate realities, of the namas and rupas which appear. It is 
*completely different* from what we mean by "mindfulness" 
or "awareness" in conventional language."

This "completely different" makes me think of the "polar opposites" 
of the far enemies, while it seems to me that my conventional 
mindfulness is on the same mental continuum as true sati, though 
still miles away. 

Wouldn't you agree that refining one's conventional mindfulness, 
pressing gently ahead with it, in the light of the Buddha's teaching 
and in the company of good dhamma friends will lead one towards sati? 
I would guess that there can be no sati without having first pressed 
ahead with conventional mindfulness for some time. Yesterday I walked 
through the train station and was mindful of walking through the 
train station. Can I one day be walking through the train station and 
have a sati moment re realities of hardness, temperature etc without 
having first walked through that station many times with conventional 
awareness of walking through a train station? Well, I can imagine in 
theory how I could. 

That "completely different" might put off beginners like myself 
from making first steps towards sati, through conventional 
mindfulness, in my opinion. Isn't conventional mindfulness related in 
some way to sati in vipassana, perhaps as an early stage of sati? 
Perhaps I am just nitpicking about language, but that "completely 
different" seems a bit tough. :)

Metta,
Phil
	
33528

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 7:05pm
Subject: Re: Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> Nina encouraged me to look into the near and far enemies of the 
> Brahma-Viharas, so I will share what I learned about them through 
the 
> good graces of Google. (sorry, no reference available for author.) 
> 
> A near enemy is a "state which resembles the true abiding but 
> misses if by being tinged with the defilements." A far enemy 
is "Its 
> polar opposite, which cannot share the same mental continuum."

=====

The far enemy is easy to identify as it is an opposite. The near 
enemy is much more dangerous as it masquerades as a friend and can 
easily be mistaken for a sublime state.

=====
> 
> The far enemy of metta is ill will, the near enemy is greed, 
> according to the text I gound. Greed as in attachment to the loved 
> one, I guess, involving wrong view of self.

=====

The near enemy of metta is selfish affection, attachment. We should 
find out whether we want to be kind only to people who we 
particularly like, or whether we are kind to whomever we meet, 
because we are truly concerned for his welfare. From our own 
experience we can learn to see the difference between loving kindness 
and selfish affection. When there is loving kindness we do not think 
of our own enjoyment in someone's company.

=====
> 
> "The near enemy of compassion is grief." I've read that karuna 
> cetasika can only be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental 
> feeling. If there is unpleasant mental feeling, I guess that means 
> the near enemy is at work.
> "The far enemy is cruelty." When I wish that my worrisome in-lws 
> would simply disappear from the face of the earth, this far ebeny 
is 
> at work.

=====

The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is 
aversion. When we see someone else who is in miserable circumstances, 
there tend to be moments of compassion when we wish to help to allay 
his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his 
suffering.

=====
> 
> According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy 
is 
> sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. I've said 
> before that mudita is the one of the four that I have the most 
> trouble understanding. I would have thought that the far enemy is 
> envy, and the near enemy a kind of deluded bliss that is founded on 
> wrong understanding. A belief that all is well in the world, that 
joy 
> will prevail thanks to the Buddha's teaching. That is not the case. 
> Of course, there is bliss based in right understanding - one of the 
7 
> factors of enlightentment, if I recall correctly. (rapture?) 

=====

The far enemy of mudita is aversion (boredom). One cannot have joy 
when one is bored. At the moment of mudita there is calm. I agree 
with you that if we tend to be jealous, it is difficult to cultivate 
mudita.

The near enemy of mudita is joy based on the home life, as both share 
in seeing success. When we say to someone else: "What a beautiful 
garden you have", there may be moments of sympathetic joy, sincere 
approval of his good fortune, but there may also be moments with 
attachment to pleasant objects.

=====
> 
> "Equanimity is the highest and most refined of the divine 
abidings" 
> says this text. I think upekkha is the starting point of the Brahma-
> Viharas, based on right understanding (even at an intellectual 
level) 
> of annata, annica and dukkha. So I might not think of it as the 
> highest or most refined, because that makes it sound as though it 
> were rarer or harder to have, only available in the 4th Jhana. In 
my 
> opinion it is the most central and common, though the Jhana 
version 
> is surely a different degree of eqaunimity than what I am thinking 
> about. 
> 
> I'm digressing.
> The near enemy of equanimity is ignorance, says the text. ("what 
the 
> Thai tradition calls "water-buffalo equanimity.") The far enemies 
are 
> both attachment and aversion. What about indifference. Indifference 
> could be a near enemy, I'd say. 

=====

The near enemy of upekkha is ignorance. One may think that there is 
equanimity when, in fact, we are simply ignoring. Indifference is a 
form of ignorance.

=====
> 
> Thanks for reminding me about the near and far enemies, Nina. If 
> anyone has a different interpretation of them from the text I 
> referred to, or my own interpretations, please jump in.
> 
=====

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33529

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 8:44pm
Subject: Playing around with the past

Dear DSGers

Peter Harvey writes that, according to Dhamma, we have 
had "countless" rebirths.
When I first came to Buddhism, I was encouraged to develop metta and 
compassion towards "difficult" people by remembering that, in the 
past, they had shown great compassion towards me - indeed, they had 
even been my mother!
Can anyone tell me if there is a source for this in the Pali Tipitika?
Identity issues aside (ie anatta), I am not convinced that this 
technique is based on panna as it so easily becomes "tit for tat" 
("Okay, you're nasty to me but I would have been nasty to you in a 
past life, so we're even.")

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33530

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 4:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Hi, Larry -

In a message dated 5/30/04 9:50:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:


> Hi Howard,
> 
> I agree that craving is wanting what is imaginatively lacking and
> clinging is holding on to an imaginary source of security, but I wonder
> why the objects of the two are different. Any ideas?
> 
> Also, how does this relate to 'upadana khandha'? And how does one dispel
> craving for existence and non-existence? [if you say the 8-fold path
> please explain]
> 
> Larry
> 
=======================
Larry, I don't think I have much of value to add to what you quote me 
as saying below. Sorry.

With metta,
Howard

> ---------------------------
> In a message dated 5/30/04 6:34:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LBIDD@w... writes: 
> Hi Victor, 
> The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence,
> and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging to
> views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality
> belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is sense
> pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this
> difference? 
> Larry 
> ======================= 
> I think that the categorizings
> of tanha and upadana that you gave, and are, indeed, standard, are
> formulations that emphasize important aspects of the defilements that
> hold us in thrall, but which are not fully general. Upadana generally is
> clinging to desired phenomena or to the absence of undesired phenomena,
> and it is an outgrowth of craving for the presence or the absence of
> these phenomena or of feelings associated with them. (One doesn't
> typically crave a view or crave rites and rituals, but one *does* crave
> the pleasant feelings they produce.) 
> When something is desired and
> then obtained, or imagined to be obtained, one clings to that
> phenomenon. As I see it, when reality then forces one to lose his/her
> grip on the desired phenomenon, craving often increases even more, and a
> vicious cycle ensues involving emotional proliferation. Of course it is
> also frequently the case that when a desired phenomenon is "attained",
> it loses its allure, and then the desire for it is replaced by aversion
> - actual dislike or perhaps boredom - and by the desire for a
> substitute, or some time may go by, one comes to forget that the object
> of desire was not really worthy, and desire for it arises yet again. Up
> and down, and back and forth we are thrown on the waves of desire and
> clinging, carried along on the ocean of samsara. 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33531

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun May 30, 2004 11:48pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Andrew -
> 
> In a message dated 5/30/04 7:09:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> athel60@t... writes:
> 
> > Andrew: If "right understanding comes first" is a correct 
description 
> > indicating that, in terms of the Path, a moment without right 
> > understanding is useless/irrelevant, then surely trying to 
arrange 
> > other factors like right concentration etc is like re-arranging 
the 
> > deck chairs on the Titanic? (-:
> > 
> =====================
Howard: Well. I don't see that there is much of anything of 
ultimate import 
> that we can *directly* arrange or control. But I do believe that we 
can set in 
> motion series of events that are salutory.

Hi Howard

As a reward for your salutory patience and good cheer, I shall sign 
off on this thread with the final paragraph of the Culasihananda 
Sutta as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi: 

"Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen 
in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising 
of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no 
longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no 
longer clings to a doctrine of self. When he does not cling, he is 
not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains 
Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been 
lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to 
any state of being'."

Back to you and Nina!

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33532

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 0:31am
Subject: Re: [dsg] kammathana, meditation subject

Dear Nina,

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: > Dear Sarah
> N: Just in vipassana, in the texts about the two meanings of jhana:
> jhana
> that has the subjects of samatha, and jhana of the three
> characteristics.
> Here is a text:
> We read in the 3Discourse on Expunging2(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that
> the
> Buddha said to Cunda:
> 
> 3These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate,
> Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our
> instruction
> to you.2
> 
> In Pali the word 3jhåyathå2 is used, that can be translated as
> contemplate.
> The Commentary to this sutta, the 3Papañcasúdaní2, explains that there
> are
> two meanings of jhåna:
> contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha
> (aramma.núpanijjhåna),
> and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning
> with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields
> (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: 3It is said, develop
> samatha
> and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.2
....
S:Thank you for reminding me. Yes we’ve discussed these suttas many times
and I’d forgotten the use of the Pali terms ‘amramma.nuupanijjhaana’ and
‘lakkhanuupanijjhaana’ in this context. Often friends bring up the
well-known Dhp verse 372 (inc. Victor recently to Christine):
.....
V: >natthi jhaana.m apa~n~nassa
There is no jhana for one with no discernment

pa~n~naa natthi ajjhaayato
no discernment for one with no jhana<
....
When these lines were briefly discussed on our last trip to Bkk, K.Sujin
was referring to these same two kinds of jhana, ‘amramma.nuupanijjhaana’
and ‘lakkhanuupanijjhaana’, and suggesting that in this context it is the
second meaning, i.e (the contemplation/penetrating of) the characteristics
of any reality that is being referred to.

(Actually, I recall now that when I discussed this verse briefly with
Victor before, I referred to those same earlier discussions jhaaya and
jhaayatha and the earlier details from the Tiika to this Dhp verse which
RobK gave in post 30795. He also quoted Jim’s earlier helpful comments on
these terms in post 11524.) 

So when we read any of these terms, usually translated as meditation,
meditate, meditator, concentration etc, we need to look at the context:

jhaana, jhaayati, jhaayathaa, jhaayana, jhaayin etc
....
> And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation:
> Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
> Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
> (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito
> (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n
> ca
> vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati
> maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful).
....
S: Develop samatha and vipassana, penetrating the characteristics inherent
in the khandhas etc. Don’t be neglectful!! (Pa~n~naa, not self!).

Many thanks,

Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33533

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:06am
Subject: Re: Playing around with the past

Hello Andrew,

Perhaps this is what you were thinking of?:

Samyutta Nikaya XV.14-19 Mata Sutta 'Mother'
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable 
beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, 
though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are 
transmigrating & wandering on. A being who has not been your mother 
at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not 
been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your 
daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find. 
"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. 
A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by 
ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. 
Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced 
loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with 
all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be 
released." 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-014.html


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <athel60@t...> 
wrote:
> Dear DSGers
> 
> Peter Harvey writes that, according to Dhamma, we have 
> had "countless" rebirths.
> When I first came to Buddhism, I was encouraged to develop metta 
and 
> compassion towards "difficult" people by remembering that, in the 
> past, they had shown great compassion towards me - indeed, they 
had 
> even been my mother!
> Can anyone tell me if there is a source for this in the Pali 
Tipitika?
> Identity issues aside (ie anatta), I am not convinced that this 
> technique is based on panna as it so easily becomes "tit for tat" 
> ("Okay, you're nasty to me but I would have been nasty to you in a 
> past life, so we're even.")
> 
> Best wishes
> Andrew
	
33534

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:07am
Subject: Re: Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Phil,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> 
wrote:
> > Nina encouraged me to look into the near and far enemies of 
the 
> > Brahma-Viharas, so I will share what I learned about them 
through 
> the 
> > good graces of Google. (sorry, no reference available for 
author.) 
> > 
> > A near enemy is a "state which resembles the true abiding but 
> > misses if by being tinged with the defilements." A far enemy 
> is "Its 
> > polar opposite, which cannot share the same mental continuum."
> 
> =====
> 
> The far enemy is easy to identify as it is an opposite. The near 
> enemy is much more dangerous as it masquerades as a friend and can 
> easily be mistaken for a sublime state.
> 
> =====
> > 
> > The far enemy of metta is ill will, the near enemy is greed, 
> > according to the text I gound. Greed as in attachment to the 
loved 
> > one, I guess, involving wrong view of self.
> 
> =====
> 
> The near enemy of metta is selfish affection, attachment. We 
should 
> find out whether we want to be kind only to people who we 
> particularly like, or whether we are kind to whomever we meet, 
> because we are truly concerned for his welfare. From our own 
> experience we can learn to see the difference between loving 
kindness 
> and selfish affection. When there is loving kindness we do not 
think 
> of our own enjoyment in someone's company.
> 
> =====
> > 
> > "The near enemy of compassion is grief." I've read that karuna 
> > cetasika can only be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental 
> > feeling. If there is unpleasant mental feeling, I guess that 
means 
> > the near enemy is at work.
> > "The far enemy is cruelty." When I wish that my worrisome in-
lws 
> > would simply disappear from the face of the earth, this far 
ebeny 
> is 
> > at work.
> 
> =====
> 
> The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is 
> aversion. When we see someone else who is in miserable 
circumstances, 
> there tend to be moments of compassion when we wish to help to 
allay 
> his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his 
> suffering.
> 
> =====
> > 
> > According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic 
joy 
> is 
> > sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom. I've 
said 
> > before that mudita is the one of the four that I have the most 
> > trouble understanding. I would have thought that the far enemy 
is 
> > envy, and the near enemy a kind of deluded bliss that is founded 
on 
> > wrong understanding. A belief that all is well in the world, 
that 
> joy 
> > will prevail thanks to the Buddha's teaching. That is not the 
case. 
> > Of course, there is bliss based in right understanding - one of 
the 
> 7 
> > factors of enlightentment, if I recall correctly. (rapture?) 
> 
> =====
> 
> The far enemy of mudita is aversion (boredom). One cannot have joy 
> when one is bored. At the moment of mudita there is calm. I agree 
> with you that if we tend to be jealous, it is difficult to 
cultivate 
> mudita.
> 
> The near enemy of mudita is joy based on the home life, as both 
share 
> in seeing success. When we say to someone else: "What a beautiful 
> garden you have", there may be moments of sympathetic joy, sincere 
> approval of his good fortune, but there may also be moments with 
> attachment to pleasant objects.
> 
> =====
> > 
> > "Equanimity is the highest and most refined of the divine 
> abidings" 
> > says this text. I think upekkha is the starting point of the 
Brahma-
> > Viharas, based on right understanding (even at an intellectual 
> level) 
> > of annata, annica and dukkha. So I might not think of it as the 
> > highest or most refined, because that makes it sound as though 
it 
> > were rarer or harder to have, only available in the 4th Jhana. 
In 
> my 
> > opinion it is the most central and common, though the Jhana 
> version 
> > is surely a different degree of eqaunimity than what I am 
thinking 
> > about. 
> > 
> > I'm digressing.
> > The near enemy of equanimity is ignorance, says the text. 
("what 
> the 
> > Thai tradition calls "water-buffalo equanimity.") The far 
enemies 
> are 
> > both attachment and aversion. What about indifference. 
Indifference 
> > could be a near enemy, I'd say. 
> 
> =====
> 
> The near enemy of upekkha is ignorance. One may think that there 
is 
> equanimity when, in fact, we are simply ignoring. Indifference is 
a 
> form of ignorance.
> 
> =====
> > 
> > Thanks for reminding me about the near and far enemies, Nina. 
If 
> > anyone has a different interpretation of them from the text I 
> > referred to, or my own interpretations, please jump in.
> > 
> =====
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

Friend Rob M.,

I think that this is a very nice, complete, and impartial 
description of the near and far enemies of the Brahma-Viharas. I 
wish to personally thank you for your efforts. To add one thing you 
don't mention, which is my opinion (I think), just because the 
Brahma-Viharas have near and far enemies that isn't sufficient 
reason to become alarmist and consider them dangerous for practice. 
In samsara, everything has near and far enemies, but that is no 
reason to become immobilized with fear about wrong practice. 

Metta, James
	
33535

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:09am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hi Christine & Howard,

Excuse me for picking up this thread rather late. I understood your
feelings and concern with this issue, Chris. A long time ago I raised a
series of events starting with a couple of dreams . Ok, one was on the
first night I arrived in India (back in the early 70s) and related to a
very unusual dream about a place. It was forgotten, but later when I went
to Sarnath, I seemed to recognise the place from the dream and seemed to
have a sense of knowing my way around (highly unusual for me!!). Many
years later, I started to touch on it once with K.Sujin, still trying to
understand and probably, secretly rather proud of it. She cut it short
before I got to the end of the sentence and just said ‘Attachment’. She
could have added ‘Let it go!’. That was the implication and it was
certainly the end of that topic. It gave me a bit of a shock at the time
but it was very helpful.

I understood from the one word that whether the experiences seemed good or
bad at the time, the thinking and proliferating and trying to work them
out merely indicates attachment now. Much better to just let them go. It’s
like a special or unusual experience that someone reports from their
meditation. It’s gone already and dwelling on it, trying to work it out,
just increases attachment to oneself and one’s experiences. We can never
understand all the conditions at work, but as understanding develops,
there is less and less cause for doubt about the conditioned nature of any
dhammas appearing.

I’m inclined to agree with Howard’s comments here and in another post too:

--- upasaka@a... wrote:
>I think that it is a matter of our somehow picking up on the fact that
(nearly) all the conditions necessary for the occurrence of an event have
occurred, making that event a (near) certainty. Of course, picking up on
that fact might well be an additional condition that could, itself, alter
the flow of events. But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of
causes and conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of
momentariness (or, better, of what is current being what is actual).
Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma as I see it.<

S: Again we have to remember it’s a path of detachment and not attribute
importance to any unusual experiences, natural as it may be to do so;-). I
don’t find it helpful to dwell or reflect on any dreams or particularly
strong emotions (i.e. more thinking with kilesa, accompanied by pleasant
or unplesant feelings at these times usually), otherwise there’s just more
clinging to oneself again.

I apologise if these comments sound rather direct or discouraging.

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33536

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 1:18am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation

Hi Victor,

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote:
> Let me first quote the following from 
> Samyutta Nikaya XII.2
> Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
> Analysis of Dependent Co-arising
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html
> 
> 
> "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the 
> origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not 
> knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This 
> is called ignorance."
....
Good quotes and we're in agreement so far on this thread(!!), apart from
the fact that I think 'stress' is most inaccurate as a translation of
dukkha.
...

> What does it mean by knowing the cessation of the dukkha?
> 
> Let me use a simile:
> Suppose one is wandering in the desert, suffering from heat and 
> thirst. However, he knows that there is an oasis ...
....
It's a good simile (sorry to cut it short). Just remind me where I can
read it in the texts, would you? TIA.

Metta,

Sarah
=======

	
33537

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:18am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Victor,

Firstly, thank you very much for providing this sutta - just what I was
looking for. We had a detailed discussion on it ages ago - maybe before
escribe!

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: 
> [1]
> Anguttara Nikaya IV.42
> Pañha Sutta
> Questions
> Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> For free distribution only. 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There 
> are questions that should be answered categorically 
> [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that 
> should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining 
> or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be 
> answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be 
> put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." 
****
S: Note that this sutta refers to the various methods of reply.
‘Categorical’ refers to one form of possible answer, not to the questions.
I think we all have to determine, according to limited wisdom and other
factors which respnse we feel is most appropriate at any time. 
...
V:> As I understand it:
> 
> No, the Buddha did not recommend or suggest that all Yes/No 
> questions should at all times be answered with a `Yes', `No' 
> or `Don't know' reply.
> 
> On the other hand, nor did the Buddha recommend or suggest that 
> categorical questions should be evaded.
> 
> Categorical questions[1] are questions like
> 
> Is birth dukkha or not?
....
S: See my comment above;-).
....
V: > Let me put forth this question, but you don't have to answer it.
> 
> If someone says to you:
> 
> "Abandon what is unskillful, Sarah. It is possible to abandon what 
> is unskillful. 
<...>
> But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to 
> benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" 
> 
> would you make an effort to abandon what is unskillful and develop 
> what is skillful or would you ask others the question
> "Do you see the Abandoning and Developing as being performed by
> self, or panna, accompanied by other eightfold path factors, or 
> meditation as defined by sitting cross-legged in a quiet
> room,focusing on breath?"
> ?
....
S: It might well depend on who quoted the sutta and in what context and
whether I considered there would be any value in such a discussion;-) 

Because we often interpret suttas in a different way, I chose to ask for a
clarification to check we were on the same page. I still have no idea from
your response;-).

OK, let me tell you that I see pa~n~naa, accompanied by other eightfold
path factors as performing the Developing and Abandoning. Here are a few
quotes:

1. From ‘Questions of King Milinda, ch 111’

"Just as, your majesty, a person might bring a lamp into a dark house, and
with the lamp lit dispels the darkness, produces illumination, shows the
light, and makes manifest forms, so too, your majesty, wisdom arising
dispels the darkness of ignorance, produces the illumination of insight,
brings forth the light of knowledge, and makes manifest the noble truths;
and further, the spiritual practitioner sees with complete understanding
impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and corelessness." 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/index.html#miln

2.From AN, Bk of Ones, XV11, ‘The Seed’ (PTS transl)
“<...> Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the
non-arising of evil states not yet arisen, or, if arisen, to cause their
waning , as right view.

Monks, in one of right view evil states not yet arisen arise not,or, if
arisen, waste away.

“<....>Monks, I know not of any other single thing so apt to cause the
arising of good states not yet arisen, or, if arisen, to cause their
more-becoming and increase, as right view.

Monks, in one of right view good states not yet arisen rise, or, if
arisen, are apt to grow and grow.”
*****
3. From Mahaacattaariisaka sutta, MN117

“Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first”.

In Bodhi’s footnote 1100 for `pubbangamaa',
lit. "the forerunner", he gives:

"MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners:
the right view of insight [as being discussed above],
which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering,
and non-self; and the right view of the path, which
arises as a consequence of insight and effects the
radical destruction of defilements."

“And how does right view come first? One [i.e pa~n~naa] understands wrong
view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one’s right
view.”

In Bodhi’s footnote 1101, he gives:

“MA says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong
view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence,
etc, and which understands right view by exercising the function of
comprehension and by clearing away confusion.”
*****
In any case, Victor, I’d like to thank you very much for this and all the
other excellent sutta passages you’ve posted recently, full of very
helpful reminders. I know you’ll soon be going away and I know I’ll miss
your contributions again if you’re unable to post at any time and
sincerely hope that your plans work out as you’d like and provide many
opportunities for wise reflection, companionship and wisdom.

Thank you again for helping me to consider and reflect so often.

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33538

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams

Hello Sarah, all,

Please be at ease - no discouragement experienced at all. I don't 
feel any great attachment or specialness because of the feelings and 
dreams - they simply 'are' and I don't feel they, or I, are of any 
particularly importance. These occasional dreams and feelings just 
don't fit with what the Abhidhamma teaches - that there is only the 
present moment, and the future does not yet exist in any form. 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Christine & Howard,
> 
> Excuse me for picking up this thread rather late. I understood your
> feelings and concern with this issue, Chris. A long time ago I 
raised a
> series of events starting with a couple of dreams . Ok, one was on 
the
> first night I arrived in India (back in the early 70s) and related 
to a
> very unusual dream about a place. It was forgotten, but later when 
I went
> to Sarnath, I seemed to recognise the place from the dream and 
seemed to
> have a sense of knowing my way around (highly unusual for me!!). 
Many
> years later, I started to touch on it once with K.Sujin, still 
trying to
> understand and probably, secretly rather proud of it. She cut it 
short
> before I got to the end of the sentence and just 
said `Attachment'. She
> could have added `Let it go!'. That was the implication and it was
> certainly the end of that topic. It gave me a bit of a shock at 
the time
> but it was very helpful.
> 
> I understood from the one word that whether the experiences seemed 
good or
> bad at the time, the thinking and proliferating and trying to work 
them
> out merely indicates attachment now. Much better to just let them 
go. It's
> like a special or unusual experience that someone reports from 
their
> meditation. It's gone already and dwelling on it, trying to work 
it out,
> just increases attachment to oneself and one's experiences. We can 
never
> understand all the conditions at work, but as understanding 
develops,
> there is less and less cause for doubt about the conditioned 
nature of any
> dhammas appearing.
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with Howard's comments here and in another 
post too:
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote:
> >I think that it is a matter of our somehow picking up on the fact 
that
> (nearly) all the conditions necessary for the occurrence of an 
event have
> occurred, making that event a (near) certainty. Of course, picking 
up on
> that fact might well be an additional condition that could, 
itself, alter
> the flow of events. But, bottom-line, I think this is just an 
instance of
> causes and conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea 
of
> momentariness (or, better, of what is current being what is 
actual).
> Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma as I see it.<
> 
> S: Again we have to remember it's a path of detachment and not 
attribute
> importance to any unusual experiences, natural as it may be to do 
so;-). I
> don't find it helpful to dwell or reflect on any dreams or 
particularly
> strong emotions (i.e. more thinking with kilesa, accompanied by 
pleasant
> or unplesant feelings at these times usually), otherwise there's 
just more
> clinging to oneself again.
> 
> I apologise if these comments sound rather direct or discouraging.
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> ======
> 
> 
> 
	
33539

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 4:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Andrew (and Larry) -

In a message dated 5/31/04 3:21:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
athel60@t... writes:

> Howard: Well. I don't see that there is much of anything of 
> ultimate import 
> >that we can *directly* arrange or control. But I do believe that we 
> can set in 
> >motion series of events that are salutory.
> 
> Hi Howard
> 
> As a reward for your salutory patience and good cheer, I shall sign 
> off on this thread with the final paragraph of the Culasihananda 
> Sutta as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi: 
> 
> "Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen 
> in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising 
> of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no 
> longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no 
> longer clings to a doctrine of self. When he does not cling, he is 
> not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains 
> Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been 
> lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to 
> any state of being'."
> 
> Back to you and Nina!
> 
> Best wishes
> Andrew
> 
=========================
Thank you, Andrew, for this "thread-terminating post". ;-) I will 
afford myself of this opportunity to make use of this post to point out something 
that I have just noticed.
Larry, with regard to our recent exchange on your query as to the 
distinction between items standardly mentioned as craved and items mentioned as 
clung to: Here the Buddha states "when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge 
has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the 
arising of true knowledge, he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer 
clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a 
doctrine of self." Two of these, personality belief and clinging to rules and 
rituals are, of course, two of the three fetters abandoned at stream entry. 
Instead of sceptical doubt, here there is mentioned ignorance and clinging to 
sensual pleasures and views. But it is not surprising that so much is mentioned, 
because this passage does not speak about stream entry, but entry to the 
state of arahant, inasmuch as abandoning both sensual pleasures and ignorance (the 
"topper") are spoken of and there is said "He understands: 'Birth is 
destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is 
no more coming to any state of being'."
It occurs to me, Larry, the standard presentation of clinging as being 
a matter of
_________________________

> sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views (ditthupádána), clinging 
> to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to personality-belief 
> (atta-vádupádána)
___________________________

is mainly directed at stream enterers or those close to stream entry, because 
for stream enterers only sensuous clinging then remains as a fetter to be 
abandoned or nearly so (plus significant weakening of ill will) in order for a 
stream enterer to become a once returner.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 





	
33540

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 3

Insight develops stage by stage, so that eventually enlightenment can be
attained. At the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotåpanna,
wrong view of self is eradicated, and at the fourth and final stage, the
stage of the arahat, all defilements are eradicated. Some people at the
Buddha¹s time had accumulated a high degree of understanding and when they
heard only a few words, when they heard about the impermanence of realities
such as seeing or hearing, they could immediately penetrate their true
nature and even attain arahatship.
Acharn Sujin stressed many times that the objects insight has to be
developed of are very ordinary, occurring in daily life, but that attachment
always distracts us from awareness and understanding of what appears at the
present moment. Lobha urges us to do something different from understanding
seeing or hearing that arises now. Seeing for the arahat is not different
from seeing for us at this moment. However, we still have ignorance, wrong
view and all the other defilements.
We see all that appears through the eyes. Seeing is a reality, a dhamma that
appears. Ignorance does not know that it is dhamma. It is natural that
ignorance and wrong view follow upon seeing very often. When we have a
notion of ³I see persons and things², the dhamma at that moment is not
seeing but thinking of concepts. Gradually we can learn that there are many
different dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time. This is a
condition for the arising of direct awareness and understanding and it is
the sure way leading to the penetration of anattå.
During lunch in Khun Duangduen¹s garden we discussed realities while we were
enjoying the food. I was reflecting on hardness, a reality that is
experienced through the bodysense. Sometimes there can be just a moment of
awareness of hardness, and I was discussing this with Acharn Sujin. She
reminded me of the truth, saying, ³Even when there is awareness of hardness,
there is still an idea of hardness as Œmine¹.² She explained that there is
an underlying tendency of ³self¹, even when we believe that there is
awareness. She said that lobha is always with us, that it is the second
noble Truth, which is the cause of dukkha [3].
We may be thinking of lobha and wrong view, but only when they arise, there
can be understanding of them. Paññå knows that they must be eliminated.

Footnote:

3. The four noble Truths are: dukkha, the unsatisfactoriness inherent in all
conditioned realities, the origin of dukkha that is craving, the cessation
of dukkha that is nibbåna and the eightfold Path leading to the cessation of
dukkha. 
****
Nina.
	
33541

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Dear Philip,
I am glad you looked at the far and near enemies. After Friday, when I have
returned from our short leave I shall now and then post some notes from A.
Sujin's tape. For now just about mudita, see below.
op 31-05-2004 03:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> According to the text I read, the near enemy of sympathetic joy is
> sensual pleasure, the far enemy is aversion and boredom.
N: You thought of jealousy as the far enemy, but it is aversion. Jealousy
accompanies citta rooted in aversion. This may clarify that aversion is
mentioned here.
The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion. Thus, for the
sotapanna it is easier to have mudita. The sotapanna has right view about
kamma and vipaka, he understands that whatever fortune someone else has,
this is the result of kamma. Thus, there is no reason for jealousy. Also in
the course of insight, even at the beginning stage of insight, there is
understanding of kamma and vipaka. Seeing and hearing are vipaka, but so
long as we do not know them as conditioned namas we are ignorant of what
vipaka is. 
The sotapanna is a person who walks straight, ujupatipanno, as the Pali text
states about respect to the Sangha. The monks chanit, we chant it all the
time when we are in India, going around in the holy places. Entered on the
straght way, on the true way. As we read in A. Sujin's Wholesome Deeds,
straightening one's views is one of the ten kusala kammas, and this can be
applied with all kusala kamma. When we discern more the near and far
enemies, we are straightening our views. Lobha can be very subtle, we may be
easily deluded and take it for kusala. A fine discrimination is needed.
Straightening one's views is necessary with the Brahmaviharas and all forms
of mental development.
Nina.
	
33542

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: Sati

Dear Philip,
Very good you bring this up. I like to discuss this more later on.
op 31-05-2004 03:56 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> On p.116, you write "Sati in vipassana is mindful, non-forgetful of
> ultimate realities, of the namas and rupas which appear. It is
> *completely different* from what we mean by "mindfulness"
> or "awareness" in conventional language."
(snipped)
> I would guess that there can be no sati without having first pressed
> ahead with conventional mindfulness for some time. Yesterday I walked
> through the train station and was mindful of walking through the
> train station. 
N: In Ch 16, more is explained. I give a quote of the satipatthanasutta
about the monk walking etc. In the same sutta we read:<When he is walking,
he knows that he is walking.> The Co explains that this is not sati of
satipatthana, also dogs and jackals can have this sort of awareness. It does
not shed the belief in a living being. In other words, he should know nama
and rupa as they are.
When you know that you are walking to the station, it is merely thinking,
and usually thinking with lobha or wrong view: I walk.
Rob K likes this text, a good topic when you are with him. Will you tape or
make notes? 
> 
Ph: That "completely different" might put off beginners like myself
> from making first steps towards sati, through conventional
> mindfulness, in my opinion. Isn't conventional mindfulness related in
> some way to sati in vipassana, perhaps as an early stage of sati?
> Perhaps I am just nitpicking about language, but that "completely
> different" seems a bit tough. :)
N: Yes, it may feel like being hit on the head, doesn't it?
I tell you something. Until we are sotapanna, a person who walks straight,
we are going to have misunderstandings about sati, very normal. I often ask
A. Sujin: how do I know the difference between thinking of nama and rupa and
awareness, it seems a fine borderline.
It is good to know what we do not know. It is true, it is straight. We
prefer the truth. More and more I appreciate walking straight and
straightening one's views.
When the factors of concentration, effort and mindfulness accompany panna,
they are all balanced. It is panna that should be emphasized more than
mindfulness. When there is panna there is the balance of all factors leading
to enlightenment. Concentration, effort and mindfulness arise already when
there is right understanding. In Ch 16, I explain about the objects of
mindfulness and that is important. Right understanding of the objects of
mindfulness, nama and rupa. Intellectual understanding that is correct is
the precursor of direct understanding. That is why A. Sujin says, it is
better not to think so much of sati. Is there any understanding of dhamma
now, she repeats. This is what we have to ask ourselves time and again.
Conventional sati will not help to have more understanding of what the
objects of satipatthana are. Of course, while walking you can reflect on
those objects, or you can sit on a cushion (with coffee) and reflect on the
Dhamma. Good to take time for reflection.
Nina.
	
33543

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Tiika Vis. 80, Pali-English

Tiika Vis. 80, Pali-English

****
Pali-English:
. Vis 80:
lakkha.naruupa.m pana nakutocijaata.m. kasmaa? na hi uppaadassa uppaado
atthi, uppannassa ca paripaakabhedamatta.m itaradvaya.m. yampi
``ruupaayatana.m saddaayatana.m gandhaayatana.m rasaayatana.m
pho.t.thabbaayatana.m aakaasadhaatu aapodhaatu ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa
mudutaa, ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati,
kaba.liikaaro aahaaro, ime dhammaa cittasamu.t.thaanaa''tiaadiisu (dha. sa.
1201) jaatiyaa kutocijaatatta.m anu~n~naata.m, ta.m pana
ruupajanakapaccayaana.m kiccaanubhaavakkha.ne di.t.thattaati veditabba.m.

ida.m taava ruupakkhandhe vitthaarakathaamukha.m.

Tiika Vis 80;
Lakkha.naruupa.m pana nakutocijaatanti kutocipi paccayato na jaata.m,
As to the expression, matter as characteristic is called ³not born from
anything², because they are not arisen from any cause...

Katha.m paneta.m vi~n~naatabba.m lakkha.naruupa.m na jaayatiiti?
How should it be understood that materiality as characteristic does not
arise? 

Lakkha.naabhaavato.
Because it is without that characteristic.

Uppattimantaana.m hi ruupaayatanaadiina.m jaati-aadiini lakkha.naani
vijjanti, na eva.m jaati-aadiina.m.
In the texts about origination of visible object and so on, the
characteristics of birth etc. are to be found, but not (the characteristics
of) birth etc. itself.

Tasmaa vi~n~naatabbameta.m jaati-aadiini na jaayantiiti....
Therefore, it should be known that arising etc, does not arise, etc. ..

Tenaaha ³na hi uppaadassa uppaado atthi, uppannassa ca paripaakabhedamatta.m
itaradvayan²ti, jaraamara.nanti attho.
Therefore he said, ³Because there is no arising of arising, and the other
two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen², and this refers
to old age and death.

Tattha ³uppaado natthii²ti etena uppaadassa jaraamara.naabhaavamaaha....
Here, in this case, with the words, there is no arising, he spoke about the
fact that old age and death do not arise....

N: the Tiika then explains the words of the Vis text: Though in the passage,
'The visible-data base, the sound base, .. (yampi..) where it is shown that
it is allowable to say that a factor such as citta, when it originates a
group of rupas, also originates the characteristic of arising that is bound
up with that group.

Text:Yadi eva.m katha.m ³jaraamara.na.m pa.ticcasamuppannan²ti (sa.m. ni.
2.20) vutta.m? 
Why did he say that old age and death have arisen dependent on a condition?

Yasmaa pa.ticcasamuppannaana.m dhammaana.m paripaakabha"ngataaya tesu
santesu honti, na asantesu.
Because of the ripening and breaking up of the dhammas that have arisen
dependent on conditions, when these occur, not when they do not occur.

Na hi ajaata.m paripaccati, bhijjati vaa, tasmaa ta.m jaatipaccayata.m
sandhaaya ³jaraamara.na.m pa.ticcasamuppannan²ti (sa.m. ni. 2.20)
pariyaayena suttesu vutta.m.
What is not born does not mature or break up, therefore, with reference to
birth that is dependent on conditions he said, by way of the method of
teaching in the suttas, ³old age and death have arisen in dependence on
conditions.².... 

N: The Tiika concludes this section of Rupakkhandha by stating that what was
not mentioned here with regard to birth in sensuous planes etc. by
kamma-condition etc.,will be explained elsewhere in the teaching on the
Dependent origination.

Tiika: Iti ruupakkhandhe vitthaarakathaamukha.m.
This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the materiality
aggregate.

*****
Nina.
	
33544

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)

Dear Philip,
A.Sujin gave an example to us: someone has the intention to give, it is
kusala, but it is very weak. Thus, this cannot be called kusala kamma patha,
a completed kusala action. After all he cannot give. We have to know the
citta at that moment; is it kusala or akusala?
Don't worry, there are also circumstances that one is unable to give money.
Moreover there are other ways of generosity.
Nina. 
op 31-05-2004 02:52 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> For example, when I told Nina that I intended to send a donation to
> the Dhamma Foundation to thank her for her books, but didn't, was the
> intention itself kusala even though it wasn't followed through? That
> is just one example.
	
33545

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 6:20am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 5/31/04 1:05:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion.
===================
I was under the impression that a sotapanna had eliminated the fetters 
of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self-view. Apparently 
there is more. Could you provide a sutta source giving all the defilements 
uprooted at stream entry?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 



33546

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English)

Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English)

Vis.80
80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'.
Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the
mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. Though in the passage,
'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the favour base,
the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, lightness
of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of
matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these states are
consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667) and so on, a state of birth
[that is, growth] being born from somewhere can be understood as
allowable since the point of view here is the moment when the conditions
that are giving birth to the kinds of materiality are exercising their
function. 
This, firstly, is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with
the materiality aggregate.

Remarks:
As we have seen there are four rupas as characteristics: origination,
continuity, decay and impermanence. These are inherent in all groups of
rupa. Since they are
characteristics, they are not originated by any of the four causes that
originate rupas. Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising, however,
from another viewpoint it can be said (it is allowable as the Vis text
states) that when kamma and the other three causes originate rupas, they
also cause the arising (or birth) of the characteristics of origination and
continuity which are bound up with the other rupas in a group.
The Vis. enumerates the rupas that are originated by citta or as appropriate
by the other causes, and includes here the two rupas of growth of
matter, continuity of matter. These two are actually the origin or birth of
rupa as we have seen. Continuity or development follows immediately upon
growth, which is the first moment of a group of rupas. When we consider the
moment that a cause such as citta begins to originate a group of rupas, it
is allowable to see also the characteristics of origination and continuity
inherent in a group of rupas as being caused by citta. Thus in that sense
there is arising of arising. This cannot be said of decay and impermanence,
since these manifest themselves after the moments of growth and development.
In olden times this was an issue and we read about debates about this
subject 
in the Expositor (II, p. 442, and also in the Co to the Abhidhammattha
Sangaha, p. 243). We read in the Expositor: ²But in the ultimnate sense
birth does not come into being. To one who is being born, the mere [fact of]
rebirth comes into being. ... Maturity and breaking up do not get that
common usage. And why? From their absence at the moment when the productive
cause is powerful. for there is power to productive causes only at the
moment of the production of a state to be produced; none subsequent to
that...² 
We read also about a discussion regarding the sutta texts of the Dependent
Origination. In the Suttas we read about birth, old age and death that arise
dependent on conditions. Some people were doubting whether this text is not
a contradicion of the fact that old age and death which are maturity and
breaking up of what has arisen, do not arise from a cause. The Expositor
states: ³In the Sutta the teaching is explanatory...²
We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 243): <Therefore the
ancients have said:
ŒIn the text [of the Abhidhamma] the generation of birth from some cause is
[stated] from a particular standpoint (pariyaayato); since in these three
[birth, decay, impermanence] the intrinsic nature of conditioned things is
[found], they have been said to be conditioned.¹ > It is also stated in the
Expositor that birth, decay and death happen bound up with the bases (the
rupas of solidity, the other four great Elements and the other rupas). When
these rupas appear, birth, decay and death are revealed.
From these discussions we learn that there are different methods of
explanation (pariyaaya).
Also with regard to other subjects there is reference to different methods
of explanation, for example, the four kinds of aaharaa, nutrition, one being
physical food, and three being mental. They can be explained by way of the
Patthana (conditional relations) or by way of the Dependent origination.
There are no contradictions, only different aspects are shown by means of
different methods of teaching.


Tiika Vis 80;
As to the expression, matter as characteristic is called ³not born from
anything², because they are not arisen from any cause...
How should it be understood that materiality as characteristic does not
arise? 
Because it is without that characteristic.
N: It is itself the characteristic of arising etc. and therefore it does not
have the characteristic of arising.
In the texts about origination of visible object and so on, the
characteristics of birth etc. are to be found, but not (the characteristics
of) birth (arising) etc. itself.
Therefore, it should be known that arising etc, does not arise, etc. ..

N: Origination, being a characteristic, does not arise.

Text:
Therefore he said, ³Because there is no arising of arising, and the other
two are the mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen², and this refers
to old age and death.
N: Old age and death can be taken in the conventional sense. But when it is
used in the ultimate sense with reference to the characteristics of rupas,
the decay and impermanence of groups of rupa are meant.

Text: 
Here, in this case, with the words, there is no arising, he spoke about the
fact that old age and death do not arise....

N: the Tiika then explains the words of the Vis text: Though in the passage,
'The visible-data base, the sound base, .. where it is shown that it is
allowable to say that a factor such as citta, when it originates a group of
rupas, also originates the characteristic of arising that is bound up with
that group. 

Text:
Why did he say that old age and death have arisen dependent on a condition?
Because of the ripening and breaking up of the dhammas that have arisen
dependent on conditions, when these occur, not when they do not occur.

N: Here the method of explanation is the method of the Dependent
Origination. When there is birth, there have to be decay and death.

Tiika text: 
What is not born does not mature or break up, therefore, with reference to
birth that is dependent on conditions he said, by way of the method of
teaching in the suttas, ³old age and death have arisen in dependence on
conditions.².... 

N: The Tiika concludes this section of Rupakkhandha by stating that what was
not mentioned here with regard to birth in sensuous planes etc. by
kamma-condition etc.,will be explained elsewhere in the teaching on the
Dependent origination.

Tiika: 
This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the materiality
aggregate.
*****
N: Concluding remarks:
We are reminded here that all the rupas, the four great Elements and the
derived rupas, originated by the four factors, have the characteristics of
origin, continuation (development), decay and breaking up. Of all those
rupas, visible object or colour is the only rupa that can be seen. All the
other rupas are invisible. Visible object is a rupa that is present in each
group of rupas, it is one of the inseparable rupas. Visible object or colour
of the body is originated by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. We
cling to visible object and it seems to last, but we should remember that
also visible object arises and then falls away completely. No matter how
solid the body may appear, the rupas that arise because of the appropriate
conditions have to fall away. What is born, arisen from a cause, has to
mature and has to break up.
In this way we are reminded time and again that what we take for the body
are only rupas that are impermanent, dukkha and non-self.

****
Nina.
	

	


33547

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 10:51am
Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Andrew (and Larry) -
<snip>
> It occurs to me, Larry, the standard presentation of 
clinging as being 
> a matter of
> _________________________
> 
> > sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views
(ditthupádána), 
clinging 
> > to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to 
personality-belief 
> > (atta-vádupádána)
> ___________________________
> 
> is mainly directed at stream enterers or those close to stream 
entry, because 
> for stream enterers only sensuous clinging then remains as a fetter 
to be 
> abandoned or nearly so (plus significant weakening of ill will) in 
order for a 
> stream enterer to become a once returner.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Hi Howard,

Good point. Sounds to me that it will float. My thought was that 
clinging is far more conceptual as evidenced by the references to 
views (views, rites and rituals, and self view). Craving, on the 
other hand, is more visceral, elemental, basic; and in Dependent 
Arising it is directly related to feeling. Perhaps we could say these 
are two different ways of regarding the khandhas, as clung-to beliefs 
and as desire for continued pleasant feeling and discontinued 
unpleasant feeling. There is still an element of conceptuality in the 
latter, but more subtle. Continuing and discontinuing are eternalism 
and nihilism.

Possibly upadana in dependent arising is similar to registration 
consciousness in citta process. The solidification and eternalisation 
of javana by conceptualizing it and depositing it in the bank of 
accumulations as a resource (or debt). 

Larry
	
33548

From: Larry <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 11:23am
Subject: Re: Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English)

Hi Nina,

I think the commentator may have misunderstood this passage:

"'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the flavour 
base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element, 
lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, 
growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these 
states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667)"

These rupas are not consciousness originated but rather mind-door 
perceived rupas. We could say growth of kamma produced matter is, in 
a sense, produced by volitional consciousness insofar as kamma 
produced matter grows (arises and ceases). I don't know if nutriment 
is said to play a hand in growth. 

Larry
	
33549

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 7:56am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi, Larry -

In a message dated 5/31/04 2:36:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> >Hi, Andrew (and Larry) -
> <snip>
> > It occurs to me, Larry, the standard presentation of 
> clinging as being 
> >a matter of
> >_________________________
> >
> >>sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views
> (ditthupádána), 
> clinging 
> >>to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to 
> personality-belief 
> >>(atta-vádupádána)
> >___________________________
> >
> >is mainly directed at stream enterers or those close to stream 
> entry, because 
> >for stream enterers only sensuous clinging then remains as a fetter 
> to be 
> >abandoned or nearly so (plus significant weakening of ill will) in 
> order for a 
> >stream enterer to become a once returner.
> >
> >With metta,
> >Howard
> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> Good point. Sounds to me that it will float. My thought was that 
> clinging is far more conceptual as evidenced by the references to 
> views (views, rites and rituals, and self view). Craving, on the 
> other hand, is more visceral, elemental, basic; and in Dependent 
> Arising it is directly related to feeling. Perhaps we could say these 
> are two different ways of regarding the khandhas, as clung-to beliefs 
> and as desire for continued pleasant feeling and discontinued 
> unpleasant feeling. There is still an element of conceptuality in the 
> latter, but more subtle. Continuing and discontinuing are eternalism 
> and nihilism.
> 
---------------------------------
Howard:
I agree with clinging as more strongly involving conceptualization. It 
seems to me that it is largely conditioned by cognitive proliferation.
-------------------------------

> 
> Possibly upadana in dependent arising is similar to registration 
> consciousness in citta process. The solidification and eternalisation 
> of javana by conceptualizing it and depositing it in the bank of 
> accumulations as a resource (or debt). 
> 
> Larry 
> 
=======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33550

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:50pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi Howard,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/31/04 1:05:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
nilo@e... 
> writes:
> 
> > The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion.
> ===================
> I was under the impression that a sotapanna had eliminated 
the fetters 
> of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self-view. 
Apparently 
> there is more. Could you provide a sutta source giving all the 
defilements 
> uprooted at stream entry?

Here is a list of akusala cittas eliminated at the path cittas.

Ignorance
=========
The Sotapanna eradicates ignorance associated with doubt. The Arahant 
eradicates ignorance associated with restlessness.

Shamelessness / Recklessness / Restlessness
===========================================
The Arahant eliminates shamelessness, recklessness and restlessness.

Greed
=====
The Sotapanna eliminates greed associated with wrong view. The 
Sakadagami weakens clinging to sense data. The Anagami eliminates 
clinging to sense data. The Arahant eliminates clinging to existence.

Wrong View
==========
The Sotapanna eliminates wrong view.

Conceit
=======
The Arhant eliminates conceit.

Hatred
======
The Sakadagami weakens hatred. The Anagami eliminates hatred.

Jealousy / Selfishness
==================
The Sotapanna eliminates jealousy and selfishness.

Remorse
=======
The Sotapanna eliminates all remorse associated with akusala kamma. 
The Anagami eliminates all remaining remorse.

Sloth / Torpor
==============
The Arahant eliminates sloth and torpor.

Doubt
=====
The Sotapanna eliminates doubt.


The fetters map into the akusala cittas as follows:
- Ignorance: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
- Restlessness: eliminated by Arahant
- Greed: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
- Wrong View: eliminated by Sotapanna
- Conceit: eliminated by Arahant
- Hatred: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
- Jealousy: eliminated by Sotapanna
- Selfishness: eliminated by Sotapanna
- Doubt: eliminated by Sotapanna


The source in the Visuddhimagga.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33551

From: <Jackhat1@a...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 11:56am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

In a message dated 5/30/04 3:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:
The cause of dukkha is tanha, sensual craving, craving for existence, 
and craving for non-existence. Upadana is sensuous clinging, clinging 
to views, clinging to rules and rituals, and clinging to personality 
belief. It appears that the only thing the two have in common is 
sense pleasure. Why is there a difference and how do we resolve this 
difference
====
Larry,

I haven't been following this thread but did notice the above. In the Visud. 
(I think), tanha is described as similar to reaching out to a glass of water. 
Upadana is described as similar to holding tightly to the glass. I have not 
seen a distinction made between the object of tanha and the object of upadana as 
you have made above. In the Cycle of Dependent Origination, tanha is followed 
by upadana without a change of object. Upadana can refer to sense objects.

jack


	
33552

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 4:32pm
Subject: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hello all

No question to ask really - just wanted to share a passge from the 
Dhammapada that really resounded for me this morning.

"Monk, bail out this boat.
It will take you lightly when bailed.
Having cut through passion, aversion, 
you go from there to Unbinding."
(XXV 369 - B Thanissaro)


I carry so much baggage - so much unnecessary baggage. By becoming 
aware of realities of the moment, I can gain a much better 
understanding of how much unnessary baggage I am carrying and take 
steps towards liberation. 

I think I will sing this verse with my guitar, to the tune 
of "Michael Row the Boat ashore." What is the Pali word closest in 
spirit to "Hallelulah?" (Actually, now that I ask that, I'd kind of 
like to know. What word would arise to capture the especially clear 
feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his 
teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to indicate 
sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it 
was... 

Metta,
Phil
p.s Thank you, Nina, to all those responses to the questions I 
asked yesterday. I will be looking at them tonight or tomorrow.
	
33553

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> What word would arise to capture the especially clear 
> feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his 
> teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to 
indicate 
> sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it 
> was... 

Two Pali words come to mind:
- "Anumodana" is used on DSG from time to time and has a sense of 
sharing of great merit; this is probably the word that Sarah used
- "Sadhu" repeated three times is used in Sri Lankan temples and its 
meaning is between "Amen" and "Halleluiah"; it means "well done!"

Metta,
Rob M :-)

PS: I share in your feeling this morning! Reading your post was a 
condition to strengthen this feeling (the power of Mudita).
	
33554

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 2:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi, Rob -

In a message dated 5/31/04 5:51:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
rob.moult@j... writes:

> 
> Here is a list of akusala cittas eliminated at the path cittas.
> 
> 

<Snip of all the detailed information>

> 
> The source in the Visuddhimagga.
> 
=======================
Thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply, Rob. I wonder 
whether anyone knows of a sutta source as support for this, or, lacking that, an 
argument for deducing what is in addition to uprooting of sceptical doubt, 
clinging to rules and rituals, and self view?

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33555

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 9:44pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi Howard,
Rob M gave the list just now. Dhammasangani § 1113, among the ten fetters or
samyojanas. For sutta references, I have to look all over, but no time now.
Nina
op 31-05-2004 19:20 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:


> 
>> The sotapanna has eradicated jealousy, but not aversion.
> ===================
> I was under the impression that a sotapanna had eliminated the fetters
> of sceptical doubt, clinging to rules and rituals, and self-view. Apparently
> there is more. Could you provide a sutta source giving all the defilements
> uprooted at stream entry?
	
33556

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 9:44pm
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 4

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 4

We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(V, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 4,
§ 4, Turban) that the Buddha asked what should be done if one¹s turban or
head is on fire. The answer was that in order to extinguish the fire one
should make extra efforts, and have mindfulness and attention. The Buddha
said:

Well, monks, letting alone, paying no heed to, the blazing turban or head,
for the comprehension as they really are, of the four not penetrated Ariyan
Truths, one must put forth extra desire, effort, endeavour, exertion,
impulse, mindfulness and attention....²

This sutta can remind us that we should not delay the development of
understanding of all realities arising at this moment. Acharn Sujin said
that lobha is attached to everything and that we are always in danger. There
is as it were fire on our heads.
For the development of right understanding we do not need to go to a quiet
place. We may die before we reach that place. Realities such as seeing,
hearing and thinking are the same no matter where we are. All day long
dhammas appear through the five sense-doors and through the mind-door, one
at a time. Through the eyes visible object is experienced, through the ears
sound, through the nose odour, through the tongue flavour, through the
bodysense hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. The realities
that appear exhibit their own characteristics. They arise dependent on many
different conditions and nobody can cause their arising. Through
satipatthåna one will understand the nature of anattå of realities.
During the sessions we discussed samatha and vipassanå. Both of them are
ways of mental development, bhåvana, and they cannot be developed without
sati and paññå, sati-sampajañña. However, the method and aim of samatha and
vipassanå are different.
We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the
Buddha said to Cunda:

³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate,
Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction
to you.²

In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as contemplate.
The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains that there are
two meanings of jhåna:
contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna),
and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhanúpanijjhåna), beginning
with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields
(åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha
and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.²

****
Nina.
	
33557

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon May 31, 2004 9:44pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English)

Hi Larry,

op 31-05-2004 20:23 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...:

> I think the commentator may have misunderstood this passage:
N: I am always very, very hesitant to say this ;-))
L: "'The visible-data base, the sound base, the odour base, the flavour
> base, the tangible-data base, the space element, the water element,
> lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter,
> growth of matter, continuity of matter, and physical food--these
> states are consciousness-originated' (cf. Dhs. 667)"
> 
> These rupas are not consciousness originated but rather mind-door
> perceived rupas. 
N: Two different matters: what is originated and what is perceived through
mind-door.
We have to think of the four factors that originate. Here, lightness etc are
only originated by citta, temperature and nutrition, as we learnt before.
The others of this list above are originated by all four. Remember: visible
object or colour of rupas of the body is originated by all four.
Then see the discussion as to growth and continuity, that I rendered. These,
in a sense can, be produced by all four if we think of the moment the four
factors set them in motion.
Nina.
	
33558

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 0:25am
Subject: Re: Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
> Hi Howard,
<snip> 
> The fetters map into the akusala cittas as follows:
> - Ignorance: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
> - Restlessness: eliminated by Arahant
> - Greed: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
> - Wrong View: eliminated by Sotapanna
> - Conceit: eliminated by Arahant
> - Hatred: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
> - Jealousy: eliminated by Sotapanna
> - Selfishness: eliminated by Sotapanna
> - Doubt: eliminated by Sotapanna
> 
> 
> The source in the Visuddhimagga.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

Friend Rob M (and Howard),

I am not sure that the Visuddhimagga is correct about this matter of 
jealousy being completely eliminated at the Sotapanna stage. Is 
this information found in a sutta? From my understanding, the root 
of jealousy is desire and only an arahant has eliminated desire. 
For example, in DN 21 "Sakka's Questions", the Buddha explains to 
the king of the devas, Sakka, that the cause of all the hate and 
violence in the various world systems is jealousy and avarice. He 
further explains that jealousy and avarice are caused by liking and 
disliking; liking and disliking are caused by desire; desire is 
caused by thinking; thinking is caused by the tendency to mental 
proliferation; mental proliferation leads to random thinking which 
then leads to desire. The Buddha further explains that the only way 
to eliminate this sequence is to foster thinking which leads to 
wholesome mental states, not unwholesome mental states. 

I could be wrong but this implies to me that jealousy is eliminated 
only in the arahant. Sure, the Sotapanna may have less of a degree 
of jealousy, just as he/she has less of a degree of anger and hate, 
but I find it hard to believe that jealousy would be completely 
eliminated at the Sotapanna stage. What do you think?

Metta, James
	
33559

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:11am
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Ken (and Phil),

Most of my internet time these past few days was spent in looking for a 
good hotel to stay during a five day holiday starting tomorrow. So I am 
quite behind in my reading and will be even more so from now.

You said:
> That's a good point you make: If meditation is something we do 
> naturally, as part of our daily routine, does that preclude it from 
> being a "superstitious rite or ritual?" Is wrong view necessarily 
> involved? Many otherwise-hard-headed dsg people say it is OK; there 
> is not necessarily wrong view. But other forthright folk, Sukin for 
> one, say it is a sign of wrong view. (Hope I haven't got you wrong 
> there, Sukin.) 

No Ken, you haven't got me wrong. However I have made the 
suggestion to the effect that, if anyone was `meditating' as a daily 
activity but not connecting this with any idea that it was `practice' 
according to dhamma, then it was O.K. Then the person could have 
satipatthana during the meditation, instead of meditating to have 
satipatthana! ;-) So yes, the very idea of developing sati and panna by 
means of `formal practice' is in my opinion, wrong view. 

Previously, I thought that someone might have the accumulations for 
jhana and doing so he could at the same time develop vipassana. But 
later I came to question the `self view' possibly involved in such ideas. A 
person may practice jhana [though it is unlikely that a layperson today 
could do it], however if his understanding of the Buddha's teaching on 
satipatthana is indeed correct, then there is no need to distinguish jhana 
practice from normal everyday activity with regard to this anyway. If 
one did, then it seems that he is still tying jhana practice to vipassana in 
a way suggesting that without the former, the latter is unlikely to be 
fruitful. This *is* wrong view, because there is no direct connection 
between jhana and any kind of concentration practice with the 
development of vipassana panna. 

Besides, from theory we know that if there is no `sati', then the citta is 
akusala, and this accumulates. We learn about how wrong view evolves 
from atta view and how every time there is atta sanna and no sati, then 
self view is possibly being encouraged. When this atta sanna as 
in `sitting in a particular *posture*', `shutting *one's* 
eyes', `concentrating on *one's* nostril or belly', `mentally *scanning 
one's body from head to toe*', *labeling*, is being encouraged all the 
time (after all one must keep on `intending' to maintain such physical 
actions during the time that the so called practice is taking place), then 
how can Rt. View arise? But `self' does fool itself all the time, and would 
even use the Teachings wrongly quoting out of context to justify doing 
what it is doing. I guess this is why the Teachings caution us about 
the `Cheating Dhammas' and about walking the `Wrong Path'. There is 
in fact a Sutta, `Patipada Sutta' (I can't find it), where supposedly, even 
all jhana practice is considered `wrong path'. 

> I go along with Sukin. If meditation is something more than mental 
> relaxation, then it must entail the view of a controlling self. 
> Sorry Phil, we have spoken. :-)

And yet, when we realize that the cause of any mental exhaustion is 
one's own akusala cittas and these are known more, then even 
this `relaxation' will be seen as an act of accumulating more akusala 
(lobha) and therefore not to be encouraged. ;-) 

Metta,
Sukin
	
33560

From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula <sukinder@k...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:11am
Subject: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Hi Nina (and Howard),

> N: This is very complex and we would have to study each sutta. The 
one you
> quoted could refer to someone who was skilled in jhana and then 
used jhana
> as proximate cause for insight. I find these suttas difficult, I am 
inclined
> to think: concentration under what heading or according to what 
method of
> teaching. When I read: develop concentration, and that it leads to 
realizing
> the four noble Truths I am inclined to read this with vipassana panna
> implied. I can ask Sukin to bring it up in Bgk.

I will try to remember to ask. However, this last Saturday, I was curious 
why jhana was considered `Samma Samadhi' and not just `Kusala' or 
perhaps `Mahakusala' Samadhi? K. Sujin said that it was because jhana 
was a *development* of a kind of panna from samatha. I gather that it 
involves seeing the danger in `sense objects' and recognizing 
increasingly more subtle akusala!? 

This may or may not be relevant to your discussion, I am not sure.

Metta,
Sukin.
	
33561

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:33am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi Howard, James, Nina, RobM & All,

With regard to the eradication of the fetters (samyojana), I think there
is a wealth of detail in the Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the
Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel
publication. It’s now on line too:
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/mn-7.htm

Let me just selectively run through and quote a few relevant passages (but
recommend reading all the sutta and notes - too long for this post). 

I hope others provide other suttas with more detail for you too.
*****
>1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in
Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks
thus: "Monks." -- "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said
this: 

2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in
some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take
the dye badly and be impure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth
was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,[1] an unhappy
destination [in a future existence] may be expected. 

"Monks, suppose a cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in
some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take
the dye well and be pure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth was
clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination [in
a future existence] may be expected. 

3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?[2] (1) Covetousness
and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a
defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4)
hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8)
jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12)
presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity...(16)
negligence is a defilement of the mind.[3] 

4. "Knowing, monks, covetousness and unrighteous greed to be a defilement
of the mind, the monk abandons them.[4] Knowing ill will to be a
defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing anger to be a defilement
of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hostility to be a defilement of the
mind, he abandons it. Knowing denigration to be a defilement of the mind,
he abandons it. Knowing domineering to be a defilement of the mind, he
abandons it. Knowing envy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it.
Knowing jealousy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing
hypocrisy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing fraud to
be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing obstinacy to be a
defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing presumption to be a
defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing conceit to be a defilement
of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing arrogance to be a defilement of the
mind, he abandons it. Knowing vanity to be a defilement of the mind, he
abandons it. Knowing negligence to be a defilement of the mind, he
abandons it. 

5. "When in the monk who thus knows that covetousness and unrighteous
greed are a defilement of the mind, this covetousness and unrighteous
greed have been abandoned; when in him who thus knows that ill will is a
defilement of the mind, this ill will has been abandoned;...when in him
who thus knows that negligence is a defilement of the mind, this
negligence has been abandoned -- [5] 

6. -- he thereupon gains unwavering confidence in the Buddha[6] thus:
'Thus indeed is the Blessed One: he is accomplished, fully enlightened,
endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, knower of the
worlds, the incomparable guide of men who are tractable, the teacher of
gods and men, enlightened and blessed.' <
<.....>
>Notes
<....>
3. The Sixteen Defilements of Mind: 

1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed 
2. byapada, ill will 
3. kodha, anger 
4. upanaha, hostility or malice 
5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt 
6. palasa, domineering or presumption 
7. issa, envy 
8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness 
9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit 
10. satheyya, fraud 
11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy 
12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity 
13. mana, conceit 
14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness 
15. mada, vanity or pride 
16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads to
lack of consideration. 
The defilements (3) to (16) appear frequently as a group in the
discourses, e.g., in Majjh. 3; while in Majjh. 8 (reproduced in this
publication) No. 15 is omitted. A list of seventeen defilements appears
regularly in each last discourse of Books 3 to 11 of the Anguttara Nikaya,
which carry the title Ragapeyyala, the Repetitive Text on Greed (etc.). In
these texts of the Anguttara Nikaya, the first two defilements in the
above list are called greed (lobha) and hate (dosa), to which delusion
(moha) is added; all the fourteen other defilements are identical with the
above list. [Go back] 

4. <...>
According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by
the noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order: 

"By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5)
denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10)
fraud. 

"By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger,
(4) malice, (16) negligence. 

"By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and
unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14)
arrogance, (15) vanity." 
If, in the last group of terms, covetousness is taken in a restricted
sense as referring only to the craving for the five sense objects, it is
finally abandoned by the path of Non-returning; and this is according to
Comy. the meaning intended here. All greed, however, including the
hankering after fine material and immaterial existence, is eradicated only
on the path of Arahatship; hence the classification under the latter in
the list above. 

Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is
mentioned, reference is to the Non-returner (anagami); for also in the
case of defilements overcome on Stream-entry (see above), the states of
mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of
Non-returning. [Go back] 

5. Comy. emphasizes the connection of this paragraph with the following,
saying that the statements on each of the sixteen defilements should be
connected with the next' paragraphs, e.g., "when in him...ill will has
been abandoned, he thereupon gains unwavering confidence..." Hence the
grammatical construction of the original Pali passage -- though rather
awkward in English -- has been retained in this translation. 

The disciple's direct experience of being freed of this or that defilement
becomes for him a living test of his former still imperfectly proven trust
in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Now this trust has become a firm
conviction, an unshakable confidence, based on experience. [Go back] 

6. "Unwavering confidence" (aveccappasada). Comy.: "unshakable and
immutable trust." Confidence of that nature is not attained before
Stream-entry because only at that stage is the fetter of sceptical doubt
(vicikiccha-samyojana) finally eliminated. Unwavering confidence in the
Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are three of four characteristic qualities of a
Stream-winner (sotapaññassa angani); the fourth is unbroken morality,
which may be taken to be implied in Sec. 9 of our discourse referring to
the relinquishment of the defilements. [Go back] <
*****
Metta,

Sarah
p.s You might like to also look at these links from Nyantiloka’s
dictionary:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samyojana.htm
======


	
33562

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 2:33am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

Dear Htoo,

--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
> PS: I may possibly stay domant for a while.
.....
S: I’m glad the conditions brought another result;-)

I’ve greatly appreciated your Dhamma Thread and the way you’ve explained
and shared the Abhidhamma in these posts like in 008 on kamma, vipaka and
kiriya cittas. There are one or two topics I may come back to later if I
have time. Anumodana!

Metta,

Sarah 

As an after-thought and a quick look through, I’d like to add a couple of
comments as you’ve mentioned before you like to have them. I’m a little
behind with my reading so there may be more later.

You may wish to review this paragraph from Starting the Journey to Nibbana
01:
H: >Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute peace
as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go into that
state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta cuti citta. All
arahats passed this gate. 
This gate is the boundry. Arahats all go through their last series of
cittas called arahatta phala citta.<

I also found the passage Jon picked up on rather misleading, but I’ll
leave that to the two of you to sort out;-). 

Oh, one more in Dhamma threads 012, 013 and 014 on bhavanga and vithi
cittas...
012 “All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga)”[S:???] 
013 “In a given time there is no sense impression or no object
citta.”[S:???]
014 “....when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or sense
impression has appeared”[S:???]

[S: it sounds like bhavanga cittas don’t have an arammana].

014 “Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. In
between is filled with all bhavanga cittas”.[S:???]
“But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi citta”. [I
think you might stress many different conditions]

========================


	
33563

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 3:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 80, no 1 (English)

Dear Nina,

Thank you so much for providing all this detail. I need time to absorb it
and look at references too.

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: > Tiika Vis 80, no 1
(English)
> 
> Vis.80
> 80. But 'matter as characteristic' is called 'not born of anything'.
> Why? Because there is no arising of arising, and the other two are the
> mere maturing and breakup of what has arisen. 
<...>
S: I’m thinking that this and your following comments and references are
of relevance to the discussion on ‘birth’ as dukkha and the comments I
gave from the Sammohavinodani. 
....
> 
> Remarks:
> As we have seen there are four rupas as characteristics: origination,
> continuity, decay and impermanence. These are inherent in all groups of
> rupa. Since they are
> characteristics, they are not originated by any of the four causes that
> originate rupas. Strictly speaking, there is no arising of arising,
> however,
> from another viewpoint it can be said (it is allowable as the Vis text
> states) that when kamma and the other three causes originate rupas, they
> also cause the arising (or birth) of the characteristics of origination
> and
> continuity which are bound up with the other rupas in a group.
....
S: In the Sammohavinodani 452 it gives many meanings of jaati (birth) in
different contexts. In the context of the First Noble Truth, it gives:

“Here, however, this is appropriate in respect of the aggregates of first
production with their modes [vikaaresu]. Therefore jaati is by way of
being born; here it is the peculiarity of their nature. Sa~njaati ‘coming
to birth’ is by the act of coming to birth.”

I’m inclined to think the Vism and Tika references here may be relevant,
though of course they are only referring to the vikaara rupas here as
characteristics of rupas. As it says, ‘Strictly speaking, there is no
arising of arising’.

I don’t wish to push this too far......
.....
<...>
S: The comments from the other texts were very interesting:
.....
> We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 243): <Therefore the
> ancients have said:
> ŒIn the text [of the Abhidhamma] the generation of birth from some cause
> is
> [stated] from a particular standpoint (pariyaayato); since in these
> three
> [birth, decay, impermanence] the intrinsic nature of conditioned things
> is
> [found], they have been said to be conditioned.1 > It is also stated in
> the
> Expositor that birth, decay and death happen bound up with the bases
> (the
> rupas of solidity, the other four great Elements and the other rupas).
> When
> these rupas appear, birth, decay and death are revealed.
> From these discussions we learn that there are different methods of
> explanation (pariyaaya).
<...>
> Tiika Vis 80;
> As to the expression, matter as characteristic is called 3not born from
> anything2, because they are not arisen from any cause...
> How should it be understood that materiality as characteristic does not
> arise? 
> Because it is without that characteristic.
> N: It is itself the characteristic of arising etc. and therefore it does
> not
> have the characteristic of arising.
> In the texts about origination of visible object and so on, the
> characteristics of birth etc. are to be found, but not (the
> characteristics
> of) birth (arising) etc. itself.
> Therefore, it should be known that arising etc, does not arise, etc. ..
> 
> N: Origination, being a characteristic, does not arise.
....
S: there is a real wealth of detail in the Tiika passages here. Extremely
profound and precious imho;-).

Metta and anumodana.

Sarah
p.s. You mentioned a short trip - I hope you have good weather and a nice
break from the computer.
=================


	
33564

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 0:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi, Nina -

In a message dated 6/1/04 1:31:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> Hi Howard,
> Rob M gave the list just now. Dhammasangani § 1113, among the ten fetters or
> samyojanas. For sutta references, I have to look all over, but no time now.
> Nina
> 
======================
I can well understand that this wouldn't be readily available - the 
suttas are many and dispersed. Thank you for giving the Dhammasangani reference. 

Inasmuch as the commentaries are not Buddha word, and inasmuch as I 
don't have full certainty that the Abhidhamma Pitaka isn't a later, synoptic, 
systematic codification of the Buddhadhamma, when I come across something that 
seems to go beyond what is in the suttas, and not just in explanatory detail 
but in the items included, I am inclined to seek sutta sources for it or to seek 
an explanation of the reasoning that led to it. This is why I originally 
asked for sutta references and why I pushed a bit more in that direction after 
Rob's reply.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33565

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 0:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi, Sarah (and Rob, Nina, James, and all) -

Thank you for the wealth of information provided in the following post 
of yours. I do have a couple negative comments on the material as regards my 
specific question. 
One of these is that the sutta itself says nothing about ariyan stages 
- only the commentary does. 
Secondly, the commentary apparently contradicts itself: 
One finds "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are 
abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, 
(10) fraud." 
On the other hand, one also finds "Comy. repeatedly stresses that 
wherever in our text "abandoning" is mentioned, reference is to the Non-returner 
(anagami); for also in the case of defilements overcome on Stream-entry (see 
above), the states of
mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of 
Non-returning." And, indeed the sutta speaks of *abandoning* jealousy. 
So, I don't see how this material settles the issue. Also, in 
Nyanatiloka's dictionary, as referenced by you, I found the following:
_________________________
(I) Through the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga) one 'becomes' free 
(whereas in realizing the fruition, one 'is' free) from the first 3 fetters (
samyojana) which bind beings to existence in the sensuous sphere, to wit: 

(1) personality-belief (sakkáya-ditthi; s. ditthi), 
(2) skeptical doubt (vicikicchá), 
(3) attachment to mere rules and rituals (sÃlabbata-parámása; s. upádána). 

(II) Through the path of Once-return (sakadágámi-magga) one becomes nearly 
free from the 4th and 5th fetters, to wit: 
(4) sensuous craving (káma-cchanda = káma-rága; s. rága), 
(5) ill-will (vyápáda = dosa, s. múla). 
--------------------------------------------
Inasmuch as kama-raga and dosa are not even fully abandoned at the 
stage of non-returning, it strikes me as implausible that jealousy, and obvious 
child of both sensuous craving and ill will, and probably a variety of ill will 
itself, is normally vanquished in a stream enterer.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 6/1/04 4:34:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard, James, Nina, RobM &All,
> 
> With regard to the eradication of the fetters (samyojana), I think there
> is a wealth of detail in the Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the
> Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel
> publication. It’s now on line too:
> http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/mn-7.htm
> 
> Let me just selectively run through and quote a few relevant passages (but
> recommend reading all the sutta and notes - too long for this post). 
> 
> I hope others provide other suttas with more detail for you too.
> *****
> >1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in
> Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks
> thus: "Monks." -- "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said
> this: 
> 
> 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in
> some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take
> the dye badly and be impure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth
> was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,[1] an unhappy
> destination [in a future existence] may be expected. 
> 
> "Monks, suppose a cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in
> some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take
> the dye well and be pure in colour. And why is that? Because the cloth was
> clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination [in
> a future existence] may be expected. 
> 
> 3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?[2] (1) Covetousness
> and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a
> defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4)
> hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8)
> jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12)
> presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity...(16)
> negligence is a defilement of the mind.[3] 
> 
> 4. "Knowing, monks, covetousness and unrighteous greed to be a defilement
> of the mind, the monk abandons them.[4] Knowing ill will to be a
> defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing anger to be a defilement
> of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hostility to be a defilement of the
> mind, he abandons it. Knowing denigration to be a defilement of the mind,
> he abandons it. Knowing domineering to be a defilement of the mind, he
> abandons it. Knowing envy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it.
> Knowing jealousy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing
> hypocrisy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing fraud to
> be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing obstinacy to be a
> defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing presumption to be a
> defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing conceit to be a defilement
> of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing arrogance to be a defilement of the
> mind, he abandons it. Knowing vanity to be a defilement of the mind, he
> abandons it. Knowing negligence to be a defilement of the mind, he
> abandons it. 
> 
> 5. "When in the monk who thus knows that covetousness and unrighteous
> greed are a defilement of the mind, this covetousness and unrighteous
> greed have been abandoned; when in him who thus knows that ill will is a
> defilement of the mind, this ill will has been abandoned;...when in him
> who thus knows that negligence is a defilement of the mind, this
> negligence has been abandoned -- [5] 
> 
> 6. -- he thereupon gains unwavering confidence in the Buddha[6] thus:
> 'Thus indeed is the Blessed One: he is accomplished, fully enlightened,
> endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, knower of the
> worlds, the incomparable guide of men who are tractable, the teacher of
> gods and men, enlightened and blessed.' <
> <.....>
> >Notes
> <....>
> 
> 3. The Sixteen Defilements of Mind: 
> 
> 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed 
> 2. byapada, ill will 
> 3. kodha, anger 
> 4. upanaha, hostility or malice 
> 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt 
> 6. palasa, domineering or presumption 
> 7. issa, envy 
> 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness 
> 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit 
> 10. satheyya, fraud 
> 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy 
> 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity 
> 13. mana, conceit 
> 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness 
> 15. mada, vanity or pride 
> 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads to
> lack of consideration. 
> The defilements (3) to (16) appear frequently as a group in the
> discourses, e.g., in Majjh. 3; while in Majjh. 8 (reproduced in this
> publication) No. 15 is omitted. A list of seventeen defilements appears
> regularly in each last discourse of Books 3 to 11 of the Anguttara Nikaya,
> which carry the title Ragapeyyala, the Repetitive Text on Greed (etc.). In
> these texts of the Anguttara Nikaya, the first two defilements in the
> above list are called greed (lobha) and hate (dosa), to which delusion
> (moha) is added; all the fourteen other defilements are identical with the
> above list. [Go back] 
> 
> 4. <...>
> According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by
> the noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order: 
> 
> "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5)
> denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10)
> fraud. 
> 
> "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger,
> (4) malice, (16) negligence. 
> 
> "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and
> unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14)
> arrogance, (15) vanity." 
> If, in the last group of terms, covetousness is taken in a restricted
> sense as referring only to the craving for the five sense objects, it is
> finally abandoned by the path of Non-returning; and this is according to
> Comy. the meaning intended here. All greed, however, including the
> hankering after fine material and immaterial existence, is eradicated only
> on the path of Arahatship; hence the classification under the latter in
> the list above. 
> 
> Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is
> mentioned, reference is to the Non-returner (anagami); for also in the
> case of defilements overcome on Stream-entry (see above), the states of
> mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of
> Non-returning. [Go back] 
> 
> 5. Comy. emphasizes the connection of this paragraph with the following,
> saying that the statements on each of the sixteen defilements should be
> connected with the next' paragraphs, e.g., "when in him...ill will has
> been abandoned, he thereupon gains unwavering confidence..." Hence the
> grammatical construction of the original Pali passage -- though rather
> awkward in English -- has been retained in this translation. 
> 
> The disciple's direct experience of being freed of this or that defilement
> becomes for him a living test of his former still imperfectly proven trust
> in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Now this trust has become a firm
> conviction, an unshakable confidence, based on experience. [Go back] 
> 
> 6. "Unwavering confidence" (aveccappasada). Comy.: "unshakable and
> immutable trust." Confidence of that nature is not attained before
> Stream-entry because only at that stage is the fetter of sceptical doubt
> (vicikiccha-samyojana) finally eliminated. Unwavering confidence in the
> Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are three of four characteristic qualities of a
> Stream-winner (sotapaññassa angani); the fourth is unbroken morality,
> which may be taken to be implied in Sec. 9 of our discourse referring to
> the relinquishment of the defilements. [Go back] <
> *****
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33566

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 1:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi again, Sarah -

Typo correction: The first "and" below should be "an". Sorry.



> jealousy, and obvious child of both sensuous craving and ill will
^


With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33567

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 7:40am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

Dear Sarah,

Thanks for your comments. I may reply my own message when the problem 
areas arise as you pointed out or if you reply that particular 
message, I may be able to sort the problems out. Here will be some 
responses. Thanks again for your kind support.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
Dear Htoo,

>--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
>PS: I may possibly stay domant for a while.
..............
S: I'm glad the conditions brought another result;-)

You may wish to review this paragraph from Starting the Journey to 
Nibbana 01:

H:Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute 
peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go 
into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta 
cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. 
Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta 
phala citta.

S:I also found the passage Jon picked up on rather misleading, but 
I'll leave that to the two of you to sort out;-). 

Oh, one more in Dhamma threads 012, 013 and 014 on bhavanga and vithi
cittas...

012 "All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga)"[S:???]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I will go to 012. Any citta is part of life. But when 
vithicittas arise, they become different from original character that 
is they take different object while bhavanga cittas take the same 
object all the time. In a satta ( satta pannatta ), all cittas at any 
given time is a part of life ( life is a pannatta ). But only 
bhavanga cittas are called bhavangacittas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
013 "In a given time there is no sense impression or no object
citta."[S:???]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I may need to go to 013. If existing citta does not have the 
condition for its staying, it passes away and bhavanga citta has to 
arise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
014 "....when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or
sense
impression has appeared"[S:???]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I think pictorial demonstration would help here. I may go to 014
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[S: it sounds like bhavanga cittas don't have an arammana].
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: No. all cittas do have an arammana. But the distinction is that 
bhavanga cittas always take past object while vithi citta may take 
any object depending on situations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
014 "Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. 
In
between is filled with all bhavanga cittas".[S:???]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Am I wrong?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi
citta". 
[I think you might stress many different conditions]
========================
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I think there might need some more elaboration on the matter.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33568

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 3:56am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi again, Sarah -

One more self-correction:

In a message dated 6/1/04 8:25:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... 
writes:

> Inasmuch as kama-raga and dosa are not even fully abandoned at the 
> stage of non-returning
> 
====================
I meant to say "once-returning", not "non-returning".

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33569

From: yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 8:49am
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Hi Sarah,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Firstly, thank you very much for providing this sutta - just what I 
was
> looking for. We had a detailed discussion on it ages ago - maybe 
before
> escribe!
> 
> --- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: 
> > [1]
> > Anguttara Nikaya IV.42
> > Pañha Sutta
> > Questions
> > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> > For free distribution only. 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > -----------
> > "There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? 
There 
> > are questions that should be answered categorically 
> > [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that 
> > should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer 
[defining 
> > or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be 
> > answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should 
be 
> > put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions." 
> ****
> S: Note that this sutta refers to the various methods of reply.
> `Categorical' refers to one form of possible answer, not to the 
questions.



Yes, Sarah, you are right about that. It was a mistake in my part.



[snip] 
> Thank you again for helping me to consider and reflect so often.



Thank you too.



> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah

Metta,
Victor
	
33570

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 7:57am
Subject: Re: Heart thing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:= 

> Hi All,
> 
> My lurker friend replied off-list and seemed satisfied with my 
> response below. He then asked "Now, why do cittas have to have 
> physical support? Can't they just arise on the base of conditions 
> without any rupa arround?"

Hi Rob, thank you for your ansvers. 
Hope you don't mind me asking you some more.

> 
> My answer is:
> 
> In the immaterial planes of existence (arupa-loka), there is no 
> physical base of support for the cittas. It would therefore seem that 
> the need for a physical base is a characteristic of the plane of 
> existence rather than a characterisitic of cittas themselves. 
> 
> Arupavacara cittas (formless jhana mental states; very high 
> meditative states) can arise in both the arupa-loka and in the kama-
> loka (sensous world where humans reside). When these mental states 
> arise in arupa-loka, they do not require a physical base but when the 
> same mental states arise in kama-loka, they require a physical base.
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
> 

So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one?

> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > A lurker sent me the following message off-list. I am choosing to 
> > reply here.
> > 
> > =====
> > 
> > Hi Rob :)
> > 
> > in few places, seems like all of them in thai forest tradition
> > there is something about heart.
> > 
> > "The Ballad of Liberation from the Khandhas"
> > by Phra Bhuridatto (Mun)Wat Srapathum [Bangkok]
> > states:
> > [...]
> > "What runs?"
> > "What runs quickly is viññana,
> > movements walking in a row,
> > one after another. Not doubting that saññas are right,
> > the heart gets caught up in the running back & forth.
> > Saññas grab hold of things outside
> > and pull them in to fool the mind,
> > Making it think in confusion & go out searching,
> > wandering astray.
> > They fool it with various dhammas,
> > like a mirage."
> > "What gains total release from the five khandhas?"
> > "The heart, of course, & the heart alone.
> > It doesn't grasp or get entangled.
> > No more poison of possessiveness,
> >     no more delusion,
> >     it stands alone.
> > No saññas can fool it into following along
> > behind them."
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > and now, in your EXCELENT text, 
> > 
> > [...]At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 
> vipaka 
> > citta
> > s conditions rupa through:
> > - Conascence condition.
> > - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa).[...]
> > 
> > would you please tell me what this heart thing is?
> > 
> > =====
> > 
> > My reply is as follows:
> > 
> > You wrote, "seems like all of them in thai forest tradition". I 
> > disagree. "Heart" is a very important concept in many Mahayana 
> > traditions (Prajnaparamita Heart Sutta is highly revered).
> > 
> > It would appear that in the first case, the author is using the 
> > term "heart" in a contemporary fashion to mean "mind", especially 
> the 
> > emotional aspect of "mind". For example, in conventional speech, 
> what 
> > do you mean when you say, "to follow my heart", "in my heart, I 
> > feel...", "I love you with all my heart"? In all cases, it is the 
> > emotional aspect of mind.
> > 
> > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" 
> (hadayavatthu). 
> > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive 
> Manual 
> > of Abhidhamma (p 144):
> > According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the 
> physical 
> > support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense 
> > consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their 
> > bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly 
> > mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, 
> > simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind 
> element 
> > and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, 
> > subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity 
> > situated within the physical heart. 
> > 
> > <end quote>
> > 
> > The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 111-
> > 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered 
> > in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear that 
> > sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the ancient 
> > Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all blood 
> > makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind was 
> > centred in the heart.
> > 
> > The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a common 
> > understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that 
> matter 
> > in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
> > element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the 
> author 
> > of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind but 
> > did not want to enter into that argument that would distract from 
> the 
> > point of the Abhidhamma. 
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Rob M :-)

Here is one more Rob:
The Buddagosa in Visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadayavatthu (heart ba= 
sis):
"there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seeds ( very small?) bed where hal= 
f a pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind e= 
lement and mind-consciousness element occur."
Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu
NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the
Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis
occurs with this blood as its support".

In the Introduction, Chapter 1 , 4. Odd Idea about Citta 
(Written by Thich Minh Thanh who is I think Zen master himself)

"It is interesting to notice the alien idea about citta that
happened to be in the proposition: 'citta is incorporeal and
resident in the cave of the heart'[18]. It is probably because of
a reference to this verse, in respect of the physical basis of
citta, that some section of the Theravâdins developed a cardio-centric
theory according to which the heart (hadayavatthu) is the locus of
mind and mental consciousness. These Theravâdins appear to be
alone in holding this theory and this is confirmed by the statement of
Yaúomitra[19] that it is confined only to the school of Sri Lankan
Buddhism. It is hard to find in the orthodox system of Buddhist
thought any place to which the idea can be incorporated properly."

So here we have it!
There is a place for our conciousness :)
Now did Buddha ever said this or anything of that sort?
This I would really like to know.

I remember reading The Blessed One said that on bases of sense organ
coniousness arises. So there is vinnanas based on what abidhamamma 
calls five pasada rupas and here we have a problem, as seems that 
all of the bahidda rupas are just speculations of late monks.
Or maybe I am getting it all wrong.

I do think, that I need to see real relation of nama and rupa,
and AFAICS mano has its rupa base and support in nervous system.
Therefore there is no vinnana if there is no rupa organ to support 
it.

Metta,
Agrios
	
33571

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi Rob, and all

Thanks Rob. "Anumodana" will fit very nicely in the musical version 
of that verse from the Dhammapada. Perhaps I will have an opportunity 
to sing it for you all someday, of course on a day when musical 
entertainment is not frowned upon too severely. (And Icaro can play 
some Motorhead.) Actually, I really do feel like singing some Dhamma 
songs these days, like Maria in Sound of Music, up on that hill. I 
can imagine a novice monk running from the monastery to sing, and 
getting in trouble with the senior monk. Hmm..."Favourite Things" 
could become a serious consideration of lobha. There could be a song 
entitled "Abhidhamma" sung to the tune of Edelweiss! Yes, I think 
there is potential here. The writer in me is squirming with desire! 

Seriously, still thinking about this verse: 

"Monk, bail out this boat.
> It will take you lightly when bailed.
> Having cut through passion, aversion, 
> you go from there to Unbinding."
> (XXV 369 - Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

It ties in nicely with the discussion going on about at which stage 
of enlightenment various defilements are weakened or removed. 
We cut through the binds, weaken them, but they are only removed at 
certain monumental path moments?
For me, "bail out" also brings the image of a hole through which 
akusala citta are rushing in faster than kusala cittas and the boat 
is sinking. But I read somewhere in one of Nina's books that kusala 
citta has a strength that makes it more likely than akusala to become 
khamma. Am I remembering that correctly? If so, there is hope to bail 
out the boat. There are fewer kusala cittas than akusala cittas, but 
the average kusala citta is stronger and more likely to become khamma 
than the average akusala citta? 

Metta,
Phil
	
33572

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Heart thing

Hi Agrios,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" 
<agriosinski@y...> wrote:
> Hi Rob, thank you for your ansvers. 
> Hope you don't mind me asking you some more.

=====

I am very happy that you have come out of "lurker land". Many on DSG 
will benefit.

=====
> 
> > 
> > My answer is:
> > 
> > In the immaterial planes of existence (arupa-loka), there is no 
> > physical base of support for the cittas. It would therefore seem 
that 
> > the need for a physical base is a characteristic of the plane of 
> > existence rather than a characterisitic of cittas themselves. 
> > 
> > Arupavacara cittas (formless jhana mental states; very high 
> > meditative states) can arise in both the arupa-loka and in the 
kama-
> > loka (sensous world where humans reside). When these mental 
states 
> > arise in arupa-loka, they do not require a physical base but when 
the 
> > same mental states arise in kama-loka, they require a physical 
base.
> 
> So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one?
> 
=====

Yes

=====
> > > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" 
> > (hadayavatthu). 
> > > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive 
> > Manual 
> > > of Abhidhamma (p 144):
> > > According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the 
> > physical 
> > > support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold 
sense 
> > > consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as 
their 
> > > bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not 
expressly 
> > > mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma 
Pitaka, 
> > > simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind 
> > element 
> > > and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, 
however, 
> > > subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a 
cavity 
> > > situated within the physical heart. 
> > > 
> > > <end quote>
> > > 
> > > The commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is Vism VIII 
111-
> > > 113. In classical India, it was believed that the mind was 
centered 
> > > in the heart (not the brain). This was because it was clear 
that 
> > > sense data moved about the body and the only thing that the 
ancient 
> > > Indians could see as moving in the body was blood. Since all 
blood 
> > > makes its way back to the heart, it was believed that the mind 
was 
> > > centred in the heart.
> > > 
> > > The fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip into a 
common 
> > > understanding of the day and avoided the issue by saying "that 
> > matter 
> > > in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
> > > element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me that the 
> > author 
> > > of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of the mind 
but 
> > > did not want to enter into that argument that would distract 
from 
> > the 
> > > point of the Abhidhamma. 
> > > 
> Here is one more Rob:
> The Buddagosa in Visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadayavatthu 
(heart ba=
> sis):
> "there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seeds ( very small?) bed 
where hal=
> f a pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support 
the mind e=
> lement and mind-consciousness element occur."
> Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu
> NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the
> Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis
> occurs with this blood as its support".
> 
> In the Introduction, Chapter 1 , 4. Odd Idea about Citta 
> (Written by Thich Minh Thanh who is I think Zen master himself)
> 
> "It is interesting to notice the alien idea about citta that
> happened to be in the proposition: 'citta is incorporeal and
> resident in the cave of the heart'[18]. It is probably because of
> a reference to this verse, in respect of the physical basis of
> citta, that some section of the Theravâdins developed a cardio-
centric
> theory according to which the heart (hadayavatthu) is the locus of
> mind and mental consciousness. These Theravâdins appear to be
> alone in holding this theory and this is confirmed by the statement 
of
> Yaúomitra[19] that it is confined only to the school of Sri Lankan
> Buddhism. It is hard to find in the orthodox system of Buddhist
> thought any place to which the idea can be incorporated properly."
> 
> So here we have it!
> There is a place for our conciousness :)
> Now did Buddha ever said this or anything of that sort?
> This I would really like to know.

=====

In a recent message Larry wrote, "I think the commentator may have 
misunderstood this passage...". Nina replied, "I am always very, very 
hesitant to say this ;-))"

Well, here is a case that everybody (even the most orthodox 
Theravadin) will agree that Buddhaghosa (the author of the 
Visuddhimagga and compiler of the commentaries) got it wrong. Bhikkhu 
Bodhi (ordained in the Sri Lankan tradition) clearly explained this 
in the quote above.

=====
> 
> I remember reading The Blessed One said that on bases of sense organ
> coniousness arises. So there is vinnanas based on what abidhamamma 
> calls five pasada rupas and here we have a problem, as seems that 
> all of the bahidda rupas are just speculations of late monks.
> Or maybe I am getting it all wrong.

=====

In the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), the Buddha said, "Dependent on the eye 
and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is 
contact."

In this context, "eye" is eye-sensitivity; the pasada rupa. In other 
words, the concept of pasada rupas is firmly grounded in the Suttas.

I assume that you mean "bahiddha rupas", external rupas (as opposed 
to pasada rupas). There has been lengthy discussion on DSG regarding 
external rupas. I believe that it was Jon who pointed out that there 
was a passage in the Suttas indicating that they posessed the three 
characteristics (tilakkhana). I think that Howard tends to take a 
purely phenomenological view that these external rupas do not exist. 
My position is that external rupas are outside the scope of the 
teaching as defined by the Buddha in the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31) 
and Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63): "[Things that are] beneficial, 
belonging to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to 
disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct 
knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." 

=====

> 
> I do think, that I need to see real relation of nama and rupa,
> and AFAICS mano has its rupa base and support in nervous system.
> Therefore there is no vinnana if there is no rupa organ to support 
> it.

=====

I would not be so quick to insert the concept of "nervous system"; 
you may end up making the same mistake that the ancient Indians made. 
I prefer that we stick with the canonical text, "that matter in 
dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element 
occur".

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33573

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> But I read somewhere in one of Nina's books that kusala 
> citta has a strength that makes it more likely than akusala to 
become 
> khamma. Am I remembering that correctly? 

Only time for a quick reply.

The strength of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the 
volition. Since we have so many accumulated tendencies that cause 
akusala, we are really "swimming against the stream" when we perform 
kusala. In addition, kusala is often done with pleasant feeling and 
this means accompanied by the cetasika piti (enthusiasm) which 
further strengthens the volition.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33574

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Heart thing

hi Rob,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
[...]
> > So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one?
> > 
> =====
> 
> Yes
> 
> =====

would you make for me some sort of list in which this kind
of nama_not_depending_on_rupa be related to its support?

the way I think is based on khandas concept and
all of them with exception of mano vinniana have physiological
support which can be reduced, traced down to four basic rupas.

[...]
> I would not be so quick to insert the concept of "nervous system"; 
> you may end up making the same mistake that the ancient Indians made. 
> I prefer that we stick with the canonical text, "that matter in 
> dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element 
> occur".

was nervous system known to Buddha and his contemporaries at all?
it works with khandas and as a sixth sense base has that all_other_senses scope as well. 
we can use "that matter" instead but I wanted to tell you
what is my way of thinking. 


> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

metta,
Agrios
	
33575

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 11:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi Agrios (& RobM),
--- agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> wrote: > --- In
dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...>
> wrote:=
> 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > My lurker friend replied off-list and seemed satisfied with my 
> > response below. He then asked "Now, why do cittas have to have 
> > physical support? Can't they just arise on the base of conditions 
> > without any rupa arround?"
> 
> Hi Rob, thank you for your ansvers. 
> Hope you don't mind me asking you some more.
....
S: I'm sure everyone is glad to read your discussion, so many thanks for
de-lurking and joining DSG. Thanks also to Rob for the encouragement. 

I'm glad you're finding it helpful, Agrios and you do us all a favour by
engaging Rob too.

Your name sounds Greek. If you'd like to share anything else about
yourself or where you live, pls do. You might also like to look at some of
the posts written on 'heart' under this subject in Useful Posts:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts

I think at least one or two were written by Rob.

Metta,

Sarah
====== 

33576

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 1, 2004 11:53pm
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Friend Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
What word would arise to capture the especially clear 
> feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his 
> teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to 
indicate 
> sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what it 
> was... 
> 
> Metta,
> Phil
> p.s Thank you, Nina, to all those responses to the questions I 
> asked yesterday. I will be looking at them tonight or tomorrow.


I also think an appropriate Pali word to consider in this case is: 
Buddhanussati. It is meditation on the qualities of the Buddha. 
This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing our 
confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper 
concentration and insight.

Metta, James
	

 	 

	
33577

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 1:05am
Subject: Re: Heart thing

Hi Agrios,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" 
<agriosinski@y...> wrote:
> hi Rob,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 
<rob.moult@j...> wrote:
> [...]
> > > So there is nama without rupa support and nama with one?
> > > 
> > =====
> > 
> > Yes
> > 
> > =====
> 
> would you make for me some sort of list in which this kind
> of nama_not_depending_on_rupa be related to its support?
> 
> the way I think is based on khandas concept and
> all of them with exception of mano vinniana have physiological
> support which can be reduced, traced down to four basic rupas.
> 
=====

I'm not sure that I understand the request. Are you asking for a list 
of the 24 conditions (paccaya) support the arising of citta in the 
arupa-loka plane of existence?

There are six ways in which mind can be a condition for mind:
- Proximity
- Contiguity
- Absense
- Disappearance
- Repetition (javana cittas only)
- Association

The arising of a mental state in this realm is conditioned by the 
previous mental state using the first five methods while the last is 
a self-referential condition linking the citta (consciousness, not 
mental state is meant here) and the various cetasikas.

There are five ways in which mind is a condition for mind-matter 
(mind-only in the arupa-loka plane):
- Root
- Jhana
- Path
- Kamma (both conascent and asynchronous)
- Result

Of course, concepts and mind-and-matter can be a condition for mind 
in any plane of existence through object condition and decisive 
support (oject decisive support, proximity decisive support and 
natural decisive support).

Agrios, was this really what you were asking or have I misunderstood 
you?

=====

> [...]
> > I would not be so quick to insert the concept of "nervous 
system"; 
> > you may end up making the same mistake that the ancient Indians 
made. 
> > I prefer that we stick with the canonical text, "that matter in 
> > dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
element 
> > occur".
> 
> was nervous system known to Buddha and his contemporaries at all?
> it works with khandas and as a sixth sense base has that 
all_other_senses scope as well. 
> we can use "that matter" instead but I wanted to tell you
> what is my way of thinking. 

=====

I would not want to try and second guess what the Buddha knew :-) 
According to AN IV.77, this can drive you crazy! (or crazier as the 
case may be :-)

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33578

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 1:33am
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi James

Thanks for the pointer.
I find myself meditating on the Buddha's qualities on recent 
mornings. There is a sense of devotion rising - I devote the day 
ahead to the Buddha, in some as yet unspecific way. (It used to be by 
seeing myself as an agent of Metta - Metta man! I have let that one 
go...)

J: > This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by 
increasing our 
> confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper 
> concentration and insight.

Ph: Of course, the qualities of the Buddha that I contemplate are 
still being generated from my own ideals, by self, but it is a good 
beginning. By studying Dhamma and discussing Dhamma with good friends 
like you, I will continue to come closer to understanding the true 
qualities of the Buddha. Embodying them? 


Metta,
Phil


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 
<buddhatrue@y...> wrote:
> Friend Phil,
> 
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> 
wrote:
> What word would arise to capture the especially clear 
> > feeling of gratitude I have this morning to the Buddha for his 
> > teaching? Maybe "Hallelulah" would do! Sarah used a word to 
> indicate 
> > sharing in the kusala of others joyfully, but now I forget what 
it 
> > was... 
> > 
> > Metta,
> > Phil
> > p.s Thank you, Nina, to all those responses to the questions I 
> > asked yesterday. I will be looking at them tonight or tomorrow.
> 
> 
> I also think an appropriate Pali word to consider in this case is: 
> Buddhanussati. It is meditation on the qualities of the Buddha. 
> This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing 
our 
> confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper 
> concentration and insight.
> 
> Metta, James
	
33579

From: gazita2002 <gazita2002@y...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 4:17am
Subject: Re: Phil: Sati

Dear Nina and Philip,

I am enjoying and benefiting from the interaction between you 
two. Would like to add something from my old notebook, that I have 
just read.


In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Philip,
> Very good you bring this up. I like to discuss this more later on.
> op 31-05-2004 03:56 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
> 
> > On p.116, you write "Sati in vipassana is mindful, non-forgetful 
of
> > ultimate realities, of the namas and rupas which appear. It is
> > *completely different* from what we mean by "mindfulness"
> > or "awareness" in conventional language."
> satipatthana, also dogs and jackals can have this sort of 
awareness. It does
> not shed the belief in a living being. In other words, he should 
know nama
> and rupa as they are.
> When you know that you are walking to the station, it is merely 
thinking,
> and usually thinking with lobha or wrong view: I walk.

[snip]
In Ch 16, I explain about the objects of
> mindfulness and that is important. Right understanding of the 
objects of
> mindfulness, nama and rupa. Intellectual understanding that is 
correct is
> the precursor of direct understanding. That is why A. Sujin says, 
it is
> better not to think so much of sati. Is there any understanding of 
dhamma
> now, she repeats. This is what we have to ask ourselves time and 
again.
> Conventional sati will not help to have more understanding of what 
the
> objects of satipatthana are. Of course, while walking you can 
reflect on
> those objects, or you can sit on a cushion (with coffee) and 
reflect on the
> Dhamma. Good to take time for reflection.
> Nina.

The intelligent, skillful way to live is the way of the Buddha. 
Firstly, by following the precepts - with right understanding - one 
can live wholesomely.
We do many absent-minded actions in the one day.

The most skillful thing we can do with our bodies is to use it to 
give useful things to other beings ,to give kindness when and 
wherever we can, to help other people when there are opportunities - 
not to let these opportunities fall by - bec then its too late.

If we mix up the skillful with the unskillful , how are we ever 
going to know which to develop and which to eradicate.

Social reform comes about by reforming oneself and once one 
realises that there is no self, then one's idea of social reform 
changes. One realizes that one is not as powerful as formerly 
believed.

Patience, courage and good cheer,
Azita.
	
33580

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 5:50am
Subject: Re: Heart thing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
[...]
> 
> Agrios, was this really what you were asking or have I misunderstood 
> you?
> 
> =====

this is exactly what I was interested in Rob, thank you again.
now when I read it, it seems way over my head. I would need some
time to study this answer and a whole thing.

[...]
> I would not want to try and second guess what the Buddha knew :-) 
> According to AN IV.77, this can drive you crazy! (or crazier as the 
> case may be :-)

Won't even look into it then :)

> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

Metta,
Agrios.
	
33581

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 6:08am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Agrios (& RobM),

Hi Sarah and All,


> S: I'm sure everyone is glad to read your discussion, so many thanks for
> de-lurking and joining DSG. Thanks also to Rob for the encouragement. 

I would call it enforcement.. ;)

[...]
> If you'd like to share anything else about
> yourself or where you live, pls do. You might also like to look at some of
> the posts written on 'heart' under this subject in Useful Posts:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts

my nick dates from old times when I use to have lot of discussions 
with Greeks on Christian forums. being Roman Catholic at the time.
I am of Polish descent, new happy Canadian.
this is my second or third year of studying Pali Cannon, and first 
year when I consider myself to be Therawada Buddhist.

thanks for your welcome message and link Sarah,

Metta,
Agrios
	
33582

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 7:32am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 024 )

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" 
<htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
> Dear Dhama Friends,
> 
> Citta always takes an object. 25 cittas take only kamma objects 
that 
> is sight, sound, smell, taste, or touch and their related things. 
> May you all be free from suffering.
> 
> With Unlimited Metta,
> 
> Htoo Naing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Dhamma Friends,

This is just to let you know that I may be staying dormant for a bout 
2 months even though I may appear intermittently whenever I have got 
time to discuss on dhamma issues.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33583

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 7:41am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi Agrios,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" 
<agriosinski@y...> wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
wrote:
> I am of Polish descent, new happy Canadian.

Canadian, eh? So am I, though I haven't lived in Canada for more than 
15 years, I was born in Toronto. I now live in Kuala Lumpur.

Looking forward to your next post!

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33584

From: Dhammaasoka <dasoka@n...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 7:49am
Subject: Questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma

Hi!

My friends and I have a few questions on Visuddhimagga and 
Abhidhamma which need help from you all to help to solve. 

1. What are the proximate cause of colour (visile data), sound, 
odour, flavour? Is the primary materiality their proximate cause?

2. What is the form of visible data? A light with single colour or 
image? Is the eye-consciousness arise at the eye or the heart base 
when visible data collide with the eye? If the object arises at both 
places, how does it happen? 

3. In what kind of condition that the object of registration 
(tadaarammana) is not the same object of the impulsion?

4. Does the mental factors of ahetu-vipaka-consciousness can only 
come from the indeterminate group?

5. Why the 8 kinds of kusala citta in the sense-sphere can 
produce `similar' results (8 mahakusala citta vipaka) and there is 
no `similar'results for the akusala citta in the sense-sphere?

6. Is the first seven cetasikas from the indeterminate group arise 
according to the sequence?

Really hope you all can help as we have try to look for help where 
we can reach but in vain.


With regards,
Lee
	
33585

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma

Hi Lee,

Welcome to DSG. Excellent questions! 

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" <dasoka@n...> 
wrote:
> My friends and I have a few questions on Visuddhimagga and 
> Abhidhamma which need help from you all to help to solve. 
> 
> 1. What are the proximate cause of colour (visile data), sound, 
> odour, flavour? Is the primary materiality their proximate cause?

=====

According to Vism XIV 54, proximate cause of visible data, sound, 
odour and flavour is the four great primaries.

=====
> 
> 2. What is the form of visible data? A light with single colour or 
> image? Is the eye-consciousness arise at the eye or the heart base 
> when visible data collide with the eye? If the object arises at 
both 
> places, how does it happen? 

=====

Visible data is what impinges upon eye-sensitivity. It is an image 
and could be considered to be like a single frame of a motion picture 
film. Eye-consciousness arises at the eye.

=====
> 
> 3. In what kind of condition that the object of registration 
> (tadaarammana) is not the same object of the impulsion?

=====

All cittas in the cognitive process (sense door process or mind door 
process take the same object. Therefore, the object of registration 
is always the same as the object of impulsion.

=====
> 
> 4. Does the mental factors of ahetu-vipaka-consciousness can only 
> come from the indeterminate group?

=====

The cetasikas arising with rootless vipaka cittas are as follows:
- The two sets of five sense-consciousness have only the seven 
universal cetasikas
- The remaining five rootless vipaka cittas (two receiving, three 
investigating) have the seven universal cetasikas plus initial 
application, sustained application plus determination. The 
investigating with pleasant feeling also has enthusiasm.

All of these cetasikas are from the indeterminate group.

=====
> 
> 5. Why the 8 kinds of kusala citta in the sense-sphere can 
> produce `similar' results (8 mahakusala citta vipaka) and there is 
> no `similar'results for the akusala citta in the sense-sphere?
> 
=====

The roles of the mahavipaka cittas are:
- Bhavanga for human / deva / brahma realms with two or three roots, 
pleasant / neutral feeling, prompted / unprompted
- Registration for desireable and very desireable rupas

All beings in the woeful planes have the same citta performing the 
role of bhavanaga (investigating consciousness with indifferent 
feeling). This same citta plays the role of registration for 
undesireable rupas.

I am not sure that this answers the question of "WHY" :-)

=====

> 6. Is the first seven cetasikas from the indeterminate group arise 
> according to the sequence?
> 
=====

Cetasiaks do not arise in a sequence, they all arise together, each 
performing their own function. The functions of the first seven 
cetasikas are:
- Contact: keeps connection with the object
- Feeling: experiences the flavour of the object
- Perception: marking the object (or recognizing a marked object)
- One-pointedness: concentrating on an object
- Attention: directing the focus of the concentration
- Volition: coordinating the functions of the cetasikas (also creates 
kamma in javana cittas)
- Life Faculty: supporting the life of the citta and conascent 
cetasikas

=====
> Really hope you all can help as we have try to look for help where 
> we can reach but in vain.

=====

I have given very short answers to very short questions. Let me know 
if there are any answers that you would like to have expanded upon. 
Clearly, you and your friends have been studying Abhidhamma for some 
time. Where are you and your friends located? Do you get together 
regularly to discuss Abhidhamma?

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33586

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 11:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

Dear Htoo,

--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> Thanks for your comments. I may reply my own message when the problem 
> areas arise as you pointed out or if you reply that particular 
> message, I may be able to sort the problems out. 
....
S: I apologise for doing it like this - I scribble down notes and then
it’s hard to find the originals. Pls feel free to move them back to the
thread if you prefer (or I will if we need the original context).
.....
> H:Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute 
> peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go 
> into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta 
> cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. 
> Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta 
> phala citta.
....
S: In the first part of this paragraph you seem to be talking about
parinibbana (at the death of the arahant) after arahatta cuti citta. You
refer to the last series of cittas as ‘arahatta phala citta’, but surely
arahatta phala citta refers to the cittas following arahatta magga citta
when arahantship is attained? Are you referring to phala samapatti or is
phala used in connection with the last series of cittas of an arhant? I’m
not aware of this. Pls clarify.
.... 
> 012 "All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga)"[S:???]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Htoo: I will go to 012. Any citta is part of life. But when 
> vithicittas arise, they become different from original character that 
> is they take different object while bhavanga cittas take the same 
> object all the time. In a satta ( satta pannatta ), all cittas at any 
> given time is a part of life ( life is a pannatta ). But only 
> bhavanga cittas are called bhavangacittas.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: OK. I had thought from what I quoted above that it was suggesting ‘all
vithi cittas’ were part of bhavanga. When there are vithi cittas, there
are no bhavanga cittas. One citta at a time.
....
> 013 "In a given time there is no sense impression or no object
> citta."[S:???]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Htoo: I may need to go to 013. If existing citta does not have the 
> condition for its staying, it passes away and bhavanga citta has to 
> arise.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: OK, of course as you agree, bhavanga citta also has its object. I think
you mean, no sense or mind door citta process.
....
> 014 "....when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or
> sense
> impression has appeared"[S:???]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Htoo: I think pictorial demonstration would help here. I may go to 014
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [S: it sounds like bhavanga cittas don't have an arammana].
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: Same as last one - just a misunderstanding I think. By arammana, you
are just referring to sense door arammana. You clarify this in later
posts.
....
> Htoo: No. all cittas do have an arammana. But the distinction is that 
> bhavanga cittas always take past object while vithi citta may take 
> any object depending on situations.
...
S: Ok.
....
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 014 "Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. 
> In
> between is filled with all bhavanga cittas".[S:???]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Htoo: Am I wrong?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: It makes it sound like there are only bhavanga cittas in between, but I
know you don’t mean this. You mean ‘filled with bhavanga cittas’ between
the sense and mind door processes.
....
> "But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi
> citta". 
> [I think you might stress many different conditions]
> ========================
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Htoo: I think there might need some more elaboration on the matter.
...
S: I think you are meaning that vipaka cittas (such as seeing and hearing)
depend on kamma (with supporting conditions). I may have misundestood it
before.

I think these were small points and misunderstandings. Perhaps with the
other one you were discussing with Jon too. You wrote about kusala and
akusala, but were referring to kusala and akusala vipaka as I recall (016
and 022). I think of kusala and akusala cittas only arising in the javana
process. I’ve now read your later posts in the series in which you clarify
most the points, so I know there is no real misunderstanding or
difference. I appreciate all the detail.

I particularly like your comment in JTN (02) and please continue to
encourage others with the Abhidhamma too;-):
*****
H: >'Svakkhato bhagavatadhammo'. The Buddha Gotama had preached many
dhamma on separate occasions.
All these dhammas are good at the start, good at the middle part and good
at the end and good
through out dhamma preaching. The Buddha preached for 45 years and there
had been about 14,636
days in 45 years including extra days for leap years. About 90 days were
in Deva realm preaching
all Abhidhamma to Devas and Brahmas with the aim giving a chance Himself
returning His gratitute
to His late mother who was reborn in Deva realm.

>There have been more than 10,000 suttas as there had been more than
10,000 days as His Buddhahood.
There are fewer suttas on the net than actual number exists. Suttas always
have the main reason
for preaching and the targeted satta/s. A single person may not need to
learn every sutta that
The Buddha preached. But dhammas are always good and any dhamma whether
suttas or abhidhamma
or vinaya all throw a good light on dhamma clearly.< 
****
Metta,

Sarah
p.s DT (016) you refer to ‘if avajjana citta is akusala...’, but of course
as you clarify in (017), avajjana cittas are (ahetuka) kiriya cittas, not
kusala or akusala. Your comments in (015) on the meaning of vajjana,eg
‘manodraravajjana citta arises and contemplates on the object....’ are
interesting. Of course this is just one citta, usually translated as
mind-door adverting consciousness. I’m not sure that we can use
contemplating or thinking in this connection.
======


	
33587

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 11:22pm
Subject: Re: Playing around with the past

Hi Andrew and Christine,

This brief conversation of yours must have touched a nerve; I keep 
thinking about it! 

--------------
A: > > When I first came to Buddhism, I was encouraged to develop 
metta and compassion towards "difficult" people by remembering that, 
in the past, they had shown great compassion towards me - indeed, 
they had even been my mother!
> >

C, quoting Mata Sutta: >
< . . .> 
"A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not 
easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your 
brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in 
the past is not easy to find.
>
-------------

That's the inevitable conclusion when we consider the time we have 
spent in samsara: there is nothing new under the sun. All the 
possible relationships we've had with all those people! Yuck, it 
doesn't bear thinking about. 

--------------------
M-sutta: > "Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, 
experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries – 
----------------------

The only thing, we know for sure that we haven't experienced, is 
Path Consciousness. 

------------------
"enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to 
become dispassionate, enough to be released."
>
-----------------

Knowing that there is a way out makes contemplation of infinite 
samsara quite liberating, doesn't it? It reminds me of people who 
have had `near death experiences' only more so. It makes all 
conventional values meaningless and yet it makes the present moment 
incredibly meaningful.

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33588

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 0:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi RobM & Agrios,

--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote:

> > > > In the second case, I am using the term "heart-base" 
> > > (hadayavatthu). 
> > > > Here is a relevant extract from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive 
> > > Manual 
> > > > of Abhidhamma (p 144):
...
The commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha adds a lot more detail by way
of explanation. Most of this has already been quoted from other texts such
as the Visuddhimagga and its Tiika. I highly recommend you read the
following posts (by Nina and RobK) which give this detail and discussion
on the topic. If you’re short of time, at least read the ones
highlighted;-):
*****
Heart Base (haddaya-vatthu)

5395, 5410, 28720, 28744, 28754, 28862, 28944, 28999, 29032, 29063, 29079,
29176, 30352 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28754
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28862
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28944
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28999
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29032
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29063
*****

> Well, here is a case that everybody (even the most orthodox 
> Theravadin) will agree that Buddhaghosa (the author of the 
> Visuddhimagga and compiler of the commentaries) got it wrong. Bhikkhu 
> Bodhi (ordained in the Sri Lankan tradition) clearly explained this 
> in the quote above.
....
S: Objection!!I don’t understand B.Bodhi to have suggested that
‘Buddhaghosa got it wrong.’ As I understand, in his comment he is giving a
very brief summary of the detailed commentary note which goes to pains to
show the reasons for ‘its reasonableness’. The orthodox Theravada
tradition (including the Buddhist Councils as I understand) includes the
Visuddhimagga and other ancient Pali commentaries. Buddhaghosa was a
compiler of ancient commentaries -- as you agree -- brought to Sri lanka
by the great arahant Mahinda. His compilation work was under the scrutiny
of the great arahants in Sri Lanka at the time. (See ‘Buddhaghosa’ in
U.P.)

Whenever I find any discrepancy or something which doesn’t make sense, it
always turns out to be my ignorance that’s the problem, not the ancient
commentators. I understand that this is a minority view;-). 
.... 
> I assume that you mean "bahiddha rupas", external rupas (as opposed 
> to pasada rupas). There has been lengthy discussion on DSG regarding 
> external rupas. I believe that it was Jon who pointed out that there 
> was a passage in the Suttas indicating that they posessed the three 
> characteristics (tilakkhana). I think that Howard tends to take a 
> purely phenomenological view that these external rupas do not exist. 
> My position is that external rupas are outside the scope of the 
> teaching as defined by the Buddha in the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31) 
> and Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63): "[Things that are] beneficial, 
> belonging to the fundamentals of the holy life, leading to 
> disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct 
> knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana." 
> 
> =====
S: On the other hand, I think it can lead to serious wrong view if we have
an idea that there are no external rupas. I think in another thread, Rob,
you were mentioning about visible object as conditioned by kamma and by
temperature. Of course, v.o. is one of the 8 inseparable rupas arising in
a kalapa conditioned by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. There is
v.o. in each kalapa in the body (conditioned by kamma and other causes)
and there is v.o. arising in each kalapa in external objects such as
rocks, conditioned by temperature alone. If there were not these external
rupas, then visible object could not be seen or known when we look out of
the window like I’m doing now.

Of course it’s also true to say (and I think this is the point you and
Howard make well), that without the experience of -- or seeing of -- a
visible object at any given time, there is no ‘world’ of seeing and no
visible object is experienced to be known. In this sense, unseen v.o. or
unexperienced heart-base for that matter, is not of major concern except
for clarifying any misconceptions we may have that could lead us down a
wrong path.

Comments welcome and I'll try not to interrupt your good discussions too
often!

Metta,

Sarah
p.s Rob, appreciating all your posts on conditions. Is it you or RobK who
is meeting Phil in Tokyo? Hope we hear a report.
======


	
33589

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 1:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedana

Hi RobM,

--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
> There can be either pleasant mental feeling or neutral mental feeling 
> with lobha-mula cittas. It seems to me that the deciding factor as to 
> which type of feeling arises would have to be natural decisive 
> support condition. It does not seem right to me that the intrinsic 
> quality (anittha / ittha / ati-ittha) of the object would play a role.
....
S: Many different conditions I think. For example, nat. decisive support
as you say from all previously accumulated feelings. Also, association &
mutuality by which the degree of lobha will condition the feeling and
vice-versa - all cetasikas conditioning each other and the citta like in
the soup mix. Then according to kamma condition, the sense experience
arose to be conditioned by a desirable/undesirable object and certainly
this will also condition the subsequent feeling in the javana process by
prenascence condition I think (rupas lasting 17 moments of citta).Oh, also
object decisive support condition whereby a particularly desirable object
conditions lobha and associated states. Many others I'm sure. 
.....

> This leaves me with the question as to why one set of conditions 
> would work with dosa-mula and moha-mula cittas whereas another set of 
> conditions would work with lobha-mula cittas.
> 
> Does anybody have any ideas?
....
I'm not sure that this is so apart from the fact that there can be neutral
or pleasant feeling with lobha. (Larry, example of lobha with neutral
feeling might be like just now, looking at the computer or telephone - we
don't realize there is lobha, but it's arising very, very often;-)).

Some conditions like the last one I gave (object decisive support) would
only apply to desirable objects - just the nature of the condition. In
other words, the realities are just the way they are by conditions.

I was interested in your detailed post to Larry on Paticcasamuppada and
citta process. You mention 'prominent cetasikas' for each citta in a
process. I'm wondering where this detail comes from, eg under
registration citta (tadarammana), you write 'perception is the prominent
cetasika in this citta supported by sustained application' and so on for
the others before it. Glad for any illumination;-).

Metta,

Sarah
p.s just found your other 'kamma' post. you were asking why 'sound is NOT
a kamma-born rupa'. Sound, unlike visible object, is not one of the 8
inseperable rupas in each kalapa in the body and only arises when
conditioned by citta (e.g. speech sounds) or temperature (e.g rocks
falling, thunder). It'll depend on kamma whether there is any experiencing
(hearing) of these sounds and whether desirable or undesirable ones are
heard at any instant;-).
=================


	
33590

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed Jun 2, 2004 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 6/3/04 3:18:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> S: On the other hand, I think it can lead to serious wrong view if we have
> an idea that there are no external rupas.
> 
-------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I say that depends on what one means by "external rupa". I take eye 
door to be "internal rupa" and visual object to be "external rupa". Both of 
these, however, are functional elements of experience. Some physical thing or 
event "out there" that is a *basis* for the visual object but is different from 
visual object is merely hypothesized and is never known but only inferred, 
whereas visual object is known. A "physical" thing or event "out there" independent 
of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no more 
than that. We cannot know that there is no such thing, nor can we know that 
there is. When pragmatism is adopted with regard to this, one gets my radical 
phenomenalist view that dismisses such a notion. Rob, as I understand him, does 
not dismiss it, but takes the point of view that the Dhamma doesn't deal with 
it, except when expressing itself via standard conventions. 
-------------------------------------------------
I think in another thread, Rob,> 
> you were mentioning about visible object as conditioned by kamma and by
> temperature. Of course, v.o. is one of the 8 inseparable rupas arising in
> a kalapa conditioned by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. There is
> v.o. in each kalapa in the body (conditioned by kamma and other causes)
> and there is v.o. arising in each kalapa in external objects such as
> rocks, conditioned by temperature alone. If there were not these external
> rupas, then visible object could not be seen or known when we look out of
> the window like I’m doing now.
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
That is just a presumption on your part, Sarah. The "body", and "the 
external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of at the 
moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". All are 
the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. To speak of 
kalapas as constituents of these is to make kalapas and their constituent rupas 
constituents of pa~n~natti. Whatever is knowably actual must be part of 
experience. Anything else is merely conceptually projected and hypothesized, as I 
see it.
------------------------------------------------

> 
> Of course it’s also true to say (and I think this is the point you and
> Howard make well), that without the experience of -- or seeing of -- a
> visible object at any given time, there is no ‘world’ of seeing and no
> visible object is experienced to be known. In this sense, unseen v.o. or
> unexperienced heart-base for that matter, is not of major concern except
> for clarifying any misconceptions we may have that could lead us down a
> wrong path.
> 
--------------------------------------------
Howard:
But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of major 
concern, but that these are merely hypothesized.
=======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33591

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 2:05am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

Hi Howard, (Phil & All),

--- upasaka@a... wrote:
>... the sutta itself says nothing about ariyan
> stages 
> - only the commentary does.
....
S: I thought you’d point this out;-).

I think we can piece together various extracts from suttas but in the
final analysis, as Nina pointed out, when there is right understanding
about kamma and vipaka (and no doubt at all for the sotapanna), there is
no cause for jealousy or stinginess and sympathetic joy becomes more and
more natural. 

A couple of sutta quotes for you, Howard:

SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl):

“When, Mahaanaama, one has gone for refuge to the Buddha,the Dhamma, and
the Sangha, one is then a lay follower.”

In other words, a sotapanna with full confidence in the Triple gem who
‘places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathaagata’. This is followed by
the usual description of how the lay follower is ‘accomplished in virtue’
by abstaining from the destruction of life and so on. We then read that
this lay follower is accomplished in generosity (and remember here, the
sutta is under the Sotapatti Samyutta):

“Here, Mahaanaama, a lay follower dwells at home with a mind devoid of the
stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in
relinquishment, one devoted to charity, delighting in giving and sharing.”

S:We also read how this lay follower is accomplished in wisdom:

“Here, Mahaanaama, a lay follower is wise, he possesses wisdom directed to
arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative, leading to the
complete destruction of suffering....”
*****
S: Also in M104, Saamagaama Sutta, we read about the six roots of disputes
in the Sangha as a result of a bhikkhu who ‘dwells disrespectful and
undeferential towards the Teacher, the Dhamma, and towards the Sangha, and
he does not fulfil the training.’ As we read in many suttas that a
sotapanna has full confidence in the Triple Gem, I take this to be a
description of one not yet a sotapanna, still lacking confidence.

It continues:

“Again, a bhikkhu is contemptuous and domineering...envious and
avaricious...deceitful and fraudulent...has evil wishes and wrong
view...adheres to his own views, holds on to them tenaciously, and
relinquishes them with difficulty. Such a bhikkhu dwells disrespectful
and undeferential towards the Teacher, towards the Dhamma, and towards the
Sangha, and he does not fulfil the training.”

These are the same qualities* eradicated by the sotapanna (as listed in
the sutta commentaries such as the one I gave on the ‘Simile of the Cloth’
and Abhidhamma) who has full confidence and respect for the Buddha, Dhamma
and Sangha.
.....
>S: One finds "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are 
> abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9)
> hypocrisy, 
> fraud." 
....
S: I understood your other comments . I think B.Bodhi’s notes on the ‘Sile
of the Cloth’ clarify. As Nina mentioned, jealousy for example, is
eradicated by the sotapanna, but it accompanies cittas rooted in aversion
and aversion in full is only eradicated by the anagami (once returner).
This is why aversion rather than jealousy is given as the far enemy of
sympathetic joy, though for us worldlings, this may well manifest as
jealousy. (Btw Phil, ‘greed as in attachment to the loved one’ does not
necessarily involve wrong view of self. Again, a sotapanna still has
plenty of attachment to loved ones, but no wrong view.)

Finally, I think that rather than just relying on the texts, we can begin
to prove for ourselves with the development of undestanding whether it’s
true that as confidence in the Triple Gem grows, as the laws of kamma and
vipaka become more evident, whether sympathetic joy becomes more natural
and stinginess, jealousy and the other states mentioned above are
gradually reduced by fully comprehending them for what they are. 

Metta.

Sarah
p.s *There are good descriptions of all these unwholesome qualities in the
commentaries. I’d be glad to share any if requested.

Here’s one on jealousy/envy for a start from Atthasalini 11, Bk1, 257:

“...It has the characteristic of envying, of not enduring the prosperity
of others, the function of taking no delight in such prosperity, the
manifestation of turning one’s face from such prosperity, the proximate
cause being such prosperity; and it should be regarded as a fetter.”
===================================

> sarahdhhk@y... writes:
> 
> > 
> > 3. The Sixteen Defilements of Mind: 
> > 
> > 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed 
> > 2. byapada, ill will 
> > 3. kodha, anger 
> > 4. upanaha, hostility or malice 
> > 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt 
> > 6. palasa, domineering or presumption 
> > 7. issa, envy 
> > 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness 
> > 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit 
> > 10. satheyya, fraud 
> > 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy 
> > 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity 
> > 13. mana, conceit 
> > 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness 
> > 15. mada, vanity or pride 
> > 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads
> to
> > lack of consideration. 
> > "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5)
> > denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy,
> (10)
> > fraud. 
> > 
> > "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3)
> anger,
> > (4) malice, (16) negligence. 
> > 
> > "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and
> > unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit,
> (14)
> > arrogance, (15) vanity." 
==========================

	
33592

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 2:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi James & Phil,

--- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> wrote: 
> I also think an appropriate Pali word to consider in this case is: 
> Buddhanussati. It is meditation on the qualities of the Buddha. 
> This kind of contemplation creates wholesome kamma by increasing our 
> confidence in the Buddha and prepares the mind for deeper 
> concentration and insight.
....
S: Excellent! 

Phil, I enjoyed your musical rendition of Dhammapada post ;-) Like James,
I appreciate all your posts and friendly, humourous style with keen
appreciation for the teachings. I'm sure your English classes are always
lively too.
....
P:> “...sitting on a cushion with a coffee (cheating!) as soon as I have
gotten up and taken a pee and done a few calesthenics.”

S: How about if you were sitting on a dining room chair or sitting on your
cushion with a snack or sitting on a cushion reading a DSG post or
swimming and reflecting on dhamma or getting dressed with moments of
awareness........(just testing the limits;-)). Today is some kind of moon
day and we had a more relaxed yoga class than usual (a tradition on these
days). Another student said to me afterwards: ‘wasn’t it nice to do more
meditation?’. I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder;-)
....
James, I thought your post on Sakka’s Questions, DN21 was a very good one
and your points are very interesting. Just a few comments, but no answers
here. Sakka is a sotapanna and he knows the Buddha’s answers are correct
(unlike those of other ascetics and brahmins). I think the underlying
emphasis perhaps is on the eradication of wrong view and wrong view
proliferating. It is this kind of attachment (desire) which leads to the
particular likes and dislikes resulting in jealousy and avarice/stinginess
(selfishness is not a good translation for macchariya imho) which leads to
hostility and battle as described in your post. There will still be anger
and hate as you say, but not as strongly for one without wrong view.

I’ve appreciate your post and as I say, these are just my reflections in
the light of what I’ve read and considered elsewhere;-)

Metta,

Sarah

p.s Phil, pls read the 6th letter of Nina from Jakarta on meditation at
this link (scrolling down to the one addressed to Blanche, dated June 28th
‘82.) Pls quote back any parts for discussion with your comments if
inclined.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/lett2.html

Also, thx for your kind reply under ‘Perseverence in Dhamma’ (the one I’m
not meant to reply to further;-)). Yes, ‘Repaying One’s Parents’, AN, Bk
of 2s, iv, 2. If there are the right conditions, of course the best
repayment or generosity is helping with dhamma, but no use clinging to
this if there are not the conditions or interest.I’ve been reminded of
this a few times - it used to raise just this question and sutta;-)
======


	
33593

From: gazita2002 <gazita2002@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 3:04am
Subject: Re: Playing around with the past

Dear Ken H,
Hello; missed meeting up with you again last Cooran time, 
but maybe I can make the next one if I know well in advance when it 
is.
I like your last statement here and want to add my '2 cents 
worth'...

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew and Christine,
> 
> This brief conversation of yours must have touched a nerve; I keep 
> thinking about it! 

-snip-
> The only thing, we know for sure that we haven't experienced, is 
> Path Consciousness. 
> 

------------------
> "enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough 
to 
> become dispassionate, enough to be released."
> >
> -----------------
> 
> Knowing that there is a way out makes contemplation of infinite 
> samsara quite liberating, doesn't it? It reminds me of people who 
> have had `near death experiences' only more so. It makes all 
> conventional values meaningless and yet it makes the present moment 
> incredibly meaningful.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Ken H

Its the last sentence about meaningless and meaningful that 
caught my eye. Recently lots of things other than dhamma, seem to 
have lost any substance for me, and I know that there are not that 
many kusala moments either, bec its often accompanied by unpleasant 
feeling. I'm guessing its attachment for listening, being with 
dhamma friends etc. that is the cause of dosa [besides my 
accumulations]. That for me is the meaningless bit.

The meaningful is the fact that I've heard the dhamma and can 
understand, at least some of the time, that reality cannot 
be 'manipulated' to fit in with what I want, no matter how hard I try.
so to accept this present moment for what it is, does take a large 
amount of patience, courage and good cheer and a degree of 
understanding.

'We are never free of Abhidhamma. People who have never heard of 
it are not free of it; people who have heard but hate it are not 
free of Abhidhamma; people who love it but never follow it and vice 
versa, are never free of it!!'
[from my notebook dated 8/3/2519 B.E.]

Patience, courage and good cheer,
Azita.
	
33594

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 4:14am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:

Dear Htoo,
....
S: I apologise for doing it like this - I scribble down notes and then
it's hard to find the originals. Pls feel free to move them back
to 
the thread if you prefer (or I will if we need the original context).
.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: It is fine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
....
S: In the first part of this paragraph you seem to be talking about
parinibbana (at the death of the arahant) after arahatta cuti citta. 
You refer to the last series of cittas as `arahatta phala
citta', but 
surely arahatta phala citta refers to the cittas following arahatta 
magga citta when arahantship is attained? Are you referring to phala 
samapatti or is phala used in connection with the last series of 
cittas of an arhant? I'm not aware of this. Pls clarify.
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: This is a description of what most arahats do. Anyway, all 
arahats end with arahatta cuti citta which is tihetuka vipaka citta.

In human realm, it is one of 4 nana sampayutta mahavipaka citta. In 
rupa brahma including suddhavasa brahmas, arahatta cuti citta will be 
rupavipaka citta while in arupa brahma arahatta cuti citta will be 
arupavipaka citta.

Just before this is a series of javana cittas. These javana cittas 
may be any javana cittas. But most arahats stay in jhana samapatti or 
they may stay in phala samapatti. They might stay in kamavacara 
kiriya cittas. But after cuti, as these javana cittas are kiriya 
cittas ( if kamavacara they are kamavacara mahakiriya cittas, if in 
jhana and they are rupacavacara rupakiriya cittas ), there is no 
patisandhi citta and the whole circle at that time that is at the end 
of cuti citta of arahats is cut up and there is total extinguishment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: OK, of course as you agree, bhavanga citta also has its object. I 
think you mean, no sense or mind door citta process.
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: It makes it sound like there are only bhavanga cittas in between, 
but I know you don't mean this. You mean `filled with
bhavanga 
cittas' between the sense and mind door processes.
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Right. You grasped the idea. I just limited in the opening 
that 'Normally'. I mean life is made up of cittas and rupas as an 
illusion. After leaving co-existing rupas, cittas are being talked. 
So life is made up of cittas. The first citta is patisandhi and the 
last citta is cuti.

In between are bhavanga cittas. In terms of bhumi ( realm ), jati 
(origin ), sankhara, sampayutta and arammana, patisandhi, bhavanga 
and cuti are all the same. Only difference is function.

Leaving patisandhi and cuti, there will only be bhavanga 
cittas 'Normally'.

:-) This is my own simile. If this is in old literature, it might be 
that I had read it long time ago. Or this may be totally new.

There is a monkey. That monkey is a citta. As soon as a life starts, 
the first monkey is patisandhi citta. He is holding the arammana 
branch of maranasanna javana cittas of immediate past life.

The monkey passes away. The branch disappears. The first bhavanga 
citta arises. That monkey holds a branch. As the branches of the same 
tree, branches are all the same in terms of bark colour, bark 
content, wood material etc etc.

That 1st bhavanga monkey passes away. The branch disappears. Next 
citta arises. This happens in the same tree as there is kamma still 
left.

When the tree is shaken, at the start of shaking, a monkey passes 
away. The branch disappears. Next arises bhavanga calana citta. As 
the branch is vibrating, the monkey is looking for another branch but 
he does not release the branch. He passes away. The branch disappears.

Next arise bhavangupaccheda citta. This monkey is about to transfer 
himself to a new branch of different tree but he is still holding the 
old branch. He passes away. The branch disappears.

There is no permanent monkey.

Next monkey is holding a branch of a different tree. This is the 
start of vithi vara or the turn of arising of serially ordered cittas 
or consciousness.

Yes. Vithi citta are called vithi citta not bhavanga citta. But what 
I said is any citta in an illusion of a life is a part of that whole 
life. So vithi cittas are all parts of life. But they are not called 
bhavanga citta which literally means part of life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: I think of kusala and akusala cittas only arising in the javana
process. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Yes. Nina suggested me to be clear. All kusala cittas and all 
akusala cittas arise only when in javana function.

Vipaka cittas are not akusala cittas and they are not kusala cittas. 
The adjective 'akusala' and 'kusala' in front of vipaka may make 
readers confused. 

Vipaka are not akusala or kusala. Vipaka are abyakata. But vipaka may 
be the result of good actions in the past or the result of bad 
actions in the past.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S:

I particularly like your comment in JTN (02) and please continue to
encourage others with the Abhidhamma too;-):
*****
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Actually I just express and try to put points for discussion. I 
will continue if time permit me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Metta,
Sarah
p.s DT (016) you refer to `if avajjana citta is akusala...',
but of 
course as you clarify in (017), avajjana cittas are (ahetuka) kiriya 
cittas, not kusala or akusala. Your comments in (015) on the meaning 
of vajjana,eg `manodraravajjana citta arises and contemplates on
the 
object....' are interesting. Of course this is just one citta, 
usually translated as mind-door adverting consciousness. I'm not
sure 
that we can use contemplating or thinking in this connection.
======
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo:

Pancadvaravajjana citta is a kiriya citta. I think I mentioned wrong 
because I was concentrated at arammana which is rupa.

Avajjana as I mentioned has two parts. Aa is meant for arammana or 
object. Vajjana is to check, to contemplate, to scrutinise, to 
examine, to inspect, etc etc. So avajjana is like a watcher who is 
responsible controlling 5 gates. If a truck stops in front of one of 
the 5 gates, the watcher contemplates or checks or scrutinises or 
examines or inspects which gate the truck is standing.

Next arise pancavinnana citta. Anantara 'walkie-talkie' alerts the 
gate opener ( pancavinnana citta ) and the specific gate is opened.

Advert has different meanings. Only one of them just fits for 
avajjana. It is 'turn the attention to'.

As soon as the truck stops in front of one of the 5 gates, the 
attention of the watcher is turned to all 5 gates. He knows gate 1 or 
gate 3 or gate 4 but he does not open the gate, which is the function 
of gate-openers.

Avajjana citta checks which door the sense comes in.

This is why I prefer Pali words rather than simple English words. I 
say Pali words but not Pali language. Pali words can become imported 
words and this will be much better than simple translated words.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33595

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 4:04am
Subject: The 7 Noble Treasures !

Friends:

What are the seven Noble Treasures ?

The confidence of Faith.
The virtue of Morality.
The conscience of Shame.
The fear of Blame.
The advantage of Learning.
The gift of Generosity.
The insight of Understanding.

These are the seven Noble Treasures. 
Taught by the exalted & blessed Buddha.


Source: Satta Ariya-dhanani. Digha Nikaya iii 251.
The long Discourses of the Buddha:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033







All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma






	
33596

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 6:43am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:

Hi Howard,
[...]
> whereas visual object is known. A "physical" thing or event "out there" independent 
> of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no more 
> than that. [...]

> The "body", and "the 
> external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of at the 
> moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". All are 
> the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. [...]

> But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of major 
> concern, but that these are merely hypothesized.
> =======================
> With metta,
> Howard

this is precisely why I took interest in this rupas.
there is some kind of gap, problem of strange sort which 
is placed between mediative and intellectual experience.

I don't have a view on the subject of rupas, but I do need
to chose which way I will go. my choice is rather mediative and
nonreactive. not the speculative one as I already spent most of life
listening to speculations in my mind.

Buddha advises to chose the way which leads to cessation of suffering
and confusion. So maybe is best just to drop thinking
about it and just sit. Not sure if this mind will give up. 
Will see.

metta,
Agrios
	
33597

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 6:50am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
[...]
> 
> Comments welcome and I'll try not to interrupt your good discussions too
> often!
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah

Hi Sarah,

thank you for such a nice and clear introduction to the subject of external rupas. I have a picture now.
I am saving this post as a starting point for future reference.

metta,
Agrios
	
33598

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 0:18pm
Subject: Buddhaghosa

Hello All,

On another list, someone posted: "If the Venerable Buddhagosa was an 
arahat then why did he at the end of the Visuddhi Magga make a 
sincere wish to be reborn at the time of the final fading away of 
the Buddha sassana?"

I seem to remember a discussion of this point once (but can't find 
it in any archives) where (I think) someone showed that the words 
below were only in the Sinhalese texts, and that they were not by 
Buddhaghosa, but by a scribe:

"So may I in my next becoming
Behold the joys of Taavati.msaa,
Glad in the qualities of virtue
And unattached to sense desires
By having reached the first fruition,
And having in my last life seen
Metteyya, Lord of Sages, Highest
Of persons in the World, and Helper
Delighting in all beings' welfare,
And heard that Holy One proclaim
The Teaching of the Noble Law,
May I grace the Victor's Dispensation
By reaizing its Highest Fruit."

Can anyone help?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33599

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 0:37pm
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Friend Sarah,

Sarah: James, I thought your post on Sakka's Questions, DN21 was a 
very good one and your points are very interesting.

James: So, do you agree with my points? I'm not sure what you mean 
by that they are `interesting'.

Sarah: Just a few comments, but no answers here. Sakka is a 
sotapanna and he knows the Buddha's answers are correct (unlike 
those of other ascetics and brahmins). 

James: I am not sure of your point here. Sakka didn't become a 
sotapanna until the end of this particular discourse. In this 
instance, he didn't know while he was listening to the Buddha that 
the Buddha was correct. It wasn't until Sakka finished his whole 
series of questions that he knew the Buddha was correct, because he 
used his reasoning. This reasoning and the conclusions he drew made 
him become a sotapanna. 

Sarah: I think the underlying emphasis perhaps is on the eradication 
of wrong view and wrong view proliferating. It is this kind of 
attachment (desire) which leads to the particular likes and dislikes 
resulting in jealousy and avarice/stinginess (selfishness is not a 
good translation for macchariya imho) which leads to hostility and 
battle as described in your post. There will still be anger and hate 
as you say, but not as strongly for one without wrong view.

James: Okay. Again, I don't know if you agree or disagree with my 
conclusions. I don't understand what you are saying exactly. If 
you re-explain I will try to respond. If it isn't important, or you 
don't have any position or points to make, we can just let it drop. 
No big deal to me. ;-))

Metta, James
	
33600

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 4:29pm
Subject: First Dhamma talk

Hello all

Something courage-giving to share this morning. Had my first ever 
face-to-face dhamma talk yesterday, with Rob K, at Haneda airport 
here in Japan. We talked for close to 3 hours. The time flew. After 
close to two years of only "talking" about the Buddha's teaching 
through a computer screen, what an confidence-building and 
invigorating - I guess that might be the right word - experience to 
actually have the words coming out of my mouth with someone who 
deeply shares my interest, and of course to be able to tap into Rob's 
enthusiasm and understanding so directly. I recorded most of our 
discussion and will transcribe it and share chunks of it with you 
gradually. 

It was a very good experience. I guess a fellow always remembers 
his first dhamma talk partner, so I will remember Rob, and the pseudo 
atrium with fountains and piped in piano music where we were talking 
as waitresses in mock tropical uniforms came and went like 
butterflies. 

Metta,
Phil
	
33601

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 9:27pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] First Dhamma talk

Phil

Thanks for this report, and for news of Rob K. I know what a great
experience it will have been for you. RobK's enthusiasm for the Dhamma is
infectious. Looking forward to reading more about your discussion in due
course.

Jon

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> Hello all
> 
> Something courage-giving to share this morning. Had my first ever 
> face-to-face dhamma talk yesterday, with Rob K, at Haneda airport 
> here in Japan. We talked for close to 3 hours. The time flew. After 
> close to two years of only "talking" about the Buddha's teaching 
> through a computer screen, what an confidence-building and 
> invigorating - I guess that might be the right word - experience to 
> actually have the words coming out of my mouth with someone who 
> deeply shares my interest, and of course to be able to tap into Rob's 
> enthusiasm and understanding so directly. I recorded most of our 
> discussion and will transcribe it and share chunks of it with you 
> gradually. 
> 
> It was a very good experience. I guess a fellow always remembers 
> his first dhamma talk partner, so I will remember Rob, and the pseudo 
> atrium with fountains and piped in piano music where we were talking 
> as waitresses in mock tropical uniforms came and went like 
> butterflies. 
> 
> Metta,
> Phil


	
33602

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 11:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa

Hi Christine,

--- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote: > Hello All,
> 
> On another list, someone posted: "If the Venerable Buddhagosa was an 
> arahat then why did he at the end of the Visuddhi Magga make a 
> sincere wish to be reborn at the time of the final fading away of 
> the Buddha sassana?"
....
I don't recall anyone having suggested here that Buddhaghosa was an
arahant. An ariyan yes, but I have no reason to doubt the postcript given
in the Vism and other commentaries, even if added.

Metta,

Sarah
=====

	
33603

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 11:32pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi James,

--- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> wrote: 

> James: So, do you agree with my points? I'm not sure what you mean 
> by that they are `interesting'.
....
S: I’ll try to be more direct. Good sutta to raise and I understand the
logic in what you were saying. Read in the light of other suttas,
commentaries and Abhidhamma, however, I think your main conclusion that
jealousy is not eradicated at the stage of sotapanna is wrong. When wrong
view is eradicated, so is jealousy, stinginess and those other qualities
as I tried to explain in my other post yesterday to Howard and all.
.....

> James: I am not sure of your point here. Sakka didn't become a 
> sotapanna until the end of this particular discourse. 
....
S: You’re right. It was my mistake. It’s perfectly clear in the sutta that
later all doubts were removed. Somewhere (a commentary?) I recall that
eighty or ninety thousand devas became enlightened at the same time. I
should have used the word ‘became’ rather than ‘was’. The rest stands OK,
I think. Thank you for pointing this out. I didn’t read the full sutta and
had another Sakka sutta in mind where he is already a sotapanna.
....
J: >In this 
> instance, he didn't know while he was listening to the Buddha that 
> the Buddha was correct. It wasn't until Sakka finished his whole 
> series of questions that he knew the Buddha was correct, because he 
> used his reasoning. This reasoning and the conclusions he drew made 
> him become a sotapanna. 
....
S: I’d suggest more than reasoning - direct insight into the truths he was
hearing.
.... 
> James: Okay. Again, I don't know if you agree or disagree with my 
> conclusions. 
....
S: As I’ve said, a sotapanna still has attachment and aversion and
ignorance but no wrong view and no jealousy etc as a result. Realities are
known as anatta, just depending on conditions such as kamma. 
*****
An afterthought.....
James, you might like to take a look at Sakkasamyutta (SN11) too. 11:11(1)
Vows is interesting too. We read that he became Sakka on account of seven
vows and that when a person follows these (perfectly) the Tavatimsa devas
call him a ‘superior person’, a term usually used for ariyans as I wrote
about before.

‘When a person supports his parents,
And respects the family elders;
When his speech is gentle and courteous,
And he refrains from divisive words;
When he strives to remove meanness,
Is truthful, and vanquishes anger,
The Tavatimsa devas call him
Truly a superior person.’
*****
In SN11:20 (10) The Worship of the Sangha, Sakka talks about why he
worships the Sangha and I saw the words ‘this is why I envy them’.
However, checking the Pali, it is ‘pihayaami’ which I think could be
translated as ...’I would hold them dear’. Nothing to do with issa or
envy.

Comments or not as you please;-).

Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33604

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 0:10am
Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Friend Sarah,

Sarah: I'll try to be more direct. Good sutta to raise and I 
understand the logic in what you were saying. Read in the light of 
other suttas,
commentaries and Abhidhamma, however, I think your main conclusion 
that
jealousy is not eradicated at the stage of sotapanna is wrong.

James: Thank you for being more direct. That really helps to 
facilitate discussion. I understand what you are saying about the 
commentaries, written/translated by Buddhaghosa, and the Abhidhamma, 
but I haven't seen you give any examples of suttas to prove this 
contention. As Howard pointed out, the one sutta you provided 
didn't say this, only the commentary. And again, that commentary 
was written by Buddhaghosa. To be direct, if I say that Buddhaghosa 
is wrong, and give sutta evidence and analysis to demonstrate why he 
is wrong, it isn't logical to quote Buddhaghosa again to support 
him! ;-)) Understand? (I know that Jon wrote to me off-list that I 
am not supposed to question the authority of Buddhaghosa, the 
commentaries, or the Abhidhamma, but I was not the first one to 
bring up this issue. So Quiet James is talking. ;-)) If this is 
wrong, let me know and I will be quiet again.)

Sarah: When wrong view is eradicated, so is jealousy, stinginess and 
those other qualities as I tried to explain in my other post 
yesterday to Howard and all.

James: I don't believe that a sotapanna has eradicated wrong 
view?? Where is this presented in the suttas? Let's go through the 
list again, as they are presented by the Buddha in the suttas:

1) The stream-winner (sotapanna): is one who has become free from 
the first three of the ten fetters which bind beings to the sensuous 
sphere, namely, personality belief, sceptical doubt, and attachment 
to mere rules and rituals. At this stage, one has realized nibbâna 
for the first time, and there are 7 more rebirths utmost.

2) The once-returner (sakadagami): has weakened the fourth and fifth 
of the ten fetters, sensuous craving and ill-will. There are two 
more rebirths utmost. 

3) The non-returner (anagami): becomes fully free from the above-
mentioned five lower fetters and is no longer reborn in the sensuous 
sphere. There are one more rebirth utmost.

4) Arahantship: through the path of arahant one further becomes free 
of the last five fetters: craving for fine-material existence (in 
celestial worlds), craving for immaterial (purely mental) existence, 
conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. There is no more rebirth.

http://www.buddhasasana.net/8ind.htm

Metta, James
	
33605

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 0:11am
Subject: Re: Playing around with the Past

Hi Christine, KenH and Azita

Thanks for your posts on this topic. As luck would have it, I came 
across this in the Visuddhimagga 9.36 "Description of Concentration: 
The Divine Abidings: Loving-kindness":

"But if, as he reviews the special qualities of the Master's former 
conduct, the resentment still does not subside in him, since he has 
long been used to the slavery of defilement, then he should review 
the suttas that deal with the beginninglessness [of the round of 
rebirths]. Here is what is said: 'Bhikkhus, it is not easy to find a 
being who has not formerly been your mother ... your father ... your 
brother ... your sister ... your son ... your daughter' (S.ii,189-
90). Consequently, he should think about that person thus: This 
person, it seems, as my mother in the past carried me in her womb for 
ten [sic] months and removed from me without disgust as if it were 
yellow sandalwood my urine, excrement, spittle, snot, etc, and played 
with me in her lap, and nourished me, carrying me about at her hip
... So it is unbecoming for me to harbour hate for [her] in my mind."

This exercise does seem to me to rest heavily upon self-view, but is 
obviously intended for use in the presence of a virulent form of 
resentment. But is there a silver lining to the dark cloud of self-
view? Vism 9.10:

"I visited all quarters with my mind
Nor found I any dearer than myself;
Self is likewise to every other dear;
Who loves himself will never harm another (S.i,75; Ud.47)"

This, I think, points to the importance of remembering that others 
are just like "me" in all basic respects. Anyway ...

Best wishes
Andrew
	

33606

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 1:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

Dear Christine, Nina, TG & All,

I looked at the sutta you quoted on 5 spheres of release in a couple of
translations. I’m not sure I have anything substantive to add, but as I’ve
had the texts lying around for several days, I’ll just add a few comments
anyway. Spheres (aayataani) or occasions. In other words, decisive
supports again as I see it. It doesn’t mean we should read the sutta as a
set of prescriptions. Listening, considering, wise reflecting,
understanding can take place any time. Remember when we were in Bangkok
and K. Sujin kept asking people ‘what is dhamma?’. Hearing now, seeing,
jealousy, any reality is dhamma which can be known at this moment. With
the right conditions (i.e enough accumulated wisdom), there can be
‘release’ now whatever our activity.

I came across the same expressions of joy and so on in ‘The Simile of the
Cloth’, when there is perfect confidence in the Triple Gem and the first
set of kilesa are eradicated:

“When he has given up, expelled, released, abandoned, and relinquished
[the imperfections of the mind] in part, he considers thus: ‘I am
possessed of perfect confidence in the Buddha,’ and he gains inspiration
in the meaning, gains inspiration in the Dhamma, gains gladness connected
with the Dhamma. When he is glad, rapture is born in him; in one who is
rapturous, the body becomes tranquil; one whose body is tranquil feels
pleasure; in one who feels pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.”

In the fifth sphere of vimutti (release) you refer to, the comy says the
concentration sign refers to ‘one of the thirty-eight objects
(aarammana-kasi.na), so in this case the samatha object is the basis for
enlightenment.

I’m considering words like basis and support these days. Birth is a basis
for all suffering, but it doesn’t mean we can take action not to be born
at will. It’s a description of realities. The climate was a suitable
condition for those living in the Kuru country to be health, live long
lives and be able to listen to the Satipatthana Sutta. Again, it’s not a
prescription to move to the Kuru country. Or in the sutta just before the
one you gave in the DN version, 33:16, we read under ‘five factors of
endeavour’ that the monk has is in good health as one factor. This doesn’t
mean there cannot be any development of wisdom for those in poor health,
but it’s a supporting factor. 

Alcohol is given in the suttas as a basis for unwholesome actions, not
unwholesome in itself. It’ll depend on understanding and other conditions
whether there is abstention. 

Likewise, teaching Dhamma, listening, repeating, reflecting, jhana
development can all be immediate supporting conditions, depending on the
accumulated pa~n~naa at the time. The Buddha never told us what to do or
not do, he taught about truths and conditions and anatta as I see it. For
those who can attain jhana like the many followers in the Buddha’s time,
it can be a natural decisive support condition for some with sufficient
wisdom of the path. If we were to attempt to follow as a practice or to
try to memorize texts for that matter or read Dhamma thinking it will in
itself lead to ‘release’, these would be example of silabbattaparama (rite
and ritual adherence) and a view of self being able to control conditions
as I see it.

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	

 	 

	
33607

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 1:49am
Subject: A Gem for Victor - Quick-Witted

HI Victor & All,

I've just come across the following sutta which I'd only previously seen
in the commentaries and Abhidhamma. It relates to our earlier discussion
on understanding the meaning in the suttas by inference or detailed
explanation:
.....
AN, Bk of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS)

"Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four?

He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)=
sankhepa~n~nu]: 
he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)=
vitthaarita~n~nu]: 
he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]:
he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana-padam
eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without
understanding it].

These are the four."
*****

Also as readily apparent on DSG and relevant to our discussion on replies:

AN, Bk of 4s, ii (132) Reply

" ' Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four?

He who replies to the point, not diffusely: he who replies diffusely, not
to the point: he who does both: he who does neither. These are the four.'"

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33608

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:04am
Subject: A Gem for Rob Ep - Luminous

Dear Rob Ep & All,

We had so many good discussion on DSG on the ‘luminous’ thread, relating
to these lines: “As it was said (by the Enlightened One): 'This mind,
monks, is luminous, but it becomes soiled by adventitious defilements'”
(AN I.49).

For Newbies, in U.P. selected (by the mods) posts can be read under
‘luminous’ and threads followed:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.

A couple of days ago I quoted from ‘The Simile of the Cloth’,
MN7 (Vatthupama Sutta), transl by Nyanaponika
http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/index.html#home

The first foot-note (which I didn’t quote before) relates to the AN sutta
and those of us who accept the commentary interpretation will agree with
the note from the commentary;-)
.....
“1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in
Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks
thus: "Monks." -- "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said
this: 

2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in
some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take
the dye badly and be impure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth
was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,[1] an unhappy
destination [in a future existence] may be expected. 

Notes 
1. "So too, monks, if the mind is defiled..." Comy: "It may be asked why
the Buddha had given this simile of the soiled cloth. He did so to show
that effort brings great results. A cloth soiled by dirt that is
adventitious (i.e., comes from outside; agantukehi malehi), if it is
washed can again become clean because of the cloth's natural purity. But
in the case of what is naturally black, as for instance (black) goat's
fur, any effort (of washing it) will be in vain. Similarly, the mind too
is soiled by adventitious defilements (agantukehi kilesehi). But
originally, at the phases of rebirth(-consciousness) and the
(sub-conscious) life-continuum, it is pure throughout (pakatiya pana
sakale pi patisandhi-bhavanga-vare pandaram eva). As it was said (by the
Enlightened One): 'This mind, monks, is luminous, but it becomes soiled by
adventitious defilements' (AN I.49). But by cleansing it one can make it
more luminous, and effort therein is not in vain." 
*****
Metta,

Sarah
=====


	
33609

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions on Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma

Hi Lee (& RobM),

I’d also like to welcome you (any any of your friends) to DSG. Like he
said, you’ve obviously all been studying the Abhidhamma in some depth and
I look forward to hearing from you further. When Nina returns, she’ll also
love any further questions you raise on the Abhidhamma or Visuddhimagga.

Rob gave some great and quick replies. Just a few further comments as I’m
writing to you anyway:

--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote: 
> Visible data is what impinges upon eye-sensitivity. It is an image 
> and could be considered to be like a single frame of a motion picture 
> film. Eye-consciousness arises at the eye.
...
S: We could add that only eye-consciousness arises at the eye-base.The
other cittas in the eye-door process arise at the heart-base.

All we can really say about visible object is that it is just that which
is seen when we open our eyes. it’s misleading to think of ‘a light with
single colour or image’. Nothing special or different from what has always
been seen with ignorance.

You might like to look at posts under ‘visible object and seeing’ in U.P.:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
.....
R:> The cetasikas arising with rootless vipaka cittas are as follows:
> - The two sets of five sense-consciousness have only the seven 
> universal cetasikas
> - The remaining five rootless vipaka cittas (two receiving, three 
> investigating) have the seven universal cetasikas plus initial 
> application, sustained application plus determination. The 
> investigating with pleasant feeling also has enthusiasm.
> 
> All of these cetasikas are from the indeterminate group.
....
S: Lee, I think Rob is just following your lead here with his use of
‘indeterminate group’. I think it’s a bit of a misnomer for the Ethically
Variable Factors (a~n`nasamaanacetasika) or Particulars as they are
sometimes called (paki.n.nakaa). Rather than being ‘indeterminate
(abyaakata)’, they are sobhana or akusala depending on the citta they
accompany.
....
R: > The roles of the mahavipaka cittas are:
> - Bhavanga for human / deva / brahma realms with two or three roots, 
...
S: I think Htoo said the same. I’d like to add: ‘or no roots such as when
someone is handicapped or blind or deaf from birth, for example’. These
are still kusala vipaka in the human realm. In woeful planes tthey are
akusala vipaka citta.

Of course there are still experiences in the human realm that are results
of akusala citta - eg kusala and akusala vipaka citta which sees etc.
...
R: > pleasant / neutral feeling, prompted / unprompted
> - Registration for desireable and very desireable rupas
> 
> All beings in the woeful planes have the same citta performing the 
> role of bhavanaga (investigating consciousness with indifferent 
> feeling). This same citta plays the role of registration for 
> undesireable rupas.
> 
> I am not sure that this answers the question of "WHY" :-)
....
S: I’m not sure either. Lee you may have to elaborate for us;-)
...
L: > > 6. Is the first seven cetasikas from the indeterminate group arise

> > according to the sequence?
...
S: Here you mean ‘from the universal cetasikas group.’ Rob answered it
clearly.
....
L: > > Really hope you all can help as we have try to look for help where 
> > we can reach but in vain.
....
S: At least we can act as good sign-posts here. Have you read Nina Van
Gorkom’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’, available on many websites:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/
http://www.zolag.co.uk/
I think you’d find her book ‘Cetasikas’ very helpful too. Also B. Bodhi’s
translation of Abhidammattha Sangaha (CMA) not on line.
...
R:> I have given very short answers to very short questions. Let me know 
> if there are any answers that you would like to have expanded upon. 
...
S: They were very good answers - I’ve snipped all the best parts. 
....
R:> Clearly, you and your friends have been studying Abhidhamma for some 
> time. Where are you and your friends located? Do you get together 
> regularly to discuss Abhidhamma?
....
S: Yes, please tell us anything you care to share about your group. As you
may already know, RobM is an Abhidhamma teacher in Malaysia and attracts
very large numbers to his weekly talks. (It’s a long time since you told
us your topics, Rob.....).

Metta,

Sarah
====


	
33610

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 3:13am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

Hi Htoo (& Others at end of post),

--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: >
> Htoo: This is a description of what most arahats do. Anyway, all 
> arahats end with arahatta cuti citta which is tihetuka vipaka citta.
> 
> In human realm, it is one of 4 nana sampayutta mahavipaka citta. In 
> rupa brahma including suddhavasa brahmas, arahatta cuti citta will be 
> rupavipaka citta while in arupa brahma arahatta cuti citta will be 
> arupavipaka citta.
> 
> Just before this is a series of javana cittas. These javana cittas 
> may be any javana cittas. But most arahats stay in jhana samapatti or 
> they may stay in phala samapatti. They might stay in kamavacara 
> kiriya cittas. But after cuti, as these javana cittas are kiriya 
> cittas ( if kamavacara they are kamavacara mahakiriya cittas, if in 
> jhana and they are rupacavacara rupakiriya cittas ), there is no 
> patisandhi citta and the whole circle at that time that is at the end 
> of cuti citta of arahats is cut up and there is total extinguishment.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
...
Fine
....
> Htoo: Right. You grasped the idea. I just limited in the opening 
> that 'Normally'. I mean life is made up of cittas and rupas as an 
> illusion. After leaving co-existing rupas, cittas are being talked. 
> So life is made up of cittas. The first citta is patisandhi and the 
> last citta is cuti.
> 
> In between are bhavanga cittas. In terms of bhumi ( realm ), jati 
> (origin ), sankhara, sampayutta and arammana, patisandhi, bhavanga 
> and cuti are all the same. Only difference is function.
....
fine
....
<....>
> There is no permanent monkey.
> 
> Next monkey is holding a branch of a different tree. This is the 
> start of vithi vara or the turn of arising of serially ordered cittas 
> or consciousness.
> 
> Yes. Vithi citta are called vithi citta not bhavanga citta. But what 
> I said is any citta in an illusion of a life is a part of that whole 
> life. So vithi cittas are all parts of life. But they are not called 
> bhavanga citta which literally means part of life.
....
fine again;-) ;-)
....
> Htoo: Yes. Nina suggested me to be clear. All kusala cittas and all 
> akusala cittas arise only when in javana function.
> 
> Vipaka cittas are not akusala cittas and they are not kusala cittas. 
> The adjective 'akusala' and 'kusala' in front of vipaka may make 
> readers confused. 
...
In the case I was referring to, it was the fact that you didn’t include
‘vipaka’ that was confusing for me.
....
> 
> Vipaka are not akusala or kusala. Vipaka are abyakata. But vipaka may 
> be the result of good actions in the past or the result of bad 
> actions in the past.
...
OK
...
> Htoo: Actually I just express and try to put points for discussion. I 
> will continue if time permit me.
...
Good.....just go slowly is fine. I’ll try to keep adding comments. Some of
the posts I didn’t comment on, such as on base, object etc were very
clear and useful. 
....
<...>
> Next arise pancavinnana citta. Anantara 'walkie-talkie' alerts the 
> gate opener ( pancavinnana citta ) and the specific gate is opened.
> 
> Advert has different meanings. Only one of them just fits for 
> avajjana. It is 'turn the attention to'.
> 
> As soon as the truck stops in front of one of the 5 gates, the 
> attention of the watcher is turned to all 5 gates. He knows gate 1 or 
> gate 3 or gate 4 but he does not open the gate, which is the function 
> of gate-openers.
> 
> Avajjana citta checks which door the sense comes in.
....
Fine and cute;-)
....
> This is why I prefer Pali words rather than simple English words. I 
> say Pali words but not Pali language. Pali words can become imported 
> words and this will be much better than simple translated words.
....
I agree - slowly we can begin to understand these terms. 
Others: For those totally confused, I highly recommend printing out this
glossary from DSG files to have handy:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms
Also, put these simple Pali dictionary links in your ‘favourites’ for
quick reference if the DSG glossary doesn’t have the word and you still
wish to pursue it. (I’ve only just been told the first one is now on-line.
I’ve been referring to a battered old hard copy for a very long time.)
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html

metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33611

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Thu Jun 3, 2004 10:13pm
Subject: Forgiving Facts !

Friends:

Appeasement by Impersonality:
Ego-less, self-less & soul-less are all 
phenomena, actions, things & beings!

There are no EVIL BEINGS...
There is only Bad & Blind Behaviour!
There are neither any GOOD BEINGS...
There is only Good & Clever Behaviour!

There are no greedy beings, who want forever more...
There is only the attraction hidden in desire & lust!
There are neither any generous beings, who give...
There is only the detachment hidden within liberality!

There are no angry beings, who violently harm & hurt ...
There is only the repulsion hidden in aversion & hate!
There are neither any harmless beings, who protect...
There is only the goodwill within compassion & pity!

There are no ignorant beings, who search & doubt...
There is only the confusion of neglect & uncertainty!
There are neither any clever beings, who just know...
There is only the intelligence within understanding!






All are momentary & ever changing.
Even the good suddenly turns bad!
Even the bad suddenly turns good!
Mixed are the actions of all beings. 
Born of prior kamma is all being..
Created by prior kamma is all being..
Dependent on prior kamma is all being..
Conditioned by prior kamma is all being..
Owner of prior kamma is all being..
Debtor of prior kamma is all being..
Inheriting prior kamma does all being..
A shadow that follows & never leaves..
Therefore:
Avoid all Evil
Do only Good
Purify Mind!
All Buddhas
Teach Thus...

: - ]





All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma






	
33612

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 4:28am
Subject: Conditioned? Concentration? ( was Re: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Sukin,

Thanks for your response; I hope you are enjoying (did enjoy?) your 
holiday.

-------------
S: > No Ken, you haven't got me wrong. However I have made the
suggestion to the effect that, if anyone was `meditating' as a daily
activity but not connecting this with any idea that it was `practice'
according to dhamma, then it was O.K. >
-----------------------

That sounds reasonable, although it's hard to imagine what sort of 
daily activity that might be. I wonder if any Buddhist would 
meditate if he didn't see it as Dhamma practice. In my experience, 
meditation was hardly a compulsive activity.

-----------------------
S: > Then the person could have satipatthana during the meditation, 
instead of meditating to have satipatthana! ;-) 
------------------------

That's a good way of putting it. 

---------------------
<. . .>
S: > Previously, I thought that someone might have the accumulations 
for jhana and doing so he could at the same time develop vipassana. 
But later I came to question the `self view' possibly involved in 
such ideas. A person may practice jhana [though it is unlikely that 
a layperson today could do it], 
------------------------

Not a popular contention, but I'm sure it's true.

----------------------
S: > however if his understanding of the Buddha's teaching on
satipatthana is indeed correct, then there is no need to distinguish 
jhana practice from normal everyday activity with regard to this 
anyway. >
-----------------------

As you have just said, he would be seeing it as, `a daily
activity but not connecting this with any idea that it was 
`practice'.'

----------------------
> If one did, then it seems that he is still tying jhana practice to 
vipassana in a way suggesting that without the former, the latter is 
unlikely to be fruitful. This *is* wrong view, because there is no 
direct connection between jhana and any kind of concentration 
practice with the development of vipassana panna. 
<snip>
---------------

Thanks for explaining this, Sukin. Even though I don't practise 
formal meditation, it is important that I understand why it cannot 
be `what the Buddha taught.' 

As can be seen from the following example, I am not out of the woods 
yet. :-)

Kind regards,
Ken H

--------------
KH: > > If meditation is something more than mental
relaxation, then it must entail the view of a controlling self. > > 

S: > And yet, when we realize that the cause of any mental 
exhaustion is one's own akusala cittas and these are known more, 
then even this `relaxation' will be seen as an act of accumulating 
more akusala (lobha) and therefore not to be encouraged. ;-)
	
33613

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 4:48am
Subject: Talk with Rob K pt 1 right view

Hello all. Here's a first section of the talk with (interview of, 
really) Rob K. 

Phil: I thought I'd begin by telling you how I approached this 
interview. I mentioned in the e-mail that I was interested in right 
effort, the 4 exertions. So I went to the Useful Posts at DSG, and 
one of the first ones I found on right effort was you talking about 
right view as being the first step. You know the Sutta about the 
dawn…

Rob: Right, as the dawn is the harbinger of the sun, so right view is 
the harbinger of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Phil: So that was a real eye-opener, and I think it's going to be 
one of those things that really stays with me. 

Rob: Well, I'm glad. So where should we put our efforts? In fact, we 
should put our effort into getting right view. 

Phil: It seems to me that compared to the other path factors, there'
s room for an intellectual approach – at the beginning. 

Rob: There are many levels of right view. 

Phil: Do you think it's easier perhaps to understand wrong view as a 
starting point?

Rob: Sure. If you don't understand wrong view, you'll think it's 
right view. And when wrong view is present, people think it's right 
view. Because wrong view always comes with lobha. So whenever people 
have wrong view, they cannot see it. So as the understanding grows, 
what you take for right view now, will probably seem very coarse. You 
look back on what you thought was right was absolutely wrong. 

Phil: I can see it in my own case with the Brahma-Viharas. Now I can 
see it was wrong. But I have a kind of faith that if we stay open to 
the teaching and we find the right friends who can help us correct 
our views You warn about the lobha related to Dhamma. But doesn't 
the attachment that comes from your interest in Dhamma – if you are 
open, and have the right friends – isn't it inevitably going to lead 
you towards right understanding?

Rob: From what I can see in Thailand. I see a lot of people that come 
to listen to Khun Sujin, even people who come to listen for a long 
time, still not having a particularly strong understanding. I mean 
there are people with strong understanding, but I still see people 
who are with her a long time, and it's still very intellectual. So I 
don't think we can make a rule about that. 

Phil: But even the intellectual understanding in one lifetime could 
be the condition for true understanding in another lifetime. 

Rob: Sure. Intellectual understanding is not to be devalued. But if 
you want to be very deep at all unless it's related to what there 
(there is at?) the moment. Unless lobha is seen as lobha. If you're 
just going along in you're very satisfied way, "Yeah, I'm at the 
Dhamma Study Group, I've got the right understanding" and you're 
feeling very proud about that. You're not seeing conceit. And you'
re not seeing lobha at the moment. Then actually you're not gaining 
that much. You'll gain a little bit from that intellectual 
understanding, but it'll remain very (inaudible) 

Phil: That's something I'm aware of. Conceit about beginning to 
understand Abhidhamma, all the terminology.

Rob: Well if you're aware of it, that's OK. That's understanding. 
I mean, people who are conceited won't even know they're conceited. 
The really conceited person does not think they're conceited. The 
person who's very conceited can't admit to it. I was talking to a 
few people in Thailand. A group of officials, very keen on 
Abhidhamma, just starting to learn about it. I said to one of them 
that I have conceit sometimes when I study Abhidhamma. And this lady 
was very sincere and said "Oh, whenever you think about Dhamma or 
whenever you hear Dhamma you must never have conceit." And why did 
she think that? Because she had some ideal of the way things should 
be. And she's not actually aware of the realities of the present 
moment. Conceit is a very natural reality. It's just coming again 
and again. Your conceit about your body. Your conceit about your 
intelligence. Whatever. Whatever, you know. That's you're a good 
writer, or you're good at mathematics, or you're good at Dhamma. 

Phil: And that's not eradicated until… (scrambling to remember) 
until…

Rob: Until Arahat. But there has to be awareness of it, or we'll 
never become an Arahat…

Phil: So the awareness is there and….eradicate I think of as pulling 
something out, finally removing it, but there's the loosening of the 
roots

Rob: Yeah, when we talk about eradication it's a very long process 
of eradication. I mean, I sometimes read some internet groups, and 
they think of becoming a sotapanna as some mystical thing. So you get 
people saying. "Well, don't worry too much about annata, about 
trying to understand annata, because it's very hard. Once you become 
a sotapanna you'll understand annata. (lol) but to become a 
sotapanna, it's the process of understanding annata step by step. 
That's what becoming a sotapanna means. Finally at the point when 
right view is really correct, then you become a sotapanna. So it's a 
very gradual process. 

(end of pt 1)


Metta,
Phil
	
33614

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 8:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 )

Dear Sarah,

Thanks for your reply and full response. As your list is a very 
active one, when you send a reply or comment on any of my messages, 
please just send off-list message, if there are many new messages in 
a day.

Thanks

Htoo Naing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Htoo (& Others at end of post),
	
33615

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 8:31am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 025 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Among 25 cittas which always take only kamavacara arammana or sensual 
object, hasituppada is a citta of arahats including The Buddha. These 
25 kama cittas are 10 dvipancavinnana cittas or 10 sense-
consciousness, 3 manodhatu that is 1 pancadvaravajjana citta, 2 
sampaticchana citta, 8 mahavipaka cittas, 3 santirana cittas and 1 
hasituppada citta.

12 akusala cittas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala cittas, 4 nana 
vippayutta mahakiriya cittas totalling 20 cittas can take any object 
with the exception of lokuttara arammana that is the object of 
nibbana or nibbana which is dhammarammana or thought-object.

4 nana sampayutta kamavacara mahakusala cittas can take any object 
with the only exception of arahatta magga and arahatta phala. 
Rupavacara 5th jhana abhinnana citta also does the same.

4 nana sampayutta kamavacara mahakiriya cittas and manodvaravajjana 
citta can take any object that is of kama, mahaggata or jhana, 
lokuttara, nibbana, panatta. Rupavacara 5th kiriya jhana citta does 
the same.

3 vinnanancayatana cittas ( kusala, vipaka, kiriya ) and 3 
n'evasannanasannayatana cittas ( kusala, vipaka, kiriya ) altogether 
6 jhana cittas always take mahaggata arammana and they never take any 
other object. These 6 cittas are only cittas that do not take 
pannatta as their object. Instead they take paramattha arammana or 
real object that is '1st arupa citta and 3rd arupa citta'.

3 akasanancayatana cittas, 3 akincinnayatana cittas and all 15 
rupavacara cittas take panatta arammana only and they do not take any 
paramattha arammana as their object.

4 magga cittas and 4 phala cittas always take nibbana as their object.

Depending on arammana, cittas can be grouped into

1. 25 kama-arammana cittas
2. 20 non-lokuttara-arammana cittas
3. 4 non-arahatta-arammana cittas ( 5th rupa jhana abhinna included )
4. 5 sabba-arammana cittas ( 5th rupa jhana kiriya abhinna included )
5. 6 mahaggata-arammana cittas
6. 21 pannatta-arammana cittas
7. 8 lokuttara-arammana cittas

25 + 20 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 21 + 8 = 89 cittas in total.

So far 25 messages will tell what is citta and how cittas can be 
classified.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33616

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 9:54am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau"
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> Hi Rob Ep,
> 
> ----------------------
> R: > It seems to me that satipatthana would not be "practice" but 
> would be the fruit of practice. >
> ----------------------------
> 
> You may have missed the lead-up to this conversation, Rob. We had 
> been discussing the factors leading to enlightenment --
> `enlightenment' in the sense of `direct experience of Nibbana.' The 
> last of the four factors leading to enlightenment was `practice in 
> accordance with the Dhamma.' 

Hi Ken.
I don't know how much of the lead-up I missed, but I am always happy
to receive greater clarification of the basics of the Dhamma,
especially as interpreted through the lens of Abhidhamma in this
particular arena. Your definition of enlightenment is very clear, and
I think a very good and useful one. Your description of the process
by which direct experience of Nibbana is achieved is also very clear
and helpful. Thank you.

Note for reference in this discussion that the fourth factor leading
to enlightenment, as you say above, is "practice in accordance with
the Dhamma." You then say below that the other three factors do not
include or mention formal meditation. There is of course not need for
formal meditation to be mentioned in the first three factors, because
it is included in the fourth factor: "practice in accordance with the
Dhamma." So for purposes of determining the efficacy of meditation,
formal or otherwise I might add, we need not worry about the other
three factors, but just focus on "practices in accordance with the
Dhamma." 

You define "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" to equal the
experience of satipatthana. I would dispute this. There is nowhere
in the Tipitaka where Buddha states that "only the experience of
satipatthana constitutes true practice in accordance with the Dhamma."
So this is an interpretive definition on your part, and perhaps on
the part of the commentators of the Abhidhamma, whom you may trust as
an authority almost equal to the Buddha, but I do not. I trust them
as brilliant commentators and technicians, but do not warrant them the
wisdom that perhaps you may, to freely intrepret what the Buddha said
in terms that are quite different from what he actually stated. And
sometimes this is the case. If you don't agree with this, I will try
provide a specific example. But since I don't want to get too
side-tracked I will leave that out for now.

The issue of what constitutes true practice in accordance with the
Dhamma is the single issue upon which the efficacy of meditation rises
and falls. If a practice is in accord with the Dhamma, it should
satisfy one of two conditions: 1/ It should be explicitly mentioned
as something that aspirants to enlightenment should perform; or 2/ It
should be in obvious accord with the Buddha's teachings and principles
as directly espoused in the suttas. This definition of practice would
go for all activities that do not fall into the first three
categories, but are candidates for true or right practice according to
the Dhamma, including the Abhidhamma analysis, which is also not
explicitly mentioned in the suttas, as it came into being after the
lifetime of the Buddha. So there is always an element of judgment and
speculation when it comes to assigning "Right Practice" to something
that the Buddha did not explicitly mention as a practice himself. 

I have been proposing that meditation with the aim of satipatthana in
mind, was an explicit prescription of the Buddha, a practice that is
not only in accord with the Dhamma, but is explicitly promoted in the
suttas. Abhidhamma of course disagrees with this view, and states
that Buddha's description of breathing meditation, as exctensive as it
is, and with its specific ties to the production of satipatthana in
the Anapanasati and other suttas, is a description only because people
at that time happened to be doing breathing meditation already, and so
he couched that particular teaching in that context. Again, that
seems like an extremely tortured explanation to me, and when I say
"tortured" I do not mean "ugly" or "painful," I mean it in a techical
way as meaning a convoluted analysis that bypasses the obvious in
favor of an explanation that does not make sense of what was actually
said, but suits the philosophy of the person making the argument. 
Abhidhamma has an enormous amount to offer in the way of its detailed
analysis of the action of consciousness and the structure of the path
to enlghtenment. But the abdication of Buddha's obvious teachings
that don't happen to fit with Abhidhamma's philosophical leanings do
not do Abhidhamma good service. It undercuts its efficacy by taking
practitioners away from practices that are beneficial and part of the
Buddhist path. In my opinion this is a grave error. Abdhidhamma
should come to terms with the full spectrum of the Buddha's teachings
and not isolate itself in deference to the commentators, if that is
the cause.

If Buddha had the same aim as those who make the above argument to
warn that breathing itself is not a special object and should not be
taken as a primary object of practice, I think he was smart enough
[omniscient in fact] that he would have warned that his teaching in
this sutta was not meant to imply that breath *should* be taken as the
object of medtitation, or that meditation should be undertaken as a
practice. He gave no such warning, though he gave countless specific
warnings against other dangers on the path.

I think that the crucial point is whether Buddha advocated practices
and whether it is possible to practice while not affirming the
existence of a practitioner. In my opinion, Buddha would not have
taken something that is an experience, something that is not
practiced, but is a result of certain conditions, and call it is a
practice. Again, let's be obvious about it. A practice is something
that is practiced. It tortures the definition of a practice to say
that satipatthana *is* the practice. Satipatthana is the fruit of a
practice, and that practice is the practice of mindfulness. Whether
one engages in the practice of simple sati through formal or informal
meditation, or merely by focussing upon the arising of experience in
the moment does not make a crucial difference. What matters is that
one is bound to be unsuccessful in experiencing satipatthana, and that
repeated concentration [Right Concentration] in this practice [Right
Practice] with the correct kind of effort [Right Effort] will
eventually train the mind to be concentrated and mindful and lead to
the conditions that create the more extended experience of
satipatthana, vipassana, and bring one into the stream of experience
that leads to enlightenment.

If one affirms that there is such a path of practice recommended by
the Buddha and that it should be engaged in the same way that one
engages with sutta reading and conversation such as that which occurs
on this list, is one by doing so affirming that there is a being,
entity, self or soul existent within the khandas? Does one turn their
back on Buddhism by stating that there is a practice and that it can
be engaged with? Of course not! That is a straw man. Everyone
speaks of the beings that we appear to be as you, he, I, them, we all
refer to ourselves by name and live our lives as though they were
real, knowing that there is no entity within that these names, titles
and lives refer to, because that is the way of conventional reality. 

Conventional reality doesn't go away. We don't abdicate brushing our
teeth or going to work because there is no one brushing or going to
work. Why should we give up sati practice or meditation because we
believe that there is no one ultimately to do such things? We do them
as conditional beings who have faith that these kandhas by doing so
will be subjected to the unconditioned if we follow the path
consistently and that the illusion of self will be taken away by these
practices. It is not that we are lost in the future, or ignoring the
present, but that we are taking a principled approach to what we do in
the present. This does not affirm a self, but affirms a belief in
freedom from the self.

> As we know, the Dhamma declares all reality, apart from Nibbana, to 
> be conditioned and to have the characteristics anicca, dukkha and 
> anatta. The practice is to directly see the truth of this 
> teaching. Directly seeing the truth of conditioned reality is 
> called, satipatthana. Extensive satipatthana leads to dispassion, 
> renunciation and relinquishment -- with regard to conditioned 
> reality. As a result, the only unconditioned reality, Nibbana, 
> becomes the object of consciousness. I think, at this stage, direct 
> experience becomes what you would call the fruit of the practice. 
> It is also called Path Consciousness or sometimes `vipassana' but 
> not, strictly speaking, `satipatthana.' 

It may be that enlightenment is the fruit of satipatthana, but still
satipatthana is the fruit of Right Effort towards mindfulness. 
Without such a practice satipatthana is not going to just pop out of
the blue. What do you think creates the conditions for satipatthana
to arise? It is not only reading the suttas, etc., but is Right
Practice, which includes mindfulness meditation.

> ---------------------------
> R: > Of course, there is an inclination in Abhidhamma to remove any 
> definition of practice that involves "someone" "doing something" and 
> so you can only have the spontaneous result, not the doing that 
> leads to it. >
> ---------------------------
> 
> `Spontaneous' is a bad choice of word here. Ultimately, as you say, 
> there is no "someone doing something" but nothing is spontaneous; 
> everything that arises does so from a cause. 

That's right; and one of the causes of satipatthana arising is the
practice of mindfulness. One must train the mind, not just leave it
sitting there. Training the mind to concentrate and discern the
arising of the moment does not necessitate a self to will or do that;
it necessitates the arising of the desire to do it, and engagement
with the mind by consciousness towards that focus; and we shouldn't
discourage such a practice from arising.

Again, I do not believe that the Buddha would call something a
practice that we were meant to wait around for and hope that it
happens due to some other conditions. The conditions that are meant
to cause satipatthana to arise are conditions within these kandhas. 
These guys have got to get to work and perform their Right Effort. 
They are not just meant to sit around waiting for satipatthana to
strike. I said "by Grace" because that is the tone towards something
to happen that is not a practice. We are either responsible for our
actions, or we are just waiting for "Grace" by another name.

It reminds me of those who say "Well Jesus will take care of it." We
are responsible for the process, not Buddha. He showed the path, we
have to follow it. And it includes real practices, like meditation. 
I have been told that "reading sutta" is not a practice because only
an intellectual result is attained, and that "meditation" is a
practice that brings up the idea of a self to achieve something
because one has the hope that one will achieve satipatthana. This
seems like it is twisted on its head. Its okay to do something that
will *not* give you the result you want, but it is not okay to do a
practice that *might* give you the result, because that will bring up
the idea of self that can do it, which will stop the result. So we
are left with a choice between a preliminary practice and "Grace" by
another name, or a practice whose practice will prevent it from being
effective, because it might be thought to be too effective. Talk
about a convoluted set of understandings. Why not just do the
practice that gives the result and work towards dropping the idea of a
self doing it or getting the results? I am told that cannot be done,
because the idea of the "doer" or "self" cannot be dropped, possibly
because this would lead to the idea of a self who can drop himself! I
hate to say this, but it seems that this complicated explanation is
only geared towards defending the practices that are in vogue and
blocking those that are not popular with the Abhidhammic culture.

The reason I speak so boldly is because I really do think something
can be done here; these two views can be reconciled, but not if there
is a pre-existing prejudice against anything not prescribed by one or
another specific philosophy. And I am sorry for any harshness that
could be taken personally, but it is not meant personally, but most
fervently.

> -------------------------
> R: > But then why on earth call it practice? If it is not something 
> that one does, it is not practice at all, but just a happening which 
> one receives. That is not practice, but "grace" by another name. >
> -------------------------
> 
> Hold on there, Rob! "Someone doing something" is one 
> extreme, "someone receiving grace" is the other. The Abhidhamma has 
> no truck with either extreme. It deals with the middle (the 
> ultimate) reality in which there are dhammas that are arising, 
> performing their functions and falling away.

And yet there is a philosophy of things to do to facilitate the
conditions for satipatthana to arise, and that is not merely of the
moment arising, is it?

> --------------------------
> R: > It seems to me that if "practice" is listed as the fourth 
> factor towards enlightenment, this is because practices including 
> meditation were in fact recommended by the Buddha.
> --------------------------
> 
> Practice in the form of satipatthana, yes. The other three factors 
> are not practice but they are conditions for practice. They are, 
> association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and wise 
> consideration of the true Dhamma. (No mention of formal meditation.)

With respect, correct me if I am wrong, but all four groups are
conditions for enlightenment. The first three are not given as
conditions for practice, are they? Rather, practice itself is one of
the four conditions for enlightenment. You cannot say that practice
is not soemthing that has to be done, but merely a result of reading
and understanding from suttas and spiritual advisors. There is no
practice in reading sutta and coms and then waiting for satipatthana
to just pop up. Where's the practice? Like many convoluted
explanations, this one ignores the definition of practice as something
that one does, and turns it into an arising path factor that one can
do nothing about, the exact opposite of the word. Right Effort is not
really effort, something that one asserts, because if they did they
would be asserting the existence of a self that can assert the effort.
Well, it was Buddha's term, not ours! He said Effort; if he meant a
feeling of something taking place brought on by conditions he could
have picked a better word! Effort and Practice, all these active
words used by the Buddha, are turned into passive arisings which are
not allowed to have the meaning that they actually have. Effort is
not longer Effort, it is a kind of non-Effort that arises by itself
due to conditions. I think this is an unnecessary abdication of the
"doing" aspect of practice, effort, volition, etc. It is not a hidden
"self" that has to exercise these things, but the kandhas, led by
consciousness. Consciousness, citta, is trained to engage in these
efforts and to engage the mental and physical mechanisms to do these
things. No self involved. But a result that leads to the eradication
of the idea of self.

> When you rightly say, "recommended by the Buddha," that begs the 
> questions; "Recommended to whom? Who hears? Who considers? With 
> what beings do they associate? " 

Only kandhas, including citta, are there to hear, consider etc. So
that is what is involved.

In the middle ground known as 
> ultimate reality there are no beings to give or carry out 
> recommendations, there are only dhammas. 

But they do hear and consider and make decisions according to
conditions and engage in practices based on those decisions. The
whole chain is there, without a self. And all the above can be
trained to be on the path.

The Middle Way is the 
> arising of eight supramundane dhammas known as Path Factors. 

And Abhidhamma, in my uneducated and presumptuous opinion, makes the
mistake of interpreting those path factors in a convoluted way, as all
arising as once with no particular practice leading to this event. It
is again, a mystical event, a kind of Grace that takes place when all
the right conditions are met. I know you object to the word, but I
think it has that flavor of faith in a mystical event.

Instead, I believe that the Buddha wanted the eight path factors to be
put into practice through the way we live our lives, the attention we
give to the events of life, and the special practices we engage in
such as sutta study, lively discussion on dsg, and formal meditation
on the breath and the four factors of mindfulness. It seems obvious
in his words, and sensible to me. Why twist it into a complex and
mystical series of uncontrollable events, all in the name of anatta? 
Anatta is to be realized, also through practice, not invoked to
*prevent* practice. What a mistake!

> -----------------
> R: > Do you agree that in any case "practice" as a resultant state 
> without any intervening effort is a rather tortured definition 
> of "practice?" >
> ------------------------------
> 
> Right effort is an integral part of the practice and, appropriately, 
> it arises with it, not separately. So no, I don't agree. Far from 
> being tortured, the explanation of momentary reality is beautiful.

I also think the explanation of momentary reality is beautiful, and as
I'm sure you know, do not mean "tortured" in that way. But the
explanation of momentary reality does not preclude sensible and
gradual practices towards enlightenment, and to interpret it that way
is a grave error.

Best,
Robert Ep.

===========================================
	
33617

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5

When someone attains jhåna he can be temporarily free from attachment to
sense objects, but defilements cannot be eradicated by jhåna. Only the
development of vipassanå leads to the eradication of defilements.
When someone develops samatha, sati-sampajañña should realize the difference
between kusala citta and akusala citta, and he should realize when akusala
citta with attachment arises. Sati-sampajañña is needed and this means, that
he should not only have theoretical understanding of kusala and akusala, but
that he should be aware right at the moment when attachment arises. He
should also be truly motivated to be free from sense objects and to subdue
attachment to them. This means that he should lead a life of contentment
with little, without any entertainments, without indulging in all the
pleasant things of life. If he is not a monk, his life-style should still be
similar to the monk¹s way of life.
The kasinas, disks, are among the meditation subjects of samatha and these
can remind us of the goal of samatha. We discussed the Earth Kasina, one of
the meditation subjects of samatha. One of the meanings of kasina is
³entire² or ³whole². The kasina disk or circle includes all. In the case of
the earth kasina, we can be reminded that all we are attached to is just
earth. When we are eating, when we go shopping and buy clothes, or when we
use table and chair, we are clinging to earth. The element of earth
represents solidity, hardness or softness. This element is present in all
sense objects. One cannot attain calm by merely looking at a kasina and
concentrating on it. There should be right understanding of this mediation
subject and of the goal of its development.
We read about people in the Buddha¹s time who could develop all stages of
jhåna and then developed vipassanå. For them samatha was the foundation or
proximate cause for insight. However, in order to be able to do so they had
to acquire ³masteries² (vasí) of jhåna. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (IV,
131): ³Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery: mastery in adverting,
mastery in attaining, mastery in resolving (steadying the duration), mastery
in emerging, and mastery in reviewing.² This means that jhånacitta had
become very natural to them and could arise at any time. Therefore, it could
become an object of insight. In order to eradicate defilements completely,
insight has to be developed. The person who could attain jhåna had to be
aware of the cetasikas which are jhånafactors: applied thinking (vitakka),
sustained thinking (vicara), zest (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and
concentration (ekaggata cetasika) [4].

Footnote:
4. The jhånafactors are the sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas that should be
developed so that absorption, jhåna, can be attained.

****
Nina
	
33618

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Sarah and Rob M,
I fully endorse Sarah's statement about Buddhaghosa. Right, we better point
the finger to ourselves when we do not understand.
I think that when we study carefully and quietly the points where people,
even wellknown scholars, critize Buddhaghosa, we can find out that such
controversies are quite unnecessary.
I would like to clear up any criticism of Buddhaghosa, any doubt about
whether he is wrong, even in minor points. And for the Pali I can ask for
help from Suan as I did before.
Nina. 
op 03-06-2004 09:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:

> S: Objection!!I don’t understand B.Bodhi to have suggested that
> ‘Buddhaghosa got it wrong.’ As I understand, in his comment he is giving a
> very brief summary of the detailed commentary note which goes to pains to
> show the reasons for ‘its reasonableness’. The orthodox Theravada
> tradition (including the Buddhist Councils as I understand) includes the
> Visuddhimagga and other ancient Pali commentaries. Buddhaghosa was a
> compiler of ancient commentaries -- as you agree -- brought to Sri lanka
> by the great arahant Mahinda. His compilation work was under the scrutiny
> of the great arahants in Sri Lanka at the time. (See ‘Buddhaghosa’ in
> U.P.)
> 
> Whenever I find any discrepancy or something which doesn’t make sense, it
> always turns out to be my ignorance that’s the problem, not the ancient
> commentators. I understand that this is a minority view;-).
> .
	
33619

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt 1 right view

Dear Philip and friends,
Philip, thank you very much. I liked the conceit part, we also talked about
it in Bgk, there is conceit even when thinking: these flowers are not fresh,
I could do better. There is no end to it.
It does make a difference talking face to face to a Dhamma friend. It also
helps to consider one's own understanding more. I find that also these days
when Lodewijk and I were on a walking and dhamma holiday. We discussed the
Brahmaviharas, the disadvantage of clinging (near enemy) and the benefit of
kusala which is always accompanied by detachment. Yes, discussing makes all
the difference, quite different from writing. I read to Lodewijk quotes from
A. Sujin. I should thank you for drawing my attention to the Brahmaviharas.
I shall post little bits at a time. Looking forward to your next posts.
Sorry friends for not answering mails, I have to catch up.
Nina. 
op 04-06-2004 13:48 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> Conceit is a very natural reality. It's just coming again
> and again. Your conceit about your body. Your conceit about your
> intelligence. Whatever. Whatever, you know. That's you're a good
> writer, or you're good at mathematics, or you're good at Dhamma.
	
33620

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 11:14am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: concentration and Panna

Dear Sukin,
When we read samma samadhi, *samma* is not always of the eightfold Path. We
have to add: samma-samadhi *of the eightfold Path*. Just as in the case of
right thinking, this can also be thinking of renunciation, of non-illwill
and non-violence that is right, that is kusala, but not of the eightfold
Path. When developing samatha one sees the danger in sense objects. Panna in
vipassana realizes more subtle akusala.
Nina 
op 01-06-2004 10:11 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...:

> However, this last Saturday, I was curious
> why jhana was considered `Samma Samadhi' and not just `Kusala' or
> perhaps `Mahakusala' Samadhi? K. Sujin said that it was because jhana
> was a *development* of a kind of panna from samatha. I gather that it
> involves seeing the danger in `sense objects' and recognizing
> increasingly more subtle akusala!?
	
33621

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:23pm
Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5

Dear Nina:

> Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5
> 
> When someone attains jhåna he can be temporarily free from 
>attachment to
> sense objects, but defilements cannot be eradicated by jhåna. Only 
>the
> development of vipassanå leads to the eradication of defilements.
> When someone develops samatha, sati-sampajañña should realize the 
>difference
> between kusala citta and akusala citta, and he should realize when 
>akusala
> citta with attachment arises. Sati-sampajañña is needed and this 
>means, that
> he should not only have theoretical understanding of kusala and 
>akusala, but
> that he should be aware right at the moment when attachment arises.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This excerpt of "Perseverance in Dhamma" states out clearly all 
difference between the Jhanas and the vipassana: it's really precious 
to all serious students and practicioners of meditation.
Buddha always appointed the Jhana as the very goal of all 
practioners, as a direct derivation of all His preaching about 
Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta: one can suggest this is an open door to 
an idea of "Faith", because such confidence on Buddha teachings and 
the dilligent practice of the classified kinds of Jhana really free 
the mind of attachment, at least at Jhana's marked time.
But is it through "Faith" Buddha is conducting his teachings ? 
Not at theravada tradition! Faith has its proper place in all His 
scheme, but only the vipassana has a direct approach of these 
questions.

(Today I will not write silly jokes! I really liked this text!!!)

Mettaya, ÍCaro





He
> should also be truly motivated to be free from sense objects and to 
subdue
> attachment to them. This means that he should lead a life of 
contentment
> with little, without any entertainments, without indulging in all 
the
> pleasant things of life. If he is not a monk, his life-style should 
still be
> similar to the monk¹s way of life.
> The kasinas, disks, are among the meditation subjects of samatha 
and these
> can remind us of the goal of samatha. We discussed the Earth 
Kasina, one of
> the meditation subjects of samatha. One of the meanings of kasina is
> ³entire² or ³whole². The kasina disk or circle includes all. In the 
case of
> the earth kasina, we can be reminded that all we are attached to is 
just
> earth. When we are eating, when we go shopping and buy clothes, or 
when we
> use table and chair, we are clinging to earth. The element of earth
> represents solidity, hardness or softness. This element is present 
in all
> sense objects. One cannot attain calm by merely looking at a kasina 
and
> concentrating on it. There should be right understanding of this 
mediation
> subject and of the goal of its development.
> We read about people in the Buddha¹s time who could develop all 
stages of
> jhåna and then developed vipassanå. For them samatha was the 
foundation or
> proximate cause for insight. However, in order to be able to do so 
they had
> to acquire ³masteries² (vasí) of jhåna. We read in the 
³Visuddhimagga² (IV,
> 131): ³Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery: mastery in 
adverting,
> mastery in attaining, mastery in resolving (steadying the 
duration), mastery
> in emerging, and mastery in reviewing.² This means that jhånacitta 
had
> become very natural to them and could arise at any time. Therefore, 
it could
> become an object of insight. In order to eradicate defilements 
completely,
> insight has to be developed. The person who could attain jhåna had 
to be
> aware of the cetasikas which are jhånafactors: applied thinking 
(vitakka),
> sustained thinking (vicara), zest (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and
> concentration (ekaggata cetasika) [4].
> 
> Footnote:
> 4. The jhånafactors are the sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas that 
should be
> developed so that absorption, jhåna, can be attained.
> 
> ****
> Nina
	
33622

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 2:48pm
Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K pt 1 right view

Hello Philip, (RobK), all,

How lovely to read your conversation with RobK. Great that you had 
three uninterrupted hours! I appreciate the sharing - the internet 
is a fine method of communication, but you can't beat real face-to-
face discussion. It was a good idea to record the conversations, I 
hope you will post some more excerpts each day. With the 
discussions in Bkk, though they are taped, I more often than not, 
don't take a copy. Wrong View is a strange thing to experience - 
because it feels so Right at the time, and so much energy is 
expended defending it, and finding comfort in how many others think 
or act the same way. Then, as Right understanding grows, one 
wonders how such views could ever have been held, and the memories 
of the intense emotion felt - the utter certainty, the dosa felt at 
even the faintest suggestion of criticism - are recalled with a 
strange mixture of amusement and sadness. Looking forward to 
reading more of your conversations with Rob ...

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> 
> Hello all. Here's a first section of the talk with (interview 
of, 
> really) Rob K. 
> 
> Phil: I thought I'd begin by telling you how I approached this 
> interview. I mentioned in the e-mail that I was interested in 
right 
> effort, the 4 exertions. So I went to the Useful Posts at DSG, and 
> one of the first ones I found on right effort was you talking 
about 
> right view as being the first step. You know the Sutta about the 
> dawn…
> 
> Rob: Right, as the dawn is the harbinger of the sun, so right view 
is 
> the harbinger of the Noble Eightfold Path.
> 
> Phil: So that was a real eye-opener, and I think it's going to be 
> one of those things that really stays with me. 
> 
> Rob: Well, I'm glad. So where should we put our efforts? In fact, 
we 
> should put our effort into getting right view. 
> 
> Phil: It seems to me that compared to the other path factors, 
there'
> s room for an intellectual approach – at the beginning. 
> 
> Rob: There are many levels of right view. 
> 
> Phil: Do you think it's easier perhaps to understand wrong view as 
a 
> starting point?
> 
> Rob: Sure. If you don't understand wrong view, you'll think it's 
> right view. And when wrong view is present, people think it's 
right 
> view. Because wrong view always comes with lobha. So whenever 
people 
> have wrong view, they cannot see it. So as the understanding 
grows, 
> what you take for right view now, will probably seem very coarse. 
You 
> look back on what you thought was right was absolutely wrong. 
> 
> Phil: I can see it in my own case with the Brahma-Viharas. Now I 
can 
> see it was wrong. But I have a kind of faith that if we stay open 
to 
> the teaching and we find the right friends who can help us correct 
> our views You warn about the lobha related to Dhamma. But doesn't 
> the attachment that comes from your interest in Dhamma – if you 
are 
> open, and have the right friends – isn't it inevitably going to 
lead 
> you towards right understanding?
> 
> Rob: From what I can see in Thailand. I see a lot of people that 
come 
> to listen to Khun Sujin, even people who come to listen for a long 
> time, still not having a particularly strong understanding. I mean 
> there are people with strong understanding, but I still see people 
> who are with her a long time, and it's still very intellectual. So 
I 
> don't think we can make a rule about that. 
> 
> Phil: But even the intellectual understanding in one lifetime 
could 
> be the condition for true understanding in another lifetime. 
> 
> Rob: Sure. Intellectual understanding is not to be devalued. But 
if 
> you want to be very deep at all unless it's related to what there 
> (there is at?) the moment. Unless lobha is seen as lobha. If 
you're 
> just going along in you're very satisfied way, "Yeah, I'm at the 
> Dhamma Study Group, I've got the right understanding" and you're 
> feeling very proud about that. You're not seeing conceit. And you'
> re not seeing lobha at the moment. Then actually you're not 
gaining 
> that much. You'll gain a little bit from that intellectual 
> understanding, but it'll remain very (inaudible) 
> 
> Phil: That's something I'm aware of. Conceit about beginning to 
> understand Abhidhamma, all the terminology.
> 
> Rob: Well if you're aware of it, that's OK. That's understanding. 
> I mean, people who are conceited won't even know they're 
conceited. 
> The really conceited person does not think they're conceited. The 
> person who's very conceited can't admit to it. I was talking to a 
> few people in Thailand. A group of officials, very keen on 
> Abhidhamma, just starting to learn about it. I said to one of them 
> that I have conceit sometimes when I study Abhidhamma. And this 
lady 
> was very sincere and said "Oh, whenever you think about Dhamma or 
> whenever you hear Dhamma you must never have conceit." And why did 
> she think that? Because she had some ideal of the way things 
should 
> be. And she's not actually aware of the realities of the present 
> moment. Conceit is a very natural reality. It's just coming again 
> and again. Your conceit about your body. Your conceit about your 
> intelligence. Whatever. Whatever, you know. That's you're a good 
> writer, or you're good at mathematics, or you're good at Dhamma. 
> 
> Phil: And that's not eradicated until… (scrambling to remember) 
> until…
> 
> Rob: Until Arahat. But there has to be awareness of it, or we'll 
> never become an Arahat…
> 
> Phil: So the awareness is there and….eradicate I think of as 
pulling 
> something out, finally removing it, but there's the loosening of 
the 
> roots
> 
> Rob: Yeah, when we talk about eradication it's a very long process 
> of eradication. I mean, I sometimes read some internet groups, and 
> they think of becoming a sotapanna as some mystical thing. So you 
get 
> people saying. "Well, don't worry too much about annata, about 
> trying to understand annata, because it's very hard. Once you 
become 
> a sotapanna you'll understand annata. (lol) but to become a 
> sotapanna, it's the process of understanding annata step by step. 
> That's what becoming a sotapanna means. Finally at the point when 
> right view is really correct, then you become a sotapanna. So it's 
a 
> very gradual process. 
> 
> (end of pt 1)
> 
> 
> Metta,
> Phil
	
33623

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 5:59pm
Subject: Translation of panna

Dear DSGers

The 2004 edition of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics is now available 
free online at http://jbe.gold.ac.uk and includes a thought-provoking 
academic-style article by Ethan Mills entitled "Cultivation of Moral 
Concern in Theravada Buddhism: Toward a Theory of the relation 
between Tranquility and Insight". In the article, he cites Damien 
Keown as holding the view that 'panna' is often mistranslated but 
really means "the knowledge of facts", something less than "wisdom".

I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition 
as "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very 
wide field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is 
an "intuitive knowledge".

What does that mean? Any thoughts?

With best wishes
Andrew
	
33624

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 9:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Translation of panna

Andrew: "I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition as
"'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide
field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is an
"intuitive knowledge". 
What does that mean? Any thoughts?"

Hi Andrew,

I think "intuitive" means seeing the reality of anicca, dukkha, anatta
and "knowledge of facts" means understanding the concepts. Another
player in this arena is belief (ditthi). Ditthi is a view, another kind
of seeing. 

Larry
	
33625

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 9:14pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Nina / Sarah / others,

I would like to summarize the recent points made on the heart base 
(hadayavatthu):

On page 144 of In CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:

According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical 
support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense 
consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their 
bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly 
mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, 
simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element 
and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, 
subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity 
situated within the physical heart.
<end quote>

I believe that the commentary that Bhikkhu Bodhi is referring to is 
Vism VIII 111-113:
This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour of the back 
of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a lotus bud 
with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is smooth 
outside and inside it is like the interior of a kosatakin (loofah 
gourd). In those who possess understanding, it is a little expanded; 
in those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it 
there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a 
pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind 
element and mind-consciousness element occur. That it one of greedy 
temperament is red; that in one of hating temperament is black; that 
it one of deluded temperament is like water that meat has been washed 
in; that in one of speculative temperament is like lentil soup in 
colour; that in one of faithful temperament is the colour of [yellow] 
kanikara flowers; that in one of understanding temperament is limpid, 
clear, unturbid, bright, pure, like a washed gem of pure water and it 
seems to shine. As to direction, it lies in the upper direction. As 
to location, it is to be found in the middle between the two breasts, 
inside the body. As to delimitation, it is bounded by what appertains 
to heart.
<end quote>

It is my understanding (sorry, no primary reference) that in 
classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the 
heart. This was because it was clear that sense data moved about the 
body and the only thing that the ancient Indians could see as moving 
in the body was blood. Since all blood makes its way back to the 
heart, it was believed that the mind was centred in the heart.

In my opinion, the fact that the canonical Abhidhamma did not slip 
into a common understanding of the day and avoided the issue by 
saying "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-
consciousness element occur" really impresses me. It suggests to me 
that the author of the Patthana knew that the heart was not centre of 
the mind but did not want to enter into that argument that would 
distract from the point of the Abhidhamma.

Some modern-day thinkers may want to replace "heart" with "brain" 
or "nervous system". I do not agree. Consider the rebirth linking 
(patisandhi) citta or the cittas which immediately follow the 
patisandhi citta. What is their physical base? Organs such as the 
heart, brain or nervous system are still not formed, so it cannot be 
any of these. I still prefer the wording of the Patthana, "that 
matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
element occur".

In summary, my position is:
- The author of the Patthana got it right
- An unnamed commentator applied the prevalent cardio-centric model 
of the mind and identified the heart as the physical base for the 
mind element and mind consciousness
- Buddhaghosa included this incorrect concept of heart in his 
Visuddhimagga

Comments?

Metta,
Rob M :-)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Hi Sarah and Rob M,
> I fully endorse Sarah's statement about Buddhaghosa. Right, we 
better point
> the finger to ourselves when we do not understand.
> I think that when we study carefully and quietly the points where 
people,
> even wellknown scholars, critize Buddhaghosa, we can find out that 
such
> controversies are quite unnecessary.
> I would like to clear up any criticism of Buddhaghosa, any doubt 
about
> whether he is wrong, even in minor points. And for the Pali I can 
ask for
> help from Suan as I did before.
> Nina. 
> op 03-06-2004 09:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:
> 
> > S: Objection!!I don't understand B.Bodhi to have suggested that
> > `Buddhaghosa got it wrong.' As I understand, in his comment he is 
giving a
> > very brief summary of the detailed commentary note which goes to 
pains to
> > show the reasons for `its reasonableness'. The orthodox Theravada
> > tradition (including the Buddhist Councils as I understand) 
includes the
> > Visuddhimagga and other ancient Pali commentaries. Buddhaghosa 
was a
> > compiler of ancient commentaries -- as you agree -- brought to 
Sri lanka
> > by the great arahant Mahinda. His compilation work was under the 
scrutiny
> > of the great arahants in Sri Lanka at the time. 
(See `Buddhaghosa' in
> > U.P.)
> > 
> > Whenever I find any discrepancy or something which doesn't make 
sense, it
> > always turns out to be my ignorance that's the problem, not the 
ancient
> > commentators. I understand that this is a minority view;-).
> > .
	
33626

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 5:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Translation of panna

Hi, Larry (and Andrew) -

In a message dated 6/5/04 12:04:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... 
writes:

> Andrew: "I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition as
> "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide
> field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is an
> "intuitive knowledge". 
> What does that mean? Any thoughts?"
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> I think "intuitive" means seeing the reality of anicca, dukkha, anatta
> and "knowledge of facts" means understanding the concepts. Another
> player in this arena is belief (ditthi). Ditthi is a view, another kind
> of seeing. 
> 
> Larry
> 
=======================
I suspect that "intuitive knowledge" refers to direct cognitive 
understanding that does not involve reasoning. To check on the correctness of my 
view on this, I just did a dictionary look-up, and the article seems to confirm 
my understanding. It is the following:
_____________________________
Main Entry: in·tu·i·tion
Pronunciation: "in-tu-'wi-sh&n, -tyu-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English intuycyon, from Late Latin intuition-, intuitio act 
of contemplating, from Latin intuEri to look at, contemplate, from in- + 
tuEri to look at
Date: 15th century
1 : quick and ready insight 
2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained 
by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or 
cognition without evident rational thought and inference 
- in·tu·i·tion·al /-'wish-n&l, -'wi-sh&-n&l/ adjective
---------------------------------------------------

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33627

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 10:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal meditation IS NOT mandatory for attainment of Liberation

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:

> Likewise, teaching Dhamma, listening, repeating, reflecting, jhana
> development can all be immediate supporting conditions, depending on the
> accumulated pa~n~naa at the time. The Buddha never told us what to do or
> not do, he taught about truths and conditions and anatta as I see
it. For
> those who can attain jhana like the many followers in the Buddha?s time,
> it can be a natural decisive support condition for some with sufficient
> wisdom of the path. If we were to attempt to follow as a practice or to
> try to memorize texts for that matter or read Dhamma thinking it will in
> itself lead to ?release?, these would be example of silabbattaparama
(rite
> and ritual adherence) and a view of self being able to control
conditions
> as I see it.

Hi, Sarah!
What you're saying make s a lot of sense, and keeps one from having a
mental map of supporting conditions that is black and white. You are
suggesting, as I think Buddha would approve, that we not hold onto any
set view, while still understanding the principles that should be in
play. If any of the things you mentioned which could be a supporting
condition, including meditation i assume, are right for the
individual, he or she will find their way to that supporting condition
or action if conditions and propensity allow. Would you say that I
have put that in a way that accords with what you have said?

Best,
Robert Ep.
	
33628

From: Dhammaasoka <dasoka@n...> 
Date: Fri Jun 4, 2004 10:55pm
Subject: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-)

Dear RobM, Sarah and friends,

Thank you very much, Rob and Sarah! You are so helpful. I will present
your reply to my friend during our next meeting. My friends and I are
from Malaysia, a small town named Kajang in the State of Selangor.We
just newly form the study group about 5 months ago and we only have
meeting every two weeks. 

Basically, our mother language is Mandarin, so most of the books that
we have and referred are in Mandarin. We are not really familiar with
the English terms and might need to take some time to dig into the
English version of Visuddhimagga and get the terms. However, some of
the Mandarin version of books do include the pali terms. I have
searched in the internet to get related topics and have downloaded the
"Abhidhamma in daily life" by Nina and other materials too. Need time
to read and digest them. We must say we are quite new and really need
guidance from other `experts' :-)

It really shock me the RobM is in/ From malaysia and teaching
Abhidhamma? May I know where do you teach Abhidhamma, RobM?

There are a few more questions, some are derived from RobM reply and
some ae related questions. Hope you and friends in the group can help
to clarify. Thanks.

1. According to Pa Auk Sayadaw, in order to determine the cakkhu
pasaada in the kalaapa, we need to check for the colour from the
nearby kalaapa impinges upon the pasaada. Is the colour in the kalaapa
is a point of light or an image? When we see things from outside, is
it the colour from out there impinges upon our eye or the colour from
the nearby kalaapa? (Sorry, Sarah, I know you have answered this
question, just need more understanding about this)

2. If the eye-consciousness arises at the eye, is it mean that the eye
door process happens at the eye too, or is it happen at the hadayaruupa?

3. In the vatthusangaha part from "A Comprehensive Manual of
Abhidhamma", santiirana and the rest of (manovin~n~aan.a-dhaatu) is
said to be stronger than mano-dhaatu and sampaticchana in the sense of
regconising the aaramman.a because they have the same vatthu as the
manovin~n~aan.a before and after. But the santiirana has different
vatthu with the sampaticchana and the votthapana, why is it strong? 

4. It is mentioned in one of the Pa Auk Sayadaw's books that when the
aaramman.a (colour) impinges the eye, the same aarammana arises in the
hadayaruupa at the same time. How does it happen?

5. What is the relationship within the patisandhi and the kammaja
ruupa? Does the patisandhi affecting the kammaja ruupa? What is the
cause of ahetu and hetu vipaka consciousness? Is it cause by the
inspecting consciousness? When the patisandhi is one of the eight
mahaavipaaka, how does the hetu-vipaka-consciousness take place?

6. Is there any other effect or function of tadaaramman.a besides
registering in terms of causing vipaka or accumulating habits or
causing potential of becoming habitual aaramman.a ? 


With metta,
Lee
	
33629

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:16am
Subject: Re: Playing around with the past

Hi Azita,

---------------
Az: > Hello; missed meeting up with you again last Cooran time, 
but maybe I can make the next one if I know well in advance when it 
is.
----------

Excellent! As you know, we can't set a date until we hear if, and 
when, Robert K is going to visit. But you will be the first to know.

-------------------
Az: > I like your last statement here and want to add my '2 cents 
worth'...
-------------------

Thanks, when I wrote it I liked the sound of it (quite pithy) but, 
increasingly, I realised that it was also very true. 

--------------------
<snip> 
Az: > The meaningful is the fact that I've heard the dhamma and can 
understand, at least some of the time, that reality cannot 
be 'manipulated' to fit in with what I want, no matter how hard I 
try. so to accept this present moment for what it is, does take a 
large amount of patience, courage and good cheer and a degree of 
understanding.
----------------

I see what you mean: wanting to stop wanting and trying to stop 
trying won't get us anywhere: we need understanding. In the 
meantime, p, c and g c. 

------------------
'We are never free of Abhidhamma. People who have never heard of 
it are not free of it; people who have heard but hate it are not 
free of Abhidhamma; people who love it but never follow it and vice 
versa, are never free of it!!'
[from my notebook dated 8/3/2519 B.E.]

-----------

I'd like a copy of that notebook: a great source of pith AND 
substance. :-)

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33630

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:22am
Subject: Re: Playing around with the Past

Hi Andrew,

----------------
A: > KenH and Azita,
Thanks for your posts on this topic. 
----------------

No worries, always happy to have the last word :-)

----------------------
A: > This exercise does seem to me to rest heavily upon self-view, 
but is obviously intended for use in the presence of a virulent form 
of resentment. >
-----------------------

Yes, but remember the rule: rather than a prescribed course of 
action to be followed, this is a described course of action to be 
understood. 
------------------------
A: >
"I visited all quarters with my mind
Nor found I any dearer than myself;
Self is likewise to every other dear;
Who loves himself will never harm another (S.i,75; Ud.47)"

This, I think, points to the importance of remembering that others 
are just like "me" in all basic respects.
----------------

And the remembrance that `others are just like me' points to the 
meaning of what? Adosa? Alobha? Panna? I can't decide which. 
However, I do think that conventional morality lessons, when given 
by the Buddha, are meant to prepare us for understanding paramattha 
dhammas -- of one kind or another.

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33631

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part I

Hi Lee,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" <dasoka@n...> 
wrote:
> My friends and I are
> from Malaysia, a small town named Kajang in the State of Selangor.We
> just newly form the study group about 5 months ago and we only have
> meeting every two weeks. 

=====

I know Kajang. I pass by it almost every week on the North-South 
Highway on my way to and from KLIA. I must admit, though, I have 
never left the highway to visit.

=====
> 
> Basically, our mother language is Mandarin, so most of the books 
that
> we have and referred are in Mandarin. We are not really familiar 
with
> the English terms and might need to take some time to dig into the
> English version of Visuddhimagga and get the terms. However, some of
> the Mandarin version of books do include the pali terms. I have
> searched in the internet to get related topics and have downloaded 
the
> "Abhidhamma in daily life" by Nina and other materials too. Need 
time
> to read and digest them. We must say we are quite new and really 
need
> guidance from other `experts' :-)

=====

I have a spare copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of 
Abhidhamma" in Chinese if that would be of use to you. It was 
translated by the Penang Buddhist Association.

=====
> 
> It really shock me the RobM is in/ From malaysia and teaching
> Abhidhamma? May I know where do you teach Abhidhamma, RobM?

=====

I am Canadian, born in Toronto where I realized that I was a Buddhist 
twenty-five years ago. I spent some time in Jakarta and Singapore 
before settling in KL thirteen years ago. On Sunday mornings, I 
teach "Abhidhamma for Beginners" at Brickfields (home to Dr. K. Sri 
Dhammananda). This is a one year course.

As it turns out, I will be giving a five week Abhidhamma course each 
Saturday afternoon in July at Nalanda Buddhist Society in Taman Sri 
Serdang (not far from Kajang). This course will be in English 
(natrually), but most of the audience speak Mandarin. Many of your 
questions are quite technical and this is more of an introductory 
class, but you and your friends would probably enjoy it. Nalanda is a 
great place and offer Metta Meditation in Mandarin (many of the 
devotees are students from UPM).

=====
> 
> There are a few more questions, some are derived from RobM reply and
> some ae related questions. Hope you and friends in the group can 
help
> to clarify. Thanks.
> 
> 1. According to Pa Auk Sayadaw, in order to determine the cakkhu
> pasaada in the kalaapa, we need to check for the colour from the
> nearby kalaapa impinges upon the pasaada. Is the colour in the 
kalaapa
> is a point of light or an image? When we see things from outside, is
> it the colour from out there impinges upon our eye or the colour 
from
> the nearby kalaapa? (Sorry, Sarah, I know you have answered this
> question, just need more understanding about this)

=====

A "visible object" is that which presents itself at the eye door in a 
small fraction of a second. As an analogy, visible object is like a 
single frame from a movie film. Each frame is seen as a visible 
object and the mind merges them together into a continuous stream.

After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental 
states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa (visible 
object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process 
(tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa into 
a mental object". The mind may then go and deal with other sense 
doors before coming back and grabbing another visible object from the 
eye-door. 

A mind-door process then grasps the object as a whole (samudayagahika)
and "glues together" distinct "frames" to create a perception of 
unity. It is at this early stage in the process that the perversion 
of perception (sannavipallasa) takes place; more on this can be found 
in the commentaries to the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1).

There are then mind-door processes that recognize the colour 
(vannasallakkhana). I believe that the point that Pa Auk Sayadaw is 
making is that the recognizing of colour happens after multiple 
distinct "frames" have been "glued together".

The following mind-door processes grasp the shape (vatthugahika), 
recognize the shape (vatthusallakkhana), grasp the name (namagahika) 
and recognize the name (namasallakkhana). 

=====
> 
> 2. If the eye-consciousness arises at the eye, is it mean that the 
eye
> door process happens at the eye too, or is it happen at the 
hadayaruupa?

=====

Only the eye-consciousness citta arises at the eye. The remaining 
cittas in the eyd-door process have hadayarupa as base.

=====
> 
> 3. In the vatthusangaha part from "A Comprehensive Manual of
> Abhidhamma", santiirana and the rest of (manovin~n~aan.a-dhaatu) is
> said to be stronger than mano-dhaatu and sampaticchana in the sense 
of
> regconising the aaramman.a because they have the same vatthu as the
> manovin~n~aan.a before and after. But the santiirana has different
> vatthu with the sampaticchana and the votthapana, why is it strong? 

=====

The sequence of the first few cittas in a sense door process (very 
great object) is as follows:
1. Past Bhavanga (base = mind, object = object from past existence)
2. Vibrating Bhavanga (base = mind, object = object from past 
existence)
3. Arresting Bhavanga (base = mind, object = object from past 
existence)
4. Five Door Adverting (base = mind, object = new rupa)
5. Eye Consciousness (base = eye, object = new rupa)
6. Receiving Consciousness (base = mind, object = new rupa)
7. Investigating Consciousness (base = mind, object = new rupa)
8. Determining Consciousness (base = mind, object = new rupa)

In this process, the two cittas which involve a very weak grasp on 
the object are the Five Door Adverting and the two possible Receiving 
Consciousness (one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). These are the 
mind-element (manodhatu) cittas. The remaining cittas (except for the 
ten sense door consciousness cittas) are all mind-consciousness 
element (manovinnanadhatu) and are strong because the cittas arising 
before and after all have the same base.

The Five Door Adverting Citta involves a weak grasp because moving 
from citta #3 -> #4 in the process involves a change of object (past 
object -> new rupa). The two possible Receiving Consciousness involve 
a weak grasp because moving from citta #5 -> #6 in the process 
involves a change of base (eye -> mind).

Why do you say that the Investigating Consciousness (Santirana) has a 
different base (vatthu) with the Receiving Consciousness 
(Sampaticchana) and the Determining Consciousness (Votthapana)?

=====
> 
> 4. It is mentioned in one of the Pa Auk Sayadaw's books that when 
the
> aaramman.a (colour) impinges the eye, the same aarammana arises in 
the
> hadayaruupa at the same time. How does it happen?

=====

Arammana is object (colour is vanna). An object (rupa) arises for the 
duration of 17 cittas. If we look at the numbered sequence above, we 
can see that the first three cittas "ignored" the new rupa. The 
fourth and sixth to seventeenth cittas access the object through the 
hadayarupa while the fifth citta accesses the object through the eye 
base.

=====
> 
> 5. What is the relationship within the patisandhi and the kammaja
> ruupa? Does the patisandhi affecting the kammaja ruupa? What is the
> cause of ahetu and hetu vipaka consciousness? Is it cause by the
> inspecting consciousness? When the patisandhi is one of the eight
> mahaavipaaka, how does the hetu-vipaka-consciousness take place?
> 
> 6. Is there any other effect or function of tadaaramman.a besides
> registering in terms of causing vipaka or accumulating habits or
> causing potential of becoming habitual aaramman.a ? 
> 
=====

Sorry Lee, I am short of time today and these remaining questions 
require more than a one-sentence answer. I will try to get some time 
tomorrow to answer the remaining questions (or perhaps somebody else 
will jump in). One clarification, what do you mean by "inspecting 
consciousness"? 

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33632

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 3:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part II

Hi Lee,

I have time to sneak in one more answer...

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" <dasoka@n...> 
wrote:
> 5. What is the relationship within the patisandhi and the kammaja
> ruupa? Does the patisandhi affecting the kammaja ruupa? 

=====

At the time of death, kamma-born kalapas no longer arise starting 
with the seventeenth citta preceding the death citta (to be 
technical, it is the arising portion of this citta). Kamma-born 
kalapas that arose earlier occur until the death citta and then cease 
together with it. Following that, the kalapas born of citta and 
nutriment cease. Then the body remains a mass of inanimate material 
phenomena born of temperature and continues as such until the corpse 
is reduced to dust.

To be technical, the arising of the cuti citta is the last moment of 
arising of mind-born matter. The cessation of the cuti citta is the 
cessation of the kamma-born matter and the last moment of arising of 
nutriment-born matter.

Immediately following the dissolution of the death citta, there 
arises in a new existence the rebirth-linking (patisandhi) citta, 
having the same object as that in the final cognitive process of the 
previous life. This rebirth citta is a resultant citta produced by 
the kamma responsible for the objects apprehended during the final, 
but crucial, moments of consciousness prior to death. With its 
arising, this same kamma produces kalapas which set off a chain 
reaction by generating more kalapas born of the internal fire-element 
and nutriment and thereafter by combination with the external fire-
element and nutriment. In the meantime, the cittas following the 
rebirth-citta will also start to produce kalapas, all this leading 
eventually to an intricate as a fetus, or the spontaneous body of the 
new being (hell being, spirit, Deva or Brahma).

To be technical, the arising of the patisandhi citta is the first 
moment of arising of kamma-born matter. The presence (after arising, 
before falling away) of the patisandhi citta is the moment of arising 
of temperature-born matter and the arising of the citta following the 
patisandhi citta is the first moment of arising of citta-born matter.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33633

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 4:26am
Subject: Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

?@?@Talk with Rob pt.2 

I was telling Rob about how I came to be interested in Abhidhamma.

Phil: Soon after coming to the group I read a post by Jon about how 
studying Abhidhamma before studying the suttana is recommended.

Rob. In Sri Lanka in the old days it?fs generally believed the 
monks used to start with the Abhidhamma (couldn?ft catch the next 
word in the title) which is like a summary of the Abhidhamma, then 
move on to everything else, because that single book gives you the 
basis to having better understanding.

Phil: And that?fs what happened next. I took that hint, and I 
opened ?gAbhidhamma in Daily Life?h and almost immediately I
was 
hooked. But at the beginning it was definitely conceit. There was 
this attraction to the language and terminology and this sense that 
it was a difficult book. But that got me in, that drew me in.

Rob: There was also wisdom there. I mean, there?fs probably 
understanding because of your past accumulations from past lives. I 
mean, immediately there is wisdom, and lobha about that wisdom, you 
see. Alternating. It doesn?ft mean there was no wisdom. It
doesn?ft 
mean it was all lobha. I mean, for someone else who hasn?ft had
that 
past life experience, those accumulations, they might read it and say 
?gwhat rubbish?h and never look at it again. 

Phil: That?fs what?fs happened when I?fve tried to
share it with 
folks at other groups, even Theravadin folks. There hasn?ft been 
anyone yet who..

Rob: Well, it?fs very rare. And this is a sign of the decline of 
Buddhism. And it?fs all predicted by the Buddha. You can?ft
do 
anything about it, other than make it available for people like you. 

Phil So, in any case, I found that I was in this almost feverish 
state. I was waking up in the middle of the night and reading it like 
I used to read the Hardy Boys when I was a kid?c

Rob: Well, there?fs right effort there too. There might be
conceit 
and lobha, but there?fs also right effort there. That?fs
right effort 
it. It?fs not because you decided, right, for two weeks I?fm
going to 
have right effort. I mean, the conditions were there. Suddenly there 
were enough conditions for understanding and right effort to come 
there. I mean, someone else could say ?gright! I?fm going to
have 
right effort?h and do completely the wrong thing. But you?fre
doing 
the right thing.

Phil: I?fve also learned that right effort is what rises when we
make the effort to really penetrate realities in the moment. 

Rob: There can be wrong effort too, at that moment. It depends if 
there is panna there or not. 

Phil: So what excited me was - I?fd read of annata hundreds of
times 
but I?fd never had any degree of understanding. But suddenly it 
seemed the Abhidhamma laid out the map to beginning to understand 
annata. 

Rob: Right. Abhidhamma has one flavour. The flavour of annata. 
That?fs what it says. One taste. One flavour. 

Phil: And I think you say understanding annata is the place to begin.

Rob: Yeah. 

(end of part 2)
	
33634

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 5:16am
Subject: Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
[...]
> In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly 
> mentioned. [...]

[...]
>Consider the rebirth linking 
> (patisandhi) citta or the cittas which immediately follow the 
> patisandhi citta. What is their physical base? Organs such as the 
> heart, brain or nervous system are still not formed, so it cannot be 
> any of these. I still prefer the wording of the Patthana, "that 
> matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind-consciousness 
> element occur".

[...]

thanks for summarizing the hart thing.
seems, we have no idea what Buddhaghosa is talking about.
:o)

btw, why do this first citta (patisandhi) has to have phisical base?

metta,
Agrios
	
33635

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 0:42am
Subject: The Thread to Freedom !

Friends:
What is the Cause of Release ?

Morality causes right action.
Right Action causes freedom from remorse.
Freedom from regrets causes joy.
Joy causes rapture.
Rapture causes calm satisfaction.
Calmness causes happiness.
Happiness causes concentration.
Concentration causes seeing & knowing reality.
Vision & Knowledge of the real causes disgust.
Disgust causes disillusion through understanding.
Disillusion causes detachment, relinquishment & release.
Release causes Freedom by breaking the clinging ...
Release causes Peace by the stilling of craving ...

Release causes Bliss by ending the suffering ...

Release is thus the final product, profit &
advantage of good & clever behaviour!
Morality is thus the foundation of Freedom!
Right conduct is therefore the origin of Bliss!



What is then the Source of Gladness ?

When being thus taught the true Saddhamma;
When thus teaching the true Saddhamma;
When thus reviewing the true Saddhamma;
When thus reciting the true Saddhamma;
When thus seeing signs of the true Saddhamma;
the inspiration gained causes Gladness to arise !!!
Gladness makes joyous rapture arise. 
Rapture satisfies mind until calm tranquility pervades.
When truly calmed, a happy pleasure is experienced.
Dwelling in Ease, mind is composed, focused & concentrated.
Such stilled, fixed & anchored, yet effectively penetrating mind;
Finds Determination ...
Finds Will of Zeal ...
Finds Enthusiastic Energy ...
To eliminate mental bonds & defilements not yet fully destroyed ...
To reach many yet unattained infinite depths of Peace ...
To win the yet unsurpassed bliss of ultimate Freedom ... 


Yeah !


Sources: 
The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya V 313 + III 20:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/index.html
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552






All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma




33636

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati

Dear Azita,
Thank you for sharing with us your notebook, I like to encourage you to do
this more often. 
op 02-06-2004 13:17 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...:

A: The intelligent, skillful way to live is the way of the Buddha.
> Firstly, by following the precepts - with right understanding - one
> can live wholesomely.
> We do many absent-minded actions in the one day.
N: Yes, when we consider metta the observing of the precepts can come very
naturally. We do not consider the precepts as rules that are imposed upon
us, that restrict our lives, but we can see them in a very positive way, as
I try to explain in my series on Brahma viharas. Sila is inspiring,
uplifting, encouraging.
A: The most skillful thing we can do with our bodies is to use it to
> give useful things to other beings ,to give kindness when and
> wherever we can, to help other people when there are opportunities -
> not to let these opportunities fall by - bec then its too late.
N: I appreciate more and more all these things you mention. They seem not
very impressive, but they are important. Being quick to act, I learnt so
much from A. Sujin and the other Dhamma friends.
A: If we mix up the skillful with the unskillful , how are we ever
> going to know which to develop and which to eradicate.
N: We need truthfulness, so that we can rectify our views on kusala and
akusala, and that in the practice of daily life. That is kusala kamma of
rectifying or straightening one's views.
A: Social reform comes about by reforming oneself and once one
> realises that there is no self, then one's idea of social reform
> changes. One realizes that one is not as powerful as formerly
> believed.
N: Metta and all kusala dhammas are cetasikas, non-self. When shall we
really understand this, not merely in theory?
Thank you,
Nina.
	

 	 

	
33637

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, ch 3, no 6

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 6

We read in the scriptures that there were disciples who developed jhåna and
vipassanå and disciples who developed only vipassanå.
The objects of vipassanå are whatever reality appears in daily life through
one of the six doorways. Vipassanå is developed in stages, and in the
beginning of its development, the different objects and doorways are not
clearly separated. One confuses visible object which is rúpa and seeing
which is nåma. It seems that we can see and think or see and hear at the
same time. When the first stage of vipassanå is reached the characteristics
of nåma and rúpa are clearly distinguished and appear as such through the
mind-door. So long as we have not reached that stage we do not know
precisely what the mind-door is. Nåma is experienced through the mind-door
and rúpa is experienced through its appropriate sense-door and after that
through the mind-door. During the moments of insight it is known what the
mind-door is. 
When vipassanå is developed it is also accompanied by samådhi,
concentration. Samådhi or ekaggatå cetasika, one-pointedness, arises with
each citta and its function is focussing on one object. Usually its
characteristic does not appear. Samådhi becomes stronger as paññå develops.
At the moment of insight knowledge, there is momentary concentration,
khanika samådhi. Samådhi performs its function of concentration of the
eightfold Path. When vipassanå is further developed, dhammas can be realized
as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self.
We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Ch 2, § 71)
that the Buddha said that whoever of the monks could not understand the
arising and destruction, the satisfaction and the misery of the sixfold
sphere of contact, did not live the righteous life and was far from this
Dhamma and Discipline. One of the monks said that he could not understand
these things and was in despair. The Buddha said to him:

³Now, what do you think, monk? Do you regard these thus: ŒThis is mine. This
am I. This is myself¹ ?²
³No indeed, lord.²
³Well said, monk. And herein, monk, by right understanding as it really is:
ŒThis eye is not mine. This am I not. This is not myself,¹ the eye will
have been rightly seen. That is the end of dukkha. So also as regards
mind... That is the end of dukkha.¹

****
Nina
	
33638

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39am
Subject: Brahmaviharas, no 1

Dear friends,
Brahmaviharas, I

I shall quote from the tape which is a lecture on the Brahmaviharas given by
A. Sujin to police officers. They took a great interest in the practice of
the Brahma-viharas while performing their duty as police officer. I shall
also quote from her book on the Perfections, and I shall add what Lodewijk
and I discussed about the Brahmaviharas.
In her lecture A. Sujin pointed out the danger of akusala that increases
each day, and she explained that the Brahma- viharas can condition calm of
citta in daily life. We have learnt about akusala sila, unwholesome deeds
through body and speech, but how are our thoughts? We should not be
neglectful with regard to our actions, speech and thoughts. A. Sujin
stressed truthfulness or sincerity and resolution.
N: we should be truthful as to our cittas: is the citta kusala citta or
akusala citta? Do we take for kusala citta what is in reality akusala citta?
We need determination for all kinds of kusala. When panna sees the benefit
of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala this will condition the arising of
kusala citta. 
A. Sujin stressed the connection between sila and metta. Sila includes not
only abstention from akusala kamma, it also includes paying respect to those
who deserve it and helping others, rendering service.
I quote from A. Sujin¹s ³Wholesome Deeds²: ²The citta can be respectful by
abstaining from hurting or harming others through body, speech or mind.²
N: When there is metta we do not disturb the happiness of others or cause
them to be in trouble. We do not think of ourselves expecting friendship
from others. Metta or friendship arises with the citta, and if we expect
something for ourselves there is no true metta. Thus, we need truthfulness,
sincerity at all times.
The near ennemy of metta is attachment. We may take for metta what is
selfish love. If someone sees another person as object of attachment he has
no respect for that person, he does not help him to have kusala citta. He
harms himself and the other person. He also lacks respect of the Buddha who
taught the way leading to the elimination of akusala and the development of
right understanding.
The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I find an
inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, speech and
thoughts. When there is metta there are no conditions for akusala through
body, speech and mind. We shall not hurt or harm others through actions or
speech, we shall abstain from akusala kamma. We consider other people as
true friends and that means that we shall help them to be free from what is
harmful and dangerous. We shall help them to have kusala citta.

***** 
Nina.
	
33639

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:44am
Subject: Patthana Dhamma & Daily Life

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There have been appeared on web page 35 and page 36 of 'Patthana Dhamma'. Currently, the discussion of patthana dhamma is on arammana paccaya.

The page 35 can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana35.html . In that page, the first page is linked. If pages are viewed from the first page which can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html , it will be a bit easier. Messages are not too long to manage.

The page 36 is about ruparamma or visual object and its resultant dhamma cakkhuvinnana citta and their relation. This can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana36.html .

Some may think that patthana is not necessary to deeply understand. But actually patthana dhamma can be seen in our daily life and if patthana dhamma can be understood, then the practice of dhamma will be at ease and there will not be much difficulty.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing




	
33640

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:19am
Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The journey has been started. That is the journey to nibbana. We are approaching the Path which leads to nibbana. Some of members may have been on the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path while others are just approaching.

Noble Eightfold Path comprises eight components as the name implies. These eight components are right view, right thinking, right action, right speech, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

Saying so seems very simple and if not well learned, these statements may stand as blank words. But in each word of these eight components has full essence and they do need to be understood.

Right view to start with is easy to say. But what is right view in real term? If such a question arises, it may be difficult to answer. This 'right view' is taken from translation of Pali term 'samma-ditthi'.

Samma means 'right' , 'decent' , 'genuine' , 'true' and 'ditthi' here means 'view' or 'the way that is seen'. Samma-ditthi is right view and it removes wrong views at all cost. As long as right view is there, no wrong view can arise.

Right view in a single moment is the act of pannindriya cetasika or panna or wisdom that associated with citta while viewing things. What is the right view? It looks at and understands that there are sufferings and knows what are suffering. If sufferings are not understood, then there is no right view.

Right view understands that there is a cause that creates all sorts of sufferings. If the existence of this cause is not seen then any view without this is all wrong view and right view cannot exist in this instance.

Right view understands that there is cessation of all sorts of sufferings. This cessation or extinguishment of all fire of defilements is nibbana. If this existence of nibbana is not understood, there will not be right view.

And right view knows that there is a unique and single Path leading to cessation of all sufferings. When the existence of this single Path is not understood, there will not be right view. The belief that takes a path other than Noble Eightfold Path can lead to cessation of sufferings is not a right view.

We have passed on this several times and we now have the right view. Having right view leads us to right thinking or right resolve. As our view is right, all thoughts associated with right view will become right thought.

We have started the journey and our vehicle of 'understanding' has started to move forward leading to 'right thought'. 

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing 
htootintnaing@y... 








	
33641

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:40am
Subject: Re: Brahmaviharas, no 1

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:

Dear friends,
Brahmaviharas, I

N: When there is metta we do not disturb the happiness of others or 
cause them to be in trouble. We do not think of ourselves expecting 
friendship from others. 


The near ennemy of metta is attachment. We may take for metta what is
selfish love. If someone sees another person as object of attachment 
he has no respect for that person, he does not help him to have 
kusala citta. 

The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I find 
an inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, 
speech and thoughts. ... 

..true friends and that means that we shall help them to be free from 
what is harmful and dangerous. We shall help them to have kusala 
citta.

***** 
Nina.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Nina,

Thanks for this post 'Brahmaviharas no 1. I have read your 
book 'loving kindness'. I read it last year. Your messages are very 
clear. Metta is pure thing and we do not need to expect friendship 
from those who we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon as 
that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and 
attachment do not stay together. As long as metta stays in our mind, 
there is calmness and tranquility. If we are proficient, this 
calmness may lead to even absorption. By basing metta, we can step on 
mahasatipatthana and approach the Path leading to cessation of 
suffering.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33642

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:57am
Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

Hi Phil,

Reading this series with joy!

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> ?@?@Talk with Rob pt.2 
> Rob. In Sri Lanka in the old days it?fs generally believed the 
> monks used to start with the Abhidhamma (couldn?ft catch the next 
> word in the title) which is like a summary of the Abhidhamma, then 
> move on to everything else, because that single book gives you the 
> basis to having better understanding.

Rob K was talking about the Abhidhammatthasangaha by Acariya 
Anuruddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi's Pali text, translation and explanatory 
guide (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma or CMA as it often 
referred to on DSG) is a "must have" on the bookshelf of any student 
of Abhidhamma.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33643

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 1:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part III

Hi Lee,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" <dasoka@n...> 
wrote:
> What is the
> cause of ahetu and hetu vipaka consciousness? Is it cause by the
> inspecting consciousness? 

=====

There are 15 (rootless resultant) ahetu vipaka cittas:
- 5 akusala vipaka sense door consciousness: ripening of a past 
unwholesome kammic action
- 5 kusala vipaka sense door consciousness: ripening of a past 
wholesome kammic action
- 2 receiving consciousness, one akusala and one kusala: ripening of 
a past unwholesome / past wholesome kammic action
- 3 investigating consciousness, one akusala and two kusala: ripening 
of a past unwholesome / past wholesome kammic action

Within a sense door process or a mind door process, all vipaka cittas 
in that process are the result of the same past kammic action.

So one factor conditioning the arising of these cittas is past kamma 
(either akusala or kusala).

A second factor conditioning the arising of these cittas (in fact a 
factor conditioning the arising of all cittas) is the falling away of 
the previous citta. This is through proximity, contiguity, absense 
and disappearance condition.

A third factor conditioning the arising of these cittas is the 
intrinsic nature of the object of the sense door process. An 
intrinsically unpleasant object (anittha) is a condition for an 
akusala vipaka citta. An intrinsically neutral object (itta) or an 
intrinsically pleasant object (ati-ittha) is a condition for a kusala 
vipaka citta. An intrinsically pleasant object (ati-ittha) is a 
condition for an investigating citta with pleasant feeling.

In addition to their role in a sense-door citta process, two of these 
rootless cittas can also perform the function of bhavanga:
- Akusala vipaka investigating consciousness: bhavanga for beings in 
the four woeful planes
- Kusala vipaka investigating consciousness: bhavanga for disabled 
humans and certain earth-bound devas

The same three conditioning factors come into play to support the 
arising of bhavanga cittas:
- Kamma (in this case it is the kamma leading to rebirth)
- Falling away of previous citta (in the case of a patisandhi citta, 
it is the falling away of the cuti citta from the previous existence)
- Nature of object (taken from previous existence; may be kamma, sign 
of kamma or sign of destiny)

There are 21 resultant vipaka cittas with roots:
- 8 mahavipaka cittas: these are the bhavanga cittas for beings in 
human realm or sensous deva realm; they may have two roots (missing 
panna) or three roots. Beings with two roots cannot obtain jhana or 
path in this existence.
- 5 rupavacara vipaka cittas: these are the bhavanaga cittas for 
beings in the rupaloka plane of existence
- 4 arupavacara vipaka cittas: these are the bhavanga cittas for 
beings in the arupaloka plane of existence
- 4 lokuttara vikapa cittas (fruits): these are the result of path 
cittas (only arise in sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami and arahant)

The same three conditioning factors mentioned above come into play to 
support the arising of bhavanga cittas.

Fruit cittas arise immediately after the path citta in the citta 
process where one obtains a new degree of sainthood. They also arise 
in the mind of a saint (phalasamapatti process) in which case they 
follow a path citta. Another special case is the attainment of 
extinction process (nirodhasamapatti process) in which case the fruit 
citta is preceded by a jhana citta.

=====

> When the patisandhi is one of the eight
> mahaavipaaka, how does the hetu-vipaka-consciousness take place?

=====

My previous answer explains the main conditions leading to the 
arising of all bhavanga cittas (including patisandhi and including 
kamaloka, rupaloka and arupaloka).

=====
> 
> 6. Is there any other effect or function of tadaaramman.a besides
> registering in terms of causing vipaka or accumulating habits or
> causing potential of becoming habitual aaramman.a ? 

The registration citta is a vipaka citta, a result of the same kammic 
force that gave rise to the sense-door citta, receiving citta and 
investigating citta in the citta process. The function of the 
registration citta is to mark the object so that it may be noted in a 
subsequent mind door process. Objects that are not "very great" (in 
the case of sense door objects) or "clear" (in the case of mind door 
objects) do not get marked and therefore fail to support sustained 
thought. This function is only required in the kamaloka (there is no 
registration required to sustain thought in the rupaloka or arupaloka 
planes of existence).

It is the javana cittas that play the role of causing vipaka and 
accumulating habits. An object becomes habitual through natural 
decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). It is the strength of 
the volition in the javana citta which causes it to become habitual. 
None of these have anything to do with registration.

Lee, sorry if I got too technical in points...

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33644

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:33am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Translation of panna

Hi Andrew

In a common manner of thinking we might think that "knowledge of facts" is 
less than wisdom. However, I believe it is here meant as the highest type of 
wisdom. It "knows" the way things work and therefore knows the problems and 
solutions. The Buddha taught very specific things in very detailed and accurate 
ways. Sort of like an engineer of the mind and matter. 

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge that is so well learned and understood that 
it is "just with you." An expert pianist can sit down and play a piece of 
music without the need to think about it. This is because the preliminary work 
of practicing and thinking about notes, keys, etc., has been done over and over 
in the past. Same thing with riding a bike or any kind of skill. After 
we've learned how to ride a bike we can just do it "intuitively" without the need 
of thinking about how to keep balance, or pedal, or brake.

I'm sure there's other ideas out there but that's the way I see it.

TG



In a message dated 6/4/2004 6:00:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
athel60@t... writes:
Dear DSGers

The 2004 edition of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics is now available 
free online at http://jbe.gold.ac.uk and includes a thought-provoking 
academic-style article by Ethan Mills entitled "Cultivation of Moral 
Concern in Theravada Buddhism: Toward a Theory of the relation 
between Tranquility and Insight". In the article, he cites Damien 
Keown as holding the view that 'panna' is often mistranslated but 
really means "the knowledge of facts", something less than "wisdom".

I note the first sentence of Nyanatiloka's definition 
as "'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very 
wide field". It goes on to say (as I read it) that Path panna is 
an "intuitive knowledge".

What does that mean? Any thoughts?

With best wishes
Andrew


	
33645

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

Hi Philip,
very good. Just last time A. Sujin said: the Abhidhamma helps us to
understand anatta. 
Nina.
op 05-06-2004 13:26 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:

> But suddenly it 
> seemed the Abhidhamma laid out the map to beginning to understand
> annata. 
> 
> Rob: Right. Abhidhamma has one flavour. The flavour of annata.
> That?fs what it says. One taste. One flavour.
> 
> Phil: And I think you say understanding annata is the place to begin.
>
	
33646

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Playing around with the Past

Hi Ken,
op 05-06-2004 10:22 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...:

> And the remembrance that `others are just like me' points to the
> meaning of what? Adosa? Alobha? Panna? I can't decide which.
> However, I do think that conventional morality lessons, when given
> by the Buddha, are meant to prepare us for understanding paramattha
> dhammas -- of one kind or another.
N: That is why I like more and more the simple things of daily life A. Sujin
gives enlightening advices about. The application of the Dhamma and panna
takes the lead. 
Nina.
	
33647

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Rob M,
I shall now quote Tiika Vis and my comments:
The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV
> 
> 60.   13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the
> (material) support for the mind-element and for the
> mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them.
N: to observe: the Pali has: aadhaarana: the meaning is: being a container,
foundation, support, holding up. In the five khandha planes where there are
nama and rupa, cittas need a physical base, foundation. They do not arise
independently of the body. The five sense-cognitions have the sense bases as
physical support, and all the other cittas, namely, mind-element and the
mind-consciousness-element (see explanation in the other post) have as
support what is called the heartbase, an infinitely tiny rupa arising and
falling away. 
Text: It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in
dependence on
> the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of
> the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart.
N: let us first look at the footnote :
text: Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the
colour
> of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a
> lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is
> smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofah
> gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in
> those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a
> hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of
> blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and
> mind-consciousness element occur.
N: We have to go back in time centuries and centuries. What was the
intention of the commentators? To see the heartbase as not worth clinging
to, not beautiful. It is only the tiniest element performing a function. The
last sentence is the core: <with which as their support the mind element and
mind-consciousness element occur.> The reality of that base is expressed by
means of conventional terms to help people at that time to understand it
correctly. We should not reject the terms used here, but consider what is
really essential. Blood, inside the heart: we have to understand the rupa
dhamma these words stand for. That is what really matters.
The purpose was not an anatomical lesson. I realy see no problem here.
I also made a general remark:
I quote from the Co to the Yamaka (Abhidhamma):
<It is true that the Teacher did not teach all dhammas in all places, but he
taught particular dhammas at a particular place depending on the beings he
should guide so that they would attain enlightenment. >
Good to remember when one believes that there are inconsistencies.
Heartbase is a subtle rupa only to be known through the mind-door. It is
infinitesimally tiny.
It can perform the function of base for cittas and then it falls away
immediately. Kamma produces it throughout life, even at each of the three
submoments of citta (of arising, presence and falling away). Budhaghosa knew
all this, but he used figurative language to explain.
Actually it is in the same way as he explained the eye: as tiny as a
lousehead:
< There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like
a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with
dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be
found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the
white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where
there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it.
It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of
cotton.>
I think it is great! Again not an anatomical lesson. It helps people not to
cling to the eye. 
Nina. 

Another remark by U. Narada:
U. Narada, p. 175:
<Question. Why is it that the general term Œbase¹ expounded in Pth. is
specified as Œheart-base¹ by the Commentators when this is not mentioned
anywhere in the Pali canon?
Answer: It is clear to many that eye-consciousness, etc. are dependent and
based on eye-base, etc. But in the case of the material base in question,
Œheart¹ is prefixed to it so that there will be no doubt as to which base is
meant. For mind-element and mind-consciousness element are dependent on the
material base which is situated within the heart and is, therefore, called
Œheart-base¹. Thus Œbase¹ and Œheart-base¹ are one and the same. >
_____

Nina. 

op 05-06-2004 06:14 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> In summary, my position is:
> - The author of the Patthana got it right
> - An unnamed commentator applied the prevalent cardio-centric model
> of the mind and identified the heart as the physical base for the
> mind element and mind consciousness
> - Buddhaghosa included this incorrect concept of heart in his
> Visuddhimagga
	
33648

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part I

Hi Rob M,
In the following mind-door process, the object is still visible object, as I
understand it. It is not mental object. As you also say, taking the same
rupa as object. It is rupa, not anything else.
The three characteristics of both nama and rupa have to be realized. If rupa
could not be directly experienced through the mind-door, how could it ever
be realized as impermanent, dukkha, anatta?
Nina. 
op 05-06-2004 10:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental
> states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa (visible
> object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process
> (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa into
> a mental object".
	
33649

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 11:46pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks and More Questions :-) - Part I

Hi Nina,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> In the following mind-door process, the object is still visible 
object, as I
> understand it. It is not mental object. As you also say, taking the 
same
> rupa as object. It is rupa, not anything else.
> The three characteristics of both nama and rupa have to be 
realized. If rupa
> could not be directly experienced through the mind-door, how could 
it ever
> be realized as impermanent, dukkha, anatta?
> Nina. 
> op 05-06-2004 10:32 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:
> 
> > After the eye-door process, there will be a few bhavanga mental
> > states followed by a mind-door process taking the same rupa 
(visible
> > object) as object. This is called a "conformational" process
> > (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi) that effectively "copies the rupa 
into
> > a mental object".

=====

I agree that the object of the conformational mind door process is 
still the visible object. Where I am having difficulty is describing 
the function of this conformational mind door process. I 
inserted 'effectively' as a "squirm word" and put "copies the rupa 
into a mental object" in quotes in an effort to convey that my 
statement should not be taken too literally. Please help me find a 
better way of expressing the function of the conformational mind door 
process.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33650

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 1:08am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Rob Ep,

Thank you for your kind words, I too am enjoying our conversation 
and I will never tire of the topic – `formal practice.' (Groans all 
round.) :-)

Thank you for conceding that the opinions on my side of the argument 
are in accordance with the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries. 
However, you don't share my enthusiasm for those sources:
-------------- 
R: > I trust them as brilliant commentators and technicians, but do 
not warrant them the wisdom that perhaps you may, to freely 
intrepret what the Buddha said in terms that are quite different 
from what he actually stated. And sometimes this is the case. If you 
don't agree with this, I will try to provide a specific example. But 
since I don't want to get too side-tracked I will leave that out for 
now.
---------------

Never mind that it's a sidetrack; any apparent difference of that 
kind is an urgent topic of discussion for dsg. 

However, to summarise the main track so far; we were talking about 
the four factors for enlightenment: association with the wise, 
hearing the Dhamma, wise reflection on the Dhamma and practice in 
accordance with the Dhamma. You maintain that the last named factor 
includes, not only satipatthana but also, formal practice. You 
agree that the Abhidhamma and Commentaries see it differently but 
you think: 
-------------
> Abhidhamma analysis, which is not explicitly mentioned in the 
suttas, came into being after the lifetime of the Buddha. >
-------------

On this list, them's fightin' words! They should, at least, be 
prefaced by "IMHO." :-) Please see the Useful Posts on this topic. 
(I am not saying your, contrary, posts are not useful, but the UP's 
are useful for understanding the strictly Theravada point of view.) 

----------------
R: > So there is always an element of judgment and speculation when 
it comes to assigning "Right Practice" to something that the Buddha 
did not explicitly mention as a practice himself.
----------------

I honestly don't see any problem or controversy in 
interpreting "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" 
as "satipatthana." One qualification might be that, for a sotapanna 
or above, `practice in accordance with the Dhamma' would include all 
vipassana, not just the mundane variety known as satipatthana.

As I said in my previous message, I think formal practice, if it is 
to be seen as a factor for enlightenment, would have to be included 
in one of the first three factors. 

But formal practice, which you define as "meditation with the aim of 
satipatthana in mind," simply doesn't fit any of the descriptions. 
So, we are back to trying to include it in the fourth factor -- 
which would now have to be interpreted as "both satipatthana and 
meditation with the aim of satipatthana in mind." 

You have put your case in favour of this very eloquently and I'm 
sure you will have a lot of support. But, just as you see the 
opposing case as "tortured," so do I see yours. Yours lacks 
consistency with anatta -- the central doctrine of the Dhamma.

-------------
R: > the abdication of Buddha's obvious teachings
that don't happen to fit with Abhidhamma's philosophical leanings do
not do Abhidhamma good service. 
-------------

Obvious in what way? In the normal, conventional view of the world, 
your interpretations are obvious. In the uniquely anatta-centred 
Buddhist view of the world, they are tortured. On the other hand, 
the Abhidhamma's explanations are not tortured: they might not be 
obvious but they are consistent with anatta.

------------
R: > It undercuts its efficacy by taking practitioners away from 
practices that are beneficial and part of the Buddhist path. In my 
opinion this is a grave error. >
------------

We both feel there is a grave error but for completely opposite 
reasons. :-).

-------------------------
R: > If Buddha had the same aim as those who make the above argument 
to warn that breathing itself is not a special object and should not 
be taken as a primary object of practice, I think he was smart enough
[omniscient in fact] that he would have warned that his teaching in
this sutta was not meant to imply that breath *should* be taken as 
the object of medtitation, or that meditation should be undertaken 
as a practice. He gave no such warning, though he gave countless 
specific warnings against other dangers on the path. >
--------------

But didn't he warn in numerous suttas that understanding, as 
distinct from concentration, was the key to enlightenment? Only 
through defiance, in the face of this warning, has formal practice 
taken the place of "association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma 
and wise consideration of the Dhamma."

--------------
R: > I think that the crucial point is whether Buddha advocated 
practices and whether it is possible to practice while not affirming 
the existence of a practitioner. In my opinion, Buddha would not have
taken something that is an experience, something that is not
practiced, but is a result of certain conditions, and call it a
practice. Again, let's be obvious about it. A practice is something
that is practiced. It tortures the definition of a practice to say
that satipatthana *is* the practice. 
-------------------------

I have no sympathy with this argument, Rob. Here you seem to be 
saying, "Forget the Dhamma (the teaching of conditionality): be 
guided by whatever seems most logical."

------------------------
R: > Satipatthana is the fruit of a practice, and that practice is 
the practice of mindfulness. Whether one engages in the practice of 
simple sati through formal or informal meditation, or merely by 
focussing upon the arising of experience in the moment does not make 
a crucial difference. What matters is that one is bound to be 
unsuccessful in experiencing satipatthana, and that repeated 
concentration [Right Concentration] in this practice [Right
Practice] with the correct kind of effort [Right Effort] will
eventually train the mind to be concentrated and mindful and lead to
the conditions that create the more extended experience of
satipatthana, vipassana, and bring one into the stream of experience
that leads to enlightenment. >
-----------------

Well, that is one interpretation of the Dhamma; it is certainly not 
the Abhidhamma's or the Commentaries' interpretation. It applies 
vastly different meanings to the Pali terms. Who is to say which 
interpretation is right? You know where my money will be. :-)

------------------
R: > If one affirms that there is such a path of practice 
recommended by the Buddha and that it should be engaged in the same 
way that one engages with sutta reading and conversation such as 
that which occurs on this list, is one by doing so affirming that 
there is a being, entity, self or soul existent within the khandas? 
>
--------------------

Hearing, studying and discussion (of the Dhamma) are to be 
*understood* as factors leading to practice in accordance the 
Dhamma. Understanding is the chief condition for the arising of 
those factors. Any attempt at forcing their arising will be 
motivated by lobha and/or moha. 

Now, it might be argued that formal practice should, likewise, be 
understood as a factor for enlightenment. And that it will then be 
conditioned in the same way as the other factors. But the Buddha 
did not say that it was a factor. And there is no need to infer that 
it is a factor. So any `understanding' that conditions formal 
practice it will not be actual understanding (panna), it will be 
ditthi (or miccha-ditthi, wrong-view, wrong-understanding).

Rob, in the rest of your post, you reiterate a lot of points you 
have made before. The Abhidhamma position has been explained, but 
you discount it: you continue to use Dhamma terms (e.g., 
mindfulness, right effort, right concentration) in ways that are at 
odds with the Abhidhamma. Why is your way better? I think the onus 
is on you to show that there is inconsistency in the ancient 
Theravada texts. In the meantime, I will prepare some responses to 
the rest of your post: even if we have been over it all before 
(several times) it is Dhamma discussion and that is what we are here 
for. :-)

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33651

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:18am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 026 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Still Cittas can be classified according to how many functions they 
can perform. In this kind of grouping, we need to know what are 
cittas in full sense as they have been numbered as 89 cittas or 121 
cittas.

Now 89 cittas or 121 cittas will be delineated to some details. Citta 
may be kusala/akusala or vipaka or kiriya. These terms have been 
explained in the previous threads. But as repeatition is better for 
deep understanding, they will be discussed here again.

Kusala is wholesome. Akusala is unwholesome. A citta may be kusala or 
akusala if it is not vipaka or kiriya. ( Vipaka and kiriya will be 
explained in this thread.) When a citta is not vipaka or not kiriya, 
then it has to be kusala or akusala.

Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are cittas that have kamma-producing 
power and they are called kammapatha cittas. Kammapatha means 'kamma 
producing' or 'kamma generating'. 

Vipaka are resultant dhammas. Vipaka cittas are the resultant cittas 
derived from kamma that had been produced or generated when kusala or 
akusala actions were done. So basically kamma were generated in the 
past. In the past here means not now. So the past may be time in this 
life including today and in the past lives.

Kiriya cittas are cittas that are not vipaka and not kusala or 
akusala cittas. They are actions without kamma-generation. They are 
ineffectual actions. They just do their jobs but they will not give 
rise to any kamma potentials for later life. With the exception of 2 
cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta, all 
kiriya cittas arise in arahats.

There are Kamavacara cittas, rupavacara cittas, arupavacara cittas 
and lokuttara cittas. Kamavacara cittas are cittas that frequently 
arise in kama bhumi or sensual sphere that is in 4 apaya bhumis of 
1.niriya or hell, 2. tiracchanna or animal, 3. peta or hungry ghost, 
4. asurakara or demon, 1 manussa bhumi or human realm, and 6 deva 
bhumis or deva realms. Altogether there are 4 apaya, 1 manussa, 6 
deva so 11 kama bhumis or 11 realms that nearly always provide with 
kama senses or 5 senses and their related dhamma. 

Rupavacara cittas are cittas that frequently arise in rupa brahma 
bhumis and arupavacara cittas are cittas that frequently arise in 
arupa brahma bhumis. Lokuttara cittas are not related to lokiya that 
is not related to kama loka or 11 kama bhmuis, rupa loka or 16 rupa 
brahma bhumis, arupa loka or 4 arupa brahma bhumis. Lokuttara cittas 
are superior to all other cittas.

Kamavacara cittas have 3 different kinds of cittas. They are

1. akuala/ or kusala cittas ( kama-generating cittas )
2. vipaka cittas ( resultant cittas )
3. kiriya cittas (non-kamma-generating cittas )

Rupavacara cittas also have 3 kinds of cittas. But there is no 
akusala kind. Rupavacara cittas may be rupa kusala or rupa vipaka or 
rupa kiriya. Arupavacara cittas also have 3 kinds of cittas. They are 
arupa kusala, arupa vipaka, arupa kiriya. There is no akusla kind in 
arupavacara cittas. Lokuttara cittas may be lokuttara kusala or 
lokuttara vipaka. There are only two kinds in lokuttara cittas. 4 
cittas are kusala cittas and other 4 cittas are the resultant cittas 
of lokuttara kusala cittas and they are called phala cittas. These 
phala cittas are lokuttara vipaka cittas.

So citta may be kammapatha citta that is akusala or kusala citta. Or 
it may be vipaka. Or it may be kiriya. Cittas have been classified 
according to jati or their origin and this classification can be 
viewed in the earlier threads. In the next post 89 cittas will be 
counted from 1 through 89th and will be explained while ongoing to 
89th citta starts from 1st citta.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33652

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Birth as dukkha (was:Do or not do something)

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Ok, I take your words that you do not see the Sammohavinodani 
> passage quoted by Sarah as contradicting the first Noble Truth.
> 
> If one doesn't see the contradiction, then one doesn't see it. 
> 
> It would be futile for one to help a blinded person to see a dot by 
> simply pointing to the dot.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

Here for comparison are:
(a) some extracts of references to birth, old age and death in the first
Noble Truth, from the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (D 22),
(b) extracts from the passages in the Sammohavinodani (Sv) explaining the
reference to birth etc as "not itself suffering,... [but] being the basis
for the arising of suffering".

The full text of each passage is copied at the end of this message.

BIRTH
D 22: And what is birth ? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent,
coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of
[sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings,
that is called birth. 
Sv 456: [Birth is the basis for the arising of what suffering?] The
suffering of the states of woe ... and the suffering which arises in a
state of bliss [and] in the human world, and is classed as rooted in the
descent into the womb, etc in the human world - it is the basis for all
that.

AGING/OLD AGE
D 22: And what is aging ? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness,
graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of
the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. 
Sv 473: [Old age is the basis for what suffering?] For both bodily
suffering and for the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is
aged is weak like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling
to stand or to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and
children are not as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood
as suffering through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.

DEATH
D 22: And what is death ? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up,
disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the
aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of
the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. 
Sv 480: [Death is the basis for what suffering?] The feelings belonging
to the physical body which end in death burn the physical body like a
lighted grass torch held against the wind. At the time of the appearance
of the sign of hell, etc, great grief arises. Accordingly it should be
understood as suffering through being the basis of these two kinds of
suffering.

If you see any particular contradiction here, perhaps you could point it
out.

Jon

MAHA-SATIPATTHANA SUTTA, DN 22
"And what is birth ? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be,
coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres
of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called
birth. 

"And what is aging ? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying,
wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the
various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. 

"And what is death ? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up,
disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the
aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of
the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html

SAMMOHAVINODANI
456 “Now ‘meaning of suffering in birth should be understood’...: for this
birth is not itself suffering. But by being the basis for the arising of
suffering it is called suffering. But of what suffering is it the basis?
The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by
means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M iii 165 ff),
and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss [and] in the human
world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc in the
human world - it is the basis for all that.” ...

473 “‘The meaning of suffering in old age should be understood’. But here
this is not itself suffering. But it is called suffering as being the
basis for suffering. For what suffering? For both bodily suffering and for
the suffering of grief. For the person of one who is aged is weak like an
aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to walk or
to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as
considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through
being the basis for these two kinds of suffering.” ...

480 “‘The meaning of suffering of death should be understood’; but here
this too is not itself suffering; but it is called suffering through being
the basis for suffering. The feelings belonging to the physical body which
end in death burn the physical body like a lighted grass torch held
against the wind. At the time of the appearance of the sign of hell, etc,
great grief arises. Accordingly it should be understood as suffering
through being the basis of these two kinds of suffering.” 



	
33653

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:26am
Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 3 Does break from DSG give more time for reflection?

Next I asked Rob about his sabbatical from DSG. I was curious to 
know whether taking a break from Dhamma discussion, or having less of 
it at least (he tells me he is still active at another group, Triple 
Gem) would have given him benefits in terms of space/time to reflect. 
I?fve been feeling that while I am gathering so much wonderful 
guidance from friends at DSG, I am not taking time to process it, to 
re-read it, to reflect on it. 

Phil: There?fs a sutta here I found when I was reading about
right view. ?gThere are two conditions, your reverence, for
bringing
right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) 
and wise attention.?h ( note- Middle Length Sayings no. 43, 
Mahavedallasutta) Those are the two conditions. 

Rob: The two main conditions. Basic conditions.

Phil: Main conditions. And I realized that I?fve had wonderful 
opportunities to hear these utterances but I?fm not taking time
to reflect. I?fm constantly gathering...

Rob: But even while you?fre....there is reflection going on. 
Reflection doesn?ft have to be..

Phil: Repetitive?

Rob: Well, it can be, but, you know, a little bit of reflection comes 
in, and comes in.Don?ft worry. You?fre doing well, Philip.
Don?ft 
worry at all. (note to myself- I really like this ?gcomes in, and 
comes in..?hReminds me 
of what Thich Nhat Hahn said about the Dhamma falling like gentle 
rain, and gradually getting into the hard earth of our minds or 
something like that.)

Phil: I?fm not worried at all, really. I really do feel quite
relaxed about it all. Having a lot of fun, actually. (note to myself- 
if I wasn?ft worried, why did I ask?) But I wondered about your 
sabbatical. And I wanted to ask if stepping back from as much 
discussion as before whether you saw an impact on your practice 
or...not DSG in particular, but just the volume of discussion 
decreasing. Is there more time for reflection.

Rob: It doesn?ft matter really. I mean, if you?fre not
writing you can be reading, and if you?fre not reading you can be 
reflection. And if you?fre not reflecting there?fs nama and
rupa happening now, you know. I mean, what?fs more important?
Thinking
a lot about Dhamma, or experiencing hardness, experiencing lobha, 
understanding?cI mean,you don?ft have to be contemplating it
all the time, but there can be moments when they?fre...
Once there?fs a strong basis in the theory, Dhamma is everywhere. 
Even when there?fs not Dhamma, there?fs still something
occurring. 
Even when you go through periods when you?fre not even thinking
about Dhamma much, and you?fre absorbed in worldly life, absorbed
in lobha. 
It still gives you food, it still becomes grist for the mill.
It?fs still food for understanding, you know. I mean, I?fm
just relaxed about it now. I don?ft feel any pressure to do
anything 
really. 
But I do believe you need to have taken a lot of time to have 
studied a lot.

(end of pt 3) 

***

Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking 
occasional breaks from discussion when reflecting on suttas or other 
teachings? Of course I know it is a mistake to think that conditions 
such as silence and uncrowdedness must be in place before 
understanding can arise, and yet, thinking of the sutta above, I want 
to think more about this "wise attention." I think it is one of the 
four factors for enlightenment/awakening that Ken H and Rob E and 
others talked about in the thread about formal practice (was video 
games!) Was it yonisomething? What is that yonisomething and how rare 
is its arising?

Metta, 
Phil
	
33654

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:30am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Howard

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Victor) -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I see it, your reading is the exact opposite of the normal
meaning of the English sentence. The normal understanding of "A bhikkhu
who is concentrated understands things as they really are," would not be
"At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration," but, instead,
would be more along the lines of "At a moment of right concentration (or
following in the wake of such) is vipassana." It is not vipassana that is
being given as causal condition, nor is simultaneity being stressed. What
is being asserted is the role that concentration plays as a condition for
wisdom. Moreover, it seem to me that this meaning is crystal clear, and I
suspect that interpreting otherwise is a consequence of being
uncomfortable with regard to concentration and any suggestion of the worth
of its cultivation. But this last, of course, is just conjecture on my
part.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would agree that what is being asserted is the role that concentration
plays as a condition for wisdom. But 'A as a condition for B' covers a
wide range of modes of conditioning, and we need to know for any given
reference precisely what kind of conditioning role is being asserted.

In my view it is not possible to give an answer to that question purely on
a reading of the particular sentence quoted ("A bhikkhu who is
concentrated understands things as they really are"). However, there is
nothing here that on the face of it suggests a *causative* role, as
opposed to a more ancillary/supporting kind of role.

Jon


	
33655

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:43am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Indeed. It seems to me that you see the problem now.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

I take it from this that you do indeed see the same kind of contradiction
in the remark about the *five aggregates not on their own constituting
dukkha* as in the Sammohavinodani remarks about *birth, old age and death
each not itself suffering*.

As regards the Sammohavinodani, I think you are on the wrong track. In a
post sent to you a few minutes ago I set out the detailed explanation of
birth, old age and death as part of the first Noble Truth from the Maha
Satipatthana Sutta, showing for comparison the text of the Sammohavinodani
passage. I do not see any contradiction between the two; in fact, I see
the Sammohavinodani text as a helpful elaboration of the sutta text.

As regards the statement "The five aggregates, on their own, do not
constitute suffering or stress", much depends on the context. As an
explanation of the first Noble Truth, it can be seen as saying much the
same thing as the passage from the Sammohavinodani. As an explanation of
dukkha as one of the 3 characteristics inherent to all dhammas, however,
the statement seems at odds with the idea of the five aggregates as being
inherently impermanent (anicca), inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha), and
inherently not-self (anatta).

Jon


	
33656

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:47am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

Mike (and Phil)

--- "m. nease" <mlnease@z...> wrote: > Hi Jon and Phil,
...
> I came to the tentative conclusion some time ago that 'obtaining
> results'
> refers sometimes to nibbaana and sometimes to favorable rebirths,
> depending
> on the context. Not sure where I got this--wonder if the commentaries
> have
> anything to say.
> 
> mike

Thanks for the comments. Sounds quite plausible, but I haven't found
confirmation yet. I've checked the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation but there's
no relevant commentary.

Let's hope the same reference occurs in another context where the meaning
is clearer.

Jon

> > > > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with
> > > > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action,
> > > > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, &
> > > > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even
> > > > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining
> > > > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having
> > > > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results.
> > > > > If they follow the holy life even when both having
> > > > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable
> > > > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life
> > > > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made
> > > > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is
> > > > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining
> > > > > results.


	
33657

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:52am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 027 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There are 89 cittas. The Tipitaka does not number these cittas as the 
first citta, the second citta, the third, the 4th ,...., the 87th, 
the 88th, and the 89th citta. But for the reason of easy reference 
for 'Dhamma Thread' these 89 cittas will be numbered.

There are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas, 12 arupavacara 
cittas and 8 lokuttara cittas. Again each has kusala ( also akusala 
in kamavaca cittas ), vipaka and kiriya kinds with the exception of 
lokuttara cittas. 

There cannot be lokuttara kiriya cittas because all lokuttara kusala 
cittas only arise once in the whole samsara. In lokiya cittas, kusala 
cittas arise as frequently as the conditions favour. But when there 
is no more defilements or kilesas, cittas in action are called kiriya 
cittas. 

As lokuttara kusala cittas just arise once, there will never be any 
lokuttara kiriya cittas. But there are lokuttara vipaka cittas. These 
cittas are phala cittas and they are the resultant cittas of 
corresponding lokuttara kusala cittas.

There are 54 kamavacara cittas. Again these 54 cittas have two 
separate groups. They are 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful 
consciousness and 24 sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. All 
rupavacara cittas, all arupavacara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are 
sobhana cittas. Asobhana cittas only arise as kamavacara cittas. 
Asobhana cittas have 3 kinds of cittas that is 1.akusala, 2.vipaka, 
3.kiriya and equally sobhana cittas have 3 kinds of cittas namely 
1.kusala, 2.vipaka, 3.kiriya.

After repeatedly explained, there terms will help a lot understanding 
of ongoing discussions on 'Dhamma Thread'. I think maintaining of 
originality of some Pali terms will help understanding of Dhamma much 
more effective than learning in translated words even though 
understanding is still possible.

In 30 asobhana cittas, there are 3 kinds of cittas. They are akusala 
cittas, vipaka cittas, and kiriya cittas. In 30 asobhana cittas, only 
12 akusala cittas have hetus as root condition and these 12 akusala 
cittas are sahetuka cittas or consciousness with roots. All other 
asobhana cittas that is 15 vipaka cittas and 3 kiriya cittas do not 
have any root and they are rootless consciousness and called ahetuka 
cittas. So there are 12 sahetuka akusala cittas ( no ahetuka akusala 
cittas ), 15 ahetuka vipaka cittas ( there are sahetuka vipaka cittas 
and they are sobhana cittas and will appear later ), and 3 ahetuka 
kiriya cittas.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33658

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred'

Victor

--- yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> And you would need to know when to infer and what a correct inference 
> is. A right inference will bring out the meaning clearly. An 
> entangling and convoluting spin is, after all, entangling and 
> convoluting.
> 
> Metta,
> Victor

I agree with these comments. But what are appropriate sources for drawing
an inference if not other parts of the Tipitaka, and the commentaries?

One example I mentioned in my post of a term whose meaning is to be known
by inference, which you seem to agree with, is 'mindfulness of breathing'
as used in the Anapanasati Sutta. I'd be interested to know what meaning
you give to this term, as you are a strong proponent of the practice of
mindfulness of breathing.

Jon


	
33659

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 5:29am
Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 04 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The right thought is the chief that is pushing the vehicle forward along the journey to nibbana. Without thought, there will not be any action and there will not be any movement along the way of journey to nibbana. Due to right view, right thoughts have to arise and this again push forward the vehicle. Now the journey has been started.

The right thoughts lead to right actions. Whenever we consider to do something, we at least have to have a plan for that. That plan is thinking and as the right viewed has been set up, thoughts become the right ones. So the intended actions are thoroughly considered whether they should be done or not and as right thoughts develop, the arising thoughts lead to right actions.

All the movements will be meaningful with right thought. For example, if someone has considered the act of killing is not right and he weighes it as bad thing. This right thought hinders him not to do killing. This avoidance derived from right thought is a kind of moral conduct or sila and actions not connected with killing become right actions.

By the same token, when there is a circumstance that taking of things is iminent, right thought considers that whether taking those things is free of ill-will or free of the act of stealing. If the action would involve in stealing, the right thought hinders not to do that action of taking things. This avoidance derived from right thought is a kind of moral conduct or sila and actions not connected with stealing or anything related to stealing become right actions.

In the same way, when there are right thoughts, misuse of senses or sensual things will not occur in actions at least. Having illegitimate sex is not of the output of right thoughts. When approaching the Path, even lawful sex is not a part of right actions as having sex is associated with a lot of attachment, craving, clinging and endless akusala cittas. Avoidance of apparently defilements-involved actions such as having sex derives from right thoughts. Taking intoxicants, recreational drugs, alcohol etc derives not from right thoughts and these do not add to building up of right things for the Path.

Right thoughts lead to do right actions. As there are actions, we can say that there is movement along our journey. We have started the journey. As we have right view, our thoughts will become right thoughts. As we have developed right thoughts, our actions will become right actions. Up to now, we are developing or building up moral conduct which again derives from right thoughts. The moral conduct or sila that we have is just lokiya sila. Lokuttara sila only arise with lokuttara cittas.

Anyway, we are heading to right actions and we have started the journey to nibbana. As a routine we have to get up from our bed daily. As soon as we wake up from our sleep, we are conscious to ourselves and our surroundings and thoughts. When there is right view, the thoughts will be right thoughts. These right thoughts will dictate all our actions through out the day and night until we go into deep sleep.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing 
htootintnaing@y... 









	
33660

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Sat Jun 5, 2004 10:39pm
Subject: The right Way !

Friends:


The Eye of the World:
The supreme Way is 8-fold !
The supreme Truth is 4-fold !
The supreme State is Detachment.
The supreme Being is the Seer ...

This is this one Way, there is No
Other for the purification of Seeing ...
Following this Way, you will bewilder
Mara, the Devil of all Temptation ...

Entering this Way you will make an
End to all Pain, Suffering & Despair ...
This Path is Known & Shown to you
For the removal of the Thorn of ill ...

Effort have to be done by yourself ...
Well-gone-Ones only point out the way!
All who use this method of meditation 
are wholly freed of Mara's bondage ...

Transient are all constructions ...
When seeing that by Understanding,
one is disgusted with what is ill.
That is the way to Purification ... 

Painful are all constructions ...
When seeing that by Understanding,
one is disillusioned with what is ill.
This is the way to Purification ... 


Self-less are all Phenomena ...
When seeing that by Understanding,
one is disenchanted with what is ill.
Such is the way to Purification ... 



--ooOoo--


Source: The Right Way: Dhammapada 273-9:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/message/4212
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/index.html
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=900034







All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma






	
33661

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:01am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 028 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

There are 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful cittas. They are 
called asobhana cittas or non-beautiful cittas because they are 
akusala or they are cittas that do not have beautiful cetasikas like 
alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion and amoha or panna or 
pannindriya cetasika.

Among 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness, 12 cittas 
are akusala cittas. Other 18 cittas are 15 vipaka cittas and 3 kiriya 
cittas. Among 12 akusala cittas, lobha cittas or consciousness with 
attachment are easily understandable even though they are hardly 
avoidable for most of us in this world, in this loka.

There are 8 lobha mula cittas, 2 dosa mula cittas, and 2 moha mula 
cittas. Lobha is attachment. It is a cetasika and cetasikas will be 
discussed in due course. Mula means 'root'. So lobha mula cittas are 
cittas that are rooted by mainly lobha or attachment. Dosa is 
aversion, hatred and it is a cetasika and it will be explained later. 
2 moha mula cittas are rooted by moha cetasika. Moha is ignorance, 
delusion, illusion and it is a cetasika and will be explained later.

So in 12 akusala cittas, 8 are lobha cittas, 2 are dosa cittas, and 2 
are moha cittas in short. All 89 cittas will be numbered in the 
discussions of 'Dhamma Thread'. The first 8 cittas will be on lobha 
cittas, then 2 dosa cittas will be followed and next will be 2 moha 
cittas.

The first 1st citta of 89 cittas is, in its full name,

''somanassa sahagatam ditthi sampayuttam asankharika citta.'' 

This is its full name. This should be just a unit and it is a citta. 
But that citta has such and such characters and so it has such a name.

Somanassa here is a Pali word. It comprises 'so' , 'mana' , 
and 'assa'. 'So' means good, fair, sound, pleasurable, desirable etc 
etc. 'Mana' means 'mind related'. 'Assa' means to show possession. 
Therefore, somanassa means simply 'mental pleasure' or 'pleasant 
mental feeling'.

Saha means 'together' , 'along with' , 'concommittant'. 'Gata' 
means 'to go'. So 'sahagatam' means 'to go together with'. Somanassa 
sahagatam means 'to go together with pleasant mental feeling'.

'Ditthi' here means 'wrong view' that there is no kamma effect for 
any action etc etc. 'Sampayutta' means 'co-exist', 'co-arise' ,'in 
parallel with ', 'mixed with '. Therefore ditthi sampayuttam here 
means 'that lobha citta is mixed inseparably with ditthi cetasika 
which has a wrong view.

'Asankharika' means 'without any prompt', 'without any 
influence' , 'without any inducement' , 'without any stimulation'.

So the 1st citta of 89 cittas has many implications and we will need 
to consider it in connection with our daily life activities so that 
we can understand what that lobha citta is and what are its 
implications.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33662

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:08am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:= 

> Hi Rob M,
> I shall now quote Tiika Vis and my comments:
> The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV
> > 
> > 60.   13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the
> > (material) support for the mind-element and for the
> > mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them.
> N: to observe: the Pali has: aadhaarana: the meaning is: being a containe= 
r,
> foundation, support, holding up. In the five khandha planes where there a= 
re
> nama and rupa, cittas need a physical base, foundation. They do not arise= 

> independently of the body. The five sense-cognitions have the sense bases= 
as
> physical support, and all the other cittas, namely, mind-element and the
> mind-consciousness-element (see explanation in the other post) have as
> support what is called the heartbase, an infinitely tiny rupa arising and= 

> falling away. 

Hi Nina and Rob,

would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element
(mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other
five_consciousness_elements?

> Text: It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in
> dependence on
> > the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of
> > the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart.
> N: let us first look at the footnote :
> text: Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the
> colour
> > of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a
> > lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is
> > smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofa= 
h
> > gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in
> > those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is = 
a
> > hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of
> > blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and
> > mind-consciousness element occur.
> N: We have to go back in time centuries and centuries. What was the
> intention of the commentators? 

If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he
commenting on here? 

>To see the heartbase as not worth clinging
> to, not beautiful. It is only the tiniest element performing a function. = 
The
> last sentence is the core: <with which as their support the mind element = 
and
> mind-consciousness element occur.> The reality of that base is expressed = 
by
> means of conventional terms to help people at that time to understand it
> correctly. We should not reject the terms used here, but consider what is= 

> really essential. Blood, inside the heart: we have to understand the rupa= 

> dhamma these words stand for. That is what really matters.

I can't see this heartbase, thats the problem you see.. and I don't know an= 
ybody 
who does and could point it to me. 
I see no reason to have an opinion on him or his comments. I just need to k= 
now what 
he was commenting on, or what he was translating to see if there is any sen= 
se to spend 
time dwelling on it one longer. 

> The purpose was not an anatomical lesson. I realy see no problem here.
> I also made a general remark:
> I quote from the Co to the Yamaka (Abhidhamma):
> <It is true that the Teacher did not teach all dhammas in all places, but= 
he
> taught particular dhammas at a particular place depending on the beings = 
he
> should guide so that they would attain enlightenment. >
> Good to remember when one believes that there are inconsistencies.
> Heartbase is a subtle rupa only to be known through the mind-door. It is
> infinitesimally tiny.
> It can perform the function of base for cittas and then it falls away
> immediately. Kamma produces it throughout life, even at each of the three= 

> submoments of citta (of arising, presence and falling away). Budhaghosa k= 
new
> all this, but he used figurative language to explain.
> Actually it is in the same way as he explained the eye: as tiny as a
> lousehead:
> < There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like
> a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with
> dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be
> found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the
> white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where
> there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it.
> It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of
> cotton.>
> I think it is great! Again not an anatomical lesson. It helps people not = 
to
> cling to the eye. 

I understend it this way:
An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are. An eye sense is rather easy 
to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's flesh= 
y and has
all the four basic rupas to it. Visible rupa hits it, it register hit and c= 
ontact is
established triggering an avalanche of mental effects.

The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me.
If does then my understanding of rupa has to change to include some kind o= 
f 
new entity - an invisible one I guess. 
And there are further problems with it, but lets not go there as yet.

> Nina. 
> Another remark by U. Narada:
> U. Narada, p. 175:
> <Question. Why is it that the general term Obase1 expounded in Pth. is
> specified as Oheart-base1 by the Commentators when this is not mentioned
> anywhere in the Pali canon?

> Answer: It is clear to many that eye-consciousness, etc. are dependent an= 
d
> based on eye-base, etc. But in the case of the material base in question,= 

> Oheart1 is prefixed to it so that there will be no doubt as to which base= 
is
> meant. For mind-element and mind-consciousness element are dependent on t= 
he
> material base which is situated within the heart and is, therefore, calle= 
d
> Oheart-base1. Thus Obase1 and Oheart-base1 are one and the same. >
> _____

Is U. Narada giving any hint on why he think so?

> Nina. 
> 
> op 05-06-2004 06:14 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:
> 
> > In summary, my position is:
> > - The author of the Patthana got it right
> > - An unnamed commentator applied the prevalent cardio-centric model
> > of the mind and identified the heart as the physical base for the
> > mind element and mind consciousness
> > - Buddhaghosa included this incorrect concept of heart in his
> > Visuddhimagga

is this unnamed commentator ( I still have no idea what he was commenting o= 
n) 
text available to read? Can this be untangled and put simply as a list:

1 Sutta ...
2 Abidhamma...
3. Comment to Sutta by...
4. Comment to Sutta by...
5. Comment to Comment to Sutta by....

Meta,
Agrios
	
33663

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:34am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" [...]
> 
> The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me.
> If does then my understanding of rupa has to change to include some kind o=
> f 
&gt; new entity - an invisible one I guess. 

I meant untraceable in the sense that one can think about it, 
but in no way experience this kind of rupa. That would help me to
understand existence of all external rupas. 

metta,
Agrios.
	
33664

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:45am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Larry


--- Larry <LBIDD@w...> wrote: > Jon: "The arahant who has not yet
attained parinibbana has 
> transcended certain aspects of 'dukkha as Truth', but 'dukkha as a 
> characteristic of conditioned dhammas' is not susceptible to being 
> transcended, except upon attaining parinibbana."
> 
> Hi Jon,
> 
> I agree. I wonder if we could say dukkha as truth means "painful" 
> because of being bound-up with desire, and dukkha as characteristic 
> means "undesirable" because of being linked with impermanence. 
> Perhaps we could say dukkha as truth is a reality with a cause, while 
> dukkha as characteristic is a "characteristic" concept without a 
> cause as such. I think you are also right to suggest the goal is to 
> transcend both dukkhas. Do you know of any commentary or scripture 
> that supports two readings of dukkha?
> 
> Larry 

No, I don't know of any support for 2 readings of dukkha. Do you think
'unsatisfactory' is a reading that could suit both contexts?

Jon

	
33665

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts!

Phil

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
...
> Now, I've done so much reading in various religions 
> before "settling" on the Buddha's teaching, that I can't remember if 
> I read this in a book by a Christian mystic (Meister Eckhardt?) or in 
> new -agey stuff like Seat of the Soul or whether it was the Buddha's 
> teaching, but is there anything about the value of intentions in 
> themselves, irregardless of whether the intention is carried through?
...
> For example, when I told Nina that I intended to send a donation to 
> the Dhamma Foundation to thank her for her books, but didn't, was the 
> intention itself kusala even though it wasn't followed through? That 
> is just one example....
> Was the intention I felt quite clearly the other day, an intention 
> that just kind of arose, of a kusala nature in itself? If "deeds are 
> essentially the manifestation of their accompanying intention", but 
> the deed is some months down the road, can it be said there was 
> wholesome khamma with the intention? 

An intention to do kusala can itself be kusala. That is to say, the
possibility of such an intention itself being kusala cannot be ruled out. 
Not all kusala moments manifest as an action through body or speech.

As to a particular instance, it's impossible to say, and probably best not
to even wonder about ;-)) For most of us, intentions are mixed at the
best of times, so it's a safe bet there would have been both kusala and
akusala mind-states arising, alternately.

> I'm not wanting to use this as a 
> way of having wholesome khamma by intending things intentionally - 
> but if an seemingly wholesome intention arises on its own, clearly, 
> explicitly, in an unexpected way...can I understand it as kusala?

Any presently arising dhamma, be it kusala mind-state, akusala mind-state,
a mental factor such as feeling, or a rupa such as visible-object, can be
the object of awareness.

Awareness of a presently arising dhamma is the most precious form of
kusala there is.

Jon

33666

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 7:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....'

Howard

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon -
...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I see dukkha of dhammas as a relational matter - specifically their
being unsatisfactory, or, better, unsatisfying. They are dukkha in that 1)
they are not a source of true satisfaction, and 2) clinging to them is a
source of distress. Thus, all conditioned dhammas fail to satisfy and they
also are conditions (but not sufficient conditions) for the arising of
distress.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks for your observations about dukkha of dhammas as a relational
matter. Of course, it can be seen that way, but is that the only way it
was expounded by the Buddha? I'm not sure that it was.

You explain that dhammas are dukkha in two senses.

1. 'Dhammas are not a true source of satisfaction.'
This of course is true, but as a reflection of what is said in the suttas
I think it would be more correct to say, 'Dhammas are not capable of being
a true source of satisfaction'. In this form, it is the explanation of
dukkha as 1 of the 3 characteristics (lakkhana) of dhammas, as given in
the suttas.

2. 'Clinging to dhammas is a source of distress.'
Again, I would agree, but I think this is a statement about clinging,
rather than about dhammas. As explained by the Buddha, clinging to
anything (not just to dhammas) is a source of distress. The second Noble
Truth is the truth of *clinging* (not, of *clinging to dhammas*); the
first Noble Truth is dukkha, and this we are told is dhammas/the five
aggregates.

Jon


	

 	 

	
33667

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 3:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/6/04 7:31:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jonoabb@y... writes:

> 
> Howard
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Ken (and Victor) -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> As I see it, your reading is the exact opposite of the normal
> meaning of the English sentence. The normal understanding of "A bhikkhu
> who is concentrated understands things as they really are," would not be
> "At a moment of vipassana, there is right concentration," but, instead,
> would be more along the lines of "At a moment of right concentration (or
> following in the wake of such) is vipassana." It is not vipassana that is
> being given as causal condition, nor is simultaneity being stressed. What
> is being asserted is the role that concentration plays as a condition for
> wisdom. Moreover, it seem to me that this meaning is crystal clear, and I
> suspect that interpreting otherwise is a consequence of being
> uncomfortable with regard to concentration and any suggestion of the worth
> of its cultivation. But this last, of course, is just conjecture on my
> part.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> I would agree that what is being asserted is the role that concentration
> plays as a condition for wisdom.
> 
-----------------------------------------------
Howard:
Then we agree on this issue, for this is all that I am maintaining 
here.
------------------------------------------------
But 'A as a condition for B' covers a> 
> wide range of modes of conditioning, and we need to know for any given
> reference precisely what kind of conditioning role is being asserted.
-----------------------------------------------
Howard:
Sure.
----------------------------------------------

> 
> In my view it is not possible to give an answer to that question purely on
> a reading of the particular sentence quoted ("A bhikkhu who is
> concentrated understands things as they really are"). However, there is
> nothing here that on the face of it suggests a *causative* role, as
> opposed to a more ancillary/supporting kind of role.
> 
-----------------------------------------------
Howard:
Well, no single (paramatthic) condition, including concentration, 
constitutes a cause. But there are so many suttas that emphasize the important 
causal role (as a factor among several), that it strikes me as odd how folks 
seems to be afraid of it. Concentration and intention appear to be two important 
phenomena that "scare the bejesus" out of some of the folks here. (Hmm, perhaps 
that is good for Buddhists? Should I add something about Moses and Mohammad 
just to keep things fair? ;-))
----------------------------------------------------

> 
> Jon
> 
=========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33668

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi, Agrios, Nina, and Rob -

In a message dated 6/6/04 9:13:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
agriosinski@y... writes:

> Hi Nina and Rob,
> 
> would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element
> (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other
> five_consciousness_elements?
> 
======================
A different but related question is why any physical base is required 
at all from the Abhidhammic perspective. Doesn't Abhidhamma take bhavanga 
citta to be the mind door? Also, aren't there supposedly realms of (fully) 
disembodied beings who still function mentally. (Please excuse the "beings" 
terminology. Not to use it would make one's speech too convoluted.)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33669

From: Dhammaasoka <dasoka@n...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 8:43am
Subject: Thanks

Dear RobM and Nina,

Thanks for the reply and comments.

Rob, sorry for the mistake that I make in the question 3. I have mixed
up the manodhatu and the base. Receiving Consciousness is manodhatu
and is different with the Investigating Consciousness. I have misread
and understand it as different in their base.

Sorry for the word "inspecting" too, it should be "investigating".

By the way, may I know when will be the abhidhamma classes start in
Nalanda Buddhist Society in Taman Sri Serdang? Starting from the first
Saturday of July? What is the time then? You might have additional 4
students from Kajang then. :)

There are some questions that are not with me at the moment. I will
try to collect them and put them on as soon as possible. All the reply
answers will be shared with my feloow friends. I am sure they will
feel really great about it.


With metta,
Lee
	
33670

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 9:33am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 029 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The first citta of 89 cittas is called 'somanassa sahagatam 
ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta'.

Functionwise, this lobha mula citta or simply lobha citta does the 
job of javana or mental impulse. Javana 
means 'swift' 'quick' 'fast' 'rapid'. Javana cittas or consciousness 
in mental impulse arise one after another successively in a swift 
manner.

Lobha cittas are cittas that arise most of the time. People are 
filled with moha cittas nearly all the time with a few exception. As 
moha cittas are heard to see, let us see dosa cittas and lobha 
cittas. Dosa cittas can easily be recognised in our own mind. So do 
lobha cittas.

We are most of the time in lobha cittas or otherwise in dosa cittas 
if we are not specifically practising dhamma in some way. The first 
lobha citta is associated with joy or piti. Citta likes the object 
very much with joy. So the first lobha citta is associated with 
somanassa or pleasant mental feeling.

In our daily life, when we are heavily attached to something and we 
feel happy then we are in lobha cittas associated with joy or piti 
and this is called samanassa as explained in the previous post. This 
first lobha citta is associated with ditthi or wrong view. This can 
happen in all ordinary people or beings.

If someone does not believe kamma and its implication then that lobha 
citta is said to be associated with ditthi cetasika. Asankharika 
shows no need to be prompted. There are many examples in our daily 
life for this very first lobha citta of 89 total cittas.

When a young child is having a sweet food, he or she feels happy 
eating that food. He is happy eating that food, so there is 
somanassa. He will not know kamma and its implication and there will 
be ditthi associated with that citta. He eats himself and he likes it 
on his own and no one is stimulating him 'baby you like it'. The 
whole action arises without any outside stimulation or prompting or 
influence.

This citta can arise not only in babies but in all other beings of 
different maturity when there is ditthi or wrong view and there is 
somanassa or joy then that attachment or lobha citta is the first 
lobha citta. There is an exact lay out of how lobha citta arises in a 
vithi vara series of citta. Vithi means 'serial'. Vara means 'the 
turn' and this will be discussed in the coming posts.

The first citta of 89 citta is somanassa sahagatam ditthigata 
sampayuttam asankharika citta. As soon as this citta arises, there 
arises associated cetana cetasika. When both lobha citta and cetana 
cetasika in that citta has disappeared, the potential or kamma does 
not disappear. Instead it stays dormant for a long time transferred 
to next successive cittas that arise one after another and this 
happen till cuti citta of arahats.

This first lobha citta if it has arisen, the possible kamma are kamma 
of patisandhi cittas and kamma of pavatti cittas. Patisandhi is made 
up of 'pati' and 'sandhi'. Pati means 'again' and sandhi means 'to 
link' Patisandhi means 'to link again'. Pavatti means 'in life'. As 
soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. 

That kamma may give rise to patisandhi cittas. If this happens, this 
patisandhi will be duggati patisandhi. Duggati means 'bad realms'. 
That is upekkha sahagatam akusala santirana citta will serve as 
patisandhi citta. This patisandhi citta is the result of past kamma 
while lobha citta had arisen.

At pavatti or when in life that is after patisandhi, the kamma that 
arisen from lobha mula citta gives rise to ahetuka akusala vipaka 
cittas. They will be explained in the coming threads. Some of ahetuka 
akusala cittas are seeing of bad things, hearing of bad things, 
smelling of bad things, tasting of bad things, touching of bad things.


May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33671

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:40am
Subject: Re: [dsg] fetters, jealousy.

Hi Sarah and Howard,
op 01-06-2004 13:22 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:

> Inasmuch as the commentaries are not Buddha word, and inasmuch as I
> don't have full certainty that the Abhidhamma Pitaka isn't a later, synoptic,
> systematic codification of the Buddhadhamma, when I come across something that
> seems to go beyond what is in the suttas, and not just in explanatory detail
> but in the items included, I am inclined to seek sutta sources for it or to
> seek 
> an explanation of the reasoning that led to it.
N: I understand. If possible I also look for suttas, in order to demonstrate
the unity of the Tipitaka.
I looked in my Pali dict PED for more references. In different locations
there are different ways of classifying the fetters. Classifications are not
rigid, they can be different for stressing different aspects. They are also
classified as eight. The Teacher used endless methods (naya, pariyaaya) for
the sake of those capable of being led to enlightenment (bhuddha veneyya). I
do not see such differences as contradictions.
The fetters are classified as five lower fetters and five higher fetters in
the Vibhanga Ch 17, §940, and also in the Suttas. In another classification
(as mentioned in Dhsg and in the Vibhanga Ch 17, § 969) they include envy
and stinginess. 
Sarah:
Quotes:Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the
Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel
publication. 
Interesting details. The sixteen defilements are not exactly the ten
fetters. There is something confusing in the transl of:
7. issa, envy 
8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness
N: macchariya means avarice or stinginess, not envy or jealousy, which stand
for the Pali issa. 
Indeed, we need the commentary here for the understanding of the details.
In the suttas the sotapanna is sometimes designated by different wordings:
who has unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem and lives openhanded,
without stinginess (thus, he has eradicated stinginess or avarice), who has
crossed over doubt without someone else's help, who has the pure Dhamma eye.
But the last one is also used for those who have attained higher stages of
enlightenment. 
Nina.
	
33672

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:40am
Subject: FW: Sutta translation from Pali.

FW from the Pali yahoo list:
Dear friends, 
here is my translation. I follow the triple lineair method.

Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila,
§ 2, ³On hearing Dhamma²).
> (21) 1. Kimbilavaggo, 2. Dhammassavanasutta.m

> 202. <Pa~ncime bhikkhave, aanisa.msaa dhammassavane.
/five/ /monks/ /benefits/ /dhamma hearing/
Monks, there are five benefits in listening to the Dhamma.

Katame pa~nca?
Which five?

> Assuta.m su.naati suta.m pariyodaapeti, ka'nkha.m vitarati
/not heard/he hears/heard/he purifies/ /doubt/ he dispels/
He hears what he had not heard before, he purifies what he had heard, he
dispels doubt,

di.t.thi.m uju.m karoti, cittamassa pasiidati.
/view/ straight/he makes/ the mind of him/becomes calm
he straightens his view, and his mind becomes calm.

Ime kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca aanisa.msaa dhammassavane>ti.
/these indeed/monks/five/ benefits/ in hearing Dhamma
Monks, these are truly the five benefits in listening to the Dhamma.

Remarks:
The practice of the Dhamma begins with listening.
Assuta.m su.naati: he hears what he did not hear before. The Buddha's
teaching is completely different from all other teachings. The Buddha taught
anattaa, non-self. 
suta.m pariyodaapeti: he purifies what he had heard. One may not fully
understand what one heard before. The Dhamma is subtle and deep, one has to
listen and consider it again and again.
ka"nkha.m vitarati:he dispels doubt. He may have doubt about the Buddha, the
Dhamma and the Sangha, about the way leading to the end of defilements. By
the development of the eightfold Path his understanding grows. He becomes
more assured that this is the only way. Doubt will be completely eradicated
at the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotaapanna.
di.t.thi.m uju.m karoti, he straightens his view. Di.t.thuju kamma, the
straightening of one's view is one of the ten kusala kamma pattha. This can
go together with all kinds of kusala. For example, when we develop metta, we
are bound to take selfish affection for metta. We are bound to take akusala
for kusala when there is no panna that knows their different
characteristics. Or one may take the wrong Path for the right Path. One may
not know that the objects of sati and pa~n~naa are whatever naama or ruupa
appears through one of the six doorways, through the five sense-doors and
the mind-door. 
Cittamassa pasiidati, his mind becomes calm. Passaddhi is the cetasika that
is calm, and it arises with each kusala citta. When the citta is kusala, one
is at that moment free from akusala, not disturbed by akusala, and this is
calm. Listening to the Dhamma and considering it is bhaavanaa, mental
development. It is kusala kamma accompanied by pa~n~naa and by calm. There
are many degrees of calm. Listening to the Dhamma and the practice in
accordance with the Dhamma can lead to the highest calm: the eradication of
all defilements.
Nina.
	
33673

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 11:40am
Subject: Brahma viharas, no 2

Brahma viharas, no 2
We read in the ³Atthasåliní ² about the four brahmavihåras ((Book I, Part V,
Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) :
³...love (mettå) has the characteristic of being a procedure of modes of
beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the manifestation or
effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the lovableness
of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; its
failure is the production of lust.²
N: Lust is the translation of lobha, but we should remember that all shades
of lobha are a failure or near ennemy of metta.
A. Sujin: ³We should remember that kusala and akusala can be very close in
appearance. Therefore, we should often realize the characteristics of
realities so that we shall know whether we develop kusala or whether akusala
arises.² 

Htoo writes: <Metta is a pure thing and we do not need to expect friendship
from those whom we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon as
that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and attachment
do not stay together.>
A. Sujin (in Perfections):
<Among the ten perfections, the perfection of mettå, loving-kindness,
follows upon the perfection of determination. For someone who is firmly
established in the development of kusala with the aim to eradicate
defilements and who has accumulated the perfection of determination, it is
natural to practise loving-kindness. We can verify for ourselves whether we
are firmly established in the development of kusala and whether we usually
develop loving-kindness. When someone is not inclined to anger and when he
often practises mettå, it shows that he sees the benefit of non-anger and of
the development of the perfections leading to the eradication of the
defilements. Someone may believe that life belongs to him, but in reality
there are only different dhammas that arise and fall away very rapidly. He
should develop more understanding of his life, of his kusala cittas and
akusala cittas. >
N: The Brahmaviharas of loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and
equanimity are cetasikas, non-self. They cannot be manipulated at will, they
arise because of their appropriate conditions. Metta cannot stay, it falls
away and then there are bound to be akusala cittas since we have accumulated
such an amount of akusala. Pañña, understanding that knows the disadvantage
of akusala and the benefit of kusala is a condition for the arising of the
Brahma-viharas. 
In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity,
tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very necessary for
all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, namely,
attachment and aversion. She says that if there is no metta, there is an
opportunity for akusala. Therefore, we should develop metta, just now. She
said that if there is not metta very often, we should not be worried about
it. It can be developed little by little so that it can be accumulated. If
we say that we cannot do this, defilements will not be eliminated.
****
Nina
	
33674

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 3:48pm
Subject: Re: Brahmaviharas, no 1

Hello Nina, and all

What a nice treat to find Nina on the Brahma-viharas. There is 
lobha when I see such a subject mentionned, yes, but it is lobha that 
will draw me deeper into Dhamma, and eventually be eradicated by 
right understanding.

> N: I shall quote from the tape which is a lecture on the 
Brahmaviharas given by
> A. Sujin to police officers. They took a great interest in the 
practice of
> the Brahma-viharas while performing their duty as police officer. 


Ph: Rob K told me that many of K Sujin's students are governement 
officials. I can't help but feel encouraged by the thought that there 
is a country somewhere where the Buddha's teaching has an impact on 
administrative matters! I remember in the chapter on the perfection 
of loving-kindness in Nina's book on the perfections there is an 
anecdote about a kind official from the Thai Embassy in India(?) who 
was willing to come in when the embassy was closed to help a 
traveller in Nina's group who was having visa trouble (a lost 
passport.) How kind he was, how these gestures of kidness from 
strangers in our lives can be so important. Cultivating the Brahma-
Viharas makes it more likely that kindness and consideration will 
arise in ourselves as well. Now I understand, though, that it must 
start with at least an intellectual understanding of annata. 
Otherwise, there is the idea of a self that is being kind - such a 
wonderful person I am! 

> N: we should be truthful as to our cittas: is the citta kusala 
citta or
> akusala citta? Do we take for kusala citta what is in reality 
akusala citta?

Ph: I have noticed an interesting thing about metta. It rises on its 
own and takes over in situations when one is irritable. For me, in 
the classroom, when I have English conversation students who give 
rise to aversion in me for some reason - usually because the aversion 
is already there for other reasons. It is a 40 minute class, and 
quite often for the first 20 minutes or so there is irritation. But 
there is inevitably kindness arising by the end of the class, or half-
way through. It seems to me that metta takes over from dosa - almost 
always. I never have classes that end on an irritated note. 

Now, is there any chance that I am taking for kusala what is in 
reality akusala here? That my self-image can't stand to have a bad 
class, so it is self that is struggling to create a pleasant 
atmosphere for myself and others? Possibly. Not deeply concerned that 
that is the case, but interesting to think about. I will alwys look 
hard at what I think to be kusala. At another general Buddhist forum, 
this has gotten me labelled as being too hard on myself, too serious. 
Take it easy, I am told. Why should I "take it easy" when I am having 
so much fun starting to investigate these matters! :) 

> N: We need determination for all kinds of kusala. When panna sees 
the benefit
> of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala this will condition the 
arising of
> kusala citta. 

Ph: I am learning how much courage and energy of right effort it 
takes to stay with akusala and look at it instead of leaping away 
towards self-generated pseudo kusala. I like Azita's sign off message 
every time I see it: Is it "courage, patience and good cheer." (If I 
recall correctly. 

N:> A. Sujin stressed the connection between sila and metta. Sila 
includes not
> only abstention from akusala kamma, it also includes paying respect 
to those
> who deserve it and helping others, rendering service.

Ph: I am very fond of Dag Hammerskjold, Secretary Genreal of the 
United Nations in the early 60s who was privately a deeply spiritual 
man, a true Christian. He wrote " Are you satisfied because you have 
curbed and canalized the worst in you? You cannot be saved by a "thou 
shalt not, only by a thou shall." 

N:> The near enemy of metta is attachment. We may take for metta what 
is
> selfish love. If someone sees another person as object of 
attachment he has
> no respect for that person, he does not help him to have kusala 
citta. He
> harms himself and the other person. He also lacks respect of the 
Buddha who
> taught the way leading to the elimination of akusala and the 
development of
> right understanding.

Ph: Do you mean "if someone doesn't see that the other person is an 
object of attachment?" Aren't we usually blinded to our lobha? Again, 
I am getting picky with language. 

In any case, this is a radically interesting idea. That attachment 
to others shows a lack of respect for them, and for the Buddha. Only 
by seeing through to annata can we truly respect the other person. 
There is something paradoxical about this, but very interesting.
And lack of respect for the Buddha. I have never thought about 
this but I suspect it is one of the ideas that will always be coming 
up because of having read this post. Any time I lose faith or the 
energy and allow myself to wallow in self-pity or other forms of 
blatant akusala, knowingly, it is disrespect to the Buddha. Not to 
beat oneself up about it, but it is disrespect.

>N: The connection between sila and metta as explained by A. Sujin I 
find an
> inspiring way of considering abstention from akusala in action, 
speech and
> thoughts. When there is metta there are no conditions for akusala 
through
> body, speech and mind. We shall not hurt or harm others through 
actions or
> speech, we shall abstain from akusala kamma. We consider other 
people as
> true friends and that means that we shall help them to be free from 
what is
> harmful and dangerous. We shall help them to have kusala citta.

Ph: How wonderful to start the day by reading this. It is the rainy 
season now, and rainy days follow one another, and there is the 
chance that I will get gloomy as I have in the past. (Seasonal 
Affective Disorder from lack of solar stimulation - not as pronounced 
since finding The Dhamma two years ago) 

But can we *really* help people to have kusala cittas? We can help 
them to feel calm, and a bit bright from laughing - there are 
endorphins when we laugh. Maybe we can discourage them temporarily 
from indulging in gross akusala. But then their conditions overtake 
whatever benefit we have given them, and akusala cittas will take 
over again. Isn't that a realistic picture? That we can only truly 
and deeply help people by sharing the Dhammma with them? Sorry to end 
on what sounds like a pessimistic note.

Thanks for these posts on Brahma-Viharas, Nina. I am looking 
forward to more!

Metta,
Phil
	
33675

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:21pm
Subject: Vism.XIV 81

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV

81. Among the remaining aggregates, however, whatever has the
characteristic of being felt(34) should be understood, all taken
together, as the feeling aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic
of perceiving, all taken together, as the perception aggregate; and
whatever has the characteristic of forming, all taken together, as the
formations aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of cognizing,
all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate. Herein, since the
rest are easy to understand when the consciousness aggregate has been
understood, we shall therefore begin with the commentary on the
consciousness aggregate.
-----------------------
note 34. ' "Has the characteristic of being felt" means that it has as
its characteristic what is felt, what is experienced as the "taste
(stimulus)" of the object. "Characteristic of perceiving" means that it
has as its characteristic the perceiving of an object classed as blue,
etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception
of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. Forming
(abhisa.nkhara.na) is accumulating, or it is contriving by becoming
interested. And it is because volition is basic in both of these ways
that the formations aggregate is said thus to have the 'characteristic
of forming'. For in expounding the formations aggregate in the
Suttanta-Bhaajaniya of the Vibha.nga, volition was expounded by the
Blessed One thus, "Eye-contact-born volition" (Vbh. 8) and so on. "Has
the characteristic of cognizing" means that it has as its characteristic
that kind of knowing called apprehension of an object in a mode in which
the objective field is apprehended differently from the mode of
perceiving' (Pm.462).
	
33676

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 4:43pm
Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 4 Some deny value of Abhidhamma in this lifetime

Ph: I think you said you came across Abhidhamma in Daily Life in Sri 
Lanka around ?f79?

Rob: ?f89. I had actually had a look at it before in a library
and was impressed with it but I couldn?ft get a copy until
?f89.

Phil: And when you found it...

Rob: Oh I must have read it...well, I have said 10 times, but I know 
more than 20 or so.

Phil: But you had been advised not to study it by some. (note- 
meaning the Abhidhamma, not ADL) 

Rob: Yeah, I remember asking at a retreat I was on, asking a well 
know monk, you know, I put my hand up and asked him about studying 
Abhidhamma. And he said ?gleave that for another life.?h

Phil: Did he say why?

Rob: Not necessary, just practice. He?fs not the only one who
said that. A very bad thing to say, actually. Lucky I didn?ft
listen
to him! Very akusala to say such a thing, to put someone on the 
wrong path. But why did he say that? Because of not understanding. He 
thinks he?fs helping, but it?fs like the Mormons knock on my
door and want to talk to me. They think they?fre doing such a
good thing, to introduce me to Jesus. The fact that it?fs all wrong
view, they don't know. But the khammic result is still the same. And 
the result it has on other people. 

Phil: I wonder if he...I always think of the parable of the poisoned 
arrow. I know some people seem to have the idea that Abdhidhamma 
is... metaphysical?

Rob: Theoretical or something.

Phil: So I guess he thought what you need to work on is suffering 
here and now and that the Abhidhamma wouldn?ft help you with
that.

Rob: I mean, that same (inaudible) if you ask them a question about 
annata, they would also say, ?gpractice! That?fs too hard to
think about. Once you practice you?fll understand it all.?h

Phil: And for them, practice would be?

Rob: Concentrating on the breath. If you concentrate on the breath it 
will all become apparent. 
I mean, you can get quite sad think about the decline of Buddhism 
when you see how much wrong view there is in the world about Buddhism 
now. On the other hand, it was predicted by the Buddha, so you know 
it?fs inevitable. The fact that it?fs happening just shows
the Buddha?fs wisdom in predicting it. No one can stop the
decline,but you help a little by discussing like this, helping other 
people to see. 

(end of pt.4)
	
33677

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 5:05pm
Subject: Dichotomies aplenty!

Hi folks

Firstly, thanks to Howard and Larry and TG for assisting me on the 
Panna translation point (more on that later in this post).

Last century, an American religion scholar called Melford Spiro went 
to Burma to study the Buddhist religion. He wrote a book about it 
entitled "Buddhism and Society: A Great Tradition and its Burmese 
Vicissitudes". Great title, don't you think? Anyway, he formed the 
view that Buddhism in Burma was really TWO religions - one he 
called "kammatic buddhism" (essentially merit-making to have a happy 
rebirth) and the other "nibbanic buddhism" (the way of the "world-
renouncing monk" seeking release from rebirth). Most Burmese and a 
great many monks were followers of kammatic buddhism, he said. 
Indeed, some monks apparently told him that Nibbana was one of the 
heavens! In a diagram he drew of these 2 religions, Spiro 
represented them as parallel lines - suggesting that it didn't matter 
where on the kammatic line you were (heaven or hell) you were always 
the same distance from Nibbana. [cf the kammatic buddhists who were 
placing Nibbana as the top heaven so, to get there, you had to keep 
going "up"].

This dichotomy got me thinking about the place of merit-making.

And there are other dichotomies in play, too. The 2 "sacca" - 
conventional and ultimate. Picture me also, if you will, at a Cooran 
Dhamma Discussion weekend sandwiched between Ken H and Azita neither 
of whom like to stray outside the ultimate realities of the present 
moment. Ouch! (-: And then Ken H starts talking about 
the "ordinary" pre-Buddhistic aspects and the unique teachings of the 
Buddha. Another dichotomy.

So, to the point. Where's the connection between conventional and 
ultimate, between ordinary and unique, between sila/merit and 
release? I would like to quote Bhikkhu Bodhi from The Wheel 259/260:

" ... The accumulation of a 'stock of merit' is a primary requisite 
for acquiring all the fruits of the Buddhist religious life, from a 
pleasant abiding here and now to a favourable rebirth in the life to 
come, from the initial stages of meditative progress to the 
realization of the states of sanctity that come as the fruits of 
entering upon the Noble Path. The highest fruition of merit is 
identical with the culmination of the Buddhist holy life itself - 
that is, emancipation from the shackles of samsaric existence and the 
realization of nibbana, the unconditioned state beyond the 
insubstantial phenomena of the world. The mere piling up of merit, 
to be sure, is not in itself sufficient to guarantee the attainment 
of this goal. Merit is only one requisite, and must be balanced by 
its counterpart to secure the break-through from bondage to final 
freedom. The counterpart of merit is KNOWLEDGE (nana), the direct 
confrontation with the basic truths of existence through the eye of 
INTUITIVE WISDOM. [my upper case, Howard, Larry & TG] Merit and 
knowledge together constitute the two sets of equipment the spiritual 
aspirant requires in the quest for deliverance, the equipment of 
merit (punnasambhara) and the equipment of knowledge (nanasambhara) 
respectively. Each set of equipment has its own contribution to make 
to the fulfilment of the spiritual life. The equipment of merit 
facilitates progress in the course of samsaric wandering: it brings a 
favourable rebirth, the encounter with good friends to guide one's 
footsteps along the path, the meeting with opportunities for 
spiritual growth, the flowering of the lofty qualities of character, 
and the maturation of the spiritual faculties required for higher 
attainments. The equipment of knowledge brings the factor directly 
necessary for cutting the bonds of samsaric existence: the 
penetration of truth, enlightenment, the undistorted comprehension of 
the nature of actuality. Either set of equipment, functioning in 
isolation, is insufficient to the attainment of the goal; either 
pursued alone leads to a deviant, one-sided development that departs 
from the straight path to deliverance taught by Buddha. Merit 
without knowledge produces pleasant fruit and a blissful rebirth, but 
cannot issue in the transcendence of the mundane order and entrance 
upon the supramundane path. And knowledge without the factors of 
merit deteriorates into dry intellectualism, mere erudition, or 
scholasticism, impotent when confronted with the task of grasping a 
truth outside the pale of intellection. When each set of equipment 
complements the other, polishes the other, and perfects the other, 
then they undergo a graduated course of mutual purification 
culminating at the crest in the twin endowments of the emancipated 
saint - in that clear knowledge (vijja) and flawless conduct (carana) 
which make him, in the words of the Buddha, 'supreme among gods and 
men' ..."

I know this quotation doesn't solve any debate like the 
descriptive/prescriptive one. But for me, it helps to tie together 
the dichotomy by showing that merit-making, although mostly tainted 
by avijja, can still condition the continuum towards the Factors for 
Enlightenment. Or am I wrong on that?

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33678

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Dichotomies aplenty!

Hi Andrew,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <athel60@t...> 
wrote:
> Last century, an American religion scholar called Melford Spiro 
went 
> to Burma to study the Buddhist religion. He wrote a book about it 
> entitled "Buddhism and Society: A Great Tradition and its Burmese 
> Vicissitudes". Great title, don't you think? Anyway, he formed 
the 
> view that Buddhism in Burma was really TWO religions - one he 
> called "kammatic buddhism" (essentially merit-making to have a 
happy 
> rebirth) and the other "nibbanic buddhism" (the way of the "world-
> renouncing monk" seeking release from rebirth).

I want to make one small point here before retreating (I am behind on 
a couple of other threads).

In the Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63) and again in the Simsapa Sutta (SN 
LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching:
"Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? 
Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of 
the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to 
cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to 
Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I 
declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin 
of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of 
suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of 
suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is 
beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads 
to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct 
knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared 
it."

In brief, I am not sure that there is a dichotomy.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33679

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 6:47pm
Subject: Re: Thanks

Hi Lee,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" <dasoka@n...> 
wrote:
> By the way, may I know when will be the abhidhamma classes start in
> Nalanda Buddhist Society in Taman Sri Serdang? Starting from the 
first
> Saturday of July? What is the time then? You might have additional 4
> students from Kajang then. :)
> 
First class is July 3rd 15:00 - 17:00 (though I would not be 
surprised if it runs over). Please contact me on my email address 
(rob.moult@j...) if you need a map or directions to Nalanda.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33680

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 7:29pm
Subject: Re: Dichotomies aplenty!

Hi Rob M

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
wrote:
[snip]
> In brief, I am not sure that there is a dichotomy.

Exactly! That's the point I am clumsily making. When I was 
introduced to Buddhism, there was a heavy focus on the conventional 
and merit side of things. Now the pendulum has swung and there is a 
focus on glimpsing the ultimate and knowledge sides. The temptation 
for me now is to dismiss things as merely "conventional" 
or "ordinary" but that would be a bad mistake because there *is* no 
dichotomy. Phil's latest post of his conversation with Rob K deals 
in part with being told to leave certain aspects to another lifetime 
and what bad advice that was. These different aspects "polish" each 
other, to use Bhikkhu Bodhi's words. We need to be careful 
with "dichotomous talk". It can lead to imbalance.

Best wishes
Andrew
	
33681

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sun Jun 6, 2004 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 )

Dear Htoo,
Thank you very much.
I find it diifficult to understand each akusala citta has the intensity of
akusala kamma. There are so many degrees of kusala and akusala. As was
discussed before, when I take a glass of water there is likely to be lobha
already, but not a bad deed through body, speech or mind. True, lobha
accumulates all the time and perhaps you mean: then there will be conditions
for akusala that has the strength of akusala kamma later on.
Nina.
op 06-06-2004 18:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:

> As 
> soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma.
	
33682

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 0:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi James,

Thanks for your comments. We were discussing the fetters eradicated at the
first stage of the sotapanna. We’ve listed these before.

--- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> wrote: 

> James: Thank you for being more direct. That really helps to 
> facilitate discussion. I understand what you are saying about the 
> commentaries, written/translated by Buddhaghosa, and the Abhidhamma, 
> but I haven't seen you give any examples of suttas to prove this 
> contention. 
....
S: In addition to the commentary on the ‘Simile of the Cloth’ I wrote
another post with detail from the suttas themselves, quoting from:
SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and
M104, Saamagaama Sutta
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591

Of course, just like Sakka’s Questions, which you quoted from DN, it
depends how any sutta is interpreted. Certainly there’s no rule about
accepting the commentaries or Abhidhamma or even Suttas for that matter.
....
> James: I don't believe that a sotapanna has eradicated wrong 
> view?? Where is this presented in the suttas? Let's go through the 
> list again, as they are presented by the Buddha in the suttas:
> 
> 1) The stream-winner (sotapanna): is one who has become free from 
> the first three of the ten fetters which bind beings to the sensuous 
> sphere, namely, personality belief, sceptical doubt, and attachment 
> to mere rules and rituals. At this stage, one has realized nibbâna 
> for the first time, and there are 7 more rebirths utmost.
.....
S: All wrong views depend on personality/identity/self view (sakkaya
ditthi) which we both understood to be eradicated at this stage.

See SN41:3 Isidatta as an example:

>“Venerable Elder, there are various views that arise in the world: ‘The
world is eternal’ or ‘the world is not eternal’; or ‘the world is finite’
or ‘The world is infinite’.............or ‘the Tathaagata neither exists
nor does not exist after death’ -these as well as the sixty-two views
mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to
be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?”
<.....>
“As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world
is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned
in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be;
when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.”<
*****
I think the second reference I’m about to give is also useful, but you’re
welcome to skip the commentary note. See MN9, 
Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, transl by ~Naanamoli with commentary (on-line, lost
the link):

"'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a
noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect
confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" 

Commentary note:

“But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane
wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating.   Hence
he said:   whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the
Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme
aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam).   Because of its going
straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going
straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc.,
supramundane right view is "straight."   One possessing that view also
possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold
supramundane Dhamma.[6]   And by becoming disentangled from all the
thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by departing
from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its consummation,
he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" proclaimed
by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the Deathless.”
******
Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33683

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi Howard (& RobM),

Sorry for the delay. You raised a number of good points regarding internal
and external rupas.

--- upasaka@a... wrote:
> Howard:
> I say that depends on what one means by "external rupa". I take
> eye 
> door to be "internal rupa" and visual object to be "external rupa". 
....
S: I think internal and external have different meanings in different
contexts. Here, you are rightly referring to the internal and external
sense fields or ayatanas. In this sense, visible object is always external
ayatana. Good point, but not the use that RobM was indicating (post 33457)
when discussing various causes of visible objects, sounds and so on. Here
we can refer to rupas arising in kalapas in the body as internal and those
outside the body (e.g in rocks) as external.
....
>Both
> of 
> these, however, are functional elements of experience. Some physical
> thing or 
> event "out there" that is a *basis* for the visual object but is
> different from 
> visual object is merely hypothesized and is never known but only
> inferred, 
> whereas visual object is known. 
....
S: Agreed. When the characteristic of v.o. is seen, there is no idea of
‘in here’ or ‘out there’. His original question however related to why
sound is not a kamma-born rupa and v.o. can be. Understanding details
intellectually can help lead to more understanding of conditions and
anatta, though as you point out, it’s not the same as direct understanding
when that characteristic appears.
...
>A "physical" thing or event "out there"
> independent 
> of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no
> more 
> than that. 
....
S: O.K.
...
>We cannot know that there is no such thing, nor can we know
> that 
> there is. When pragmatism is adopted with regard to this, one gets my
> radical 
> phenomenalist view that dismisses such a notion. Rob, as I understand
> him, does 
> not dismiss it, but takes the point of view that the Dhamma doesn't deal
> with 
> it, except when expressing itself via standard conventions. 
....
S: The teachings deal with all dhammas as elements whether experienced or
not. Considering beyond what is directly known now helps us understand
more about anatta so that we don’t cling to an idea of a rock or a person
even if the eyes are closed and no reality is seen. As with any aspect of
the teachings, we needed to hear about it first and to consider as
conditions for it to be known. Without hearing about visible object, we’d
always we think we saw people and things, for example. 
....
> Howard:
> That is just a presumption on your part, Sarah. The "body", and
> "the 
> external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of
> at the 
> moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". 
...
S: Agreed. These are all concepts. I was distinguishing between rupas
conditioned by different causes. There is no kamma involved in the
conditioning of rupas in what we call a rock. When there is seeing,
whether looking at what we call the body or out of what we call a window,
only visible object is experienced.
....
>All
> are 
> the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. To
> speak of 
> kalapas as constituents of these is to make kalapas and their
> constituent rupas 
> constituents of pa~n~natti. 
....
S: No. Rupas are real, pannatti are not. Whether or not there is any idea
of ‘rock’ or ‘tree’, there are still kalapas of rupas rising and falling.
....
>Whatever is knowably actual must be part of 
> experience. Anything else is merely conceptually projected and
> hypothesized, as I 
> see it.
...
S: In terms of experience, yes, I agree. In terms of realities taught by
the Buddha, then no. If none of us were on the earth, it wouldn’t mean
there were no rupas arising and falling. It would mean there was no
experience of them by cittas.
....
> Howard:
> But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of
> major 
> concern, but that these are merely hypothesized.
...
S: Yes, right and wrong hypothesis however. Intellectual understanding of
what is right (the Tipitaka) can lead to more detachment and
understanding. I agree with you that the most important thing is
understanding the presently appearing nama or rupa, however. If that is
thinking, speculation, annoyance, hardness or visible object, it can be
known now and this is the path.

Have I clarified or confused?

Metta,

Sarah
====


	
33684

From: bodhi2500 <seisen_@h...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:33am
Subject: Re: Brahma viharas, no 2

Hi Nina, All,


Nina wrote:
> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity,
> tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very 
necessary for
> all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, 
namely,
> attachment and aversion. 
> ****
> Nina

Is every arising of kusala citta, with accompanying cetasika 
tatramajjhattata, also a moment of developing the perfection upekkha 
and at the same time a dwelling in the Brahma-Vihara Upekkha?

Thanks
Steve
	
33685

From: buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:16am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Friend Sarah,

Sarah: In addition to the commentary on the `Simile of the Cloth' I 
wrote another post with detail from the suttas themselves, quoting 
from: SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and
M104, Saamagaama Sutta
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591

James: Thank you for this link; I hadn't read this post. However, I 
don't really see how these sutta quotes relate to the subject we are 
discussing. None of them speak about jealousy. Did I miss 
something? I read that post a couple of times and I don't see 
jealousy mentioned in the sutta quotes. The first sutta, SN55, 
speaks about stinginess being eradicated, but not jealousy. 
Couldn't one be generous and jealous at the same time? I think so. 
One could be jealous that others have more money to give away! ;-)) 
hehehe…

Metta, James
	
33686

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:19am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 3 Does break from DSG give more time for reflection?

Hi Phil & All,

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking 
> occasional breaks from discussion when reflecting on suttas or other 
> teachings? 
....
S: I’d say no rule at all, otherwise it’s like we’re trying to plan a
course of action again, rather than understanding conditions and anatta.
As Rob said, there can be awareness and understanding anytime. As you’ve
found before, we may plan to take a break and end up posting or vice
versa. I was intending to write on Friday, but my old arm problem was
playing up and I couldn’t. Anything can happen by conditions and in the
end there are just rapidly changing namas and rupas.

A friend mentioned off-list that perhaps it’s better not to write or speak
unless one can be sure all the conditions of good speech are present -- so
I'd like to include one or two comments on this here as well -- i.e 

“It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken
affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of
good-will.’ AN V.198
****
Again with other suttas we need to understand right speech as referring to
rapidly changing cittas that should be known. Whether I write or keep
quiet now, there are bound to be kusala and akusala cittas. It’s like when
we give a gift or help our students too, we can’t say what is good and bad
or right and wrong. Only the development of satipatthana will help
understand and develop detachment from whatever is conditioned now.
Otherwise, so easily it’s just more clinging to my ‘right speech’ or doing
what is best for ‘me’ or ‘my practice’ instead of just helping or having
metta or understanding reality at this moment. Of course, the cittas will
always be mixed. This doesn’t mean waiting for them all to be pure before
doing anything, otherwise there’d be no discussion list for a start;-).

I heard K.Sujin saying that when there is a story about whether ‘this is
this’ or ‘that is that’ it ‘cannot help eradicate the idea of self’. She
added, ‘citta arises and falls so fast by conditions - we cannot say this
word is conditioned by kusala and that by akusala. It’s most beneficial to
understand reality.’ She also reminded us that when there is attachment to
‘my good speech’ or aversion to ‘my bad speech’, there’s lot’s of akusala
and clinging to self again. 

The reminders Nina gave on metta are very helpful too:
“We do not think of ourselves expecting friendship from others. Metta or
friendship arises with the citta,and if we expect something for ourselves
there is no true metta. Thus, we need truthfulness, sincerity at all
times.” We could add that when we offer assistance or try to clarify
points for example, there’s no need or use in expecting friendship or
appreciation. We just try to act as good friends, that’s all.*

I liked the comments you and others made about conceit as well. As Nina
said, even while thinking ‘these flowers are not fresh’. There are more
and more subtle layers of kilesa (defilements). More examples of conceit
popping in: His/her answer isn’t as clearly put as it could be, I
understood that point better, the job could be done better, I wouldn’t
speak like that, I’d have added a reference......etc etc
....
>Of course I know it is a mistake to think that conditions 
> such as silence and uncrowdedness must be in place before 
> understanding can arise, and yet, thinking of the sutta above, I want 
> to think more about this "wise attention."....Was it yonisomething? What
is that yonisomething and how rare 
> is its arising?
....
This yonisomething is yoniso manasikara or wise attention which arises
with all kusala cittas. (See under U.P.) Again there can be wise attention
with satipatthana anytime - even now or at times when one feels rather
overwhelmed or thinks about needing to absorb the material. The practice
always comes back to this moment, not to waiting for another time or
setting rules.

From the Tiika (sub-commentary) to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl):

“Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of
wisdom (pa~n~naa bhaavanaa). Just the contemplation [S: i.e
understanding] of material form (corporeality) [S: i.e rupas], of feeling,
consciousness [S: i e namas] or mental objects [S: namas and rupas], 
constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness [S: i e
satipatthana or the practice taught by the Buddha]”

Metta,

Sarah

*(also see in U.P. under brahma viharas and sacca (truth) too;-))
==================


	
33687

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi RobM (Nina & Agrios),

--- robmoult <rob.moult@j...> wrote: > Hi Nina / Sarah / others,
> 
> I would like to summarize the recent points made on the heart base 
> (hadayavatthu):
> 
> On page 144 of In CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:
> 
> According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical 
> support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense 
> consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their 
> bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart base is not expressly 
> mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, 
> simply speaks of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element 
> and mind-consciousness element occur". The Commentaries, however, 
> subsequently specific "that matter" to be the heart-base, a cavity 
> situated within the physical heart.
> <end quote>
...
Text from Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Compendium of Bases (vatthusangaha) (CMA
transl):

“In the summary of bases, there are six bases, namely, eye-, ear-, nose-,
tongue-, body-, and heart-base.

All these, too, are found in the sense world. but in the fine-material
world three bases - nose, tongue, and body - are not found. In the
immaterial world no base exists.”
*****
The full commentary note which I think B.Bodhi is summarising above, found
in the comy to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ch 6 (PTS, transl by Wijeratne
& Gethin, p221):

“The heart-base is just the heart itself which, being a support for the
mind-element and the mind-consciousness elements, is also a base. thus it
has the characteristic of being the support of two elements, and it exists
within the chamber of the heart supported by blood of the amount of half a
cup. Although it is not mentioned in the section on materiality (in the
Dhammasangani] ***it should be understood that its existence is in
accordance with the scriptural tradition and reasonable***. Therein the
statement that has come down in the Patthana - namely ‘materiality, upon
which the mind-element and the mind-consciousness element occur depending
for support, is a condition by way of support-condition for the
mind-element and the mind-consciousness element, and also the dhammas
associated with it’ - constitutes the tradition. Its reasonableness should
be understood as follows:

‘For beings of the sense and form existences, the two [consciousness]
elements exist supported by actual physical elements, since these exist in
connection with materiality in the same manner as eye-consciousness, etc.

These [two elements] are not supported by the eye, etc., since these exist
as the support of something else; nor are they connected with visible
objects, etc., since these occur outside.

Nor is life [the support], since this is engaged in a different function;
nor the two sexes, since [the two consciousness elements] occur in the
absence of these;

Therefore it should be understood that there is a base other than these,
constituted by the physical elements. But since it would create a
discrepancy in the pairs of base and object, the Great Sage has not
declared this in the text of the Dhammasangaini.’ ”
*****
S: In other words the base has to be a rupa amongst the 28 rupas and by a
process of elimination and for other reasons, it has to be the heart-base,
I understand.

Metta,

Sarah
p.s you’ve given excellent and detailed answers to Lee’s qus. That’s great
that you’ll be meeting soon. I hope you or Lee gives us a report and more
about your talks.
=============


	
33688

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:18am
Subject: Ceasing Craving !

Friends:
Cutting the crucial link between Feeling & Craving:

The Buddha said:

One seeing a form with the eye ...
One hearing a sound with the ear ...
One smelling a scent with the nose ...
One tasting a flavor with the tongue ...
One touching a tangible with the body ...
One thinking a thought with the mind ...
One should Not Lust after it, if it is pleasant.
One should Neither Disgust it, if it is unpleasant.
One should remain aware of the body well 
established within an infinite mind ... #
Thus one understands the Release of Mind & 
the Release through Understanding, wherein all these 
detrimental mental states cease without remainder ...
Having left behind both all approaching & all opposing; 
Having eliminated both all attraction & all repulsion;
Then whatever feeling one feels, whether pleasant, painful or
neither pleasant nor painful, one does not delight in that feeling;
one does not welcome that feeling; nor sink in that feeling;
one does not follow, hold on to nor crave that very feeling...
So doing, delight in the various feelings gradually ceases in one...
With the ceasing of delight, comes the ceasing of clinging.
With the ceasing of clinging, comes the ceasing of becoming.
With the ceasing of becoming, comes the ceasing of rebirth.
With the ceasing of birth, comes the ceasing of all ageing, 
sickness, death, sorrow, crying, pain, melancholy & despair.
So indeed is the cessation of this entire mass of Suffering ...


--oo0oo-- 


The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha: Majjhima Nikaya I 270.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/index.html
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X
http://www.wisdompubs.org/products/086171072X.cfm


Comments #:
Awareness of internal organs of Body prevents lust...
Mind made Infinite by Universal friendliness, pity,
mutual joy & balanced equanimity prevents aversion...
Thus one remains mindfully alert, neutral & indifferent,
watching the immediate present, so whenever feeling
inevitably arise, it do never overcome nor dominate mind.
If one is unaware, pleasant feeling makes craving arise.
If one is unaware, painful feeling makes aversion arise.
If one is unaware, neutral feeling makes neglect arise.
Craving, aversion & neglect are the 3 roots of Suffering! 
Yet by being acutely alert & aware, this craving is prevented,
whether it is directed towards (as lust) or away (as anger)
from the object. By the final irreversible destruction of 
Craving, there is Release. By this Release there is the Certainty:
This & such is Freedom, done is done, no more of this is there...






All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma






	
33689

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 )

Dear Nina,

Thanks for your comment on the thread. Yes, as you said there are so 
many degrees of kusala and akusala. From very subtle to very wicked 
ones. We can apparently see that there are also so many forms of 
cittas that arise as results of past kamma like 10 dvipancavinnana 
cittas and others like sampaticchana cittas and santirana cittas and 
mahavipaka cittas that arise in kama sattas. We don't need to worry 
minor accumulations as they cannot be avoided. This is evident that 
there will not be no continuous good things in kama bhumis.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Htoo,
> Thank you very much.
> I find it diifficult to understand each akusala citta has the 
intensity of
> akusala kamma. There are so many degrees of kusala and akusala. As 
was
> discussed before, when I take a glass of water there is likely to 
be lobha
> already, but not a bad deed through body, speech or mind. True, 
lobha
> accumulates all the time and perhaps you mean: then there will be 
conditions
> for akusala that has the strength of akusala kamma later on.
> Nina.
> op 06-06-2004 18:33 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...:
> 
> > As 
> > soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma.
	
33690

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:26am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 030 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The 2nd citta of 89 cittas is also lobha mula citta or attachment 
rooted consciousness. This lobha citta in its full name is called as

'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta'. 

This citta arises with somanassa or pleasant mental feeling. It 
arises mixed with ditthi cetasika or wrong view believing that there 
is no results of any action and there is no kamma. 

Sasankharika is made up of 'sa' and 'sankhara'. Sa 
means 'with' 'together with' 'along with' 'in the presence of 
something '. So sasankharika means 'with prompt' or 'with influence' 
or 'with stimulation'.

There is a child. He is given a unknown packet. He takes it. He does 
not know what is in it. His mother tells him, 'John, open it up and 
take the sweet inside'. At the time of receiving the packet, the 
child did not know anyhting connected to the packet and he is 
indifferent. But as soon as he hears his mother's word 'sweet' he 
becomes delighted. Because he has experience with sweet. 

At that time lobha citta arises in him. That citta brings pleasant 
mental feeling. The child does not know any kamma or anything related 
to it. So there is somanassa and ditthi. And the citta arise only 
when prompted at least by himself or by his mother's word.

This sasankharika citta can also arise in any other people with 
different maturity. In this sasankharika lobha citta, there arise 
thina cetasika and middha cetasika. Thina is sloth, slowness of citta 
and middha is torpor, slowness of cetasikas. Sasankharika cittas are 
not so strnog as in cases of assankharika cittas. 

In terms of kamma, asankharika cittas will give rise to much much 
more strong degrees of effects while sasakharika cittas will reslt in 
less strong effect. As these 2 cittas are akusala cittas, their 
results will be vipaka cittas which will be bad things as they are 
the result of akusala cittas. 


May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33691

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:28am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi, Sarah (and James) -

In a message dated 6/7/04 4:11:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> Hi James,
> 
> Thanks for your comments. We were discussing the fetters eradicated at the
> first stage of the sotapanna. We’ve listed these before.
> 
> --- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@y...> wrote: 
> 
> >James: Thank you for being more direct. That really helps to 
> >facilitate discussion. I understand what you are saying about the 
> >commentaries, written/translated by Buddhaghosa, and the Abhidhamma, 
> >but I haven't seen you give any examples of suttas to prove this 
> >contention. 
> ....
> S: In addition to the commentary on the ‘Simile of the Cloth’ I wrote
> another post with detail from the suttas themselves, quoting from:
> SN55 (Sotaapattisa.myutta):37 (7) Mahaanaama (Bodhi transl)and
> M104, Saamagaama Sutta
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33591
> 
> Of course, just like Sakka’s Questions, which you quoted from DN, it
> depends how any sutta is interpreted. Certainly there’s no rule about
> accepting the commentaries or Abhidhamma or even Suttas for that matter.
> ....
> >James: I don't believe that a sotapanna has eradicated wrong 
> >view?? Where is this presented in the suttas? Let's go through the 
> >list again, as they are presented by the Buddha in the suttas:
> >
> >1) The stream-winner (sotapanna): is one who has become free from 
> >the first three of the ten fetters which bind beings to the sensuous 
> >sphere, namely, personality belief, sceptical doubt, and attachment 
> >to mere rules and rituals. At this stage, one has realized nibbâna 
> >for the first time, and there are 7 more rebirths utmost.
> .....
> S: All wrong views depend on personality/identity/self view (sakkaya
> ditthi) which we both understood to be eradicated at this stage.
> 
> See SN41:3 Isidatta as an example:
> 
> >“Venerable Elder, there are various views that arise in the world: ‘The
> world is eternal’ or ‘the world is not eternal’; or ‘the world is finite’
> or ‘The world is infinite’.............or ‘the Tathaagata neither exists
> nor does not exist after death’ -these as well as the sixty-two views
> mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to
> be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?�
> <.....>
> “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world
> is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned
> in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be;
> when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.�<
> *****
> 
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Here, Sarah, you make a telling point, IMO. I think that the logic 
that infers the uprooting of wrong view at stream entry from the 1) the uprooting 
of personality view and 2) “As to the various views that arise in the world, 
householder, ‘the world
is eternal’....-these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned
in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view,these views come to be;
when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.� is 
irrefutable. There is only one question I have in this regard: Is the Pali for 'identity 
view' the same as the Pali for 'personality view', and, if not, does identity 
view go *beyond* personality view. If they translate tyhe same Pali or Pali 
terma with the same meaning, then I consider this particular issue settled.
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I find the next reference irrelevant.
--------------------------------------------------

> I think the second reference I’m about to give is also useful, but you’re
> welcome to skip the commentary note. See MN9, 
> Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, transl by ~Naanamoli with commentary (on-line, lost
> the link):
> 
> "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a
> noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect
> confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" 
> 
> Commentary note:
> 
> “But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane
> wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating. Hence
> he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the
> Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme
> aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of its going
> straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going
> straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc.,
> supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view also
> possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold
> supramundane Dhamma.[6] And by becoming disentangled from all the
> thickets of (wrong) views, by abandoning all the defilements, by departing
> from the round of rebirths, by bringing the practice to its consummation,
> he is said to have come by the noble path to this "true Dhamma" proclaimed
> by the Enlightened One, that is, Nibbana, the plunge into the Deathless.�
> ******
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
> 
=========================
With metta,
Howard 

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33692

From: Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 5:56am
Subject: Page 37 for Patthana Dhamma, Object Condition/ Arammana Paccaya

Dear Dhamma Friends,

Recently the page 37 has been released. In that page, ongoing discussion of object condition in relation with daily life continues to other arammana namely sound object, smell object, taste object, and touch-sense object. It can now be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana37.html .

In that page the previous page 36 is linked. If patthana have not ever been studied, initiation of patthana dhamma can be studied starts from the first page at http://www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html . 

The discussions will be continued as time allows and if there arise any queries just put the questions on the list triplegem or JourneyToNibbana or dhamma-list or dhammastudygroup. Hoping discussions are helpful and these may add to the existing practice.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing




	
33693

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi, Sarah -

What I will add below does not add anything new that is of much 
substance; it is more in the form of jousting! ;-) I just feel the need to respond 
to a few statements.

In a message dated 6/7/04 5:15:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard (& RobM),
> 
> Sorry for the delay. You raised a number of good points regarding internal
> and external rupas.
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote:
> >Howard:
> > I say that depends on what one means by "external rupa". I take
> >eye 
> >door to be "internal rupa" and visual object to be "external rupa". 
> ....
> S: I think internal and external have different meanings in different
> contexts. Here, you are rightly referring to the internal and external
> sense fields or ayatanas. In this sense, visible object is always external
> ayatana. Good point, but not the use that RobM was indicating (post 33457)
> when discussing various causes of visible objects, sounds and so on. Here
> we can refer to rupas arising in kalapas in the body as internal and those
> outside the body (e.g in rocks) as external.
> ....
> >Both
> >of 
> >these, however, are functional elements of experience. Some physical
> >thing or 
> >event "out there" that is a *basis* for the visual object but is
> >different from 
> >visual object is merely hypothesized and is never known but only
> >inferred, 
> >whereas visual object is known. 
> ....
> S: Agreed. When the characteristic of v.o. is seen, there is no idea of
> ‘in here’ or ‘out there’. His original question however related to why
> sound is not a kamma-born rupa and v.o. can be. Understanding details
> intellectually can help lead to more understanding of conditions and
> anatta, though as you point out, it’s not the same as direct understanding
> when that characteristic appears.
> ...
> >A "physical" thing or event "out there"
> >independent 
> >of experience is a part of our world of concept, but it may well be no
> >more 
> >than that. 
> ....
> S: O.K.
> ...
> >We cannot know that there is no such thing, nor can we know
> >that 
> >there is. When pragmatism is adopted with regard to this, one gets my
> >radical 
> >phenomenalist view that dismisses such a notion. Rob, as I understand
> >him, does 
> >not dismiss it, but takes the point of view that the Dhamma doesn't deal
> >with 
> >it, except when expressing itself via standard conventions. 
> ....
> S: The teachings deal with all dhammas as elements whether experienced or
> not. Considering beyond what is directly known now helps us understand
> more about anatta so that we don’t cling to an idea of a rock or a person
> even if the eyes are closed and no reality is seen.
----------------------------------------------
Howard:
Clinging to rocks and persons is overcome by realizing that such 
"things" are, in fact, never observed, but only mentally constructed. (The same is 
true for alleged rupas that are different from sense objects, but are claimed 
to underlie sense objects.)
---------------------------------------------
As with any aspect of> 
> the teachings, we needed to hear about it first and to consider as
> conditions for it to be known. Without hearing about visible object, we’d
> always we think we saw people and things, for example. 
> 
---------------------------------------------
Howard:
Unless one is extraordinarily adept spiritually, hearing about what is 
actually observed is necessary. But it is not sufficient. The training of the 
mind to see what really arises is necessary as well.
---------------------------------------------

> ....
> >Howard:
> > That is just a presumption on your part, Sarah. The "body", and
> >"the 
> >external rocks", and, in fact, "the window that you are looking out of
> >at the 
> >moment" all have as much reality to them as "my tree in the garden". 
> ...
> S: Agreed. These are all concepts. I was distinguishing between rupas
> conditioned by different causes. There is no kamma involved in the
> conditioning of rupas in what we call a rock. When there is seeing,
> whether looking at what we call the body or out of what we call a window,
> only visible object is experienced.
> ....
> >All
> >are 
> >the imagined referents of mind constructs, mere story projections. To
> >speak of 
> >kalapas as constituents of these is to make kalapas and their
> >constituent rupas 
> >constituents of pa~n~natti. 
> ....
> S: No. Rupas are real, pannatti are not. Whether or not there is any idea
> of ‘rock’ or ‘tree’, there are still kalapas of rupas rising and falling.
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
How do you know there are kalapas? Have you ever encountered one, or 
do you just believe? If only believed, well, I think trees are prettier to 
believe in! ;-)
------------------------------------------------

> ....
> >Whatever is knowably actual must be part of 
> >experience. Anything else is merely conceptually projected and
> >hypothesized, as I 
> >see it.
> ...
> S: In terms of experience, yes, I agree. In terms of realities taught by
> the Buddha, then no. If none of us were on the earth, it wouldn’t mean
> there were no rupas arising and falling. It would mean there was no
> experience of them by cittas.

------------------------------------------------
Howard:
That is a presumption, and it is one that is in principle untestable.
-------------------------------------------------

> ....
> >Howard:
> > But I go further, and point out that not only are these not of
> >major 
> >concern, but that these are merely hypothesized.
> ...
> S: Yes, right and wrong hypothesis however.
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
But there is no basis for distinguishing whether belief in the 
existence of unobservable phenomena is right or wrong. This is a matter of untestable 
faith - now you bring in "religion". ;-)
---------------------------------------------------
Intellectual understanding of> 
> what is right (the Tipitaka) can lead to more detachment and
> understanding. I agree with you that the most important thing is
> understanding the presently appearing nama or rupa, however. If that is
> thinking, speculation, annoyance, hardness or visible object, it can be
> known now and this is the path.
> 
--------------------------------------------
Howard:
Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas that 
are different from sense objects? I doubt it. 
If he had, however, I wouldn't accept it - I would not accept on the 
basis of authority a proposition that is in principle unverifiable. The Buddha, 
himself, cautioned accepting a matter on the basis of authority, but urged 
our investigating the matter for ourselves.
---------------------------------------------

> 
> Have I clarified or confused?
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
===========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33694

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:08am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Sarah,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> "In the summary of bases, there are six bases, namely, eye-, ear-, 
nose-,
> tongue-, body-, and heart-base.
> 
> All these, too, are found in the sense world. but in the fine-
material
> world three bases - nose, tongue, and body - are not found. In the
> immaterial world no base exists."
> *****
> The full commentary note which I think B.Bodhi is summarising 
above, found
> in the comy to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ch 6 (PTS, transl by 
Wijeratne
> & Gethin, p221):
> 
> "The heart-base is just the heart itself which, being a support for 
the
> mind-element and the mind-consciousness elements, is also a base. 
thus it
> has the characteristic of being the support of two elements, and it 
exists
> within the chamber of the heart supported by blood of the amount of 
half a
> cup. Although it is not mentioned in the section on materiality 
(in the
> Dhammasangani] ***it should be understood that its existence is in
> accordance with the scriptural tradition and reasonable***. Therein 
the
> statement that has come down in the Patthana - namely `materiality, 
upon
> which the mind-element and the mind-consciousness element occur 
depending
> for support, is a condition by way of support-condition for the
> mind-element and the mind-consciousness element, and also the 
dhammas
> associated with it' - constitutes the tradition. Its reasonableness 
should
> be understood as follows:
> 
> `For beings of the sense and form existences, the two 
[consciousness]
> elements exist supported by actual physical elements, since these 
exist in
> connection with materiality in the same manner as eye-
consciousness, etc.
> 
> These [two elements] are not supported by the eye, etc., since 
these exist
> as the support of something else; nor are they connected with 
visible
> objects, etc., since these occur outside.
> 
> Nor is life [the support], since this is engaged in a different 
function;
> nor the two sexes, since [the two consciousness elements] occur in 
the
> absence of these;
> 
> Therefore it should be understood that there is a base other than 
these,
> constituted by the physical elements. But since it would create a
> discrepancy in the pairs of base and object, the Great Sage has not
> declared this in the text of the Dhammasangaini.' "
> *****
> S: In other words the base has to be a rupa amongst the 28 rupas 
and by a
> process of elimination and for other reasons, it has to be the 
heart-base,
> I understand.

=====

I have followed this logic and agree that it is logical and 
reasonable that there is a base among the rupas to support the mind-
element and the mind-consciousness-element.

What is not logical and reasonable (at least to me) is that this rupa 
is associated with the physical heart. At the time of the patisandhi 
citta there is no physical heart. I still feel more comfortable 
sticking with the wording of the Patthana, "that matter in dependence 
on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur" 
rather than introducing the physical heart into the discussion.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33695

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

Phil

--- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > Talk with Rob pt.2 
> 
> I was telling Rob about how I came to be interested in Abhidhamma.
> 
> Phil: Soon after coming to the group I read a post by Jon about how 
> studying Abhidhamma before studying the suttana is recommended.

Er, if I said that then I need to make a quick correction. There is not
any 'better' order for studying the dhamma. It's not a case of less time
on suttas, more on Abhidhamma; one reads what one feels inclined to. 
Actually for most people it's the suttas that pique the interest
initially.

Of course, I do believe that the study of the Abhidhamma, or more
correctly, of things found in the Abhidhamma, is a great help to the
understanding of the suttas, and I would encourage anyone so inclined to
spend more time reading or discussing those aspects of the teachings.

Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly unusual
and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. And I
do not include myself there ;-))

Jon


33696

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:23am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 031 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The 3rd citta of 89 cittas in its full name is 

'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta'.

Somanassa has been explained and it is 'pleasant mental feeling'. It 
is happiness. Vippayutta means 'not associated with'. So this citta 
is a state of mind when there is happiness and when there is a belief 
that kamma does exist and when there is no prompt or stimulation.

This citta can be seen in case of greediness of an adult who is a 
learned person. When a man wins the state lottery, there arise the 
3rd citta if he is a well-learned person and knows kamma well. So 
there is no ditthi at that time. So it is ditthigata vippayuttam.

As he is happy at that time, he has somanassa as a feeling. No one 
need to push him to be greedy in this case and this is asankharika or 
unprompted. 

The 4th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is 

'somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam sasankharika citta'.

This citta as compared to the 3rd citta, it needs to be prompted.

This citta can be seen in case of a man having greediness as a mental 
impulse while he hears that the blacken materials in his hand, which 
he picked up from on a common road, is gold. As an adult who is a 
learned and knows kamma, there is no ditthi and this citta is ditthi 
gata vippayutta. As soon as he hears the things in his hand is gold 
he feels happy and joyous. This is somanassa. But when he picked 
these materials on the way he did not feel anything. As the things he 
picked up are on the common road, he has an opportunity to possess 
all those thing. But he does not know that it is gold. When it is 
said to be gold, he become greedy. This information as sound from 
outside is prompting to arise greediness. So the 4th citta is 
sasankharika citta.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	

 	 

	
33697

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Howard

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon -
...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, no single (paramatthic) condition, including concentration,
constitutes a cause. But there are so many suttas that emphasize the
important causal role (as a factor among several), that it strikes me as
odd how folks seems to be afraid of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well this is the nub of the matter. There are many suttas that emphasise
the important *conditioning* role of different factors including
concentration. But there are very few, if any (none come to mind as I
write), that talk about a *cause* of insight/enlightenment. Indeed, the
whole of the teachings is about how dhammas *condition* each other in
various ways (think dependent origination, Four Noble Truths, etc), and
the conditioned nature of everything.

As I'm sure I've made clear on previous occasions, I'd be happy to look at
any of the 'many suttas' you claim as support here.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Concentration and intention appear to be two important phenomena that
"scare the bejesus" out of some of the folks here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Another of your periodic sweeping statements, Howard ;-)). Any chance of
some specifics that could form the basis of a discussion (I don’t want to
get into a 'Yes you are', 'No I'm not' kind of exchange)?

Jon


	
33698

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat...

Hi Howard (James & All), 

--- upasaka@a... wrote:
>There is only one question I have in this regard: Is the
> Pali for 'identity 
> view' the same as the Pali for 'personality view', 
....
S: Yes - sakkaayadi.t.thi. 

In his introduction to the Brahmajala Sutta and commentary (published by
BPS), B.Bodhi refers to this same passage and here he uses ‘personality
view’.

I was recommending this text to someone recently here. As many people
don’t have it, I’ll quote the piece from the intro which includes this
with B.Bodhi’s comments (part of which I’ve given before). I’d be
interested to hear any comments on it:
......
BB: “All the views dealt with in the Brahmajala originate from one of two
sources, reasoning and meditative experience. The fact that a great
number, perhaps the majority, have their source in the experience of
meditative attainments has significant implications for our understanding
of the genetic process behind the fabrication of views. It suffices to
caution us agaisnt the hasty generalization that speculative views take
rise through a preference for theorization over the more arduous task of
practice. 

“As our [Brahmajala] sutta shows, many of these views make their
appearance only at the end of a prolonged course of meditation involving
firm renunciation, intense devotion, and keen contemplative zeal. For
these views the very basis of their formulation is a higher experience
rather than the absence of one. That views of a metaphysical nature result
from such endeavours indicates that they spring from a source more deeply
grounded in the human mind even than the disposition to theorization. 
This source is the clinging to being, the fundamental need to establish
and maintain, within the empirical personality, some permanent basis of
selfhood or individualized existence. The clinging to being issues in a
‘personality view’ (sakkaayadi.t.thi) affirming the presence of an abiding
self in the pyschophysical organismin one of twenty ways: as identical
with, possessing, contained within or containing one or another of the
five aggregates that constitute the individual personality - material
form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Arisen
already at the pre-reflective level, this view in turn becomes the basis
for latter reflective interpretations of existence, crystallizing into
the sixty-two views of the sutta. As it is explained: 

“Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world,
...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is
owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view
exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3).

“Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of
ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajala
shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it
by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at
the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing
red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene
will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red
glasses everything he sees will be coloured red. The change will only give
him a larger area to see as red, but will not help him to see things in
their true colour. Analogously, if one begins a practice with a view of
self, and persists without changing this view, then whatever develops in
the course of practice will go to confirm the initial thesis. the
attainments will not themselves alter the view, while the deeper states of
consciousness that unfold will be misconstrued in terms of the erroneous
notion. Taking the idea of self at its face value, as indicating a real
entity, the theorist will proceed to weave aroound it a web of
speculations apparently confirmed by his attainments: as to whether the
self is eternal or non-eternal, everlasting or perishable, finite or
infinite, universal or individual, etc.

“What is essential, therefore, from the Buddhist standpoint, is not simply
to practice rather than to theorize, but to practice on the basis of right
understanding. Thence in contrast to the speculative systems, the Buddhist
system of meditation takes as its foundation the doctrine of egolessness
or non-self (anattaa)” <end quote>
*****

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33699

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

Phil (and All)

Er, another correction/clarification...

--- Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> wrote: > Phil
...
> Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly unusual
> and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. And I
> do not include myself there ;-))

I mean of course that I did not have that level of interest in the
Abhidhamma at such an early stage of my interest in the Dhamma, and that
is despite having a lot of exposure to it in various forms (including
getting the first lot of ADL printed, and doing all the proofreading etc
that that entailed). In my case it has been something that has developed
over years (if not decades!).

Jon

	
33700

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:23am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

Hi Jon

> > Phil: Soon after coming to the group I read a post by Jon about 
how 
> > studying Abhidhamma before studying the suttana is recommended.
> 
Jon:> Er, if I said that then I need to make a quick correction. 

Ph: No, no. That's not possible, Jon. No corrections are 
permitted!;) 

Actually, I twisted you words unintentionally. I think it was more 
that you were stressing the importance of Abhidhamma for being able 
to understand the suttas, not the order per se.

Here's that passage that changed my life!: 

"First, just to clarify the context of my post, what I said there is
not so much my own view as my understanding of what is being said in
the texts, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries.

I believe that a knowledge of the Abhidhamma and commentaries in
necessary for a proper understanding of the discourses. What was
said in the suttas was addressed to persons who were on the whole of
highly developed understanding, many of them ripe for immediate or
imminent enlightenment (in other words, of much greater understanding
than ourselves), so much of it goes over our heads, even though the
language seems familiar. Without the help of the Abhidhamma and
commentaries we may misconstrue the suttas." (From somewhere in the 
Useful Posts)
(end quote)

As you said, though, it is unlikely that we will come across and 
feel a connection to Abdhidhamma without an initial brush with the 
suttas. An initial reading of suttas with a lot of misconstrue-ing, 
and then a later reading with less misconstrue-ing thanks to having 
studied Abhidhamma a little, and so on down the line...

> Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly 
unusual
> and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) minority. 
And I
> do not include myself there ;-))

Ph: It just seems so logical to me. What on earth could be of more 
importance than what we experience though the sense doors, including 
the mind? What else is there, really? People at another forum chide 
me for being an uptight intellectual. There is this idea that 
Abhidhamma is theoretical wankery. What could be less theoretical 
than studying what is arising at this very moment? I do feel 
fortunate for having tuned into that for whatever reason, even though 
I am still at a very basic level of understanding Abhidhamma. 

I will be doing a lot more study of suttas in the years to come 
than I am now. And getting more out of it than I would have without 
reading that post of yours that led me to Abhidhamma. Thank you! 

Metta,
Phil
	
33701

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 3:28am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/7/04 10:16:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jonoabb@y... writes:

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Concentration and intention appear to be two important phenomena that
> "scare the bejesus" out of some of the folks here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Another of your periodic sweeping statements, Howard ;-)). Any chance of
> some specifics that could form the basis of a discussion (I don’t want to
> get into a 'Yes you are', 'No I'm not' kind of exchange)?
> 
======================
I get it - motivated by the passing of former U.S. President Reagan, 
you are saying "There he goes again!" ;-))
Well, Jon, let's just leave it that what makes people uncomfortable is 
in the eye of the beholder. My "eye" has been seeing discomfort with regard 
to concentration and volition for quite a while. Of course my view could be 
jaundiced.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33702

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt.2 Appeal of Abhidhamma

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> > Let me say that your own interest in Abhidhamma, Phil, is highly 
> unusual
> > and you are in a very small (but, I believe, fortunate) 
minority. 
> And I
> > do not include myself there ;-))
> 
> Ph: It just seems so logical to me. What on earth could be of 
more 
> importance than what we experience though the sense doors, 
including 
> the mind? What else is there, really? People at another forum chide 
> me for being an uptight intellectual. There is this idea that 
> Abhidhamma is theoretical wankery. What could be less theoretical 
> than studying what is arising at this very moment? I do feel 
> fortunate for having tuned into that for whatever reason, even 
though 
> I am still at a very basic level of understanding Abhidhamma. 
> 
> I will be doing a lot more study of suttas in the years to come 
> than I am now. And getting more out of it than I would have without 
> reading that post of yours that led me to Abhidhamma. Thank you! 

You and I are kindred spirits. I also started my serious study of 
Buddhism with Abhidhamma and then followed it up with the Suttas. My 
knowledge of Abhidhamma really helps me to appreciate the Suttas.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33703

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg]Rob K pt. 3 more time for reflection?

Hello Philip,
Very good discussion. See below.
op 06-06-2004 13:26 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
> just the volume of discussion
> decreasing. Is there more time for reflection.
> 
> Rob: It doesn?ft matter really. I mean, if you?fre not
> writing you can be reading, and if you?fre not reading you can be
> reflection. And if you?fre not reflecting there?fs nama and
> rupa happening now, you know.
Nina: We cannot plan those things. You may take time off and then you may
get distracted with other things, who knows? Whatever you learn has to sink
in, and then there will be conditions for reflecting no matter where you
are. Or for awareness and understanding of sound, hardness, whatever
appears. I learnt from A. Sujin: <We can make beautiful plans, and that is
only thinking. It depends on conditions whether such plans materialize. Do
not plan anything, leave it to conditions.>
But people may have misunderstandings, we have to put her words in the right
context. Of course you can decide at what time to get up, etc. and also you
can cultivate the right conditions for all kinds of kusala. Knowing about
these conditions surely helps us to develop kusala. But we should
remember:we are not the owner of the nama and rupa that occur in our life.
Ph: Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking
> occasional breaks. What is that yonisomething and how rare
> is its arising?
N: yoniso manasikara: wise attention. When the citta is kusala there is
already wise attention. In many suttas the Buddha spoke about unwise
attention to visible object, sound etc. and wise attention. He exhorted us
to have awareness and right understanding when visible object, sound, etc.
appear through the relevant doorways. There is more often unwise attention
than wise attention, but realizing this is a beginning of the cure.
I think everyone can find opportunity for reflection, the kitchen is very
good! For you the cushion, and that is fine.
B.T.W. I like the points you brought up with my Brahma viharas. I like to
elaborate on them when I have time. Do so again, it all concerns practice,
application.We can never talk enough about that.
Nina.
	
33704

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am
Subject: Brahma viharas, 3

Brahma viharas, 3

We read in A. Sujin¹s Perfections:

<If we have developed the other perfections but our inclination to assist
others with kindness is deficient, we should find out the reason for this.
Is it because we are already pleased with our own kusala or is it because of
defilements, such as conceit, clinging to the importance of self? We may
think that it is not necessary to help someone else. Or, when we have given
assistance to someone else we may wonder what the other person will be
thinking about us. We should find out whether such thoughts are kusala or
akusala. We should instead give assistance to someone without paying
attention to what he thinks about us, no matter whether he rejoices in our
deed or whether he blames us, because in reality he cannot harm us. What he
thinks about us concerns only himself, not us. We should realize that no
matter how much kusala we have performed already, it is not yet enough. >
When we cling to the importance of self there is conceit, the citta is
rigid, not gentle, and there cannot be metta at the same time. When conceit
arises it accompanies the citta rooted in attachment. When we attach
importance to what others think about us, there is conceit. When we expect
kind words from them but they do not speak kindly, we are disappointed and
we have aversion. Then we can see that conceit conditions annoyance and
aversion. 
Through satipatthana we learn that life truly exists in one moment. When
there are conditions for metta it arises, but it cannot last. There are
bound to be many akusala cittas in between the moments of kusala cittas.
Lodewijk remarked that when he considers that he has countless akusala
cittas he becomes oppressed. I explained to him that it is pañña,
understanding, that realizes kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. At the
moment of understanding there cannot be aversion or oppression at the same
time. We cannot expect a radical change in character when we begin to
develop satipatthana, but we should be happy and grateful to the Buddha for
teaching us the way to see realities as they are. We learn that it is dukkha
to be in the cycle of birth and death, and that clinging is the cause of
dukkha. However, we should not forget that there is a Way leading to the end
of dukkha, and we can begin to develop it with courage and gladness.
Lodewijk stressed the importance of good and noble friendship, association
with the right persons. We spoke about A. Sujin and our friends in Thailand,
who give us good examples of the application of satipatthana in daily life.
It is inspiring to associate with friends who strive after the same goal,
the development of right understanding leading to the eradication of
defilements. When we are in their company, we have the assurance that we are
with true friends whom we can trust and that we cannot come to any harm.
*****
Nina
	
33705

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 1

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 1

Listening.

The development of right understanding of dhammas that appear in our life
begins with listening. During the Dhamma sessions in the Foundation building
with my English speaking friends as well as with my Thai friends there were
many opportunities for listening. Moreover, Acharn Sujin¹s lectures are
broadcasted every day and many people listen to them early in the morning
and in the evening. When we listen, we hear what is new to us and also what
we heard before but had not yet completely understood. We should carefully
consider what we hear so that it goes into our bones. Listening, considering
and studying the Dhamma is kusala kamma included in mental development,
bhåvanå. 
We read in the Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², the
Sumangalavilåsiní, about the Buddha¹s daily routine. After his breakfast the
layfollowers who had offered food would come to see him. The Buddha, with
great compassion and due consideration for their different dispositions,
would teach them Dhamma so that they would become established in the three
refuges and in síla or even attain enlightenment.
Life is short and we should not miss any opportunity to listen to the Dhamma
and carefully consider what we heard. The opportunities to hear the true
Dhamma are rare. In some lives there may be no opportunity. We read in the
³Middle Length Sayings² (II, no 81, Discourse on Ghatikåra) that at the time
of the Buddha Kassapa the potter Ghatikåra tried to persuade his friend
Jotipåla to visit the Buddha, but that Jotipåla reviled and abused the
Buddha. It is explained in ³Milinda¹s Questions² (Dilemmas V, no 6) that the
Buddha, when he was in a past life Jotipåla, was born into a family of
worshippers of Brahmå, without confidence in the Buddha Kassapa. A simile is
used of a great blazing fire that when it is in contact with water becomes
cool and black. We read that Nagasena explained to King Milinda:
³Even so, sire, (though) the brahman youth Jotipåla had wisdom and faith and
was widely renowned for his knowledge, yet when he came back to birth in a
family that was of little faith, not believing, then did he, in the manner
of his family, being blind, revile and abuse the Tathågata.²
We read in the Sutta that finally the potter Ghatikåra took hold of Jotipåla
by his hair and brought him to the Buddha. Jotipåla listened to the Buddha,
gained confidence in him and received ordination in his presence.
Acharn Sujin said, ³Listening helps to understand conditions. No matter
where we are or where we go, each moment is conditioned. Also listening,
considering and understanding are conditioned.² The Bodhisatta Jotipåla had
in many previous lives listened to former Buddhas and developed
understanding. His accumulated perfections were like a bright fire, but when
he was born in a family with worshippers of Brahma, this bright fire was
temporarily reduced to black coal. When he met the Buddha Kassapa the
development of understanding in his past lives were the right conditions for
him to gain confidence in the Dhamma.
***
Nina
	
33706

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Dear Agrios,
I try to answer, see below.
op 06-06-2004 15:08 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...:

> would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element
> (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other
> five_consciousness_elements?
N: I think you mean, why not based on the other senses? Seeing has its own
base, the eyesense, and so on for the other sense-cognitions. Mind-element
(the five-door adverting-consciousness and two types of
receiving-consciousness) and mind-consciousness-element need another base,
not the sense-bases. This is called heart-base, but you can call it by any
name. 
> 
>A: If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he
> commenting on here?
N: The Visuddhimagga was an encyclopedia of Buddhism he has written, editing
the oldest commentaries he found at the Great Monastery. He has many quotes
from the Suttanta and Abhidhamma.
> 
A: I can't see this heartbase, thats the problem you see.. and I don't know
an=
> 
> ybody 
> who does and could point it to me.
N: Right. Visible object is the only rupa that can be seen, all the others
are invisible. We cannot point at the heartbase, it is infinitesimally small
and it arises and falls away within split seconds.
It is a subtle rupa that can be realized through the mind-door by some who
have developed samatha or vipassana. We cannot say it is impossible to
realize it, it depends on conditions whether it appears.
> 
A: I understand it this way:
> An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are.
N: Eyesense is rupa, not paññatti, concept. Khandha is a name designating
realities. They arise and fall away, as is said, also in the Suttanta: past
present, future. A concept cannot arise and fall away.

A: An eye sense is rather easy
> to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's fleshy
and has
> all the four basic rupas to it.
N: Eyesense itself is the tiniest rupa you cannot point to. do not mix it
with the eye of the flesh or with nerves. Medical terms are of no help here.
Eyesense rupa is accompanied by the four great elements and five more rupas.
A: Visible rupa hits it, it register hit and contact is
> established triggering an avalanche of mental effects.
N: the eye-door process cittas begin.
A: The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me.
N: If we cannot experience it now, can we say, it is not real? Can we
experience everything that is real?
A: Is U. Narada giving any hint on why he think so?
N: his great knowledge of the Abhidhamma, the Book on the conditional
relations, the Patthana.
Buddhaghosa wrote most of the Commentaries to Suttas, to the Books of the
Abhidhamma. There are also subcommentaries of a later date , for example, by
Dhammapala. He wrote the Co to the Vis., subco or Tiika. This I am
translating in part weekly. There is no English text, except some footnotes
by the translators of the Vis.
Nina.
	
33707

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 11:27am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 032 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The first 4 cittas of 89 cittas are all somanassa cittas. Next 4 
cittas are all the same in serial number with the first 4 cittas with 
the exception of equanimous feeling or upekkha vedana.

The 5th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is

'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta'.

Upekkha here means equanimous feeling. Upekkha comprises 'upa' 
and 'ekkha'. Ekkha means 'feeling' while 'upa' means non-extreme, in 
the middle, flexible, in balance. Upekkha means balanced feeling of 
n?t pleasant and not unpleasant.

This citta can be seen in case of a child receiving things which are 
not very attractive for him but they draw his attention and cause 
greediness. This citta arise in greediness of mental impulse in 7 
successive arising of javana citta. As the object is not very 
attractive, it does not cause happiness and causes just equanimous 
feeling.

As he is just a child and not mature to know any kamma or its 
implication, there arises wrong view. So there is ditthi cetasika 
arising along with this lobha citta. He receives things and his 
greediness does not need to be prompted. So it is asankharika citta.

The 6th citta of 89 cittas is 

'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta.'

In this citta, there needs promptness. A man comes and gives things 
to one of 2 children. Only after taken, the man realises that he gave 
to the wrong child and he amends. Sorry Paul. These are not for you. 
These are for John. As soon as he hears this, John becomes greedy and 
his mental impulse runs on those things brought by that man. Things 
are not very attractive and there is just equanimous feeling. So it 
is upekkha citta. As a child without maturity, there arises ditthi or 
wrong view. SO it is ditthigata sampayutta citta. His greediness 
needs promptedness by his own will or by the speech of the man. So it 
is sasankharika citta.

Both 5th and 6th cittas can arise in adults if they have wrong view 
and their feeling at that time is equanimous feeling.

The 7th citta of 89 cittas is

'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta'.

This is the citta that may arises in case of a well learned man who 
just receives ordinary daily materials which are not of his urgent 
need or which are not of his favourite. So in this, his feeling is 
just equanimous and there is no ditthi or wrong view and his 
greediness does not need to be prompted.

The 8th citta of 89 cittas is

'upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam sasankharika citta'.

This citta is much the same with the 7th citta but with the exception 
of requirement of promptedness. A well learned man receives a packet 
which is not very attractive for him. When he opens it there comes 
out something and still unattractive for him but still it has some 
usefulness. He does not have happiness and he is just indifferent to 
this thing. So there is upekkha. There is no wrong view. As he is not 
interested in that he needs some promptedness. As things are still 
useful, he become a bit greedy and mental impulse arises as javana. 
This lobha citta is sasankharika citta.

There are 8 lobha mula cittas and they have been described to some 
extent. In any life, after patisandhi citta, there follow uncountable 
bhavanga cittas or life continuum. But when there happens that vithi 
cittas have a chance to arise early in a life, the very first vithi 
citta will be one of avajjana citta. After some moments, there follow 
7 successive javana cittas. These cittas are the very first 
kammapatha cittas in that life and they will be one of these 8 lobha 
mula cittas.

8 lobha mula cittas are

1.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta
2.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta
3.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta
4.somanassa sahagatam ditthigata vipayuttam sasankharika citta
5.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam asankharika citta
6.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata sampayuttam sasankharika citta
7.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam asankharika citta
8.upekkha sahagatam ditthigata vippayuttam sasankharika citta

By reviewing these 8 cittas, there can be seen that associated 
cetasikas have many effects on citta, which originally is to know the 
object but as somanassa or piti cetasika, ditthi cetasika, thina 
cetasika or sloth, middha cetasika or torpor, all influence on citta 
and citta has different names here as 8 lobha mula cittas.

Presence or absence of piti, lobha cittas separate into 2 groups. 
Presence or absence of ditthi, each of the groups become divided into 
ditthigata sampayutta and vippayutta groups. Again these 4 separate 
groups fall into another 2 separate categories called asankharika and 
sasankharika. So even though this is lobha citta according to 
accompanying cetasikas there are 8 separate lobha cittas in terms of 
their each character. Again there are many lobha citta countless in a 
single satta panatta and again there are many lobha citta as bahiddha 
dhamma. And bhumiwise, still there are enormous amount of lobha 
cittas which are never possible to be counted.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33708

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 1:33pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Agrios,
> I try to answer, see below.
> op 06-06-2004 15:08 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...:
> 

Hi Nina,

please allow me to take this opportunity to thank you for all your great books and
translations. I am thrilled to have opportunity to ask you questions on Dhamma.

> > would you please give me some hint on why do mind-consciousness-element
> > (mano) has to have physical base_foundation and can not be based in other
> > five_consciousness_elements?

> N: I think you mean, why not based on the other senses? Seeing has its own
> base, the eyesense, and so on for the other sense-cognitions. Mind-element
> (the five-door adverting-consciousness and two types of
> receiving-consciousness) and mind-consciousness-element need another base,
> not the sense-bases. This is called heart-base, but you can call it by any
> name. 

I know this from your books Nina. I am asking why
mind-consciousness needs rupa base. What's the reason, why is it necessary ? 
Wouldn't base of five other senses be sufficient?
Please see also Howard's question:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33668

> >A: If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly texts was he
> > commenting on here?
> N: The Visuddhimagga was an encyclopedia of Buddhism he has written, editing
> the oldest commentaries he found at the Great Monastery. He has many quotes
> from the Suttanta and Abhidhamma.

It's unknown text, but clearly written by Buddhist monk.
And is not commentary nor it is translation. 
New book has been written by him.
Right?

> A: I can't see this heartbase, thats the problem you see.. and I don't know
> anybody 
> > who does and could point it to me.

> N: Right. Visible object is the only rupa that can be seen, all the others
> are invisible. We cannot point at the heartbase, it is infinitesimally small
> and it arises and falls away within split seconds.

I did corrected my question in the following post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33663

> It is a subtle rupa that can be realized through the mind-door by some who
> have developed samatha or vipassana. We cannot say it is impossible to
> realize it, it depends on conditions whether it appears.

One can think about it, I know that.
The problem is, I can't realize it and all this alleged rupas just plainly do not
present themselves at all. Outside of thinking, there is plain and quiet absence of
them. Absence of form whatsoever.

This is my only reason to follow this idea of their supposed existence. 
Whole theory of them, sounds like really bad chemistry, like some speculation 
which never, never can be realized as it is just plain concept of archaic origins.

> A: I understand it this way:
> > An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are.

> N: Eyesense is rupa, not pannatti, concept. Khandha is a name designating
> realities. They arise and fall away, as is said, also in the Suttanta: past
> present, future. A concept cannot arise and fall away.

> A: An eye sense is rather easy
> > to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's fleshy
> and has
> > all the four basic rupas to it.

> N: Eyesense itself is the tiniest rupa you cannot point to. do not mix it
> with the eye of the flesh or with nerves. Medical terms are of no help here.
> Eyesense rupa is accompanied by the four great elements and five more rupas.

And this is something one can realize, or has to learn how to think about it?
Are there actual monks who has realized this?

> A: Visible rupa hits it, it register hit and contact is
> > established triggering an avalanche of mental effects.

> N: the eye-door process cittas begin.

> A: The heart base plainly do not exist or nobody can point it to me.

> N: If we cannot experience it now, can we say, it is not real? Can we
> experience everything that is real?

I had to ask. If somebody realized rupa, I will try to meet him and ask him
to help me. But I've never meet someone like this. I am trying to see if Rob, Sarah
or you would help me.


> Nina.

Metta,
Agrios
	
33709

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 3 Does break from DSG give more time for reflectio

Dear Sarah,
You have such a beneficial way of explaining things, I feel like
quoting the whole post, but I won't, for space's sake. 

The passage on Right Speech, "pleasant..affectionate.." etc. makes me
think twice about my rather intense tone in my last [long] post on
meditation and beneficial "practice." Just to notice that and
register it, not to dwell on it...

Taken away from the meditation debate, and in the context of planning
to "post or not to post" and how conditions will ultimately dictate
what will take place, gives a good simple example for contemplation. 
Thanks for that, as well as the very interesting quotes from K. Sujin.

I just happened to see the title of this post and was attracted to it,
and it turned out to be a very beneficial one. There go those sneaky
arising conditions again! 

Much appreciated.

Best,
Robert Ep.

======================

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Hi Phil & All,
> 
> --- Philip <plnao@j...> wrote: > 
> > Does anyone else have thoughts on the potential value of taking 
> > occasional breaks from discussion when reflecting on suttas or other 
> > teachings? 
> ....
> S: I?d say no rule at all, otherwise it?s like we?re trying to plan a
> course of action again, rather than understanding conditions and anatta.
> As Rob said, there can be awareness and understanding anytime. As you?ve
> found before, we may plan to take a break and end up posting or vice
> versa. I was intending to write on Friday, but my old arm problem was
> playing up and I couldn?t. Anything can happen by conditions and in the
> end there are just rapidly changing namas and rupas.
> 
> A friend mentioned off-list that perhaps it?s better not to write or
speak
> unless one can be sure all the conditions of good speech are present
-- so
> I'd like to include one or two comments on this here as well -- i.e 
> 
> ?It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken
> affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of
> good-will.? AN V.198
> ****
	
33710

From: Robert Epstein <epsteinrob@Y...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 2:17pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau"
<kenhowardau@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Rob Ep,
> 
> Thank you for your kind words, I too am enjoying our conversation 
> and I will never tire of the topic ? `formal practice.' (Groans all 
> round.) :-)

Dear Ken,
I appreciate your clearly written and responsive post. I will also
give a more detailed response hopefully in the near future [conditions
allowing. : ) ] 

In the meantime, I have one question which I hope has an easy answer:
Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in
accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and
satipatthana only?

To me this is a crucial pivot in our discussion. You dismiss formal
meditation as qualifying as such a practice based on your contention
that it is not mentioned as being a right practice in the body of the
Dhamma. I do not agree with this, since my interpretation of the
satipatthana sutta leads me to believe that it is clearly defined as a
correct practice, but I would like to see any specific citations you
have for your side of the argument. 

Is there a place in the words of the Buddha himself, as expressed int
he body of Sutta, where he expressly states that "practice in
accordance with the Dhamma" = "satipatthana" and that pragmatic
practices that lead to understanding are excluded? i would very much
like to see such a passage to read it for myself.

Best,
Robert Ep.

================================
	
33711

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Brahma viharas, no 2

Hello Nina, and all

N: > We read in the ³Atthasålin?E² about the four brahmavihåras 
((Book I, Part V,
> Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) :
> ³...love (mett?E has the characteristic of being a procedure of 
modes of
> beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the 
manifestation or
> effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the 
lovableness
> of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; 
its
> failure is the production of lust.

Ph: Re the "proximate cause" - this is something I've wanted to 
ask about. It is the factor that most directly conditions the 
following factor? There is metta, and then (almost) immediately 
afterwards there is wisdom that sees the lovableness? "Proximate" 
meaning very close in the chain of cittas? And what is the term for 
more removed factors. "Aproximate?" "Distant?"

"Lovableness" is a word I find myself using a lot these days. 
Recently I found a sutta that describes people like dogs tied to a 
post, going from one factor to the next, in a kind of subjugated 
state. (I forget the details - I know it comes up in my talk with Rob 
K, so I'll remember then.) I found this sutta reminded me of the 
friendly feeling I have for people, including myself. We have these 
noble self-images, or less noble ones, and then they are swept away 
as conditions move us about. When people are unkind, it is not their 
fault. When people are kind, they are not responsible. Seeing people 
as dogs tethered to a pole might not seem very charitable, but I 
include myself in there and it gives me a feeling of friendliness 
rather than contempt or anything like that.
(snip)

N:> Htoo writes: <Metta is a pure thing and we do not need to expect 
friendship
> from those whom we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon 
as
> that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and 
attachment
> do not stay together.>

Ph: But metta can arise in a situation where attachment has arisen, 
right? I mean, when we see through to that attachment, a fairly 
basic form of right understanding can replace it with metta. The 
person we are with today will not be here tomorrow. That will be a 
different person, in the absolute sense, even subtly so, changed from 
today by conditions. This person is a shifting aggregate of mental 
and physical factors. Unwise to become attached, though we do and 
will. When I lay with Naomi in my arms, and we are feeling very 
tender towards each other, there is always these days the awareness 
not only that we will grow old and die, but also that I may be 
wanting to hurl a dish across the kitchen because of her within 
hours! (More about that later in the talk with Rob K) Does that take 
away the tenderness? No, it purifies it in some way. 

N: >> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity,
> tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very 
necessary for
> all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, 
namely,
> attachment and aversion. 

Ph: I am always thinking about equanimity, upekkha. It seems to me 
that it is the starting point of true practice of Brahma-viharas, 
based in whatever degree of understanding of the three 
characteristics of annata, annica and dukkha that we have. And it 
surprises me that it is always listed fourth in the Brahma-viharas. 
Perhaps it is listed last because in jhanas it is achieved at a 
higher/rarer jhana. However, it seems to me that it is where we 
should start.
I remember very soon after I came to DSG I was talking about my 
temper outbursts when I was cycling, and I think I said that I sensed 
upekkha as a kind of protection, as though it were a force field that 
I developped on the cushion and took with me out into the world. As 
though I became untouchable by irritation with other people, because 
of upekkha I had developed. Sarah questioned this, and said 
something about right understanding being the key. And soon after 
that I came to see that right understanding - to the degree that one 
is capable - of the three characterstics are essential to 
understanding Brahma-viharas. That was a very helpful comment from 
Sarah, though I hope I'm not mis-paraphrasing her as I did with Jon! 

Metta,
Phil
	
33712

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 6:27pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Agrios,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" 
<agriosinski@y...> wrote:
> I know this from your books Nina. I am asking why
> mind-consciousness needs rupa base. What's the reason, why is it 
necessary ? 
> Wouldn't base of five other senses be sufficient?

=====

Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of Abhidhamma 
lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section 
titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted from the 
commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to the 
Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my clarifications.

US: Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu, when they arise in the Kama-
sphere and Rupa-sphere, must depend on rupa (matter), just as cakkhu-
vinnana and others depend on eye-sensitivity and others.

RM: Mano-dhatu (mind-element) include the five-door-adverting citta 
and the two receiving cittas (one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). 
Manovinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness element) includes the remaining 
76 cittas (not including the ten sense-consciousness cittas or the 
three mano-dhatu cittas). See p146 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive 
Manual of Abhidhamma". U Silanda's use of the term "-sphere" is 
incorrect; it should be "-world" or "-plane". Spheres (vacara) and 
worlds / planes (loka) are related but distinct. See p30 of Bhikkhu 
Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma". In this context, it is 
loka that is meant, not sphere. It is the nature of the loka that all 
cittas arising require a rupa as a base. It is the nature of the 
arupa-loka (immaterial plane) that cittas do not require a rupa as a 
base.

US: That rupa [upon which Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu depend] 
cannot be the four Mahabhutas because they are depended upon by Upada 
rupas. Therefore, that rupa must be an Upada rupa.

RM: The Mahabhuta rupas are the four great elements of solidity, 
cohesion, heat and motion (fuguratively referred to as earth, water, 
fire and wind). Each of the four Great Elements has the other three 
as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together and 
condition one another. The remaining 24 rupas are called derived 
(upada) rupas because they depend upon the four great elements. The 
four elements arise in all rupa, even inanimate matter found outside 
the body. Since mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu do not arise outside 
the body, they must depend upon a derived rupa.

US: Among the Upada rupas, they cannot depend upon cakkhu, etc. 
because they (cakkhu, etc.) are depended on by cakkhu-vinnana, etc.; 
neither can they depend on [visible object], [sound] and so on 
because they (visible object, sound and so on) can be found 
externally too.

RM: U Silananda is eliminating potential candidates by noting that 
the sense-organs (pasada rupas) are inappropriate foundations as they 
already have their own specific type of consciousness to support. 
Visible object, sound, odour and flavour can be eliminated as they 
can arise external to the body.

US: They cannot depend on [life faculty] because it has the specific 
function of protecting the conascent rupas; they cannot depend on the 
two qualities of sex either, because these dhatus [Mano-dhatu and 
manovinnana-dhatu] arise also in those [groupings of rupas] who have 
no sex qualities. They do not depend on [nutrition] for the same 
reason that it is found externally too.

US: It should therefore, be understood that there must be some other 
rupa upon which these dhatus depend and that rupa must be a dependent 
one itself and not a Mahabhuta. And that dependent one which is the 
seat of these dhatus is none other than the Hadaya-vatthu.

US: The reason why it is not mentioned in the Dhammasangani, where 
all rupas are mentioned, is that if it were mentioned there, the 
uniformity of presentation of the Vatthu-duka and Arammana-duka, so 
important for the understnding of the doctrine and the realization of 
truth by litteners, would be broken and thus defeat the very purpose 
of the doctrine - the realization of truth by listeners.

RM: This point is expanded upon by Shwe Zan Aung in his PTS 
translation of the Abhidhammatthasanga on page 277: "The omission of 
hadayavatthu in the Dhammasangani is very significant to us 
Buddhists... we hold that the omission is not accidental. In view of 
the popular idea - i.e. of the cardiac theory of the seat of mental 
activity - prevailing in his time, the Buddha preferred to be silent 
on the point. He did not accept the theory, but if he had expounded 
his own theory, it would not have been acceptable to his hearers. But 
he reserved the question of the basis of consciousness for the 
philosophic teaching handed down in the Patthana. Even here, he was 
very careful not to commit himself to the cardiac theory, even by way 
of concession to the popular view. The Patthana doctrine is as 
follows... 'the eye is related to sight and its concommitant states 
by way of base' and so on for the other sense organs. But when he 
comes to mind (mano) the style is altered... 'that material thing on 
the basis of which apprehension and comprehension take place - that 
thing is related to both of them as well as to their concommitants by 
way of the relation of base.' It was quite easy here for the founder 
of Abhidhamma doctrine to have used the word 'heart' instead of 'that 
material thing' had be believed that heart was related to mind as its 
physical base. The commentators had to give a name to this and they 
wrote 'heart' in accordance with the popular theory. And they 
doubtless believed that they had commented accurately in so doing, 
since the Buddha himself had used 'hadaya' in his Discourses to 
express thought or mind. But to use the word thus for edifying 
exposition is very different from using the same in philosophical 
language to express 'basis of thought'.

=====
>
> > >A: If Acariya Buddhaghosa was a commentator, which exactly 
texts was he
> > > commenting on here?
> > N: The Visuddhimagga was an encyclopedia of Buddhism he has 
written, editing
> > the oldest commentaries he found at the Great Monastery. He has 
many quotes
> > from the Suttanta and Abhidhamma.
> 
> It's unknown text, but clearly written by Buddhist monk.
> And is not commentary nor it is translation. 
> New book has been written by him.
> Right?

=====

With the recent discussion of Buddhaghosa, I pulled from my bookcase 
a hard-cover book that I bought a few months back, but never had the 
time to read. It is "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" by Bimala 
Charan Law, with a foreward by Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids. It is not 
very long (175 pages) because not much is known of Buddhaghosa 
himself (there are a few facts in the Mahavamsa, Chronicles of 
Ceylon, but the Buddhaghosuppatti was written about 800 years later 
and therefore is full of legends rather than accurate facts).

According to this book, Buddhaghosa was born as a brahmin in a 
village close to the great bodhi-tree under which the Buddha attained 
enlightenment. His father was the king's tutor and also taught 
Buddhaghosa at the same time. Buddhaghosa was an expert in the Vedas 
(his later works demonstrate this expertise) and defeated everyone in 
debates. Along came a great Buddhist monk (Revata) who was 
Buddhaghosa's equal in understanding of the Vedas. After impressing 
Buddhaghosa with his knowledge of the Vedas, Revata said, "I have 
shown to you that I understand your philosophy. Now I will ask you 
one question to see if you can answer" Revata asked a question which 
stumped Buddhaghosa. Revata then provided the answer based on the 
Abhidhamma (it was taken from the cittayamaka regarding kusala, 
akusala and functional cittas). Buddhaghosa realized that the 
Abhidhamma was superior to the Vedas and converted to Buddhism. 
Revata told Buddhaghosa to go to Ceylon to translate the accumulated 
commentaries collected over the centuries, many of them dating back 
to the time of the Buddha based on conversations recorded between 
monks who were directly associated with the Buddha. Buddhaghosa was 
to translate these commentaries from Sinhalese into Magadhi (Pali). 
Buddhaghosa arrived at the main temple while a discussion was ensuing 
regarding some knotty point in the dhamma. The Sangharaja went to 
their rooms to think over the point and while they were gone, 
Buddhaghosa wrote the answer on a blackboard (shades of the 
film "Good Will Hunting"). The Sangharaja came back and were amazed. 
To prove that he was worthy of compiling the commentaries, the 
Sangharaja asked Buddhaghosa to write an essay on the following 
stanza uttered by the Buddha in reference to the three Pitakas, "Who 
is that person who being wise and established in the precepts, and 
having cultured his thoughts and wisdom, being ardent and skilful, 
can unravel this knot?" In reply, that afternoon, Buddhaghosa wrote 
the Visuddhimagga. After writing the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa took 
a nap. While he was napping, Sakka the king of the gods, stole the 
book. Buddhaghosa awoke, realized that the book was missing and wrote 
it out again. Sakka stole the book a second time so Buddhaghosa had 
to write out the Visuddhimagga a third time. In translation, my 
Visuddhimagga runs to 875 pages. To think that he wrote it out three 
times in one afternoon and one night seems far fetched (but this is 
the stuff that legends are made of). After Buddhaghosa had written 
out the book for a third time, Sakka took pity and gave back the two 
earlier versions. Buddhaghosa presented all three copies to the 
Sangharaja who were amazed that all three copies were absolutely 
identical. Needless to say, Buddhaghosa got the job to compile the 
commentaries. The commentaries compiled by Buddhaghosa cover all 
three of the Pitaka, Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. They are 
remarkably consistent and mutually supportive; for example, portions 
of the Visuddhimagga appear in the Atthasalini, the commentary to the 
first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani). In the 
commentaries, Buddhaghosa mentioned very few primary sources; 
exceptions being Milindapana and Upatissa's Vimuttimaggga (Path to 
Freedom). When Buddhaghosa inserted his own opinions, he took care to 
demarcate them as such (as in his discussion on carita). According to 
legend, when Buddhaghosa died, he was reborn in Tusita heaven (i.e. 
he was not an Arahant).

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33713

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 7:00pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hello RobM, and all,

You may be interested in some additional information contained in 
this excerpt from a post by RobK on Triplegem:

Questioner: "> If the Venerable Buddhagosa was an arahat then why 
did he at the
>end of the Visuddhi Magga make a sincere wish to be reborn at the 
time of
>the final fading away of the Buddha sassana?
===================================================
RobK: That paragraph at the end of the Visuddimagga is only in the
Singhalese edition - not the Thai or Burmese. It was probably added
by a scribe who undertook the long task of copying it onto palm-leaf.
An estimation of Buddhaghosa is given in the previous
paragraph: "the elder who is adorned with faith, wisdom and
energy..an ornament in the lineage of the elders who dwell in the
Great monastery and who are shining lights in the lineage of elders
with unblemished enlightenment in the superhuman states that are
embellished with the special qualities of the six kinds of direct
knowledgeand the categories of discrimination, [I.e. arahats]who has
abundant purified wit, who bears the name Buddhaghosa.""

There was a small booklet published in Burma about 500 years ago
(One thousand years after Buddhaghosa) that suggested he was not an
arahant and was born in Tavitimsa deva world, but this is a late
work and has several inaccuracies."
=================
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/message/5177

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> 
> >>>snipped for brevity<<<
> With the recent discussion of Buddhaghosa, I pulled from my 
bookcase 
> a hard-cover book that I bought a few months back, but never had 
the 
> time to read. It is "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" by Bimala 
> Charan Law, with a foreward by Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids. It is not 
> very long (175 pages) because not much is known of Buddhaghosa 
> himself (there are a few facts in the Mahavamsa, Chronicles of 
> Ceylon, but the Buddhaghosuppatti was written about 800 years 
later 
> and therefore is full of legends rather than accurate facts).
> 
> According to this book, Buddhaghosa was born as a brahmin in a 
> village close to the great bodhi-tree under which the Buddha 
attained 
> enlightenment. His father was the king's tutor and also taught 
> Buddhaghosa at the same time. Buddhaghosa was an expert in the 
Vedas 
> (his later works demonstrate this expertise) and defeated everyone 
in 
> debates. Along came a great Buddhist monk (Revata) who was 
> Buddhaghosa's equal in understanding of the Vedas. After 
impressing 
> Buddhaghosa with his knowledge of the Vedas, Revata said, "I have 
> shown to you that I understand your philosophy. Now I will ask you 
> one question to see if you can answer" Revata asked a question 
which 
> stumped Buddhaghosa. Revata then provided the answer based on the 
> Abhidhamma (it was taken from the cittayamaka regarding kusala, 
> akusala and functional cittas). Buddhaghosa realized that the 
> Abhidhamma was superior to the Vedas and converted to Buddhism. 
> Revata told Buddhaghosa to go to Ceylon to translate the 
accumulated 
> commentaries collected over the centuries, many of them dating 
back 
> to the time of the Buddha based on conversations recorded between 
> monks who were directly associated with the Buddha. Buddhaghosa 
was 
> to translate these commentaries from Sinhalese into Magadhi 
(Pali). 
> Buddhaghosa arrived at the main temple while a discussion was 
ensuing 
> regarding some knotty point in the dhamma. The Sangharaja went to 
> their rooms to think over the point and while they were gone, 
> Buddhaghosa wrote the answer on a blackboard (shades of the 
> film "Good Will Hunting"). The Sangharaja came back and were 
amazed. 
> To prove that he was worthy of compiling the commentaries, the 
> Sangharaja asked Buddhaghosa to write an essay on the following 
> stanza uttered by the Buddha in reference to the three 
Pitakas, "Who 
> is that person who being wise and established in the precepts, and 
> having cultured his thoughts and wisdom, being ardent and skilful, 
> can unravel this knot?" In reply, that afternoon, Buddhaghosa 
wrote 
> the Visuddhimagga. After writing the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa 
took 
> a nap. While he was napping, Sakka the king of the gods, stole the 
> book. Buddhaghosa awoke, realized that the book was missing and 
wrote 
> it out again. Sakka stole the book a second time so Buddhaghosa 
had 
> to write out the Visuddhimagga a third time. In translation, my 
> Visuddhimagga runs to 875 pages. To think that he wrote it out 
three 
> times in one afternoon and one night seems far fetched (but this 
is 
> the stuff that legends are made of). After Buddhaghosa had written 
> out the book for a third time, Sakka took pity and gave back the 
two 
> earlier versions. Buddhaghosa presented all three copies to the 
> Sangharaja who were amazed that all three copies were absolutely 
> identical. Needless to say, Buddhaghosa got the job to compile the 
> commentaries. The commentaries compiled by Buddhaghosa cover all 
> three of the Pitaka, Suttas, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. They are 
> remarkably consistent and mutually supportive; for example, 
portions 
> of the Visuddhimagga appear in the Atthasalini, the commentary to 
the 
> first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani). In the 
> commentaries, Buddhaghosa mentioned very few primary sources; 
> exceptions being Milindapana and Upatissa's Vimuttimaggga (Path to 
> Freedom). When Buddhaghosa inserted his own opinions, he took care 
to 
> demarcate them as such (as in his discussion on carita). According 
to 
> legend, when Buddhaghosa died, he was reborn in Tusita heaven 
(i.e. 
> he was not an Arahant).
> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)
	
33714

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Rob M,
op 07-06-2004 15:08 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> What is not logical and reasonable (at least to me) is that this rupa
> is associated with the physical heart. At the time of the patisandhi
> citta there is no physical heart. I still feel more comfortable
> sticking with the wording of the Patthana, "that matter in dependence
> on which the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur"
> rather than introducing the physical heart into the discussion.
N: I agree with the Patthana. We do not have to think of the heart itself,
it is said the base is in the blood near the heart, or somewhere near the
heart. Exact location not important. This solves the query about rebirth:
three decads: heartbase, bodysense, sex. There is no heart yet, no bodysense
yet, they have to develop. But, there are those tiny, tiny rupas which have
these names. Kamma produced them from the first moment of life on. Until it
is time to die. 
Nina.
	
33715

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 9:15pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Brahma viharas

Hi Steve,
op 07-06-2004 10:33 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...:
> Nina wrote:
>> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity,
>> tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very
> necessary for
>> all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes,
> namely,
>> attachment and aversion.

> 
> Is every arising of kusala citta, with accompanying cetasika
> tatramajjhattata, also a moment of developing the perfection upekkha
> and at the same time a dwelling in the Brahma-Vihara Upekkha?
N: No. Different aspects. The Brahma-Vihara Upekkha is the cetasika
tatramajjhattata, but it is directed towards living beings. You see that you
cannot do anything further for them, but that they have to receive the
result of kamma. That helps not to have aversion about their plight.
I shall say more about this subject.
Nina.
	
33716

From: connie <nichicon@h...> 
Date: Mon Jun 7, 2004 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa

Dear Agrios, RobM and Nina,

As to eye sense, we can read and read that 'the physical eye does not
see' but something that made that clearer to me was a show the other
night where a child who was born without ears couldn't hear anything of
the outside world (but only himself they said) until he was fitted with
a special kind of hearing aid that set up vibrations in the bones of his
head. He still didn't have normal physical ears, but the way I
understood it, he could hear when he wore the device because the the
hearing rupa/ear(door) could arise when there was contact with the
sound(waves) from the bones.

I'm afraid that doesn't help me understand the heart-base as having any
set 'home', though.

peace,
connie


====
> An Eye is a concept the same way khandas are.
N: Eyesense is rupa, not paññatti, concept. Khandha is a name
designating
realities. They arise and fall away, as is said, also in the Suttanta:
past
present, future. A concept cannot arise and fall away.

A: An eye sense is rather easy
> to spot it is placed in the eyeball as a sensitive nervous cell. It's
fleshy
and has
> all the four basic rupas to it.
N: Eyesense itself is the tiniest rupa you cannot point to. do not mix
it
with the eye of the flesh or with nerves. Medical terms are of no help
here.
Eyesense rupa is accompanied by the four great elements and five more
rupas.
	
33717

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:12am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi Howard,

Butting in here...

--- upasaka@a... wrote: 
>My "eye" has been seeing discomfort with
> regard 
> to concentration and volition for quite a while. Of course my view could
> be 
> jaundiced.
....
S: Certainly my ‘eye’ hasn’t seen any ‘discomfort’ (let alone any ‘scare
the bejesus’ on account of these factors or comments by you or others on
them. Of course, I may have been missing something (!!), but speaking for
this household (I’d better not speak for the list;-)), I’d say your view
is pretty jaundiced here;-).

Seriously, some of the best discussions on DSG have been with you on these
very ‘phenomena’ and also on effort, concepts and realities and many other
related topics. So please don’t rest until satisfied. You have our deepest
respect in this regard and I do know others feel the same. I know Nina
also appreciates it a lot when you add comments on the Vism or other
threads.

I’m sure you also often want to say ‘There he/she goes again!’ when we
speak too;-).

Metta,

Sarah
=======


	
33718

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 2:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 )

Dear Htoo,

Like last time,i’m going to make cryptic comments on a number of your
great posts here. You’re a very prolific writer, so I apologise in advance
for just jumbling a few random comments together here.

First, I think it’s really helpful to work through all the cittas as you
are doing.
--- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: > 
> Lobha cittas are cittas that arise most of the time. People are 
> filled with moha cittas nearly all the time with a few exception. As 
> moha cittas are heard to see, let us see dosa cittas and lobha 
> cittas. Dosa cittas can easily be recognised in our own mind. So do 
> lobha cittas.
....
S: I’m not sure we can say this. As you say, they are arising most the
time. Whilst the grosser forms may easily be recognised, what about the
very common subtler forms arising even now as we speak?
....
> 
> We are most of the time in lobha cittas or otherwise in dosa cittas 
> if we are not specifically practising dhamma in some way. 
....
S: I’m not quite sure what this last sentence means. cittas are so fast,
that even now while we’re discussing dhamma, there are bound to be moments
of kusala and akusala. It always comes back to the citta, I think.
... 
<.....>
> In our daily life, when we are heavily attached to something and we 
> feel happy then we are in lobha cittas associated with joy or piti 
> and this is called samanassa as explained in the previous post. 
....
S: I’m not sure there has to be ‘heavily attached’ for somanassa to arise
with the citta? Again, I think it can be quite subtle, like now when we
look at the computer screen there can be a little lobha and a little
pleasant feeling....
...
>This 
> first lobha citta is associated with ditthi or wrong view. This can 
> happen in all ordinary people or beings.
> 
> If someone does not believe kamma and its implication then that lobha 
> citta is said to be associated with ditthi cetasika. 
....
S: Perhaps we should make it clear that when there is no view, such as
looking at the computer screen without any thought either way about kamma
or the practice, then there is no wrong view. Only when there is the wrong
view arising, is it this type of citta you’re describing.
....
<...>
> When a young child is having a sweet food, he or she feels happy 
> eating that food. He is happy eating that food, so there is 
> somanassa. He will not know kamma and its implication and there will 
> be ditthi associated with that citta. 
...
S: I would say this is just an example of lobha with somanassa, but no
ditthi at that moment because there is no (wrong)thought about the path or
way or kamma. Ignorance, yes.
....
<...>
> As 
> soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. 

> That kamma may give rise to patisandhi cittas. 
....
S: Like Nina suggested, I think we have to be careful to distinguish
between kilesa (defilements) arising and accumulating and kamma-patha,
courses of action likely to bring results. Not all lobha cittas are
kamma-patha.
In (026) you also wrote that ‘kusala cittas and akusala cittas are cittas
that have kamma-producing power and they are called kammapatha cittas. I
think we need to restrict this term to the 10 wholesome and unwholesome
courses of action. (See Nyantiloka dict under kamma-patha).In (032) you
also wrote that the first javana cittas in life are ‘the very first
kammapatha cittas in that life’, but again, I’m not sure we can say.
.....
In the same message, you wrote:
‘With the exception of 2 cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and
manodvaravajjana citta, all kiriya cittas arise in arahats.’ Why these
exceptions??
....
S: In (032), again I’d like to question a comment on the citta with wrong
view in the child who does not know about kamma when lobha arises. I’d
say, it depends. Just because there is no knowledge of the dhamma doesn’t
mean there is always ditthi arising with lobha. What do you think? When
there is upekkha with lobha, may be better to translate it as ‘indifferent
feeling’ rather than ‘equanimous feeling’ so as not to confuse it with the
wholesome factor of equanimity (tatramajjhattata), but this is a minor
comment;-).

I have a couple of comments I might add on your other series. I look
forward to your feedback as usual, Htoo. I learn a lot from your series
and your posts help me question my limited understanding of these details.
Anumodana and I’m glad conditions encouraged you to keep posting;-).

Metta,

Sarah
======


	
33719

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 2:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 )

Dear Htoo,

--- Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: 
>Some of members may have
> been on the Path that is Noble Eightfold Path while others are just
> approaching.
...
S: To be honest, I’m not sure what this means. As I understand, the
Eightfold (or rather Fivefold usually) Path refers to the mental factors
you elaborate which arise together with moments of satipatthana. the Noble
Eightfold Path factors only arise with the lokuttara cittas which have
nibbana as object. Are we on the same path here??
....
<...>
> Right view in a single moment is the act of pannindriya cetasika or
> panna or wisdom that associated with citta while viewing things. What is
> the right view? It looks at and understands that there are sufferings
> and knows what are suffering. If sufferings are not understood, then
> there is no right view.
...
S: I agree with this, except perhaps we should stress that it has to
develop. As you said earlier ‘right view to start with is easy to say’.
Before there can be any real understanding of dukkha, I think namas and
rupas have to be understood clearly. Do you agree?
....
<...> 
> And right view knows that there is a unique and single Path leading to
> cessation of all sufferings. When the existence of this single Path is
> not understood, there will not be right view. The belief that takes a
> path other than Noble Eightfold Path can lead to cessation of sufferings
> is not a right view.
...
S: Excellent!
....
> 
> We have passed on this several times and we now have the right view.
> Having right view leads us to right thinking or right resolve. As our
> view is right, all thoughts associated with right view will become right
> thought.
...
S: Perhaps we should stress that right thought (sammaa sankappa)always
arises with right view, so it’s not a matter of one first and then
another. Also, I think we need to stress that this is nothing to do with
thinking and thoughts as we are used to these terms. It is vitakka
cetasika (which accompanies most cittas) and directs (in this case
‘rightly’ the citta onto the object which right view understands. It leads
the citta and without it, the other factors such as right view couldn’t
perform their functions. 

I realise you’re trying to keep this series fairly straight forward and
I’m not suggesting it should be so complicated as I may be making it;-).

In (04) you go onto say that having developed right thoughts ‘our actions
will become right actions’. Again, I’d add similar comments with regard to
the virati (abstaining) cetasikas of right speech, action and livelihood,
one of which may arise with the mundane cittas naturally when there is
right view arising.

So I also have a question mark about the last para in (04) about waking
up, having right thoughts which ‘will dictate all our actions though out
the day and night until we go into deep sleep’, because I’m not sure it
squares with what you are teaching from an Abhidhamma understanding about
rapidly changing cittas and moments.

Please accept any comments I make as a token of my respect for all your
writing and sharing Htoo. I look forward to any further discussion on
these or other points.

Metta,

Sarah
p.s You’ve asked me before to mention when there are posts addressed to
you, as others have too. I’m sorry, I usually forget and of course would
like to encourage you to read all posts and answer any questions or add
comments on other threads too if you’re inclined;-)
==================


	
33720

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 3:07am
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Rob Ep,

I am the wrong person to ask for references. One day, when I have 
organised my computer, they will be at my fingertips. But I have 
been talking about that day for years. :-)

----------------------
R: > . . . I have one question which I hope has an easy answer:
Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in
accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and
satipatthana only? >
---------------------------

I like to think that the whole of the Buddha's teaching can 
be `defined as satipatthana and satipatthana only.' 

Even, for example, where he teaches the three factors that condition 
satipatthana, it is satipatthana itself that is being taught. I am 
thinking of a sutta (no reference of course, but Christine has 
quoted it once or twice) in which a group of merchants ask the 
Buddha how they can organise their lives in a way that will lead to 
progress on the Path. The Buddha tells them their attitude should 
be; "As to the teaching of the Tathagata -- profound, deep in 
meaning, concerned with anatta -- from time to time will spend our 
days learning it."

At first glance, this sutta is saying, "once the required 
intellectual understanding has been established, satipatthana can 
arise at any time – for example, while a merchant is conducting his 
daily business."

But at an even deeper level, the sutta provides insight, here and 
now, into conditioned reality: Putting aside concepts of living 
beings carrying out conventional activities at some time in the 
future, we can see how the present moment is conditioned. If the 
present moment is one of satipatthana, then it was conditioned by at 
least three of the four factors for enlightenment (association with 
the wise, hearing the Dhamma, considering the Dhamma). If the 
present moment is not satipatthana, then it was conditioned by 
something other than those factors.

-------------------------
R: > To me this is a crucial pivot in our discussion. You dismiss 
formal meditation as qualifying as such a practice based on your 
contention that it is not mentioned as being a right practice in the 
body of the Dhamma. >
-----------------------------

In the first place, it is not mentioned, in the second place it is 
not necessarily implied, and, in the third place, it is inconsistent 
with the Tipitaka as a whole.

--------------------------
R: > I do not agree with this, since my interpretation of the
satipatthana sutta leads me to believe that it is clearly defined as 
a correct practice, but I would like to see any specific citations 
you have for your side of the argument. 
------------------------------

Assuming, for now, that I can't find any, let's look at the specific 
citations on your side. Do they include the Satipatthana-
sutta's, "a monk, when he is walking, knows that he is walking?"

The commentaries hasten to remind us that this level of knowing 
(which we share with dogs and jackals) is not satipatthana. 

Are there other citations? It would be a pity to base your practice 
on just one line from the entire Tipitaka.

--------------------
R: > i would very much like to see such a passage to read it for 
myself.
---------------------

In the meantime, you have work to be doing: 
------------
> "I will also give a more detailed response hopefully in the near 
future [conditions allowing. : ) ] >
-------------------

:-) but there is no hurry, and I have quite a few responses to catch 
up on as well.

Kind regards,
Ken H
	
33721

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 3:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi, Howard,

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah -
> 
> What I will add below does not add anything new that is of much 
> substance; it is more in the form of jousting! ;-) 
...
S: Anytime;-)Do I need any special equipment?
...
> Howard:
> Clinging to rocks and persons is overcome by realizing that such 
> "things" are, in fact, never observed, but only mentally constructed.
> (The same is 
> true for alleged rupas that are different from sense objects, but are
> claimed 
> to underlie sense objects.)
...
S: Ok, good point. There’s still clinging, even when there’s no wrong view
too.
...
> Howard:
> Unless one is extraordinarily adept spiritually, hearing about
> what is 
> actually observed is necessary. 
...
S: Necessary for all but a Buddha in that life.
...
>But it is not sufficient. The training
> of the 
> mind to see what really arises is necessary as well.
...
S: No disagreement. Pariyatti->Patipatti->Pativedha
...
> Howard:
> How do you know there are kalapas? Have you ever encountered one,
> or 
> do you just believe? If only believed, well, I think trees are prettier
> to 
> believe in! ;-)
....
S: Good Qu! All I can say is that with more understanding of the
teachings, there is more confidence in what is read in the Tipitaka, even
those parts not directly realized. A sotapanna has full confidence, no
doubt in the Triple Gem. It doesn’t mean that all realities taught by the
Buddha (and key disciples [and ancient commentators])have been experience.
Even for arahants, details only known by the Buddha’s omniscience, such as
about various world systems or intricacies of conditions can only ever be
taken on faith. But no doubt. 

In my case, I used to just leave aside (well, I still do)large chunks of
the teachings that are too hard for me to comprehend on any level and
which it wouldn’t be useful to get bogged down in for now. Slowly, a few
little windows open, however, and I find aspects leading to helpful
reflection which would have just led to confusion before. I’ve never set a
rule or sat down to learn any lists or memorize terms or anything like
that.
...

> > S: In terms of experience, yes, I agree. In terms of realities taught
> by
> > the Buddha, then no. If none of us were on the earth, it wouldn’t
> mean
> > there were no rupas arising and falling. It would mean there was no
> > experience of them by cittas.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
> That is a presumption, and it is one that is in principle
> untestable.
> -------------------------------------------------
...
S: Again, I just rely on the teachings which make good sense. All kinds of
details can only be directly known by a Buddha and shared with us to show
that all realities are conditioned and anatta.
...
> Howard:
> But there is no basis for distinguishing whether belief in the 
> existence of unobservable phenomena is right or wrong. This is a matter
> of untestable 
> faith - now you bring in "religion". ;-)
> ---------------------------------------------------
....
S: OK;-). I also smile because what appealed to me most when I came across
the Dhamma was the clear message that it could all be tested out and
anything else was unimportant. This was so appealing (and still is),
having discarded other religions or philosphies which relied on faith.
It’s still the essence - by understanding more directly about namas and
rupas, gradually there will be more understanding about conditions and
also the arising of dhammas in combinations or groups. Like a jigsaw
puzzle where the pieces can only fit into place one way.
....

----------------------------
> Howard:
> Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas
> that 
> are different from sense objects? I doubt it. 
...
S: Well yes. Apart from visible object, sound, smell, taste,
hardness/softness, motion and temperature, all other rupas can only be
experienced as mind-door objects, including cohesion/water. Maybe I
misunderstand you.
....
> If he had, however, I wouldn't accept it - I would not accept on
> the 
> basis of authority a proposition that is in principle unverifiable. The
> Buddha, 
> himself, cautioned accepting a matter on the basis of authority, but
> urged 
> our investigating the matter for ourselves.
> ---------------------------------------------
...
S: I agree. Verifiable, however, depends on understanding and
accumulations. Just because there is no direct experience of a reality
now, doesn’t mean it may not be in future or there is no benefit at all in
‘straightening our views’ at least intellectually. I believe that second
quote I gave in the message to James on straightening views would be
relevant here, even if it was not directly so in the other context;-).

Just been given two minutes for a walk by Jon...so dashing off.

Metta,

Sarah
=====

	
33722

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 3:30am
Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 5 Straight to deep Dhamma?

Talk With Rob K pt 5 Straight to deep Dhamma?

Next, I asked Rob about the project he is leading with some students 
in Japan who are translating Buddhism In Daily Life. (By Nina) I 
won?ft transcribe the details here, but I am certainly looking 
forward to seeing the Japanese version when it?fs available. 
I asked him if he was interested in actively promoting Dhamma in 
Japan, but he said he wasn?ft, at least not as strongly as
before. 
?gI?fm more content to let it come to me.?h He did say
that Japanese 
people were easier to talk to with about Dhamma concepts such as 
khamma about than Westerners because there's not the same skepticism.
I questioned this, saying that at least in the West there is a large 
mass market for Buddhist books, that at least get people in the gate, 
and welcome them. (Whereas in Japan, all is in the hands of the 
Priests, and Japanese Buddhists are entirely passive to their 
authority, it seems to me. The ?grely on yourself?h principle 
doesn?ft seem to be in effect) So I said I saw value in these pop 
Buddhist books, such as those by Thich Nhat Hahn, that at least get 
people interested, as they did me. And I said I?fd like to see
the same kind of pop Buddhist books become popular in Japan. (They 
are not, unless they are books by founders of such sects as Soka 
Gakai.)

Phil: I don?ft have as much experience talking about Dhamma with 
Japanese people as you do, but I would have thought a more iysashi-
kei (healing) gentle approach would be best at the beginning.

Rob: There are so many philosophies in the world that give you 
comfort. You can find 100 philosophies that will comfort you and get 
you through the night. But if you don?ft get to the heart of the 
Dhamma, about the present moment, about the conditionality, about the 
matter, about the six sense doors, you might as well teach those 
other philosophies. 
When you started studying Abhidhamma you saw something different in 
it right? I mean, in my class I talk immediately, I walk about 
Buddhism. What is real? What is happening now? What is reality now? 
And they say ?gah, I?fm in this room?h and I say, you
know ?gno, what 
is absolutely real? Seeing, hearing, tasting, touch. Just straight 
from the beginning. And the people that have the tendency, the 
ability to understand it start to get interested, and the ones who 
don?ft, don?ft. 

Phil: I do realize that, and I?fm not saying that we should go
back to...kind of regress and think about teaching from wrong view in 
order to lead someone to...

Rob: There?fs a danger in doing that. I do know what you?fre
saying. I mean, Thich Nhat Hahn has made Buddhism more popular in the 
West, there?fs a general idea. There?fs merit in there.
I?fm not saying there?fs not merit in there. But there?fs
danger in it too. It?fs a dangerous thing in my opinion.
It?fs a
double-edged sword. 

Phil: (talks about a collection of the Buddha?fs teaching that
is left in Japanese hotel rooms, that is chock full of translations 
that I now see are wrong, but which as the same time got me 
interested in the Buddha?fs teaching.) There was one line in
there,?g a thousand candles can be lit by a single flame?h
and it had given me the idea that an act of kindness on my part could 
ripple....but there are so many conditions, and now I see that I can 
give people momentary calm...if I say so myself, I?fm a great 
(English) teacher, because for a long time I was inspired by the 
ideal of giving kindness to people. And I do give them some comfort, 
some calm, give them a little laugh, but then it?fs the
conditions that are going to take over, and there?fs only so much 
that I can do to help people. Except by teaching the true Dhamma.
(maybe someday.) 

Rob: Teaching the deep Dhamma. I mean you can hear that sort of thing 
in many different philosophies. I mean, Khun Sujin sometimes gets 
criticized in Thailand because she?fs always straight to the
deepest part of the Dhamma, about annata, about realities. And people 
are saying to her, why not soften up the approach, why not go 
for...the other stuff, you know. That?fs also Buddhism. She says 
?gyes,that?fs true, but annata is...?h The Buddha said
the other teachers teach metta, they teach compassion, they teach 
right view, khamma and vipaka to a certain degree. But it?fs only
the Buddha that teaches annata. And human life is short. So those who 
have the ability to understand the deep parts, she wants to help 
them. 
It?fs not wrong, I?fm not criticizing you at all for doing 
kindness, for helping people, that?fs good too. 

Phil: Now I know the limits of what we can actually do for other 
people, in that sense, just by being kind.
	
33723

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:02am
Subject: Full Control !

Friends:

Equilibrist Steering:

Avoiding all Evil
Doing only Good
Purifying Mind
So teach all Buddhas. 
Dhammapada 183


There are these 5 kinds of Control:
Control by the code of the rules.
Control by aware guarding of the senses.
Control by understanding the mental forces.
Control by tolerance of the conditions.
Control by the effort of mental purification.
The path of Purification Vism 7



Crucial is Timing in the 4 kinds of Action: 
Action that is pleasant now, but later results in pain.
Action that is painful now & also later results in pain.
Action that is painful now, but later results in pleasure.
Action that is pleasant now & also later results in pleasure.
The Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha MN I 305



Always aware & alert:
With Awareness of the body well established,
Controlling the 6 sense sources of contact,
By such continuous focus the Bhikkhu can come
to know Nibbana on his own...
The Inspirations. Udana 28




All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma






	
33724

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:18am
Subject: No Creator !

Friends:
Ignorance & Craving creates the pleasure & pain:

A wandering philosopher once asked the sitting Buddha:
Are pleasure & pain created by oneself ?
Not so, friend, replied the Buddha.
Are pleasure & pain then created by another ?
Not so, friend..
Are pleasure & pain then created both by oneself & another ?
Not so, friend..
Are pleasure & pain created neither by oneself nor another ?
Not so, friend..




How is it then, are there no pleasure & pain at all ?
Neither so, friend. There are indeed both pleasure & pain, 
replied the Buddha and explained:

Friend, if one assumes that: The Feeling itself and the one who feels
are one & the same, then inherently one constructs a 'self' existing
a priori and that this 'one-self' is the creator of pleasure & pain...
I do not agree with this...
But, friend, if one assumes: The Feeling itself is one, and the one who 
feels it, is another, then inherently one constructs reference to one as
'being stricken' by feeling and therefore, that the creator of pleasure 
& pain is another... Neither do I agree with this...
Without veering towards any of these two opposed extremes, 
the Well-Gone-One teaches the Dhamma in the middle:
Ignorance causes & conditions mental construction.
Construction causes & conditions consciousness.
Consciousness causes & conditions mind-&-matter.
Mind-&-matter causes & conditions the 6-senses.
The 6-senses causes & conditions contact.
Contact causes & conditions feeling.
Feeling causes & conditions craving.
Craving causes & conditions clinging.
Clinging causes & conditions becoming.
Becoming causes & conditions birth.
Birth causes & conditions ageing, sickness & Death.
Such is the origin & arising of this whole mass of Suffering...
Consequently: 

Cessation of ignorance ceases mental construction.
Cessation of construction ceases consciousness.
Cessation of consciousness ceases mind-&-matter.
Cessation of mind-&-matter ceases the 6-senses.
Cessation of the 6-senses ceases contact.
Cessation of contact ceases feeling.
Cessation of feeling ceases craving.
Cessation of craving ceases clinging.
Cessation of clinging ceases becoming.
Cessation of becoming ceases birth.
Cessation of birth ceases ageing, sickness & Death.
Such is the very End of this whole mass of Suffering...

This convinced the speculator. May many be even so.

Source:
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN II 22-3.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html
http://www.wisdompubs.org/products/0861713311.cfm







All yours in the Dhamma.
Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma






	
33725

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 5:36am
Subject: Amputation Sutta ;)

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" <nichicon@h...> wrote:
> Dear Agrios, RobM and Nina,
> 
> As to eye sense, we can read and read that 'the physical eye does not
> see' but something that made that clearer to me was a show the other
> night where a child who was born without ears couldn't hear anything of
> the outside world (but only himself they said) until he was fitted with
> a special kind of hearing aid that set up vibrations in the bones of his
> head. He still didn't have normal physical ears, but the way I
> understood it, he could hear when he wore the device because the the
> hearing rupa/ear(door) could arise when there was contact with the
> sound(waves) from the bones.
> 
> I'm afraid that doesn't help me understand the heart-base as having any
> set 'home', though.
> 
> peace,
> connie

Hi Connie and others interested in rupas.
This what I was thinking on an other day. ;)

Amputation Sutta ;)

- Monks, I will talk about form as tought in Abidhamma!
- Yes Lord,
- Once I told you that it makes more sense to consider self to be this body, 
then mentality as this very body stays with you much longer then mentality.
If you close an eye, would you see any visual objects?

- Yes Lord, we could see our eyelids.
- Consider then removing an eye by a skilled surgeon, would you still see anything
with this eye?
- No Lord.
- Now, consider not only removing an eye by a skilled surgeon, 
but replacing this very eye with an electronic camera connected 
to your nervous system. Would you see any visual objects then?
- Yes, Lord.
- Now, consider replacing second eye...[same as above]
- Now, consider replacing both ears [...]
- Now, consider replacing tongue [...]
- Now, consider replacing nose [...]
- Now, consider replacing whole skin and feeling receptors [...]
- Whats left monks?
- All the external rupas and most of all - our favorite heart base inside our heart!
- Consider then replacing heart itself with electronic device, 
could this be done?
And the monks said with great sadness:

YES LORD!

:(

metta, 
Agrios
	
 
33726

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 029 )

Dear Sarah,

Thanks for your message and queries on my posts.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing

PS: Please see below.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
....
S: I'm not sure we can say this. As you say, they are arising
most the
time. Whilst the grosser forms may easily be recognised, what about 
the very common subtler forms arising even now as we speak?
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: You will know from my posts that I intend for average readers 
and not expert readers. For average readers, lobha or greediness and 
dosa or hatred are quite evident. Subtle forms of lobha, dosa, moha 
have not been talking. Regarding subtler forms, there would need 
separate communication and this will be for advanced practitioners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > We are most of the time in lobha cittas or otherwise in dosa 
cittas 
> > if we are not specifically practising dhamma in some way. 
....
S: I'm not quite sure what this last sentence means. cittas are
so 
fast,that even now while we're discussing dhamma, there are bound
to 
be moments of kusala and akusala. It always comes back to the citta, 
I think.
... 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: What is sure is that if someone is not in mahasatipatthana, 
most of cittas will not be good ones.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> <.....>
> > In our daily life, when we are heavily attached to something and 
we 
> > feel happy then we are in lobha cittas associated with joy or 
piti 
> > and this is called samanassa as explained in the previous post. 
....
S: I'm not sure there has to be `heavily attached' for
somanassa to 
arise with the citta? Again, I think it can be quite subtle, like now 
when we look at the computer screen there can be a little lobha and a 
little pleasant feeling....
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I wrote 2 separate sentences but joined with 'and' 
conjunction. 'Heavily attached' means lobha. We fell happy 
means 'piti' and its effect.

I did not mean '' there has to be 'heavily attached' for somanassa 
to arise with the citta''. Please re-read my message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
....
S: Perhaps we should make it clear that when there is no view, such as
looking at the computer screen without any thought either way about 
kamma or the practice, then there is no wrong view. Only when there 
is the wrong view arising, is it this type of citta you're
describing.
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: A single citta with its associated cetasikas including ditthi 
cetasika arise in lobha cittas that are ditthi sampayutta. Wrong view 
here is a translational word. What I mean is ditthi. I just include 
simple understandable examples. When lobha cittas arise, there may or 
may not be 'the wrong view you said'. But every ditthi-sampayutta 
lobha citta does have 'ditthi' cetasika.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> <...>
> > As 
> > soon as lobha citta arises, it gives rise to kamma. 
> 
> > That kamma may give rise to patisandhi cittas. 
....
S: Like Nina suggested, I think we have to be careful to distinguish
between kilesa (defilements) arising and accumulating and kamma-patha,
courses of action likely to bring results. Not all lobha cittas are
kamma-patha.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Why? Do you have any evidence that 'Not all lobha cittas are 
kamma-patha' ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In (026) you also wrote that `kusala cittas and akusala cittas
are 
cittas that have kamma-producing power and they are called kammapatha 
cittas. I think we need to restrict this term to the 10 wholesome and 
unwholesome courses of action. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I am discussing cittas. Not kamma. There are 12 akusala cittas. 
unwholesome course of actions and cittupada will not be the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the same message, you wrote:
`With the exception of 2 cittas called pancadvaravajjana citta and
manodvaravajjana citta, all kiriya cittas arise in arahats.' Why
these
exceptions??
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Because they can arise in non-arahats including putthujana and 
even lower beings like hell beings and animals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: In (032), again I'd like to question a comment on the citta 
with wrong view in the child who does not know about kamma when lobha 
arises. I'd say, it depends. Just because there is no knowledge
of 
the dhamma doesn't mean there is always ditthi arising with
lobha. 
What do you think? 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I said these are for average readers. In the same message, I 
include that this citta can also arise in adult. And vicee versa also 
happen. 8-year-old arahat will not have ditthi or wrong view and no 
akusala cittas and kusala cittas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

When there is upekkha with lobha, may be better to translate it 
as `indifferent feeling' rather than `equanimous
feeling' so as not 
to confuse it with the wholesome factor of equanimity
(tatramajjhattata), but this is a minor comment;-).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Thanks. I took it a major comment. :-).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a couple of comments I might add on your other series. I look
forward to your feedback as usual, Htoo. I learn a lot from your 
series and your posts help me question my limited understanding of 
these details.

Anumodana and I'm glad conditions encouraged you to keep
posting;-).

Metta,

Sarah
======
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Thanks for your support.

With Metta,

Htoo Naing
	

 	 

	
33727

From: agriosinski <agriosinski@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:09am
Subject: Re: just Heart thing

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
> Hi Agrios,

Hi Rob,
[...]

> US: Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu, when they arise in the Kama-
> sphere and Rupa-sphere, must depend on rupa (matter), just as cakkhu-
> vinnana and others depend on eye-sensitivity and others.
> 
> RM: Mano-dhatu (mind-element) include the five-door-adverting citta 
> and the two receiving cittas (one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). 
> Manovinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness element) includes the remaining 
> 76 cittas (not including the ten sense-consciousness cittas or the 
> three mano-dhatu cittas). See p146 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive 
> Manual of Abhidhamma". U Silanda's use of the term "-sphere" is 
> incorrect; it should be "-world" or "-plane". Spheres (vacara) and 
> worlds / planes (loka) are related but distinct. See p30 of Bhikkhu 
> Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma". In this context, it is 
> loka that is meant, not sphere. It is the nature of the loka that all 
> cittas arising require a rupa as a base. It is the nature of the 
> arupa-loka (immaterial plane) that cittas do not require a rupa as a 
> base.

U Silananda is plainly stating that everything in rupa sphere MUST
be based in rupa and everything in arupa sphere mustn't. 
This is what you told me long time ago, and then I asked you about
list of conditions to figure out why is it so. This is what Nina writes
in her books, and this is the same what she wrote answering my question.

But I didn't ask about rupa and arupa worlds, spheres or their nature.
I ask only about mechanism, need, a reason for mano-dhatu and 
manovinnana-dhatu to be based one time in rupa and another not.
In other worlds, the same mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu can
be once in "a MUST" need of rupa for its arising , and the other time not 
at all. 
And these are the same Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu.

This does not make sense to me.
Since you decided to make little return, let me do it as well.
We are back in conditionality and mano seems conditioned by enviroment.
And I am not understanding conditionality as yet.

As for rest of explanation, I did use the same logic to go one by one
and see what can be used. But you see, doing something like this is
just plain speculation and when one is short on direct knowledge,
one can simply create as many rupas as is needed.

I am cutting out whole Buddhaghosa part.
Buddhaghosa wrote some books, done some good job and some bad. Naturally.


> 
> Metta,
> Rob M :-)

metta,
Agrios
	
33728

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 2:18am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration/Victor: was: I have a wonderful wife

Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 6/8/04 4:13:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> Hi Howard,
> 
> Butting in here...
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote: 
> >My "eye" has been seeing discomfort with
> >regard 
> >to concentration and volition for quite a while. Of course my view could
> >be 
> >jaundiced.
> ....
> S: Certainly my ‘eye’ hasn’t seen any ‘discomfort’ (let alone any ‘scare
> the bejesus’ on account of these factors or comments by you or others on
> them. Of course, I may have been missing something (!!), but speaking for
> this household (I’d better not speak for the list;-)), I’d say your view
> is pretty jaundiced here;-).
> 
> Seriously, some of the best discussions on DSG have been with you on these
> very ‘phenomena’ and also on effort, concepts and realities and many other
> related topics. So please don’t rest until satisfied. You have our deepest
> respect in this regard and I do know others feel the same. I know Nina
> also appreciates it a lot when you add comments on the Vism or other
> threads.
> 
> I’m sure you also often want to say ‘There he/she goes again!’ when we
> speak too;-).
> 
> Metta,
> 
> Sarah
==========================
No need for concern: I'm not satisfied, and I'm not resting; I won't 
rest until I *know*, and until then - and after as well - I'll keep on looking 
and inquiring ... (and contending!! ;-).

With striving and contention and much metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33729

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:18am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Starting the journey to nibbana ( 03 )

Sarah:

Dear Htoo,

-- Htoo Naing <htootintnaing@y...> wrote: 

Some of members may have been on the Path that is Noble Eightfold 
Path while others are just approaching.
...
S: To be honest, I'm not sure what this means. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I mean some may have been stream-enterers or once-returners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah:

As I understand, the Eightfold (or rather Fivefold usually) Path 
refers to the mental factors you elaborate which arise together with 
moments of satipatthana. the Noble Eightfold Path factors only arise 
with the lokuttara cittas which have nibbana as object. Are we on the 
same path here??
....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Quite difficult to say. I think we are on the same tract. But 
some may be at the beginning, some may be near the end and some in 
the middle somewhere. If you stay in mahasatipatthana and I am not , 
or, if I stay in mahasatipatthana and you do not, then we are not on 
the same path but may still be on the same tract.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S:Before there can be any real understanding of dukkha, I think namas 
and rupas have to be understood clearly. Do you agree?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Theorywise yes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ....
> > 
> > We have passed on this several times and we now have the right 
view.
> > Having right view leads us to right thinking or right resolve. As 
our
> > view is right, all thoughts associated with right view will 
become right
> > thought.
> ...
> S: Perhaps we should stress that right thought (sammaa sankappa)
always
> arises with right view, so it's not a matter of one first and
then
> another. Also, I think we need to stress that this is nothing to do 
with
> thinking and thoughts as we are used to these terms. It is vitakka
> cetasika (which accompanies most cittas) and directs (in this case
> `rightly' the citta onto the object which right view
understands. 
It leads
> the citta and without it, the other factors such as right view 
couldn't
> perform their functions. 
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I realise you're trying to keep this series fairly straight
forward 
and I'm not suggesting it should be so complicated as I may be
making 
it;-).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: Good. Thanks. :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> In (04) you go onto say that having developed right thoughts
`our 
actions
> will become right actions'. Again, I'd add similar comments
with 
regard to
> the virati (abstaining) cetasikas of right speech, action and 
livelihood,
> one of which may arise with the mundane cittas naturally when there 
is
> right view arising.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S: 
So I also have a question mark about the last para in (04) about 
waking up, having right thoughts which `will dictate all our
actions 
though out the day and night until we go into deep sleep',
because 
I'm not sure it squares with what you are teaching from an
Abhidhamma 
understanding about rapidly changing cittas and moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Htoo: I am not squaring. If one has determined, he will stay in that 
state.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S:Please accept any comments I make as a token of my respect for all 
your writing and sharing Htoo. I look forward to any further 
discussion on these or other points.

Metta,

Sarah
p.s You've asked me before to mention when there are posts
addressed 
to you, as others have too. I'm sorry, I usually forget and of
course 
would like to encourage you to read all posts and answer any 
questions or add comments on other threads too if you're
inclined;-)
==================
Htoo: The more we discuss, the more we find fine points.

With Metta, 

Htoo Naing
	
33730

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 7:02am
Subject: Re: just Heart thing

Hi Agrios,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" 
<agriosinski@y...> wrote:
> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 
<rob.moult@j...> wrote:
> U Silananda is plainly stating that everything in rupa sphere MUST
> be based in rupa and everything in arupa sphere mustn't. 
> This is what you told me long time ago, and then I asked you about
> list of conditions to figure out why is it so. This is what Nina 
writes
> in her books, and this is the same what she wrote answering my 
question.
> 
> But I didn't ask about rupa and arupa worlds, spheres or their 
nature.
> I ask only about mechanism, need, a reason for mano-dhatu and 
> manovinnana-dhatu to be based one time in rupa and another not.
> In other worlds, the same mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu can
> be once in "a MUST" need of rupa for its arising , and the other 
time not 
> at all. 
> And these are the same Mano-dhatu and manovinnana-dhatu.

=====

Same citta, different world so different conditions. There are always 
a multiplicity of conditions at work.

=====
> 
> This does not make sense to me.
> Since you decided to make little return, let me do it as well.
> We are back in conditionality and mano seems conditioned by 
enviroment.
> And I am not understanding conditionality as yet.
> 
> As for rest of explanation, I did use the same logic to go one by 
one
> and see what can be used. But you see, doing something like this is
> just plain speculation and when one is short on direct knowledge,
> one can simply create as many rupas as is needed.

Sorry for getting side-tracked and going off-topic.

U Silananda, Nina and I have said that the fact that mind depends on 
matter is a function of the plane / world; in kama-loka and rupa-
loka, all cittas need a physical base and in arupa-loka, no cittas 
need a physical base. In other words, the type of world / plane is 
one of the conditions that determines the requirement for a physical 
base.

If I understand your question properly you are asking, "why is this 
so?" and my answer of, "it is the nature of the plane / world" seems 
empty. Sorry, I don't have anything better to offer... perhaps Nina 
has some insight here.

If you question is "how (through what conditions) are the mind and 
the physical base related?", then the answer is, "matter is a 
condition for mind through base-prenascence condition (vatthu-
purejata paccaya) and mind is a condition for matter through 
postnascence condition (pacchajata paccaya)".

To avoid repeating my earlier mistake of going off-track, I will wait 
for your reply before going into details on these conditions. By the 
way, neither of these two conditons apply in arupa-loka planes / 
worlds because there is no matter in these planes / worlds.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33731

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:27am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing

Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 6/8/04 6:54:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sarahdhhk@y... writes:

> >Howard:
> > Has the Buddha ever asserted the existence of rupas in the suttas
> >that 
> >are different from sense objects? I doubt it. 
> ...
> S: Well yes. Apart from visible object, sound, smell, taste,
> hardness/softness, motion and temperature, all other rupas can only be
> experienced as mind-door objects, including cohesion/water. Maybe I
> misunderstand you.
> 
======================
I include mind door as a sense door. (That's in the suttas as much as 
the Abhidhamma, and moreover it is clear to me. ;-)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
33732

From: htootintnaing <htootintnaing@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:23am
Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 033 )

Dear Dhamma Friends,

The 9th citta and the 10th citta of 89 cittas are both dosa mula 
cittas. Dosa means hatred or aversion and mula means root. These 2 
cittas have dosa as their root condition.

The 9th citta in its full name is called

'domanassa sahagatm patigha sampayutta asankharika citta'.

Domanassa constitutes 'do' , 'mana' , and 'assa'. Mana means 'mind 
related' and 'do' or 'du' means bad. So domanassa means 'disagreeable 
or unpleasant mental feeling'.

Sahagata means 'to go with'. Patigha means 'hurting'. Sampayutta 
means 'mixed with'. Asankharika means 'not prompted'.

Both dosa cittas are the same in terms of hurting nature. But the 9th 
citta is asankharika dosa citta. So it does not need any prompt. This 
citta can be observed in case a being who is annoyed.

When a man is hit and hurt, he will feel pain and after pain he 
starts to feel unease in his mind and this uneasiness may later 
change to much more aggressive form of dosa. No one influences him to 
be angry. There are many other examples in our daily life. As long as 
unprompted, all dosa cittas are the 9th citta of 89 cittas.

The 10th citta of 89 cittas in its full name is

'domanassa sahagatam patigha sampayutta sasankharika citta'.

There is a man who heard the news of burglery. He did not feel 
anything at the time he heard the news. But someone told him that the 
house that was done was his house. Then the man started to feel 
angry. At least, in this example, his hatred is associated with 
sluggishness and it has to be prompted by other or outside influence.

May you all be free from suffering.

With Unlimited Metta,

Htoo Naing
	
33733

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am
Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2

Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2

Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that whatever appears now through
one of the six doorways is dhamma. We should ask ourselves to what extent we
understand the meaning of dhamma. We have to listen again and consider again
what we hear, in order to understand that everything is dhamma. There is
dhamma right now, it has arisen because of its appropriate conditions. It
could not appear if it had not arisen. If we do not understand what dhamma
is, it is useless to study the Tipitaka. Seeing is dhamma, it is a reality
that has its own characteristic and that cannot be changed into something
else. Seeing sees what appears through the eyesense. Anger is dhamma, it has
its own characteristic, it cannot be changed into attachment. When we are
angry we usually think of a disagreeable person, but we should know that a
person is a concept. Thinking is dhamma but the object of thinking is an
idea or concept. When a dhamma appears through one of the six doors
understanding of its characteristic can be developed and there is no need
for words. The dhamma that arises does so because of its own conditions and
it has no owner. It is non-self and it does not belong to a self.
All nåmas and rúpas that appear are dhammas. We read in the Abhidhamma as
well as in the Suttas about attachment, aversion and ignorance, about kusala
and akusala, but the Abhidhamma classifies nåma and rúpa fully and in
detail. The prefix ³abhi² of Abhidhamma means great, pre-eminent, refined,
or in detail. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit because it helps us to
understand the akusala cittas and kusala cittas arising in our life, and the
ways they are conditioned. This again helps us to realize that they are
anattå.
We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on
Elements, Ch 2, § 15, What is impermanent):

At Såvatthí...Then (the Exalted One) said:-
³Body, brethren, is impermanent. What is impermanent that is suffering. What
is suffering, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is
not mine, I am not it, it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded
by perfect insight of what it really is...²
The same is said of the khandhas of feeling, perception, the activities and
consciousness. 

We may contemplate the three characteristics inherent in all conditioned
dhammas, but through the Abhidhamma we can gain a deeper understanding of
the meaning of the three characteristics as explained in this Sutta. We
learn through the Abhidhamma that seeing arises and falls away within a
process of cittas, that it is preceded and followed by other cittas that
succeed one another very rapidly. After seeing has fallen away kusala cittas
or akusala cittas arise. Nobody can change the order of the cittas that
succeed one another. What we take for our body are rúpas originated from
different factors, and they arise and fall away. What is impermanent is of
no refuge, and thus it is dukkha, unsatisfactory. The Abhidhamma can be a
foundation for the development of insight that leads to the direct
understanding of the three characteristics of conditioned realities.
****
Nina
	
33734

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heartbase , no 1.

Hi Howard and Agrios,
allow me to combine, since your questions partly overlap.
Howard wrote:
======================
A different but related question is why any physical base is required
at all from the Abhidhammic perspective. Doesn't Abhidhamma take bhavanga
citta to be the mind door? Also, aren't there supposedly realms of (fully)
disembodied beings who still function mentally.
N: In the arupa brahma planes there is only nama, not rupa, and thus, no
heartbase is necessary there.
Yes, the heartbase is not doorway, it is physical base for most cittas. See
Rob M for details. 
The bhavanga-citta arising immediately before the mind-door process begins
with the mind-door adverting-consciousness, is the mind-door. It is the
means by which the cittas of that process experience the object.
The heartbase is a difficult subject and as you said before, you only find
seven rupas acceptable: three are tangible objects, and in addition: colour,
sound, odour and flavour. This is a good beginning though. They appear all
the time in daily life.
It occurs to me how little we know even about those rupas. We can read about
them, but do we really understand them as rupa, different from nama? Not
mixed at all with nama? This is very difficult, but it is necessary to have
clear understanding of nama and rupa through the development of insight.
That is, direct understanding, no naming or thinking. No need to think of
subject and object. I can appreciate all the more A. Sujin's emphaze on: is
there any understanding of dhamma now? What about seeing now? I realize how
we mix up seeing and colour, hearing and sound. Nama and rupa are there at
the same time, but sati can be aware of only one characteristic.
Seeing experiences colour, but not without eyesense. Eyesense is a necessary
condition for the arising of seeing. And so it is with the other four
senses. Considering conditions can help to also appreciate the rupas that
are the senses. Then we have already twelve rupas that are acceptable.
Eyesense is doorway and base for seeing, and the other cittas of the
eye-door process still have eyesense as doorway, but not as base. They have
a different base. 
First we have to understand the meaning of base. You also find it difficult
to understand that seeing arises at a base, the eyebase. We should not have
pictorial ideas about this fact. That is confusing. Perhaps it is easier to
understand the bodybase: this is bodysensitivity all over the body. Wherever
tangible object impinges, there is the base for the arising of
body-consciousness that experiences the hardness or softness, heat or cold,
motion or pressure. In this plane we are nama and rupa, not just nama.
Cittas are somehow connected with the body, and this makes it clearer that
there are bases for cittas. Cittas must originate from somewhere. The words
used by the Tiika in connection with base: <assistance, consolidation and
maintenance>. In the Patthana we find that the bases are support-condition,
nissaya-paccaya, for the cittas concerned.
The sense objects and the sensebases are impinging, and they are reckoned as
coarse rupas. But, the bases are difficult to know directly. We have to
consider them more. The heartbase is a subtle rupa, but if we understand at
least in theory that physical bases are necessary conditions for the cittas
concerned, we can also understand that the other cittas need a physical
base. This is called the heartbase.
I wrote in my Tiika study:
Although we cannot experience it now, what can we learn about this? It is
the physical basis for many cittas, included in mind-element and
mind-consciousness element. It is a condition for other realities and it
itself is conditioned by kamma which keeps on producing it throughout life,
on and on. We are in a five khandha plane, meaning, what we call *we* are
nama and rupa. Each citta takes a new base (be it sensebase or heartbase),
except during the last javanacittas of a life which all depend on one
heartbase. This study helps us to see at least intellectually, that the
heartbase and the cittas that depend on it are very temporary, beyond
control and not to be taken for mine or self. All these studies of details
we do now are accumulated as a foundation so that later on panna can arise
which understands the true nature of dhammas.
Nina.
	
33735

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart thing and Buddhaghosa.

Hi Rob M, 
op 08-06-2004 03:27 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:

> Your question has been asked by others. I have a set of Abhidhamma
> lecture notes written by U Silananda and there is a section
> titled, "Reasons for Existence of Hadaya Vatthu" extracted from the
> commentary to the Visuddhimagga and the commentary to the
> Abhidhammathsangaha. I reproduce it below with my clarifications.
N: In my Tiika study of the Vis I used the same, but took them from U.
Narada. But I added an additional argument. But first a comment on this
quote of U Silananda, because not everyone will know what is the Vatthu-duka
and Arammana-duka. 
> US: The reason why it is not mentioned in the Dhammasangani, where
> all rupas are mentioned, is that if it were mentioned there, the
> uniformity of presentation of the Vatthu-duka and Arammana-duka, so
> important for the understnding of the doctrine and the realization of
> truth by litteners, would be broken and thus defeat the very purpose
> of the doctrine - the realization of truth by listeners.
N: The pairs of bases (vatthu) and objects(arammana):
The five bases and the five corresponding sense-objects are respectively the
receivers and impingers. But this is not so with heart-base and cognizable
object. Instead, cognizable object impinges on the mind-door (life-continuum
*) and appears in it. Hence, heart-base is not a door and so it can never be
a conditioning state of base-prenascence-faculty condition.>
The Tiika deals here with the pairs of bases (vatthus) and of objects. In
the Dhsg this is in the Matika, but the translator has left this out. All
rupas can be the object of mind-consciousness, thus, one cannot say: "There
is matter that is the object of mind-consciousness, there is matter that is
not the object of mind-consciousness".
I want to add more about aayatanas, sensebases to clarify this. There are 6
inward ayatanas: the five senses and citta (mind-base, which is not the
heartbase, but which includes all cittas). There are 6 outer ayatanas: the
five sense objects and dhammaayatana, including cetasikas, subtle rupas and
nibbana. 
Heartbase is included in the subtle rupas. Thus, five inner and outer
ayatans form pairs, but the heartbase itself does not form a pair with
citta. 
Tiika Text: So the
physical-basis dyads and object dyads being thus made inconsistent, the
teaching would lack unity. That is why the heart-basis is not mentioned,
not because it is unapprehendable.
N: We find reasons for the way of classifications: to help those who are
capable of understanding and for the sake of the beauty of the teaching.
This is an argument that counts. Why? At that time the teachings were orally
transmitted and rehearsed. The great harmony of arrangement helped to do so.
That is why we see that sections are numbered as Ones, Twos (dyads), Threes
etc. The whole book of Yamaka consists of dyads. We also see this principle
in the Suttanta. It is important to see that there are different headings of
arrangement, and that there is non-inconsistency as we read here. The Pali
has: desanaabhedo: desanaa: teaching. Bhedo: division or category. Thus
literally: in accordance with the way of categorizing the teachings. This
makes it more understandable that in the Dhammasangani the heartbase is not
mentioned. 
Why heartbase? I am personally more inclined to heart than to brain. Another
explanation by the Tiika of Vis:
Tiika Text: It is known that its location is there because of the heart's
exhaustion (khijjana) in one who thinks of anything, bringing it to mind
intently and directing his whole mind to it' (Pm. 449-50).
N: Here the Tiika commentator wants to make understandable in conventional
terms why the heart-base is the physical support of citta.
R: With the recent discussion of Buddhaghosa, I pulled from my bookcase
> a hard-cover book that I bought a few months back, but never had the
> time to read. It is "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" by Bimala
> Charan Law, with a foreward by Mrs. C.A.F. Rhys Davids.
N: Sarah and I discussed it and we both like it very much.
After Buddhaghosa had written
> out the book for a third time, Sakka took pity and gave back the two
> earlier versions.
N: I was considering these three times, and this is understandable when
taking into account the utmost care in the tranmission of the teachings. As
I wrote before: reciting in a group of arahats gives extra control. Checking
again and again is important.
R: when Buddhaghosa died, he was reborn in Tusita heaven (i.e.
> he was not an Arahant).
N: Tusita heaven: a place for ariyans, though not arahat. That means
something to me.
Nina.
	
33736

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base, no 2.

Hi Howard and Agrios,
My answer to Howard was long, since I like to see heartbase in a wider
context, not in isolation.
op 07-06-2004 22:33 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...:
please allow me to take this opportunity to thank you for all your great
books 
> and
> translations. I am thrilled to have opportunity to ask you questions on
> Dhamma.
N: You are wellcome any time.
A: I know this from your books Nina. I am asking why
> mind-consciousness needs rupa base.
N: See post 1 to Howard and you and also Rob M. Also about Buddhaghosa, see
Rob M. 
A: One can think about it, I know that.
> The problem is, I can't realize it and all this alleged rupas just plainly do
> not
> present themselves at all. ...
> Whole theory of them, sounds like really bad chemistry, like some speculation
> which never, never can be realized as it is just plain concept of archaic
> origins.
N : It is a subtle rupa as I explained and hard to realize it. The coarse
rupas are already difficult to realize directly, we should not expect too
much. It is not necessary to realize all rupas in insight and at
enlightenment. We talked about this with A. Sujin. By the way, if you have
any chance, do come over to Thailand to meet her. Malaysia is near.
I quote from my Tiika study and the Q. of Larry who is leading the whole
study of the Vis. BTW we are just starting viññanakkhandha now. Here is the
quote:

Heart-base can condition citta by: base-object- prenascence-dependence
condition. It is prenascent, it is base, it can also be the object. In the
Patthana it is explained that it can be the object of insight or of lobha: ³
(One) practises insight into impermanency, suffering, impersonality...
enjoys and delights in the internal (heart-base). Taking it as object,
arises lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises
grief.²
This shows that a rupa that can be experienced only through the mind-door is
not only experienced by insight, but it can also be experienced by akusala
citta. 
U Narada, p. 33: during the process of dying: <In this condition [N: as
object and base] it is this heart-base that is taken as object by all the
dying impulsions even if there is delight, grief, doubt or restlessness at
the time.> 
*******
Larry:Even so, there is reason to doubt that this could happen.
N: We never know, it depends on conditions, we cannot speculate about this.
Heartbase is a condition by way of base, and also it can be a condition by
way of object at the same time, during life or at the end of life, as we
have seen (U Narada, refers to Patthana). Some people find it hard to accept
that what can only be experienced through the mind-door and what they cannot
experience now is not necessarily a concept. Heartbase is a reality, a
dhamma. A concept can be a condition by way of object, but it could never be
a condition by way of base, as is the case with the heart-base. Thus, how
could heartbase be a concept, an idea, a product of thinking?
L: I see that the Vism. commentary says the heartbase is to be known "from
> scriptures and from reasoning", in other words, conceptually.
N: I am glad you mention this. We have to return to the Pali text:
<kathameta.m vi~n~naatabbanti? Aagamato, yuttito ca.>
How can this be known? aagamato: by the scriptures. Yuttito: by application.
There is nothing about logical reasoning in the Pali text, this is too
limited. Yutta: yoked, connected, applied to. You see here that this is a
much larger meaning? Applied not just by thinking, it can be by direct
experience. From the scriptures, yes, had the Buddha not taught us, we would
not know that there is a heart-base. People may doubt again. Only the
sotapanna has eradicated doubt. By the development of satipatthana he has
realized by direct experience many realities. Suppose many are realized but
not all, this does not give rise to doubt, because of the confidence in the
Dhamma has become unshakable. Because of direct experience through panna,
confidence becomes steadfast and firm.

A: I had to ask. If somebody realized rupa, I will try to meet him and ask
him
> to help me. But I've never meet someone like this. I am trying to see if Rob,
> Sarah
> or you would help me.
N: I understand you remarks and doubts. If we see that figurative language
is used to explain realities we shall not mix realities and concepts. We
shall not think of bad chemistry. Everybody has to develop his own
understanding. We have to associate with the right friends, listen, consider
and practice accordingly. It would not help you to ask someone else whether
he has realized the heartbase. It can only be known by insight. Nobody can
do that for you. So long as we are not sotapanna we have to accept that
there is doubt, that there are many realities we only know in theory. A.
Sujin exhorted us to develop understanding of the realities that appear now.
We should not say beforehand: impossible to directly know this or that rupa.
It all depends on conditions, on accumulated pañña.
But A. Sujin is the right friend who can clarify many things for you. But
you will notice that she will begin with: is there any understanding of
dhamma now? Of reality that appears now? (See my post no 1). It is the only
right approach, as I see it.
And why should we not begin to develop understanding of those seven rupas
that appear all the time in daily life? One at a time through the relevant
sensedoors? And I use the word: develop. There cannot be clear understanding
in the beginning. Understanding has to grow by considering and
investigating, and sometimes sati can arise as conditions allow. Not because
there is an idea of self who tries. Abhidhamma and practice are closely
connected. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand anatta.
Do not hesitate to ask again about what is not clear.
Nina.
	
33737

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:53am
Subject: Brahma viharas 4

Quoting from A. Sujin's Perfections:

<There should be no limits to mettå, because if we restrict it there may not
be mettå but lobha, attachment, which is akusala, not kusala.
If we only consider the outward appearance of our deeds, attachment and
loving-kindness seem to be similar. When we perform a good deed for the sake
of someone who is close to us, whom we respect and love, it seems that this
is motivated by kusala, by mettå. However, why can we not be kind in the
same way to someone else, no matter who he is? If there is true mettå it
should be exactly the same whether we perform an act of kindness to someone
who is close to us, with whom we are familiar, or to a person we are not
familiar with. If there is true mettå, if we want to develop the perfection
of mettå, we should not restrict mettå to particular persons. When we limit
mettå, we should investigate the characteristic of the citta at that moment,
we should know whether it is kusala citta or akusala citta.>
In her lecture A. Sujin emphasized that when there is metta, we have no
conceit and we are humble. We should be like a dustrag that people use for
wiping their feet. We can develop metta and humbleness of heart when others
speak to us in an unpleasant way. We read in A. Sujin¹s book on Metta:
<Softness, gentleness, pliancy and humbleness of heart, these qualities are
characteristics of metta. Sariputta was an example of humility. He compared
himself with a dustrag, an old rag without any value. He had no arrogance,
he was not conceited about it that he was one of the foremost disciples.
Even when others behaved badly towards him through body or speech he was
unaffected by it since he was an arahat. He had eradicated conceit and all
the other defilements and thus he was of perfect gentleness and humility.>
In her lecture A. Sujin referred to a question she asked us when we were in
the Jeta Grove, the place where the Buddha stayed for many rainy seasons.
There were many arahats together with the Buddha. A. Sujin asked us what we
were looking for in the Jeta Grove and people had different answers to her
question. She said that she was looking for a dustrag and that she would
like to become like a dustrag. There were many disciples in the Jeta Grove
who were like a dustrag. When we are like a dustrag we do not mind about
what is dirty or clean. We can gradually learn to be unaffected by pleasant
objects and unpleasant objects, by gain and loss, praise and blame. We can
learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of dana, we wish
others to be free from danger.
A. Sujin said that when one is with a friend one is safe from danger.
We still have the latent tendency of aversion. This is not eradicated until
the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. When we are
annoyed with someone else we keep on thinking about this and then we can see
that we have accumulated aversion. If we do not develop metta we cannot
subdue aversion and anger. When we develop right understanding of nama and
rupa we gradually come to know the characteristic of true metta when it
appears in daily life. We shall be less deluded about the outward appearance
of our deeds and not erroneously take akusala for kusala.
***
Nina
	
33738

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 0:49pm
Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4

Hello Nina,

"We can learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of 
dana, we wish
others to be free from danger."

If one is not offended, there is nothing to forgive. Other people's 
actions and speech belong to them. As in the Akkosa Sutta.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-002.html
If one is offended, then wouldn't that have to do with one's own 
conceit and self-view? And, so it seems to me, does the idea of 
judging that it is the other who needs forgiving. How does our 
forgiving someone help them to be free of danger? How does 
one 'learn to forgive'? 

I'm enjoying your series - but could you clarify that part for me 
please?

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
When we are like a dustrag we do not mind about
> what is dirty or clean. We can gradually learn to be unaffected by 
pleasant
> objects and unpleasant objects, by gain and loss, praise and 
blame. We can
> learn to forgive insults of others. Forgiving is a kind of dana, 
we wish
> others to be free from danger.

> Nina
	
33739

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 0:55pm
Subject: Re: Full Control !/Question

Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita 
There are these 5 kinds of Control:
Control by the code of the rules.
Control by aware guarding of the senses.
Control by understanding the mental forces.
Control by tolerance of the conditions.
Control by the effort of mental purification.

The path of Purification Vism 7
=========================

Chapter VII of The Path of Purification by Bhandantaacariya 
Buddhaghosha (trans. from the Pali by Bhikkhu Naanamoli) is 
entitled 'Description of Concentration - Six Recollections'. It is 
42 pages long (p.204 - p.246), and covers the Recollection of the 
Buddha, Recollection of the Dhamma, Recollection of the Sangha, 
Recollection of virtue, Recollection of generosity, and Recollection 
of deities.

I am not good at finding refs. in the Visuddhi Magga. 
Perhaps someone has located the list in their copy? If so, I would 
appreciate some direction - otherwise, Bhikkhu Samahita, may I 
trouble you for a more exact reference? On first browsing this 
chapter, I have been unable to find the '5 kinds of control', and 
in the 22 page Index of subjects and proper names (which gives 
precise references to chapter and paragraph numbers) the 
word "control" is not listed.

Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there can be control when 
there is no self to control? TIA.

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
	
33740

From: icarofranca <icarofranca@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 1:06pm
Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4

Hi christine!

At the Visuddgimagga, Chpt.1, we get Buddhaghosa's affirmation 
that the main end of Sila is the virtue of "No remorse", or absence 
of griefing about the decisions one can take or do about others or 
his/herself. The offender and the sufferer of offense are at the same 
ground for Sila and the main purpose of the true practicioner is the 
purity of mind.
The serious person that can take the Noble path learns forgiveness 
taming at first his own mind, never thinking "He abused me, he 
injured me, he robbed me" (Cf. The Dhammapada, Chpt.1) and 
cultivating such "no Remorse" state of mind, as described by 
Buddhaghosa.

Mettaya, Ícaro

P.S.: Your railroad maps helped me very much, Chris! I managed to 
link Darwin to Alice Springs and Adelaide...but the game urged me to 
go straight to Brisbane and I went to the ropes ...fortunately only
at the "Railroad tycoon"PC Game!
	
33741

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Full Control !/Question

In a message dated 6/8/2004 1:12:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
cforsyth@v... writes:
Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, all,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita 
There are these 5 kinds of Control:
Control by the code of the rules.
Control by aware guarding of the senses.
Control by understanding the mental forces.
Control by tolerance of the conditions.
Control by the effort of mental purification.

Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there can be control when 
there is no self to control? TIA.

metta and peace,
Christine
Hi Christine

The way I would understand this is... "control" here is not meant in a broad 
absolute sense; it is meant to illustrate specific things that help keep one 
on the right Path. I think it would be over-reaching to read this to mean that 
there is some sort of "self-control" operating among phenomena. After all, 
how could *Vinaya Rules* have any "control?" They are not even a Being, they 
are just abstract notions.

TG


	
33742

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:16pm
Subject: Re: Brahma viharas, 3

Hello Nina, and all

I will continue reading Nina's series and just adding my own 
comments off the top of my head. This is kind of like a journal for 
me, so please forgive the self-indulgence, all. And, as always, I 
hope you don't feel an obligation to respond, Nina. I know how busy 
you are. 

N:> When we cling to the importance of self there is conceit, the 
citta is
> rigid, not gentle, and there cannot be metta at the same time. When 
conceit
> arises it accompanies the citta rooted in attachment. When we attach
> importance to what others think about us, there is conceit. When we 
expect
> kind words from them but they do not speak kindly, we are 
disappointed and
> we have aversion. Then we can see that conceit conditions annoyance 
and
> aversion. 

Ph: Then there are the moments when people speak kindly in a way 
that fuels conceit. Yesterday I walked in the park, but instead of 
finding myself staying in the moment I was thinking about DSG and how 
I have been praised recently. For example, you said "very good 
discussion" about the thread with talks with RobK. I am communicating 
directly with the very person whose Dhamma books I am reading with 
great interest and she praised me! Now, that needn't give me conceit, 
it can give me confidence balanced with wisdom. Confidence balanced 
with wisdom is a point RobK stressed. But the conceit arises so 
naturally. 

N:> Through satipatthana we learn that life truly exists in one 
moment. When
> there are conditions for metta it arises, but it cannot last. 

Ph: "This too shall pass." I wonder who said that? Is it from the 
Bible? I find it pops into my mind a lot these days, not only in the 
unpleasant moments when I'm tired or irritable, but in the moments 
when life seems very blissful and I feel how healthy and energetic I 
am, how full of purpose. This too shall pass.

N:>There are
> bound to be many akusala cittas in between the moments of kusala 
cittas.

Ph: I have let go of the wrong understanding that I could fix my 
mind on wholesome mental states and keep them that way. I am very 
interested in the 4 right exertions, but now I see that when it is 
said that the monk maintains wholesome thoughts that have arisen, it 
is not talking about an act of control of thought like I thought when 
I first read i. Or do I see that? I have only begin to study and 
reflect, so it is too early to say. There may indeed be aspects of 
control within right view. I will keep my mind open to various 
viewpoints. 

Metta,
Phil
	
33743

From: Andrew <athel60@t...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:35pm
Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?)

Hi Rob Ep

A thought occurs to me that you have probably already considered. In 
case not, here goes: 

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" 
<epsteinrob@Y...> wrote:
> Where in the body of Sutta is the fourth factor of "practice in
> accordance with the Dhammma" defined as "satipatthana" and
> satipatthana only? [snip] i would very much
> like to see such a passage to read it for myself.

I recall an exchange between Victor and Ken H in which they were 
quoting sutta extracts to each other. However, each beleived that 
the other's sutta extract actually supported his own view.

It seems to me that the difference is not so much the words the 
suttas use, but how they are read. Do you read the words literally 
and give them their "natural" meaning (as far as this can be done one 
language removed from the original)? Do you need to read the words 
against a context (such as the nature of the physical audience)? Do 
you permit of meanings on only one level or several all at once?

These are real issues as evidenced by the suttas (discussed at length 
with Victor in another thread) about when teachings need to be drawn 
out and when they don't.

You know all this far better than I do and, indeed, have been 
discussing aspects with Ken H eg about "tortured" or unnecessarily 
convoluted interpretations.

If Ken H provides you with an "express" sutta reference that can only 
possibly be read in the way he proposes, well and good for him. If 
he cannot do so (and he has failed so far), can we determine that 
ipso facto he is wrong?

I must confess to being perplexed about the view (not necessarily 
yours) that "everything is in the suttas". I'm sure it is ... but 
how to draw the meaning out to my level of understanding is the more 
tricky part.

Sorry for rambling. I enjoy your posts very much and get a lot out 
of them.

With best wishes
Andrew
	
33744

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 4:38pm
Subject: Temperature for beginners

Hello all

I am starting to see the way mental factors come and go - there 
are moments of lobha and dosa that are quite easy to see.

However, I have no sense of understanding what rupa is really 
about. There is no need to worry about this. Understanding will come 
gradually, or won't. But let me mention temperature. I've found that 
this is something I've been becoming aware of, without intending to, 
maybe because it is so fluid. There is heat when I'm walking 
surrounded by concrete, then I go in the park and feel coolness from 
the trees. Heat when a train pulls into the station, then coolness 
returns when it pulls away. Just now, coolness from a breeze through 
my window.

Also, it is relatively easy to see how there is aversion or 
attachment arising with these moments of temperature change.

In the collection of the Buddha's teaching that I mentionned in 
talk with Rob K, kind of a Gideon-like thing that they leave in hotel 
rooms in Japan, there was something about when it's unpleasantly hot, 
thinking of having the cool wisdom of the Buddha, and when it's 
unpleasantly cold, thinking of having the warm compassion of the 
Buddha. Moments of aversion to temperature serving as a stimulus for 
consideration of the Buddha's qualities. Has anyone heard of that 
before? I don't really trust that book.

Metta,
Phil
	
33745

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Temperature for beginners and tea

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> However, I have no sense of understanding what rupa is really 
> about. There is no need to worry about this. Understanding will 
come 
> gradually, or won't. But let me mention temperature. I've found 
that 
> this is something I've been becoming aware of, without intending 
to, 
> maybe because it is so fluid. There is heat when I'm walking 
> surrounded by concrete, then I go in the park and feel coolness 
from 
> the trees. Heat when a train pulls into the station, then coolness 
> returns when it pulls away. Just now, coolness from a breeze 
through 
> my window.
> 
> Also, it is relatively easy to see how there is aversion or 
> attachment arising with these moments of temperature change.

=====

There is mind (nama) and there is stuff that is not mind (rupa); I 
hesitate to use the commonly applied term "matter" because rupa is 
much more than that.

At the moment, I am having a cup of tea. The word "tea" is a 
conventional reality; useful for exchanging concepts but having no 
ultimate reality of its own. If I want to break tea down into 
component parts, there are a few ways of doing it. Different ways of 
breaking tea down into component parts come from different 
perspectives. 

From the perspective of the chemist, there is water and a bunch of 
chemicals that I can't name. Clearly, breaking tea into water and 
chemicals that I can't name is of limited practical value.

From the perspective of the physicist, there are atoms with 
electrons, protons and neutrons. As I recall from my days studying 
elementry particle physics, the electrons, protons and neutrons can 
be further broken down into even smaller particles, the names of 
which I can't remember. Clearly, breaking tea into atomic or 
subatomic particles is of limited practical value.

From the Buddhist perspective, there are multiple rupas which impinge 
on the sense doors; there is a visible object which comes in through 
the eye door, there is temperature that comes in through the body-
sense door, there is hardness that comes in through the body-sense 
door, there is pressure that comes in through the body-sense door, 
there is flavour that comes in through the tongue door, there is 
odour that comes in through the nose door. In fact, the only sense 
door that this conventional reality called "tea" does not impinge 
upon is the ear door.

The Buddhist perspective is incredibly practical and useful if one's 
objective is to understand the nature of the mind (as opposed to 
brewing a cup of tea or creating an atomic bomb).

=====
> 
> In the collection of the Buddha's teaching that I mentionned in 
> talk with Rob K, kind of a Gideon-like thing that they leave in 
hotel 
> rooms in Japan, there was something about when it's unpleasantly 
hot, 
> thinking of having the cool wisdom of the Buddha, and when it's 
> unpleasantly cold, thinking of having the warm compassion of the 
> Buddha. Moments of aversion to temperature serving as a stimulus 
for 
> consideration of the Buddha's qualities. Has anyone heard of that 
> before? I don't really trust that book.

=====

Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha is good. Using everyday 
triggers, such has temperature, seems like as good an approach as 
any. As Rob K and many others on DSG are quick to point out, one 
doesn't need "formal meditation" as a trigger.

Metta,
Rob M :-)

PS: I will likely be coming to Tokyo for a few days at the end of the 
month. Is this where you live? Please reply off-list to my email 
address.
	
33746

From: Philip <plnao@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:22pm
Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 6 Worldly ambition

Phil: The next thing I was going to ask you about was ambition. 
(meaning worldly ambition) I?fm so consumed now by my interest in 
Dhamma. I mean, from morning until night. I almost think it?fs a
kind of mid-life crisis or something. A wholesome one, maybe.

Rob: It?fs because of accumulations. You can?ft stop right
effort coming up. Someone else could try and have right effort until 
the cows come home, and not have one bit of right effort. And have 
all wrong effort. Right effort is arising for you a lot. Because 
there are conditions there. You might even try to stop it, but you
can?ft. 

Phil: Can I give you an example? Yesterday morning when I woke 
up...you know the feeling when you wake up sometimes, and your mind 
leaps to try to figure out what day it is. You know, and if it?fs
a work day... 

Rob: It doesn?ft happen so often. It used to happen when I was 
young, after a night?fs drinking. 

Phil: So, yesterday I woke up and my mind starting jumping around to 
figure out what day it was, and I realized it was Wednesday, my day 
off, and I had this rising feeling of joy, which is such an intense 
moment of lobha, really. Right from the moment I woke up I had a kind 
of insight. 

Rob: Good. Did you know it was lobha?

Phil: Yeah. Immediately. 

Rob: It?fs samalobha though. Not asama. Not right. Sama means 
normal. Normal lobha. Asamalobha is the very bad type of lobha when 
you want to steal. But samalobha. We live by samalobha. If we
didn?ft have samalobha, we couldn?ft live life. 

Phil: And that?fs what accumulates rather than leading to 
transgressions, right? 

Rob: Yeah. It?fs just normal lobha. It?fs like you enjoy the
taste of good food. You enjoy the taste of cream in your coffee. 
Samalobha. It?fs not bad. I mean, it?fs akusala citta. And
it?fs bad in that sense. But it?fs not causing khamma
that?fs going 
to,you know, take you to hell or something. It?fs natural. You
can?ft stop it. 

Phil: And I can see how I could go too far in thinking about it. For 
example, I took the train the other day, we went to Kamakura, there 
was a beautiful sea, and I noticed a woman across the car from me 
gazing at the sea with a smile on her face...and I thought
?gthere is lobha there.?h

Rob: Yeah, but normal lobha. Normal lobha.

Phil: I know, but I find myself looking at other people?fs 
behaviour, and I find it?fs easier to...hopefully it?fs just
a mirror to my own. 

Rob: Yeah, yeah. If it?fs a mirror it?fs ok. I mean,
everything in life can help us, if we have right view. Can show us, 
the Dhamma is so true for everybody. 

Phil: So, as for this ?gcan it be stopped...?h

Rob: It never will.

Phil: Yeah, but I really have to, somehow, reconnect to my ambition 
as a writer. 

Rob: Is that samalobha do you think, or asamalobha? Your ambition to 
be a good writer. 

Phil: That would be asamalobha. That would be a more dangerous form.

Rob: No, that?fs samalobha, because...you know, before I met
Khun Sujin and Nina and that, I was a very serious student. I mean, 
when I met Khun Sujin I left my children in New Zealand, I went to a 
monastery. I?fd written to Nina about Khun Sujin?fs address
and had arranged to meet her, but I?fd also arranged for this 
monastery. I?fd stayed at this monastery a year, a year and half 
before for about 4 months. A vipassana temple, you know, where you 
don?ft talk to anyone, you just live like a monk. And I went back
to this temple, and they were happy. I was going to help out with 
teaching the foreigners, and I could stay there as long as I wanted. 
There was one westerner there, he?fd been there for 15 years, but
he didn?ft like talking to guests, and they wanted me to help out
with talking, about abhidhamma, and vipassana. And I was feeling 
very, you know, I?fm just like the Buddha. I left my child and
wife 
and everything,I?fm like this really genki (energetic, cheerfully
sincere in Japanese) Dhamma student. And I met Khun Sujin two weeks 
later. I went up to see her two weeks later in Bangkok, and she just 
talked about the present moment. I mean, she knew my teacher. They 
knew each other very well, actually. And she just said, ?gWell, 
seeing now.
Is it different than when you were in the temple? Or is it the same 
as now??h And in fact, I knew it was the same. But it
just...anyway, 
things happened, and I went back to the temple after a week or so of 
talking to Khun Sujin, and I just couldn?ft do it anymore. I
couldn?ft have the same enthusiasm. And I went to Hong Kong and 
stayed with Sarah and Jon for a couple of weeks or so on. Then I went 
back to New Zealand, to my family. And things happened. And I was 
unemployed. I?fd been unemployed for awhile, and the idea of
having a career was heretical to my thinking, because I thought real 
dhamma students live in caves, or live in log cabins. I had a little 
caravan type thing up in the bush, and I used to live half the time 
there, half the time with my family. But I kept corresponding with 
Nina and going back to Thailand to see Khun Sujin. Eventually I went 
back to university. I realized the Dhamma is everywhere, all the 
time. Got a Master?fs Degree. And now I?fm an
associate-professor at 
a university. I mean, if I hadn?ft met Khun Sujin, I?fd
probably be living in a log cabin, thinking that I had to do that to 
be a real serious Dhamma student. 
Now I don?ft feel that anymore. I feel I?fm just as serious
as I ever was.

Phil: And it?fs more real.

Rob: Probably there?fs more lobha in my life. But the
understanding is still there. I feel that the understanding?fs
still there. When you read the scriptures, like in the Dhammapada, 
the Buddha says?gIf this person had become a monk when he was 25,
he 
would be an Arahat, or if he?fd stayed as a lay person but
listened to the Dhamma from when he was 25 he would have been 
Anagami, and he would have been the richest man in all of India or 
something. You see these people,they?fre not unsuccessful, the
lay 
people who listen to Buddhism, they?fre not unsuccessful people, 
generally. They can be quite ambitious.
	
33747

From: robmoult <rob.moult@j...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K pt. 6 Worldly ambition

Hi Phil,

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" <plnao@j...> wrote:
> 
> Phil: The next thing I was going to ask you about was ambition. 
> (meaning worldly ambition) I?fm so consumed now by my interest in 
> Dhamma. I mean, from morning until night. I almost think it?fs a
> kind of mid-life crisis or something. A wholesome one, maybe.

The following was summarized from Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda's 
booklet, "Is it Wrong to be Ambitious?"

Advice for the Laymen
=====================
Buddhism is misinterpreted and misunderstood by many people. The 
Buddha clearly recognized two classes of people: those who had 
renounced the world and those who chose to follow the life of 
householders. Certain precepts and observances that the Buddha 
prescribed are specifically meant for those who have renounced the 
worldly life. Some people have mixed these up with the precepts meant 
for householders. For those who have renounced the worldly life, 
there is one way to develop selfless ambition. For those who are 
still attached to the world as householders, there is another way. 
For instance, during the Buddha's time, many rich people who enjoyed 
their mundane pleasures approached the Buddha, and told Him that it 
was difficult for them to renounce the world. They had worldly 
commitments, family obligations and many other duties to fulfill. 
They requested the Buddha to lay down a suitable religious way of 
life for them to practice. The Buddha did not ridicule them; for He 
knew that not everyone was so ready to give up worldly pleasures.

The Teacher who had renounced absolutely everything for His own 
Enlightenment knew the nature of worldly attachment. Renunciation 
must only be undertaken when realization appears in the mind. 
Otherwise, there will be feelings of disappointment or frustration. 
Those who make a premature renunciation may return to the lay life. 
So we have to wait until such realization appears in our mind.

The Buddha's Advice for Householders
====================================
The first happiness atthi-sukha is to enjoy the economic security of 
wealth acquired by just and righteous means; the second bhoga-sukha 
is spending that wealth liberally on oneself, one's family, friends 
and relatives, and on meritorious deeds; the third anana-sukha is to 
be free from debts; the fourth happiness anavajja-sukha is to live a 
faultless and pure and blameless life committing no evil in thought, 
word or deed. When you come to know that you have earned something 
honestly, the happiness that you gain through your accumulated wealth 
develops confidence in the household life. Some people who go on 
earning and accumulating wealth neither experience happiness nor use 
wealth in a proper way. According to the Buddha, we can experience 
worldly happiness by using what we have earned in a reasonable way, 
following basic religious principles. It is not correct to say that 
Buddhists should not experience worldly happiness. Certain harmless 
cultural amusements and entertainments relax the mind and help reduce 
tension. Human emotions can be satisfied without disturbing the peace 
and happiness of others. Many cultural performances in Asia actually 
developed through the influence of Buddhism.

Middle Path
===========
The Buddha was a most active and energetic religious teacher. He 
advised people to use their skill and knowledge in their daily life. 
A Buddhist should not lead a lazy and easy life and blame it on 
Buddhism for any of his / her failures. A good Buddhist has the 
quality of V´riya - energy. Buddhists must constantly strive for 
perfection. They must not delay doing something by finding excuses 
like it is too hot or it is too cold. The Buddha's advice to lay 
people was not to go to either extremes of sensual pleasure or self-
torture to practice a religion. Everyone must try to lead a happy, 
harmless and peaceful life. Buddhism is known as the Middle Path.

You find it difficult to maintain absolute honesty, kindness and 
tolerance. It is also true that very few can become perfect religious 
persons in the household life. Your responsibilities, obligations and 
duties can disturb your mind. They provoke you to do certain things 
that go against your conscience. If you try to be a religious fanatic 
as a layperson, your attitude may not appeal to your family members, 
friends and others. If you follow Buddhist rules that are meant 
specifically for monks who lead a monastic life, your associates may 
feel embarrassed; and they may regard you as a nuisance or an 
eccentric. Therefore, try to lead a sensible life by observing 
reasonable religious principles. This is how you avoid becoming a 
religious fanatic. If you go to extremes, not only will people laugh 
at you, they will also get a wrong idea of what Buddhism teaches. If 
you are not fanatical, you can live and work even with other 
religionists. The Buddha has pointed out that you must know your 
limit in everything. Try to practice religious principles that are 
universally accepted. As lay Buddhists, your duty is to lead a normal 
religious life while fulfilling your family obligations. If you 
neglect your responsibilities towards your family, you may experience 
problems. Others may think of you as a useless person.

You must know how to adjust your way of life to the country and 
society you live in without going against the important cultural and 
traditional practices of the majority, if they are harmless. You 
should also co-operate with others without behaving as if your 
religion is the only one that has the right to exist. Buddhism is a 
religion of freedom. It respects the freedom of other religions. Your 
commonsense and understanding are important in practicing a religion.

Nature of Ambition
==================
Every person entertains some kind of ambition. When we refer to the 
Buddha, He too had an ambition that was implanted in His mind long 
ago. He continued to develop that ambition, life after life, until He 
achieved what He wanted. But this ambition is best described as an 
aspiration. When we read the Buddha's discourses, we can understand 
how He had worked to reach the goal He aspired to. He has revealed 
this to us by referring to previous birth stories. He also explained 
the nature of the great virtues and discipline that He had to 
cultivate to achieve His aspiration.

When we compare our ambition with the Buddha's aspiration we can see 
a vast difference. This is because our ambition is primarily based on 
desire and anxiety bound to worldly pleasure. On the other hand, the 
Buddha's aspiration was to free Himself from selfishness in order to 
serve others. We develop our ambition by disturbing another's 
happiness. That is how we create enormous problems and misery in this 
world. We are willing to do any kind of evil or wicked deed for our 
own pleasure. From the Buddhist point of view, this kind of selfish 
ambition is not justifiable.

What we should constantly strive to do is to develop the higher kind 
of ambition by working very hard to obtain freedom, happiness and 
liberation from our existing worldly problems. This ambition is 
harmless and reasonable. However, this is not the final goal: we must 
not be satisfied with these temporary mundane ambitions. Our ultimate 
goal should be freedom from suffering - Nirvana, where all ambitions 
cease and the reality of existence seen.

Rendering Service to Others
===========================
While working for our own happiness, freedom and salvation, we have 
to render some service for the benefit and happiness of others. The 
Buddha adopted this type of aspiration with deep conviction and 
boundless compassion. Whilst working for His own salvation, He served 
others in every possible way. He continued His service to humanity by 
sacrificing His sensual pleasures, by cultivating all the good 
qualities and virtues and by eradicating evil thoughts to maintain 
purity in the mind. This is the way He developed His selfless 
ambition to gain His enlightenment.

He never cultivated it for His own benefit but for the welfare and 
liberation of every living being. He developed boundless compassion 
and wisdom and expressed them by word and deed. But our ambitions, 
which are selfish in nature, can create much misery. Therefore, we 
have to learn how to direct our ambitions in such a way as to relieve 
the suffering of others. Such ambitions are wholesome because they 
contribute to the greater good of mankind.

Metta,
Rob M :-)
	
33748

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:25pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 5 Straight to deep Dhamma?

Hello Philip,
Thank you. 
I highlight what I like:
op 08-06-2004 12:30 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:
R: But if you don't get to the heart of the
> Dhamma, about the present moment, about the conditionality, about the
> matter, about the six sense doors, you might as well teach those
> other philosophies.
and: 

R: I mean, in my class I talk immediately, I walk about
> Buddhism. What is real? What is happening now? What is reality now?
> And they say ?gah, I'fm in this room and I say, you
> know ?gno, what 
> is absolutely real? Seeing, hearing, tasting, touch. Just straight
> from the beginning. And the people that have the tendency, the
> ability to understand it start to get interested, and the ones who
> don't, don't. 
> Rob: Teaching the deep Dhamma. I mean you can hear that sort of thing
> in many different philosophies. I mean, Khun Sujin sometimes gets
> criticized in Thailand because she is always straight to the
> deepest part of the Dhamma, about annata, about realities.... The Buddha said
> the other teachers teach metta, they teach compassion, they teach
> right view, khamma and vipaka to a certain degree. But it's only
> the Buddha that teaches annata. And human life is short. So those who
> have the ability to understand the deep parts, she wants to help
> them. 
N: I am studying now the Brahma viharas, but I find that Kh Sujin helps so
much with the practice of them together with satipatthana. She reminds: they
are cetasikas, non self. At the same time we learn to apply them. There is
nothing dry and technical about nama and rupa, and anatta. There is a
balance between understanding ultimate realities and our social life. A
basic understanding of anatta is essential for true, sincere friendship,
Lodewijk stressed. That is what we feel when meeting Kh Sujin in Thailand:
here is the association with the right people, and this is an important
condition to develop understanding leading to the elimination of
defilements. Lodewijk and I spoke about people being so oppressed by their
clinging, their desire going on and on without end, and Lodewijk said that
association with the right person is so important. What kind of friends do
they have, they should ask themselves. Kh Sujin gives many sound, helpful
advices to people who come to her with their problems. She explains anatta
but there is always the connection with daily life.
Nina.
	
33749

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:25pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa

Hi Agrios,
I have the impression that this is just a misunderstanding and that this can
be cleared, like all misunderstandings people may have about the works of
our greatest commentator. Can I do something?
Nina. 
op 08-06-2004 15:09 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...:

> I am cutting out whole Buddhaghosa part.
> Buddhaghosa wrote some books, done some good job and some bad. Naturally.
	
33750

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 9:25pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and calm

Hi Jon, Sarah, Howard, Sukin,
op 08-06-2004 10:12 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:> ....
> S: Certainly my eye’ hasn’t seen any discomfort’
N: I did not keep the post but remember: who is concentrated sees things as
they really are. Concentration as proximate cause. I thought of it today.
When I read the word samadhi, concentration, I know that it often has the
meaning of calm. I am not so inclined to think of trying and trying with all
might to focus on one object.
Suppose I have excruciating doubts or I am in agony with worries, then at
such moments there is no calm, no understanding. We can check. But we can
see worry, doubt, calm and understanding as momentary, they are, aren't
they? By conditions awareness and understanding can arise and there is also
calm, for a very short moment. There can be more moments of calmand
understanding after that, arising again and again, there may be moments with
reflection and awareness, and many things of the teachings may become
clearer by understanding. However, no forcing here, it is all by
conditions, and no rules.
I do not know whether this is helpful,
Nina.
	
33751

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:39pm
Subject: Re: Full Control !/Question

Hi friend Christine:

> I am not good at finding refs. in the Visuddhi Magga. 

Purification Vism 7 = Vism [7] = side 7 in pali version.
Is shown on middle of pages in square brackets [7] in all
english versions. It's in chapter I about morality.

For referencing, which admittedly is somewhat complex:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/abbrev.html#suttaref


> Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there 
> can be control when there is no self to control? 

Activity can be controlled!
Mental Action can be controlled!
Verbal Action can be controlled!
Bodily Action can be controlled!

Who controls ? Nobody controls !
Morality restrains...
Understanding restrains...
Rules restrains...
Tolerance restrains...
Purificating effort restrains...
These immaterial mental & selfless 
phenomena are the cause of control!!
Like the programs in a computer
control the behaviour of the computer
yet there is no self or person 'inside'
the programs ... nor the computer ;-)

: - ]
	
33752

From: Bhikkhu Samahita <bhikkhu_samahita@y...> 
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004 10:45pm
Subject: Abstract notions = concepts !

>They are not even a Being, they are just abstract notions.

Well noted! Sadhu!

All phenomena are Abstract Notions = Mental States ...
Since Mind is the primary projector of all states ...
Whether internal or external!
Whether material or immaterial!
Whether physical or mental!
Whether past, present or future!

: - ]
	
33753

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 2:50am
Subject: Re: Full Control !/Question

Dear Bhante and TG,

Thank you for your replies which I found very helpful. I guess the 
language used isn't critical - it's the Right Understanding of 
anatta at all times that is.

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" 
<bhikkhu_samahita@y...> wrote:
> Hi friend Christine:
> 
> > I am not good at finding refs. in the Visuddhi Magga. 
> 
> Purification Vism 7 = Vism [7] = side 7 in pali version.
> Is shown on middle of pages in square brackets [7] in all
> english versions. It's in chapter I about morality.
> 
> For referencing, which admittedly is somewhat complex:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/abbrev.html#suttaref
> 
> 
> > Or, alternatively, can someone explain how there 
> > can be control when there is no self to control? 
> 
> Activity can be controlled!
> Mental Action can be controlled!
> Verbal Action can be controlled!
> Bodily Action can be controlled!
> 
> Who controls ? Nobody controls !
> Morality restrains...
> Understanding restrains...
> Rules restrains...
> Tolerance restrains...
> Purificating effort restrains...
> These immaterial mental & selfless 
> phenomena are the cause of control!!
> Like the programs in a computer
> control the behaviour of the computer
> yet there is no self or person 'inside'
> the programs ... nor the computer ;-)
> 
> : - ]
-----------------
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: 
> The way I would understand this is... "control" here is not meant 
in a broad 
> absolute sense; it is meant to illustrate specific things that 
help keep one 
> on the right Path. I think it would be over-reaching to read this 
to mean that 
> there is some sort of "self-control" operating among phenomena. 
After all, 
> how could *Vinaya Rules* have any "control?" They are not even a 
Being, they 
> are just abstract notions.
> 
> TG
	
33754

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 3:05am
Subject: Re: Brahma viharas 4

Hello Icaro,

Thank you for this reply. No remorse sounds good to me. :-)

If the soulless pc program "Railroad Tycoon" thinks there is a 
railroad from the Northern Territory directly East into Queensland 
without travelling South then East then North then it clearly has 
Wrong View. I think the only thing to do is to get into the Source 
Code and make some Compassionate Adjustments. 

metta and peace,
Christine
---The trouble is that you think you have time---


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 
<icarofranca@y...> wrote:
> Hi christine!
> 
> At the Visuddgimagga, Chpt.1, we get Buddhaghosa's affirmation 
> that the main end of Sila is the virtue of "No remorse", or 
absence 
> of griefing about the decisions one can take or do about others or 
> his/herself. The offender and the sufferer of offense are at the 
same 
> ground for Sila and the main purpose of the true practicioner is 
the 
> purity of mind.
> The serious person that can take the Noble path learns 
forgiveness 
> taming at first his own mind, never thinking "He abused me, he 
> injured me, he robbed me" (Cf. The Dhammapada, Chpt.1) and 
> cultivating such "no Remorse" state of mind, as described by 
> Buddhaghosa.
> 
> Mettaya, Ícaro
> 
> P.S.: Your railroad maps helped me very much, Chris! I managed 
to 
> link Darwin to Alice Springs and Adelaide...but the game urged me 
to 
> go straight to Brisbane and I went to the ropes ...fortunately only
> at the "Railroad tycoon"PC Game!
	
33755

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004 1:05am
Subject: My Understanding of the Sankhitta Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63)

Hi, all -

I've come across the following sutta which seems to address the 
practice of the divine abidings in a rather freshly formulated way. I insert at 
points my understanding of what is being discussed.



Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63



Sankhitta Sutta



In Brief 
(Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration)

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 
Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers 
to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of 
mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of 
jhana. Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having 
bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the 
Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in 
brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone 
in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "But it is in just this way that 
some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think 
they should tag along right behind me." "May the Blessed One teach me the 
Dhamma in brief! May the One Well-gone teach me the Dhamma in brief! It may well be 
that I will understand the Blessed One's words. It may well be that I will 
become an heir to the Blessed One's words." "Then, monk, you should train 
yourself thus: 'My mind will be established inwardly, well-composed. No evil, 
unskillful qualities, once they have arisen, will remain consuming the mind.' That's 
how you should train yourself.
--------------------------------------
Howard:
The foregoing calls for an initial establishment of calm and 
wholesomeness (kusala).
----------------------------------------
"Then you should train yourself thus: 'Good-will, as my awareness-release, 
will be developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a 
grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken.' That's how you should train 
yourself.
----------------------------------------
Howard:
Then establishing a mind based in metta
------------------------------------------
When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop 
this concentration